NewgonWiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-05T16:11:09Z

Didaskalosmrm: /* Articles to make */

==Mark says Hello.==
Here we are 11/1, the beginning (more or less) of the Celtic New Year.
The first few projects I aim to tackle are:
1 A page for Plato's Phaedros, onto which to dump links to my four language text and my recordings thereof.
2 A page currently listed as the top of the MOST WANTED page list.[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 02:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
3 A Homer page. Not because I've ever been the least bit excited by HOMER's account of Ganymede, but because it is the FIRST account of Ganymede, and because Homer is the kind of thing disaffected 21st Century boys are likely to like.
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Mark has thoughts.==
As I survey the new Newgon, I find myself struck by two thoughts. By and large I'm impressed by the professionalism, and the need to operate, at a less than inflammatory level, as an information center. Aware of the activities of the more inflammatory types, but safely distant from them. Good Job, Newgon!

But.

There's nothing here that would be fun for boys.
("If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" is what we said in the Boy Scouts.)

And, there's nothing here but yuck-material that would make conservatives not want to have anything to do with Newgon. ;(
Newgon has done good work in LISTING Uhler, GAG, Shoeonhead, Blaire White, James Lindsay, Alaric Naude, etc.
All these are people I count friends and allies.
But Newgon has done precious little about helping anyone BECOME the sort of person with whom these people could have a conversation.
So: I dub myself the Newgon conservative-whisperer. The performance art game is to convince the conservatives that I'm a both an undercover pedo-mole who is infiltrating Newgon to destroy it, out of deeply-held conservative principles, AND ALSO a doubleplusgood deep-cover pedo-agent who is infiltrating the conservative movement to weaken its resistance to PedoSchwing2025. While simultaneously convincing Newgon that I'm a baby-boy-blue-blooded normality-destroying pedo-agent cozying up to conservatives to advance our nefarious "pedo-normalization" agenda, and hoping that the disgusting lust-monkeys of Newgon don't catch on that in posting material like Plato's Phaedros, I'm poisoning their joy in boy-love, and working to bring down their movement, UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

It's the EUMOLPOS CATASTROPHE writ large, in political terms, you see.

Oh shit, that's another page I have to make now. ;(
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Articles to make==
*Wanted Article Piece
*Phaedros
*DUL
*Eumolpos Catastrophe
*Opus Generis ( all UD material really)
*OGAGOTAT
*Brintonization (of conversion therapy, a subcategory of initiation fear.)

==Rufo's LOGOS project==
Dunno if anything good will come of this. But I'm not hiding the ball as to my agenda. Deeply committed to using traditional poetry, and WHATEVER CLOWNERY NECESSARY to facilitate the conversation between conservatives & BL's.
If this means I'm running away to join the Conservative Circus in Sarasota, so be it. ;)
[https://twitter.com/markmin73436714/status/1720655328113750131 Rufo calls for applications for LOGOS visibility projects. Didaskalos is at the head of the line!]

Talk:William Percy

2023-11-05T05:50:27Z

Didaskalosmrm: Created page with "==Fate of the William A Percy website== It was down after WAP's death; then up; now seems to be down. Ought it to be archived here? [https://web.archive.org/web/20220407034040/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williamapercy.com williamapercy.com available via wayback machine] ~~~~"

==Fate of the William A Percy website==

It was down after WAP's death; then up; now seems to be down. Ought it to be archived here?

[https://web.archive.org/web/20220407034040/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williamapercy.com williamapercy.com available via wayback machine]

[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-04T04:20:02Z

Didaskalosmrm: /* Rufo's LOGOS project */

==Mark says Hello.==
Here we are 11/1, the beginning (more or less) of the Celtic New Year.
The first few projects I aim to tackle are:
1 A page for Plato's Phaedros, onto which to dump links to my four language text and my recordings thereof.
2 A page currently listed as the top of the MOST WANTED page list.[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 02:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
3 A Homer page. Not because I've ever been the least bit excited by HOMER's account of Ganymede, but because it is the FIRST account of Ganymede, and because Homer is the kind of thing disaffected 21st Century boys are likely to like.
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Mark has thoughts.==
As I survey the new Newgon, I find myself struck by two thoughts. By and large I'm impressed by the professionalism, and the need to operate, at a less than inflammatory level, as an information center. Aware of the activities of the more inflammatory types, but safely distant from them. Good Job, Newgon!

But.

There's nothing here that would be fun for boys.
("If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" is what we said in the Boy Scouts.)

And, there's nothing here but yuck-material that would make conservatives not want to have anything to do with Newgon. ;(
Newgon has done good work in LISTING Uhler, GAG, Shoeonhead, Blaire White, James Lindsay, Alaric Naude, etc.
All these are people I count friends and allies.
But Newgon has done precious little about helping anyone BECOME the sort of person with whom these people could have a conversation.
So: I dub myself the Newgon conservative-whisperer. The performance art game is to convince the conservatives that I'm a both an undercover pedo-mole who is infiltrating Newgon to destroy it, out of deeply-held conservative principles, AND ALSO a doubleplusgood deep-cover pedo-agent who is infiltrating the conservative movement to weaken its resistance to PedoSchwing2025. While simultaneously convincing Newgon that I'm a baby-boy-blue-blooded normality-destroying pedo-agent cozying up to conservatives to advance our nefarious "pedo-normalization" agenda, and hoping that the disgusting lust-monkeys of Newgon don't catch on that in posting material like Plato's Phaedros, I'm poisoning their joy in boy-love, and working to bring down their movement, UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

It's the EUMOLPOS CATASTROPHE writ large, in political terms, you see.

Oh shit, that's another page I have to make now. ;(
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Articles to make==
Wanted Article Piece
Phaedros
DUL
Eumolpos Catastrophe
Opus Generis all UD material really
OGAGOTAT

==Rufo's LOGOS project==
Dunno if anything good will come of this. But I'm not hiding the ball as to my agenda. Deeply committed to using traditional poetry, and WHATEVER CLOWNERY NECESSARY to facilitate the conversation between conservatives & BL's.
If this means I'm running away to join the Conservative Circus in Sarasota, so be it. ;)
[https://twitter.com/markmin73436714/status/1720655328113750131 Rufo calls for applications for LOGOS visibility projects. Didaskalos is at the head of the line!]

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-04T04:19:15Z

Didaskalosmrm: /* Rufo's LOGOS project */

==Mark says Hello.==
Here we are 11/1, the beginning (more or less) of the Celtic New Year.
The first few projects I aim to tackle are:
1 A page for Plato's Phaedros, onto which to dump links to my four language text and my recordings thereof.
2 A page currently listed as the top of the MOST WANTED page list.[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 02:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
3 A Homer page. Not because I've ever been the least bit excited by HOMER's account of Ganymede, but because it is the FIRST account of Ganymede, and because Homer is the kind of thing disaffected 21st Century boys are likely to like.
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Mark has thoughts.==
As I survey the new Newgon, I find myself struck by two thoughts. By and large I'm impressed by the professionalism, and the need to operate, at a less than inflammatory level, as an information center. Aware of the activities of the more inflammatory types, but safely distant from them. Good Job, Newgon!

But.

There's nothing here that would be fun for boys.
("If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" is what we said in the Boy Scouts.)

And, there's nothing here but yuck-material that would make conservatives not want to have anything to do with Newgon. ;(
Newgon has done good work in LISTING Uhler, GAG, Shoeonhead, Blaire White, James Lindsay, Alaric Naude, etc.
All these are people I count friends and allies.
But Newgon has done precious little about helping anyone BECOME the sort of person with whom these people could have a conversation.
So: I dub myself the Newgon conservative-whisperer. The performance art game is to convince the conservatives that I'm a both an undercover pedo-mole who is infiltrating Newgon to destroy it, out of deeply-held conservative principles, AND ALSO a doubleplusgood deep-cover pedo-agent who is infiltrating the conservative movement to weaken its resistance to PedoSchwing2025. While simultaneously convincing Newgon that I'm a baby-boy-blue-blooded normality-destroying pedo-agent cozying up to conservatives to advance our nefarious "pedo-normalization" agenda, and hoping that the disgusting lust-monkeys of Newgon don't catch on that in posting material like Plato's Phaedros, I'm poisoning their joy in boy-love, and working to bring down their movement, UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

It's the EUMOLPOS CATASTROPHE writ large, in political terms, you see.

Oh shit, that's another page I have to make now. ;(
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Articles to make==
Wanted Article Piece
Phaedros
DUL
Eumolpos Catastrophe
Opus Generis all UD material really
OGAGOTAT

==Rufo's LOGOS project==
Dunno if anything good will come of this. But I'm not hiding the ball as to my agenda. Deeply committed to using facilitating the conversations between conservatives & BL's.
If this means I'm running away to join the Conservative Circus in Sarasota, so be it. ;)
[https://twitter.com/markmin73436714/status/1720655328113750131 Rufo calls for applications for LOGOS visibility projects. Didaskalos is at the head of the line!]

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-04T04:17:48Z

Didaskalosmrm: /* Articles to make */

==Mark says Hello.==
Here we are 11/1, the beginning (more or less) of the Celtic New Year.
The first few projects I aim to tackle are:
1 A page for Plato's Phaedros, onto which to dump links to my four language text and my recordings thereof.
2 A page currently listed as the top of the MOST WANTED page list.[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 02:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
3 A Homer page. Not because I've ever been the least bit excited by HOMER's account of Ganymede, but because it is the FIRST account of Ganymede, and because Homer is the kind of thing disaffected 21st Century boys are likely to like.
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Mark has thoughts.==
As I survey the new Newgon, I find myself struck by two thoughts. By and large I'm impressed by the professionalism, and the need to operate, at a less than inflammatory level, as an information center. Aware of the activities of the more inflammatory types, but safely distant from them. Good Job, Newgon!

But.

There's nothing here that would be fun for boys.
("If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" is what we said in the Boy Scouts.)

And, there's nothing here but yuck-material that would make conservatives not want to have anything to do with Newgon. ;(
Newgon has done good work in LISTING Uhler, GAG, Shoeonhead, Blaire White, James Lindsay, Alaric Naude, etc.
All these are people I count friends and allies.
But Newgon has done precious little about helping anyone BECOME the sort of person with whom these people could have a conversation.
So: I dub myself the Newgon conservative-whisperer. The performance art game is to convince the conservatives that I'm a both an undercover pedo-mole who is infiltrating Newgon to destroy it, out of deeply-held conservative principles, AND ALSO a doubleplusgood deep-cover pedo-agent who is infiltrating the conservative movement to weaken its resistance to PedoSchwing2025. While simultaneously convincing Newgon that I'm a baby-boy-blue-blooded normality-destroying pedo-agent cozying up to conservatives to advance our nefarious "pedo-normalization" agenda, and hoping that the disgusting lust-monkeys of Newgon don't catch on that in posting material like Plato's Phaedros, I'm poisoning their joy in boy-love, and working to bring down their movement, UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

It's the EUMOLPOS CATASTROPHE writ large, in political terms, you see.

Oh shit, that's another page I have to make now. ;(
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Articles to make==
Wanted Article Piece
Phaedros
DUL
Eumolpos Catastrophe
Opus Generis all UD material really
OGAGOTAT

==Rufo's LOGOS project==
Dunno if anything good will come of this. But I'm not hiding the ball as to my agenda. Deeply committed to using facilitating the conversations between conservatives & BL's.
https://twitter.com/markmin73436714/status/1720655328113750131

MAPocalypse

2023-11-03T05:33:10Z

Didaskalosmrm:

__NOTOC__{{Template:Adj}}The '''"MAPocalypse"''' or in layman's terms, the '''normalization of pedophilia''' refers to a predicted rapid series of events bringing about [[critical mass]] for the acceptance of [[Minor Attracted Person|Minor Attracted People]] as a "valid" identity. Various prophecies have been made since roughly the 1990s - usually starting off among "moral majority" conservatives, sometimes infecting liberal-progressive and professional circles in the form of paranoia concerning supposed MAP > LGBT entryism, "pedophilia advocacy" in the [[Rind et al|sciences]], and other strategies. These prophecies follow the pattern of long-standing fears centering on the "recruitment" of youths within the early Gay Movement.

The most commonly suggested time for this event is the 2020s, 2030s and following decades, in which MAPs are projected to become more visible in the mainstream media/public conscience, becoming a contentious topic in and of their own right. In some countries, parliamentarians occasionally support the right of minors to [[consent]] to sex, and to refuse it.<ref name="montero">[https://www.outono.net/elentir/2022/09/22/a-spanish-minister-says-children-can-have-sexual-relations-with-whoever-they-want/ Irene Montero, Spanish politician makes pro-consent type comments]</ref> Brazil and Peru are two South American countries in which there has been a largely unbroken general trend towards reducing the [[Age of Consent]].

==Predictions past and present==

As the LGBT movement gained ground in the post-AIDS [[assimilationism|assimilationist]] struggles of the 80s and 90s, the right's focus moved away from recruitment of youth among the gay movement, to the threat of "pedophilia" - a "new evil" or "folk devil". This later infected the mainstream, as memories of [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|LGBT activism's history with MAPs]] faded. Predictions of a new dawn for the "normalization of pedophilia" among American Conservatives increased markedly in velocity from the mid-late 10s, as [[Virtuous Pedophiles]] gained exposure in the liberal media and pedophile conspiracy theories ushered in the culture wars of the Trump Era:

*'''1970s-90s:''' Various predictions from [[moral entrepreneur]]s such as [[Judith Reisman]] concerning the aims of the [[Alfred Kinsey|Kinsey]] Institute. "As early as 1977, author Judith A. Reisman says she learned of the existence of an "international academic pedophile movement" influenced by Kinsey's teachings."<ref name="come">[http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/ca-wt-04-19-02/ Endorsement of adult-child sex on rise]</ref>
*"In '''1994''', as gay freedom was becoming a mainstream cause, the head of the right-leaning Rutherford Institute claimed that "the logical implication of American acceptance of homosexuality is the acceptance of pedophilia as simply another form of 'sexual orientation.'""<ref name="reason">[https://reason.com/2023/01/14/a-modern-history-of-groomer-politics/ Reason: A Modern History of 'Groomer' Politics]</ref>
*'''1995:''' ""I started saying seven years ago [in 1995] that there was a movement to make pedophilia an alternative lifestyle, and my colleagues looked at me like I was crazy," said Mrs. Reeves, who founded MASA after discovering that a relative had been sexually abused. "Here we are seven years later and that is exactly what's happening.""<ref name="come" />
*'''2002:''' "Some people view children as the next sexual frontier" ([[Stephanie Dallam]], quoted in Washington Times<ref>[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2002/apr/19/20020419-042059-4124r/ Washington Times quotes Stephanie Dallam RN]</ref>)
*"In '''2004''', with gay marriage a central issue in the year's elections, the head of Liberty Counsel wrote that "Once the same-sex marriage barrier is broken, a wide range of sexual [[paraphilia]] rights are sure to follow, including, but not limited to, pedophilia.""<ref name="reason" />
*'''2011:''' "Normalizing the "last taboo" Pedophilia - sex between adults and children - is the goal of a conference in Baltimore" (Beliefnet<ref>[https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/news/2011/08/academic-conference-seeks-to-normalize-pedophilia Beliefnet on B4U-ACT conference]</ref>)
*'''2014:''' "Using the same tactics used by “gay” rights activists, pedophiles have begun to seek similar status arguing their desire for children is a sexual orientation no different than heterosexual or homosexuals."<ref>[https://www.eurochicago.com/2012/04/pedophiles-want-same-rights-as-homosexuals/ Jack Minor's piece] - originally published for ''Northern Colorado Gazette''</ref>
*'''2014:''' "Once considered taboo, psychologists are beginning to walk down the same path LGBT activists established more than 50 years ago, insisting that pedophilia is an inborn "sexual orientation," not a learned sexual behavior."<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/2014/01/pedophilia-the-next-sexual-rights-revolution/ WND: Pedophilia the next 'sexual-rights' revolution?]</ref>
*'''2015/6''': "What’s going to happen with that is that ultimately things like bestiality is going to be approved and especially pedophilia,” [...] “Because like I said, how the progressives are attacking these issues in multiple ways. I really predict that in the next few years even pedophilia is going to be more and more accepted because two things are happening. One, we are saying any sexual urge is valid. So pedophilia, why is that any different than any other form of love? Love is love, right?" (Jenna Ellis - Conservative Policy figurehead<ref>[https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/15/politics/jenna-ellis-kfile/ Jenna Ellis]</ref>)
*'''2019:''' "Pedophilia: The Next Frontier for Leftist Acceptance Ideology" (American ''Spectator''<ref>[https://spectator.org/pedophilia-the-next-frontier-for-leftist-acceptance-ideology/ American Spectator: Next frontier for leftist ideology]</ref>)
*'''2020:''' "Q-Anon and other Trump-aligned movements serve as a perfect foil to begin turning universal moral opposition to abusing kids into another controlled culture war conflict the right is bound to lose." (National Justice - anti-Jewish publisher<ref>[https://national-justice.com/opinion-and-analysis/authoritarians-and-jews-push-normalize-pedophilia Authoritarians and Jews: The Push to Normalize Pedophilia]</ref>)
*'''2023:''' "Everyone knows that pedophilia is the next deviant behavior the Left will seek to normalize. Everyone knows it’s coming. It’s the next progression from birth control to the sexual revolution to normalization of homosexuality to gay marriage to transgenderism. It’s pedophilia and then it’s bestiality after that."<ref>[https://thehayride.com/2023/04/what-marjorie-taylor-greene-did-to-the-democrats-yesterday-was-amazing/ The Hayride: What Marjorie Taylor Greene Did To The Democrats Yesterday Was Amazing]</ref>

==Realization of the panic from the late 10s==

Numerous, social and mainstream media-driven controversies have taken place in 2021, 2022 and 2023 - owing to concerns about the "normalization" of Minor Attracted People. Early precedents such as the 1998-2001 [[Rind et al|Rind Report]] controversy, 2015 [[Todd Nickerson|Salon articles]] had been seen, and more recent events detailed in [[grooming]] (including the massacre of 5 people) are also left out of our list. Instead, we focus on examples where "normalization" of MAPs or "pedophilia" was a predominant concern. These gathered pace following the 2018 and 2019 [[MAP Flag]] controversies, and exploded in 2022, when "Minor Attracted Person" began to trend well ahead of [[NAMBLA]] on most social media:

*In 2019, conservative christian news outlets ran the story of a LGBTQI California school curriculum that taught about [[Pederasty]] to 9th graders. The reaction was largely overblown, but set the tone for further controversies that were to take place, in that it invoked the normalization of "pedophilia" in an educational setting.<ref>[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-pedophilia-school/ Snopes: Pederasty in the classroom?]</ref>
*Throughout the first half of 2020, social media was lit up with controversy surrounding the film ''[[The Trouble with Being Born]]'', which depicts a man's relationship with a prepubescent android girl who resembles his missing daughter. Similar controversy had been seen the year before, concerning a "love has no age" Snapchat filter.<ref>[https://bigleaguepolitics.com/snapchat-releases-love-has-no-age-photo-filter-for-pride-month/ Love Has No Age filter]</ref> Later in 2020, #CancelNetflix began to trend, in response to the movie ''[[Wikipedia:Cuties|Cuties]]'', now considered a timeless masterpiece of pedophilia normalization "rated fresh" with 87% on [[Wikipedia:Rotten Tomatoes|Rotten Tomatoes]], but slated on [[Wikipedia:IMDb|IMDb]].
*In July 2021, '''[[San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus]]''' were involved in a gay-recruitment/[[grooming]] type controversy. Normalization of pedophilia was frequently invoked by their mainly conservative opponents. A further [[Monkey Mayhem Incident|controversy in the UK]] concerned a council's recruitment of a man in a rainbow monkey [[Child safety mascot|fursuit]] with an erect prosthetic phallus, in an attempt to educate children at a public library.
*In late August 2021, '''Noah Berlatsky''' roused the ire of conservatives (Andy Ngo chiefly among them) and some liberals on social media, following his appointment as communications director at [[Prostasia Foundation]].<ref>[https://thepostmillennial.com/nbc-contributor-prostasia-normalizing-pedophilia Post Millennial]</ref>
*In November, 2021, '''[[Allyn Walker]]''' faced widespread social media and mainstream media outrage after participating in an interview with Prostasia, advocating for humane treatment for people with an attraction to minors, and using the term "[[Minor Attracted Person]]" to that effect.
*In January 2022, the media outlet '''USA Today''' was the subject of their own social media controversy, following an article many conservatives felt attempted to "justify pedophilia".<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/media/usa-today-blasted-promoting-complicated-pedophilia-study FOX News: USA Today controversy]</ref>
*In February, 2022, '''[[Stephen Kershnar]]''' attracted wide opprobrium on social media after appearing to defend [[minor-adult sex]] as not being inherently wrong outside a moral framework. Regressive-conservative [[MAP visibility on Twitter|Twitter]] influencer, ''[[LibsofTikTok]]'' was particularly important in amplifying this story, although it appears that her target was himself a libertarian.
*In April of 2022, '''[[David Finkelhor]]''' was involved in a similar LibsofTikTok-enabled social media controversy over comments made during a video forum the previous month.<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-hampshire-professor-dont-presume-pedophilic-acts-start-with-a-predatory-or-criminally-inclined-adult FOX on Finkelhor controversy]</ref>
*In June 2022, '''[[Nelson Maatman]]''' (a [[MAP Movement|MAP Activist]]) was arrested in Mexico, leading to widespread media and social media coverage. NGOs such as [[Operation Underground Railroad]] began to interact with the [[MAP Movement]].
*In August, 2022, '''[[Karl Andersson]]''' (a publisher and academic) was involved in a social media outrage with [[MAP visibility on Twitter|Twitter]] conservatives and radical feminists, surrounding a peer reviewed journal article, written for ''Qualitative Research''. This article concerned the topic of [[Lolicon|Shotacon]], or drawn images of [[boy]]s in sexual situations.
*Almost simultaneously, and as documented in [[Minor Attracted Person]], a controversy erupted surrounding a video made by '''Miranda Galbreath''', a licensed Sex Therapist who was attempting to challenge the [[Research: The Dangers of Stigma|stigma]] on MAPs (and using the term herself).
*Also in August, Radical Conservative [[Feminism|Feminists]] inspired a social media controversy centering on '''[[Virtuous Pedophiles]]''' and their newly-recruited social-media manager's claim to have been leaving written letters in UK libraries.<ref>[https://reduxx.info/pro-pedophile-organization-placing-propaganda-letters-in-uk-libraries/ Reduxx on Virped]</ref> This eventually led to the organization's banning from Twitter.
*In mid-September, 2022, as detailed in [[Minor Attracted Person]], the Texas High School Teacher '''Amber Parker''', went viral on social media after she was filmed appearing to defend the idea of "MAPs" (as opposed to pedophiles - see our [[Media:PR2.pdf|Press Release]] on the subject). This incident was amplified on Twitter by ''[[Gays Against Groomers]]'' (a conservative radical feminist front group), TX Governor Greg Abbott and Matthew Kolken among others. The comments were said by students, parents, Parker's husband and a school administrator to have been taken out of context. She was later fired from her job.
*In mid-September, London's Newham Council was slated on social media for allowing a leaflet advertising a [[queer]] hangout event for 9-25 year olds.<ref>[https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/london-council-blasted-after-asking-25015682 London council blasted after asking 9 year olds to 'hang out' with adult strangers]</ref>
*In late September, Spanish parliamentarian, Irene Montero stated that children ''"have the right to know that they can love or have sexual relations with whoever they want. Based, yes, on consent"'', leading to outcry on social media. An AP fact check straightened out... not much at all by establishing that ''"Montero’s comments make clear that she said '''unwanted''' sexual contact between children and adults amounts to violence"''.<ref name="montero" /><ref>[https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-spain-women-abortion-sex-education-978822725682 Spanish official’s comments on sex education mischaracterized]</ref>
*In early October, 2022, '''[[Jacob Breslow]]''' appeared to survive a social media and mainstream media firestorm over positions advocated in his academic works and his position as a trustee of Mermaids, a charity for transgender youth. This included his use of the term "Minor Attracted Person", and even caught the attention of J.K. Rowling.
*In late October, 2022, '''[[James Cantor]]''' was removed from the list of witnesses at a hearing on "gender-affirming care" for [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|trans youth]]. The justification used (this time by liberals on Twitter) was his advocacy for pedophilia.<ref>[https://www.mediamatters.org/gays-against-groomers/florida-expert-formerly-slated-testify-favor-trans-health-care-ban-once Media Matters: James Cantor controversy]</ref>
*If the previous controversies weren't enough, in late November 2022, '''Balenciaga''' (a fashion brand owned by Kering) were caught in a further such rumpus following adverts that featured a BDSM-gear-festooned teddy bear and a small child, along with allusions to the relaxation of child pornography laws.<ref>[https://tmj.news/balenciagacampaign/ TMJ: Balenciaga - moral decay]</ref>
*In December of that year, French cartoonist '''Bastien Vivès''' faced a petition of 100,000 signatures calling on the prestigious Angoulême International Comics Festival to revoke his invitation to participate the gathering. Among the criticisms were "displaying incestuous and pedophile images and scenes" and the promotion of "[[rape culture]]". The festival announced that it was forced to cancel his appearance, citing "physical threats" online against Vivès that could put both the cartoonist and festival goers at risk, as reported by Le Figaro.<ref>[https://worldcrunch.com/culture-society/bastien-vives-cartoonist-pedophilia-incest Worldcrunch.com on the cancellation of Bastian Vives]. See also [https://www.liberation.fr/culture/accusations-contre-bastien-vives-le-festival-dangouleme-sous-pression-20221209_LPOJK6QEVJE2NFPQQFGY2SHXDM/ "Dessins de Bastien Vivès mis en cause : le Festival d'Angoulême sous pression". in ''Libération''], [https://www.francetvinfo.fr/culture/bd/festival-de-bd-d-angouleme/le-festival-de-bd-d-angouleme-annule-l-exposition-de-bastien-vives-accuse-de-promouvoir-la-pedopornographie-apres-des-menaces-contre-l-auteur_5543805.html "Le festival de BD d'Angoulême annule l'exposition de Bastien Vivès, accusé de promouvoir la pédopornographie, après des "menaces" contre l'auteur". in ''Franceinfo''], and [https://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2022/12/14/le-festival-international-de-la-bande-dessinee-d-angouleme-annule-l-exposition-de-bastien-vives_6154430_3246.html "L'exposition de Bastien Vivès annulée par le Festival de la BD d'Angoulême pour raisons de « sécurité »". in ''Le Monde''.fr]. For background, see [https://www.actuabd.com/Le-cas-Vives Le cas Vivès]</ref> Much of the criticism was left-"progressive" slanted, focusing on the artist's supposedly reactionary background.
*In January 2023, '''Police Scotland''' and the '''European Union''' were hauled before the court of public opinion, after what appeared to be sympathetic use of the term "Minor Attracted Person" in official materials.<ref>[https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/world-news/minor-attracted-person-scandal-inside-28858264 Scottish Daily Express scandal re. EU, Police Scotland using "Minor Attracted Person"]</ref> Despite the "standard" nature of this outrage, the story, and response from Police Scotland were viewed around 10 million times on Twitter alone.
*A further controversy took place in Spain, concerning a TV series depicting an intergenerational relationship involving a 15-year-old girl. The ''Christian Lawyers Foundation'' insisted that the series be pulled.<ref>[https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253338/christian-lawyers-foundation-in-spain-demands-tv-series-promoting-pedophilia-be-pulled Christian Lawyers Foundation in Spain demands TV series promoting pedophilia be pulled]</ref>
*Throughout the preceding years, it has been a common taunt of Russian media and state officials, that "the west" is "normalizing pedophilia". In February 2023, President Vladimir Putin repeated these accusations in a rambling speech, one assumes, in a provocative attempt to force his opponents to defend initiatives such as the EU-funded 2PS project<ref>[https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-eu-project-sees-police-28841534?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar Scottish DM - EU 2PS Project]</ref> and [[B4U-ACT]], that has at times received state funding.<ref>[https://thehill.com/newsletters/morning-report/3867443-the-hills-morning-report-biden-putin-frame-year-of-war-in-dueling-speeches/ Putin speech - The Hill]</ref>
*The Dutch '''Democratic Party''' (D66) and their youth wing, were embroiled in a further Feb 2023 controversy, when English-speaking social media users unearthed resolutions deemed to be sympathetic to "pedophiles".<ref>[https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/dutch-governing-party-advocates-accepting-pedophilia-and-teaching-it-in-schools/ Young Democrats: European Conservative]</ref>
*In March 2023, two students associated with the University of Chile ('''[[Leonardo_Arce_Vidal|Leonardo Arce Vidal]]'''<ref>[https://repositorio-uchile-cl.translate.goog/handle/2250/145147?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#:~:text=La%20presente%20tesis%20es%20la,con%20voz%20o%20sujeto%20completo. Pedophiles and infants: folds and folds of desire (2016)]</ref> and [['''Mauricio Quiroz Muñoz''']]<ref>[https://repositorio-uchile-cl.translate.goog/handle/2250/179587?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp The pedagogue's denied wish: being a pedophile (2020)]</ref>) whose respective MA and BA theses problematized the figure of the pedophile and the notion of [[Intrinsic harm|intrinsic harm]] in relation to age-disparate sex, were (along with their supervisors) subject to university investigation. The familiar right-wing twitter storm had preceded and provoked these investigations, also leading to condemnation by university officials and organizations which speak on behalf of minors/youth. The university both condemned the works and pointed out the works were "''purely theoretical nature, which do not report intervention on human populations, and which, even taking into account how debatable their content turns out to be, met the requirements of the academic evaluation process''".<ref>[https://cooperativa-cl.translate.goog/noticias/pais/educacion/universidades/escandalo-por-tesis-pro-pedofilia-u-de-chile-investigara-eventuales/2022-12-26/203839.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp Cooperativa: Scandal for pro-pedophilia thesis: U. de Chile will investigate eventual responsibilities]</ref>
*In the same month, conservative pundits attempted but failed to generate enough attention to scandalize historian '''[[Rachel Hope Cleves]]''' for using "intergenerational sex" in her treatment of [[Norman Douglas]]. Social media conservatives were outraged at clips from a book-launch interview that had been in the public domain for 3 years.<ref>[https://dailycaller.com/2023/03/21/rachel-hope-cleves-pedophilia-historian-intergenerational-sex-rape-10-year-old-boy-abuse/ Rachel Hope-Cleves: Daily Caller]</ref>
*April's controversy centered on the [[United Nations|UN]],<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/un-backed-legal-recommendations-normalize-sex-minors-critics-say New UN-backed legal recommendations normalize sex with minors, outraged critics say]</ref> following the publication of new legal principles problematizing the idea that adolescents are inherently unable to [[consent]], including to sex. American conservatives reacted by circulating the theory that such opinions represent an attempt to "soften up" the public prior to the release of supposedly "damning" information concerning [[Jeffrey Epstein]]'s high-profile visitors.
*Later in April, a Twitter user posted another [[MAP Flag]] concept, causing outrage on [[Alice Day]]. The event made the mainstream media and drew Elon Musk's condemnation.<ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12017643/Elon-Musk-suspends-Twitter-user-created-pedophile-flag.html Daily Mail on Zeeb's controversy]</ref><ref>[https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/twitter-user-pedophile-flag-account-suspended FOX on Zeeb's controversy]</ref><ref>[https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-ex-ufc-fighter-rages-twitter-account-elon-musk-suspended-posting-pedophilia-flag UFC Fighter on Zeeb]</ref>
*Hysteria over MAPs hit a period of latency through the summer of 2023, in part resulting from the failure of fringe conservatives to scandalize pro-MAP initiatives, research and advocacy, given the familiarity of the subject. Ngo did, however renew his war against Berlatsky, resulting in numerous hitpieces against the former [[Prostasia Foundation]] spokesman, following his negative review of [[Operation Underground Railroad]]'s ''Sound of Freedom'' film.<ref>[https://www.dailywire.com/news/former-pedophile-advocacy-group-spokesman-writes-bloomberg-hit-piece-on-sound-of-freedom Daily Wire: Berlatsky's Bloomberg Hit Piece]</ref>

==Opinions among MAPs==

Predictions of significant social change have ranged from 5-50 years or so<ref>[https://www.boychat.org/messages/1579325.htm BoyChat thread documenting timescale for changes]</ref>. However, it is generally agreed that social indicators are pointing to a "fourth [[moral panic]]" taking place following similar scares in the Victorian and Postwar eras and then the 70s onward. The new panic, as we identified in 2021, appears to concern "normalization of pedophilia", and has snowballed since.

===Softening of liberal opposition towards minor attraction===

Since the late 00s, but particularly in the 20s, it has been observed that mainstream American Liberals are realizing child erotic symbolism and pedophile demonology can be used against them and their allies. The 2009 ''Hate Crimes Prevention Act'' is an often cited example in [[anti]]-pedophile conspiratorial circles. Democrats defeated an attempt by Republicans to exclude Pedophilia from the act. As Alcee Hastings famously put it:

<blockquote>''This bill addresses our resolve to end violence based on prejudice and to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability or all of these ‘philias’ and fetishes and ‘isms’ that were put forward need not live in fear because of who they are. I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of this rule.''<ref>[https://www.coloradoindependent.com/2009/07/16/hate-crimes-amendment-scheduled-for-vote-christian-groups-oppose-law-as-utter-evil/ Colorado Independent: Alcee Hastings - Hate Crimes Amendment]</ref></blockquote>

In 2023, Minnesota Democrats similarly pushed to have language excluding attraction to minors from anti discrimination laws altered.<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/transgender-minnesota-lawmaker-introduces-bill-removing-anti-pedophile-language-states-human-rights-act Fox article about the bill], and [https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF1655&version=1&session=ls93&session_year=2023&session_number=0 Minnesota bill]</ref>

===The tone of mainstream and conservative media===

The tone of conservative-identifying media is an important barometer, given that “liberal-progressive” corporations such as Google are arbiters of what is deemed to be acceptable conservatism. This control is exerted via algorithm changes and YouTube censorship for example. In gauging the tone of outlets such Glenn Beck’s YouTube-dependent ''TheBlaze'' network, we can see what Google deems to be the last bastion of acceptable conservatism in the Post-Trump era. In this case, when Beck’s (mainly very young) acolytes cover the familiar topic of [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|trans children]], minors' exposure to sexual content, MAPs, or any form of “[[degeneracy]]”, the tone tends to be either laughter, mocking or disbelief as opposed to the sharp moral/religious condemnation typical of the old "moral majority". This might indicate an openness in Silicon Valley towards the idea of immersing wider culture in sexual taboo topics. The result of this would be general desensitisation towards gay and trans politics, clearing the ground for MAPs to be used as the next contentious pawns in a binary culture war. The perpetuation of culture wars to divide and distract, is a tried and tested long-term strategy of establishments engaged in financial malpractice and corruption. Potential scandals such as the deliberate pursuit of inflationary policies, have the potential to unite both sides of the political spectrum ''against'' power elites, and thus need to be shut down with distractions.

===MAPs' arguable progress in the "battle to prevent the battle"===

By percolating into mainstream and social media, the politics and terminology of MAPs set forth in the mid-late 00s, appears to have achieved basic visibility in the late 10s and onward. This has been described as a "part success" in what [[Harris Mirkin]] described as anti-MAP's "battle to prevent the battle".<ref>[https://sci-hub.se/10.1300/J082v37n02_01 Harris Mirkin PhD (1999): The Pattern of Sexual Politics, Journal of Homosexuality, 37:2, 1-24]</ref>

Panic has been seen inside [[assimilationism|assimilationist]] parts of the the LGBTQ+ community, spanning from a fear of engaging with MAPs, lest they attempt to [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|become part of their wider umbrella group again]]. MAP terminology is now widely visible in academia, and established culture war hobbyhorses such as the trans issue are starting to look tired, or are otherwise stimulating hot button MAP/Youth-Rights-adjacent themes such as a child’s right to choose hormone blockers or gender transition surgery.

At the same time, alternative-right trolls are pointing to the MAP topic as proof of moral relativism’s inevitable conclusion, and liberalism’s “next frontier”. Various alternative-right social media trolls have adopted the strategy of goading LGBTQ+ people to accept MAPs as the next persecuted minority – asserting it would only be consistent with their long-held principles. We have observed in-situ, some alternative-right trolls who are more thoroughly MAP-literate than some MAPs themselves!

==The coming years==

So, in summary, social conservatives and regressives have for a long time predicted the same kind of discursive shift for MAPs that took place around homosexuality in the postwar period. One possible implication of this theory, is that any publicity raising the awareness of MAPs (good or bad), might have a positive effect by accelerating this discursive breakout. For example, MAPs might benefit from posing as concerned citizens, distributing hysterical and implausible black propaganda leaflets and internet memes warning of MAP attempts to legitimize “child rape”. Similarly, they might benefit from having moles within the LGBTQ+ movement itself, circulating pro-MAP information from a purportedly pro-LGBTQ+ perspective, or simply asking peers for opinions on MAPs.

==Alternative names==

*'''P(a)edogeddon''' (probably coined in 2001 by the British satirist, Christopher Morris<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Morris_(satirist) Chris Morris]</ref>).
*'''MAPnarök''' - Rare, mentioned by a [[Help:Joining PCMA chat|PCMA]] user.
*'''PedoSchwing2025''' Urban Dictionary. [https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=%23PedoSchwing2025 PedoSchwing2025]
*'''PedoFloyd''' A (cautionary) riff on James Lindsay's "Drag Floyd" notion, that forward motion from DQSH and push-back from anti-DQSH forces will lead, inevitably, to violence. [https://thecharliekirkshow.com/podcasts/the-charlie-kirk-show/dont-fall-for-drag-floyd-with-james-lindsay Don't fall for Drag Floyd!] James Lindsay and Charlie Kirk.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:Anti-Pedophile culture]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: MAP]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 2020s]]

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-03T03:08:51Z

Didaskalosmrm:

==Mark says Hello.==
Here we are 11/1, the beginning (more or less) of the Celtic New Year.
The first few projects I aim to tackle are:
1 A page for Plato's Phaedros, onto which to dump links to my four language text and my recordings thereof.
2 A page currently listed as the top of the MOST WANTED page list.[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 02:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
3 A Homer page. Not because I've ever been the least bit excited by HOMER's account of Ganymede, but because it is the FIRST account of Ganymede, and because Homer is the kind of thing disaffected 21st Century boys are likely to like.
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Mark has thoughts.==
As I survey the new Newgon, I find myself struck by two thoughts. By and large I'm impressed by the professionalism, and the need to operate, at a less than inflammatory level, as an information center. Aware of the activities of the more inflammatory types, but safely distant from them. Good Job, Newgon!

But.

There's nothing here that would be fun for boys.
("If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" is what we said in the Boy Scouts.)

And, there's nothing here but yuck-material that would make conservatives not want to have anything to do with Newgon. ;(
Newgon has done good work in LISTING Uhler, GAG, Shoeonhead, Blaire White, James Lindsay, Alaric Naude, etc.
All these are people I count friends and allies.
But Newgon has done precious little about helping anyone BECOME the sort of person with whom these people could have a conversation.
So: I dub myself the Newgon conservative-whisperer. The performance art game is to convince the conservatives that I'm a both an undercover pedo-mole who is infiltrating Newgon to destroy it, out of deeply-held conservative principles, AND ALSO a doubleplusgood deep-cover pedo-agent who is infiltrating the conservative movement to weaken its resistance to PedoSchwing2025. While simultaneously convincing Newgon that I'm a baby-boy-blue-blooded normality-destroying pedo-agent cozying up to conservatives to advance our nefarious "pedo-normalization" agenda, and hoping that the disgusting lust-monkeys of Newgon don't catch on that in posting material like Plato's Phaedros, I'm poisoning their joy in boy-love, and working to bring down their movement, UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

It's the EUMOLPOS CATASTROPHE writ large, in political terms, you see.

Oh shit, that's another page I have to make now. ;(
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 05:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

==Articles to make==
Wanted Article Piece
Phaedros
DUL
Eumolpos Catastrophe

User:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-02T20:56:35Z

Didaskalosmrm:

==Hello, NewGon.==
Been at BoyChat since 1999. Have a Ph.D. in trollology from Encyclopedia Dramatica.
Mostly focused on high-end classical scholarship & performance, but also thoroughly enjoy the low-brow world of internet baby-talk, memes, LulzCon, trolling and all. Very keen on the upcoming identity battles, which I dub:
1 hash-tag PedoSchwing2025 if conservative opposition collapses quietly,
or
2 hash-tag PedoFloyd
if it doesn't, and somebody from Team BL plays the fool and gets martyred.

I tend to speak polyphonically, so Plato's dialogues are a natural way for me to express myself.
The Phaedros, for instance, allows me to cover the self-centered, ridiculous, lustful, mercenary, hypocritical side of BL, as I have come to know it in 23 years of participating at BoyChat (up to and including murder), as well as going full-on High Boy-Lover Priesthood, dropping the anti-pedo bombs of: PLATO, FICINO, PLATONIC LOVE, and CELIBACY. In addition, I'm deeply interested in the Eumolpos Castastrophe, the abrupt transition between those two points of view. Lotta laughs in the Eumolpos Catastrophe.

I thoroughly enjoy travelling the world doing performance that lets me show my ULTRA-VIOLENT face (Achilles, Beowulf) and my LUPUS/HAIRY-FACE/Praedator Corporis/Carnivorous Pedophile face. (Satyricon, Pergamene Boy, Phaedros, Zeus/Ganymede, Cretan Abduction myth in Plutarch, etc.) I can do this (and you can't) because I've professionalized as a reciter of Greek and Latin poetry (and you haven't.)

I'm out as a BL IRL, as only a Classical Scholar who voices BL literature really can be, and hope to do convention work representing the BL POV in the current climate of gender-chaos. I'm particularly interested in talking to people who think trans has gone too far. Addressing alarmed conservatives: If you're serious about "saving" boys from trans, from the consequences of having ONLY female role-models, then you're going to need to start talking seriously about the natural currents of libido between men & boys, as such relationships are essential for boys who are trying to become men. What can be done to help boys and boy-lovers initiatate, maintain, regulate, and evaluate such relationships, and, when they have run their course, bring such relationships to an end? Are we to limit ourselves to the old Boy Scouts of America model, of boys meeting briefly with elderly, sexually-trustworthy merit-badge counselors? Are we to throw the doors wide open to boys having sex with whomever they want, whenever they want? Both positions seem a little extreme to me. I don't know what the emancipation protocols described here would entail, exactly, but I think the discussion has to move in the direction of hearing from the boys themselves.

As a veteran of 3 separate year-long post-gay programs (they weren't that bad!) I feel strongly that the discussion has to simultaneously cover the personalest of the personal matters, AND ALSO that the discussions must be carried out in a way that is totally impersonal and embarrasses nobody, because it avoids bringing personal matters into the open. Discussions about the gender-identity formation that takes place in the context of a man-boy relationship must be framed by the realities that a boy necessarily comes from his mother, and will end up in a heterosexual relationship. (Well, most of them.) A boy-love that doesn't understand itself as nothing more than a TRANSITIONAL MOMENT between those two relationships, is a foolish boy-love.

(See OPUS GENERIS as a first go at answering those demands, in the context of a two-hour performance piece, and within the limitations of Greek/Latin poetry.)

As far as my pro-c bonafides, I give full-voiced, lusty representation to the pro-contact Greek voices, and the Greek voices that oppose them. I think that should be enough for anybody. In particular, Warren's Defense of Uranian Love, Volume I, gives a good, Dantescan account of Boy-Love Excessive, Defective, and Perverted, if that's the kind of thing you want to read about. Warren's aim, I think, was to MAKE people look at the Warren Cup, and MAKE people read the Phaedros. Rampant pedophilia, and pedophilia subject to brutal and effective restraint are, for me, two sides of the same coin; not to be separated.

I would prefer to remain focused on Heroic Poetry, as I think that's the sort of thing that the kind of boys I like, would like. But I have been distracted the last few years with the Phaedros and OPUS GENERIS. My eventual career goal is to have all Homer & all Plato edited up in nice four-language editions (Greek, Latin, English and Japanese) and recorded in all four languages, and housed on a nice, permanent, professional-looking, internationally-accessible Digital Classics Platform. My presence here at NewGon is a way of beginning that uploading process in a Digital Context not unfriendly to Boy-Love. I'm almost done with the Four-Language Iliad; in order to avoid copyright issues with the Japanese publisher, I'll have to muddle 3 20th C translations with some cutting edge 2020's Tokyo slang, and call it a "new translation." (!)

Having worked on the translations for the republication of Edward Perry Warren's A Defense of Uranian Love, (2009) I got interested in the Phaedros, which DUL cites extensively, and which I'm almost ready to record, with its famous 3 myths and 3 speeches. Plato takes his Socrates-character down some VERY queer streets, in the process. As with everything I do, my edition is a Four Language edition, Greek, Ficino's Latin, English, and Japanese.

In 2015, seeing the interest in Trans with Bruce Jenner's transformation into Caitlyn, I resolved to stitch together a miniature epic of gender-identity formation, which I call OPUS GENERIS, begining with the boy's stage of Identity with the Mother, (Cat 63, Cybele & Attis) and ending with the boy chasing girls his own age like a proper heterosexual. (Ovid Metamorphoses, Apollo and Cyparissus, ceding to Daphne & Apollo.) In between, of course, I put the poetry of boy-love relationships which fail because the father-figure is too close (Pindar Olympian #1, Zeus on Ganymede, Poseidon on Pelops) or too far away (Odyssey II, Telemachos missing Odysseus.) All the poems are meant to be representations of nightmarish situations which a boy must learn to recognize and wake up from. Not as bases to be tagged, or badges to be earned. THAT would be a mis-interpretation!

My conception of proper Boy-Love is very much a matter of the Ever-Receding Low-Competence Dance. Most men prize their high-competence reputations; Jordan Peterson has beaten this theme to death. Boys, of course, have little competence at anything, so if you don't want to intimidate them, you have to sort of do a little dance of being a little less competent and a little more competent than they are, at the task in question. And, when they have a laugh at the little bit of incompetence and are inspired by the little bit of competence, and make a little advance towards the boy-lover, the boy-lover has to do a little hop, skip & jump, to recede out of the boy's grasp, but not out of his view. Not out his view, but out of his grasp, if the game is to be kept going. If it's ever a question of the boy EMBRACING the boy-lover, then the relationship has deteriorated to a mother/child or sex-maniac/sex-object relationship, which is not my idea of good Boy-Love at all. SO: ever-receding, and with a little more and a little less competence than the boy. OPUS GENERIS and PHAEDROS are to be understood as my attempt to communicate what I have learned about BL within the strictures of classical form, perpetually enacting the slightly less competent and slightly more competent boy-lover dance, for the amusement and edification of my fellow BL's. ;)

As far as the ethnonationalism question, if you took the ethnonationalism out of heroic poetry, there would be very little left. Of course, as a Welsh-American, it's with OODLES OF IRONY that I recite something as Anglo-Saxon as TEH BEOWULF. Boys must have their spirituality and their tribe. What else do boys have their muscles and sexuality and dreams of independence for, if not for their tribe? Studying heroic poetry shows how men and boys of older times made space for themselves. As a keen student of Richmond, Virginia's dear son James Branch Cabell -- nothing UNIRONIC about him or me! -- I am quite taken by the recent melting down of the Charlottesville statue of General Robert E. Lee. The more the 21st Century melts down the old masculine ideals, the more (I suppose) boys will be LOOKING AROUND for masculine ideals they can embrace for their own 21st century lives. I'm stock-piling heroic poetry against the time when the public forum is completely feminized, and no one but us boy-lovers has anything masculine to offer boys.

---Didaskalos, a Good Latin Teacher Gone Bad.
(My Performance Alter Ego)
---Mark Miner, In Real Life.

==Links to stuff I've done==
Account of poetry activities
https://www.facebook.com/SanDiegoHomerCon/
Patchy Fur writes about me
https://dogpatch.press/2023/03/
Virtue-Cast #5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ6J5wFtzJY&fbclid=IwAR2uQohdTccSHbMMxAJAlwpbRtocwm23iu1KTr2acTPeYm-K_JLGfPY9HnU
Reader article:
https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2019/jul/31/golden-mark-miner-celebrates-gender-fluidity/
Warren's Collection comes to the Getty in California
https://chasingaphrodite.com/tag/mark-miner/
Warren's Defense of Uranian Love
https://www.amazon.com/Defence-Uranian-Love-Valancourt-Classics/dp/193455569X
Biblia Americana (I helped with the volume on JOHN, which is still <i>sub prelo.</i>)
https://heritagebooks.org/products/biblia-americana-vol-1-genesis-mather.html

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-02T05:14:15Z

Didaskalosmrm:

User talk:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-02T02:00:33Z

Didaskalosmrm: Aims.

Here we are 11/1, the beginning (more or less) of the Celtic New Year.
The first two projects I aim to tackle are
1 A page for Plato's Phaedros, onto which to dump links to my four language text and my recordings thereof.
2 A page currently listed as the top of the MOST WANTED page list.[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 02:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Didaskalosmrm

2023-11-01T21:32:59Z

Didaskalosmrm:

Hello, NewGon.
Been at BoyChat since 1999. Have a Ph.D. in trollology from Encyclopedia Dramatica.
Mostly focused on high-end classical scholarship & performance, but also thoroughly enjoy the low-brow world of internet baby-talk, memes, LulzCon, trolling and all. Very keen on the upcoming identity battles, which I dub:
1 hash-tag PedoSchwing2025 if conservative opposition collapses quietly,
or
2 hash-tag PedoFloyd
if it doesn't, and somebody from Team BL plays the fool and gets martyred.

I tend to speak polyphonically, so Plato's dialogues are a natural way for me to express myself.
The Phaedros, for instance, allows me to cover the self-centered, ridiculous, lustful, mercenary, hypocritical side of BL, as I have come to know it in 23 years of participating at BoyChat (up to and including murder), as well as going full-on High Boy-Lover Priesthood, dropping the anti-pedo bombs of: PLATO, FICINO, PLATONIC LOVE, and CELIBACY. In addition, I'm deeply interested in the Eumolpos Castastrophe, the abrupt transition between those two points of view. Lotta laughs in the Eumolpos Catastrophe.

I thoroughly enjoy travelling the world doing performance that lets me show my ULTRA-VIOLENT face (Achilles, Beowulf) and my LUPUS/HAIRY-FACE/Praedator Corporis/Carnivorous Pedophile face. (Satyricon, Pergamene Boy, Phaedros, Zeus/Ganymede, Cretan Abduction myth in Plutarch, etc.) I can do this (and you can't) because I've professionalized as a reciter of Greek and Latin poetry (and you haven't.)

I'm out as a BL IRL, as only a Classical Scholar who voices BL literature really can be, and hope to do convention work representing the BL POV in the current climate of gender-chaos. I'm particularly interested in talking to people who think trans has gone too far. Addressing alarmed conservatives: If you're serious about "saving" boys from trans, from the consequences of having ONLY female role-models, then you're going to need to start talking seriously about the natural currents of libido between men & boys, as such relationships are essential for boys who are trying to become men. What can be done to help boys and boy-lovers initiatate, maintain, regulate, and evaluate such relationships, and, when they have run their course, bring such relationships to an end? Are we to limit ourselves to the old Boy Scouts of America model, of boys meeting briefly with elderly, sexually-trustworthy merit-badge counselors? Are we to throw the doors wide open to boys having sex with whomever they want, whenever they want? Both positions seem a little extreme to me. I don't know what the emancipation protocols described here would entail, exactly, but I think the discussion has to move in the direction of hearing from the boys themselves.

As a veteran of 3 separate year-long post-gay programs (they weren't that bad!) I feel strongly that the discussion has to simultaneously cover the personalest of the personal matters, AND ALSO that the discussions must be carried out in a way that is totally impersonal and embarrasses nobody, because it avoids bringing personal matters into the open. Discussions about the gender-identity formation that takes place in the context of a man-boy relationship must be framed by the realities that a boy necessarily comes from his mother, and will end up in a heterosexual relationship. (Well, most of them.) A boy-love that doesn't understand itself as nothing more than a TRANSITIONAL MOMENT between those two relationships, is a foolish boy-love.

(See OPUS GENERIS as a first go at answering those demands, in the context of a two-hour performance piece, and within the limitations of Greek/Latin poetry.)

As far as my pro-c bonafides, I give full-voiced, lusty representation to the pro-contact Greek voices, and the Greek voices that oppose them. I think that should be enough for anybody. In particular, Warren's Defense of Uranian Love, Volume I, gives a good, Dantescan account of Boy-Love Excessive, Defective, and Perverted, if that's the kind of thing you want to read about. Warren's aim, I think, was to MAKE people look at the Warren Cup, and MAKE people read the Phaedros. Rampant pedophilia, and pedophilia subject to brutal and effective restraint are, for me, two sides of the same coin; not to be separated.

I would prefer to remain focused on Heroic Poetry, as I think that's the sort of thing that the kind of boys I like, would like. But I have been distracted the last few years with the Phaedros and OPUS GENERIS. My eventual career goal is to have all Homer & all Plato edited up in nice four-language editions (Greek, Latin, English and Japanese) and recorded in all four languages, and housed on a nice, permanent, professional-looking, internationally-accessible Digital Classics Platform. My presence here at NewGon is a way of beginning that uploading process in a Digital Context not unfriendly to Boy-Love. I'm almost done with the Four-Language Iliad; in order to avoid copyright issues with the Japanese publisher, I'll have to muddle 3 20th C translations with some cutting edge 2020's Tokyo slang, and call it a "new translation." (!)

Having worked on the translations for the republication of Edward Perry Warren's A Defense of Uranian Love, (2009) I got interested in the Phaedros, which DUL cites extensively, and which I'm almost ready to record, with its famous 3 myths and 3 speeches. Plato takes his Socrates-character down some VERY queer streets, in the process. As with everything I do, my edition is a Four Language edition, Greek, Ficino's Latin, English, and Japanese.

In 2015, seeing the interest in Trans with Bruce Jenner's transformation into Caitlyn, I resolved to stitch together a miniature epic of gender-identity formation, which I call OPUS GENERIS, begining with the boy's stage of Identity with the Mother, (Cat 63, Cybele & Attis) and ending with the boy chasing girls his own age like a proper heterosexual. (Ovid Metamorphoses, Apollo and Cyparissus, ceding to Daphne & Apollo.) In between, of course, I put the poetry of boy-love relationships which fail because the father-figure is too close (Pindar Olympian #1, Zeus on Ganymede, Poseidon on Pelops) or too far away (Odyssey II, Telemachos missing Odysseus.) All the poems are meant to be representations of nightmarish situations which a boy must learn to recognize and wake up from. Not as bases to be tagged, or badges to be earned. THAT would be a mis-interpretation!

My conception of proper Boy-Love is very much a matter of the Ever-Receding Low-Competence Dance. Most men prize their high-competence reputations; Jordan Peterson has beaten this theme to death. Boys, of course, have little competence at anything, so if you don't want to intimidate them, you have to sort of do a little dance of being a little less competent and a little more competent than they are, at the task in question. And, when they have a laugh at the little bit of incompetence and are inspired by the little bit of competence, and make a little advance towards the boy-lover, the boy-lover has to do a little hop, skip & jump, to recede out of the boy's grasp, but not out of his view. Not out his view, but out of his grasp, if the game is to be kept going. If it's ever a question of the boy EMBRACING the boy-lover, then the relationship has deteriorated to a mother/child or sex-maniac/sex-object relationship, which is not my idea of good Boy-Love at all. SO: ever-receding, and with a little more and a little less competence than the boy. OPUS GENERIS and PHAEDROS are to be understood as my attempt to communicate what I have learned about BL within the strictures of classical form, perpetually enacting the slightly less competent and slightly more competent boy-lover dance, for the amusement and edification of my fellow BL's. ;)

As far as the ethnonationalism question, if you took the ethnonationalism out of heroic poetry, there would be very little left. Of course, as a Welsh-American, it's with OODLES OF IRONY that I recite something as Anglo-Saxon as TEH BEOWULF. Boys must have their spirituality and their tribe. What else do boys have their muscles and sexuality and dreams of independence for, if not for their tribe? Studying heroic poetry shows how men and boys of older times made space for themselves. As a keen student of Richmond, Virginia's dear son James Branch Cabell -- nothing UNIRONIC about him or me! -- I am quite taken by the recent melting down of the Charlottesville statue of General Robert E. Lee. The more the 21st Century melts down the old masculine ideals, the more (I suppose) boys will be LOOKING AROUND for masculine ideals they can embrace for their own 21st century lives. I'm stock-piling heroic poetry against the time when the public forum is completely feminized, and no one but us boy-lovers has anything masculine to offer boys.

---Didaskalos, a Good Latin Teacher Gone Bad.
(My Performance Alter Ego)
---Mark Miner, In Real Life.

User talk:Prue

2023-10-31T23:37:25Z

Didaskalosmrm:

==Hi==

Thanks for submitting the sources to the new article on the lGBT movement. Here is a template for citations:

<nowiki><ref>[https://example.com/example Citation or rough name]</ref></nowiki>

For no Link:

<nowiki><ref>Citation</ref></nowiki>

--[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 08:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

==I have created two articles==

With topical information you submitted to [[Censorship]]:

*[[David Sonenschein]] - COMPLETE.
*[[Ernest Borneman]]

In time, these will be developed, but this might be a good point to look at the foundational basis of a working article. We templated one a while back:

[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=NewgonWiki:Article_template_for_a_stub&action=edit copy the wikitext and paste into the articles, then knock out the categories and sections you don't need and work the content]. --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 09:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

==Thank You==

Hi there. As you can see I'm still slowly slowly learning by doing, making contributions here and there to try and get a handle on how editing and creating pages works. Apologies for my sloppiness... And thank you for making separate pages for Borneman and Sonenschein; I put way too much info but I'm not too sure on how to create a page as opposed to just editing an already made one. I'll practice making a page in the near future, as I'm thinking of creating a page "bias in research" where I'll summarize the few explicit analysis of research bias by Bruce Rind and Alayne Yates, respectively. And prob discuss Paul Okami and Joel Best's discussions of victimological [non-scientific] terminology being used in research. Also, if you've not seen these pages yet I wonder if they'd be good to archive https://famouspedophiles.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/notables-figures-living-or-dead-who-evinced-an-attraction-to-people-under-16-with-a-focus-on-under-13/ and https://famouspedophiles.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/famous-pedophiles/
:Hey, yes, Famous Peds is a project that falls under our mirror project (i.e. it contains plenty of material we can duplicate if it is carefully vetted and integrated into our article/category structure). I'd like to end up with plenty of medium-size, easy to mainatin historical articles based on that site. BoyWiki also has some similar information, but they also have a lot of texts and deep archives - the kind of thing we read and summarize when relevant, but don't engage in ourselves unless we have exclusive access to a text, and that is rare.
:I have just created an article on [[Philip Tromovitch|Tromovitch]] to show you how a basic stub article works, although you are welcome to include more information about your subjects if it is less well circulated elsewhere. So if we have an article on a popular current/evolving subject, we tend to just keep a stub that links out, so it doesn't need updating. We link out to resources that are updated - i.e. Wikipedia. If it's a common but relevant topic like Michael Jackson for example, we would carry information that is less widely circulated, and link out for everything else.
:When you create an article, to begin with, you should just be more inclusive. I'll then come in and delete excessive categories etc, or suggest alternative locations for other information.
:What you propose sounds like a research review list for "problems in research". This was suggested by Jillium (?), so feel free to copy the format and start building it (first of all, without linking it to the research project). We are working on the summarization of Janssen - a similar kind of thing, but more long term in its scope. --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 04:56, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

==Bias in research==
I saw this request and modified an existing article to accommodate any excerpts you might have on these topics:

[[Research: Methodological flaws and syndrome construction]] --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 00:04, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

:For a list of things not yet integrated to articles: [https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Talk:Research] --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 07:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

==Lets work on it here==

Testimonies now integrated in format.

Let's use this page as the sandbox for a new article.

The article you have quoted seems to have ample material for an new article on Korephilia, Lesbian Intergenerational relationships or something like that. This would have to be a new article. Alternatively, a book stub with a review or excerpts annexed could be an acceptable format. let me know and i'll look at creating something. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 06:37, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

===The content===

* '''Littauer, Amanda. (2020) [https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s], in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1, 95-108'''

*: '''Abstract''': "Drawing on letters and writings by teenage girls and oral history interviews, this article aims to open a scholarly conversation about the existence and significance of intergenerational sexual relationships between minor girls and adult women in the years leading up to and encompassing the lesbian feminist movement of the 1970s. Lesbian history and culture say very little about sexual connections between youth and adults, sweeping them under the rug in gender-inflected ways that differ from the suppression of speech in gay male history and culture about intergenerational sex between boys and men. Nonetheless, my research suggests that, despite lesbian feminists’ caution and even negativity toward teen girls, erotic and sexual relationships with adult women provided girls access to support, pleasure, mentorship, and community."

*: Newgon: Except ''[[Paidika]]'''s special issue dedicated to female sexuality and the non-specialist Youthlove Anthology "''[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians and Feminists Speak about Youthlove]''", this article represents one of the few discussions of "Queer" (non-normative) intergenerational lesbianism. Because the article represents a seminal contribution drawing on archival material which has never been publicized before, we have included longer quotations as a separate page here '''[if someone could create this, link the page and simply paste the following quotations that would be amazing 'cause idk how / I'll take forever.''', and focused on testimonies in what follows here.

['''Quotes for separate article''' - I've given some titles in bold to separate info and signpost the reader]:

'''The Conspiracy of Silence on Intergenerational Lesbianism'''

"Across the [feminist] ideological spectrum, there was strong opposition to the sexual objectification of women and attentiveness to the ways that power relations shaped sexual dynamics. The feminist politicization of sexuality sometimes led lesbian feminists to downplay butch masculinity and to deemphasize lesbian sexual desire and practice. It should not be surprising, then, that explicit discussion of age-differentiated sexual relationships between women and girls felt risky and unwelcome in lesbian feminist communities" (p. 96)

"Historians have speculated that reasons for this absence in the literature likely include the lasting impact of the myth of homosexual pedophilia; the exclusion of legal minors from LGBT commercial, cultural, and social spaces; and the politics of gay and lesbian respectability in the marriage equality era" (p. 96).

"Many teen girls in the mid-to late twentieth century [...] initiated sexual and romantic relationships with self-identified lesbians who were part of lesbian networks. Unlike in gay male subcultures, however, lesbian and lesbian feminist communities usually stigmatized relationships between adult lesbians and adolescents, who were seen as placing adults at risk of persecution and even legal prosecution for “contributing to the delinquency of a minor.” In their search for connection and belonging, teen girls who initiated romantic and sexual relationships with adult lesbians risked rejection and further alienation" (pp. 100-101).

"In ''Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold'', Elizabeth Kennedy and Madeline Davis [..] mention the phenomenon of older femmes taking young butches under their wings, both socially and sexually. Lesbians (and gay men) in the postwar years often used the language of “bringing out” to describe a more experienced queer person’s introduction of same-sex sexual practice to a less experienced person" (p. 102).

'''Littauer's Approach'''

"I take a social-historical approach that centers the voices of girls, whom I define according to gender self-identification and legal minor designation (i.e., under the age of eighteen or twenty-one, depending on the jurisdiction). I ask what girls and women have said and written about their romantic and erotic feelings for, and consensual sexual relationships with, adult women and what themes or categories we might use to begin to understand what those connections meant and how they shaped the lives and subjectivities of queer girls." (pp. 96-97)

"Based on preliminary research, I argue that girls in age-differentiated sexual relationships with adult women sought affective experiences of pleasure, belonging, and safety, and in many cases also sociosexual mentorship and access to resources, independence, and community. Their ability to achieve these outcomes depended largely on forces and dynamics beyond their control, including adult lesbians’ preference for keeping youth at a distance." (p. 97)

'''Queer Girls Have Always Been There, You Just Didn't Notice'''

"Stories of girls developing “crushes” on adult women are ubiquitous in oral histories, autobiographies, and fiction. Gym teachers, school teachers, scout leaders, camp counselors, and nuns appear over and over again as the objects of girls’ affections and obsessions, which were often romantic and sometimes sexual in nature. Sources from the 1970s suggest marked continuity from earlier decades in the affective experience of “schoolgirl crushes” as well as in the function of such recollections in “coming out” narratives that sought to document, track, and consolidate the emergence of lesbian identity." (p. 97)

"In the 1970s, nationally known lesbian authors such as Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon joined teachers and others in the group of adult potential objects of adolescent girls’ fantasies and desires. Founding the nation’s first lesbian homophile organization, the Daughters of Bilitis, in the 1950s, Martin and Lyon published Lesbian/Woman in 1972 and devoted several pages to the problems facing lesbian teens. Girls from around the country got hold of the book and wrote to the authors, seeking advice and attention. In April of 1976, for instance, a seventeen-year-old named Paulette wrote from Zolfo Springs, Florida. Paulette mentioned early in her letter that she would turn eighteen on 28 June. She wrote: “I know my age is very young, it is a label, I am somewhat more mature in ways than that of my age.” She then raved about the book in emotional and erotic language:

[indented] I have your book in my lap right now and I am looking at the cover and
just by looking at this cover just goes to show you can’t tell a book by it’s
[sic] cover . . . it’s what’s inside that counts, and ''boy'' does this book have
something inside!!! I wish I could give some of this back to you, (this - the
overwhelming feeling I get, wow! it will turn you around. Really it’s a pocketful full of energy, excitement so much, listen it’s beyond words, what can I say I could go on and on and never really define what I feel exactly, ecstatic, turned on tremendously!) I really like you both very much, I like your hearts, I like ''you''. Please write, I hope you do soon. Love be with you, with my love and happiness to you, Paulette.

"Many girls in the mid-to late twentieth century acted on their feelings for adult women and entered into romantic and sexual relationships, usually in their own neighborhoods and communities. A range of sources speak to girls’ experiences in sexual relationships with adult women, who were often married with children and who did not typically identify as lesbians or engage in lesbian subcultures. For teen girls, these relationships served a range of purposes and met a variety of needs, including the opportunity to recognize or validate their romantic and/or sexual desire for women and to enjoy physical and emotional pleasure, connection, and satisfaction. Letters from adolescent girls seeking advice about their sexual relationships with older women in the 1970s suggest, however, that the interpersonal dynamics of age-differentiated couples could be quite complex and challenging, particularly in the absence of community support." (p. 98)

"Another letter speaks to the theme of relationships with older women introducing a mix of insecurity and support. An eighteen-year-old from Daytona, Florida, wrote that after two suicide attempts and a brief stay in a psychiatric ward—she pointed out that it was brief only because she knew better than to admit that she was gay—she went to live with an older, married woman and mother of two who was studying to become a psychologist. Talking openly about her feelings helped her tremendously, she explained. She fell in love with the older woman but kept her feelings to herself and was therefore quite surprised to find that her feelings were reciprocated. The two had an affair that lasted for a few months and that the letter writer described as “beautiful,” but after it ended, loneliness and suicidal thoughts were again taking hold and the letter writer begged Martin and Lyon to help her find other lesbians so that she would have a reason to keep going. She promised to wait for their reply before “doing anything stupid.” The file includes a copy of Lyon and Martin’s reply, in which they gave information about a local chapter of the National Organization for Women known to have several lesbian members and a chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis that was somewhat further away. They urged her to get rid of her gun and to use their help to secure support in finding her way as a lesbian in the world, as so many others had." (pp. 99-100).

'''Stigma and Secondary Harm Endured by Queer Girls'''

"An eighteen-year-old from Denton, Texas, wrote that the age difference between her and her thirty-six-year-old lover, Barbara, sometimes left Barbara feeling “guilty” and worried. She asked:

[indented] Do you know of any couples (homosexual) with a very large difference in ages that have had a long life together? I wish that you could let us know if you do — it would do nice to give Barbara a little extra encouragement. She worries about me more than she does herself and she is afraid something will happen to me because of our love. I hope I don’t take too much of your time, but you are about the only ones I really have to talk to about Barbara and me. It’s really great telling someone how much I love her — cause I do love her an awful lot.

Despite the stress created by their eighteen-year gap in age, the letter writer relished the opportunity to name the love that the two women shared. She also mentioned that she and Barbara were looking to rent a house together, which raises the point that intergenerational relationships created not only emotional and sexual possibilities, but also material opportunities for teen girls." (p. 100).

"In the early 1970s, the two founders and editors of the literary arts journal for lesbians, ''Amazon Quarterly'', traveled across North America to interview subscribers and published excerpts of the interviews in a book called ''The New Lesbians'' [Laurel Galana and Gina Covina, ''The New Lesbians: Interviews with Women Across the U.S. and Canada'' (Berkeley, CA: Moon Books, 1977) - Newgon]. The book offered a lesbian feminist framework that explicitly countered dominant messages about lesbians’ family histories, psychological stability, reliance on gendered “roles,” sex lives, and general health and well-being.

Within this collection is the story of Sylvia, a novelist and “university teacher” in her “early forties” living in British Columbia with her long-term partner, Margaret. Sylvia remembered being attracted to girls by the age of thirteen and recognizing the feelings as sexual at fifteen, when she became involved with a thirty-five-year-old woman who was married with young children. When an interviewer asked how Sylvia felt about the relationship, Sylvia responded: “Just marvelous, I was just awestruck, it was the most marvelous thing to discover and it was an odd relationship.” She continued: “I suppose I really joined the family, there was no hassle, her husband knew what the relationship was and it didn’t bother him.” In fact, she explained, she was “devoted to him, too,” to the point that when Sylvia was staying with the family to help with the children during their mother’s illness, Sylvia became “sexually involved” with her lover’s husband, because “it just seemed the right sort of comforting thing to do.” The interviewer asked if Sylvia felt the need to tell other people in order to gain support, and Sylvia answered “no”; she “had a feeling of secrecy” to protect the relationship, because it was “so absolutely acceptable to all of us” but would almost certainly baffle her parents and grandmother." (pp. 100-101).

"although legal prosecution of women over twenty-one for having sex with legal minors “rarely occurs,” the possibility did exist and that parents of youth sometimes threatened legal action. The mother of Teresa, one of [Susan] Cahn’s white narrators, “said she was going to call the cops and throw my lover in jail,” which ended the relationship. As a result, some adults insisted on keeping their relationships with minors completely secret, which, as Cahn pointed out, “puts a great deal of added pressure on both partners.” Cahn added that older partners sometimes treated younger lovers in “ageist” ways, criticizing them for their lack of experience or expressing frustration that they could not get into bars easily or at all" (p. 104).

Angelica, who was nineteen, felt that she was the one who “set up” the mother–child dynamic in her relationship at sixteen with a woman who was thirty. “I would keep using my age as an excuse” for not knowing things, “setting myself up as a baby needing to be mothered.” In a different relationship, however, the dynamic was reversed, and her older lover resisted other lesbians’ assumptions about the burden of dating someone so young. “I remember how if we would be in the bar and other women would come up and talk about how she’s a chicken hawk . . . and what’s she doing with a baby dyke and don’t you have to teach her everything. . . . She would say, ‘I don’t have to teach her anything. She’s teaching it all to me.’” Angelica’s account reveals the multiple possibilities for age-differentiated relationships, whose internal dynamics were often more subtle or complex than the stereotypes would suggest." (p. 105).

"A few of [Susan] Cahn’s interviewees reflected on the reasons why adult lesbian feminists tended to stigmatize relationships with girls and young women under twenty-one, including internalized homophobia. The myth of pedophilia inaccurately stigmatized gay and lesbian people as child molesters seeking to “recruit” youth into homosexuality and clearly got into the heads of lesbians. Elliot, a seventeen-year-old white lesbian, told Cahn that “I’ve had a couple people just freak out” when they found out her age. “Just feeling like they robbed the cradle. . . . It’s like they can be relating to me just fine. But once they find out I’m 17, these huge stereotypes just come down." (pp. 105-106).

"The sting of adult lesbians’ sexual rejection was especially frustrating to young lesbian feminists who embraced the movement’s political analysis of power and oppression. Like the young lesbian subjects about whom I write in “Your Young Lesbian Sisters,” Cahn’s interviewees understood ageism as limiting girls’ access to resources, community, and their own potential. They
saw it as an oppressive structural force that intersected with sexism and homophobia, and sometimes also racism. For Kim, a black sixteen-year-old, the lesbian community “has showed me what I could have, if I was the right age and the right color and looked right. . . . It’s offered me some things; a sense that there are women here, that there are lesbians here. Whether they’re ''here'' for you is another thing.” Older white lesbians’ attitudes toward Kim’s blackness and youth left Kim feeling alone, even in the midst of lesbian community." (p. 106).

"Emily, one of Cahn’s white interviewees, explained that her current lover, who at thirty was ten years older than herself, “has the old image of the lecherous old woman who seduces the young woman into lesbianism.” Liz also explored the fears driving women’s reluctance to see young lesbians as potential sexual partners: “I think that some people are threatened . . . I know there’s that issue in women’s heads about statutory rape or something . . . and being cradle robbers and all that kind of stuff . . . Maybe they thought I was a little naïve or something, and I’d take chances to do this and that . . . violating them or something.” In Liz’s view, women interested in teen girls feared their own negative views of themselves and perhaps of one another" (p. 106).

'''The Verdict'''

Despite the need for considerable additional research on the subject, it appears that there was
a marked contrast in the ways that gay male and lesbian subcultures regarded sex between adults and minors. Postwar lesbian and 1970s lesbian feminist cultures seem to have discouraged the eroticization of youth and sex between adults and minors, emphasizing the significance of age-based differences in maturity and perspective to a point that young lesbians often found patronizing and disrespectful. Nonetheless, girls experienced feelings of romance and desire toward adult women that they identified as meaningful, and they entered into consensual sexual relationships with older women through which they accessed pleasure, self-understanding, and resources of various kinds. Sexual intimacy with self-identified lesbians who were part of lesbian communities provided even greater benefits, such as sexual and social mentorship and introduction to subcultural networks and shared vocabularies. Intergenerational eroticism was a factor in the lives of teen girls who, whether they lived in Denton, Texas, or Philadelphia, sought out connections to adult women through erotic letters to authors, relationships with neighboring housewives, and sexual instruction from a lesbian couple providing a place to crash on nights away from home. It is time to take the sexual agency of queer youth seriously, which means that many of us have a great deal more research to do." (pp. 106-107).

==New Articles==

As well as the articles on Borneman and the above idea on intergenerational lesbianism, we can probably look at creating a special article for 20th Century pederasty before Stonewall, if you wish to keep reading on this topic. This can take in some of the material in the LGBT-MAP article, allowing it to be more summary in its treatment. Let me know which of these ideas you will like to develop/will be adding to, and I will create the relevant article. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

:Hey. I don't think I'm well-read enough on pre-stonewall 20th century pederasty. I can name-drop famous figures / groups - Oscar Wilde, Andre Gide, John Addington Symonds and the Uranians - but that's about it. My knowledge on each of them is not very deep. People who are more into classic BL literature, well-versed on pederasty would be better. I wonder if the scholar who runs the Greek Love website would want to write something? I don't know them personally, but I've been told by ppl who know them that they're very supportive.

:I think it'd be great to have a separate article dedicated to intergen lesbianism. Littauer provides a good basis, supplemented by people like Pat Califa: "I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful." https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm

:These 2 poss relevant articles I have saved I need to read-through, esp. the 2nd one:

:Martha Vicinus, ‘Distance and Desire: English Boarding-School Friendships’, in The Lesbian Issue: Essays from Signs (Chicago: Chicago University Press, 1985) <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3173613>. Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116 <https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07>

:So yes let's go with intergen lesbianism and I'll try and summarize points by Littauer rather than block quoting her. Also, I'm gonna quickly add citations for the Feminism page. This article could be relevant to both pages, and I need to skim that too: Margaret A. Simons, ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism', in Signs, 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161 <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174730> Beauvoir signed the famous french petition with Foucault et al. about abolishing AOC laws.

::Cool, I mentioned the other topic, because the information you have added to the LGBT-MAP article is reaching critical mass for forking, and could be summarized within the article itself. If more information is found, we will probably have to create a new article and manage it that way. I'll make [[Intergenerational Lesbianism]]. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

==Rotherham Report/Rochdale, etc==

Just did a short media review at [[Research: Commercial and online sexual exploitation]]. Wondering if the topic interests you? I'd like to see somebody go over the report and tease out what was really going on. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 16:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

==Alinka Gearon Paper==

I made some modifications to our citation of this paper after an author's request. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:08, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

===Copy of present text===

I have had to read parts of the paper due to complaints made by the author, and produced the following summary, also detaching the citation from most of the claims made. It seems to also bend to some of the theoretical aspects of her work, as well as our interpretation of the substantive aspects:

:''Others have focused on "trafficked children" ultimately ''detected'' by the system (charities and protective services). By virtue of the fact that the subjects of these studies are nearly always referred following complaints (either by the subjects themselves or an outside party) they will typically be victims of multiple forms of abuse. Nevertheless, in-depth case-studies reveal that the image of the "coercively trafficked" child is an inaccurate trope - one that is abused for political gain. For example, even when they had no economic power to escape the situation (they complied because of false promises of work, etc) minors used their own mental resources to protect themselves and ultimately to identify themselves as victims. Criminalization of minors is also pointed to as a source of harm.<ref>Gearon, A. (2019) [https://doi.org/10.1093/bjc/azy042 Child Trafficking - Young People’s Experiences of Front Line Services in England] in ''The British Journal of Criminology'', 59, 481-500</ref> Much less work concerns "child sex trafficking" in particular, and Agustin-type observational studies of ''youth'' sex workers would be almost impossible because of ethical restrictions. We use a range of sources and invite readers to form their own opinion as to the veracity of the child-saver industry's more outlandish claims.''

[Reference used:] {{reflist}}

Now, it may also be helpful if we could find other case studies on "trafficked" minors identified by agencies and self-report. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 17:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems that use of the word "choice" (active, deliberate, etc) is theoretical in most such publications and not substantive. Gearon insists that it is not applied to minors, but I also added this from UNICEF, which seems to take a completely different line (despite the source interviews being similar in tone):

:''In 2008, UNICEF described this as a "deliberate choice" on the part of trafficked minors in a majority of interviewees.''<ref>[https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/iwp_2008_05.pdf Dottridge, Mike (2008). Young People’s Voices on Child Trafficking: Experiences from South Eastern Europe, Innocenti Working Papers, no. 2008-05]</ref>

[Reference used:] {{reflist}}

Hi,

To be honest, after reading this paper in more detail, I have no issue with removing any reference to this paper from Newgon. In fact, I think it should be removed. The abstract is highly misleading and the article eventually becomes largely in opposition to Newgon's ethos and aims. The narratives included are about minors who do not know where they're going, or what they're going to be doing when they get there.

E.g. quote:
"Contrary to being deemed as ‘consenting’ to their migration, young people’s experiences reveal that they exercised no choice in leaving their home countries. Family members often made the decision to migrate or agreed travel arrangements on their behalf,

So when I was told that I was going with her, to be living with her child living in London, like in village we used to call it like ‘white peoples’ land’ … you don’t really have say on this matter, the adults know what’s best, you carry on, even if you don’t want to go. (Maya)

When my uncle he do a deal with agent … I didn’t have choice … I didn’t choose the country, because my uncle he choose this for me. (Ammar)

Many young people did not know where they were going."

I don't think we need this study on Newgon. If anything, I am surprised at Gearon's finding that "front-line" services interpreted "young people’s migration as voluntary and consensual" in any way. This seems extremely odd.

My concern with "trafficking" is where this term is used by SWERFS/ SWERF esq ppl to encompass any sex work that involves crossing borders. If anything, Gearon's cases are the kind of cases we don't want happening. I think we can remove the reference with no issues, we have a LOT left on that page.

The way Gearon has now been used could be replaced by a citation like this: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/everything-you-think-you_b_9772910

Quote:

"At the federal level any young person involved in commercial sex acts is considered a victim of a severe form of human trafficking. Because prostitution laws are regulated by states, it is not uncommon to have young people being arrested for prostitution-related offenses.

Unfortunately, because their behavior is criminalized and because many of these young people report having experience abuse perpetrated by police officers, they largely do not think of law enforcement as a safety option"

All the best

:I'd like to preface anything related to sex work in particular with what is known about trafficking according to "trafficked children". We can assume that as these are complaint-led reviews and because charities and child protective services typically have a much lower bar of evidence than the criminal system, that this is pretty much the worst kind of substantiated (as in recorded) complaint related to child trafficking into ''developed economies''. I think it's important to have those studies, so I added another one from UNICEF and explained how we are using them in an editorial note.

:As our article concerns Youth Sex Work, anything related to that specific topic should have its own excerpt. We are attempting to inform a conclusion about sex work, although we are obviously a long way away from that. The way I have improved the article is just to make more clear cut distinctions re. how we cite the work. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:10, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

==Feminist Bios==

As per the design of these wiki pages, we will eventually need individual articles on the Feminist authors in [[Feminism]]. This will glue together the excerpts you have taken with some basic biographical information, and the aforementioned article will then be cut down to size, with each author summarized and linked. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 00:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

==Historical and Ethnological Compendium==

Thanks for your submissions. Once I am on my desktop, I will look at some of the formatting on the most recent edits.

I have a long term plan to combine the articles on history and ethnology into one, and fill it with summaries of various literature reviews and a full review of Janssen. We are likely to use the standard article format (as opposed to excerpts) to achieve this, but I will use highlighter to denote three different time periods, probably up to the middle ages, pre Victorian and the modern industrial era. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 12:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

===Siwa===

Do you think there is anything useful in here for our non-western or historical article: [[Media:Siwa today by David Thorstad.pdf|Siwa today]] --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:39, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

:I'm amazed at the Thorstand stuff you're digging up. It's incredible. I'll take a look at this article and see if I find anything to add :)

::Looks like we use the WA Percy version in the history compendium, but a load more references. Maybe we can see what the quote comes from, write a lede and tidy the refs.--[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:18, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

==Feray, Plummer==

Thanks for adding these bios. If possible, could you add some categories to Feray and to Plummer when you have finished editing. Feray has now been tidied up and is ready to be categorized. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Guidance==

Thanks for your recent edits. It would be great if you could have a look here, particularly with respect to internal linking of files. Much like external links in a body of text are rarely superior to a reference list, internal file links should be formatted and not presented as an external link. E.g. <nowiki>[[Media:Wiki.png|Site Logo]]</nowiki>. The prior text in an edit window will result in a link to our site logo with the text "Site Logo" when published. The benefits of this are... firstly that Newgon is not an external. Secondly that if our url changes, the link automatically changes to new domain.net.

[[NewgonWiki:Working standards and technical advice]]

If my eyes are up to the task, I'll go over the edits in a few days and see what I can do. Maybe Helen can also help. On a medical enforced rest here unfortunately. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

"On a medical enforced rest here unfortunately"
> I'm not religious but I pray for your good health! Be safe, be well, and thanks for all you do! - Prue

===Cite a reference as many times as you like===

Thanks for your edits to Ken Plummer. Here is a tip. To cite a ref multiple times, try the following wikitext:

<nowiki><ref name=Google>[http://Google.com Google Website]</ref></nowiki>

Then when you repeat the tag <nowiki><ref name="Google" /></nowiki> after any passage of text for which you wish to use the same citation, the inline citation will point to the same footnote. The footnote will refer back by internal link to each use within the article.

[[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity]] does this frequently with some citations. Open up the edit window and take a look at the wikitext. And then look at the footnote list. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:03, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

===Categorization of archive pages is essential===

Categorization and archiving is absolutely essential to our project. You have uploaded plenty of material that is invisible to our archiving system as a result of failing to categorize or archive it. Please check Helen's recent uploads for an example of how archive material must be categorized, much like articles. All the relevant subcategories can be found here:

[[:Category:Archival]]

Much of that material must also enter the Chronological Archive. But it is your call as to what enters, in line with the chronological archive's focus on activism and texts of import. I can simply not patrol all this content right now due to my health, but thanks for your edits. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 19:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

===A productive exercize===

Thanks for your recent edits. I'm a bit behind with my stylistic and formatting alterations of the recent edits. I'd like to suggest something that might help in learning MediaWiki, because I have a pet theory that you have not looked into it because of the obscurity of this software. That is the "history and diffs" section of this wiki!

For example, go to "recent changes". Click on the "history" link for an article that you have edited recently, when it shows that I have gone in afterwards and corrected some style and formatting. Then click on the "diff" of my edits. This will show you how I have changed the wikicode along with the edit summary I have added. I do believe this is the fastest way to learn good wikicode, and not knowing that these hints and tips exist may be one of the reasons why you do things like adding a link to our own article inside ref tags (unnecessary), or as an external link, which leaves me scratching my head.

The categories topic above can be solved by simply adding <nowiki>[[Category:Nameofcategory]]</nowiki> to the file description when you upload it. This makes it visible to hundreds more readers - i.e. people who use cats to navigate --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 20:14, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice! I'll remember to category archive files in future! Haha, I have looked around the various pages you've spotlighted to me, but you'd be right in that I've been learning by doing, and that I've never contributed to wiki style pages like this before helping out w/ Newgon. I think I'm getting much better at it; now the task is to get quicker at it! Thanks and be well! - Prue

== Eric Gill ==

Thanks for the contributions on [[Eric Gill]]. Please take a look at my changes and edit summaries for my last two edits to the article. This will help you: 1. Link a Wikipedia article simply using wikicode as opposed to an external link. 2. Create a reference that is coded so that you can use it as a citation at multiple points in an article using the <nowiki><ref name="ABCXYZ" /></nowiki> attribute (as opposed to creating notes such as "see reference ABCXYZ". --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:49, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

== Roger Moody ==

Thanks for your article, Roger Moody. We should invent some kind of Wikipedia Barnstar, for all your submissions.

I can see only one issue after my recent edit (description and diffs in article history): That is he is Category:People: Desceased. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 14:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

"We should invent some kind of Wikipedia Barnstar, for all your submissions." > Had to look that up. Thanks pallio it's nice to have your work appreciated; thanks for all you do and yes the edits are all looking good. Prue ~

==Thanks==

Thanks for all your recent edits, I can see it is a lot and will try to go over all of them today.

For now, I have just changed [[Peter Schult]] in one edit. Please take a look at the diffs on that change.

I have deliberately left one thing unattended, too. Can you tell what it is? Hint: it's a header/title near the bottom of the article... --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 11:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

:I believe he may also qualify for <nowiki>[[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: German]]</nowiki>

:It will be great to get [[Ernest Borneman]] finished and categorized. Looks like it just needs some basic changes.

:Above your editing box, you will see a little button with a tiny x followed by a scribble. That is your signature (represented in wikitext as <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>). Print your signature after your comment on talk pages like this. Also indent sequential comments in a talk page convo as I have done with this one. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 11:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

::I'll set us up now, and do the following job. The missing element was the References header, which you just need to put as a separate line before the categories at the end of the article:

::<nowiki>==References==</nowiki>

::The list auto-generates below this heading. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 14:54, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:::Having done this, I have made some changes to [[Text of Beispiel Peter Schult]] including changing the title to reflect that it is an archive article, and removing encyclopedia categories. I have introduced archival categories from [[:Category:Archival]] (including the root). I believe your text will be ready for the chrono archive when it is complete, so you can pre-emptively add it there. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 15:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

==Schult book==

I moved the first section to [[:File:Peter Schult - Pedophilia in Public Discourse.pdf]] so it looks nice on screen in the categories. No need to alter or categorize the other files. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 19:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay I was worried for a second there; had the whole thing written out with all the links, then it said the preface was deleted! XD Uploaded what I'd done to [[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/File:Peter_Schult_-_Pedophilia_in_Public_Discourse.pdf]] --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 19:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:No, just keeping the archive-listed file name presentable. Some people like to use categories to search, and I am not aware of how we can make custom titles override the file name when a file appears in a category. I'll be back on around Friday - trying to give myself a break every week. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

::No worries, I think I'll take a break too. I'm happy with the additions I've been able to make but I'm probably spending a bit ''too much'' time on it. Except the celibate ones, the Famous peds blog is almost completely reproduced on Newgon now. Take care; I hope you're well :) --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 23:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:::Yes, thanks so much. I have requested for the file size limit to be raised by admin. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 00:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

::::If it would be helpful for me to have some level of Admin here to help out and monitor changes, since I've now spent some time creating pages, I'd be happy to offer to help out in some way if that eases the burden on you. It wouldn't be all that hard for me to monitor the addition of wikitext and look over changes as we try to get others in the PCMA etc to contribute) --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 00:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

:::::That would be great. What we really need is a big enough editing team, such that a decent number of editors are familiar with protocols, and can patrol edits, so the material we put out is consistent in style. I can still do that, and will check over all recent material at the weekends. I might make some additions to the style guide and cheat sheet soon, as well. I'll probably also update the category list with the archival and essay categories.

:::::Are you planning to finish your summary of Peter Schult's biography, by the way? I think it might work better as a book review on an encyclopedia page about a book. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 09:22, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

::::::Yes I do plan on continuing the summary of the Schult book. I think it'd be good to label it as 'selected quotes' rather than summary. I've got some more quotes ready, but not skimmed the full book yet. And yes, how can we recruit writers or get people to contribute regularly? We have some very dedicated ppl in the PCMA who are clearly very knowledgeable; it would be great if they could help out more adding info.--[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 03:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

==Listing younger partners in the category==

I have just found that we can list younger partners in this category, without creating an article for them.

[[:Category:People: Adult or Minor sexually attracted to or involved with the other]]

I did this by creating a redirect for Virginia Clemm to Edgar Allan Poe, but including the category in the redirect page. You will see that she now appears in italics, in that list - as she should. It's not a task I would want to do myself (for the whole encyclopedia), but good to see it can be done eventually. I would suggest not using any other categories (especially the main encyclopedia category, history categories, which the article will alreadybe listed in) unless the secondary topic of the article were particularly notable in any given area.

I guess this also means we can create articles on organizations such as Gays Against Groomers, without messing up our categories with a secondary article on Jaimee Michell. But we can still make her appear in our category of unsympathetic people, etc. --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 11:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

==Famous Indians - Bios==

Handsome Jack (who is on a break from frontline activism after the fallout in Matrix) has put forward these famous Indians who had young partners:

*'''Dr. Ambedkar''' - literally the person who wrote India's Constitution, married a 9yo girl, when he was 15
*'''Gangadhar Rao''' (28) who married Rani Laxmibai (very famous figure in India) when she was 13
*'''Gopalrao Joshi''' (29) who married Anandibai Gopal, India's first female doctor (9) --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 12:25, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
*'''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadev_Govind_Ranade Mahadev Govind Ranade]'''

==Another thing maybe==

I now realize that a lot of the new pages are orphans (no links from elsewhere in the wiki) or otherwise have very few links to them. What you could do, maybe, is go through the list of names, and pick a few who are particularly well-known, and search for their name in the search bar. Wherever their name appears in an article (and is not part of an existing link, for example), you can put their name in square brackets, to make the articles more visible. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 20:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks for adding the see alsos, I didn't think of that. I've broken the big lists into two or three columns to make it look nicer. I've also searched the wiki for mentions of people in your articles and put them all in <nowiki>[[square brackets]]</nowiki>. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 14:23, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

==I've been over Schrodinger==

Thanks, the article is very detailed. The changes I made are reflected in my edit summary:

But a few notes -

1. You do not need to use a new blockquote for each line of a quote. In fact, avoid it, since it gives the false impression of multiple quotes. As well as being... just harder for the writer and subsequent editors.

2. Quotes inside blockquotes should be italic, and without quotation marks at the start and end. Ellipses and editors notes should not be in italics. I deliberately left one ellipses in italics. Could you change it to non italic by placing <nowiki>''</nowiki> <text> <nowiki>''</nowiki> either side of it?

3. The references really should have titles - all of them. It's an excellent article, but having naked URLs visible in the footer of the article is bad style and detracts from the rest of the article. Readers assume "the writer is just finding links to cite, and is spamming them into a reference template, not finding out what the cites actually are".

As for point 3, my eyes are past doing that work today. Maybe I can get through the other new articles in faster time tomorrow? --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 20:48, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

:I've made a few further changes and corrected some italics. I'm using the pink highlighter to reduce the amount of bold, and changed your bolds into italics. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 12:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

An important thing about italics and wiki formatting in general (not html fixes like blockquotes and text color), is that it works on a "per line basis".

So, say I want to change the following passage to italics:

asdf

mnbv

This is what I type:

<nowiki>''asdf''</nowiki>

<nowiki>''mnbv''</nowiki>

If I were to type this:

<nowiki>''asdf</nowiki>

<nowiki>mnbv''</nowiki>

I would not get italics

Say I want to remove italics from a [...] on a line that is already italicized. I simply need to put a <nowiki>'' and an ''</nowiki> either side of it to close and reopen the italic passage.

But say the [...] were on a new line altogether, doing that would make it italic, which is unwanted. You would just type [...] with no formatting --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 12:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

==What do you think about [[Michel Foucault]] and [[Alfred Kinsey]]?==

These look like bios we started years ago, but never fully completed.

P.S. I've been thinking about how we reference Wikipedia, and I think it's best as an in-text link. Here's my rationale: Wikipedia pages are ever-changing, and could god forbid be vandalized by people working from here, or removing inconvenient facts. Therefore, we don't know if they will change or stay the same, so a tagged reference is best avoided. The link in-text just says "here is the information, it should back up what we are asserting".

To link a wikipedia page in text, we have the simple wikicode:

<nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Elon Musk|Chief Twit]]</nowiki>

results in:

[[Wikipedia:Elon Musk|Chief Twit]]

--[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

==New Template==

There is a new template to add to most decent size articles concerning academia.

[[:Template:Ac]]

Hopefully adding someone to it is pretty easy, just preview to check that the line isn't too wide. I'll start adding it to a few articles, if they haven't already got a template on, and are big enough to accommodate it. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 19:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

==Archive alert==

I have used the Web Archive to replace lost links in the Tony Duvert article, particularly Extracts from ''Quand mourut Jonathan''.

Please make personal copies if you need to. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:48, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

==Interesting==

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Michael_Davidson --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

==Homosexualities==

What other journals have you got on your radar? I do believe that ''Homosexualities'', ''Journal of LGBT Youth'', ''Journal of Sex Research'', ''Psychological Bulletin'' and ''Archives of Sexual Behavior'' deserve a mention. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:40, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

==Position==

Hi. Would you like me to add you as an editorial lead on the [[Newgon Support Team]] (''Social History and Critical Theory'')? The role is a membership role, entails no responsibilities, but just describes the general purview of an editor's work. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 19:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Sounds great, and apt in my case. So yes go ahead. All the best --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 18:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

==Herman and Brownmiller==

[https://www.simplycharly.com/read/reviews/the-trauma-myth-the-truth-about-the-sexual-abuse-of-children-and-its-aftermat/ This] might interest you:

:''In the 1960s and 1970s, however, the author explains how professional assumptions about child sexual abuse changed, in large part due to the work of child-protection advocates and feminists such as '''Judith Herman and Susan Brownmiller''', who pushed for the end of victim-blaming. By the 1980s and 1990s, sexual abuse was framed as a traumatic event and conceptualized as a form of post-traumatic stress disorder, in large part to protect victims and reclaim the validity of their abuse. In chapters four and five, Clancy sets out to answer the two questions underpinning the book: why does the trauma myth damage victims?'' --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 10:06, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

All I found is that Herman published a lot later, and Brownmiller was an anti-rape feminist of the early 70s, and held media posts in the 60s, which may have allowed her to exert some influence... --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 10:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

==Robert Bonin==

Maybe we should profile him, or the scandal surrounding him. Or at least add it to [[Boston-Boise affair]]. [https://www.greek-love.com/media/PDFs/Mitzel.Boston.Sex.Scandal.pdf]. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

==This may be of interest==

[http://fondationprincessedecroy.eu/001-magazines_pedo_porno-sources.htm] --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

==Gennadium B. Derjágin==

http://samlib.ru/g/galaburda_k_e/materialsaboutgennadiumderjaginhtm.shtml

https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%8F%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

May be worth a short bio. Guy on Yesmap News room has posted a load of links (in Russian) suggesting he has been involved in a sex scandal (consensual) with a boy. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

==Jacques Dugué==

Ever heard of him? Mentioned in the De Orio thesis mentioned in my Lloyd Martin article. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 17:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Never heard of him. But that doesn't mean we can't find out more! :p In fairness, I'd not heard of any of the Frenchmen associated with the 2 French groups GRED or CRIES.--[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 15:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

:https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Jacques_Dugu%C3%A9 --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

==Alim Khan==

A significant political figure of last century who had a harem of 200 boys! May interest you - [https://thejinnandtonic.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/the-gay-emir-of-bokhara-and-his-dancing-boys/] [https://edchow.wordpress.com/2015/05/29/some-hints-on-the-history-of-bacha-bazi-1865-1913/] --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks, have just had a look and will read the 1st in more detail later. I wonder if we should do a general page about the practice of dancing boys in history? I am fairly sure it's been common in a lot of now-western societies? Perhaps we can mention it w/ a brief quote / quotes on the non western intergen page, and link out to other info? But yes, defo interesting, and Alim Khan sounds like someone we can make a brief page on...--[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 15:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

::[[Pederasty in Islam]] details most of this, but I agree we need separate pages. We need a section on Islam in [[Youth-Adult Marriage]]. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 20:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

==Wanted Article Proposal==

Hi Prue, interested in writing an article for what's currently at the top of the Most Wanted Pages. It would be very short, just a matter of their standard boiler-plate contact info. This would be a double-plus-discretion issue; it goes without saying that I would want to run it by you . . . and them . . . before posting anything, even a draft. One doesn't want to give offense. Do you have an email to where we could discuss the early drafts privately?
[[User:Didaskalosmrm|Didaskalosmrm]] ([[User talk:Didaskalosmrm|talk]]) 23:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

User talk:Prue

2023-10-31T23:30:31Z

Didaskalosmrm:

User:Didaskalosmrm

2023-10-31T04:18:31Z

Didaskalosmrm: Created page with "Hello, NewGon. Been at BoyChat since 1999. Have a Ph.D. in trollology from Encyclopedia Dramatica. Mostly focused on high-end classical scholarship & performance, but also thoroughly enjoy the low-brow world of internet baby-talk, memes and trolling and all. Very keen on the upcoming identity battles, which I dub: #PedoSchwing2025 if conservative opposition collapses quietly, or #PedoFloyd if it doesn't, and somebody from Team BL plays the fool and gets martyred. I te..."