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	<updated>2026-07-27T05:57:22Z</updated>
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		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Template:Ac&amp;diff=34725</id>
		<title>Template:Ac</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Template:Ac&amp;diff=34725"/>
		<updated>2026-07-12T12:25:44Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
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{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Research topics&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Research|NewgonWiki Research Project]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Academics (present)&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Steven Angelides|Angelides]], [[Helmut Graupner|Graupner]], [[Philip Tromovitch|Tromovitch]], [[Allyn Walker|Walker]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Charles Moser|Moser]], [[Karl Andersson|Andersson]], [[Judith Butler|Butler]], [[Jacob Breslow|Breslow]], [[Gayle Rubin|Rubin]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Stephen Kershnar|Kershnar]], [[Peter Singer|Singer]], [[Bruce Rind|Rind]], [[Diederik Janssen|Janssen]], [[Mark Smith|Smith]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Thomas Hubbard|Hubbard]], [[Hoko Horii|Horii]], [[Gilbert Herdt|Herdt]], [[Lee Edelman|Edelman]], [[Elizabeth Loftus|Loftus]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Rachel Hope Cleves|Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett|Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal|Arce Vidal]], [[Bill Thompson|Thompson]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Slavoj Žižek|Žižek]], [[Theo Sandfort|Sandfort]], [[Kieran McCartan|McCartan]], [[Edmund White|White]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Simon Goldhill|Goldhill]], [[Juliette Rennes|Rennes]], [[Kerry Robinson|Robinson]], [[Kathryn Bond Stockton|Stockton]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Pierre Verdrager|Verdrager]], [[Michael Seto|Seto]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Valerie Sinason|Sinason]], [[Gene Abel|Abel]], [[Alvin Malesky|Malesky]], [[David Finkelhor|Finkelhor]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Academics (inactive)&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Terry Leahy|Leahy]], [[Gary Dowsett|Dowsett]], [[Pat Sikes|Sikes]], [[Patrick Califia|Califia]], [[Frans Gieles|Gieles]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Richard Yuill|Yuill]], [[James Kincaid|Kincaid]], [[Camille Paglia|Paglia]], [[Thore Langfeldt|Langfeldt]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[LeRoy G. Schultz|Schultz]], [[Walter L. Williams|Williams]], [[Rudiger Lautmann|Lautmann]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Marjan Sax|Sax]], [[Warren Farrell|Farrell]], [[Joel Best|Best]], [[Philip Jenkins|Jenkins]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Chin-Keung Li|C. K. Li]], [[Paul Okami|Okami]], [[Allie C. Kilpatrick|Kilpatrick]], [[Martin Dannecker|Dannecker]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Dean Durber|Durber]], [[Gunter Schmidt|Schmidt]], [[Stevi Jackson|Jackson]], [[Carolyn Cocca|Cocca]]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Mary de Young|De Young]], [[Stephanie Dallam|Dallam]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Michel Foucault|Foucault]], [[Alfred Kinsey|Kinsey]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg|Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Hubert Kennedy|Kennedy]], [[William Percy|Percy]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
[[David Sonenschein|Sonenschein]], [[Beatrice Faust|Faust]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster|Foster]], [[Donald Mader|Mader]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Gert Hekma|Hekma]], [[Floyd Martinson|Martinson]], [[Vern Bullough|Bullough]], [[Frits Bernard|Bernard]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Warren Johansson|Johansson]], [[Guy Hocquenghem|Hocquenghem]], [[John P. De Cecco|De Cecco]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[René Schérer|Schérer]], [[Helmut Kentler|Kentler]], [[Volkmar Sigusch|Sigusch]], [[Michael C. Baurmann|Baurmann]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Sir Richard Burton|Burton]], [[Leonard Davis|Davis]], [[Katharina Rutschky|Rutschky]], [[Preben Hertoft|Hertoft]], [[Eberhard Schorsch|Schorsch]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc|Ogrinc]], [[Ken Plummer|Plummer]], [[Jeffrey Weeks|Weeks]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[John Money|Money]], [[Tony Duvert|Duvert]], [[Michael Ingram|Ingram]], [[Richard Green|Green]], [[Harris Mirkin|Mirkin]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[William Simon|Simon]], [[John Gagnon|Gagnon]], [[Donald West|West]], [[Tom Reeves|Reeves]], [[Charles Shively|Shively]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[David T. Evans|Evans]], [[John Holt|Holt]], [[Clarence Tripp|Tripp]], [[Paul D. Hardman|Hardman]], [[Wilhelm Reich|Reich]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Herman Musaph|Musaph]], [[Thomas Szasz|Szasz]], [[Lars Ullerstam|Ullerstam]], [[Joan Nestle|Nestle]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Judianne Densen-Gerber|Densen-Gerber]], [[Judith Reisman|Reisman]], [[Charles Whitfield|Whitfield]], [[Paul Fink|Fink]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Related topics&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Queer Theory]], [[Feminism]], [[Consent]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Minor-adult sex]], [[Child Sexual Abuse|CSA]], [[Paraphilia]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Sexceptionalism]], [[Sexualization]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Heteronormativity]], [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|Trans youth]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Hebephilia]], [[Pedophilia]], [[Teleiophilia]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Censorship]], [[Chris Brand]], [[Moral panic]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Preventionism]], [[Minor Attracted Person]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Masturbation]], [[Inner child]], [[Child Sexual Behaviour Inventory|CSBI]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[IICSA]], [[Child Pornography|CSAM]], [[Covert incest]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Pedophilia themed OCD|POCD]], [[Teen Dating Violence]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Repressed memory]], [[Anal wink]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Kent State Study]], [[Rind et al]], [[CSA Accommodation Syndrome|CSAAS]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[COPINE Scale]], [[Cognitive distortion (pseudoscience)|Cognitive distortion]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Adolescence]], [[Abel screening]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Actuarial testing]], [[Penile Plethysmography|Plethysmography]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Erwin Schrodinger]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[David Riegel]], [[Jordan Peterson]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Wikipedia censorship of MAP related topics|Wikipedia]], [[Sexual rites of passage|Rites of passage]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Medicalism]], [[Evolving capacity]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Nocebogenic harm]], [[Moral Recruitment]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Intrinsic harm]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Orgs and Publications&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Journal of Homosexuality|JoH]], [[Archives of Sexual Behavior|ASB]], [[Paidika]], [[Journal of Controversial Ideas|JCI]], [[Fund for Scientific Research of Sexuality|FSRS]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[B4U-ACT]], [[Percy Foundation|PF]], [[Ipce]], [[AASECT]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[NARTH]], [[The Leadership Council|TLC]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Office of Justice Programs|OJP]], [[NSPCC]], [[American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children|ASPAC]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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|}&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Herman_Musaph&amp;diff=34724</id>
		<title>Herman Musaph</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Herman_Musaph&amp;diff=34724"/>
		<updated>2026-07-12T12:24:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:Ac}}Prof. &#039;&#039;&#039;Herman Musaph&#039;&#039;&#039; (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With [[John Money]], he co-authored the influential &#039;&#039;Handbook of Sexology&#039;&#039; (1977) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and sexual development, linking touch deprivation to later abnormal behaviors. This book was a 1,402-page compendium which synthesized global research on human sexuality, spanning biology, psychosexual development, and disorders; it was later translated into multiple languages and praised as a foundational collection for the field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the same year, Musaph founded the [[NVSH|Dutch Society for Sexual Reform]] (NVSH), which was notably sympathetic to non-normative sexual identities and practices, including [[MAP]]s. His efforts culminated in the establishment of the Dr. Herman Musaph Prize for Medical Sexology in 1991, awarded by Dutch medical bodies to recognize advances in the discipline. Musaph&#039;s approach prioritized causal links between psychological trauma and sexual expression, critiquing overly moralistic frameworks in favor of observable physiological and relational dynamics. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Musaph made supportive statements about [[pedophilia]] and [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|non-coercive age-gap sex]] in various publications and outlets.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See [https://brongersma.info/Category:Herman_Musaph &amp;quot;Herman Musaph&amp;quot; in the Brongersma online archive]. [Results will require translation for non-Dutch speakers]. If you can read Dutch, see, for example, Artikel [https://brongersma.info/Klinische_lessen_-_Pedofilie &#039;Klinische lessen - Pedofilie&#039;] door Prof. Dr. H. Musaph; Nederlands Tijdschrift voor Geneeskunde 124, nr. 51; 1980.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [[Theo Sandfort]] cited Musaph in some of his past writings on [[pedophilia]], and it is likely that Musaph at one point had considerable impact and influence on Dutch academic and intellectual opinion, having been a senior, well-respected and well-published figure by the time he made non-condemnatory statements about pedophilia. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was the winner of the Magnus Hirschfeld Medal in 1990, and the Herman Musaph Foundation for Psychodermatology is named in his honor. Musaph fell ill during a meeting of the European Society in Paris in late 1992. He died on 18 November 1992 in Amsterdam, aged 77, from heart failure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Research]][[Category:Research on Minor Attraction]][[Category:Research on &amp;quot;Child Molesters&amp;quot;]][[Category:Research into effects on Children]][[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Dutch]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Popular Authors]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Herman_Musaph&amp;diff=34723</id>
		<title>Herman Musaph</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Herman_Musaph&amp;diff=34723"/>
		<updated>2026-07-12T12:24:33Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Prof. &#039;&#039;&#039;Herman Musaph&#039;&#039;&#039; (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With [[John Money]], he co-authored the influential &#039;&#039;Handbook of Sexology&#039;&#039; (1977) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and sexual development, linking touch deprivation to later abnormal behaviors. This book was a 1,402-page compendium which synthesized global research on human sexuality, spanning biology, psychosexual development, and disorders; it was later translated into multiple languages and praised as a foundational collection for the field.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the same year, Musaph founded the [[NVSH|Dutch Society for Sexual Reform]] (NVSH), which was notably sympathetic to non-normative sexual identities and practices, including [[MAP]]s. His efforts culminated in the establishment of the Dr. Herman Musaph Prize for Medical Sexology in 1991, awarded by Dutch medical bodies to recognize advances in the discipline. Musaph&#039;s approach prioritized causal links between psychological trauma and sexual expression, critiquing overly moralistic frameworks in favor of observable physiological and relational dynamics. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Musaph made supportive statements about [[pedophilia]] and [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|non-coercive age-gap sex]] in various publications and outlets.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See [https://brongersma.info/Category:Herman_Musaph &amp;quot;Herman Musaph&amp;quot; in the Brongersma online archive]. [Results will require translation for non-Dutch speakers]. If you can read Dutch, see, for example, Artikel [https://brongersma.info/Klinische_lessen_-_Pedofilie &#039;Klinische lessen - Pedofilie&#039;] door Prof. Dr. H. Musaph; Nederlands Tijdschrift voor Geneeskunde 124, nr. 51; 1980.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [[Theo Sandfort]] cited Musaph in some of his past writings on [[pedophilia]], and it is likely that Musaph at one point had considerable impact and influence on Dutch academic and intellectual opinion, having been a senior, well-respected and well-published figure by the time he made non-condemnatory statements about pedophilia. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was the winner of the Magnus Hirschfeld Medal in 1990, and the Herman Musaph Foundation for Psychodermatology is named in his honor. Musaph fell ill during a meeting of the European Society in Paris in late 1992. He died on 18 November 1992 in Amsterdam, aged 77, from heart failure.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Research]][[Category:Research on Minor Attraction]][[Category:Research on &amp;quot;Child Molesters&amp;quot;]][[Category:Research into effects on Children]][[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Dutch]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Popular Authors]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Herman_Musaph&amp;diff=34722</id>
		<title>Herman Musaph</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Herman_Musaph&amp;diff=34722"/>
		<updated>2026-07-12T12:13:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: Created page with &amp;quot;Prof. &amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Herman Musaph&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039; (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist.   In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With John Money, he co-authored the influential &amp;#039;&amp;#039;Handbook of Sexology&amp;#039;&amp;#039; (1977, later translated into multiple languages) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and...&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;Prof. &#039;&#039;&#039;Herman Musaph&#039;&#039;&#039; (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With [[John Money]], he co-authored the influential &#039;&#039;Handbook of Sexology&#039;&#039; (1977, later translated into multiple languages) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and sexual development, linking touch deprivation to later abnormal behaviors. In the same year, he founded the [[NVSH|Dutch Society for Sexual Reform]] (NVSH), which was notably sympathetic to non-normative sexual identities and practices, including [[MAP]]s. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was the winner of the Magnus Hirschfeld Medal in 1990, and the Herman Musaph Foundation for Psychodermatology is named in his honor.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Research]][[Category:Research on Minor Attraction]][[Category:Research on &amp;quot;Child Molesters&amp;quot;]][[Category:Research into effects on Children]][[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Dutch]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Popular Authors]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34704</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34704"/>
		<updated>2026-07-07T15:09:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:Ac}}__NOTOC__[[wikipedia:Joan_Nestle|&#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;]] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by [[Feminism|feminist]] civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [[wikipedia:Butch_and_femme|Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture]] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [[wikipedia:Feminist_sex_wars|feminist sex wars]] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nestle, [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;] (1987). [Annas Archive PDF link].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Various editions are available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina&#039;s husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pornography [[Feminism|feminism]]. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the [[wikipedia:1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality|famous Barnard Conference of 1982]] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Template:Ac&amp;diff=34703</id>
		<title>Template:Ac</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Template:Ac&amp;diff=34703"/>
		<updated>2026-07-07T15:08:33Z</updated>

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[[Gert Hekma|Hekma]], [[Floyd Martinson|Martinson]], [[Vern Bullough|Bullough]], [[Frits Bernard|Bernard]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Warren Johansson|Johansson]], [[Guy Hocquenghem|Hocquenghem]], [[John P. De Cecco|De Cecco]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[René Schérer|Schérer]], [[Helmut Kentler|Kentler]], [[Volkmar Sigusch|Sigusch]], [[Michael C. Baurmann|Baurmann]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Sir Richard Burton|Burton]], [[Leonard Davis|Davis]], [[Katharina Rutschky|Rutschky]], [[Preben Hertoft|Hertoft]], [[Eberhard Schorsch|Schorsch]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc|Ogrinc]], [[Ken Plummer|Plummer]], [[Jeffrey Weeks|Weeks]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[John Money|Money]], [[Tony Duvert|Duvert]], [[Michael Ingram|Ingram]], [[Richard Green|Green]], [[Harris Mirkin|Mirkin]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[William Simon|Simon]], [[John Gagnon|Gagnon]], [[Donald West|West]], [[Tom Reeves|Reeves]], [[Charles Shively|Shively]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[David T. Evans|Evans]], [[John Holt|Holt]], [[Clarence Tripp|Tripp]], [[Paul D. Hardman|Hardman]], [[Wilhelm Reich|Reich]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Thomas Szasz|Szasz]], [[Lars Ullerstam|Ullerstam]], [[Joan Nestle|Nestle]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Judianne Densen-Gerber|Densen-Gerber]], [[Judith Reisman|Reisman]], [[Charles Whitfield|Whitfield]], [[Paul Fink|Fink]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Related topics&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Queer Theory]], [[Feminism]], [[Consent]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Minor-adult sex]], [[Child Sexual Abuse|CSA]], [[Paraphilia]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Sexceptionalism]], [[Sexualization]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Heteronormativity]], [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|Trans youth]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Hebephilia]], [[Pedophilia]], [[Teleiophilia]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Censorship]], [[Chris Brand]], [[Moral panic]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Preventionism]], [[Minor Attracted Person]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Masturbation]], [[Inner child]], [[Child Sexual Behaviour Inventory|CSBI]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[IICSA]], [[Child Pornography|CSAM]], [[Covert incest]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Pedophilia themed OCD|POCD]], [[Teen Dating Violence]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Repressed memory]], [[Anal wink]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Kent State Study]], [[Rind et al]], [[CSA Accommodation Syndrome|CSAAS]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[COPINE Scale]], [[Cognitive distortion (pseudoscience)|Cognitive distortion]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Adolescence]], [[Abel screening]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Actuarial testing]], [[Penile Plethysmography|Plethysmography]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Erwin Schrodinger]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[David Riegel]], [[Jordan Peterson]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Wikipedia censorship of MAP related topics|Wikipedia]], [[Sexual rites of passage|Rites of passage]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Medicalism]], [[Evolving capacity]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Nocebogenic harm]], [[Moral Recruitment]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Intrinsic harm]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
|}&lt;br /&gt;
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{| class=&amp;quot;collapsible collapsed&amp;quot; style=&amp;quot;background: inherit; width:100%;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
! &amp;lt;u&amp;gt;Orgs and Publications&amp;lt;/u&amp;gt; &amp;amp;nbsp;&lt;br /&gt;
|-&lt;br /&gt;
| &lt;br /&gt;
[[Journal of Homosexuality|JoH]], [[Archives of Sexual Behavior|ASB]], [[Paidika]], [[Journal of Controversial Ideas|JCI]], [[Fund for Scientific Research of Sexuality|FSRS]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[B4U-ACT]], [[Percy Foundation|PF]], [[Ipce]], [[AASECT]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;hr&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[NARTH]], [[The Leadership Council|TLC]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Office of Justice Programs|OJP]], [[NSPCC]], [[American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children|ASPAC]]&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor&amp;diff=34675</id>
		<title>Testimony: Adult Female with Minor</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor&amp;diff=34675"/>
		<updated>2026-07-02T20:48:58Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:A&amp;amp;T}}We have divided this page into Lesbian and Boy/Woman experiences, and will later divide it by era.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Lesbian minor-adult experiences==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[https://fstube.net/w/qrhvdKZZdf8STHUnR9Da89 Video excerpts from the Canal F Channel article show] the story of a 13-year-old girl who had a consensual love relationship with her teacher.&#039;&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
*:She initiated the relationship and did not see it as interfering with its pedagogical function. The relationship between the two, however, was forcibly interrupted by a complaint from the teenager&#039;s mother and the girlfriend was accused of rape of a vulnerable person, even under strong protests from the alleged victim.&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Amy (16, [https://www.brongersma.info/images/Anthology_01.pdf commenting on a relationship with her teacher when aged 12])  in &amp;quot;One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I am a sixteen‑year‑old lesbian.  I have been a lesbian since I was twelve.  I had known my dance teacher for three years before she brought me out. I was very attracted to her when I first saw her, and from then on, I grew to be more and more in love with her. When I was ten, I had a crush on a friend of my older sister, and some time after that another crush on a cousin of mine. But these didnʹt last long. I always wanted to be near my teacher, dance well for her, and have her touch me! Often while falling asleep at night I would think about her holding me in her arms while Iʹd go to sleep or about her kissing me. I didnʹt know anything about lesbians then, so I didnʹt associate my feelings with anything but my love for her. We became lovers the weekend I was asked to give a special dance presentation in another city.  My dance instructor chose me and accompanied me there. She was 23. After the performance, we returned to our room.  She was elated with my reception, and hugged me and told me how good I was. I felt so good being held by her, being so close to her; secure in the arms of a woman I had admired and loved for three years. Her eyes were so alive, so exciting; her smile so sensuous.  When she said, ʺLet me help you take this off,ʺ I could only hope something might happen. I let my arms hang loose as she slipped the leotards over my shoulders, then I cooperated with her so my arms could be freed, leaving the costume hanging at my waist, with my breasts bare. ʺYou are so pretty,ʺ she said, placing her hands on my neck and then running them down my chest and then running them down my chest, over my breasts and then cupping them in her hands. I loved what she was doing, especially when she licked her index finger and began rubbing my left nipple, making it hard. She did the same with the right one, and I held her tightly around the waist. ʺDoes this feel good?ʺ she asked. ʺYes, donʹt stop.ʺ Then she took a nipple in each hand and rolled them between her fingers. At the same time she moved closer to me.  From the waist down we were touching; from the waist up, separated enough for her to get her hands on my breasts. Somehow our lips met, tentative at first and then we kissed passionately with her tongue edging its way into my mouth. I began sucking her tongue, and for the first time I felt tingly all over.  My next sensation was our deep breathing, then I felt her hands move from my front to my back, and she pressed tighter to me. Then she moved her hands down to my butt, massaging, and pushing my pelvis into hers.  When I felt some thrusts of her pelvis against mine, my eyes opened wide. She responded by saying, ʺYou really turn me on...do you like this?ʺ ʺOh, yes.ʺ She said ʺLetʹs take this off,ʺ referring to the costume still covering my bottom. Down it came, and I stepped out of it. She held me at arms length, saying, ʺI want to look at you.ʺ Her hands moved from my neck, to my shoulders, down over my nipples to my waist; one hand on each side. Then she told me I was sexy and moved her right hand down my stomach and lower. I knew what she was going to do, hoping those sensations I had felt before would be even better.  They were, as she concentrated on my clitoris with a circular motion, slipping her middle finger between my lips and occasionally into me. ʺI want to make love to you. Letʹs go to bed.ʺ We continued that night, all weekend and for almost three years until I had to move with my family. I became a lesbian and a woman that weekend!&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Note that this case has received commentary in academia by Lauren Jae Gutterman, in Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/recycle-bin/is-not-okay/t.28768307_526/ Post by &amp;quot;Self-Rolled Poison&amp;quot;] in discussion of pedophilia is not okay in a forum on Gaia Online, June 30, 2007.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A 13-year-old girl writes about having &amp;quot;a number of perfectly healthy sexual relationships with adults … [including a current] relationship with a sixteen year-old girl who I understand and who understands me on a level unparalleled by what I believe I could reach with anyone my age.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/heidi.htm Interview: Heidi], from &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039; Vol. 2 No.4, Winter 1992, pp. 27-29.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A 24-year-old woman looks back on the fling she had with a teacher when she was 13. &amp;quot;By final exam time I couldn&#039;t concentrate at all. I was dreaming about her. I saw her everywhere; I couldn&#039;t think of anything else. During the math exam I took a compass and scratched the first letter of her name in my hand. It&#039;s still there, you can see it when it&#039;s cold. I was so in love with this woman! [...] One day when I had gone to the park again with her and her class, we started hugging and kissing. I think she started it but I didn&#039;t say no. I had kissed boys, but I was never in love with them. This was totally different. I was in love with her, so it felt much more intense, more exciting, because it was so secretive. [...] Looking back, I think I would have liked to have had sex with her. At that time it was not the most important thing for me. I don&#039;t know how much I knew about sex at the age of thirteen. I think I would have been afraid--afraid, that is, of not knowing how to do it or how to do it right. I had read about sex and heard about it on TV. But to actually do it? On the other hand, she was so gorgeous, it would have been wonderful if we could have been close, to feel her without her clothes. She meant everything to me. I really regret that we didn&#039;t do it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.martijn.org/info/Martijn/martijn03.pdf Anna in Martijn] (PDF, 8 Mb), January 1981, page 18-19, in Dutch.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A woman talks about her teenage love affair with a music teacher in her school. She courted the teacher innocently for about a year and they developed a close friendship. When the teacher was ill and the girl was comforting her at her home, the teacher initiated some kissing and sexual stroking. The girl enjoyed this and later took to intiating such activity herself, although she did find the teacher&#039;s orgasms frightening. The relationship began to attract attention from others at school, which created presure to end it, which they did with some difficulty.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule] (novelist) from &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Certainly my own initiation came long before I was legally adult. Though a number of males around my age offered to participate, a woman ten years my senior was &amp;quot;responsible,&amp;quot; at my invitation and encouragement. The only fault I find with that part of my sexual education was the limit her guilt and fear put on our pleasure, the heterosexual pressure even she felt required to put on me. What she did &amp;quot;for my own good&amp;quot; caused both of us pain. If I were to improve on that experience now, it would not be to protect children from adult seduction but to make adults easier to seduce, less burdened with fear or guilt, less defended by hypocrisy.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Catherine N.X.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Catherine N.X. is a 19 year old girl whose girllove relationship [with her mother] started at age 8 and continues happily to this day&amp;quot; [HFP main page]. She writes a column for the website, called [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-Cat.htm Ask Cat!]. For her view of her relationship, see her answers to the letter from [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-Cat-004.htm Rainer]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm Beth Kelly (feminist)], quoted in &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039;. Originally published as &amp;quot;On woman/girl love, or lesbians do &amp;quot;do it&amp;quot;&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979. &#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;But what about Beth Kelly, now mature in years, and a radical lesbian feminist, who, as a &#039;precocious&#039; eight-year-old, developed a relationship with a grown woman? She writes: &lt;br /&gt;
*:&#039;The first woman I ever loved sexually was my great-aunt; our feelings for each other were deep, strong, and full. The fact that she was more than fifty years older than I did not affect the bond that grew between us. And, yes, I knew what I was doing - every step of the way - even though I had not, at the time, learned many of the words with which to speak of these things. &lt;br /&gt;
*:&#039;Aunt Addie was a dynamic, intelligent, and creative woman - who refused, all her life, to be cowed by convention. In an extended family where women played out &amp;quot;traditional&amp;quot; housewifely roles to the hilt, she stood out, a beacon of independence and strength. She was a nurse in France during the First World War, had travelled, read books, and lived for over twenty years in a monogamous relationship with another woman. Her lover&#039;s death pre-dated the start of our sexual relationship by about two years. But we had always been close and seen a great deal of each other. In the summers, which my mother, brother and I always spent at her seashore home, we were together daily. In other seasons, she would drive to visit us wherever we were living, and often stayed for a month or so at a time.&lt;br /&gt;
*:&#039;I adored her; that&#039;s all there was to it. I had never been taught at home that heterosexual acts or other body functions were dirty or forbidden, and I&#039;d been isolated enough from other children to manage to miss a lot of the usual sexist socialisation learned in play. It never occurred to me that it might be considered &amp;quot;unnatural&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;antisocial&amp;quot; to kiss or touch or hold the person I loved, and I don&#039;t think that Addie was terribly concerned by such things either. I do know that I never felt pressured or forced by any sexual aspects of the love I felt for her. I think I can safely say, some twenty years later, that I was never exploited physically emotionally, or intellectually - in the least.&#039;  &lt;br /&gt;
*:As so often happens, this joyous liaison eventually foundered on the rocks of parental disapproval, when Beth&#039;s mother chanced upon her and Addie in bed together.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hsxarc26.htm Lesbian Connection, Nov-Dec 1997].&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I have always been open with my daughter about my lesbianism. While I would never try to manipulate her sexuality, I am very proud to be the lesbian mother of a lesbian daughter! At age nine she started having sex with other girls with my support and approval. My daughter looks femme, yet acts very butch and is completely secure in her sexuality. Her early experiences were with girls at school, in the neighborhood, on sports teams, etc. Actually, she had a lot of them. Then at age 12 she developed a crush on one of my friends. She told me about her feelings, and I replied directly and emphatically that I approved. Since that time she has mostly dated adult women. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are lots of lesbians who include teenage girls among the types of women they find appealing, sexually and otherwise. As teens, some lesbians had their own loving sexual encounters with adult women. It is hypocritical for them to now deny that same opportunity to contemporary teenage lesbians. To me the ones being controlling and manipulative are those who tell the teens they must not have sex with adult women. Now that is control! Rather than labelling them as &amp;quot;baby dykes&amp;quot; and dismissing them, we should encourage girls to come out and support them through mentoring relationships (and yes, even intimate relationships with adult lesbians when the feelings are mutual). My wife and I have dedicated ourselves to being good role models for these girls. We refuse to dismiss or minimize their sexuality, and we support their inherent right to express it, even with adult women. &#039;Monica&#039;, Oklahoma City, OK.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;14-year-old girl with Alisha Nicole Smith, 20, detailed in: DeLea, Pete. &amp;quot;[http://web.archive.org/web/20100214172111/http://www.dnronline.com/news_details.php?AID=37082&amp;amp;CHID=2 Woman Admits To Relationship With Girl, 14: Minor Says She Is Not A Victim]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Daily News-Record&#039;&#039;, April 15 2009.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;The girl reported that she had taken nude photos of herself and sent the pictures to Smith&#039;s cell phone. The 14-year-old told investigators sending nude pictures was a &amp;quot;normal part of their relationship,&amp;quot; according to court documents. [...] The girl told investigators she doesn&#039;t believe she is a victim. Smith admitted to the relationship and told investigators she didn&#039;t force the girl to do anything she didn&#039;t want to do.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kaitlyn-hunt-plea-deal-jail-four-months_n_4036862 Kaitlyn Hunt.]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Hunt was 18 years old when she allegedly began a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old girl. Both Hunt and her girlfriend were students at Sebastian River High School in Sebastian, Fla., a small town about 90 miles outside Orlando. Hunt&#039;s mother, Kelley Hunt-Smith, has said the relationship was consensual. [...] The case began in the fall of 2012, when the 14-year-old girl&#039;s parents pressed charges against Hunt and petitioned the school board to have her expelled. &amp;quot;These people never came to us as parents, never tried to speak to us ... and tell us they had a problem with the girls dating,&amp;quot; Hunt-Smith wrote in a statement once posted on Facebook. &amp;quot;They were out to destroy my daughter. [They] feel like my daughter &#039;made&#039; their daughter gay.&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Littauer, Amanda. (2020) [https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s], in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1, 95-108&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&#039;&#039;&#039;Lisa (14-17 with a woman of 28).&#039;&#039;&#039; &amp;quot;Relationships with adults sometimes helped teens figure out what forms of intimacy they wanted. Adult partners could draw on experience that youth did not have, not only sexual but also emotional, relational, and cultural. Lisa, a black lesbian whom I interviewed about her childhood on the South Side of Chicago, spoke at length about a sexual relationship she shared with a twenty-eight-year-old woman when she was still in high school [14-17 years old - NewgonWiki] and subject to her mother’s rules and curfew. Lisa had prior sexual experience with age peers, but her experience with this older lover was quite different. “She was a woman, like an adult woman, a real woman,” Lisa recalled with a smile. “She was sensitive. She was gentle. She was open.” Lisa also described her as “warm” and “nurturing.” Lisa described herself as “large” and her lover as significantly larger than herself; her lover was comfortable in her own skin and with asking for what she wanted, and she was sexually responsive and enthusiastic. “It was fulfilling. It was. It was all of the things that I think I had imagined.” Lisa’s lover encouraged and supported her. Even through ups and downs and breaks in the relationship, Lisa credits it with helping her get into college&amp;quot; (p. 98-99)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&#039;&#039;&#039;Jeanne (14 with her 25-year-old neighbor, a mother of 2).&#039;&#039;&#039; &amp;quot;Jeanne reported that Paula had helped her work through her feelings, stop using drugs, and come out to her friends, who reacted supportively. Three years after the breakup, Jeanne wrote: “She is one of my closest friends.” (p. 99).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&#039;&#039;&#039;Sylvia (15 with a 35-year-old mother).&#039;&#039;&#039; &amp;quot;Sylvia remembered being attracted to girls by the age of thirteen and recognizing the feelings as sexual at fifteen, when she became involved with a thirty-five-year-old woman who was married with young children. When an interviewer asked how Sylvia felt about the relationship, Sylvia responded: “Just marvelous, I was just awestruck, it was the most marvelous thing to discover and it was an odd relationship.” She continued: “I suppose I really joined the family, there was no hassle, her husband knew what the relationship was and it didn’t bother him.” In fact, she explained, she was “devoted to him, too,” to the point that when Sylvia was staying with the family to help with the children during their mother’s illness, Sylvia became “sexually involved” with her lover’s husband, because “it just seemed the right sort of comforting thing to do.” The interviewer asked if Sylvia felt the need to tell other people in order to gain support, and Sylvia answered “no”; she “had a feeling of secrecy” to protect the relationship, because it was “so absolutely acceptable to all of us” but would almost certainly baffle her parents&amp;quot; (p. 101)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&#039;&#039;&#039;Carmen Vázquez (16 - helped to found the San Francisco Women’s Building in the 1970s).&#039;&#039;&#039; &amp;quot;There was this woman Toni, who’s a friend of the family, who was a closeted lesbian, whom I slept with and partied with for probably a year. I was this little butch thing. She was a femme. She would take me to these women’s houses who were, you know, lesbian-femme couples. We’d go to underground places. I was 16 years old, going on 17. [...] Toni was seven years older than me and the women that she was hanging out with were older than her. So I’m talking [with] women in their late twenties, early thirties, who absolutely knew that they were dead meat if they were caught with a minor, and they did it anyway. You know, they just did. They took care of me. They would let me have a beer now and then, but, you know, it’s mostly Coca-Cola. You don’t get the rum in the Coke until you’re older. But they also taught me how to dance, how to dress, how to flirt, and it was fabulous. It was completely fabulous. . . . So, that was sort of my sexual awakening, was with these older women.&amp;quot; (p. 102).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&#039;&#039;&#039;Kate Day (15-18, multiple partners including radical feminist Victoria Brownworth; attempted to legally emancipate herself to protect her lover; participated in lesbian feminist activist group &#039;&#039;Dyke-Tactics&#039;&#039;).&#039;&#039;&#039; &amp;quot;The story of another young lesbian named Kate Day further illustrates the extraordinary resourcefulness of teens for whom sex formed one aspect of their efforts to survive, connect, and become who they wanted and needed to be. Born in 1958, [...] She first met radical feminist Victoria Brownworth when she was fifteen or sixteen, [... who] began showing her the bars, helping her act tough enough to get in, and helping her learn the etiquette of working-class lesbian Philadelphia. Like Vázquez, Day said that the adults told her she was “jailbait” and that they had to be careful, but they mentored her anyway, including, ultimately, one time, in bed&amp;quot; (p. 103). &amp;quot;After this one-time sexual mentoring session, Kate felt more confident and entered into sexual encounters and relationships with other adult lesbians. She got into a lasting relationship with a woman, Chris, who was ten years older than her [25-28 - Newgon], and who worked as a nurse while living at home with her parents. Around this time, Kate’s parents found out about and strongly discouraged the relationship, and Kate moved into Chris’s family home. Chris’ parents, however, became nervous that they or their daughter could face legal exposure because of Kate’s underage status, so Kate took the extraordinary step of working with a feminist lawyer — with whom she was interning through her high school — to become an emancipated minor. [Eventually] Chris and Kate moved into a women’s collective in West Philadelphia, while Kate was still finishing up high school.&amp;quot; (p. 104).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Older woman-younger male relationships==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8477231/Woman-22-sexual-contact-three-times-boy-14-avoids-jail.html Woman, 22, who had &#039;sexual contact&#039; three times with a boy, 14, who she met on the internet avoids jail after judge says &#039;there was genuine affection&#039; between the pair.&amp;quot;], &#039;&#039;Daily Mail&#039;&#039;, Jul 2020&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Mr Doig said there appears to have been &#039;genuine affection&#039; between them and the sexual activity only happened over a short period of time. The boy did not provide a victim impact statement and while he cooperated with the prosecution, he did not wish to provide any further information, the court heard. Johnson, of Elswick, Newcastle, who has no previous convictions, pleaded guilty to five counts of sexual activity with a child and was sentenced to a three year community order and must sign the sex offenders register for five years. Setencing her, Judge Sarah Mallett said: &#039;This was a relationship of mutual affection, there was no pressure applied or grooming of any sort.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Various other cases in the Mainstream Media&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
*:Editor: It has become a cliche for stories involving boys with older women to refer to the sexual precocity and fascinations of younger teen boys - with the only palpable harms arising when the relationship is discovered by the authorities. In some cases, even the parents have tried to cancel proceedings, or achieve a softer sentence for the female perpetrators - stating that the boy was a willing party&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/blackpool-woman-sexually-abused-schoolboy-20716952 Blackpool woman sexually abused schoolboy then tried to babysit other children - Lancs.live]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. For example:&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3295537/Attorney-General-review-sentence-babysitter-Jade-Hatt-21-sex-11-year-old-boy-spared-jail.html Rob Ross, defending Hatt] &#039;&#039;&#039;[22, F]&#039;&#039;&#039;, read a statement from the victim&#039;s &#039;&#039;&#039;[11, M]&#039;&#039;&#039; father to the court which stated: &#039;I know he told her he was 15. He looks older than his years. He is sex mad. He would have been fully up for this experience and in many ways sees it as a notch on his belt and is totally unaffected by it.&#039; [...] The judge told Hatt: &#039;Having read everything before me, it was quite clear he was a mature 11-year-old and you were an immature 20-year-old so that narrows the arithmetic age gap between you. &#039;I have read the comments of the boy&#039;s father to the police where he doesn&#039;t consider you a typical 20-year-old. I have also read what he has said about the effect on the victim.&#039;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3652508/Karate-teacher-arrested-allegedly-sending-nude-photos-11-year-old-student.html Female &#039;&#039;&#039;karate teacher, 21&#039;&#039;&#039;, &#039;sent 15 nude photos to &#039;&#039;&#039;11-year-old student&#039;&#039;&#039; and invited him over to her house for sex&#039;.] [...] Figueroa invited him to come over for her 21st birthday and told him &#039;I want to have sex with you&#039; - boy responded &#039;Ok IDC&#039;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583647/Female-paedophile-21-jailed-two-years-sex-eight-year-old-boy-50-times-starting-16.html Loren Morris], 21, was 16 when she first slept with the schoolboy &#039;&#039;&#039;[8],&#039;&#039;&#039; who cannot be identified, and continued until he was ten years old. Morris, who has a child of her own, would have regular intercourse [50+ times] with the boy, now 14, and was only found out after he was overheard bragging about it at school.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alexandria-vera-former-houston-teacher-impregnated-by-13-year-old-pleads-guilty/ Alexandria] Vera was an English teacher at Thomas J. Stovall Middle School when she met the boy &#039;&#039;&#039;[14]&#039;&#039;&#039; during summer school last year. She reportedly told investigators they grew close during the following school year, when he was an eighth grade student. Harris County prosecutors say the sexual relationship went on for nine months. Court documents allege she was introduced to his family as the boy’s girlfriend, and the woman said that his parents supported the relationship and invited her to family gatherings. She reportedly said she told a school district investigator the family was “very supportive and excited” when she disclosed her pregnancy. She allegedly said she and the boy “love each other.” According to the probable cause document, she aborted the pregnancy after a child welfare investigator questioned her in February about the relationship, which she denied at the time. Students told KHOU they remember Vera as the “cool teacher” who let kids at the school use cell phones in class. They say they long suspected her to be romantically involved with the student, who prosecutors say was 13 at the time of the alleged crimes and is now 14.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:*[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2909963/Mom-30-charged-statutory-rape-intercourse-oral-sex-son-s-12-year-old-friend.html Missouri Mother]: &amp;quot;The boy &#039;&#039;&#039;[12]&#039;&#039;&#039; reportedly told investigators that he and his friend&#039;s mother had sex and oral sex at her suburban home while her own son was in the basement. [...] According to KPLR, the victim and the accused had told authorities that they were &#039;in love&#039;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;[https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/6924725/underage-relationship-18-13-ariadna-juarez/ 18-year-old beauty vlogger Ariadna Juarez] enlisted the help of her underage boyfriend&#039;s &#039;&#039;&#039;[13]&#039;&#039;&#039; mother to try and convince her 60,000 subscribers that his &amp;quot;maturity is not determined by age.&amp;quot; [...] Meanwhile, the child&#039;s mother insists that she &amp;quot;would never allow him to be in any kind of danger&amp;quot; and claims that Ariadna is a &amp;quot;good girl&amp;quot; who is &amp;quot;very responsible.&amp;quot; Unsurprisingly, the couple have since split because &amp;quot;the negativity got out of hand&amp;quot; and Ariadna believes that &amp;quot;the only reason this became such a big deal is because both me and him were both very well known on social media.&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Daniel in [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-018-9506-6 Mulya (2018) - Contesting the Dominant Discourse of Child Sexual Abuse: Sexual Subjects, Agency, and Ethics]&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;When I was 12 years old there were two female seminary students from another town came to my church to do their internship. I was interested in one of them because she had a pretty face and a sexy body. After one month we were involved in church activities together, we engaged in this sexual sin. It started when we were alone in the church’s music studio. At that time we were just looking at paintings on the wall. Then I approached her, and I don’t know why I just suddenly had the courage to kiss her cheek. She looked at me. I was terrifyingly afraid. But then she suddenly pulled me and kissed my lips. We kissed, and then she led me to the church attic to do something more. I was confused and afraid she might get pregnant. I asked her and she said she was on the pill so she won’t get pregnant. Then we had sex there. For the next three months, we did it almost every day in her bedroom within the church area. I told my friends at school and my cousins about it (but not my friends at church) and it made me feel proud. I didn’t feel ashamed at all. After a while I started to feel bored with her and I ditched her by coming only when I wanted sex. One day she said her internship was almost finished and she would soon return to her hometown. I was happy because finally I would be free from the commitment and responsibility. I distanced myself from her by saying I wanted to repent from this sin, and also because she was six years older than me. She was upset and perhaps bitterly angry with me, because one week before she left I didn’t talk to her at all.Later, after she left I felt guilty. I tried to apologize but I wasn’t able to contact her.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Nancy Friday. [https://library.lol/main/19FC1CBD031410DE4EA4701285B55B87 &#039;&#039;My Secret Garden: Women&#039;s Sexual Fantasies&#039;&#039;] (Simon &amp;amp; Schuster, 1973).&#039;&#039;&#039; Newgon: A collection of women&#039;s fantasies obtained through letters, tapes and personal interviews. Contains a large amount of frank, non-condemnatory discussion on sensitive topics such as sadism, bestiality, childhood sex, and sexual fantasy from childhood to adulthood.&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&#039;Mona&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; - &amp;quot;I am a teacher and I get my pleasure from administering the punishment. The boys I teach are between ten and fourteen. I regularly take one to my room where I administer the whip and cane, having ordered him to strip naked. I enjoy punishing him but I enjoy it most when I see him getting an erection. I wear provocative clothes and I enjoy embarrassing him when he gets the erection.&lt;br /&gt;
*:I have never punished a girl, mainly because I never had the opportunity to do so. But I often daydream about it. I imagine her being strapped to a bed with only panties and a bra on. I then order one of my boy pupils to strip her and to torture her. The tortures I normally dream about are pulling the hairs from her pubic region one at a time, inserting needles into her breasts, burning her with hot candle grease, whipping her, caning her, while at the same time making her admit filthy thoughts, masturbation, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
*:I also dream about having intercourse with one of my pupils. Some of my thoughts and indeed my actions are very diverse and queer&amp;quot; (pp. 219-220).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Lentz, Robert J. (2011). &#039;&#039;[https://library.lol/main/4685D58FE18EE0AEE4D0155F489DB838 Gloria Grahame, Bad Girl of Film Noir: The Complete Career]&#039;&#039;. McFarland &amp;amp; Co.&#039;&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
Newgon: Husband of oscar-winning actress &#039;&#039;&#039;Gloria Grahame&#039;&#039;&#039; caught her in bed with her 13 year old stepson &#039;&#039;&#039;Tony Ray&#039;&#039;&#039;. They later married and had 2 children in Grahame&#039;s happiest and longest lasting marriage. Grahame and her taboo husband suffered [[Secondary_Harm|intense stigma and social punishment]] for their relationship. Lentz wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;[I]n 1958 she began seeing the man who would become her fourth husband. They had met in 1948, when Tony&lt;br /&gt;
Ray was only ten, and reportedly spent an afternoon of bliss together just three years later. It was this episode that caused Nicholas Ray so much pain and which abruptly ended his marriage to Gloria, as Tony Ray was Nick’s son by his first wife [...] After the ruckus that their afternoon rendezvous caused, Gloria didn’t see Tony again until 1958, but their friendship blossomed into love and they were married in 1960. [...] Gloria’s union with Tony Ray lasted more than four times longer than any of her other marriages, from May 13, 1960, until May 4, 1974. [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nicholas Ray never really recovered from Gloria romancing and marrying her stepson, Tony. Father and son were estranged for the rest of their lives. But Tony had fallen in love with Gloria that 1951 afternoon, and later, when he was old enough to learn if he could share a life with her, he returned. Their marriage produced two boys&amp;quot; (pp. 6-7).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;Their relationship gradually developed from reluctant friends to intimate lovers and they married on May 13, 1960, in Mexico. Knowing that news of their nuptials would cause an uproar, they managed to keep it quiet for nearly two years. Eventually people found out and Gloria&#039;s name was trashed in the tabloid press. Nicholas Ray was stunned and furious. But Tony loved Gloria and she loved him. [...] Tony Ray suffered from some of the same issues his father did, but not to the same extent. He never fell out of love with Gloria as his father had. But their union followed the same pattern that all of Gloria’s previous marriages had: cycles of separation and reunion. Some of their troubles were caused by the public reaction to their marriage; some of them were monetary&amp;quot; (pp. 215-216).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039; [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/RevisedThinking.htm Revised Thinking About Former Sexual Experience] by Porn-Dog in All About Sex, 1998.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A 17-year-old writes about an incident in which his 16- or 17-year-old babysitter engaged him in sex games when he was seven or eight, including fellating him. He was punished for it and grew up sexually repressed. He later came to the conclusion that the sex games were okay and his problem had been the way his parents reacted to it. He wrote, &amp;quot;I laugh at myself for calling someone doing me a favor like that &#039;abuse.&#039;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;The Confessions of Victor X, circa 1910, Chapter 2: [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/VictorX.htm Enlightenment]. See also [http://web.archive.org/web/20090422050236/http://www.calibanbooks.co.uk/htmlpages/victorx.html publisher&#039;s ad] for history of the book.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A man in pre-revolution Russia looks back on his aristocratic and prudish upbringing and the twists and gambols he went through to learn about human sexuality. This had been left by his parents entirely up to him to research in the musty family library and with whatever friends, servants, or servant&#039;s children knew enough and were willing to show him. At ten years old, Victor was molested by a young woman servant almost twice his age. The woman grabbed his hand and thrust it under her skirt while grabbing his penis with her other hand. The boy chastized her and thereafter avoided being alone with her. Far from being traumatized by the event, it played an important part in his budding awareness of sexuality. I believe this case shows, not only that a prepubescent boy of ten can be capable of resisting what he does not want, but also that when it is gently forced on him, he can be capable of processing the experience in his young mind and turning it to positive effect in his life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/awakening.htm Part 6] of A Young Boy&#039;s Awakening by &amp;quot;Girl Luvr&amp;quot; on alt.support.girl-lovers, February to March 2001.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A man in his sixties, looking back on his sexual adventures from age five to 19, recalls the time that two older girls held him down and fondled him. His initial reaction was to struggle, until he realized that it felt good and he then turned to convincing them to let him return the favor. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Mary Kay LeTourneau -- [1] [http://larryelder.warnerbros.com/transcripts/VILI%20FUALAAU%20Transcript.pdf Interview] (PDF, 250 kb) by Larry Elder, September 15, 2004 and [http://larryelder.warnerbros.com/recapWed0.html Show Recap], [2] Ex-teacher pleads guilty to rape of boy who was 13 in Seattle Times, August 8, 1997&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:At the age of 22, Vili Fualaau tells his story of love for his once sixth-grade school teacher and now mother of his two children, Mary Kay LeTourneau, six weeks after she finished serving seven years in prison for statutory rape: &amp;quot;Mary&#039;s out now and we&#039;re finally together. And we still have the same feelings for each other, times forever.&amp;quot; [1] At the age of 14, after she had given birth to their first baby, he said, &amp;quot;I want people to stop seeing me as a victim. My life is going to be fine. Mary didn&#039;t harm me in any way.&amp;quot; [2] &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-089.htm Letter from Bayardo] in HFP Mailbag.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*: A 14-year-old boy writes about his desire for women aged 35 and older. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;John Irving (novelist and Oscar-winning screenwriter), quoted in: Leve, Ariel. &amp;quot;[http://www.ariel-leve.com/all-articles/sunday-times-magazine/interviews/john-irving-2009/ The world according to John Irving]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Sunday Times Magazine&#039;&#039;, October 2009, p. 55.&#039;&#039;&#039; &amp;lt;!-- http://archive.is/8rZTq --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*:Seduced by a woman at the age of 11. &amp;quot;I was sexually initiated by a woman in her twenties [...] She was someone I was tremendously fond of. I never felt coerced, frightened; I never use the word abuse. [...] When she moved on with her life and moved away, I missed her because I was very fond of her. Later, having relations of my own sexually, they weren&#039;t as satisfying. Because groping around with a girl your own age wasn&#039;t as interesting as this woman.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20100110021845/http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/796/letters.php Dave Douglass] (political activist) in letter &amp;quot;Abused child&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Weekly Worker&#039;&#039; #796, December 3 2009.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;If Liz Hoskings, cares to read the first part of my autobiography, Geordies wa mental, she might find that not everyone has had such an apparently sheltered life that she had (Letters, November 26).&lt;br /&gt;
*:I started having sexual intercourse at the age of 12, as did a number of my schoolmates. The two girls who did me the pleasure were indeed two years older and therefore more experienced than the virginal little me. Not by the wildest stretch of anyone&#039;s imagination could it be called abuse, and I was highly delighted. I have to say I considered this extremely healthy - whether it was &#039;informed&#039; or not, I&#039;m really not sure.&lt;br /&gt;
*:What does Liz think I needed informing of? The two girls took for granted that, being a normal, developing teenager, I was up for it. I was and, since I hadn&#039;t a clue where to start had it been down to me, I was more than pleased that they seduced me - if you can call having your pants pulled down and a semi-naked girl bounce up and down on your penis &#039;seduction&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
*:Now, of course, the law would jail the girls for rape. And this is the trouble: you can talk up a case of &#039;abuse&#039; by altering the meaning of facts and terminology, making this whole thing complex and difficult when really it&#039;s a perfectly natural process. The law today would say I had been a &#039;victim&#039;. Actually, I wasn&#039;t, and no-one had done anything remotely wrong.&lt;br /&gt;
*:Two years later, four of my friends and I had sex with a real sexy women in her early thirties. Did she &#039;abuse&#039; us? Are you crazy? We had planned the encounter for weeks and, if anything, we seduced her. Doubtless, she knew all sorts of clever stuff that we didn&#039;t, but what had that to do with anything? Half of the school would have chopped off their big toe to have come with us, and there is no doubt that we consented like there was no tomorrow.&lt;br /&gt;
*:Were we &#039;ill-informed&#039;? Again I have to ask, ill-informed of what? What does Liz think we needed to know before getting laid? Basic facts, she suggests, because young people can be ignorant. But we knew well enough what the sex thing was about; finding enough women and girls to engage with was the problem. It was practical stuff, not theory, that we were searching for.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/brong_1.pdf Loving Boys, Volume One], p. 62&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;&#039;My first serious relationship was with a much older woman. She was twenty-six and I was thirteen, but she thought I was fifteen. It was in the summer in New Hampshire. She was an artist, and she really loved me. We were very serious. I loved her a great deal too. I couldn&#039;t believe anything so big could happen to me.&#039; The boy&#039;s father discovered, however, what had happened, and put an end to the summer romance. &#039;I never, ever saw her again, never talked to her again. I still think about her once in a while.&#039;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Karen Ellis (37) with student Ben Dunbar (15), as recounted by Steven Angelides (2008) in &amp;quot;[http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a901992783~db=all~order=page Sexual offences against &#039;children&#039; and the question of judicial gender bias]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Australian Feminist Studies&#039;&#039;, 23(57), pp. 359-373.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;&#039;In the way that it happened, you could say I was a predator&#039;, asserted Dunbar confidently to a defiant Liz Hayes in a Sixty Minutes interview two years after the offences (2005). &#039;I mean, I went after her … I took my chances. And I just went for it.&#039; But Hayes would not have a bar of any inversion of the standard &#039;adult-perpetrator&#039;/&#039;child-victim&#039; formula. &#039;But you know that&#039;s impossible&#039;, Hayes responded, &#039;You can never be the predator. You know that, don&#039;t you?&#039; Despite the arrogant and didactic tone, Hayes&#039;s rhetorical question highlights how a narrative of inevitable child sexual abuse often functions to determine the normative boundaries of adolescent subjectivity at the same time as erasing the experiences of actual adolescents themselves. Dunbar was at pains to stress the misfit between the legal categories subsuming him (child, victim) and his experience: &#039;Well, apparently I&#039;m the victim. You know that&#039;s …&#039; But before he could even finish, Hayes cut him off. &#039;But you are. Not &amp;quot;apparently&amp;quot;. You are.&#039; Still emphasising a distinction ignored by Hayes between legal definition and what it seeks to &#039;capture&#039;, Dunbar replied, &#039;By the law, yeah, yep.&#039; Sixty Minutes then provided him with a rare moment to articulate his position, albeit in an aggressively infantilising context, and one reflecting his experience at the hands of the law. &#039;You don&#039;t see yourself as a victim?&#039; inquired Hayes cynically. &#039;Definitely not, no&#039;, he said with conviction. In his letter to the court in support of Ellis, Dunbar had pre-empted the question of potential harm and victim status: &#039;The only way this will affect me is if she was to go to prison or was harshly sentenced. I would feel guilty because I know that she is a good person … At all times I knew what I was doing and wanted to do it&#039;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Film director Ingmar Bergman in his autobiography, &#039;&#039;Mein Leben&#039;&#039; (pp. 12-13, cited in [[Paidika]] 11, pp. 19-20)&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;One evening I was to be bathed. The housemaid filled the bathtub and poured something in that smelled good. Alla Pitreus [widowed acquaintance of parents] knocked on the door and asked if I had fallen asleep. When I did not answer, she entered. She was wearing a green bathrobe, which she immediately took off. She explained that she wanted to scrub my back. I turned around and she also stepped into the bath, soaped me, brushed me with a hard brush, and rinsed me with her soft hands. Then she took my hand, drew it to her, and put it between her thighs. My heart was beating in my throat. She spread my fingers and pressed them deeper into her lap. With her other hand she clasped my sex, startled and wide awake. She cautiously drew back the foreskin and carefully removed a white material that had collected around the glans. Everything was pleasant and also did not frighten me in the least. She held me firmly between her strong, soft thighs, and without resistance and without fear I let myself sway in a strong, almost painful, pleasure. I was eight or perhaps nine years old.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20090325082637/http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_1126831.html?menu=entertainment.celebrities Anthony Kiedis (musician)]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Kiedis reveals in a new autobiography that his father, a one time Hollywood cocaine dealer called Blackie Dammet, was always bringing home new girlfriends. The singer&#039;s ghostwriter, Larry &#039;Ratso&#039; Sloman, told the New York Post: &amp;quot;His girlfriends were always young, hot girls. &amp;quot;One night, when Anthony was 12, he went with his father to the Rainbow Room and Blackie&#039;s girlfriend is there dancing for him. &amp;quot;And Anthony asks: &amp;quot;Dad, can I have my first sexual experience with your girlfriend?&amp;quot; And Blackie says: &amp;quot;Sure, son!&amp;quot; &amp;quot;So they go back to the house, and his dad builds a big bed out of four mattresses in his room and puts the girl in next to him. And that&#039;s how he loses his virginity.&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20080327125654/http://www.nypost.com/seven/01242007/gossip/pagesix/pagesix.htm Kirk Douglas] (Oscar-winning actor), in his 2008 memoir &#039;&#039;Let&#039;s Face It: 90 Years of Living, Loving, and Learning&#039;&#039;.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;He also remembers getting deflowered in high school by his English teacher. &amp;quot;I had been a ragamuffin kid of 15 coping with a neighborhood filled with gangs ... under her guidance I became a different person ... I am eternally grateful. By today&#039;s standards she would have gone to jail. I had no idea we were doing something wrong. Did she?&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Peter Jay Rudge, detailed in: Sullivan, Randall. &amp;quot;[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/seduction.htm The Seduction of Peter Jay Rudge],&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;Rolling Stone&#039;&#039;, January 1 1993.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:F40 and M13. This story is very long, and known to us because of the legal persecution it faced. &amp;quot;Peter wasn&#039;t sure about the natural part but became convinced of the enjoyable aspects, he said, when Diane stroked him again - ``three or four more times&#039;&#039; - while they were riding her BMW. ``She would touch my penis, outside my clothing and inside,&#039;&#039; he said. ``She would just kind of move it around. She would ask if it felt good.&#039;&#039; He and Diane were ``just friends&#039;&#039; at that point, Peter explained: ``It was fun to be around her. There were, like, no limits.&#039;&#039; With Mrs. Walden, he and his brothers ``could do whatever we wanted,&#039;&#039; Peter said, ``and Diane paid for everything.&#039;&#039; And when the two of them were alone, Mrs. Walden ``spoke to me like a grown-up,&#039;&#039; Peter recalled. ``She was glad we were such close friends.&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/george-hamilton-talks-abo_n_135290.html George Hamilton, a Hollywood Actor - interviewed on &amp;quot;The View&amp;quot; on 16 October 2008.]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;When I was very young (12), I had a relationship with my stepmother (not kin … I&#039;ve always liked older women)&amp;quot;. Asked for age of woman: &amp;quot;She was about 28 … 30&amp;quot; … &amp;quot;my father never knew&amp;quot; &amp;quot;it was very normal … she didn&#039;t make me feel bad about it&amp;quot; Told that his experience was molestation: &amp;quot;I was molested? Damn, I&#039;m down for it again&amp;quot;. It went on for a &amp;quot;short period of time&amp;quot; and when he was a professional actor, they met again. &amp;quot;it didn&#039;t feel abnormal at the age of 12 … I cuddled&amp;quot; Informs us that he went further. &amp;quot;I don&#039;t think that it warped me … in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Anonymous, in e-mail to [[Newgon]] admin, 2009.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;My Story Of Consent&lt;br /&gt;
*:Yes, consent. I gave consent when I was 7 years old. My parents were friends with neighbors of ours who had a daughter named Patty. She used to babysit me, but never overnight. I remember being smitten with her. She was 17, slender build, and had long brunette hair with about a small C cup. She was very feminine but liked to roughhouse. Pinning me down and tickling me, play jokes on me, make weird noises (one she called Retarded Donald Duck) to make me laugh, play records for me. All of the fun stuff I can still remember. I really loved her and used to call her my girlfriend.&lt;br /&gt;
*:My parents left her with me for a few days while they went out of state. I had a much older brother (mid 20&#039;s) who used to come and go out of the house. He had clothes and all of his stuff still there. Anyways, I found his &amp;quot;stash&amp;quot; in a drawer. Playboys and Hustler. I got them out and started looking at these nude women. I knew I liked it because I could feel my heart and pulse racing. Didn&#039;t know about masturbation but I was feeling something stirring in my pants.&lt;br /&gt;
*:Patty came into his room and saw me looking at the magazines. She gave me this &amp;quot;oh shit&amp;quot; look and I thought I was going to get in trouble. But I didn&#039;t. She came over and asked me if this was the first time I&#039;d ever seen a naked girl. I used to bathe with my mom when I was like 2 or something but she didn&#039;t look like what I was looking at currently. I then asked Patty whose &amp;quot;these&amp;quot; are, pointing to breasts. She told me they were boobs. I then pointed and said &amp;quot;what&#039;s this?&amp;quot; She said &amp;quot;it&#039;s called a pussy.&amp;quot; I asked her why there was hair down there. She said everybody, boys and girls, have hair. I asked her if she did and she said yes. Then I ratherboldly asked if I could see. She became embarrassed and after what felt like an eternity said OK. She drops trou and shows me. YES!!!&lt;br /&gt;
*:Then we started looking at the Hustler mags. I saw pictures of a man performing cunnilingus on a woman. I knew about it before because a girl named Alicia I went to in Kindergarten asked me to do that to her.&lt;br /&gt;
*:I told Patty that I had done this &amp;quot;pointing to the oral pic&amp;quot; before. She laughed but I told her I was serious and started to basically reenact it to her. I guess it might have been a bit too much for Patty because she was completely dumbfounded. After the awkwardness she asked me if I liked it. I said &amp;quot;I guess so, yeah.&amp;quot; I then asked if I could see her naked. She grabbed a stool and took all of her clothes off. I walked around her, marveling at her naked body. She asked me if I wanted to lick her pussy and said &amp;quot;I didn&#039;t have too if I didn&#039;t want to.&amp;quot; I said I did. She started pointing out where and how to lick. I went down on her off and on. She started making these small moaning sounds and asked her what was wrong. She said &amp;quot;nothing, I like what you&#039;re doing, don&#039;t stop.&amp;quot; I don&#039;t know how long it lasted initially but over the course of my parent&#039;s absence I performed oral on her. She never once asked to see me naked or &amp;quot;play&amp;quot; with me. Those couple of days were the only days we engaged in heavy sex play. I mean she still babysat me and all that. I always asked every time she came over to let me do those things to her. Sometimes she did but briefly. Me and her shared and strengthened our bond for each other up until the day I never saw her again.&lt;br /&gt;
*:She joined the military is the last thing I know. But she had the decency to tell me she was leaving for service and I cried and I cried begging her not to go. Even though I was around 9 then she gave it to me straight as I &amp;quot;deserved to not have the news sugarcoated.&amp;quot; We loved each other. She told me she did and that we should always have a special place for each other in our hearts. I might be an adult now and society says I should look at my precious Patty in a negative light but I can&#039;t and I won&#039;t. She did nothing wrong because there was love attached to it, because I felt it then and I feel it now. The fact still remains true that I hold her very dear to me even after not seeing her all of these years.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Alex&#039;s story in [http://web.archive.org/web/20080123073641/https://web.archive.org/web/20080123073641/http://www.soapboxgirls.com/soapboxgirls/jul01/articles/rageofconsent.html Rage of Consent] by Heather Corinna in Soapbox Girls, July 2001.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;All in all, it was a positive experience. I had an early taste of adult concerns and responsibilities with the person that I was involved with, but it was also a lot of fun. The sex was fantastic, and she was a really great friend. If more people of any age could have that kind of relationship we’d be better off. If more people of any age could have that kind of relationship we&#039;d be better off.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;NotAMonster&amp;quot; on the IIDB forum&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:A teenage pedophile has a good personal reason for not believing in the current dogma surrounding child sexuality. &amp;quot;When I was 10 I met a 21 year old girl who was a family friend of my cousins. Over a period of 2 months, we started to have a relationship. This went on until I was 13. She never forced me and I don&#039;t cry myself to sleep at night because of the memories that &amp;quot;monster&amp;quot; made me do. Never told my parents or anybody else about us because I knew she&#039;d be arrested. Me being a girl lover may possibly be a result of being with her as a child, however it has not had a negative impact on my life. Not to mention we&#039;re still friends.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Now defunct web forum used by a previous admin from Newgon.com: &#039;&#039;&#039;iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4606675&amp;amp;postcount=176&#039;&#039;&#039; (dead, no archive available)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[https://www.globalist.it/politics/2019/03/13/calenda-parla-del-figlio-piu-piccolo-gli-piace-il-comunismo-italiano-lo-faro-guarire/ Carlo Calenda, an Italian business executive and politician who previously served in the Italian senate - In an interview by weekly news magazine &amp;quot;Panorama&amp;quot; - 13 March 2019.]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Then Calenda talks about himself. He describes becoming a father at a young age as “the most formative event of my life: the birth of my daughter Tay. I was sixteen, I had no rules. She gave me a sense of difference and an idea of responsibility that I didn’t have before.” And he goes on: “I grew up with everyone telling me, ‘You’re more mature than your age.’ I thought I’d prove it,” adding, “I suggest that all parents try to prevent that.”&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;It was a love story that began when he was just fourteen, with his mother’s husband’s secretary: “A beautiful girl, with red hair,” he recalls. “I used to visit producer Riccardo Tozzi, who was kind of a stepfather to me, and I flirted with her.” After a year-long relationship came an unexpected pregnancy: “I became a father and flunked school in the same year. But it was a turning point, and there wasn’t a single time I didn’t give her the bottle myself.”&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;He was forced to leave home: “They changed the locks and made me face my responsibilities. I went to live with the girl’s parents.” His parents made a deal with him: “We’ll support your daughter, but you’ll have to support yourself.”&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34674</id>
		<title>Intergenerational Lesbianism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34674"/>
		<updated>2026-07-02T20:47:38Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Research literature */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Intergenerational Lesbianism&#039;&#039;&#039;, sometimes called &#039;&#039;&#039;Korephilia&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Etymology and History==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;. The word &#039;&#039;lesbian&#039;&#039; itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of &#039;&#039;Lesbos&#039;&#039;, where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] &#039;&#039;NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;, Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in &#039;&#039;Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 &#039;&#039;Sappho: The Tenth Muse&#039;&#039;] (author unknown).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, &amp;quot;How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sappho, if you will not get up&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;and let us look at you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I shall never love you again&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Get up, unleash your suppleness&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;lift off your Chian nightdress&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] One does not berate one&#039;s teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frankel argued that &amp;quot;Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]&amp;quot;. She ends with Sappho&#039;s blessing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gods bless you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;May you sleep then&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;On some tender&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;girl friend&#039;s breast.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. &amp;quot;The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could&amp;quot; from &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]],&amp;quot; recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl&#039;s relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|&#039;&#039;Blue Is the Warmest Colour&#039;&#039;]], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and &#039;&#039;Body Politic&#039;&#039; writer Chris Bearchell,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot; A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on &amp;quot;Women/Girl Love&amp;quot; - Or, Lesbians Do &amp;quot;Do It&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O&#039;Carroll, &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039; (1980)].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a &#039;phase&#039;. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the &#039;[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]&#039;, and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. &#039;&#039;The New Yorker&#039;&#039;, September 11, 2023].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are &amp;quot;more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, &amp;quot;It’s possible,&amp;quot; Millett explained, &amp;quot;that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Writing in Toronto&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed &#039;&#039;[[The Age Taboo]]&#039;&#039; (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|&#039;&#039;The Man they Called a Monster&#039;&#039;]] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was &amp;quot;impressed by the lucidity&amp;quot; of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;s arguments, &amp;quot;by his politeness, courage, and stamina&amp;quot; after having invited and heard him speak at a &#039;Gay Cambridge&#039; event, and lamented the &amp;quot;silenced women&amp;quot; afraid of speaking out after &amp;quot;the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, No. 84 (June, 1982).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Donald recalls &amp;quot;a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences.&amp;quot; She states that &amp;quot;Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend,&amp;quot; and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend&#039;s mother at 8.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the &amp;quot;paedosexual taboo,&amp;quot; might be &amp;quot;felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand.&amp;quot; Because of their special closeness [to young people],&amp;quot; Knopf argued, &amp;quot;the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men&amp;quot; (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that &amp;quot;Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (&#039;&#039;New Statesman&#039;&#039;, 16 Sept, 1977).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, Berlin&#039;s female intergenerational rights organization (&amp;quot;Kanalratten&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;Sewer Rats&amp;quot;) - which had published a manifesto&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, &amp;quot;no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl,&amp;quot; could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the &amp;quot;love between adults and children&amp;quot;, and said she wanted &amp;quot;to do everything to change such laws.&amp;quot; After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP&#039;s campaign]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039; - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer&#039;s will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I&#039;ve heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Many editions available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(commonly cited but rarely used symbol)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978. Reprint from &#039;&#039;Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Research literature== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Lauren Jae Gutterman. (2026). Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151. - An analysis of &#039;&#039;One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth&#039;&#039; (ed. by Ann Heron; Alyson books: Boston, 1983), which included several testimonies of relationships between legally defined minors and adults.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*::&amp;quot;Amy, a sixteen-year-old girl from a conservative Baptist family in Texas, recounts how she developed a crush on her dance teacher when she was only nine years old. After three years, at age twelve, Amy&#039;s twenty-three-year-old dance teacher “brought her out” sexually when they shared a hotel room on a trip for an out-of-town dance performance. Amy&#039;s relationship with her dance teacher continued secretly for several years until Amy and her family eventually moved away. The dance teacher validated Amy’s sexual identity and introduced Amy to books and other resources about lesbian life. In fact, Amy’s teacher was the first to introduce her to the word “lesbian” itself. Writing for &#039;&#039;One Teenager in Ten&#039;&#039; several years later while in the midst of a lesbian relationship with a similarly aged peer, Amy continued to have positive feelings about her sexual relationship with her teacher and remained in contact with her.&amp;quot; (Gutterman, pp. 146-147). [Note: this testimony is quoted directly from the 1983 book in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|&#039;adult female with minor&#039; lived experiences]] page].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Amanda H. Littauer, &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1 (2020), 95-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion E.P. de Ras, &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934&#039;&#039; (Routledge, 2008).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934&#039;&#039;] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 &#039;&#039;The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island&#039;&#039;], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls&#039; movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls&#039; groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the &amp;quot;infamous&amp;quot; chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &amp;quot;The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039; 5:1 (1994), 90–114.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marina Knopf, &amp;quot;Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &#039;&#039;Interview&#039;&#039; in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, &#039;Female Paedophilia&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]&#039;&#039; (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;International Journal of Greek Love&#039;&#039;, Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jenn McCollum, &amp;quot;The Romance of Henry James&#039;s Female Pedophile, in  &#039;&#039;MP: An Online Feminist Journal&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pederasty]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Personal perspectives===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly&#039;s testimony]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Gay]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34673</id>
		<title>Intergenerational Lesbianism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34673"/>
		<updated>2026-07-02T20:45:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Research literature */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Intergenerational Lesbianism&#039;&#039;&#039;, sometimes called &#039;&#039;&#039;Korephilia&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Etymology and History==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;. The word &#039;&#039;lesbian&#039;&#039; itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of &#039;&#039;Lesbos&#039;&#039;, where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] &#039;&#039;NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;, Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in &#039;&#039;Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 &#039;&#039;Sappho: The Tenth Muse&#039;&#039;] (author unknown).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, &amp;quot;How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sappho, if you will not get up&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;and let us look at you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I shall never love you again&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Get up, unleash your suppleness&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;lift off your Chian nightdress&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] One does not berate one&#039;s teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frankel argued that &amp;quot;Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]&amp;quot;. She ends with Sappho&#039;s blessing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gods bless you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;May you sleep then&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;On some tender&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;girl friend&#039;s breast.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. &amp;quot;The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could&amp;quot; from &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]],&amp;quot; recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl&#039;s relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|&#039;&#039;Blue Is the Warmest Colour&#039;&#039;]], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and &#039;&#039;Body Politic&#039;&#039; writer Chris Bearchell,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot; A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on &amp;quot;Women/Girl Love&amp;quot; - Or, Lesbians Do &amp;quot;Do It&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O&#039;Carroll, &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039; (1980)].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a &#039;phase&#039;. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the &#039;[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]&#039;, and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. &#039;&#039;The New Yorker&#039;&#039;, September 11, 2023].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are &amp;quot;more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, &amp;quot;It’s possible,&amp;quot; Millett explained, &amp;quot;that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Writing in Toronto&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed &#039;&#039;[[The Age Taboo]]&#039;&#039; (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|&#039;&#039;The Man they Called a Monster&#039;&#039;]] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was &amp;quot;impressed by the lucidity&amp;quot; of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;s arguments, &amp;quot;by his politeness, courage, and stamina&amp;quot; after having invited and heard him speak at a &#039;Gay Cambridge&#039; event, and lamented the &amp;quot;silenced women&amp;quot; afraid of speaking out after &amp;quot;the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, No. 84 (June, 1982).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Donald recalls &amp;quot;a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences.&amp;quot; She states that &amp;quot;Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend,&amp;quot; and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend&#039;s mother at 8.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the &amp;quot;paedosexual taboo,&amp;quot; might be &amp;quot;felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand.&amp;quot; Because of their special closeness [to young people],&amp;quot; Knopf argued, &amp;quot;the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men&amp;quot; (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that &amp;quot;Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (&#039;&#039;New Statesman&#039;&#039;, 16 Sept, 1977).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, Berlin&#039;s female intergenerational rights organization (&amp;quot;Kanalratten&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;Sewer Rats&amp;quot;) - which had published a manifesto&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, &amp;quot;no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl,&amp;quot; could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the &amp;quot;love between adults and children&amp;quot;, and said she wanted &amp;quot;to do everything to change such laws.&amp;quot; After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP&#039;s campaign]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039; - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer&#039;s will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I&#039;ve heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Many editions available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(commonly cited but rarely used symbol)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978. Reprint from &#039;&#039;Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Research literature== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Lauren Jae Gutterman. (2026). Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151. - An analysis of &#039;&#039;One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth&#039;&#039; (ed. by Ann Heron; Alyson books: Boston, 1983), which included several testimonies of relationships between legally defined minors and adults.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*::&amp;quot;Amy, a sixteen-year-old girl from a conservative Baptist family in Texas, recounts how she developed a crush on her dance teacher when she was only nine years old. After three years, at age twelve, Amy&#039;s twenty-three-year-old dance teacher “brought her out” sexually when they shared a hotel room on a trip for an out-of-town dance performance. Amy&#039;s relationship with her dance teacher continued secretly for several years until Amy and her family eventually moved away. The dance teacher validated Amy’s sexual identity and introduced Amy to books and other resources about lesbian life. In fact, Amy’s teacher was the first to introduce her to the word “lesbian” itself. Writing for &#039;&#039;One Teenager in Ten&#039;&#039; several years later while in the midst of a lesbian relationship with a similarly aged peer, Amy continued to have positive feelings about her sexual relationship with her teacher and remained in contact with her.&amp;quot; (Gutterman, pp. 146-147).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Amanda H. Littauer, &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1 (2020), 95-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion E.P. de Ras, &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934&#039;&#039; (Routledge, 2008).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934&#039;&#039;] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 &#039;&#039;The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island&#039;&#039;], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls&#039; movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls&#039; groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the &amp;quot;infamous&amp;quot; chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &amp;quot;The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039; 5:1 (1994), 90–114.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marina Knopf, &amp;quot;Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &#039;&#039;Interview&#039;&#039; in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, &#039;Female Paedophilia&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]&#039;&#039; (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;International Journal of Greek Love&#039;&#039;, Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jenn McCollum, &amp;quot;The Romance of Henry James&#039;s Female Pedophile, in  &#039;&#039;MP: An Online Feminist Journal&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pederasty]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Personal perspectives===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly&#039;s testimony]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Gay]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34672</id>
		<title>Intergenerational Lesbianism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34672"/>
		<updated>2026-07-02T20:44:04Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Research literature */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Intergenerational Lesbianism&#039;&#039;&#039;, sometimes called &#039;&#039;&#039;Korephilia&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Etymology and History==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;. The word &#039;&#039;lesbian&#039;&#039; itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of &#039;&#039;Lesbos&#039;&#039;, where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] &#039;&#039;NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;, Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in &#039;&#039;Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 &#039;&#039;Sappho: The Tenth Muse&#039;&#039;] (author unknown).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, &amp;quot;How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sappho, if you will not get up&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;and let us look at you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I shall never love you again&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Get up, unleash your suppleness&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;lift off your Chian nightdress&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] One does not berate one&#039;s teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frankel argued that &amp;quot;Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]&amp;quot;. She ends with Sappho&#039;s blessing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gods bless you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;May you sleep then&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;On some tender&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;girl friend&#039;s breast.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. &amp;quot;The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could&amp;quot; from &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]],&amp;quot; recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl&#039;s relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|&#039;&#039;Blue Is the Warmest Colour&#039;&#039;]], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and &#039;&#039;Body Politic&#039;&#039; writer Chris Bearchell,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot; A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on &amp;quot;Women/Girl Love&amp;quot; - Or, Lesbians Do &amp;quot;Do It&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O&#039;Carroll, &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039; (1980)].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a &#039;phase&#039;. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the &#039;[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]&#039;, and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. &#039;&#039;The New Yorker&#039;&#039;, September 11, 2023].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are &amp;quot;more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, &amp;quot;It’s possible,&amp;quot; Millett explained, &amp;quot;that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Writing in Toronto&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed &#039;&#039;[[The Age Taboo]]&#039;&#039; (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|&#039;&#039;The Man they Called a Monster&#039;&#039;]] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was &amp;quot;impressed by the lucidity&amp;quot; of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;s arguments, &amp;quot;by his politeness, courage, and stamina&amp;quot; after having invited and heard him speak at a &#039;Gay Cambridge&#039; event, and lamented the &amp;quot;silenced women&amp;quot; afraid of speaking out after &amp;quot;the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, No. 84 (June, 1982).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Donald recalls &amp;quot;a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences.&amp;quot; She states that &amp;quot;Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend,&amp;quot; and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend&#039;s mother at 8.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the &amp;quot;paedosexual taboo,&amp;quot; might be &amp;quot;felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand.&amp;quot; Because of their special closeness [to young people],&amp;quot; Knopf argued, &amp;quot;the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men&amp;quot; (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that &amp;quot;Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (&#039;&#039;New Statesman&#039;&#039;, 16 Sept, 1977).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, Berlin&#039;s female intergenerational rights organization (&amp;quot;Kanalratten&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;Sewer Rats&amp;quot;) - which had published a manifesto&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, &amp;quot;no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl,&amp;quot; could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the &amp;quot;love between adults and children&amp;quot;, and said she wanted &amp;quot;to do everything to change such laws.&amp;quot; After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP&#039;s campaign]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039; - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer&#039;s will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I&#039;ve heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Many editions available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(commonly cited but rarely used symbol)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978. Reprint from &#039;&#039;Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Research literature== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Gutterman, L.J. (2026). Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151. - An analysis of &#039;&#039;One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth&#039;&#039; (ed. by Ann Heron; Alyson books: Boston, 1983), which included several testimonies of relationships between legally defined minors and adults.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, 35(1), 144-151.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*::&amp;quot;Amy, a sixteen-year-old girl from a conservative Baptist family in Texas, recounts how she developed a crush on her dance teacher when she was only nine years old. After three years, at age twelve, Amy&#039;s twenty-three-year-old dance teacher “brought her out” sexually when they shared a hotel room on a trip for an out-of-town dance performance. Amy&#039;s relationship with her dance teacher continued secretly for several years until Amy and her family eventually moved away. The dance teacher validated Amy’s sexual identity and introduced Amy to books and other resources about lesbian life. In fact, Amy’s teacher was the first to introduce her to the word “lesbian” itself. Writing for &#039;&#039;One Teenager in Ten&#039;&#039; several years later while in the midst of a lesbian relationship with a similarly aged peer, Amy continued to have positive feelings about her sexual relationship with her teacher and remained in contact with her.&amp;quot; (Lauren Gutterman, pp. 146-147).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Amanda H. Littauer, &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1 (2020), 95-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion E.P. de Ras, &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934&#039;&#039; (Routledge, 2008).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934&#039;&#039;] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 &#039;&#039;The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island&#039;&#039;], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls&#039; movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls&#039; groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the &amp;quot;infamous&amp;quot; chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &amp;quot;The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039; 5:1 (1994), 90–114.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marina Knopf, &amp;quot;Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &#039;&#039;Interview&#039;&#039; in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, &#039;Female Paedophilia&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]&#039;&#039; (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;International Journal of Greek Love&#039;&#039;, Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jenn McCollum, &amp;quot;The Romance of Henry James&#039;s Female Pedophile, in  &#039;&#039;MP: An Online Feminist Journal&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pederasty]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Personal perspectives===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly&#039;s testimony]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Gay]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=NSPCC&amp;diff=34667</id>
		<title>NSPCC</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=NSPCC&amp;diff=34667"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T15:05:46Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Angry Harry&amp;#039;s articles */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;margin-right: 25px; float: left;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;__TOC__&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;[[Image:Pcc.JPG|thumb|NSPCC HQ, Curtain Road, London.]]&#039;&#039;&#039;The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children&#039;&#039;&#039; (NSPCC, f. 1884) is a UK-based children&#039;s charity with statutory powers, and a history of circulating questionable fundraising literature. Between the 00s and the 10s, its size has been estimated at roughly 2,500 employees, with revenues of £118 Million. During this period, they were also a recipient of EU funding.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The charity are known for their emotive TV commercials, and have sometimes portrayed a demonic/oversexed image of males with children in their custody - or sought to play on common fears - putting them at odds with Mens Rights Activists among others. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Corporate/state-model==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The NSPCC&#039;s success led to it effectively becoming an arm of the British state, receiving funding to carry out training programmes and other services. The NSPCC is the only UK charity which has been granted&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1989/ukpga_19890041_en_6 Children Act 1989]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; statutory powers (under the [[Children Act 1989]]), allowing it to apply for care and supervision orders for &amp;quot;children at risk&amp;quot;. It is also the only charity with the statutory power to undertake child abuse investigations and can be called upon by the police and local authorities to assist them. State-employed care-givers and web-administrators have been known to frequently refer cases of child abuse to the NSPCC or encourage the use of this organisation as a contact point. [[Philip Jenkins]], &#039;Intimate Enemies&#039; (Aldine de Gruyter, New York, 1992)&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://openlibrary.org/books/OL1705803M/Intimate_enemies Intimate Enemies: Moral Panics in Contemporary Great Britain]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, pp. 104-113, explains how this close relationship was vital to the success of the charity and its ideas:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The NSPCC acted as the conduit by which American perceptions of a problem (and soon a crisis) were introduced to Britain. NSPCC director Arthur Morton first visited the United States in 1964 and spent time with Dr C Henry Kempe, who would long be a major influence on British child protection policy.... Researchers and other officials began making frequent visits to the United States to study changing perceptions of child maltreatment. The various researchers published extensively on the topic, and there was interchange of ideas and personnel between the NSPCC and the child welfare section of the Department of Health and Social Security (DHSS), the department of central government with overall charge of the welfare system. Joan Court of the NSPCC Research Unit actually moved to head the relevant section of the SHSS. From 1970, DHSS circulars began to adopt NSPCC ideas...&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[The NSPCC] &#039;&#039;was vital to the establishment of new ideas about sexual abuse...&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Alan Gilmour had become director in 1979 in the middle of a crisis: “Its Inspectors...were diminishing in number and in some areas losing credibility because they were too few and too scattered to provide a coherent service; and this service was too vaguely defined” (Gilmour 1988:133-134). Gilmour&#039;s directorship produced a near revolution, focused especially on the society&#039;s centenary in 1984. This offered abundant opportunities for fund-raising and publicity... Gilmour launched an aggressive and more proactive effort at child protection, in intimate alliance with public agencies.... By 1989, the society was drawing about 11 percent of its £36 million ($45 million) budget from central and local government, the balance being raised from fund-raising and investments. The society&#039;s budget had increased over the decade by 1000%.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Screenshot 20210918-064641 DuckDuckGo.jpg|thumb|Bizarre and implausible messaging]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Dishonesty==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Various examples of the NSPCC&#039;s dishonesty and disregard for young people include sensationalized advertising,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/1999/aug/08/foodanddrink.childprotection The Guardian - NSPCC]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; the contrivance of questionable social networking identities for what they claim to be abused children (see gallery),&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20080423050030/http://www.donthideit.com/profiles/hubpage.html Questionable social media Profiles]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and the use of falsified examples of child abuse to solicit donations in their mass mailings.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481243/How-NSPCC-faked-child-abuse-stories-generate-cash.html Daily Mail: Fake Abuse]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Children have been encouraged to expand the range of behaviors they deem to be abusive,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5047120.stm BBC - Schools &#039;not advising on abuse&#039;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; strongly supporting the hypothesis of the NSPCC as a [[Research: Secondary Harm|secondary victimizer]] (see section on victimologists).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It has been pointed out that the NSPCC&#039;s 2009 findings that a quarter of 18 to 24 year olds had experienced &amp;quot;severe physical violence, sexual abuse or neglect in childhood&amp;quot; and that one in five had been &amp;quot;physically attacked by an adult, raped or sexually assaulted or severely neglected during their lives&amp;quot; are tainted by their inclusivity. Those categories included &amp;quot;serious emotional neglect or lack of physical care or supervision&amp;quot;, which were defined as including &amp;quot;parents never or hardly ever asking their child who they were going out with or where or what they were doing&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.bbc.com/news/education-12449643 Million children &#039;severely maltreated&#039;, says NSPCC]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
NSPCC campaigns have been criticised&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/01/childrensservices.comment Guardian: Criticism]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; for their ineffectuality by organisations such as NPC:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The answer, suggests the report by New Philanthropy Capital (NPC), is not a lot. Campaigning to change public attitudes and keep abuse on the radar, as NSPCC does with some success, has its place, but there is zero evidence that this leads to fewer beatings. The logic behind Full Stop, it argues, is flawed and naive: &amp;quot;Improved attitudes to abuse can certainly facilitate the identification and reporting of abuse that is already occurring, but they seem to have very little bearing on whether a substance-abusing parent neglects their child behind closed doors, or whether a sexual offender chooses to abuse a child when they have the opportunity to do so in secret.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The charity has also faced criticism for its obsession with publicity and advertising, for fearmongering&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3890641,00.html Guardian: Criticism of fearmongering]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.sirc.org/media/mediaaugust1399.html SIRC - Advertising criticism]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and fabricating or exaggerating facts and figures in its research. In an article in Spiked Magazine, [[Frank Furedi]] professor of sociology at the University of Kent, branded it a &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.spiked-online.com/2004/01/19/a-danger-to-the-nations-children/ Frank Furedi]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;lobby group devoted to publicising its peculiar brand of anti-parent propaganda and promoting itself.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039; NSPCC wages are most certainly excessive for a charity - matching those of civil servants in most cases. For example, in 2008 (Guardian), a Campaigns Development Adviser could expect to earn up to £40k pa and graduates entered at £16-18k pa (Hobsons, 2008).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Sex, and other scandals==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been examples of sex-scandals involving NSPCC staff. These include an amateur fetishistic pornographer, and the authorization of prolific sex-abuse fantasist, fraudster and child sex offender [[Carl Beech]] to give talks at primary schools.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nspccs-top-celeb-booker-filmed-20568053 Rubber Fetish]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7274369/Paedophile-Carl-Beechs-NSPCC-role-allowed-mingle-children-young-four.html Carl Beech/NSPCC]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Data misuse has also been indicated and led to a fine from the Information Commissioner in 2017.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://ico.org.uk/about-the-ico/news-and-events/news-and-blogs/2017/04/ico-fines-eleven-more-charities/ ICO Fine]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==SRA: A betrayal of the NSPCC&#039;s agenda==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
During the late 1980s and early 1990s, a moral panic emerged over alleged ritual satanic abuse. The NSPCC provided a publication known as &#039;Satanic Indicators&#039; to social services around the country that has been blamed for some social workers panicking and making false accusations. The most prominent of these cases was in Rochdale in 1990 when up to 20 children were taken from their homes and parents after social services believed them to be involved in satanic or occult ritual abuse. The allegations were later found out to be false.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20121009121020/http://menmedia.co.uk/middletonguardian/news/s/508066_satanic_abuse_the_truth_at_last_ MEN Media: Satanic abuse: The truth at last ]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The case was the subject of a BBC documentary which featured recordings of the interviews made by NSPCC social workers, revealing that flawed techniques and leading questions were used to gain evidence of abuse from the children. The documentary revealed&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4595158.stm documentary BBC - When Satan came to town]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.spiked-online.com/2006/01/12/a-full-stop-to-the-satanic-panic/ Spiked - A full stop to the Satanic panic]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; that social services were wrongly convinced by organisations such as the NSPCC, that abuse was occurring and was so rife that they made allegations before any evidence was considered.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Wp-content.jpg|thumb|More disturbing advertising]]&lt;br /&gt;
==Thought crime==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Further assimilation of NSPCC incentives on Child Pornography into UK law would lead to an expansion of the current &#039;&#039;thought crime&#039;&#039; agenda. For example, a NSPCC Policy Advisor, Zoe Hilton supported the closure of role-play websites in which it is possible for adults to play out adult-child sex fantasies (age-regression) without involving any actual minors:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;It is not OK to fantasise about this stuff. These kind of interactions need to be shut down.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20100512042538/http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641290719 Zoe Hilton - Age regression bigotry]&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Prostasia Foundation]] are one example of a &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; child protectionist charity who have pled for donors to reconsider leaving large amounts of money in their will to the NSPCC, because of such positions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Nspcc.png||Example of claimed &amp;quot;real life stories&amp;quot; with implausible youthspeak&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Child safety mascot]] - The NSPCC sometimes uses mascots, such as the Pantosaurus, a dinosaur that advises children not to let strangers touch their genitals.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Society_for_the_Prevention_of_Cruelty_to_Children Wikipedia]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2002/feb/19/childprotection.comment The NSPCC needs to be stopped, full stop] - Dea Birkett, Guardian article.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20080517035730/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article3187323.ece Guardians that need a good smack] - Times criticism.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Reddit articles===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1ivcpb/the_nspcc_is_an_evil_organisation/ The NSPCC is an evil organisation]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/flqoz/this_is_why_i_dont_give_money_to_the_nspcc/ This is why I don&#039;t give money to the NSPCC]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Angry Harry&#039;s articles===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Archived opinion pieces from a [[Masculism|Men&#039;s Rights]] Activist who [https://angryharry.mra-archive.com/ bitterly opposed] the children&#039;s charity.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;column-count:2;-moz-column-count:2;-webkit-column-count:2&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://angryharry.com/es-Curse-of-the-NSPCC.htm?AHMain The Curse of the NSPCC] - Aggregate of many articles criticizing the NSPCC.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20101115113011/http://www.angryharry.com/reNSPCCSHATTERSCHILDABUSEMYTHS.htm?note NSPCC Shatters Child Abuse Myths] - 2000.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20111012052601/http://angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm NSPCC: Do We Need An Abuse Industry?] - 2004.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20111011161725/http://angryharry.com/esNSPCCNeedsToBeStopped.htm NSPCC: Demonising Men] - 2004.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20111010185357/http://www.angryharry.com/esNSPCCExposedYetAgain.htm?note NSPCC Exposed Yet Again] - 2006.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20101115111751/http://www.angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm?note NSPCC: Do We Need An Abuse Industry?] - 2007.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20101115103449/http://www.angryharry.com/es-Charity-Or-Self-Interest.htm?note Charity or Self-Interest?] - 2008.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20140213234445/http://www.angryharry.com/Child-Abuse-The-Real-Culprits.htm Child Abuse: The Real Culprits] - 2014.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Child Advocacy]][[Category:Victims&#039; Rights]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Organisations]][[Category:Organisations: Charity &amp;amp; NGO]][[Category:Organisations: Real-life]][[Category:Organisations: British]][[Category:Organisations: Unsympathetic]][[Category:Organisations: Professional]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Age_of_Consent&amp;diff=34666</id>
		<title>Age of Consent</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Age_of_Consent&amp;diff=34666"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T15:03:59Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;__NOTOC__[[File:Consent.png|thumb|The British National Council for One Parent Families supported abolition in 1979]]&lt;br /&gt;
The &#039;&#039;&#039;Age of [[Consent]]&#039;&#039;&#039; is an arbitrary age at which a person is considered legally capable of consenting to sex within a given country (or with a citizen of that country anywhere in the world, if it has extraterritorial jurisdiction laws). Where a country&#039;s age of consent laws for sexual activity treat people convicted of those offences with the same severity as criminal [[rape]], the law is often referred to as [[statutory rape]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This definition highlights several important factors which go into determining the age of consent. To begin with, it is arbitrary. In other words, the age is not chosen based on an empirical and measurable personal quality which relates to the capacity for consent, but rather, it is chosen as a compromise number based largely on political, social, psychological and judicial precedent factors in a legislative process often only marginally related to the actual capabilities of the individuals to which it is applied. This is seen as necessary when such an age must be determined, despite the fact that no two individuals mature at precisely the same rate.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Another important factor is that of jurisdiction. A jurisdiction represents the abstract collection of individuals over whom a certain legal institution has authority. As a direct consequence of the arbitrariness of the age of consent, the actual number varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. An individual who may be capable of legally consenting in one area may, simply by crossing a border, find that his consent is no longer valid.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Current debate==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:KTkQrjw.jpeg|thumb|1990s initiative to &amp;quot;decriminalise&amp;quot; adult-minor sexual contact (i.e. as with drugs in some countries, the supply would remain illegal and users cared for, but it would not be punished as a crime)]]&lt;br /&gt;
Recent years have seen a general trend towards decriminalizing, or at least destigmatizing sexual acts which carry a burden of moral guilt, but no substantiated evidence of harm. HIV nondisclosure is one such example,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://thecanadiandailynews.com/news/canada/former-barrie-ont-womans-conviction-for-hiv-non-disclosure-overturned/ HIV transmission laws are being described as unscientific]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and similar trends have been seen in sex-work advocacy, [[Research: Recidivism and other offending figures|SOL Reform]] and sex education, the latter leading to accusations of so-called [[grooming]]. It appears there is an [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes|evidentiary base]] for making similar arguments with respect to voluntary minor-adult sex, although critical mass has not yet been reached for such substantial moves.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The following positions on the age of consent are not strict categories:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The &#039;&#039;&#039;authoritarian&#039;&#039;&#039; position holds that current age of consent laws are set at inadequately low ages, and should be revised, in some cases as high as 21 or 25. This position is sometimes based more on antipathy towards sexual behavior among young people rather than extensive authoritarian protectionism.&lt;br /&gt;
*The &#039;&#039;&#039;conservative&#039;&#039;&#039; position (not necessarily right-leaning conservatism) holds that current age of consent laws are appropriate and should be enforced as they stand. This would segue into a globalist conservative position holding that jurisdictions with lower ages of consent should bring themselves up to parity with jurisdictions with higher ones.&lt;br /&gt;
*The &#039;&#039;&#039;libertarian&#039;&#039;&#039; or &#039;&#039;&#039;reformist&#039;&#039;&#039; position holds that while at least in the cultures concerned, age of consent in itself is a valid and desirable concept, the current numbers are too high or unrealistic and should be revised downwards. This might take the form of an [[Ethos of Newgon|elective system]] whereby a minor chooses to emancipate themselves in various areas, including consent to physical relationships.&lt;br /&gt;
*The &#039;&#039;&#039;replacement&#039;&#039;&#039; position holds that the concept of age of consent is not valid for its purported purpose and should be replaced with another system of determining capability to legally consent. The replacements most typically take the form of marriage, or some type of preparation or education, examination or empirically graded &amp;quot;test&amp;quot; to determine whether an individual is &amp;quot;ready&amp;quot;, sometimes coupled with licensing schemes.&lt;br /&gt;
*The &#039;&#039;&#039;repeal&#039;&#039;&#039; position holds that the concept of age of consent should be eliminated completely.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Poll in Britain===&lt;br /&gt;
On November 16, 2003 Channel 4 broadcast a program; &amp;quot;Sex Before 16: Why the Law is Failing&amp;quot; and afterwards conducted a phone poll of its viewers in the United Kingdom.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Of the 3366 respondents to the four options;&lt;br /&gt;
*34% thought the age of consent should be reduced to 14&lt;br /&gt;
*35% thought it should stay at 16&lt;br /&gt;
*13% thought it should be raised to 18&lt;br /&gt;
*18% thought it should be abolished&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://web.archive.org/web/20031124074934/http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/A/adultat14/consent/aoc_vote.shtml&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whilst this would suggest that there is more potential to lower the age, the topic remains controversial, and the Channel 4 viewer sample was questionably left-libertarian biased.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Popular opinion===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is generally hard to gauge popular opinion on this topic, due to a dearth of reliable polling. &#039;&#039;&#039;Debate.org&#039;&#039;&#039; conducted a poll, in which over 2/3rds supported reform, with many radical proposals. Between 2008 and some unknown point, &#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;misterpoll.com&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&#039; published a large list of questions related to the Age of Consent. Their respondents, mainly men, answered mostly between the years of 2008 and 2011. Over half did not support the idea of an age of consent, and 86% agreed that minors should be able to perform in a strip tease. It is unclear how representative this sample is.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.misterpoll.com/polls/332845/results MisterPoll Results] and [https://web.archive.org/web/2011*/https://www.misterpoll.com/polls/332845/results Misterpoll Archived Results]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Debate.org.png|Debate.org&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====Is support for high ages of consent associated with poor intelligence?====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Limited studies suggest that support for maintaining a high age is associated with lesser intelligence.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/t5pmq_v2 Bronski study article on intelligence]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The UN===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A 2023 controversy arose on social media&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/un-backed-legal-recommendations-normalize-sex-minors-critics-say New UN-backed legal recommendations normalize sex with minors, outraged critics say]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; following the publication of new legal principles problematizing the idea that adolescents are inherently unable to [[consent]], including to sex. American conservatives reacted by circulating the theory that such opinions represent an attempt to &amp;quot;soften up&amp;quot; the public prior to the release of supposedly &amp;quot;damning&amp;quot; information concerning [[Jeffrey Epstein]]&#039;s high-profile visitors.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Ages of consent around the world==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Unrestricted hetero AoC.png|250px|right|thumb|&#039;&#039;Unrestricted&#039;&#039; heterosexual ages of consent by legislation: The law of that country or state dictates that any sane and sober person who is this age or older is able to consent to sexual acts with the opposite sex, regardless of any other factor, such as age difference or hierarchy between the partners. The law may still forbid prostitution (paying for sex) or filming/photographing the acts if an underage partner is involved, but the act in itself is legal.]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Authority-only restricted hetero AoC.png|250px|right|thumb|Authority-restricted heterosexual ages of consent by legislation: The law of that country or state dictates that any sane and sober person who is this age or older and &#039;&#039;is not a subordinate to the older partner&#039;&#039; (i.e. the older partner is not their boss, teacher, etc.) is able to consent to sexual acts with the opposite sex.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;For a short analysis of the historical context behind AoC laws and their interpretation, see our article on [[Consent]]. Given the constantly changing nature of AoC laws, an up-to-date list can not be provided here. See [[Wikipedia:Ages of consent by country|Wikipedia]].&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some interesting examples of low ages of consent include Japan&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan AoC.net - Japan]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; (who appear to be raising it&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20230314/p2g/00m/0na/027000c Japan OKs bill to reform sexual offense charge, raise age of consent]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; under Western pressure), Brazil and [[Essay:Peru Lowers Its Age Of Consent--My Analysis|Peru]]. The case of Brazil is described at length, in the document, &#039;&#039;Sexuality, the age of consent and the Brazilian law&#039;&#039;, which describes among other things, proposals in the 10s, to reduce the age from 14 to 12.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://pedrapapeletesoura.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/sexualitytheageofconsentandthebrazilianlaw/ Sexuality, the age of consent and the Brazilian law, by Yure]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; India has faced similar calls, based upon the sheer number of adolescents engaged in illegal sexual activity.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-63953752 Age of consent: Why is consensual teen sex a crime in India?]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While the federal age of consent in Mexico is 15, state laws often override federal law, and state ages of consent vary from 12 to 15. The state law of Nayarit specifies that a person must have reached puberty in order to consent with sex. However, the state age of consent is not unrestricted and factors such as age difference and hierarchical subordination of the younger partner may play a role.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The age of consent in the Philippines was 12 until 2022, when it was raised to 16.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/2022/3/7/Age-of-sexual-consent-Philippines-law.html PH raises age of sexual consent from 12 to 16]. CNN Philippines. March 7, 2022.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the late 70s, New Jersey lowered its age of consent to 13, amid sweeping law reforms. It was raised soon after, but only because of public outcry, not any increase in sexual victimization.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nytimes.com/1979/08/12/archives/new-jersey-law-changes-reflect-the-new-morality-a-compilation-from.html Waldron in NYT: A Decade in the Making, the State&#039;s First Criminal Code Takes Effect Next Month]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; A 2018 act reduced the age of consent in Malta, albeit to fall in line with the rest of Europe at 16. The same act also reduced the voting age to 16.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://lovinmalta.com/news/local/the-age-of-consent-in-malta-has-been-lowered/ The Age Of Consent In Malta Has Been Lowered - J. Cilia for Lovin Malta]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The case of the Netherlands===&lt;br /&gt;
Much discussion has been devoted to the age of consent in the Netherlands. According to a law passed in 1989 (after a much longer period of unofficial liberalization&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.greek-love.com/index.php/modern-europe/netherlands/dutch-policemen-understood-pederasty Dutch Policemen who understood pederasty - Brongersma]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;), even though the age of consent was set at 16, sex between an adult and a young person between 12 and 16 was not an offence if the young person consented to the contact. Prosecutions for coercive sex could be sought by the young person or his/her parents.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The law which stirred much discussion (see Schuijer 1991, 1993, 1995, Faust 1995) and praised as positive for adolescent sexuality ([[Judith Levine|Levine]] 2002, 89) was later repealed in 2002 by a very rare unanimous vote in the Dutch parliament ([[Gert Hekma|Hekma]] 2004).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Initiatives to lower the UK Age of Consent===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At around the turn of the century, a [[Youth Perspectives|poll of 12-16 year old British girls suggested that the age should be lowered to 12]]. Activists such as [[Peter Tatchell]] have long sought to lower the age, arguing that this would be more in line with the lived experiences of young people. In 2013, a leading public health official called for a moderate reduction, but leaders only appeared to be amenable to a close in age exemption and not a &amp;quot;blanket reduction&amp;quot;. John Ashton advocated the moderate reduction to 15, but was shut out of the public debate.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://fstube.net/w/puTFEqCBRLcprr9M38ge9W John Ashton, 2013]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/17/no-10-rejects-lower-age-consent-sex No 10 rejects call to lower age of consent]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Earlier (in the 70s and 80s), the British National Council for One Parent Families (image inset) had even advocated for abolition, being [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|joined by various Gay and MAP groups]]. In 1979, close to the peak of liberal attitudes on this topic, even the Home Office argued that the age of consent be lowered from 16 to 14, calling for a dramatic reduction in statutory punishments for consensual sex with girls as young as 12 in an internal research study obtained by the Guardian.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/08/lower-age-consent-14-1979-home-office-report Whitehall study wanted age of consent lowered to 14 and sentences for sex cut]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Reasons for increasing the Age of Consent==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As explained by [[Wikipedia:Age of consent#History and social attitudes|Wikipedia]], ages of consent were often set around the age of puberty or marriage until the reforms of the 19th and 20th Centuries, and were very much open to interpretation. In postindustrial Victorian England, changing attitudes around the institution of childhood and prologation of education, aided by Christian/Feminist Social Purity campaigners, [[Moral Enterprise|moral entrepreneurs]] and journalists such as W. T. Stead, - led to changes that spread the world over.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;W. T. Stead engendered a moral panic in Britain after he paid to have a 13 year old girl drugged and abducted by brothel staff, fabricated a story that the 13 year old girl was raped, and was himself arrested and convicted for the abduction in the process. The ensuing panic resulted in the UK raising the age of sexual consent from 13 to 16, and even when Stead&#039;s publicity stunt was exposed, the age of consent was not returned back to 13. See, for example, [https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/oct/16/books.guardianreview Skill for scandal] (&#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039; on W. T. Stead, 1999).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is important to note that ages of consent were not initially raised and enforced for the same reasons we presently uphold them:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;“Sexual consent is now understood by many – although not all – as a marker of when girls (and boys) are ‘allowed’ or likely to have sexual intercourse as much as a signifier of their capacity to consent. For the Victorians, sexual consent was certainly not a recommended or permitted age of sexual activity. The 1885 law on sexual consent meant, to cite the 1908 Royal Commissioners on the Care and Control of the Feeble-Minded, that ‘[t]he power of consenting to unlawful defilement … &#039;&#039;&#039;has been taken from girls under sixteen&#039;&#039;&#039;’. This wording is significant: the right to consent was ‘taken away’ from girls under the age of consent, rather than given to those above it. Few commentators approved of sexual intercourse outside of marriage, which was expected to occur in the mid-20s rather than at the legal age of marriage (14 for boys and 12 for girls) or age of sexual consent.”&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-legacy-of-1885-girls-and-the-age-of-sexual-consent The legacy of 1885: girls and the age of sexual consent, by Victoria Bates]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [our emphasis]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Oftentimes, when opposition to British-style increased age of consent statutes was voiced during the empire&#039;s fall, it took the form of an anti-imperialist argument.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://sumitamukherjee.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/sarda-act-article-version.pdf Sumita Mukherjee, ‘Using the Legislative Assembly for Social Reform: The Sarda Act 1929’, South Asia Research, 26, 3, (November 2006).] &#039;&#039;There were also political and nationalist concerns for reformers within the Legislative Assembly. In the 1890s, the nationalist leader Bal Gandadhar Tilak had been opposed to the Age of Consent Bill because he did not want India’s advancement to be dependent upon British help. Now that Indians were more involved and represented in the debating chamber, they could argue that their advancement was no longer dependent upon the British.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Consent]] - Explores the concept and links to specific articles on Newgon.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Debate Guide: Problems with the Age of Consent]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Mature Minor]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Age of majority]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230.html Age of Consent Laws - Summary article by Stephen Robertson]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.scarleteen.com/article/abuse_assault/the_age_of_consent_for_what_exactly The age of consent... for what, exactly?] - Heather Corinna, for &#039;&#039;Scarleteen&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform AoC Reform - Wikipedia]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_by_country The definitive list] - Ages of consent on Wikipedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://secure.boychat.org/messages/1607318.htm Reading list - published on BC]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/wwaoc.htm Worldwide Ages of Consent] - a table presumably dated from around 2012&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References and further reading==&lt;br /&gt;
*Baker, C. (1983) [https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1177/144078338301900105 &amp;quot;The Age of Consent Controversy: Age and Gender As Social Practice.&amp;quot;] Australian &amp;amp; New Zealand Journal of Sociology 19(1): 96-112.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Michael C. Baurmann|Baurmann, M.]] (2005) &amp;quot;[https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1300/J056v16n02_07 Sexuality, Adolescence and the Criminal Law: The Perspective of Criminology.]&amp;quot; Journal of Psychology &amp;amp; Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 71-88.&lt;br /&gt;
*Böllinger, L. (2005) [https://sci-hub.se/10.1300/j056v16n02_08 &amp;quot;Adolescence, Sexual Aggression and the Criminal Law.&amp;quot;] Journal of Psychology &amp;amp; Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 89-104.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma, E.]] (1980) [https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article/20/1/20/378071 &amp;quot;The meaning of &#039;indecency&#039; with respect to moral offences involving children.&amp;quot;] British Journal of Criminology 20(1): 20-34.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma, E.]] (1988) [https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/brong_88_frame.htm &amp;quot;A Defence of Sexual Liberty for All Age Groups.&amp;quot;] Howard Journal of Criminal Justice 27(1): 32-43.&lt;br /&gt;
*Brown, M. (1996) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13572339608420468 &amp;quot;The Age of Consent: The Parliamentary Campaign in the UK to Lower the Age of Consent for Homosexual Acts.&amp;quot;] Journal of Legislative Studies 2(2): 1-7.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Vern Bullough|Bullough, V. L.]] (2005) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v16n02_03 &amp;quot;Age of Consent: A Historical Overview.&amp;quot;] Journal of Psychology &amp;amp; Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 25-42.&lt;br /&gt;
*Cocca, C. E. (2004) [https://networks.h-net.org/node/18732/reviews/19007/littauer-cocca-jailbait-politics-statutory-rape-laws-united-states Jailbait: The Politics of Statutory Rape Laws in the United States]. Albany, NY: State University of New York Press.&lt;br /&gt;
*Coleman, E. [http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/WAS1.htm Letter to EU President Prodi (2001)]&lt;br /&gt;
*Ellis, S. J. and C. Kitzinger (2002) [https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Denying-equality%3A-an-analysis-of-arguments-against-Ellis-Kitzinger/184be7a20082718aa34e4eea37bac3d8232c9e4b &amp;quot;Denying equality: An analysis of arguments against lowering the age of consent for sex between men.&amp;quot;] Journal of Community &amp;amp; Applied Social Psychology 12(3): 167-180.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Beatrice_Faust|Faust]], B. (1995) [[Media:(1995) Faust - Child Sexuality and AOC - The Netherlands Model.pdf|&amp;quot;Child sexuality and age of consent laws: The Netherlands model.&amp;quot;]] Australasian Gay and Lesbian Law Journal, 5, pp. 78-85.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Helmut_Graupner|Graupner, H.]] (1999) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10482330/ &amp;quot;Love versus abuse: crossgenerational sexual relations of minors: a gay rights issue?&amp;quot;] Journal of Homosexuality 37(4): 23-56.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Helmut_Graupner|Graupner, H.]] (2000) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1001986103125 &amp;quot;Sexual consent: The criminal law in Europe and overseas.&amp;quot;] Archives of Sexual Behavior 29(5): 415-461.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Helmut_Graupner|Graupner, H.]] (2005) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v16n02_02 &amp;quot;The 17-Year-Old Child: An Absurdity of the Late 20th Century.&amp;quot;] Journal of Psychology &amp;amp; Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 7-24. (.pdf file)&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Gert Hekma|Hekma, G.]] (2004) &amp;quot;Queer: The Dutch case.&amp;quot; GLQ: A Journal of Gay and Lesbian Studies 10(2): 276-280.&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Erwin Haeberle|Haeberle, E.J.]] (June 27, 2001) [http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/letterprodi.htm A Dangerous New Definition of Childhood: Letter to the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi]&lt;br /&gt;
*Hofmeister, L. (2005) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v16n02_06 &amp;quot;14 to 18 Year Olds as &#039;Children&#039; by Law? Reflections on Developments in National European Law.&amp;quot;] Journal of Psychology &amp;amp; Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 63-70.&lt;br /&gt;
*Killias, M. (1990) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v20n01_05 &amp;quot;The Historic Origins of Penal Statutes Concerning Sexual Activities Involving Children and Adolescents.&amp;quot;] Journal of Homosexuality 20 (1/2): 41-46.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Terry_Leahy|Leahy]], T. (1996). [https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/sex-and-age-consent-ethical-issues &amp;quot;Sex and the age of consent: the ethical issues.&amp;quot;] Social Analysis 39(April): 27-55.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Judith Levine|Levine, J.]] (2002). [http://library.lol/main/4EB3A2F1FB22A7FDB0C327E57D0665E2 Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children From Sex]. Mineapolis: University of Minnesota Press.&lt;br /&gt;
*Maplestone, P. and R. Roberts (2002) &amp;quot;Young gay men and the age of consent in New South Wales.&amp;quot; Word is Out 3(June): 13-21. (.pdf file)&lt;br /&gt;
*Mawby, R. I. (1979) &amp;quot;[https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-1971(79)80005-6 Policing the Age of Consent.]&amp;quot; Journal of Adolescence 2(1): 41-49.&lt;br /&gt;
*Powell, D. E. B. (1994) &amp;quot;Homosexuality and Age of Consent.&amp;quot; Lancet 343(8898): 674.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Bruce Rind|Rind, B.]], P. Tromovitch &amp;amp; R. Bauserman (2001) &amp;quot;The validity and appropriateness of methods, analyses, and conclusions in Rind et al. (1998): A rebuttal of victimological critique from Ondersma et al. (2001) and Dallam et al. (2001).&amp;quot; Psychological Bulletin 127: 734-758.&lt;br /&gt;
*Robertson, S. (2002) &amp;quot;Age of consent law and the making of modern childhood in New York City, 1886-1921.&amp;quot; Journal of Social History 35(4): 781-798.&lt;br /&gt;
*Thomson, R. (2004) [https://oro.open.ac.uk/6435/ ‘An Adult Thing?’ Young People’s Perspectives on the Heterosexual Age of Consent]. Sexualities, 7(2), 133-149.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Jan Schuijer|Schuijer, J.]] (1991) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v20n01_13 &amp;quot;Tolerance at Arm&#039;s Length: The Dutch Experience.&amp;quot;] Journal of Homosexuality 20 (1/2): 199-229.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Jan Schuijer|Schuijer, J.]] (1993) &amp;quot;The Netherlands Changes its Age Of Consent Law.&amp;quot; Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia 3(1): 13-17.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Jan Schuijer|Schuijer, J.]] (1995) &amp;quot;Recent Legal Developments in the Netherlands.&amp;quot; Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia 3(4): 64-71.&lt;br /&gt;
*Waites, Matthew. 2005 &#039;&#039;[[The Age of Consent (book)|The Age of Consent]]: Young People, Sexuality and Citizenship&#039;&#039; (2005). Find at [https://archive.org/details/waites-aoc Internet Archive] and [https://annas-archive.org/md5/dbfb9d50125c52d17561f34f4c295fb7 annas-archive], or through [[Help:Research Resources|Research Resources - Information Freedom Companions]] if inaccessible.&lt;br /&gt;
*Weber, A. (2001) &amp;quot;Europeanwide Criminalization of Juvenile Sexuality up to 18.&amp;quot; EuroLetter 91: 6-8.&lt;br /&gt;
*Weis, D. and V. L. Bullough (2005) &amp;quot;Adolescent American Sex.&amp;quot; Journal of Psychology &amp;amp; Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 43-54.&lt;br /&gt;
*Bourne PA, Brown N (2026) [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/403546354_Psychosocial_Implications_of_the_Age_of_Sexual_Consent_Being_16_Years_in_Jamaica_Article_Information_Corresponding_author_Distributed_under_Creative_Commons_CC-BY_40/link/69d3d4463c61894306741d97/download Psychosocial Implications of the Age of Sexual Consent Being 16 Years in Jamaica]. Adv Res Psych &amp;amp; Behav Sci.&lt;br /&gt;
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==References==&lt;br /&gt;
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{{reflist}}&lt;br /&gt;
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[[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: Crime Types]][[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:Youth]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
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		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Moral_panic&amp;diff=34665</id>
		<title>Moral panic</title>
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		<updated>2026-07-01T15:02:42Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
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:&#039;&#039;For consequences of moral panic over &amp;quot;sexual offending&amp;quot;, see [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria|Adverse effects of hysteria]].&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
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&#039;&#039;&#039;Moral panic&#039;&#039;&#039; refers to a phenomenon in which mainstream society experiences large amounts of fear and uncertainty fuelled by the perception that a particular moral institution (such as [[Childhood Innocence|childhood innocence]]) or group of people (such as [[child]]ren or [[Adolescence|adolescents]]) are under threat. The perceived threat often comes in the form of a socially excluded, alien group of people ([[pedophile]]s or sex offenders) and the ideologies and real life events attributed to them. Necessary to the incitement of moral panic is the persistant exchange of [[misinformation]], by the media for example.&lt;br /&gt;
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The concept is often used in the British sociological sense to refer to shorter-term events&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic Wikipedia - Moral Panic]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, such as groups of hooligans or mods supposedly inciting flash panics in society, and the resulting authoritarian crackdowns. This (while it was the original usage, by Stanley Cohen), is a highly questionable phenomenon, since it usually relies on [[moral enterprise]] and media/institutional involvement to manufacture consent to &amp;quot;moral panics&amp;quot;. Academics such as [[Bill Thompson]] describe the British theory of Moral Panic as a bourgeoise construct of middle-class sociologists who themselves partake in this manufacturing of panic and benefit from it. &lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;quot;Critical Realist&amp;quot; theorists such as David Pilgrim may argue that CSA does not fulfil the &amp;quot;criteria&amp;quot; of a moral panic on various technical grounds.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://sci-hub.se/10.1002/car.2497 Pilgrim, D. (2017). Academic Disputes about Adult-Child Sexual Contact: A Critical Realist Appraisal. Child Abuse Review, 27(3), 171–180.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that childhood innocence/purity discourse and its offshoots have led to a series of rolling panics throughout western society (amplified by moral entrepreneurs in politics, media and the professional sphere), forcing the economic and recreational institutions to react in varying ways. Thus, within an academic context, CSA (as we now know it) is perhaps better described as a moral technology, or a technology of power.&lt;br /&gt;
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==Timeline==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===The beginnings of (anti)sexual morality===&lt;br /&gt;
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Controls on sexuality have been used to varying degrees in traditional cultures&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://books.google.com/books/about/How_Sex_Got_Screwed_Up_The_Ghosts_that_H.html?id=DOVwDwAAQBAJ How Sex Got Screwed Up: The Ghosts that Haunt Our Sexual Pleasure, by Jon Knowles], see also [https://vernonpress.com/book/417 Vernon Press website.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, but what we now know as Christian sexual morality goes back a lot further than the present era of repeated moral panics, possibly even before the founding of the religion, as revealed in scripture&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sexuality Bible Verses about Sexuality - Knowing Jesus]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) and other sinful/wasteful/impure indulgences were the target, rather than [[Debate Guide: Religious arguments|intergenerational encounters per se]].&lt;br /&gt;
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*Some [[Wikipedia:Antisexuality|forms of early ascetic Gnosticism held all matter to be evil]], and that unnecessary gratifications of the physical senses were to be avoided. Married couples were encouraged to be chaste. The Skoptsys were a radical sect of the Russian Orthodox Church that practiced castration and amputation of sexual organs. They believed that Christ had been castrated during his crucifixion, and it was this castration that brought about salvation.&lt;br /&gt;
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*[[Augustine of Hippo (Saint Augustine)|Augustine of Hippo]] is often held up as an early example of a Puritanical Theologian:&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Sex has always been a thorny problem for Christianity. Since the religion’s early stages, its doctrines have included an antisensual strain—a sense that sexual love is at best a necessary evil &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; The greatest early champion of that puritanical, antisexual approach was &#039;&#039;&#039;St. Augustine&#039;&#039;&#039;, a monk who lived in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. As Pagels shows, his personal history was extremely important in shaping beliefs that eventually dominated the church’s policies in critical areas. As a young man, Augustine had freely indulged in the sexual licentiousness common during the declining years of the Roman Empire. By his own admission, he was ruled by an insatiable lust. Then, when he converted to Christianity, he became obsessed with triumphing over the temptations of the flesh. He valued [[Virtuous Pedophiles|celibacy]] more than married life and emphasized the essential depravity of the human race. Adam and Eve’s disobedience, Augustine argued, tainted their descendants forever after with what he called “original sin.”&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1988/8/15/of-carnal-knowledge John Bemrose&#039;s short review of &#039;&#039;Of carnal knowledge: ADAM, EVE, AND THE SERPENT, By Elaine Pagels&#039;&#039;.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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*There are reports of men and boys being burned at the stake by the Church for [[Pederasty|mutually consented sexual activity]] in the &#039;&#039;&#039;middle ages&#039;&#039;&#039; - a period spanning from 500 AD to roughly 1500. The prohibition appears to have been on homosexuality and sodomitical activity in general.&lt;br /&gt;
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*In the following Renaissance era, [[Age of Consent|ages of consent]] were soon established - usually 10-12 for girls. &lt;br /&gt;
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*The late 1600s begin the slow birth of &amp;quot;public opinion&amp;quot; as a monolithic entity - coffee houses and gentlemen&#039;s clubs serve as a base for polite society, and mass media proliferates in the form of high circulation newspapers from the 1800s.&lt;br /&gt;
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*In &#039;&#039;&#039;1762&#039;&#039;&#039;, [[Wikipedia:Emile, or On Education|Emile, or On Education]] by [[Jean-Jacques Rousseau]] is published. The popular idea of childhood innocence pioneered by such romanticists begins to gain traction. The idea of insanity is slowly bought into the realm of medicine during the enlightenment, and sexual deviance is similarly medicalized. Psychiatry (as a medical science) emerges in the &#039;&#039;&#039;1800s&#039;&#039;&#039;, along with official pathologization of [[masturbation]], which had long been regarded as dysfunctional or immoral by learned men.&lt;br /&gt;
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===The &amp;quot;panic era&amp;quot; from roughly 1880===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Cycle.png|thumb|400px|Charting the cycles of panic]]Since the Victorian era, mass media/politics, industrialization, globalization and the artificial extension of childhood have all allowed for a series of moral panics concerning the erotic potential of children and minors. We are at the start of a fourth panic, which relates to normalization of sexual and romantic attractions towards minors. We insert titles to identify the rough start and end of different waves of moral panic in the graphic on the right.&lt;br /&gt;
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====&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;background:yellow&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Identification (Child Pro) Panic, and &amp;quot;Paraphilia&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;====&lt;br /&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;1857&#039;&#039;&#039; - The first Law criminalizing pornography was [[Wikipedia:Obscene Publications Act 1857|Lord Campbell&#039;s Act]], in effect, a ban of any material &amp;quot;intended&amp;quot; to corrupt. Lord Campbell was the Chief Justice at the time and justified his ruling, assuring that it was &amp;quot;...intended to apply exclusively to works written for the single purpose of corrupting the morals of youth and of a nature calculated to shock the common feelings of decency in any well-regulated mind.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;1868&#039;&#039;&#039; - Sir Alexander Cockburn III amended the UK definition of obscenity in appeal to include &amp;quot;...whether the tendency of the matter charged as obscenity is to deprave and corrupt those whose minds are open to such immoral influences and into whose hands a publication of this sort may fall.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
        &lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1873&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Comstock laws|Comstock laws]] criminalize US &amp;quot;interstate transport&amp;quot; of &amp;quot;obscene, lewd, or lascivious&amp;quot; material. Pornography was effectively outlawed.&lt;br /&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;1874&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children|New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children]] is founded by Quakers and Moral Crusaders - the world’s first organization devoted entirely to child protection. Ten years later, the [[NSPCC]] is founded in England, and [[Wikipedia:W. T. Stead|W. T. Stead&#039;s]] &#039;&#039;&#039;1885&#039;&#039;&#039; exposé of child prostitution in London, “&#039;&#039;The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon&#039;&#039;,” boosted the circulation of the Pall Mall Gazette ten times. Stead engenders a moral panic after he paid to have a 13 year old girl drugged and abducted by brothel staff, fabricated a story that the 13 year old girl was raped, and was himself arrested and convicted for the abduction in the process. The ensuing panic resulted in the UK raising the age of sexual consent from 13 to 16, and even when Stead&#039;s publicity stunt was exposed, the age of consent was not returned back to 13.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/oct/16/books.guardianreview Skill for scandal] (&#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039; on W. T. Stead, 1999).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; The protection of girls becomes framed as a women&#039;s issue, causing feminist collaborators and the [[Wikipedia:Social purity movement|social purity movement]] to seize upon the panic - working alongside religious organizations such as the Salvation Army and Liberal politicians. The [[Wikipedia:Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885|initial act]] that raised the Age of Consent from 13 to 16 was not so much designed for the protection of all children, but rather to propagate middle class morality to the masses, particularly in relation to girls&#039; virtue. It also criminalized non-anal homosexuality and ramped up measures against sex workers.&lt;br /&gt;
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*During the same era, [[Homosexuality]] and [[Pedophilia]] are formalized by psychiatrists as medical diagnoses, later going on to be grouped together as [[Wikipedia:Paraphilia#History|&amp;quot;Paraphilias&amp;quot;]] (see also, [[Paraphilia|our position]] on that term). Like the lawmakers, the German psychiatrists who invented these categories&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s10508-016-0883-3 Janssen, D. F. (2016). “Chronophilia”: Appreciating 150 Years of Puzzle-Solving. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 46(1), 35–38. ]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; did not hide their moralistic motivations, since they as well supported the beating of children who [[Masturbation|self-pleasured]]. While paraphilias did exist as diagnostic categories, they were far from being [[Reification|reified]] as part of the public lexicon. While the girl victim was given copious attention, and thus approached something akin to a concrete identity, there is no consensus that any such thing as the modern-day &amp;quot;pedophile&amp;quot; or its equivalent had entered the popular psyche. Depictions in gothic fiction contributed to perceptions of a monstrous stranger emerging from the shadows - a man of lesser virtue who exists almost entirely outside of middle class society.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/08905495.2021.1897373 Bulfin. (2021). “Monster, give me my child”: how the myth of the paedophile as a monstrous stranger took shape in emerging discourses on child sexual abuse in late nineteenth-century Britain. Nineteenth-Century Contexts, 43(2), 221–245.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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*Following the yellow journalism panics and UK law reforms, lawmakers begin to raise ages of consent throughout the Anglosphere, including America.&lt;br /&gt;
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====&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;background:#e6adbc&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Pathologization (Molester) Panic&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;====&lt;br /&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;1920s&#039;&#039;&#039; - The media start seizing upon examples of &amp;quot;sexual deviance&amp;quot; among psychopathic criminals, including child murderers. The &amp;quot;sexual psychopath&amp;quot; and uncontrollable molester myth enters the public psyche, but still the &amp;quot;pedophile&amp;quot; is almost unheard of. For the first time, the idea of this problem as a medical-legal one as opposed to a moral or religious one is sold wholesale to the public. Examples include [[Wikipedia:Albert Fish|Albert Fish]], a notorious and unrepentant serial child rapist and cannibal who courted significant publicity for his actions.&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1930s-50s&#039;&#039;&#039; - De Orio notes &amp;quot;In the 1930s, ’40s, and ’50s, lawmakers enacted new “sexual psychopath” and other sex offender laws in an effort to combat sex crimes of all kinds but especially ones involving children. In practice, those laws gave the police the discretion to enforce them in a discriminatory and disproportionate way against gay men, and furthermore the stereotype of the gay child molester underpinned and served to justify the over-criminalization of even homosexual conduct involving only consenting adults.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=deorio/&amp;gt; In 1930, obscenity law amended to include the overall work instead of out of context sections. This was clarified through two incidents. Mary Ware Dennet was charged with obscenity for a sex education book and James Joyce&#039;s Ulysses was stopped at the U.S. border.&lt;br /&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;1950s&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[J. Edgar Hoover]]&#039;s &amp;quot;Stranger Danger&amp;quot; campaigns begin, targeting gays. According to De Orio, the state conflated the category of the male homosexual with the category of the child molester. In the eyes of the state, all homosexuals were potential child molesters, and vice-versa. The notion of the “pedophile,” as distinct from the “homosexual,” was still not prevalent at this time. He adds that police departments cracked down increasingly on men who were involved in sexual activity with teenage boys, some of whom were actually straight hustlers whom the state criminalized as “juvenile delinquents.”&amp;lt;ref name=deorio/&amp;gt; Public information films from this era are a common trope of the gay molester/stranger danger panic, recycled frequently to this very day.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://fstube.net/w/3WL9JsYgtDWyfQKxTYygTv Stranger danger public information film]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://archive.org/details/boys_beware Boys Beware] ([https://fstube.net/w/v1BKbgyphJ8vJsSHmKgpzH backup])&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1957-62&#039;&#039;&#039; - The [[Model Penal Code|Model Penal Code]] in the US and the [[Wikipedia:Wolfenden report|Wolfenden Report]] in Britain advocate for the decriminalization of adult homosexuality. From this point on, the concepts of homosexuality and child molestation slowly begin to be defined as separate categories. Prior to the decriminalization of homosexuality, gays and pederasts were treated under the same legal schemes, with arguably some police departments allocating more resources to pursuing &amp;quot;deviant&amp;quot; non-pederastic homosexuals. A 1964 video calmly relays contemporary (mis)conceptions of the &amp;quot;child molester&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://archive.org/details/0424_Child_Molester_The_01_00_05_00 &amp;quot;The Child Molester.&amp;quot; (Highway safety Films). Emphasizes the danger of attacks on children, dramatizing typical approaches. Shows what can be done to reduce the problem by making children aware of it and ready to take precautions when accosted by strangers.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In 1957, Roth v. United States established that obscenity was not protected by the First Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. Justice William Brennan declared all forms of pornography as &amp;quot;prurient&amp;quot; and without social value.&lt;br /&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;1960s&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/07/the-chickens-and-the-bulls-the-rise-and-incredible-fall-of-a-vicious-extortion-ring-that-preyed-on-prominent-gay-men-in-the-1960s.html Late 1960s - Slate.com]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&#039; - For a long time, the mob had run extortion schemes against prominent pederasts and gays, however, the 60s were a time of relative latency in the war against sex offenders. Gay liberation and homophile activists were joined by sexual freedom activists, and progress began to be made with law reforms.&amp;lt;ref name=deorio/&amp;gt; The decade ends with the Stonewall Riots, an event after which the [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|Gay Movement frequently allied with pederasts and youth libs]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1962-69&#039;&#039;&#039; - The &amp;quot;discovery&amp;quot; of [[Wikipedia:Child abuse#History|Battered Child Syndrome]] introduces the idea of child abuse as a widespread phenomenon as opposed to a one-off act.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://academic.oup.com/shm/article/28/4/767/2510436?login=false ‘The bones tell a story the child is too young or too frightened to tell’: The Battered Child Syndrome in Post-war Britain and America]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; For the first time, society as a whole is pathologized, heralding a new era of problematization (the next wave of the panic).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;background:#add8e6&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Problematization (CSA) Panic&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;====&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Robinlloyd.jpg|thumb|Robin Lloyd&#039;s 1978 expose of American Boy Prostitution]]&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;April 1971&#039;&#039;&#039; – Florence Rush presents her ground-breaking: “The Sexual Abuse of Children: A Feminist Point of View” about childhood sexual abuse and incest, at the New York Radical Feminists Rape Conference. Focus is on sexual violence against female children within the family, seen as a pervasive, if not universal factor in socializing females to accept subservient &amp;amp; submissive role in society. Sexual violence is reframed as an inherently political, women’s issue.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1973&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Sybil (Schreiber book)|&#039;&#039;Sybil&#039;&#039;]] (1973) by Flora Rheta Schreiber told the “true story” of a woman suffering from multiple personality disorder (now known as dissociative identity disorder) and the psychoanalyst, Cornelia B. Wilbur, who “cures” her. It is now widely derided as deceptive and sensational, but was a bestseller and arguably pivotal in initiating the panics that were to come.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1973&#039;&#039;&#039; – Revelations that dozens of teenage boys had been tortured, raped, murdered and secretly buried by serial killer Dean Corll. Rumors that the boys had been involved in prostitution and/or pornography are encouraged by Police leadership, blaming victim “lifestyle” for the tragedy to offset parent’s revelations that police had refused to investigate the disappearance of the early victims. No verification of lifestyle claims from any family members or friends of the deceased. Boy prostitution and pornography operations are later uncovered in California, the [[Lyric International|DOM-LYRIC]] case (police attempt to link it to the previous case). In Houston, the Roy Ames case, 1973-75, again unrelated. In &#039;&#039;&#039;1974&#039;&#039;&#039;, The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) passed in the U.S.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1975&#039;&#039;&#039; – Dr [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]] publishes &#039;&#039;“Incest as a causative factor in anti-social behavior: An exploratory study”&#039;&#039; in Contemporary Drug Problems. Establishes incest of female children as a public health issue linked to drug addiction and prostitution. In the same year, family members of children living in Christian Brothers run orphanage in Newfoundland Canada, supported by a concerned community employee, attempt to reveal the long history of physical and sexual abuse of the boys by the staff, which is ongoing. The whistle is blown over local radio, inciting police investigation but is quashed by collusion of prominent Catholics. Efforts continue however, over the next decade.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1974–76&#039;&#039;&#039; – Pederast network shut down by police investigation and successful prosecution of several principle conspirators, revealed in three linked cases: the New Orleans Boy Scout troop (Halvorsen), the Tennessee Boy’s Farm (Vermylie) and Brother Paul’s Christian Mission – Michigan (Gerald Richards). Dozens of boys aged 10-19 years linked with multiple men in prostitution and pornography operations over the previous 5 years. Perpetrators ran charities providing services to “wayward” or delinquent boys previously identified as juvenile prostitutes, including short and long term crisis housing. Images of the victims published as pornography.&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:Bryant.jpg|thumb|Anita Bryant is the archetypal conservative problematizer, but was joined by lesbian feminists. Her threat was designed to shame mainstream gays into submission]]&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1977–79&#039;&#039;&#039; – Densen-Gerber and Det. [[Lloyd Martin]] (LAPD) aggressively lobby state and federal legislators for new laws effectively banning and criminalizing possession or sale of [[child pornography]]. Heavy print media coverage of these issues, multiple hearings with testimony from various social sciences experts, incarcerated perpetrators, models. Victimization of children in state or private custody of various kinds is a secondary focus. In &#039;&#039;&#039;1978&#039;&#039;&#039;, John Wayne Gacy confessed to police that since 1972, he had sexually assaulted, tortured and murdered approximately 25 to 30 teenage males, whom he falsely claimed were all runaways or male prostitutes, burying many of them in a crawlspace under his home. In &#039;&#039;&#039;1979&#039;&#039;&#039;, Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy publishes “The Public School Phenomenon” in the UK, documenting a long history &amp;amp; culture of relationships between older and younger students, as well as violence perpetrated on residents by other residents and staff.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1977&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Anita Bryant]] launches her divisive [[Wikipedia:Save Our Children|Save Our Children]] campaign, splitting the gay movement against the pederasts. While some radical voices argued for age inclusivity, the dominant faction saw that as a recipe for disaster and (foreshadowing the gay marriage movement) tried to minimize the differences between gay culture and heteronormativity, assimilating itself first to the latter&#039;s stigmatization of youth sexuality as deviant and harmful and later to its stigmatization of all sex outside of marriage (or, at least, of a monogamous relationship). &amp;quot;Consenting Adults&amp;quot; became the slogan for gay [[assimilationism]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Our_Children Save Our Children]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref name=deorio&amp;gt;[https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/138757/sadeorio_1.pdf Scott De Orio]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; By &#039;&#039;&#039;1978&#039;&#039;&#039;, Bryant&#039;s campaign falters as an attempt to ban gay teachers is defeated in California. De Orio notes &amp;quot;In response to the decreasing popularity of “the homosexual” as a demonic figure, law enforcement officials such as the LAPD detective [[Lloyd Martin]] refocused their energies on demonizing the “pedophile.” By focusing less on homosexuality per se and more on other, less sympathetic deviant subjects, who remained outside the boundaries of identity politics, conservatives managed to pursue a law-and-order agenda with respect to sex crimes unhindered by resistance from gay and progressive activists.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=deorio/&amp;gt; In &#039;&#039;&#039;1978&#039;&#039;&#039;, [[NAMBLA]] is set up, in response to an anti-gay anti-youth and anti-pederast witch-hunt in Revere, Massachusetts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1978-1980&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Jacqueline Livingston|Jacqueline Livingston]] targeted and surveilled by the [[American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children]] and FBI for nude photography of her son and other male nudes. She is remembered as one of the first victims of the newly introduced [[Child Pornography|child pornography]] laws, but was never convicted.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1979&#039;&#039;&#039; - The highly influential [[David Finkelhor]]&#039;s first book, &#039;&#039;Sexually Victimized Children&#039;&#039; is published, going on to shape policy and practise. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1980&#039;&#039;&#039; – [[Wikipedia:Lawrence Pazder|Lawrence Pazder]] publishes &#039;&#039;[[Michelle Remembers]]&#039;&#039;, inventing the terminology and concepts of [[Wikipedia:Satanic panic|Satanic Ritual Abuse]]/Ritual Abuse/Ritualized Abuse. Pazder attempts to have Michelle Smith declared a living saint by the Vatican. Throughout the 1980s, &amp;quot;pedophilia&amp;quot; and the &amp;quot;pedophile&amp;quot; enters the wider public lexicon, a trend that intensifies in the following decades.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1982-86&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Disappearance of Johnny Gosch|Johnny Gosch]] and a succession of other Des Moines teenage boys go missing over the following years. Speculation is rife as to organized &amp;quot;pedophile&amp;quot; conspiracy.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1983&#039;&#039;&#039; – The first adult women claiming to be survivors of SRA are being evaluated and studied by psychiatric staff in California. Allegations are of long term sadistic abuse by satanic family cult members, with supernatural elements and frequent diagnosis of the previously rare Multiple Personality Disorder, and as in previous cases, are pumped by a political alliance of right and left.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://medium.com/the-radical-center/when-sex-hysteria-was-left-wing-13153ec25861 Medium: When Sex Hysteria was Left Wing]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; By &#039;&#039;&#039;1985&#039;&#039;&#039;, media coverage of CSA issues is entirely focused on women’s allegations of satanic cult abuse and mind control in childhood, or large-scale daycare abuse accusation cases with allegations by some parents that children have revealed SRA victimization. Child protection resources are also dominated by cases of this nature, as are police child sex crime investigation resources, and psychiatric treatment/therapy services for women and child sexual abuse victims. In the mid-80s, the &amp;quot;abuse survivor&amp;quot; concept is born as an identity; a segment of society that is commercially targeted by therapists.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1984&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Traci Lords|Traci Lords]] makes her first adult film, &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;What Gets Me Hot.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039; She made over 20 movies and numerous magazine appearances, including the famous Penthouse that also featured Vanessa Williams. She was arrested with the owners of X-citement Video. All charges were dropped. The identification she used was a U.S. Passport with the name of Traci Lords, so the owners were not liable and as a minor, Traci was not accountable.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1986&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Meese Report|Meese Report]] is published in the U.S. The report is the result of a comprehensive investigation into pornography ordered by U.S. President Ronald Reagan, and in 1,960 pages, establishes the harmfulness of pornography by way of fabrication, suggestion and conjecture.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1988&#039;&#039;&#039; - The million plus best-seller &#039;&#039;[[Courage To Heal]]&#039;&#039; is published by Laura Bass and Ellen Davis. Abuse survivor self-help takes off as a genre. &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;The long term effects of child sexual abuse can be so pervasive that it’s sometimes hard to pinpoint exactly how the abuse affected you. It permeates everything: your sense of self, your intimate relationships, your sexuality, your parenting, your work life, even your sanity. Everywhere you look, you see its effects.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* In the &#039;&#039;&#039;late 80s and early 90s&#039;&#039;&#039;, a number of photography controversies rocked the American intelligentsia as [[Child Pornography]] laws continued to be tightened. Cincinnati Contemporary Arts Center director Dennis Barrie is charged with violating obscenity laws for presenting &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Perfect Moment|Robert Mapplethorpe: The Perfect Moment]].&amp;quot; He is acquitted by a jury. FBI and local police break into San Francisco photographer [[Wikipedia:Jock Sturges|Jock Sturges]]&#039;s home to investigate a photo-lab tip that Sturges is a child pornographer. Ten months after confiscating most of his possessions, and destroying some of his film stock and records, charges had still not been filed. Reflecting on these high-profile cases, academic Laura Marks (1990) argued that &amp;quot;A moral panic over the production of child pornography has swept the United States.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1525/aft.1990.18.4.12 Laura U. Marks, Minor Infractions: Child Pornography and the Legislation of Morality. &#039;&#039;Afterimage&#039;&#039; (1 November, 1990); 18:(4), pp. 12–14].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [[Wikipedia:Sally Mann|Sally Mann]] is another example of a photographer who faced similar controversy in the 90s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1990s&#039;&#039;&#039; - U.S. passes [[Wikipedia:Megan&#039;s Law|Megan&#039;s Law]], among other domestic initiatives, while pursuing ever more imperialist sex, drugs and trafficking initiatives abroad. [[Wikipedia:Sexually violent predator laws|Sexually Violent Predator (SVP) laws]] are passed, allowing indeterminate incarceration. In conjunction with the implementation of Megan&#039;s law requirements at the state level, various programs for monitoring and treatment of paroled sex offenders are also implemented. The &amp;quot;treatment&amp;quot; regimens often include untested &amp;quot;therapies&amp;quot; featuring inducement of self hatred and extreme sex negativity. Many such programs have proven ineffective following empirical investigation. Gender neutrality becomes an agenda in the law, and previous theories of CSA must now be applied with equal vigor to boys. Popular personalities such as [[Andrew Vachss]] signpost the turning point for the homophobic American Male psyche - time to pick a new bogeyman - the Sexual Predator, or &amp;quot;Pedophile&amp;quot;. The LGBT/Gay Movement [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|ousts pederasts after having made considerable gains]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1996&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Wikipedia:Amber alert|AMBER alerts]] &amp;amp; milk-carton campaigns begin, displaying the faces of missing children.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;1998&#039;&#039;&#039; - [[Rind et al]] controversy shakes academia and draws official congressional condemnation 2 years later. Much like the discovery of child abuse in the 60s heralded the later &#039;&#039;problematization&#039;&#039; panic, Rind is an early example of the &#039;&#039;normalization&#039;&#039; discourse that was to take on a life of its own two decades later.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;2004&#039;&#039;&#039; - Sadistic killer [[Wikipedia:Marc Dutroux|Marc Dutroux]] (arrested in 1996) is convicted. The attention given to his case has already unleashed a wave of &amp;quot;pedophile&amp;quot; panic throughout Europe. [[Wikipedia:To Catch a Predator|To Catch a Predator]] debuts on NBC, televising the entrapment (by vigilantes and law enforcement) of men who seek sexual relations with minors, and breaking new boundaries in entertainment. It would run until 2007, when [[Louis Conradt]] shot himself dead as a television crew descended upon his house.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;2006&#039;&#039;&#039; - Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act passed in U.S. Towards the end of the decade and early 10s, [[Minor Attracted People]] regroup online as a &amp;quot;movement&amp;quot; after the setbacks of the 90s, but this is a long, drawn-out process with many false starts.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;2007-2016&#039;&#039;&#039; - This was a period of relative calm, representing a slight relief in the news cycle as the problematization that commenced in the mid-70s belatedly burned out. Arrests and convictions for sexual offenses began a downward trend that continues in the 2020s. Media attention shifted to institutional forms of abuse, celebrity abuse scandals and generalized trends such as human trafficking, and later, right-wing conspiracy theories and the #MeToo movement. A small note concerns the emergence of the &amp;quot;Male Survivor&amp;quot; in institutional/community settings such as [[Wikipedia:United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal|English Association Football]]. In the 10s, two separate media trends emerge in defiance of moral panic: the [[Virtuous Pedophiles|&amp;quot;Virtuous Pedophile&amp;quot;]] and the [[Wikipedia:Free-range parenting|&amp;quot;free range parent&amp;quot;]], both being characterized as the product of laissez-faire social liberalism as opposed to critical self-awareness. The stage is set for the political polarization of this topic, helping to enable the subsequent &amp;quot;normalization&amp;quot; discourse. In 2011, the U.S. passes a law to require all ISPs to log any and all internet traffic and hold up to 1 year for police use (Protecting Children From Internet Pornographers Act of 2011).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;background:#ade6bb&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Normalization (MAP) Panic&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;2016-present&#039;&#039;&#039; - Pedophile panic re-emerges in the conspiracy-fuelled culture wars of the Trump era. [[Wikipedia:QAnon|Q-Anon]] and [[Wikipedia:Pizzagate conspiracy theory|Pizzagate]] make bizarre claims of coded pedophile language and elite pedophilia running all the way to the very top of society. [[Wikipedia:Jeffrey Epstein|Jeffrey Epstein]] is seemingly the poster-boy for this brand of elite debauchery. In 2018, a new wave of social media hysteria focusing on the &amp;quot;normalization of pedophilia&amp;quot; begins with the founding of [[Prostasia Foundation]]. Various controversies in academia follow, FOX News and the right wing media/influencers start identifying liberal trends in education and [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|trans-inclusivity]], accusing Disney among others of &amp;quot;[[grooming]]&amp;quot; children for [[degeneracy]]. In particular, we counted at least 14 [[MAPocalypse|such controversies]] in 2021 and 2022, including Noah Berlatsky ([[Prostasia Foundation|Prostasia]]), [[San Francisco Gay Men&#039;s Chorus|SFGMC]], [[Allyn Walker]], [[Karl Andersson]], Miranda Galbreath, [[Minor Attracted Person|Amber Parker/Franklin High School]], [[Jacob Breslow]], and Police Scotland/European Union&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/world-news/minor-attracted-person-scandal-inside-28858264 Scottish Daily Express scandal re. EU, Police Scotland using &amp;quot;Minor Attracted Person&amp;quot;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;2020s&#039;&#039;&#039; - Attention is given by liberals to the &amp;quot;disturbing&amp;quot; rise of pedophile hunting as entertainment on a commercial scale via social media influencers, with levels of violence way beyond that condoned by network pioneers such as Chris Hansen, associated with &#039;&#039;[[To Catch a Predator]]&#039;&#039;. The New York Times carries out an investigation&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20250327140547/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/26/us/pedophile-hunting-violence.html Online ‘Pedophile Hunters’ Are Growing More Violent — and Going Viral - NYT]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; into the activities of these many groups, after some were not correctly prosecuted. Influencers intersect tellingly with right-wing conspiracy theorists heavily invested in the normalisation/grooming narratives. Many of these vigilantes and conspiracy theorists [[Anti|go on to be convicted]] for sex crimes involving children. By 2025, Trump himself is dragged into the Epstein saga, floated for so long by his followers, and has to downplay its importance.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Going forward&#039;&#039;&#039; - The stages of moral panic summarized in the graphic on the right are an expansive analogy for how people come to terms with social &amp;quot;issues&amp;quot; in general. At the start, we are told &amp;quot;this is the issue&amp;quot; - the problem is &#039;&#039;identified&#039;&#039; and acknowledged. In the middle, we are told why we urgently have to act and who is the scapegoat (&#039;&#039;pathologization&#039;&#039;). Then within decades, the discourse evolves, and we learn that such people are not of one single type, and are &amp;quot;among us&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;problematization&#039;&#039;). At the end, the problem becomes so widely manifest, that we have to accept it as part of us. This is &#039;&#039;normalization&#039;&#039;. A later, fifth-phase might then be described as &amp;quot;ascendancy&amp;quot;, following on from the rotating panics. Here, the formerly ostracized groups are gentrified, and begin to win social recognition as well as further legal reforms.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Quotes on moral panic==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Don Pierce, a Sex offender GPS tracking expert on the possibility of surgically implanted GPS for sex offenders:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;One of the things we want to make sure that we don’t do is something that feels good or looks good or causes the public to relax.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;From dead local news article: &#039;&#039;&#039;king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_011409WAB-surgically-implanted-gps-TP.28c9413.html&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Reading list==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Moral Panic (book)|Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America]] [https://en.ua1lib.org/book/13428246/825aac (en.ua1lib.org)], [https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/books/jenkins.htm (on Ipce)], [https://ebin.pub/moral-panic-changing-concepts-of-the-child-molester-in-modern-america-9780300109634-9780300148534-0300148534.html (on Ebin)], [https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=AF4CFCC53779EC94D7F746B6266B7C02 (on Libgen)] - 1998 treatment by historian, [[Wikipedia:Philip Jenkins|Philip Jenkins]].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/138757/sadeorio_1.pdf Punishing Queer Sexuality in the Age of LGBT Rights] - Scott De Orio&#039;s 2017 dissertation.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/1908506 Freedman, E. B. (1987). “Uncontrolled Desires”: The Response to the Sexual Psychopath, 1920-1960] - Of particular relevance to the second panic.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.boychat.org/messages/1612361.htm Architects of Oppression] - 3 part series covering the time period from roughly the 2nd panic onwards.&lt;br /&gt;
* Haeberle, Erwin J. (1977) [https://www.ipce.info/library/web-article/historical-roots-sexual-oppression &amp;quot;Historical Roots of Sexual Oppression&amp;quot;]. First published in: The Sexually Oppressed, Harvey L. Gochros and Jean S. Gochros (eds.), Association Press, New York, 1977, pp. 3-27&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Patrick Califia]]. [https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm &amp;quot;Feminism, Pedophilia, and Children&#039;s Rights&amp;quot;]. in: [[Paidika]], 1991; &amp;amp; in: [http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/art_ess_c.htm Public sex: The Culture of Radical Sex], 1994&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Patrick Califia]]. [https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_aoc_frame.htm &amp;quot;The Age of Consent: The Great Kiddy-Porn Panic of &#039;77&amp;quot;]. In: [http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/art_ess_c.htm Public sex: The Culture of Radical Sex], 1994&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Sex Panic and the Punitive State]] by Roger N. Lancaster, 2011&lt;br /&gt;
* Arnold Hunt (1997) [https://web.archive.org/web/20130420132144/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/&#039;Moral%20Panic&#039;%20and%20Moral%20Language%20in%20the%20Media.pdf &#039;Moral Panic&#039; and Moral Language in the Media] &#039;&#039;The British Journal of Sociology&#039;&#039;, Vol. 48, No. 4, pp. 629-648 - This article surveys the evolution and changing meanings of the term &#039;moral panic&#039; from its inception in 1972 to the present.&lt;br /&gt;
*Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes, [https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/09540253.2012.666232 &amp;quot;Sexuality, youth and the perils of endangered innocence: how history can help us get past the panic&amp;quot;], in &#039;&#039;Gender and Education&#039;&#039;, 24(3) (2012), 269–284.&lt;br /&gt;
*Jay Daniel Thompson. (2019). [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14681811.2018.1475284 Predatory schools and student non-lives: A discourse analysis of the Safe Schools Coalition Australia controversy], &#039;&#039;Sex Education&#039;&#039;, Volume 19; Issue 1, pp. 41-53.&lt;br /&gt;
*Catherine Lee. (2023). [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/08920206211016453 Inclusive relationships, sex and health education: Why the moral panic?], &#039;&#039;Management in Education&#039;&#039;, Vol. 37(2) 107–112.&lt;br /&gt;
*Tig Slater. (2024). [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/00380261231167747 Mundanity, fascination and threat: Interrogating responses to publicly engaged research in toilet, trans and disability studies amid a ‘culture war’], &#039;&#039;The Sociological Review&#039;&#039;, Vol. 72(3), 511–528.&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Monstrous Crimes and the Failure of Forensic Psychiatry]] - a 2013 non-fiction book by [[John Douard]] and [[Pamela Schultz|Pamela D. Schultz]]&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Moral Panics over Contemporary Children and Youth]] (ed. Charles Krinsky, 2016)&lt;br /&gt;
* [https://annas-archive.org/md5/1d428c2369c13437c7ced5ccaba40a41 The Ashgate Research Companion to Moral Panics] (edited by Charles Krinsky, 2013)- a comprehensive assemblage of cutting-edge critical and theoretical perspectives on the concept of moral panic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:Child Advocacy]][[Category:Prostitution]][[Category:Sociological Theory]][[Category:Child Pornography]][[Category:Anti-Pedophile culture]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Religion]][[Category:TV &amp;amp; Media]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: Academic]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1990s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 2000s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 2010s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 2020s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Real Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: Corruption]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
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		<title>Peter Bremner</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Peter_Bremner&amp;diff=34664"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T13:35:57Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to PIE Chairman Steven Adrian Smith (left), for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. &#039;&#039;&#039;David Peter Bremner&#039;&#039;&#039; (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE&#039;s) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the &#039;&#039;Daily Express&#039;&#039; (1984) described Bremner as a &amp;quot;doctor of philosophy,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (&#039;&#039;Daily Express&#039;&#039;, 15th November 1984).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O&#039;Carroll as PIE&#039;s representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC&#039;s &#039;&#039;Newsnight&#039;&#039; TV programme. As recalled by O&#039;Carroll:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Tom O&#039;Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal &#039;&#039;Minor Problems&#039;&#039;. He served on the journal&#039;s editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need... &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE&#039;s prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Smith&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 &amp;quot;PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,&amp;quot;] in &#039;&#039;The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People&#039;&#039;, ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O&#039;Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Smith&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner&#039;s Case==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine &#039;&#039;Contact&#039;&#039;, dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an &amp;quot;indecent article&amp;quot; (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent (&amp;quot;Mr. Oxley&amp;quot;), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Fox&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a &amp;quot;tendency [...] to corrupt&amp;quot; in court. It was accepted in court that &amp;quot;he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Fox&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; &amp;quot;He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law,&amp;quot; but as Bremner ultimately &amp;quot;held the post office box number of P.I.E.,&amp;quot; he &amp;quot;was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Fox&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine &#039;&#039;Minor Problems&#039;&#039;, which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn&#039;s Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner&#039;s life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O&#039;Carroll]] relaying some details.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;htoc&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O&#039;Carroll&#039;s first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed &#039;&#039;A Tale of Two Activists&#039;&#039;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Later years and Death==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the great march in 2003 against the Iraq war.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After what O&#039;Carroll characterized as &amp;quot;outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry,&amp;quot; Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O&#039;Carroll&#039;s words, &amp;quot;complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; In later life, however, Peter &amp;quot;beat the demon drink&amp;quot; (O&#039;Carroll). This marked the start of &amp;quot;a personal renaissance,&amp;quot; with his final years being &amp;quot;remarkably happy and contented.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, &amp;quot;such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end.&amp;quot; &amp;quot;He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home,&amp;quot; wrote O&#039;Carroll, &amp;quot;and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; On his personal blog, O&#039;Carroll wrote,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;htoc&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79, after being ill for some years with cancer of the liver.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Peter_Bremner&amp;diff=34663</id>
		<title>Peter Bremner</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Peter_Bremner&amp;diff=34663"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T13:34:44Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to fellow PIE member, Steven Adrian Smith for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. &#039;&#039;&#039;David Peter Bremner&#039;&#039;&#039; (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE&#039;s) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the &#039;&#039;Daily Express&#039;&#039; (1984) described Bremner as a &amp;quot;doctor of philosophy,&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (&#039;&#039;Daily Express&#039;&#039;, 15th November 1984).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O&#039;Carroll as PIE&#039;s representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC&#039;s &#039;&#039;Newsnight&#039;&#039; TV programme. As recalled by O&#039;Carroll:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Tom O&#039;Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal &#039;&#039;Minor Problems&#039;&#039;. He served on the journal&#039;s editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need... &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE&#039;s prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Smith&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 &amp;quot;PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,&amp;quot;] in &#039;&#039;The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People&#039;&#039;, ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O&#039;Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Smith&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner&#039;s Case==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine &#039;&#039;Contact&#039;&#039;, dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an &amp;quot;indecent article&amp;quot; (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent (&amp;quot;Mr. Oxley&amp;quot;), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Fox&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a &amp;quot;tendency [...] to corrupt&amp;quot; in court. It was accepted in court that &amp;quot;he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Fox&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; &amp;quot;He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law,&amp;quot; but as Bremner ultimately &amp;quot;held the post office box number of P.I.E.,&amp;quot; he &amp;quot;was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Fox&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine &#039;&#039;Minor Problems&#039;&#039;, which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn&#039;s Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner&#039;s life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O&#039;Carroll]] relaying some details.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;htoc&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O&#039;Carroll&#039;s first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed &#039;&#039;A Tale of Two Activists&#039;&#039;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Later years and Death==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the great march in 2003 against the Iraq war.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After what O&#039;Carroll characterized as &amp;quot;outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry,&amp;quot; Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O&#039;Carroll&#039;s words, &amp;quot;complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; In later life, however, Peter &amp;quot;beat the demon drink&amp;quot; (O&#039;Carroll). This marked the start of &amp;quot;a personal renaissance,&amp;quot; with his final years being &amp;quot;remarkably happy and contented.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, &amp;quot;such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end.&amp;quot; &amp;quot;He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home,&amp;quot; wrote O&#039;Carroll, &amp;quot;and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;Eulogy&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; On his personal blog, O&#039;Carroll wrote,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;htoc&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79, after being ill for some years with cancer of the liver.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_CSA_(Children%27s_Sexual_Advances)&amp;diff=34662</id>
		<title>Testimony: CSA (Children&#039;s Sexual Advances)</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_CSA_(Children%27s_Sexual_Advances)&amp;diff=34662"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:42:46Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:A&amp;amp;T}}Here follows a few examples of the younger partner (child or older minor) making sexual overtures. These are a selected few accounts, and do not represent all such accounts in the project, of which many more (both from boys and girls) show initiative and/or seeking the contact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Bruce Rind gives a number of accounts of minor-adult sex initiated by the minor in a [http://www.ipce.info/library_2/rind/rind_gay_boys_app.htm 2001 study] (&amp;quot;Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys&#039; Sexual Experiences With Men&amp;quot;):&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Between a boy of 12 and a man of 22:&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;It lasted 9 months with his science teacher. &amp;quot;It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren&#039;t home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn&#039;t a teacher at my school no more.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Between a boy of 12 and a man of 25: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The man was a family friend; the sex was mutually initiated, oral, off and on for 10 years (a couple of times per month), and &amp;quot;physically great.&amp;quot; It confused the subject that the man was married, yet was willing to have sex with him. &amp;quot;Eventually I fell in love with him; knew I was gay but did not broadcast this; I was curious because of the age difference. Mutual oral sex happened after he fondled me; it was the first orgasm I ever had.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Between a boy of 13 and a man of 38: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;Family friend. I initiated on a camping trip; we were in same tent at state park; oral sex to orgasm for both of us; several times during the night; incredibly erotic, tremendous release, very pleasurable. Not real close; didn&#039;t enjoy kissing. Afterwards scary because I enjoyed it so much. Not wanting to be near him on the trip because afraid others would notice. Once per month for the next 4 years that I initiated; never talked about it; sex was all it was. Wished I was straight so the attractions would go away, because the sexual gratification was so strong.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;In his book [http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality], Floyd Martinson cites three cases from [[Wikipedia:Larry Constantine|Larry Constantine]], of children making sexual advances towards a parent:&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Alice was disturbed by her mother&#039;s agitation and breathing during intercourse. She otherwise seemed happy with being with her parents as they made love. Her mother explained the whole thing very carefully one day. Her daughter then said, &amp;quot;I want to make love with you, Mommy.&amp;quot; At first her mother didn&#039;t know what to do and then decided to go along as long as her daughter seemed okay. She put her hand on her daughter&#039;s genitals and suggested Alice put hers on top, showing her mother how it felt best. Her daughter started moving rhythmically and breathing heavily, exactly as she had seen her mother do. Her motion and breathing gradually built up to a climax and she relaxed. Whether she actually reached orgasm or mimicked it is uncertain. She was happy and thanked her mother. (Constantine).&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Barb, at five, appeared to be completely comfortable being present when her parents made love. Her parents were casual about sensual interactions with their children. One day Barb asked, &amp;quot;Dad, can I have a &#039;love-in&#039; with you?&amp;quot; &amp;quot;Well, maybe when you&#039;re older, if you still want to we can talk about it.&amp;quot; It was an honest reply, not a put-off, and satisfied her. She continued to have interest in erotic involvement with her father with no apparent anxieties on the part of either daughter or father. (Constantine).&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Dianna [age 2]: &amp;quot;Daddy, would you kiss my clitoris?&amp;quot; Casually, Daddy says, &amp;quot;Sure.&amp;quot; Bends over and gives her a light smack. Dianna: &amp;quot;No, do it long like you do to Mommy.&amp;quot; The father reports he thought briefly about it and decided there was no harm in it. Dianna enjoyed it and later asked for a repeat performance. (Constantine).&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Bruce Rind, &#039;&#039;Blinded by Politics and Morality&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://archive.org/details/censoringsexresearch/page/n3/mode/2up Censoring Sex Research]&#039;&#039;, edited by Hubbard and Verstraete 2013, pp. 291-292. Recalls the experience of [[Clarence_Tripp|Clarence A. Tripp]], Ph. D. (1919 - May 17, 2003), a psychologist, photographer, therapist, writer, gay activist, and researcher for Dr. [[Alfred_Kinsey|Alfred Kinsey]]&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;When he was 5 years old, growing up in Oklahoma, one day his mother called a repairman to go under the house, which was raised up on stilts, to fix a leak. Tripp followed the man, whom he later referred to as [[Mahatma_Gandhi|Gandhi]] (his “liberator”), and could see his penis through a crack in his pants. Within one minute, Tripp reported, he “seduced” the man, performing oral sex on him “before he knew it.” How did a 5-year-old know to do this? He answered that it emerged out of nowhere but just felt right; he had no prior sexual experience or knowledge. The man began pushing the boy away, but with “curiosity,” in Tripp’s perception, so the boy did not believe the rebuff and continued the sex act. he remembered that the man was “floored,” but reported that he himself “loved it all.” When he was a bit older, Tripp recalled sitting on the lap of several uncles, intentionally giving them erections without their seeming to know by just moving around. he said he would jump on their laps, asking them to teach him to read, for example, adding that “it was all subterfuge, a trick to get on their lap.” he said he was always “on the prowl” during his boyhood.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Loretta Haroian describes one case in &amp;quot;[http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/Haroian/body.htm Child Sexual Development]&amp;quot; (2000):&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Three-year old D was a highly sexed boy who had been involved in sex play with age mates and an older child. He asked his therapist if she wanted to put her mouth on his “dinky.” When she replied in the negative, he pleaded “you&#039;ll like it,” “I&#039;ll pay you money,” “I&#039;ll be your best friend.” When asked if he liked to “play dinky,” he frowned menacingly, clenched his fists and aggressively replied, “yes, I like it, and I&#039;m not going to stop!”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Psychology Professor [http://www.ipce.info/host/sandfort_87/chapter2.htm Theo Sandfort asks 12-year-old Wouter who usually initiates sex in his relationship with a 42-year-old man]:&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[Wouter] &#039;&#039;&#039;Mostly I do.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[TS] &#039;&#039;You start it?&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;I decide if we&#039;re going to have sex or not.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;You decide that?&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Yes. And every day I come here it happens. I don&#039;t keep Gerard waiting around.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Is that a kind of rule, that it happens every time?&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;No. I like it. When I feel like it we just start. Then we first take a bath and then go to bed. Sometimes we do that the other way round.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But if you have to say who starts it, on average, who would that be?&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Well, sometimes one of us, sometimes the other. Yes, and sometimes he wants it and I don&#039;t, so then we don&#039;t do it. Mostly I&#039;m the first one to begin.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Award winning poet [[Delphine Lecompte]] (2021)&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::On May 6th, 2021, the Dutch Newspaper &amp;quot;Propria Cures,&amp;quot; latin for &amp;quot;Mind Your Own Business,&amp;quot; published an issue in their newspaper on free speech, specifically in relation to [[pedophilia]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/PROPRIA_CURES_-_6_May_2021 Propria Cures English Translation (available for PDF viewing or download)], &#039;&#039;Brongersma.info&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Lecompte&#039;s contribution was number 8, titled &amp;quot;The gardener and the five-year-old child,&amp;quot; which appears to be an account of Lecompte&#039;s [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|own positively experienced sexual feelings and age-gap sex in childhood]]. Among other things, she wrote (retaining her original formatting):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;As a five-year-old child, I was courted by my grandparents&#039; sturdy weathered half-Bretan gardener. But actually I seduced him.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I stroked the gardener&#039;s stiff apron and asked him to show me around his world.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gardener chased me away grimly. He didn&#039;t like children.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I knew I couldn&#039;t seduce the gardener with words, but maybe the swing would do the trick.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If I rocked very high he could see my panties, but he never looked at me, the rocking child. Let alone the panties. His back was always proudly and stubbornly turned to the swing.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Nevertheless, every Friday I wore my tightest cutest panties in the hope that the gardener would ever glance at them. After six months, I gave up.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I needed to be bolder. I devised a plan: on Thursday night, I would sneak down to my grandparents&#039; basement to disguise a bottle of gin and a goblet of apricots in syrup, and I would then gobble up this rich, irresistible feast with the gardener the next day.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;At first I watched the gardener like a horny sneaky voyeur: I gaped unabashedly at the sagging pants and at the sweaty slit leading to the anus.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gardener turned around and caught me. But he was not annoyed, rather amused.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;He called me to him, patted my crown and told me I could tip out the wheelbarrow full of weeds in that corner over there.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But the wheelbarrow was too heavy and the gardener came up behind me and put his hands on my hands and pressed his blissfully hard midsection against my back, and I thought I was going to cum.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The next Friday was the day: without swing, without gin, and without apricots I went to my goal.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I said to the gardener, &amp;quot;Caress me in the bushes, I need it. I&#039;ve been waiting so long.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gardener seemed moved, and he obeyed, thank God.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;He tenderly laid me on a tarp between two conifers. He carefully removed my clothes and groped my small limbs with his dirty warm fingers. It was delicious! He built it up heavenly slowly and I almost didn&#039;t last, but finally he reached my vagina.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We experienced two years of fun, nay ecstasy. I spoiled him too, his penis in my mouth. Tricky it was not, on the contrary.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Even the penetration was much less painful than expected.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We were never caught, never booed, never stoned.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But one day his sister died and the gardener was able to get a better job: detective in Newport.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In my poems I regularly introduce the gardener as a character. I then invariably call him &amp;quot;the pedophile gardener,&amp;quot; but that&#039;s not right. We were a couple, a vulgar blind foolish happy in love innocent couple.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;It was beautiful and it was not perverse. Or if there was perversion involved it came from me.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For more detail not captured in this excerpt, please read the full story as printed in &#039;&#039;Propria Cures&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;] (1987).&#039;&#039;&#039; - Feminist writer describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender, in 1953 at age 13. &lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Brooke Hopkins. [[Media:(1993)_Brooke_Hopkins_-_A_Question_of_Child_Abuse.pdf|A Question of Child Abuse]], &#039;&#039;Raritan&#039;&#039;, Vol. 13 Issue 2, Fall 1993. (13 pages), see [https://web.archive.org/web/20130420133204/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/Brooke%20Hopkins%20-%20A%20Question%20of%20Child%20Abuse.pdf backup at Web Archive]:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::Literature professor Brooke Hopkins (1942-2013),&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/saltlaketribune/name/brooke-hopkins-obituary?id=24134330 Legacy.com: Brooke Hopkins Obit&#039;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; recalled his erotic feelings and behavior directed towards his mother at 6-years-old, which would have occurred in 1948. Fondling his mother across several weeks as she slept in his bed, Hopkins gestures towards [https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Research:_Secondary_Harm secondary/iatrogenic harm] where his experience becomes traumatic after &amp;quot;my father had pulled my mother, screaming, down the hall to their bedroom&amp;quot;, a violent reaction which Hopkins interprets as a father&#039;s attempt to regain control. Hopkins wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I would like to try to describe what it feels like for a six-year-old boy to lie next to his mother in a situation of such relative intimacy all night. My mother wore a long, ankle-length nightgown &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039;. It was tightly fitting, and you could see through it, especially if it was illuminated from behind as it often was in the light of the door, could see the dark V of her pubic hair, the hairs themselves, and the dark spots of her nipples. When my mother got into bed on those nights she would almost invariably lie with her back to me, despite all of my mostly self-interested efforts to coax her to do otherwise &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039;. At thirty-four, she was tall and quite slender, with smallish breasts and incredibly soft skin. Despite the difference in our sizes, we seemed to fit together pretty well in the traditional spoon position &#039;&#039;[...and]&#039;&#039; at the age of six &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; such closeness was &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; engulfing and fantastically exciting.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;My most urgent need was to try to find out what would make my mother feel better, make her unhappiness go away. I knew what made me feel better when I was unhappy: expressions of concern, gentle stroking, expressions of love. On occasions when I needed it, my father would soothe me to sleep by rubbing my back and my buttocks (which was also erotically very stimulating). I tried the same thing. I would rub my mother&#039;s back until she fell asleep, or until I fell asleep. I would pass my hand down over her buttocks, trying to use the same gentle stroking motion my father used with me, occasionally passing it between her buttocks to see what that felt like, to see how she would respond. Partly because her back was turned, I could never tell when she was asleep or just pretending to be asleep. I could never really tell what was going on in her mind.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...]&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I do not think that she ever intended to arouse me sexually. In fact, I think she would have been shocked to discover how aroused I was. Her culture was strictly Victorian, pre-Freudian, &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; and deeply conservative both socially and politically. But the fact is that it didn&#039;t take long under the circumstances of our nights together for me to become almost unbearably excited by being so intimately in bed with her, by exploring her body with my hands (or as much of it as I could with her back to me), feeling her warmth and her smell. Sometimes my penis would be so stiff from rubbing against her that I was afraid it would break off, literally like a stick.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One moment in all this stands out with special clarity for me. I had become increasingly shameless in my efforts to explore with my hands and fingers what were for me the secret parts of my mother&#039;s body. Her vagina was particularly mysterious to me, and I desperately wanted to touch it, to see what it felt like, to see if she would permit me to touch that part of her. She seemed to like it when I passed my fingers between her buttocks, or at least she never protested, but would lie there quite still letting me do what I wanted. One night, thinking that I might just be able to explore further, I waited until I believed she had gone to sleep, waited what seemed like a incredibly long time in a heightened state of anticipation. I knew that what I was about to do was taboo - it was one reason my mother always had her back to me - but I had to do it, had to touch her there to see what it was like. After an unbearable wait, I summoned up all of my courage and began cautiously to move my hand toward the place about which I had such curiosity. As I approached it, pausing for long periods to see if there was any change in her breathing, she gave a sudden shake and said sleepily, &amp;quot;No, I&#039;m sorry. You can&#039;t touch me there. That place is saved for your father.&amp;quot; I don&#039;t recall exactly what I replied to this expression of marital propriety. Something like: &amp;quot;Is it still okay to touch everywhere else?&amp;quot; I was startled, chastened. But there was no alternative except to accept the logic &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; despite the fact that she came down the hall to sleep with me every night and seemed to like all the other things I did. Her words, however, had the effect of reminding me that some things were still out of bounds, that &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; my father was still the one in control.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
::We believe this account is valuable to preserve for its problematization of dominant CSA accounts, despite its contradictory statements and ethnocentric (i.e. western) bias (see our [[Research:_Nonwestern_Intergenerational_Relationships|non-western accounts]]). In one contradiction, Hopkins begins by writing that &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;Whether this story turns out to be about &amp;quot;child sexual abuse&amp;quot; is up to the reader to decide&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;, that &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;such categories are ultimately irrelevant compared to the experience itself&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;, but then ends by declaring his experience to be a form of passive abuse. Hopkins argues that his mother &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;should have known better than to have allowed the situation to develop as it did&amp;quot;&#039;&#039; - i.e. have not slept in his bed. He does not consider the possibility of other sources of mother-son eroticism, such as everyday closeness or washing together. He also fails to explain &#039;&#039;why&#039;&#039; his mother would have avoided sleeping next to him when, in his words, &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;I do not think she ever intended to arouse me sexually.&amp;quot; &amp;quot;In fact,&amp;quot;&#039;&#039; he wrote, &#039;&#039;&amp;quot;I think she would have been shocked to discover how aroused I was.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/449541.htm Goethe] on GirlChat:&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember there was a 7 yo girl who was the daughter of my parent&#039;s friends. They&#039;d come around to visit and she&#039;d sleep in the spare bedroom later on while her parents were still up with mine. One warm night she came into my room and asked me to &amp;quot;scratch under there&amp;quot;. Her pretext was that it was &amp;quot;itchy&amp;quot; rather than her feeling horny. I was 12 but didn&#039;t want to go along with it as I was terrified I might have been found out and then be labeled a &amp;quot;child molester&amp;quot; and suffer all kinds of punitive actions. She was so unbelievably FORCEFUL and wouldn&#039;t take no for an answer, so I lead her back to her room and told her to just go to sleep. I&#039;d go back to my own bed and then she&#039;d come in AGAIN. This went on about 4 or 5 times throughout the night. Her pretext that is was &amp;quot;itchy&amp;quot; was obviously BS as she could have easily done it herself. One time she came into my room with her nighty pulled right up and playing with herself right in front of my face. (I was lying down and she was standing right there by my bed side). I told her time again that I &amp;quot;can&#039;t&amp;quot; do that, then she&#039;d ask &amp;quot;BUT WHY!!??&amp;quot; She was practically &#039;sexually harassing&#039; me by this stage with all her persistence. LOL. In the end I was practically arguing with her over it and her voice had become raised with frustration by this time and I could really see it in her face too!. Her parents ended up hearing all the fuss and came up the passage way to see what was going on. They realised that she was hassling me and demanded she get to bed, and then the mother apologized to me for her being a &amp;quot;bother&amp;quot;. The girl didn&#039;t say a word to them what it was all over, and naturally neither did I. She finally obeyed them and then went back into her own bed without bothering me again. lol.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.steadyhealth.com/Self_stimulating_infant_seems_to_reach_orgasm__t137843.html Self-stimulating infants] (for validation in literature, see [[Research:_Youth_sexuality#Fetal.2Finfant_sexual_capacity|our research section]]):&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;At around 12 mos., my granddaughter began stimulating herself by laying on her stomach &amp;amp; stimulating herself by moving her hips in a rhytmic motion. She began only doing it when she is tired &amp;amp; would put herself to sleep this way. Now she does it a lot more often......in her high chair, carseat, etc. Sometimes when she does it now, she nearly screams &amp;amp; seems to get frustrated at times. She will sometimes have a glassy look in her eyes as if she&#039;s in deep concentration or a trance-like state. If you try to distract her or pick her up before she&#039;s &#039;ready&#039;, she will cry &amp;amp; fight us. We were worried about her being sexually abused, but she&#039;s not left alone with strangers.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;When my 9 year old son was only 2 weeks old, I was laying with him in my bed and had him laying on top of my stomach and chest. All of a sudden, he started thrusting his pelvis back and forth like a man having sex would! I was shocked! He did this for about 10 seconds, and then I turned him over on his back and checked his diaper. His penis was erect! I really freaked out and to this day can&#039;t figure out how or why a 2 week old baby would do something like that. I was his only caretaker from the time we left the hospital, and I have NEVER touched any of my children inappropriately. I never saw it happen again when he was a baby, but to this day, he has a tendency to stimulate himself, I think he does it without even realizing it most of the time.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/brong_1.pdf Loving Boys, Volume One] by [[Edward Brongersma]]:&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;A 35-year-old mother told Gauthier, &#039;When he was only 18 months old my six-year-old son was having erections as soon as he touched me. He would mount me and make the motions of intercourse: I thought this was nice and disarming.&#039;&amp;quot;&#039;&#039; (p. 62)&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25852001/page/2/ Investigator Bob Mosier, describing the Cambodian sex trade]&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;You have an 8-year-old or 9-year-old little girl who&#039;s looking at you smiling, ok, realizing that you&#039;re going to, uh, in just a few moments possibly, probably engage in a sexual act that they&#039;re gonna get money for, and they&#039;re smiling about it. I mean I see a smile like that on my kids&#039; face when they&#039;re find out that they&#039;re gonna go to Disney World or something like that.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==BoyLover.net series==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Boylover.net]] was one of the world&#039;s largest online [[boylove]]r communities, and was the largest online message board for boylovers. It was started in 2002, and shut down when the server was seized as part of Operation Rescue in 2009. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Many surveys documented the experiences of BLs with flirting boys. Clearly, these are influenced by the subjective perceptions of BLs, and should be read holistically with this in mind:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;yeh so meny times ive been working in a school since september and a have serously lost count at how many times it has happened. and most of the time in plan sight&#039;&#039; [many boylovers echoed this sentiment]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I&#039;m a junior high school teacher, and I&#039;ve been teaching for 10 years now. I work with kids with academic and behavior problems, mostly boys between 12 and 14. This situation happens at least with 2 or 3 boys every year ... For example, last year, one of my boys came to see me after school, and told me that I was giving him a hard-on every time he looks at me. This year, I have a student who told me that he would like me to be his first sex partner!&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But some of them are real flirts, real extroverts, who would strip completely and run around naked, then flash their willy or bend over and give me a brown-eye if I said anything ... Every now and again however one of them will come back to me without his friends, and take my hand, and just want to ask me &amp;quot;growing-up&amp;quot; questions or talk to me or cuddle mostly. Not saying any more . . .&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Last summer at the pool a kid I didn&#039;t even know swam over and took my hand and put it in his private area”&#039;&#039; [crotch grabbing, flashing (inc. erection bearing) and voyeurism are well documented behaviours of curious boys in these threads]&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;in my lifetime, i have been flirted with, mooned at, flashed at, and have been innapropriatly touched by various youngsters. i suppose we have to realise its strange old world out there&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One of my YF&#039;s (13 at the time) placed his hands on his hips right in front of me,lowering his track pants so I could see his briefs... it was done very provocatively... Another (10 at the time) would take my hand whenever I sat next to him,then place it on his...sensitive place&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I use to go swimming after my workout in the gym 3 times a week and some boys would come on to me shy and quiet and others plain and rampant. My love is boys under 11 and only 1 boy in this age range came on to me. When i was showering and dressing he watched me closely while staying naked himself, covered but not. (if you see what i mean) The next week i saw him in the pool and he followed me out into the changing room. same again. In time we became friends we talked and laughed together&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;YA! he was talking to me and stuff and then he started rubbing up against me i was trying not to get all &amp;quot;excited&amp;quot; lol but yes i was thrilled!&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One boy who slept with me on the living room floor by the stove on the colest morning found my hand on his stomach, so he moved his groin up to where my hand was and started humping. A boy took my hand and placed it on his groin, too, but he was always displaying his boner. He couldn&#039;t do that with people in the next room, so I guess he did the closest thing possible. I&#039;ve been kissed by boys on the lips, and a few slipped me a tongue, all ages. Some in the shower would turn around and get a feel to see if I was getting hard, but it went no further. Kind of an eye-opener as far as what boys will do to initiate things. Some people swear that it never happens that way&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;4 of my lfs would kiss me on the lips, and the mothers had no probs with it. But sometimes, they would push the intensity, and each of these put their tongues in to test the limit. The taking your hand to their crotch seems to happen alot, cuz it&#039;s happened to me. Flashing, particularly a boner, or getting one before, during, or after a bath happened alot even when we already had a clear decision made on no inappropriate touching. Humping a leg or a hand has ocurred, and putting something in their lap and stroking it for teasing has, too&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Oh I&#039;ve had couple of y/f&#039;s trying to place my hand on their &amp;quot;sensitive place&amp;quot;, but the biggest flirt, if you would call it that, for me would have to be the time one of my y/f&#039;s spoke to me about being called &amp;quot;gay&amp;quot; at school and I told him what it ment after finding out it was something to do with me, he went quiet for a moment then asked if I would be his b/f&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I have had boys from age 10 to 14 flirt or comeon to me while teaching them swimming. It probably happens with at least 3 boys out of every group I work with. I don&#039;t know if they sense about me liking boys or what but they can be pretty forward about it. I have had kids who i am teaching to swim push my hand down to their crotch areas while I am holding them in the pool. I have had kids linger after the session ended and come into to the changing room when Im changing and let me see their little bones as they change. Just the other day I had a 11 yr. who I was holding in the water so he could practice his breast stroke put his hand down under the water and rest it on my crotch. At first this all kind of surprised me but it seems th emore classes I work with the more I see it&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;i have on many occsions. a few have sat on me and grab my croach one pushed me back that i was wresltling and he got on top of me and started feeling my croach for a while. i didnt want it 2 stop&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Yeah, I had a friend that would tell me to touch his...whenever he had a boner. Then he would joke around and say it was a crayon, or something in his pocket. Very hot&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Oh Yes! My SYF flirts with me alot. I could write a whole chapter on all the times he done something to get my attention. He&#039;s so open about it that even his old sister (15 yo) has teased me about &amp;quot;It must be nice to have a 10 yo boy that has a crush on you.&amp;quot; And when no one else is around he flirts on an entirely other level. Just recently I was sitting on the couch with him while his a playing zelda on a gameboy. I was leaning on his knee (he was laying longways on the couch with his knees up). I was feeling kinda sleepy and everyone else had went to bed. he shifted his knee and grabed my head with his legs and pulled my face into his groin. I didn&#039;t feel safe keeping my head there too long since anyone in the house could walk in on us, but it was long enough for me to feel his pulse, if you know what I mean. But that made his intentions to me quite clear. Another time after that he walked up to the side of me while I was on their computer and put his mouth completely around my ear, then asked me if I wanted to do the same thing to him. I&#039;m usally accepting of any advances he makes towards me&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I was watching a 7 yr old boy once, he wanted to wrestle. We were wearing jeans, after a while he wanted to wrestle in just our underwear. So we did that as well and there was more contact than normal. We were both pretty excited after a while and then I had to explain to him why that happens. It was fun to say the least!&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I have had many boys flirt with me, but I have to say the most memorable time was when I was 17 and went to a girlfriend&#039;s house to play cards with her, her sister, and mother. I knew she had a brother, but I had never seen him. We were playing cards and he walked into the dining room asking for help with his math homework. He was 12 with dark brown hair and brown eyes and the most perfect build. No one else wanted to help him, so I volunteered and followed him up to his room. His book and papers were on a TV tray next to the bed, so I sat down on the bed and picked up his book. He sat down beside me and literally rammed his entire body against mine. I gave him a funny look and he just smiled even more. It quickly became apparant that he did not need help and one time when I looked into his eyes, only a couple of inches from mine, he clamped a lip-lock on me and tried to slide his tongue in my mouth. I was rescued by his sister coming upstairs to use the bathroom and went back downstairs with her. Another time I stopped by the house and knocked at the side door and he shouted up from the basement. The doors were open next to the side door and I looked down the stairs to see him standing there completely naked and soaked. I ascertained that he was the only one home and left, but his big smile told me he was enjoying the situation immensely!!!” “Couple weeks ago i went to the football and a boy i was with suggestivly sucked on a bottle then said my bf jamie likes me to do it to him, want me to do it to you... I was with family and friends at the time, he then started laughing as i blushed and went completely silent,because he&#039;s a real cute 11 year old&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Yes, I love boys that flirt with me. My last girlfriends son was a flirt big time. Even just reached out one day and just grabbed my private parts....used to love to play wrestle with him”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;i once woke up middle of the night at my mates to find his 11yr old cute as bro spoonng naked with me! i was a little shoced, but i&#039;l leave it there!&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;It&#039;s happened to me numerous times, starting way back in 7th grade and continuing to the present - and I&#039;m in my 50&#039;s. One time, I took this kid fishing. He said, &amp;quot;I&#039;m horny.&amp;quot; I said, &amp;quot;Prove it.&amp;quot; He did. Oh, boy! We didn&#039;t catch many fish&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;my little cousin on more than one occasion would sit next to me in an empty room, while watching tv and grab my hand and shove it down his pants. i didnt really know what to do, so whenever he comes over i try to stay in a room full of people&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Thread: Online survey on boys who have &amp;quot;floored&amp;quot; BoyLover.net members===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some respondents noted general curiosity; initiating kisses and asking intimate questions.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Once I asked a super cute, friendly, if troublesome 9-year-old boy why did he think I liked him so much. He just looked me in the eye, smiled, and said, &amp;quot;Because I&#039;m a boy.&amp;quot; Golly, he had me pegged!&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I used to live nextdoor to a family of russians..They had 7 kids, 5 were boys.. one day we were all sitting on the stairs. I was trying my hardest to teach them english.. one of the boys just came up and started kissing the back of my neck. I turned my head around and he gave me &amp;quot;the look&amp;quot; and kissed me on the lips. The brothers just started giggling and he had the biggest smile on his face... I was about 16 and boy was 7.. One of my greatest boy moments..&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I was once asked by a 9 year old lad &amp;quot;What&#039;s your AOA?&amp;quot;“ (age of attraction!)&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;When I was in college, helping out at a recreation center, I was sitting on the steps talking with a group of boys when one hopped up on my lap and hugged me. He had a boner was pressing it against me. He looked me in the eyes, hugged me again and whispered in my ear &amp;quot;...I love you...&amp;quot; ... A few minutes later he asked me &amp;quot;What time is it?&amp;quot; I told him and with a a wonderful smile, he asked, &amp;quot;Will you be here tomorrow?&amp;quot; I said, &amp;quot;Yes.&amp;quot; He said, &amp;quot;See you tomorrow!&amp;quot; and whispered, &amp;quot;I really do love you.&amp;quot; and ran off&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Notes==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Non-expressed_childhood_sexuality&amp;diff=34661</id>
		<title>Testimony: Non-expressed childhood sexuality</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Non-expressed_childhood_sexuality&amp;diff=34661"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:38:52Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
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*&#039;&#039;&#039;[https://www.killscreen.com/hide-kojimas-parents-used-make-him-watch-sex-scenes-european-movies-when-he-was-boy/ Hideo Kojima’s parents used to make him watch sex scenes in European movies when he was a boy] (2012)&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;What’s to become of sensitive children who watch naked people having sex on TV? In Hideo Kojima’s case, fame, fortune, and a life-long obsession with moviemaking. In an interview in The Guardian the Metal Gear Solid creator recalls his parents nightly tradition of gathering around the family television to watch imported movies. “I wasn’t allowed to go to bed till the film had finished: the opposite of how it is for most children. My parents were huge fans of westerns, European cinema and horror in particular. They wouldn’t just show me kids’ films. I’d even see the sex scenes.”&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20090211153116/http://inquisition21.com/index.php?module=announce&amp;amp;ANN_user_op=view&amp;amp;ANN_id=327 Two loves that dare not speak their names] by Brian Dyer in Inquisition 21, March 17, 2008.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
**&amp;quot;College Callgirl&amp;quot; on her over-protective upbringing and sexual fascination with being &amp;quot;molested&amp;quot;: “Knowing where I ended up, people often want to know if I was molested as a child. I wasn&#039;t, but not for lack of trying [...] [I] quivered with anticipation when alone with an adult, breathlessly wishing and completely terrified that they would cross the line. I fantasized about someone taking advantage of me because it was the only kind of sex I could imagine being able to engage in without feeling guilty [...] My entire childhood felt like watching a pervert jerk off through the library window – me, cocooned in a place of safety and learning, looking out at the dirty, visceral realities of life, intrigued but unable to connect.”&lt;br /&gt;
**Foo in comments: “Even though I was raised in a secular way and abstinence propaganda is not an issue where I live, I had the same fantasies as you did growing up. Older people using me was a constant turn on [...] As a 14 year old [boy], I tried to prostitute myself to older men to get some ‘abusive’ action, even though I&#039;m not gay. While ease of finding customers was one reason, the fact that it was the wrong gender for me made it even more titillating. The plan fell through for various reasons, chiefly because I was scared of anybody I knew finding out. Another problem was that I could not find any good facts about whether a condom should be used also for fellatio. Now, more than ten years later, I regret that I never fulfilled my plans.”&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20100110013043/http://www.martijn.org/info/OK87_EN_1.html Marthijn Uittenbogaard] in &amp;quot;Out of the Closet #2&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;OK magazine&#039;&#039;, June 18 2003.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:He was attracted to men as a child. &amp;quot;There were no sex games between the two of us, but I did (of course) fantasize about sex. In my fantasies there were boys of my own age (not my school friend though), and a girl that looks boyish (to me now, in an old school photo). I also fantasized about sex with grown-up men. What sex meant, I didn&#039;t precisely know, but growing up, the picture became more and more coloured. I hoped for a contact with a nice man, but his looks were not of much importance. What I wanted was to give him sexual pleasure. Sex is an interaction; you can also get pleasure when you give pleasure to your partner. It was a pity that I never met a &#039;sexual predator&#039;.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20101210224344/http://www.scarletletters.com/current/080102_nf_s.shtml Sharona] in &amp;quot;My Virgin Mind&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Scarlet Letters&#039;&#039;.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:The fantasies of an 11 year old girl. &amp;quot;I came into extreme, insistent sexual awareness at eleven [...] Teenage girls, especially young teens, in this society, are told that their sexual desire simply doesn&#039;t exist. [...] I remember my fury, starting at twelve and continuing until the end of high school, every time this piece of drivel was trotted out. I wasn&#039;t even thinking about having sex with anyone I knew, but I did want sex. I wanted a lot of sex, and I wanted it right then.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20080511143520/http://www.chrislowe.co.uk/interviews_neil_elton.html Elton John] (musician) in an interview by Neil Tennant in January 1998.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;At school everyone boasted about sex. Meanwhile I was dying to be molested by someone. When I went to therapy, my therapist said, &amp;quot;I have to ask you if you were molested.&amp;quot; And I said, &amp;quot;No, actually.&amp;quot; But I was dying to be molested by someone - just to teach me, just to find out, you know?&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;An 11-year-old French boy, quoted in: Brongersma, Edward (1979). &amp;quot;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/pan/htmfiles/pan3p26.htm Boy-Caught]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;PAN&#039;&#039;, Vol. 1 No. 3, p. 26.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:The diaries of a young boy who was in love with a man are quoted from Leonid Kameneff&#039;s book &#039;&#039;Ecoliers sans tablier&#039;&#039;. It is not clear whether the love was sexually expressed. &amp;quot;In the dormitory last night - I imagined you are there. It is like this - I close my eyes and I embrace you. I caress your body all over. I love you. You do the same things to me. ... And then I fall asleep, so happy! [...] I love him. I want to prove to him all the love I feel for him. The best way I can do that is with my body. I want to make both of us weep for joy. [...] You taught me the meaning of love. I might never have known it without you. [...] You introduced me to paradise. Every Saturday I go to paradise. With you I am happy; with you I live. [...] I have never before felt so free.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Dana M. Northcraft (2004) in &amp;quot;[https://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/genderlaw/12/northcraft.pdf A Nation Scared: Children, Sex, and the Denial of Humanity]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;American University Journal of Gender, Social. Policy &amp;amp; the Law&#039;&#039;, 12(3), pp. 483-518&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I was five when I had my first orgasm. I recall having conversations with friends when I was no older than ten about that infamous &amp;quot;first time&amp;quot; we were eagerly anticipating.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Anarchist Emma Goldman in her autobiography, &#039;&#039;Living My Life&#039;&#039;, [http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/living/living1_2.html chapter 2]&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;The first erotic sensations I remember had come to me when I was about six. [...] Among the stable help there was a young peasant, Petrushka, who served as shepherd, looking after our cows and sheep. Often he would take me with him to the meadows, and I would listen to the sweet tones of his flute. In the evening he would carry me back home on his shoulders, I sitting astride. He would play horse --- run as fast as his legs could carry him, then suddenly throw me up in the air, catch me in his arms, and press me to him. It used to give me a peculiar sensation, fill me with exultation, followed by blissful release.&lt;br /&gt;
*:I became inseparable from Petrushka. I grew so fond of him that I began stealing cake and fruit from Mother&#039;s pantry for him. To be with Petrushka out in the fields, to listen to his music, to ride on his shoulders, became the obsession of my waking and sleeping hours. One day Father had an altercation with Petrushka, and the boy was sent away. The loss of him was one of the greatest tragedies of in child-life. For weeks afterwards I kept on dreaming of Petrushka, the meadows, the music, and reliving the joy and ecstasy of our play. One morning I felt myself torn out of sleep. Mother was bending over me, tightly holding my right hand. In an angry voice she cried: &amp;quot;If ever I find your hand again like that, I&#039;ll whip you, you naughty child!&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Claudia Card in &amp;quot;What&#039;s Wrong with Adult-Child Sex?&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Journal of Social Philosophy&#039;&#039;, 33(2), p. 173&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Since I was much younger than ten, I was “in love with” particular others (adults, peers) whom I wished passionately to see and caress naked, and I fantasized their wanting to do the same with me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;] (1987).&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). &#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]&#039;&#039;.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;The first time I can recall having a sexually pleasing sensation was when I was around three or four. I remember feeling very proud of what I had learned (how to masturbate) and the strange sensation it aroused. I can remember there was physical pleasure to be derived from fondling my genitals. Such fondling had no heterosexual overtones; the mere physical satisfaction was enough to develop this practice into a habit.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;At about the age seven, or so, I first began to masturbate. I am not sure how I came upon this discovery. I believe it may have been when, feeling a need to urinate, I began fingering the genital area and found it to produce a very pleasurable sensation.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;Kindergarten was curiously arousing in that I (a boy) enjoyed sleeping next to girls on their mats during rest periods. In the second grade I seemed to have been popular among the girls. During recess, I would tell all the girls that wanted to kiss me to line up, and would then proceed to kiss each one in turn, giving those two or three that I preferred most a kiss on the lips.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I (a boy) first masturbated at the age of seven, as far as I can remember. I had no idea of what I was doing or what it meant, but the feeling was terrific. In view of the fact that masturbation was so enjoyable, it served to make time pass rapidly. Therefore, before the crushing boredom of a second grade classroom would grip me, I would swing my legs under my desk in a fashion which would end in an orgasm.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*[Boy, age 6]: &amp;quot;The experience of sexual arousal as a child is one of my sexual experiences. Whenever my girl friends and I would look at books while playing, I would always choose the book Little Black Sambo. The picture I am referring to is that of the tiger chasing Sambo around the tree as he is melting into butter. The tiger has previously taken all of Sambo&#039;s clothes. The sight of the nude little boy&#039;s rear end is what excited me.... I would stare at the picture for quite some time getting a funny feeling the whole time.... My body would tingle all over and my stomach would seem to have butterflies inside of it. I loved this new feeling and wanted to experience it over and over again.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;In the garage three, four, and five year olds were starting to explore each other&#039;s genitalia, but I (a girl) felt so embarrassed that I sought an escape in being the door guard in case anyone came in. Guilt surrounded the whole escapade both during and after. But somehow I never ventured far enough away so that I could not observe the &amp;quot;action.&amp;quot; Afterwards I tried to face my mother but I felt so terrible that I started crying and told her about our experience, whereupon she consoled me and assured me that I did right in not participating and saying how bad my cousin and friend were. My first ordeal was over for me, but the other two received lectures from their parents after being informed by my mother. Still, a curiosity lingered and during the next seven years or so I remember masturbating and fantasizing, but only quietly (secretly) and in bed.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I do remember having erections when I was seven or eight years old. All I really noticed about them was that they occurred when I thought about a young girl I felt romantically inclined toward. Also, they made it very difficult to roll over in bed. I never knew the purpose of the arousal, but I was aroused.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;Visual stimulation, from magazine pictures or television, began to occur frequently at age six. This period, lasting from age six to twelve, was one of predominant homosexual stimulation. A marked period of homosexual responses, to both visual and mental imagery, is a major part of my early childhood. Beyond the age of twelve, when I entered the seventh grade, homosexual response declined while heterosexual stimulation increased.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I was about four years old at the time, and had recently discovered masturbation. I was found one day by my mother as she looked in at me during my usual afternoon nap. I was lying naked on the bed in the process of stimulation. I was not physically punished but did receive a few harsh words that inspired some degree of guilt in me. I have continued masturbation. Masturbation was a substantial part of my early life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;Coming home from play one day I (about nine years old) happened upon my sister (about eight) in the basement of our home on the sofa, manipulating herself through her clothes. She showed me how to add pressure to the sides of my labia to gain a &#039;funny feeling.&#039; At first I felt no satisfaction in it, but after a month of practice and experimenting, I obtained my first orgasm.... I am very grateful to my sister for introducing masturbation to me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Noah Michelson (2013) in &amp;quot;[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noah-michelson/pages-from-the-penis-book_b_4098678.html Pages From the Penis Book: My (Possibly Shocking) Sexual Life as a Gay Child]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Boys, An Anthology&#039;&#039;, Thought Catalog.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;What else could explain why, from the day I was born, all I&#039;ve ever been able to think about is having sex with men? [...] My mother claims that once, at a large family function, probably a birthday party or a breakfast celebrating some vaguely Christian holiday, she saw me happily masturbating. I was only 3 years old [...]&lt;br /&gt;
*:I have always been boy-crazy. Always. I would spend hours fantasizing about the father shaving in my Pat the Bunny book, wishing I could rub my hand over more than just his sandpaper stubble. And every time Mr. Rogers came on television, I would pray that this time he would change out of more than just his shoes and cardigan and finally reveal himself to me fully.&lt;br /&gt;
*:When I was 4 or 5, I fell in love with our garbage man. All I really remember about him now is that he had a porn star mustache and never wore sleeves during our hot Midwestern summers. One day, determined to finally take matters into my own hands, I snuck outside when I heard his truck coming down the street and, wearing nothing but my underwear, performed a burlesque-esque dance for him in our front yard. [...]&lt;br /&gt;
*:I&#039;m not sure if I ever fully wanted to be a girl. Aside from being interested in more typically feminine activities, I realize now that part of the reason that I identified with women was that, as far as I knew as a little boy in small-town Wisconsin, men did not have sex with men. There were no gay men there (and if there were, they were forced to take their pick between being closeted and miserable or just plain miserable). So if I wanted to be with a man -- and boy, did I ever -- I needed to be a woman. [...] My secret was out: I loved men. I lusted after them. Men in garbage trucks. Men in grocery stores. Men in puffy-sleeve pirate shirts. And I wanted them to do wonderful and terrible things to me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* &#039;&#039;&#039;French novelist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Flaubert Gustave Flaubert] (age 14) circa 1835, quoted in Germaine Greer, &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/books/beautiful.pdf The Beautiful Boy]&#039;&#039; (London: Thames and Hudson, 2003), p. 74.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;By his own account Gustave Flaubert was six months shy of his fifteenth birthday when he went on holiday with his family to Trouville and fell in love. In a memoir written when he was sixteen, he recalled the way he stalked a woman he saw on the beach:&lt;br /&gt;
*:I gazed at her from afar underneath the water, I envied the soft, peaceful waves lapping against her sides and covering with foam that heaving breast, I could see the outline of her limbs beneath the wet clothes enwrapping her, I could see her heart beating, her breast swelling, I mechanically contemplated her foot placing itself on the sand, and my gaze remained fixed to the trace of her steps and I could almost have wept at the sight of the waves washing them slowly away.&lt;br /&gt;
*:And then when she came back and passed by me, and I heard the water dripping from her clothes and the swish of her walk, my heart beat violently, I lowered my eyes, blood rushed to my head — I was suffocating — I could feel that woman&#039;s half-naked body passing by me with the odour of the waves. Even deaf and blind, I could have guessed at her presence, for there was within me something intimate and tender which was submerged in ecstasy and graceful imaginings, whenever she passed by like that.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Expressed_childhood_sexuality&amp;diff=34660</id>
		<title>Testimony: Expressed childhood sexuality</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Expressed_childhood_sexuality&amp;diff=34660"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:37:28Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:A&amp;amp;T}}&lt;br /&gt;
There are numerous recorded examples of children and minors engaging in sexual behaviors among themselves. This accounts for the vast bulk of sexual interactions involving youth. Teenage boys are the [[Research: Who offends and how often?|most at-risk group]] for prosecution of all sexual contact involving minors, even more so than adult men.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://anu.nfshost.com/?p=92 Steve Diamond on ATC blog (defunct)]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I have naturally craved sex...sexual touch, through all stages of my conscious life. I do not remember any phase during my childhood, when I was without sexual attraction and arousal. It was very natural, and spontaneous. I never disliked it, though I learned to hide it from others. [...] But I have, honestly, known several children (when I was a boy), who were having sex...semi-regular, and prior to puberty. Nobody complained...Everybody liked it...Everybody made the choice to be there and do that.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Nine-year-old girl, quoted in: Martin, Lorna and Card, Nell. &amp;quot;[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1669967,00.html The secret love life of Laura-Anne, aged 9¾]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, December 18 2005.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Laura-Anne Hanrahan [nine years old] is sitting on her doorstep, playing with a pumpkin as she describes how she felt when her boyfriend kissed her. &#039;Tingly,&#039; she says, dreamily. &#039;He used to come over and cuddle me and put his hands up my top. It used to feel cosy. I feel desperate to go up to him and say &amp;quot;Ben, why don&#039;t we kiss any more&amp;quot;. It hurts so much that we don&#039;t kiss that I want to rip my heart out and throw it away.&#039;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys&#039; boarding schools.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Angelina-Jolie-Was-A-Kindergarten-Sex-Kitten-3855.html Angelina Jolie] (actress), quoted in: &amp;quot;Angelina Jolie Was A Kindergarten Sex Kitten&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;World Entertainment News Network&#039;&#039;, April 18 2007.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I was a member of a group called the Kissy Girls. I was very sexual in kindergarten. &amp;quot;I created a game where I would kiss the boys and give them cooties (children&#039;s fictional disease). Then we would make out and we would take our clothes off.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;] (1987).&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|lesbian]], but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Anonymous boy, 14&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;My brother (three years older) initiated some &#039;exploration&#039; (I was around 10 years old at the time) - showing our penises, measuring them, eventually leading to me licking his penis. This eventually led to frequent mutual masturbation, oral sex, and an attempt at anal sex, with me on bottom (we used shampoo for lube - ouch). There was a period where my brother lost interest in such activities, but I continued craving sex with him. I eventually got more - he would let me suck him off, and we eventually did anal once, with me on top this time. After a few minutes he wasn&#039;t interested anymore and I finished him off by mouth. I was 14 at the time. The frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off after that, and it has been several months since anything happened (I still crave cock though).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/441610.htm AlbertRoss on GirlChat], May 21 2008&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:Although his real name is probably not known, he has previously outed himself on video. &amp;quot;my older male friend was about four or five years ahead of me, almost fourteen to my nine, at the time we met. two of the best years of my life, in so many ways, and not just because he had a swimming pool in his front yard, nor because his dad was well off, and took us all out to dinner a lot. i learned most of what i know about sex from him. normal heterosexual sex, that is - his interest was in me, mine was about girls, he had the details i wanted, and i hadn&#039;t yet been tainted by homophobia. what they call a win/win situation, i guess. i discovered the phobia at eleven, told him i couldn&#039;t see him any more, and that was it. took me decades to get over the sense of having done something terribly wrong, and quite a few more to restore my memories to what i now remember - that overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder. in short - the only harm i experienced was that imposed on me by outside prejudices. i&#039;m exclusively hetero, and always have been, and today i feel diminished by that..&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html Mother of two boys], from: &amp;quot;Molested: A mother discovers that the legal system&#039;s nightmarish &#039;cure&#039; for child sexual abuse can be worse than the disease&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Salon&#039;&#039;, February 28 1997.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:As well as being a very reliable and articulate source for the younger brother&#039;s feelings about an affectionate, family sex relationship, there are many points raised about the persecution of young people in a sex-negative welfare state. &amp;quot;Between my two sons, there was kissing, there was touching, there was oral contact (&amp;quot;sodomy&amp;quot;). There was a lot of looking. There was no penetration, no force, no threats. They are several years apart in age and the contacts occurred over several weeks. My youngest son confessed in tears that he&#039;d enjoyed it, and was very sorry he&#039;d gotten his brother in so much trouble.&amp;quot; (Parts [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303112703/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested970228.html 1], [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303150342/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested2970228.html 2] and [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html 3] | [http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/mother.htm Combined] )&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;[http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Boys_family_fights_sex_charges/UPI-54821228781406/ Boy&#039;s family fights sex charges]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;United Press Internationa&#039;&#039;, December 8 2008.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Several teenage girls in Mequon, Wis., say they object to a classmate being criminally prosecuted for allegedly touching them inappropriately. The girls, in court affidavits, said they did not feel degraded by the boy, now 14, and don&#039;t want to see him prosecuted for five counts of fourth-degree sexual assault, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday. [...] Prosecutors allege the boy several times in 2007 and in June 2008, when he was 13, grabbed the girls&#039; buttocks or their breasts, licked a girl&#039;s neck and tickled a girl in the stomach.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/04/chris-brown-rihanna-interview-x Chris Brown], quoted in: Aitkenhead, Decca. &amp;quot;Chris Brown: &#039;It was the biggest wake-up call&#039;&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, October 4 2013.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:He lost his virginity when he was eight years old, to a local girl who was 14 or 15. Seriously? &amp;quot;Yeah, really. Uh-huh.&amp;quot; He grins and chuckles. &amp;quot;It&#039;s different in the country.&amp;quot; Brown grew up with a great gang of boy cousins, and they watched so much porn that he was raring to go. &amp;quot;By that point, we were already kind of like hot to trot, you know what I&#039;m saying? Like, girls, we weren&#039;t afraid to talk to them; I wasn&#039;t afraid. So, at eight, being able to do it, it kind of preps you for the long run, so you can be a beast at it. You can be the best at it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). &#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]&#039;&#039;.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;My neighborhood environment has always been quite permissive which enabled me (a boy) the time and freedom to become the finest five year old doctor in my neighborhood. I clearly remember associating my penile erections with examination of the next door girl&#039;s anatomy.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I (a girl) encountered a sexual experience that was confusing at kindergarten age.... Some afternoons we would meet and lock ourselves in a bedroom and take our pants off. We took turns lying on the bed and put pennies, marbles, etc. between our labia. The other two liked to pretend they were boys and used a pencil for a penis. As the ritual became old hat, it passed out of existence. I enjoyed the sexual manipulation, for it was stimulating.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;The girl and I were age six. I suggested playing doctor. We took off our clothes and then she lay down on her stomach so I could give her a &amp;quot;shot.&amp;quot; [...] She messed around a little bit until I began to get what was for me my first memorable erection. [...] She started to touch it, pulled back quickly (still giggling), then touched it and finally put her hand on it. At that time I wasn&#039;t exactly prepared for the sensations I received so I suggested that maybe she shouldn&#039;t do that any more. I seem to remember a strange feeling when looking at her genitals. I couldn&#039;t figure out what they were for but while looking, I felt a pleasurable sensation in my own genitals, and I&#039;m sure that the thought of placing mine near hers passed through my mind but I dismissed it for lack of time (her mother would be coming soon).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;When I [a girl] was about seven years old, my eleven year old neighbor girl friend and I would get together and play games which involved fondling and exploring each other&#039;s body.... A game that we played was referred to as &amp;quot;upper&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;lower&amp;quot; and this would include choosing one of the words and the other person would stimulate that portion of the body for about 10-15 minutes. This we did anywhere since it did not involve taking off clothes, just placing the hand inside the clothing. By sexual contacts I had a release to strange feelings inside me and got much physical satisfaction when arms were holding me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I (age 12) was invited to an all boy slumber party at one of my friend&#039;s homes.... I laid down next to Jim, and we talked for a long time and I remember scratching his back and then I remember him asking if I would itch his &amp;quot;cock.&amp;quot; I guess it was more curiosity at his big organ than anything that led me to comply and I did. [...] Anyway, I was stimulating him and he all of a sudden insisted that I stop. I didn&#039;t know why at the time, but I did what he said. He then suggested that he return the favor. Well, he began to manually stimulate me, and the sensation was so great at orgasm I honestly remember that I made him stop for a second. Then I asked him to start again and the sensation came back and I made him stop again. I was too young to ejaculate anything, but it sure felt good. We repeated the cycle at least ten times before we quit.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*My second homosexual experience was one with my older cousin. I think I was in about fifth grade when this happened, and he must have been in about eighth grade of junior high school. The contact involved lying down on the couch and unzipping each other&#039;s pants and fondling, caressing, and masturbating each other&#039;s genitals. I remember he felt a special sensation when I would reach way around his scrotum and fondle his testes. We would take turns stimulating each other and then we would fondle each other simultaneously. I also received great pleasure from this homosexual contact.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]] [[Category:Testimony: Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Expressed_childhood_sexuality&amp;diff=34659</id>
		<title>Testimony: Expressed childhood sexuality</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Testimony:_Expressed_childhood_sexuality&amp;diff=34659"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:36:29Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:A&amp;amp;T}}&lt;br /&gt;
There are numerous recorded examples of children and minors engaging in sexual behaviors among themselves. This accounts for the vast bulk of sexual interactions involving youth. Teenage boys are the [[Research: Who offends and how often?|most at-risk group]] for prosecution of all sexual contact involving minors, even more so than adult men.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://anu.nfshost.com/?p=92 Steve Diamond on ATC blog (defunct)]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I have naturally craved sex...sexual touch, through all stages of my conscious life. I do not remember any phase during my childhood, when I was without sexual attraction and arousal. It was very natural, and spontaneous. I never disliked it, though I learned to hide it from others. [...] But I have, honestly, known several children (when I was a boy), who were having sex...semi-regular, and prior to puberty. Nobody complained...Everybody liked it...Everybody made the choice to be there and do that.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Nine-year-old girl, quoted in: Martin, Lorna and Card, Nell. &amp;quot;[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1669967,00.html The secret love life of Laura-Anne, aged 9¾]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, December 18 2005.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Laura-Anne Hanrahan [nine years old] is sitting on her doorstep, playing with a pumpkin as she describes how she felt when her boyfriend kissed her. &#039;Tingly,&#039; she says, dreamily. &#039;He used to come over and cuddle me and put his hands up my top. It used to feel cosy. I feel desperate to go up to him and say &amp;quot;Ben, why don&#039;t we kiss any more&amp;quot;. It hurts so much that we don&#039;t kiss that I want to rip my heart out and throw it away.&#039;&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys&#039; boarding schools.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Angelina-Jolie-Was-A-Kindergarten-Sex-Kitten-3855.html Angelina Jolie] (actress), quoted in: &amp;quot;Angelina Jolie Was A Kindergarten Sex Kitten&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;World Entertainment News Network&#039;&#039;, April 18 2007.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I was a member of a group called the Kissy Girls. I was very sexual in kindergarten. &amp;quot;I created a game where I would kiss the boys and give them cooties (children&#039;s fictional disease). Then we would make out and we would take our clothes off.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;] (1987).&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Anonymous boy, 14&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;My brother (three years older) initiated some &#039;exploration&#039; (I was around 10 years old at the time) - showing our penises, measuring them, eventually leading to me licking his penis. This eventually led to frequent mutual masturbation, oral sex, and an attempt at anal sex, with me on bottom (we used shampoo for lube - ouch). There was a period where my brother lost interest in such activities, but I continued craving sex with him. I eventually got more - he would let me suck him off, and we eventually did anal once, with me on top this time. After a few minutes he wasn&#039;t interested anymore and I finished him off by mouth. I was 14 at the time. The frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off after that, and it has been several months since anything happened (I still crave cock though).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/441610.htm AlbertRoss on GirlChat], May 21 2008&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:Although his real name is probably not known, he has previously outed himself on video. &amp;quot;my older male friend was about four or five years ahead of me, almost fourteen to my nine, at the time we met. two of the best years of my life, in so many ways, and not just because he had a swimming pool in his front yard, nor because his dad was well off, and took us all out to dinner a lot. i learned most of what i know about sex from him. normal heterosexual sex, that is - his interest was in me, mine was about girls, he had the details i wanted, and i hadn&#039;t yet been tainted by homophobia. what they call a win/win situation, i guess. i discovered the phobia at eleven, told him i couldn&#039;t see him any more, and that was it. took me decades to get over the sense of having done something terribly wrong, and quite a few more to restore my memories to what i now remember - that overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder. in short - the only harm i experienced was that imposed on me by outside prejudices. i&#039;m exclusively hetero, and always have been, and today i feel diminished by that..&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html Mother of two boys], from: &amp;quot;Molested: A mother discovers that the legal system&#039;s nightmarish &#039;cure&#039; for child sexual abuse can be worse than the disease&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;Salon&#039;&#039;, February 28 1997.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:As well as being a very reliable and articulate source for the younger brother&#039;s feelings about an affectionate, family sex relationship, there are many points raised about the persecution of young people in a sex-negative welfare state. &amp;quot;Between my two sons, there was kissing, there was touching, there was oral contact (&amp;quot;sodomy&amp;quot;). There was a lot of looking. There was no penetration, no force, no threats. They are several years apart in age and the contacts occurred over several weeks. My youngest son confessed in tears that he&#039;d enjoyed it, and was very sorry he&#039;d gotten his brother in so much trouble.&amp;quot; (Parts [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303112703/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested970228.html 1], [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303150342/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested2970228.html 2] and [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html 3] | [http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/mother.htm Combined] )&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;[http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Boys_family_fights_sex_charges/UPI-54821228781406/ Boy&#039;s family fights sex charges]&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;United Press Internationa&#039;&#039;, December 8 2008.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:&amp;quot;Several teenage girls in Mequon, Wis., say they object to a classmate being criminally prosecuted for allegedly touching them inappropriately. The girls, in court affidavits, said they did not feel degraded by the boy, now 14, and don&#039;t want to see him prosecuted for five counts of fourth-degree sexual assault, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday. [...] Prosecutors allege the boy several times in 2007 and in June 2008, when he was 13, grabbed the girls&#039; buttocks or their breasts, licked a girl&#039;s neck and tickled a girl in the stomach.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/04/chris-brown-rihanna-interview-x Chris Brown], quoted in: Aitkenhead, Decca. &amp;quot;Chris Brown: &#039;It was the biggest wake-up call&#039;&amp;quot;, &#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, October 4 2013.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
*:He lost his virginity when he was eight years old, to a local girl who was 14 or 15. Seriously? &amp;quot;Yeah, really. Uh-huh.&amp;quot; He grins and chuckles. &amp;quot;It&#039;s different in the country.&amp;quot; Brown grew up with a great gang of boy cousins, and they watched so much porn that he was raring to go. &amp;quot;By that point, we were already kind of like hot to trot, you know what I&#039;m saying? Like, girls, we weren&#039;t afraid to talk to them; I wasn&#039;t afraid. So, at eight, being able to do it, it kind of preps you for the long run, so you can be a beast at it. You can be the best at it.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). &#039;&#039;[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]&#039;&#039;.&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;My neighborhood environment has always been quite permissive which enabled me (a boy) the time and freedom to become the finest five year old doctor in my neighborhood. I clearly remember associating my penile erections with examination of the next door girl&#039;s anatomy.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I (a girl) encountered a sexual experience that was confusing at kindergarten age.... Some afternoons we would meet and lock ourselves in a bedroom and take our pants off. We took turns lying on the bed and put pennies, marbles, etc. between our labia. The other two liked to pretend they were boys and used a pencil for a penis. As the ritual became old hat, it passed out of existence. I enjoyed the sexual manipulation, for it was stimulating.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;The girl and I were age six. I suggested playing doctor. We took off our clothes and then she lay down on her stomach so I could give her a &amp;quot;shot.&amp;quot; [...] She messed around a little bit until I began to get what was for me my first memorable erection. [...] She started to touch it, pulled back quickly (still giggling), then touched it and finally put her hand on it. At that time I wasn&#039;t exactly prepared for the sensations I received so I suggested that maybe she shouldn&#039;t do that any more. I seem to remember a strange feeling when looking at her genitals. I couldn&#039;t figure out what they were for but while looking, I felt a pleasurable sensation in my own genitals, and I&#039;m sure that the thought of placing mine near hers passed through my mind but I dismissed it for lack of time (her mother would be coming soon).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;When I [a girl] was about seven years old, my eleven year old neighbor girl friend and I would get together and play games which involved fondling and exploring each other&#039;s body.... A game that we played was referred to as &amp;quot;upper&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;lower&amp;quot; and this would include choosing one of the words and the other person would stimulate that portion of the body for about 10-15 minutes. This we did anywhere since it did not involve taking off clothes, just placing the hand inside the clothing. By sexual contacts I had a release to strange feelings inside me and got much physical satisfaction when arms were holding me.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*&amp;quot;I (age 12) was invited to an all boy slumber party at one of my friend&#039;s homes.... I laid down next to Jim, and we talked for a long time and I remember scratching his back and then I remember him asking if I would itch his &amp;quot;cock.&amp;quot; I guess it was more curiosity at his big organ than anything that led me to comply and I did. [...] Anyway, I was stimulating him and he all of a sudden insisted that I stop. I didn&#039;t know why at the time, but I did what he said. He then suggested that he return the favor. Well, he began to manually stimulate me, and the sensation was so great at orgasm I honestly remember that I made him stop for a second. Then I asked him to start again and the sensation came back and I made him stop again. I was too young to ejaculate anything, but it sure felt good. We repeated the cycle at least ten times before we quit.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
:*My second homosexual experience was one with my older cousin. I think I was in about fifth grade when this happened, and he must have been in about eighth grade of junior high school. The contact involved lying down on the couch and unzipping each other&#039;s pants and fondling, caressing, and masturbating each other&#039;s genitals. I remember he felt a special sensation when I would reach way around his scrotum and fondle his testes. We would take turns stimulating each other and then we would fondle each other simultaneously. I also received great pleasure from this homosexual contact.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]] [[Category:Testimony: Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34658</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34658"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:30:19Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by [[Feminism|feminist]] civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Nestle, [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;] (1987). [Annas Archive PDF link].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Various editions are available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina&#039;s husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pornography [[Feminism|feminism]]. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=User:Prue&amp;diff=34657</id>
		<title>User:Prue</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=User:Prue&amp;diff=34657"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:23:42Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;[[File:Bluecross.png|thumb|This user has been awarded a blue cross (for contributing at least &#039;&#039;&#039;7&#039;&#039;&#039; complete articles on NewgonWiki), and is thus able to award the cross to any other editor]]&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Role:&#039;&#039;&#039; Editorial Lead: [[Newgon Support Team|Social History and Critical Theory]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Teleiophile (i.e. not, myself, an MAP). I&#039;ve come to be interested in MAP issues through scholarship, so I tend to produce pages about academics and historical figures related to MAPs. Some pages I&#039;ve produced include:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I made pages for all but one of the &amp;quot;famous pedophiles&amp;quot; blog. Includes [[Andre Gide]], [[Johann Wolfgang von Goethe]], [[Thomas Mann]], [[Edgar Allan Poe]], [[Lord Byron]], [[Gabriel Garcia Marquez]], [[Samuel de Champlain]], [[Novalis]], [[Mark Twain]], [[Will Durant]], [[Horatio Alger]], [[Giacomo Casanova]], [[Mahatma Gandhi]], the [[Prophet Muhammad]], [[Srinivasa Ramanujan]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]], [[M. P. Shiel]], [[T. H. White]], [[Kentaro Miura]] and [[Hayao Miyazaki]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Intergenerational Lesbianism]] is largely by me, including the summary of historian Amanda H. Littauer&#039;s 2020 article in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonials]] page. The detailed [[Feminism]] page is largely by me, as well as the detailed page on the lesbian feminist [[Joan Nestle]], who documented her own intergenerational desire directed towards older women during her childhood.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*A large fact-checker article on [[Erwin Schrodinger]]. Large articles on historical MAP figures: [[Charlie Chaplin]], [[John Ruskin]], [[Eric Gill]], and [[Ernest Dowson]]. The most detailed article anywhere on [[Roger Moody]], a left-wing MAP figure who was the 1st British person to openly declare himself a &amp;quot;paedophile&amp;quot; in print. The most detailed page anywhere on [[Nettie Pollard]], a pioneering British lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner who supported [[PIE]] and children&#039;s liberation. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*General/miscellaneous: Australian modern MAP figure [[Clarence Osborne]]. The author of &#039;&#039;Lolita&#039;&#039;, [[Vladimir Nabokov]], and the contemporary artist he admired: [[Balthus]]. Books like Nancy Friday&#039;s truly sex-positive [[My Secret Garden]], and the 1st anthology of American homosexual literature [[Men and Boys: An Anthology (1924)]], as well as its author [[Edward Mark Slocum]]. The [[Encyclopedia of Homosexuality]] (1990) - a good starting point for the history of [[pederasty]]. [[Boyd McDonald]] - publisher of reader&#039;s sex stories / histories in the long-running gay pornography and erotic literature zine &#039;&#039;S.T.H.&#039;&#039; or &#039;&#039;Straight to Hell&#039;&#039;, which often involved childhood experiences and age-gap sexual experience. Gay icons [[Harvey Milk]] and [[Craig Rodwell]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Academics (General): [[Ken Plummer]], [[John P. De Cecco]], [[David Sonenschein]], [[Ernest Borneman]], [[John Money]], [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[Gilbert Herdt]], [[Gert Hekma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc]], [[Theo Sandfort]], [[Terry Leahy]] (updated links), [[Allie C. Kilpatrick]], [[Paul Okami]], [[Chin-Keung Li]]/C.K. Li, [[Warren Johansson]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster]], [[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal]], [[Hoko Horii]], [[Gennady Borisovich Deryagin]], [[LeRoy G. Schultz]], [[Preben Hertoft]], [[Helmut Graupner]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Volkmar Sigusch]], [[Eberhard Schorsch]], [[Gunter Schmidt]], [[Thore Langfeldt]], [[Katharina Rutschky]], [[Marjan Sax]], [[Pat Sikes]] (teacher-student relationships), [[Jeffrey Weeks]], [[Philip Jenkins]], [[Charles Shively]] and his friend [[NAMBLA]] spokesperson [[Tom Reeves]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I&#039;ve helped to make books such as [[The Betrayal of Youth (Book)]] (1986), and [[Pedophiles on Parade]] (Vol. 1 and 2, 1998), available to the general public, online for free. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Many pages I&#039;ve made relate to [[Communism|Left-wing politics]]. E.g. The most detailed article anywhere on the the life and thought of the once influential anarchist German MAP activist [[Peter Schult]]. This involved translating the 1 German academic biography about him, summarized in [[Beispiel Peter Schult]]. Created pages for the anarchists [[Sebastien Faure]], [[Wolfi Landstreicher]], [[Noam Chomsky]], [[Vaush]], and the socialist [[The_Oneida_Community|Oneida Community]] which institutionalized woman-boy sexual contact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*French figures, including queer theorists [[Guy Hocquenghem]] and [[Mario Mieli]]; writers [[Pierre Louys]], [[Jacques d&#039;Adelsward-Fersen]], [[Jean-Claude Féray]], [[Roger Peyrefitte]], [[Tony Duvert]], and [[Gabriel Matzneff]]; artists like [[Paul Gauguin]], and film director / writer [[Alain Robbe-Grillet]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Japanese figures (mostly manga artists): [[Kentaro Miura]], [[Nobuhiro Watsuki]], [[Mitsutoshi Shimabukuro]], [[Kenya Suzuki]], [[Tatsuya Matsuki]], [[Hidekazu Tanaka]], [[Ken Akamatsu]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Indian figures: [[Anandi Gopal Joshi]], [[Rani Laxmibai]], [[B. R. Ambedkar]], [[Chakravarti Rajagopalachari]], [[Mahadev Govind Ranade]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;ve also made edits to already existing pages that aren&#039;t shown here. Want to get in touch? Leave a comment at heretictoc.com and I&#039;ll be likely to see it and reply. Or join the [[Help:Joining PCMA chat|Newgon chat on Matrix/Element]].&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=User:Prue&amp;diff=34656</id>
		<title>User:Prue</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=User:Prue&amp;diff=34656"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:22:53Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[[File:Bluecross.png|thumb|This user has been awarded a blue cross (for contributing at least &#039;&#039;&#039;7&#039;&#039;&#039; complete articles on NewgonWiki), and is thus able to award the cross to any other editor]]&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Role:&#039;&#039;&#039; Editorial Lead: [[Newgon Support Team|Social History and Critical Theory]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Teleiophile (i.e. not, myself, an MAP). I&#039;ve come to be interested in MAP issues through scholarship, so I tend to produce pages about academics and historical figures related to MAPs. Some pages I&#039;ve produced include:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I made pages for all but one of the &amp;quot;famous pedophiles&amp;quot; blog. Includes [[Andre Gide]], [[Johann Wolfgang von Goethe]], [[Thomas Mann]], [[Edgar Allan Poe]], [[Lord Byron]], [[Gabriel Garcia Marquez]], [[Samuel de Champlain]], [[Novalis]], [[Mark Twain]], [[Will Durant]], [[Horatio Alger]], [[Giacomo Casanova]], [[Mahatma Gandhi]], the [[Prophet Muhammad]], [[Srinivasa Ramanujan]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]], [[M. P. Shiel]], [[T. H. White]], [[Kentaro Miura]] and [[Hayao Miyazaki]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Intergenerational Lesbianism]] is largely by me, including the summary of historian Amanda H. Littauer&#039;s 2020 article in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonials]] page. The detailed [[Feminism]] page is largely by me, including a detailed page on the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] who documented her own intergenerational desire directed at older women during her childhood.   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*A large fact-checker article on [[Erwin Schrodinger]]. Large articles on historical MAP figures: [[Charlie Chaplin]], [[John Ruskin]], [[Eric Gill]], and [[Ernest Dowson]]. The most detailed article anywhere on [[Roger Moody]], a left-wing MAP figure who was the 1st British person to openly declare himself a &amp;quot;paedophile&amp;quot; in print. The most detailed page anywhere on [[Nettie Pollard]], a pioneering British lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner who supported [[PIE]] and children&#039;s liberation. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*General/miscellaneous: Australian modern MAP figure [[Clarence Osborne]]. The author of &#039;&#039;Lolita&#039;&#039;, [[Vladimir Nabokov]], and the contemporary artist he admired: [[Balthus]]. Books like Nancy Friday&#039;s truly sex-positive [[My Secret Garden]], and the 1st anthology of American homosexual literature [[Men and Boys: An Anthology (1924)]], as well as its author [[Edward Mark Slocum]]. The [[Encyclopedia of Homosexuality]] (1990) - a good starting point for the history of [[pederasty]]. [[Boyd McDonald]] - publisher of reader&#039;s sex stories / histories in the long-running gay pornography and erotic literature zine &#039;&#039;S.T.H.&#039;&#039; or &#039;&#039;Straight to Hell&#039;&#039;, which often involved childhood experiences and age-gap sexual experience. Gay icons [[Harvey Milk]] and [[Craig Rodwell]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Academics (General): [[Ken Plummer]], [[John P. De Cecco]], [[David Sonenschein]], [[Ernest Borneman]], [[John Money]], [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[Gilbert Herdt]], [[Gert Hekma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc]], [[Theo Sandfort]], [[Terry Leahy]] (updated links), [[Allie C. Kilpatrick]], [[Paul Okami]], [[Chin-Keung Li]]/C.K. Li, [[Warren Johansson]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster]], [[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal]], [[Hoko Horii]], [[Gennady Borisovich Deryagin]], [[LeRoy G. Schultz]], [[Preben Hertoft]], [[Helmut Graupner]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Volkmar Sigusch]], [[Eberhard Schorsch]], [[Gunter Schmidt]], [[Thore Langfeldt]], [[Katharina Rutschky]], [[Marjan Sax]], [[Pat Sikes]] (teacher-student relationships), [[Jeffrey Weeks]], [[Philip Jenkins]], [[Charles Shively]] and his friend [[NAMBLA]] spokesperson [[Tom Reeves]]. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*I&#039;ve helped to make books such as [[The Betrayal of Youth (Book)]] (1986), and [[Pedophiles on Parade]] (Vol. 1 and 2, 1998), available to the general public, online for free. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Many pages I&#039;ve made relate to [[Communism|Left-wing politics]]. E.g. The most detailed article anywhere on the the life and thought of the once influential anarchist German MAP activist [[Peter Schult]]. This involved translating the 1 German academic biography about him, summarized in [[Beispiel Peter Schult]]. Created pages for the anarchists [[Sebastien Faure]], [[Wolfi Landstreicher]], [[Noam Chomsky]], [[Vaush]], and the socialist [[The_Oneida_Community|Oneida Community]] which institutionalized woman-boy sexual contact.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*French figures, including queer theorists [[Guy Hocquenghem]] and [[Mario Mieli]]; writers [[Pierre Louys]], [[Jacques d&#039;Adelsward-Fersen]], [[Jean-Claude Féray]], [[Roger Peyrefitte]], [[Tony Duvert]], and [[Gabriel Matzneff]]; artists like [[Paul Gauguin]], and film director / writer [[Alain Robbe-Grillet]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Japanese figures (mostly manga artists): [[Kentaro Miura]], [[Nobuhiro Watsuki]], [[Mitsutoshi Shimabukuro]], [[Kenya Suzuki]], [[Tatsuya Matsuki]], [[Hidekazu Tanaka]], [[Ken Akamatsu]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Indian figures: [[Anandi Gopal Joshi]], [[Rani Laxmibai]], [[B. R. Ambedkar]], [[Chakravarti Rajagopalachari]], [[Mahadev Govind Ranade]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;ve also made edits to already existing pages that aren&#039;t shown here. Want to get in touch? Leave a comment at heretictoc.com and I&#039;ll be likely to see it and reply. Or join the [[Help:Joining PCMA chat|Newgon chat on Matrix/Element]].&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Feminism&amp;diff=34655</id>
		<title>Feminism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Feminism&amp;diff=34655"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:20:34Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:Adj}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Feminism&#039;&#039;&#039; is a belief-system based on a purported anti-oppression point of view as applied to the contemporary situation of women and historical abuses faced by women and other minorities. The feminist discourse is particularly concerned with equal rights, and in some cases, outright [[inequality|equality]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Many of the most influential feminists of the 20th century have made supportive statements about minor-older erotic behavior, including [[Gayle Rubin]], [[Germaine Greer]], [[Kate Millett]], [[Simone de Beauvoir]], [[Shulamith Firestone]], [[Judith Butler]], and [[Andrea Dworkin]]. Whilst some other sex-positive and/or dissident feminists such as [[Jane Rule]], [[Camille Paglia]], [[Patrick Califia]], [[Nettie Pollard]], [[Joan Nestle]], [[Judith Levine]], [[Yasmin Nair]], [[Beatrice_Faust|Beatrice Faust]], [[Essay:Our Sexuality, Ourselves (Review of The Age Taboo in Gay Community News)|Cindy Patton]], [[Stevi Jackson]], [[Katharina Rutschky]], [[Nina Power]], [[Heather Corinna]], [[Janice Irvine]], [[Sharon Lamb]] and [[Carol Tavris]], elaborate contrarian philosophies and anecdotes on the issue of adult-minor sexuality, since the 1970s the discourse has been increasingly used to condemn such sexual relationships on the basis that inequalities render them universally &amp;quot;abusive&amp;quot;. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
At present, adjacent movements such as pro-sex work, sex-positive, and [[Wikipedia:Carceral feminism|anti-carceral]] feminism are more likely to hold positions that pro-choice MAP and youth rights activists may hold, including the recognition that [[Research:_Commercial_and_online_sexual_exploitation|minors choose and want]] to engage in sex and sex work, and that prisons and public registration for lawbreakers are ineffective strategies for reducing the incidence of unlawful erotic behavior, especially when law makes no distinctions between mutually willing eroticism and unwanted, violent assaults, and criminalizes minors for [[consent|consensual]] erotic activity with other minors (Levine and Meiners&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/13B331C61A42685FEE3ECF8BD1F0BD99 The Feminist and the Sex Offender]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2020; Taylor&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://wapercyfoundation.org/?page_id=1086 News &amp;amp; Resources: review – Taylor: ‘Foucault, Feminism, &amp;amp; Sex Crimes’]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2018).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The influence of sex-positive and anti-carceral feminism remains marginal in comparison to the dominance of carceral feminism (Angela Davis et al.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/018C1834DB2D87853010DEB45DC25067 Abolition. Feminism. Now.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; 2022; Aya Gruber, 2020&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See Aya Gruber, &#039;&#039;The Feminist War on Crime: The Unexpected Role of Women&#039;s Liberation in Mass Incarceration&#039;&#039; (University of California Press, 2020).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, etc.).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Amia Srinivasan, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Sex &#039;&#039;The Right to Sex: Feminism in the Twenty-First Century&#039;&#039;] (Bloomsbury, 2021), pp. 170-71. [See [https://www.boychat.org/messages/1583018.htm quote on Boychat]]. [See [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/cb5d9c5ddef6afa61be6949bdac044d2 Annas Archive for PDF link]].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It could be said that the loathing felt by some [[Minor Attracted People|MAPs]], particularly [[boylovers]] towards feminists as a group is similar in magnitude to the derision which present day feminists show towards boy-attracted males. For an account of activism against the MAP-youth rights organization NAMBLA, written by a self-identified feminist, see the 1992 issue of Women&#039;s magazine &#039;&#039;Off Our Backs&#039;&#039; [[Media:Off_Our_Backs_-_1992_-_Anti-NAMBLA_Activism.pdf|here]]. For a well-read and articulate feminist critique of common [[pro-c]] arguments, see the work of Sheila Jeffreys.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See ‘PAEDOPHILIA’, in &#039;&#039;Anticlimax: A Feminist Perspective on the Sexual Revolution&#039;&#039; (1990), pp. 134-149.; CHAPTER 5 The Paedophile Liberation Movement, in &#039;&#039;Penile Imperialism: The Male Sex Right and Women&#039;s Subordination&#039;&#039; (2022).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Reasons for loathing of &amp;quot;feminism&amp;quot; among MAPs==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A number of reasons can be speculatively offered:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* The role of feminists in the social purity movement of the Victorian era, and their role in raising the [[Age of Consent]]. Perception of feminism as a founder member of the [[child sexual abuse]] [[psychiatry]] agenda of the late 1970s, 80s and onwards, with the establishment of psychiatric organizations such as [[The Leadership Council]], sometimes fronted by suspected exclusionary feminists.&lt;br /&gt;
* Conflation of [[pederasty]] (a practice that brings with it a considerable historical tradition) with the fledgling [[incest]] model of [[Child Sexual Abuse]]. The perception that this generalization involves a knowing revision of that well-established history.&lt;br /&gt;
* Failure of feminists to explain experiences of [[boy]]s and [[boylover]]s that run contrary to those speculated in feminist critiques of intergenerational relationships.&lt;br /&gt;
* Failure of feminists to identify with or even tentatively address issues related to masculinity. Prof. [[John P. De Cecco]] argued that identity [[Wikipedia:Essentialism|essentialist]] feminists &amp;quot;are jealous of men who show the kind of nurturance that only females are supposed to posses&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/File:John_de_cecco_paidika_issue_3_interview.pdf De Cecco Paidika interview (1987)] - (Archived PDF copy).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
* The perception of modern feminism as female elitism (&amp;quot;feminazi&amp;quot;, etc) and/or institutionalized model of covertly exercised authority.&lt;br /&gt;
* Attempts by feminists to represent (gay) youth and encourage their &amp;quot;rights&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;participation&amp;quot; whilst at the same time [[Ageism|infantalizing]] them and denying their autonomy.&lt;br /&gt;
* Alliances between radical feminists (TERFs/SWERFs) and violently anti-pedophile ideologies - particularly those of the right. These alliances have been rejuvenated after the [[MAP Movement]] achieved basic visibility in the 2020s.&lt;br /&gt;
* Plain misogyny.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Whilst many of these grievances may have more than a firm foothold in reality, it can certainly be said that their airing has done little good for the cause of [[boylove]] or MAPs in general.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===MAP-Exclusionary Radical Feminism===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A solution to the MAP/Feminism paradox might be to define a group of radical feminists who are particularly hostile towards MAPs, or motivated by hate. For example, in setting out care guidelines for survivors of CSA, [[UNICEF]] states &amp;quot;incest and &#039;&#039;&#039;paedophilia&#039;&#039;&#039; are forms of child sexual abuse shaped and perpetuated by patriarchal systems and harmful masculine ideologies&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.unicef.org/media/155226/file/CCS%20Guidelines%20Final%20.pdf CARING FOR CHILD SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE GUIDELINES (2nd Ed)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; (our emphasis), referencing Kelly and Lusk&#039;s 1992 &amp;quot;theories of pedophilia&amp;quot;. This would be a clear use of feminist ideology to attack or malign an [[pedophilia|identity group]] or sexual orientation.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Pro-choice/pro-youth Feminism reading list==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As mentioned earlier on, some contrary examples exist. A few potential starting points follow:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===1st-wave Feminism===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Wikipedia:Emma Goldman|Emma Goldman]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Wikipedia states that Emma Goldman (June 27, 1869 – May 14, 1940) was an anarchist political activist and writer. She played a pivotal role in the development of anarchist political philosophy in North America and Europe in the first half of the 20th century.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;When the child reaches adolescence, it meets, added to the home and school restrictions, with a vast amount of hard traditions of social morality. The cravings of love and sex are met with absolute ignorance by the majority of parents, who consider it as something indecent and improper, something disgraceful, almost criminal, to be suppressed and fought like some terrible disease. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; Some will ask, what about weak natures, must they not be protected? Yes, but to be able to do that, it will be necessary to realize that education of children is not synonymous with herdlike drilling and training. If education should really mean anything at all, it must insist upon the free growth and development of the innate forces and tendencies of the child.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Emma Goldman&#039;&#039;&#039;, &#039;The Child and Its Enemies&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Mother Earth&#039;&#039;, Vol. 1: No. 2 (April 1906).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-the-child-and-its-enemies Emma Goldman, &#039;The Child and Its Enemies&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Mother Earth&#039;&#039;, Vol. 1: No. 2 (April 1906)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===2nd-wave Feminism===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Wikipedia:Simone de Beauvoir|Simone de Beauvoir]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Beauvoir was a highly influential French public intellectual and a leading voice of 2nd wave feminism. She was a communist, existentialist, feminist author, interested in understanding and overcoming limitations on human freedom (what existentialists call living in “Bad Faith”).  In the West, Beauvoir is best known for her life-long unconventional partnership with existentialist philosopher [[Wikipedia:Jean-Paul Sartre|Jean-Paul Sartre]], as well as her book “[[Wikipedia:The Second Sex|The Second Sex]]” (1949), often considered the starting inspiration point of second-wave feminism and a foundational text for social constructionist theories of gender, with its famous line: “one is not born, but rather, becomes a woman”. Beauvoir was one of the signatories of the [[Wikipedia:French petition against age of consent laws|French petition]] calling to abolish age of consent laws. Below we quote from scholarship below which explains her theories on childhood, and her sexual relationships with her young students. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In Beauvoir’s ongoing project to explore the possibility of moral freedom, childhood is repeatedly pinpointed as the moment when the greatest failure can occur. The child remains within the adult as a haunting, ‘dutiful’ presence of the past; furthering the situating fact of birth, childhood sets limitations for the individual. Children are born with a certain body, and within certain sociopolitical and cultural conditions; both condition the emergence of their subjectivity. For Beauvoir, early childhood experiences wound children by instilling in them a belief in essentialism and in unquestionable authorities. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; In childhood, one is kept under the illusion, carefully created by adults, that universal moral principles exist.&#039;&#039; (p. 332). &#039;&#039;With astonishment, revolt and disrespect the child little by little asks himself, “Why must I act that way? What good is it? And what will happen if I act another way?” He discovers his subjectivity; he discovers that of others.’ (Beauvoir, Ethics of Ambiguity, 39). Teenage crisis, for Beauvoir, is precisely the shock of finding one’s questions unanswered, of having to accept one’s subjectivity and one’s potential independence from arbitrary adult prescriptions. By questioning the world, teenagers can extract themselves from the behaviours of bad faith encouraged by the ready-made judgements of their families and educators&#039;&#039; (pp. 335-336). &#039;&#039; &#039;&#039;[C]&#039;&#039;hildhood itself becomes a space of &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; conflict between what is and what could be. Inquisitive, dissatisfied, suspicious: the child, for Beauvoir, embodies the fugitive vision that one can have of freedom and transcendence even as one is carefully conditioned to engage in bad faith. Her portrayal of childhood thus exacerbates a central tension of existentialism: the individual aspiration towards the future, clashing against a quickly solidifying situation&#039;&#039; (p. 336).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Clémentine Beauvais&#039;&#039;&#039;, ‘Simone de Beauvoir and the Ambiguity of Childhood’, in &#039;&#039;Paragraph&#039;&#039;, 38:3 (2015), 329–346.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3366/para.2015.0171 Clémentine Beauvais, ‘Simone de Beauvoir and the Ambiguity of Childhood’, in &#039;&#039;Paragraph&#039;&#039;, 38:3 (2015), 329–346.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/44016387 Beauvais - Jstor]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Beauvoir&#039;s posthumously published journals and letters from 1939-41 reveal that she engaged in sexual affairs with students and former students from her philosophy classes; she often led them to her hotel room to tutor them in philosophy and, eventually, take them to bed.&#039;&#039; (p. 149)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Margaret A. Simons&#039;&#039;&#039;, ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Signs&#039;&#039;, 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174730 Margaret A. Simons, ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Signs&#039;&#039;, 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Wikipedia:Shulamith Firestone|Shulamith Firestone]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Chapter 4 - &#039;Down With Childhood&#039;, in &#039;&#039;The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution&#039;&#039; (New York: Bantam Books, 1970).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/8F6A64276692ED9B5B5C1EE7EB9A2AD6 Chapter 4 - &#039;Down With Childhood&#039;, in &#039;&#039;The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution&#039;&#039; (New York: Bantam Books, 1970).]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Dr. Ohad Zehavi discusses Firestone&#039;s philosophy which sees &#039;childhood as hell&#039;, writing that: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;According to Firestone, &amp;quot;sex forms a class division, but so does age. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; Children, according to Firestone, are an oppressed group just like women: ‘children of every class are lower-class, just as women have always been’. This oppression is brought about not only by the vast segregation of children, primarily (but not exclusively) by means of the education system, but also by children’s economic dependency, by their constant subjection to external authority and by their overall disenfranchisement. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; For Firestone both femininity and childhood are fabricated, constructed myths, and since both myths serve as bases for oppressive social regimes they both should – and could – be eradicated. As a result we would no longer recognise a person as man or woman, adult or child, thus ‘clearing the way for a fully “human” condition’&amp;quot;.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Ohad Zehavi&#039;&#039;&#039;, &#039;Becoming-woman, becoming-child: A joint political programme&#039; (pp. 242-243) in &#039;&#039;Feminism and the Politics of Childhood: Friends or Foes?&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Ohad Zehavi, &#039;Becoming-woman, becoming-child: A joint political programme&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[http://library.lol/main/47E131B6508AC06DDBCBF4DC998AAE77 Feminism and the Politics of Childhood: Friends or Foes?]&#039;&#039;, ed. by Rachel Rosen and Katherine Twamley (London: UCL Press, 2018), pp. 241-256.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Wikipedia:Germaine Greer|Germaine Greer]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1975, she wrote of the experience of one of her school friends: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sexual intercourse between grown men and little girls is automatically termed rape under most codes of law. It does not matter whether the child invites it or even whether she seduces the adult; he and he only is guilty of a felony. From the child’s point of view and from the commonsense point of view, there is an enormous difference between intercourse with a willing little girl and the forcible penetration of the small vagina of a terrified child. One woman I know enjoyed sex with her uncle all through her childhood, and never realized that anything was unusual until she went away to school. What disturbed her then was not what her uncle had done but the attitude of her teachers and the school psychiatrist. They assumed that she must have been traumatized and disgusted and therefore in need of very special help. In order to capitulate to their expectation, she began to fake symptoms she did not feel, until at length she began to feel truly guilty for not having felt guilty. She ended up judging herself quite harshly for this innate lechery&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Germaine Greer&#039;&#039;&#039;, [https://id.annas-archive.org/md5/9f290ff3e162eb802847c462e7e022a3 &#039;Seduction is a Four-Letter Word&#039;], in [[LeRoy G. Schultz]], &#039;&#039;Rape Victimology&#039;&#039;, ed. by Shultz (Charles C. Thomas Publishers: Springfield, Illinois, U.S.A. 1975), p. 377.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Also quoted in social worker Thomas D. Oellerich&#039;s scholarship. E.g. Oellerich, Thomas D. (2000), &amp;quot;[https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s12119-000-1027-3 Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman: Politically Incorrect - Scientifically Correct]&amp;quot;, Sexuality and Culture, 4 (2): 67–81&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;A woman of taste is a pederast — boys rather than men.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Germaine Greer&#039;&#039;&#039;, from archived interview (2003).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://web.archive.org/web/20080203035904/http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s946782.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When asked about her book, &#039;&#039;The Beautiful Boy&#039;&#039;,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/books/beautiful.pdf &#039;&#039;The Beautiful Boy&#039;&#039; (London: Thames &amp;amp; Hudson, 2003) - Ipce PDF]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Greer replies:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;It&#039;s part of the joy of life is admiring the beauty of things that are beautiful. What is important to me about the Boy is that once upon a time his beauty was understood and celebrated by people of both sexes. A boy was allowed to dress in very bright colours, he was allowed to show himself off in the street, he dyed his hair, he wore make-up, &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; he wore tight pants and cropped jackets and so on. And the girls looked down from behind their jalousie and talked about the best-looking boys. Now, that&#039;s still evident in rock culture, where a lot of it is just straight sexual display.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[Interviewer]: &#039;&#039;You said that one of the things that attracts you about boys was &amp;quot;semen that runs like tap water.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[Greer]: &#039;&#039;That&#039;s not such a bad idea, is it girls? &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; I mean, the recharge time is remarkably short, which is a good thing. If what you want is a high level of excitement&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Greer also defended a UK female teacher, Helen Goddard, who had a [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|lesbian affair]] instigated by a 15-year old female student at her school. She wrote: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;So how old was she? How old was he? I don’t know and I don’t very much care. I know I’m supposed to care. I’m supposed to think that falling in love with people under the legal age of [[consent]] is evidence of deep perversion and vileness, but I don’t. Young people shouldn’t fall in love, you wish they wouldn’t, and yet they do, very often with someone rather older than they. The results are nearly always catastrophic, whether the love is returned or denied. When an old friend of mine was still a schoolboy, he climbed into the bed of his guardian, who he adored. His appalled guardian threw him out of the house. He swallowed rat-poison. I’m not supposed to talk about Helen Goddard’s victim as her lover. She’s not supposed to be capable of being anybody’s lover. She’s still not 16. She has tried to take the blame, she had admitted that it was she who first kissed Goddard, but it makes no odds. As a 15-year-old she was incapable of consent, let alone of seduction. In Shakespeare’s play of star-crossed love, we are told repeatedly that Juliet is 14. We don’t know how old Romeo is. There’s nothing to say he isn’t 27, like Helen Goddard. Yet it is Juliet who instigates the affair and precipitates the clandestine marriage and its consummation. And as for deceiving one’s parents, you can’t go a wholer hog than Juliet did. In a sane society lovers are protected from mutual self-immolation; in a crazy one they are driven to it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Germaine Greer&#039;&#039;&#039;, in ‘Jazz Lady’s affair was foolish not evil; Falling for a minor is not evidence of perversion or vileness, says Germaine Greer’, &#039;&#039;The Times&#039;&#039; (London), September 23rd, 2009.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Wikipedia:Kate Millett|Kate Millett]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Part of the patriarchal family structure involves the control of the sexual life of children; indeed, the control of children totally. Children &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; have no money which, in a money-economy, is one of the most important sources of their oppression. Certainly, one of children’s essential rights is to express themselves sexually, probably primarily with each other but with adults as well. &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; The problem here is that &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; cross-generational relationships take place in a situation of inequality. Children are in a very precarious position when they enter into relationships with adults, not only in a concrete material sense but emotionally as well, because their personhood is not acknowledged in our society. &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; Of course, these relationships can be non-exploitative and, considering the circumstances, they are probably heroic and very wonderful; but we have to admit they can be exploitative as well&#039;&#039; (p. 83).  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;What is really at issue is children’s rights and not, as it has been formulated up to now, merely the right of sexual access to children. &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; I would like to see a broader movement involving young people who would be making the decisions because it’s their issue and their fight.&#039;&#039; (pp. 84-85).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Kate Millett&#039;&#039;&#039;, Sexual Revolution and the Liberation of Children: An Interview with Kate Millett by Mark Blasius, in &#039;&#039;Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia&#039;&#039;, ed. by Marjan Sax and Sjuul Deckwitz, 2:8 (1992 {1980}), pp. 83-86.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20220319015646/https://www.brongersma.info/images/Paidika8.pdf Kate Millett, Sexual Revolution and the Liberation of Children: An Interview with Kate Millett by Mark Blasius, in &#039;&#039;Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia&#039;&#039;, ed. by Marjan Sax and Sjuul Deckwitz, 2:8 (1992 {1980}), pp. 83-86.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sex itself is presented as a crime to children. It is how adults control children, how they forbid them sexuality &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; Despite the degree of sexual activity that actually goes on among children, I think adults have been all too effective, not only in poisoning sexuality but also in preventing children from understanding or experiencing it.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039; (p. 218). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;[T]&#039;&#039;he rhetoric and practice that surrounds children has abjured them since infancy to chastity. &amp;quot;Don&#039;t touch yourself there, that&#039;s nasty.&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; here is a little person who has been told that one whole section of the body has a crime attached to it. Imagine, &amp;quot;Never, never look at your left hand.&amp;quot; It seems silly to children, of course, but power and force is conveyed by the phrase, &amp;quot;that&#039;s awful,&amp;quot; principally because it is not explained. And the explanation that &amp;quot;it&#039;s dirty&amp;quot;? Well, thinks the child, obviously it isn&#039;t; I&#039;ve taken a bath. What do they mean, it&#039;s dirty? So the taboo, because of its irrationality and mysterious quality, is yet more harmful. It attacks the whole system of mental confidence and reason itself.&#039;&#039; (p. 219).&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Parental policing of young females is the one great, unexamined oppression, not only in their lives but in our own as adult women. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; Considering its possibilities, sexuality has been very effectively policed. Control works in stopping the behavior; where it doesn&#039;t work, it succeeds still because there is so much guilt; so much shame for whatever sexual activity does take place; so much fear of discovery that when sexually active children are discovered, squelched, and separated, control succeeds.&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; Since sexuality was forbidden knowledge, contraception is also forbidden, unfortunately; the culprits can become victims &#039;&#039;[of unwanted pregnancy]&#039;&#039; as well. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; Adults create this pool of ignorance - and that is what it is: ignorance forced upon a group of young people, not innocence.&#039;&#039; (p. 220).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Intergenerational sex could perhaps in the future be a wonderful opportunity for understanding between human beings. But conditions between adults and children preclude any sexual relationship that is not in some sense exploitative. This is not actually the fault of the adults involved, but of the entire social structure. To succeed, a relationship needs an egalitarian space and a balance between the two partners which it cannot by virtue of society have.” &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; It is difficult therefore to imagine the sexual emancipation of children without coming to understand how necessary are other forms of emancipation as well, all parts of progressive social change in years to come. That children have autonomy - that they do not belong to their biological parents, that they have a right to money, to a choice in where they live, that they are not property, that they are not slaves, that they belong to themselves - is a most revolutionary idea.&#039;&#039; (pp. 222-223).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Kate Millett&#039;&#039;&#039;, Beyond Politics? Children and Sexuality, in &#039;&#039;Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality&#039;&#039;, ed. by Carole S. Vance, 2nd edn., (London: Routledge &amp;amp; Kegan Paul, 1992 {1984}), pp. 217–224.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/2CD4B6F851238A755DF8658453624FF0 Kate Millett, Beyond Politics? Children and Sexuality, in &#039;&#039;Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality&#039;&#039;, ed. by Carole S. Vance, 2nd edn., (London: Routledge &amp;amp; Kegan Paul, 1992 {1984}), pp. 217–224.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Wikipedia:Andrea Dworkin|Andrea Dworkin]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Editors: Most surprisingly, as MAP activist [[Roger Moody]] pointed out (1986), Dworkin made supportive statements in her 1st published book &#039;&#039;Woman Hating&#039;&#039; (1974), in which she also supports the practice of incest and bestiality&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Woman-Hating-A-Radical-Look-at-Sexuality-1974.pdf &#039;&#039;&#039;Andrea Dworkin&#039;&#039;&#039;, (1974). &#039;&#039;Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality&#039;&#039; (E.P. Dutton: Boston, Massachusetts)]. For example, Dworkin wrote: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The parent-child relationship is primarily erotic because all human relationships are primarily erotic. The incest taboo is a particularized form of repression, one which functions as the bulwark of all the other repressions. The incest taboo ensures that however free we become, we never become genuinely free. The incest taboo, because it denies us essential fulfillment with the parents whom we love with our primary energy, forces us to internalize those parents and constantly seek them, or seek to negate them, in the minds, bodies, and hearts of other humans who are not our parents and never will be.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;The incest taboo does the worst work of the culture: it teaches us the mechanisms o f repressing and internalizing erotic feeling — it forces us to develop those mechanisms in the first place; it forces us to particularize sexual feeling, so that it congeals into a need for a particular sexual “object” ; it demands that we place the nuclear family above the human family. The destruction o f the incest taboo is essential to the development of cooperative human community based on the free-flow of natural androgynous eroticism.&amp;quot; (p. 189).&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;In contemporary society relationships between people and other animals often reflect the sadomasochistic complexion of human relationship. Animals in our culture are often badly abused, the objects of violence and cruelty, the foil of repressed and therefore very dangerous human sexuality. Some animals, like horses and big dogs, become surrogate cocks, symbols of ideal macho virility. Needless to say, in androgynous community, human and other-animal relationships would become more explicitly erotic, and that eroticism would not degenerate into abuse.&amp;quot; (p. 188).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; in a future &amp;quot;androgynous&amp;quot; society, before turning militantly against age-disparate eroticism in later years. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;As for children, they too are erotic beings, closer to androgyny than the adults who oppress them. Children are fully capable of participating in community, and have every right to live out their own erotic impulses. In androgynous community, those impulses would retain a high degree of non-specificity and would no doubt show the rest of us the way into sexual self-realization. The distinctions between “children” and “adults,” and the social institutions which enforce those distinctions, would disappear as androgynous community develops.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Andrea Dworkin&#039;&#039;&#039;, (1974). &#039;&#039;Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality&#039;&#039; (E.P. Dutton: Boston, Massachusetts), p. 192.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Beatrice_Faust|Beatrice Faust]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Children cannot be wholly self-determining as long as factors like parental unemployment, poverty, or homelessness force them into prostitution or pornography. And they cannot exercise satisfactory self-determination without adequate sex education. Women and homosexuals, as well as children and child-lovers, are oppressed by the view that procreational sex is the only erotic activity that rates the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; But this view cannot survive the economic pressure for fewer children and the technocracy&#039;s demand for less, but better educated workers.&#039;&#039; (p. 114). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Beatrice Faust&#039;&#039;&#039;, (1986). &#039;The paedophiles&#039;, in [[The_Betrayal_of_Youth_(Book)|&#039;&#039;The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People&#039;&#039;]], ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London), pp. 107-115.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://library.lol/main/D3E65600BCD53F898EE99AEBF6BCBC24 Faust, B. (1986). &#039;The paedophiles&#039;, in &#039;&#039;The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People&#039;&#039;, Edited by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London), pp. 107-115.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039; &#039;&#039;[T]&#039;&#039;he so-called Sexual Revolution, and the emergence of the Women&#039;s Liberation Movement from the New Left, is a serendipitous experiment: women were given strong permissions to enjoy sex with the same frequency and on the same terms as men, and they rejected the notion, retreating into lesbianism, radical celibacy, puritanism and traditionally feminine models of sex. Even at the outset of the so-called sexual revolution, boys began intercourse earlier than girls and found sexual activity more satisfying &#039;&#039;[…]&#039;&#039; Girls mature physically before boys but boys seek sexual knowledge and experience earlier and more actively than girls (cruising). This being so, it seems that a uniform age of consent law for both sexes and/or an age of consent law that does not allow for the possibility of a consensual relationship will be discriminatory against boys and damaging for some children of both sexes. The Netherlands provides a model that avoids this risk.&#039;&#039; (p. 83). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Beatrice Faust&#039;&#039;&#039;, (1995). &amp;quot;Child sexuality and age of consent laws: The Netherlands model.&amp;quot; Australasian Gay and Lesbian Law Journal, 5, pp. 78-85.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[[Media:(1995) Faust - Child Sexuality and AOC - The Netherlands Model.pdf|Beatrice Faust, (1995). &amp;quot;Child sexuality and age of consent laws: The Netherlands model.&amp;quot; Australasian Gay and Lesbian Law Journal, 5, pp. 78-85.]]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
====[[Stevi Jackson]]====&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[A] &#039;&#039;great deal of effort is spent in keeping children childish. Not being encouraged towards independence, they remain dependent; unused to looking after themselves, they stay vulnerable; having their smallest needs fulfilled by adults, they are often unable to perform simple tasks well within their capabilities. Children are frequently sent to school unable to dress themselves at an age when, in other societies and in earlier days of our own, they would be beginning to make a real contribution to the life and work of their community. If a child expresses interest in adult affairs or engages in adult pursuits it is thought unusual, even extraordinary. Children who behave like adults are regarded as at best amusing and at worst thoroughly obnoxious. If we were not so interested in nurturing immaturity, would the word &#039;precocious&#039; have become an insult?&#039;&#039; (p. 27). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The activities and interests of children in other societies may contrast sharply with our ideas of what is natural or appropriate for them. We would find it strange for a boy of six or seven to be preoccupied with financial provision for his marriage, yet this is considered natural among the Tallensi. We would not expect a child of this age to be making a real contribution to the economic survival of the community, yet this is commonplace in many simpler societies. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; It is unusual for five-year-olds in our society to be fully aware of the facts of human sex and reproduction, but elsewhere this is normal.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Despite all the different forms of childhood that exist throughout the world, our society might be singled out as distinctly odd&#039;&#039;  (p. 29). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] &#039;&#039;Given the connections between the status of women and children, the ideas of the women&#039;s liberation movement should help us to raise questions about the status of children and the adult power wielded over them, and to consider the possibility of redefining their sexuality. It is because we keep children dependent, vulnerable and asexual that women come to share these qualities. It is because only the male sex learns to break free from these bonds that men become more autonomous than women. It is because male autonomy is associated with power and aggression that men maintain control over women and that the need is created to &#039;protect&#039; women and children. We need to question whether our apparent concern for children, our protectiveness I towards them, is just a subtle form of oppression, as it is with women.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] &#039;&#039;I will now commit the final heresy by stating clearly my belief that we do more harm than good in enforcing sexual ignorance on children. In attempting to protect children from sex we expose them to danger, in trying to preserve their innocence we expose them to guilt. In keeping both sexes asexual, and then training them to become sexual in different ways, we perpetuate sexual inequality, exploitation and oppression.&#039;&#039; (p. 180). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Stevi Jackson&#039;&#039;&#039;. &#039;&#039;Childhood and Sexuality&#039;&#039; (Basil Blackwell: Oxford, 1982).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/File:1982_Jackson_Childhood_and_Sexuality.pdf Childhood and Sexuality] (click for archived PDF)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Resisting Anti-Porn Feminism===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Some feminist thought supportive of intergenerational rights came during what anthropologist [[Gayle Rubin]] called &amp;quot;The Feminist Sex Wars,&amp;quot; where sex-positive feminists (e.g. Strossen&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/1073402 Strossen 1993]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;,; Echols&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.2307/466453 Echols, 1983]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) resisted attempts to legally define all pornography as tantamount to rape (see [[Debate_Guide:_Porn_is_the_theory,_rape_is_its_practise|&amp;quot;Porn is the theory, rape is its practise&amp;quot;]] and West&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/828376 West, 1987]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;; Linz et al.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/828377 Linz, 1987]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;; Schauer&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/828378 Schauer, 1987]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://openyls.law.yale.edu/handle/20.500.13051/7029 Fischel, 2010]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) and prohibit/criminalize sex work (such feminists are now called &amp;quot;SWERFs&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/SWERF)  SWERF - Wiktionary]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) under the banner of &amp;quot;feminism.&amp;quot; Some relevant readings below:   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Nettie Pollard, &#039;The Small Matter of Children,&#039; in &#039;&#039;Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism&#039;&#039;, ed. by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol (Boulder, Colorado: Pluto Press, 1993), pp. 105-111.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism&#039;&#039;, ed. by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol (Boulder, Colorado: Pluto Press, 1993). [[https://www.jstor.org/stable/jj.38401871.21 Jstor] link]. [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/38138de0c0ef229d5cd9075b1661275a Annas Archive PDF] link].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Brenda Cossman, Shannon Bell, Lise Gotell, Becki Ross, &#039;&#039;Bad Attitude/s on Trial: Pornography, Feminism, and the Butler Decision&#039;&#039; (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1997). [[Shannon Bell]]&#039;s chapter, &#039;&#039;The image cannot be seen&#039;&#039;, includes her interview with [[Matthew McGowan]], a Canadian hustler and poet who stood trial for having filmed himself and 2 male friends who were 14-years-old and thus had reached the national [[age of consent]] at the time, engaging in [[Research:_Secondary_Harm#Self-appraisal_of_abuse,_Self-Perception_and_&amp;quot;Consent&amp;quot;|mutually willing (consensual)]] vanilla sex the year prior, when McGowan was 22 years-old. Canadian law changed to make depictions of sexual activity involving people who appear to be under 18 illegal, meaning that their sex was legal but filming was not. In her chapter, Bell interprets Canada&#039;s then-recent change in porn law through the lens of moral panic, and criticizes the obfuscation, denial and silencing of young people&#039;s voices by &#039;expert&#039; truth claims:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The hysteria mounts the closer the sexual activity gets to or can be portrayed as getting to children. Perhaps that is why &#039;seventeen year olds at the height of their sexual powers are called children&#039; (CBC, 1994, 38) in the London porn panic. The media played up the hysteria [...]&lt;br /&gt;
As the research coordinator at the London Family Court Clinic explains: &#039;victim impact statements are written by clinicians who have a lot of experience in child victimization.&#039; There is &#039;the victim&#039;s version of the story&#039; and &#039;what we think it means&#039; (Ibid., 40)&#039;&#039; (p. 207, p. 211).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.google.at/books/edition/Bad_Attitude_s_on_Trial/KfTtZl-hrBsC?hl=de&amp;amp;gbpv=1&amp;amp;dq=Bad+Attitude%5Cs+on+Trial:+Pornography,+Feminism+and+the+Butler+Decision&amp;amp;pg=PA3&amp;amp;printsec=frontcover Cossman, 1997]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Contemporary 3rd/4th Wave Feminism===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;&#039;[[Judith Butler]]&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039; &#039;&#039;[T]&#039;&#039;o understand the violation that incest can be—and also to distinguish between those occasions of incest that are violation and those that are not—it is unnecessary to figure the body of the child exclusively as a surface imposed upon from the outside. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; So I keep adding this qualification: “when incest is a violation,” suggesting that I think that there may be occasions in which it is not. Why would I talk that way? Well, I do think that there are probably forms of incest that are not necessarily traumatic or which gain their traumatic character by virtue of the consciousness of social shame that they produce. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;[T]&#039;&#039;he very existence of a taboo against incest presumes that a family structure is already there, for how else would one understand the prohibition on sexual relations with members of one’s own family without a prior conception of family?&#039;&#039; [Explanation&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;One commentator on heretictoc.com wrote: “Under what exact conditions is incest “not necessarily traumatic”?”&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Butler elaborates on the following pages that the concept of “incest” can only exist as long as there’s the concept of the white heterosexual middle-class family. After all, without the idea of a “family” what does incest even mean? Therefore, incest is, according to Butler, not inherently traumatic.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or to give a concrete example that I believe most people would agree upon is not traumatic, let’s think of two siblings who are infertile and who have sex with each other but neither they themselves nor anyone else is aware that they are indeed relatives. This is what Butler means by “not necessarily traumatic”.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Judith Butler&#039;&#039;&#039;, &#039;Quandaries of the Incest Taboo&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Undoing Gender&#039;&#039; (Routledge: New York, 2004), pp. 152-161 (quoting pp. 155-157).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;At what age is consent to sexual relations permissible? Indeed, the views on this matter are quite diverse, and they differ according to country and gender, according to whether the law seeks to end sexual trafficking, whether the law is acknowledging customs regarding child brides, and whether the kind of sex is permissible or not: So age of consent laws vary according to whether sexual practice is deemed heterosexual or homosexual, or within marriage or before marriage. In most cases, sexuality is presumed by such legal codes to be heterosexual, so the lack of a differential regulation between straight and not straight sex is less a sign of equal treatment, than of the unthinkability of non-heterosexual law within the legal codes regulating sexuality — after all, even prohibiting homosexual sex is a way of acknowledging that it exists.&#039;&#039; (p. 5).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;We are used to hearing that there are [[consent]]ing adults and then there are those who are incompetent to consent. But perhaps incompetence is part of the very process of &amp;quot;yes&amp;quot;-saying. We are not competent to know all the future consequences of the sexual relations to which we say &amp;quot;yes,&amp;quot; or to which we willingly or ambivalently acquiesce. We are never fully active, knowing, and competently predictive at such moments. We open, sometimes in spite of ourselves, to a future we cannot fully control, even though we can steer and direct and try to give it shape in one way or another to the best or our abilities. Perhaps the opposite of the subject of consent is not the subject who is too young or too inexperienced or suffering incompetence. Although there are cases where that is legally right, to be sure, we have to remember that something of childhood persists in adult sexuality, making us more vulnerable or less knowing than we might like, that a certain incompetence pervades our efforts to predict in advance how things will go, and that even a certain inexperience is there at the outset of sexual encounter and in its midst. The juridical &#039;&#039;[legal]&#039;&#039; subject of [[consent]] rules out the humility of unknowingness without which we cannot really understand sexuality. We can, as the former Antioch College rules of sexual conduct tried to do, make every sexual act discussable between two people in advance and a settled matter of consent before embarking on any touch. At such moments, the law has pervaded sexual encounter; the law has drenched our discourse. We expect knowingness precisely at those moments when unknowingness is inseparable from sexuality itself. The law then functions as a defense against the unknown, and tell me: who would have sex if it were really known in advance exactly what it would be like?&#039;&#039; (pp. 24-25).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Judith Butler&#039;&#039;&#039;. (2011). &#039;Sexual Consent: Some Thoughts on Psychoanalysis and Law&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Columbia Journal of Gender and Law&#039;&#039;, Vol. 21 No. 2, pp. 3-27.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[[File:Judith_Butler_-_2011_-_Sexual_Consent_-_Psychoanalysis_and_Law.pdf|Archived PDF of Sexual Consent: Some Thoughts on Psychoanalysis and Law]] (internal link). This paper is based on a paper presented in 2011, which was filmed and has been archived [https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/10j9 here] and [https://vimeo.com/22547545 here].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other feminist writers of interest are listed below:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://library.lol/main/99099C4003BC144DCA222C5D34D84A6C Kids Club Anthology #2 - &#039;&#039;She said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminist Speak Out about Youthlove&#039;&#039;] - This anthology (2019) collects material on sexual attraction to youth, youth sexuality, age-gap relationships, and the age of consent written by young gay people, women, lesbians, and feminist, from the late 70s to the mid-90s.&lt;br /&gt;
*Danielle Egan, Gail Hawkes, and Emma Renold - these 3 contemporary feminists tend to co-author together, criticizing panic discourses over the [[sexualization]] of young people that neglect to take account of young people&#039;s voices and agency&lt;br /&gt;
*Children, Sexuality and Sexualization, ed. by Emma Renold et al., (Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan, 2015).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://archive.org/details/renold-sexualization Children, Sexuality and Sexualization]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*Danielle Egan, Becoming Sexual: A Critical Appraisal of the Sexualization of Girls (Cambridge: Polity Press, 2013) (Book)&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=15C2F2D9BE951828DE35ADF89A61552B Becoming Sexual (Book) on libgen]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
*Danielle Egan and Gail L. Hawkes, ‘Endangered Girls and Incendiary Objects: Unpacking the Discourse on Sexualization’, in Sexuality and Culture, 12 (2008), 291–311.&lt;br /&gt;
*Gail Hawkes and Danielle Egan, ‘Landscapes of Erotophobia: The Sexual(ized) Child in The Postmodern Anglophone West’, in Sexuality and Culture, 12 (2008), 193–203.&lt;br /&gt;
*Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes, ‘The problem with protection: Or, why we need to move towards recognition and the sexual agency of children’, in Continuum, 23:3 (2009), 289-400.&lt;br /&gt;
*Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes, [https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/09540253.2012.666232 &amp;quot;Sexuality, youth and the perils of endangered innocence: how history can help us get past the panic&amp;quot;], in Gender and Education, 24(3) (2012), 269–284.&lt;br /&gt;
*Emma Renold and Jessica Ringrose, ‘Schizoid Subjectivities? Re- theorizing Teen-Girls’ Sexual Cultures in an Era of ‘Sexualization,’ in Journal of Sociology, 47:4 (2011), 389–409.&lt;br /&gt;
*Emma Renold and Jessica Ringrose, ‘Feminisms re-figuring ‘sexualization’, sexuality and ‘the girl’, in Feminist Theory, 14:3 (2013), 247-254.&lt;br /&gt;
*Deborah L. Tolman, ‘Doing Desire: Adolescent Girls’ Struggles for/with Sexuality’, in Gender and Society, 8:3 (1994), 324–342.&lt;br /&gt;
*Laina Y. Bay-Cheng and Amanda E. Lewis, &#039;Our “Ideal Girl”: Prescriptions of Female Adolescent Sexuality in a Feminist Mentorship Program&#039;, in Affilia: Journal of Women and Social Work, 21:1 (2006), 71-83.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://doi.org/10.1177/0886109905283137&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*Nancy Whittier, &#039;&#039;The Politics of Child Sexual Abuse: Emotion, Social Movements, and the State&#039;&#039; (Oxford University Press, 2011).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Child-Sexual-Abuse-Movements/dp/0199783314 Nancy Whittier, &#039;&#039;The Politics of Child Sexual Abuse: Emotion, Social Movements, and the State&#039;&#039; (Oxford University Press, 2011).]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
*Joseph J. Fischel, &#039;Catharine MacKinnon’s Wayward Children&#039;, in &#039;&#039;differences&#039;&#039;, 30:1 (2019), pp. 34-54.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1215/10407391-7481204 Joseph J. Fischel, &#039;Catharine MacKinnon’s Wayward Children&#039;, in &#039;&#039;differences&#039;&#039;, 30:1 (2019), pp. 34-54.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
*Feona Attwood, ‘Sluts and Riot Grrrls: Female Identity and Sexual Agency’, in Journal of Gender Studies, 16:3 (2007), 233–247.&lt;br /&gt;
*Kari Lerum and Shari L. Dworkin, ‘Sexual Agency is not a Problem of Neoliberalism: Feminism, Sexual Justice, and the Carceral Turn’, in Sex Roles, 73 (2015), 311-319.&lt;br /&gt;
*Lynne M. Phillips, ‘Recasting Consent: Agency and Victimization in Adult-Teen Relationships’, in &#039;&#039;New Versions of Victims: Feminists Struggle with the Concept&#039;&#039;, ed. by Sharon Lamb (New York: New York University Press, 1999), pp. 82-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/399EA11DCC241D1A5275970C15BDFB2C New Versions of Victims]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*Michelle Fine, Sexuality, Schooling, and Adolescent Females: The Missing Discourse of Desire, in Harvard Educational Review, 58:1 (1988), 29–54&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://doi.org/10.17763/haer.58.1.u0468k1v2n2n8242&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;; Cf. Fine, X. Desire: The Morning (and 15 years) After, in Feminism &amp;amp; Psychology, 15:1 (2005), 54-60.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://doi.org/10.1177/0959353505049708&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*Lynda Marin, Mother and Child: The Erotic Bond, in &#039;&#039;Mother&#039;s Journeys: Feminists Write about Mothering&#039;&#039;, ed. by Maureen T. Reddy, Martha Roth, Amy Sheldon, (Spinsters Ink, Minneapolis, 1994), pp. 9-21.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/MaCTEB.html&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
* [[Marjan Sax]] and Sjuul Deckwitz, &#039;You Learn Better on An Old Bicycle: Erotic and Sexual Relations Between Women and Minors&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[[Paidika]]: The Journal of Paedophilia&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s lssue, pp. 2-13. [Newgon: Marjan Sax is listed as a &amp;quot;feminst sex activist, political scientist, and writer&amp;quot;].&lt;br /&gt;
* Jo Bridgeman and Daniel Monk, “Introduction: Reflections on the Relationship between Feminism and Child Law,” in &#039;&#039;Feminist Perspectives on Child Law&#039;&#039;, ed. Jo Bridgeman and Daniel Monk (London: Cavendish, 2000).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/676071FAB671AE21153A9D87680FFC37 Feminist Perspectives on Child Law PDF]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Carol Tavris|Carol Tavris]], Beware the Incest-Survivor Machine, in the &#039;&#039;New York Times&#039;&#039; (1993)&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://web.archive.org/web/20150419234012/https://www.nytimes.com/1993/01/03/books/beware-the-incest-survivor-machine.html?pagewanted=1&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;; Tavris, The uproar over sexual abuse research and its findings, in &#039;&#039;Society&#039;&#039; (2000).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00-018_uproar.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; [Responds to the [[Rind_et_al|Rind et al controversy]]].&lt;br /&gt;
*Yasmin Nair,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://yasminnair.com/about-2/ Yasmin Nair: About]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; feminist/queer activist and author, co-edited &#039;&#039;Against Equality&#039;&#039; &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://library.lol/main/DD4D1C4C3CE07971C2DE09315132F098 Against Equality]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; (2014), including contributions from early MAP/Youth Rights advocates including Bill Andriette and John P. De Cecco. On her personal website, Nair published relevant articles, including: Can We Talk?: Censorship, Pedophilia, and Panic, in &#039;&#039;Wind City Times&#039;&#039; (2005).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://yasminnair.com/can-we-talk-censorship-pedophilia-and-panic-16-november-2005/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;; From Queer To Gay: The Rise and Fall of Milo &amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;[&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;[[Milo Yiannopoulos|Yiannopoulos]]&amp;lt;nowiki&amp;gt;]&amp;lt;/nowiki&amp;gt;, self-published (2017)&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://yasminnair.com/from-queer-to-gay-the-rise-and-fall-of-milo/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. In &#039;&#039;Adopting Difference: Race, Sex, and the Archaeology of Power in the Farrow-Allen Case&#039;&#039; (published in 2014, reproduced online in 2020)&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://yasminnair.com/adopting-difference-race-sex-and-the-archaeology-of-power-in-the-farrow-allen-case-3/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, Nair argued that critics tended to avoid or downplay the power Mia Farrow wielded over Woody Allen and their children. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For Nair, Mia Farrow:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;successfully painted herself as a powerless woman wounded by a powerful and wealthy man. Allen is certainly wealthy and powerful, but Farrow has a lineage in Hollywood that is much older than his, and possesses tremendous political and cultural influence. Much of her power has manifested in the ways that she has managed to even change the law to enable her to satisfy her urge to adopt.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Commentary==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[BoyChat]] contributor, &#039;&#039;&#039;Anacreon&#039;&#039;&#039;:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Historically, from what I&#039;ve read I get the impression that the earliest modern feminism, which got started about two hundred years ago on the heels of the French Revolution, was probably a liberating idea. The early Romantics who espoused it, for instance the poet Percy Shelley and his wife Mary, associated it with free love and equality of the sexes within the context of a generally emancipated state of society. These people were wild radicals, the hippies of their day, and so alienated from mainstream society that they felt compelled to leave their native England.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Later on something horrible happened. I suspect it was probably Victorianism. Decades after the high Romantic period, when feminism got started again in the late nineteenth century following a long hiatus, it emerged as a deeply bourgeois movement in the worst sense of that term. It was intensely puritanical, and oriented toward controlling male behavior. It became associated with the &amp;quot;temperance&amp;quot; movement and suppression of &amp;quot;vice,&amp;quot; meaning chiefly prostitution. In the United States it involved itself in the ultimately successful push for Prohibition, a disaster that brought terrible troubles with organized crime that plague us to this day.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;So I guess you could say that feminism went bad when it became respectable. In this sense it resembles the gay movement, which from the viewpoint of boylovers joined the oppressor when it opted for assimilation and so decided to eject undesirables. Contemporary feminism seems to me to be entirely modeled on the second, Victorian version of itself, not at all on the first. Modern feminists are interested in domination rather than in freedom, obsessed with control through the infantilization of everyone in sight, and fanatically eager to wield the gelding knife. So as you rightly observe their movement operates generally as a viciously regressive force, often the unacknowledged ally of rabid fundamentalism.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;http://boychat.org/messages/1147733.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
U.S. historian &#039;&#039;&#039;Beryl Satter&#039;&#039;&#039;:&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704895 Satter, 2003&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;it is undeniable that feminists and therapists with feminist sympathies elaborated and promoted the sexual abuse paradigm.&amp;quot; (p. 426). American clinical psychologist [[Wikipedia:Jan Haaken|Janice Haaken]], Satter explains, &amp;quot;interprets sexual abuse accusations as a complex phenomenon encompassing women&#039;s desire to speak the hidden truths of their lives and express rage at a broad range of &amp;quot;boundary violations&amp;quot; that are the lot of most women. According to Haaken, sexual abuse accusations symbolize women&#039;s rebellion against their fathers and against expectations that they should remain loyal to their families. These accusations express forbidden emotional and sexual fantasies and might also express conflicts between women that are repressed in some feminist circles.&#039;&#039; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similar to Richard Beck (see Breland, 2019&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/07/why-are-right-wing-conspiracies-so-obsessed-with-pedophilia/ Breland, 2009]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;), Satter argues that the sexual abuse paradigmn rose to prominence during the 1980s due to its use across the political spectrum in a time of economic upheaval, of which warring feminist factions were only one force of many: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Historically, crusades to &amp;quot;save the children&amp;quot; emerge at the moment when progressive movements are beginning to falter. This fits the 1980s context. As social programs serving families were severely reduced, sexual abuse narratives were one way to speak about family pain. Ultimately, the crusades against child abuse gained support from all sides: from feminists &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; and liberals &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039;; conservatives anxious about sexual hedonism and evangelical Christians anxious about sexual sin; therapists, attorneys, and criminologists who sought to expand their professional authority; a sensation-hungry media seeking new sexual narratives; and politicians seeking a cause sure to attract support. In addition, Reagan and Bush officials promoted the idea that the greatest threat to American children was pornography rather than poverty. They funded reports on child abuse and widely disseminated the most extreme claims about the sexual victimization of children.&#039;&#039; (p. 452).&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Intergenerational Lesbianism]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Radical feminism|Radical feminism]] - Wikipedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Sex-positive feminism|Sex-positive feminism]] - Wikipedia.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Masculism]]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Child Advocacy]][[Category:Sociological Theory]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: Academic]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:Prostitution]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34654</id>
		<title>Intergenerational Lesbianism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34654"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:18:48Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Intergenerational Lesbianism&#039;&#039;&#039;, sometimes called &#039;&#039;&#039;Korephilia&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Etymology and History==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;. The word &#039;&#039;lesbian&#039;&#039; itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of &#039;&#039;Lesbos&#039;&#039;, where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] &#039;&#039;NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;, Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in &#039;&#039;Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 &#039;&#039;Sappho: The Tenth Muse&#039;&#039;] (author unknown).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, &amp;quot;How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sappho, if you will not get up&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;and let us look at you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I shall never love you again&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Get up, unleash your suppleness&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;lift off your Chian nightdress&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] One does not berate one&#039;s teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frankel argued that &amp;quot;Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]&amp;quot;. She ends with Sappho&#039;s blessing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gods bless you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;May you sleep then&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;On some tender&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;girl friend&#039;s breast.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. &amp;quot;The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could&amp;quot; from &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]],&amp;quot; recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl&#039;s relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|&#039;&#039;Blue Is the Warmest Colour&#039;&#039;]], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and &#039;&#039;Body Politic&#039;&#039; writer Chris Bearchell,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot; A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on &amp;quot;Women/Girl Love&amp;quot; - Or, Lesbians Do &amp;quot;Do It&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O&#039;Carroll, &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039; (1980)].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a &#039;phase&#039;. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the &#039;[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]&#039;, and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. &#039;&#039;The New Yorker&#039;&#039;, September 11, 2023].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are &amp;quot;more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, &amp;quot;It’s possible,&amp;quot; Millett explained, &amp;quot;that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Writing in Toronto&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed &#039;&#039;[[The Age Taboo]]&#039;&#039; (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|&#039;&#039;The Man they Called a Monster&#039;&#039;]] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was &amp;quot;impressed by the lucidity&amp;quot; of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;s arguments, &amp;quot;by his politeness, courage, and stamina&amp;quot; after having invited and heard him speak at a &#039;Gay Cambridge&#039; event, and lamented the &amp;quot;silenced women&amp;quot; afraid of speaking out after &amp;quot;the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, No. 84 (June, 1982).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Donald recalls &amp;quot;a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences.&amp;quot; She states that &amp;quot;Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend,&amp;quot; and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend&#039;s mother at 8.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the &amp;quot;paedosexual taboo,&amp;quot; might be &amp;quot;felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand.&amp;quot; Because of their special closeness [to young people],&amp;quot; Knopf argued, &amp;quot;the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men&amp;quot; (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that &amp;quot;Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (&#039;&#039;New Statesman&#039;&#039;, 16 Sept, 1977).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, Berlin&#039;s female intergenerational rights organization (&amp;quot;Kanalratten&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;Sewer Rats&amp;quot;) - which had published a manifesto&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, &amp;quot;no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl,&amp;quot; could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the &amp;quot;love between adults and children&amp;quot;, and said she wanted &amp;quot;to do everything to change such laws.&amp;quot; After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP&#039;s campaign]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039; - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer&#039;s will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I&#039;ve heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Many editions available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(commonly cited but rarely used symbol)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978. Reprint from &#039;&#039;Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Research literature== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Amanda H. Littauer, &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1 (2020), 95-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion E.P. de Ras, &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934&#039;&#039; (Routledge, 2008).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934&#039;&#039;] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 &#039;&#039;The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island&#039;&#039;], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls&#039; movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls&#039; groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the &amp;quot;infamous&amp;quot; chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &amp;quot;The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039; 5:1 (1994), 90–114.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marina Knopf, &amp;quot;Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &#039;&#039;Interview&#039;&#039; in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, &#039;Female Paedophilia&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]&#039;&#039; (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;International Journal of Greek Love&#039;&#039;, Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jenn McCollum, &amp;quot;The Romance of Henry James&#039;s Female Pedophile, in  &#039;&#039;MP: An Online Feminist Journal&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pederasty]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Personal perspectives===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly&#039;s testimony]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Gay]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34653</id>
		<title>Intergenerational Lesbianism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34653"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:18:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Intergenerational Lesbianism&#039;&#039;&#039;, sometimes called &#039;&#039;&#039;Korephilia&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Etymology and History==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;. The word &#039;&#039;lesbian&#039;&#039; itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of &#039;&#039;Lesbos&#039;&#039;, where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] &#039;&#039;NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;, Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in &#039;&#039;Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 &#039;&#039;Sappho: The Tenth Muse&#039;&#039;] (author unknown).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, &amp;quot;How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sappho, if you will not get up&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;and let us look at you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I shall never love you again&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Get up, unleash your suppleness&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;lift off your Chian nightdress&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] One does not berate one&#039;s teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frankel argued that &amp;quot;Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]&amp;quot;. She ends with Sappho&#039;s blessing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gods bless you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;May you sleep then&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;On some tender&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;girl friend&#039;s breast.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. &amp;quot;The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could&amp;quot; from &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]],&amp;quot; recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl&#039;s relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|&#039;&#039;Blue Is the Warmest Colour&#039;&#039;]], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and &#039;&#039;Body Politic&#039;&#039; writer Chris Bearchell,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot; A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on &amp;quot;Women/Girl Love&amp;quot; - Or, Lesbians Do &amp;quot;Do It&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O&#039;Carroll, &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039; (1980)].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a &#039;phase&#039;. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the &#039;[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]&#039;, and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. &#039;&#039;The New Yorker&#039;&#039;, September 11, 2023].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are &amp;quot;more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, &amp;quot;It’s possible,&amp;quot; Millett explained, &amp;quot;that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Writing in Toronto&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed &#039;&#039;[[The Age Taboo]]&#039;&#039; (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|&#039;&#039;The Man they Called a Monster&#039;&#039;]] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was &amp;quot;impressed by the lucidity&amp;quot; of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;s arguments, &amp;quot;by his politeness, courage, and stamina&amp;quot; after having invited and heard him speak at a &#039;Gay Cambridge&#039; event, and lamented the &amp;quot;silenced women&amp;quot; afraid of speaking out after &amp;quot;the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, No. 84 (June, 1982).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Donald recalls &amp;quot;a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences.&amp;quot; She states that &amp;quot;Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend,&amp;quot; and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend&#039;s mother at 8.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the &amp;quot;paedosexual taboo,&amp;quot; might be &amp;quot;felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand.&amp;quot; Because of their special closeness [to young people],&amp;quot; Knopf argued, &amp;quot;the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men&amp;quot; (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that &amp;quot;Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (&#039;&#039;New Statesman&#039;&#039;, 16 Sept, 1977).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, Berlin&#039;s female intergenerational rights organization (&amp;quot;Kanalratten&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;Sewer Rats&amp;quot;) - which had published a manifesto&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, &amp;quot;no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl,&amp;quot; could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the &amp;quot;love between adults and children&amp;quot;, and said she wanted &amp;quot;to do everything to change such laws.&amp;quot; After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP&#039;s campaign]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039; - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer&#039;s will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I&#039;ve heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Many editions available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(commonly cited but rarely used symbol)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978. Reprint from &#039;&#039;Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Research literature== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Amanda H. Littauer, &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1 (2020), 95-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion E.P. de Ras, &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934&#039;&#039; (Routledge, 2008).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934&#039;&#039;] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 &#039;&#039;The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island&#039;&#039;], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls&#039; movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls&#039; groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the &amp;quot;infamous&amp;quot; chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &amp;quot;The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039; 5:1 (1994), 90–114.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marina Knopf, &amp;quot;Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &#039;&#039;Interview&#039;&#039; in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, &#039;Female Paedophilia&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]&#039;&#039; (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;International Journal of Greek Love&#039;&#039;, Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jenn McCollum, &amp;quot;The Romance of Henry James&#039;s Female Pedophile, in  &#039;&#039;MP: An Online Feminist Journal&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pederasty]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Personal perspectives===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly&#039;s testimony]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Gay]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34652</id>
		<title>Intergenerational Lesbianism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Intergenerational_Lesbianism&amp;diff=34652"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:17:17Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__&#039;&#039;&#039;Intergenerational Lesbianism&#039;&#039;&#039;, sometimes called &#039;&#039;&#039;Korephilia&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Etymology and History==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The word &#039;&#039;korephilia&#039;&#039; comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning &amp;quot;girl&amp;quot; and φιλία philíā meaning &amp;quot;love&amp;quot;. The word &#039;&#039;lesbian&#039;&#039; itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of &#039;&#039;Lesbos&#039;&#039;, where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] &#039;&#039;NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;, Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in &#039;&#039;Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin&#039;&#039;. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 &#039;&#039;Sappho: The Tenth Muse&#039;&#039;] (author unknown).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, &amp;quot;How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Sappho, if you will not get up&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;and let us look at you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I shall never love you again&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Get up, unleash your suppleness&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;lift off your Chian nightdress&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...] One does not berate one&#039;s teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Frankel argued that &amp;quot;Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]&amp;quot;. She ends with Sappho&#039;s blessing:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The gods bless you&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;May you sleep then&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;On some tender&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;girl friend&#039;s breast.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. &amp;quot;The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could&amp;quot; from &amp;quot;[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]],&amp;quot; recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl&#039;s relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|&#039;&#039;Blue Is the Warmest Colour&#039;&#039;]], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and &#039;&#039;Body Politic&#039;&#039; writer Chris Bearchell,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot; A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on &amp;quot;Women/Girl Love&amp;quot; - Or, Lesbians Do &amp;quot;Do It&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;Gay Community News&#039;&#039;, 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O&#039;Carroll, &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039; (1980)].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&amp;amp;STORY_ID=3979&amp;amp;PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, &amp;quot;Teaching Sexuality&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a &#039;phase&#039;. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the &#039;[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]&#039;, and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. &#039;&#039;The New Yorker&#039;&#039;, September 11, 2023].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are &amp;quot;more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, &amp;quot;It’s possible,&amp;quot; Millett explained, &amp;quot;that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners&amp;quot; (&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Writing in Toronto&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed &#039;&#039;[[The Age Taboo]]&#039;&#039; (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|&#039;&#039;The Man they Called a Monster&#039;&#039;]] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was &amp;quot;impressed by the lucidity&amp;quot; of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;s arguments, &amp;quot;by his politeness, courage, and stamina&amp;quot; after having invited and heard him speak at a &#039;Gay Cambridge&#039; event, and lamented the &amp;quot;silenced women&amp;quot; afraid of speaking out after &amp;quot;the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, No. 84 (June, 1982).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Donald recalls &amp;quot;a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences.&amp;quot; She states that &amp;quot;Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend,&amp;quot; and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend&#039;s mother at 8.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;    &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the &amp;quot;paedosexual taboo,&amp;quot; might be &amp;quot;felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand.&amp;quot; Because of their special closeness [to young people],&amp;quot; Knopf argued, &amp;quot;the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men&amp;quot; (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that &amp;quot;Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (&#039;&#039;New Statesman&#039;&#039;, 16 Sept, 1977).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ultimately, Berlin&#039;s female intergenerational rights organization (&amp;quot;Kanalratten&amp;quot; meaning &amp;quot;Sewer Rats&amp;quot;) - which had published a manifesto&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;paidika 8&amp;quot; /&amp;gt; - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, &amp;quot;no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl,&amp;quot; could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the &amp;quot;love between adults and children&amp;quot;, and said she wanted &amp;quot;to do everything to change such laws.&amp;quot; After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP&#039;s campaign]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039; - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer&#039;s will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I&#039;ve heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Many editions available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Gallery==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. &amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] &amp;lt;small&amp;gt;(commonly cited but rarely used symbol)&amp;lt;/small&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, &amp;quot;I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...&amp;quot;. &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;, May 1978. Reprint from &#039;&#039;Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in &#039;&#039;The Body Politic&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/gallery&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Research literature== &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Amanda H. Littauer, &#039;&#039;Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s&#039;&#039;, in &#039;&#039;Historical Reflections&#039;&#039;, 46:1 (2020), 95-108.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion E.P. de Ras, &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934&#039;&#039; (Routledge, 2008).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f &#039;&#039;Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934&#039;&#039;] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 &#039;&#039;The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island&#039;&#039;], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls&#039; movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls&#039; groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the &amp;quot;infamous&amp;quot; chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &amp;quot;The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039; 5:1 (1994), 90–114.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marina Knopf, &amp;quot;Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*&#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Martha Vicinus, &#039;&#039;Interview&#039;&#039; in &#039;&#039;Paidika&#039;&#039;, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women&#039;s Issue.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, &amp;quot;Mummies and Babies&amp;quot; and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, &#039;Female Paedophilia&#039;, in &#039;&#039;[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]&#039;&#039; (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction&amp;quot;, in &#039;&#039;International Journal of Greek Love&#039;&#039;, Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm &amp;quot;Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Jenn McCollum, &amp;quot;The Romance of Henry James&#039;s Female Pedophile, in  &#039;&#039;MP: An Online Feminist Journal&#039;&#039;, Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==See also==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Pederasty]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External Links==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Personal perspectives===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly&#039;s testimony]&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Gay]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: International]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34651</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34651"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:03:40Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by [[Feminism|feminist]] civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Various editions are available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina&#039;s husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pornography [[Feminism|feminism]]. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34650</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34650"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:02:17Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039; (1987). Various editions are available.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina&#039;s husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34649</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34649"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T02:00:34Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina&#039;s husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34648</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34648"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:57:39Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina&#039;s husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34647</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34647"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:53:35Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34646</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34646"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:51:03Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: American]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1950s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1960s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1970s]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1980s]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34645</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34645"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:49:00Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &#039;&#039;A Restricted Country&#039;&#039;, Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34644</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34644"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:48:34Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34643</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34643"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:48:10Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|intergenerational sex]], and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34642</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34642"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:38:45Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censorship of dissident views and for other sexual minorities to have the right to speak. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences and events in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, wanted and unwanted experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her youthful longings for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the &amp;quot;pro-sex&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;sex positive&amp;quot; wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, &amp;quot;Any dissension became a heroic act.&amp;quot; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle&#039;s lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]&#039;s theory of the &amp;quot;Charmed Circle&amp;quot; to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the &amp;quot;second McCarthy period in my life.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&amp;amp;M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
She ended the chapter by stating:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34641</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34641"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:20:47Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Teenage experience */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censorship of dissident views and for other sexual minorities to have the right to speak. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences and events in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, wanted and unwanted experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her youthful longings for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34640</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34640"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:20:24Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censorship of dissident views and for other sexual minorities to have the right to speak. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences and events in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, wanted and unwanted experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her youthful longings for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Teenage experience==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a &amp;quot;bony hand&amp;quot; (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating. &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34639</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34639"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:11:25Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censorship of dissident views and for other sexual minorities to have the right to speak. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences and events in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, wanted and unwanted experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her youthful longings for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34638</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34638"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:10:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censorship of dissident views and for other sexual minorities to have the right to speak. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences and events in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, wanted and unwanted experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her youthful longings for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34637</id>
		<title>Joan Nestle</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Joan_Nestle&amp;diff=34637"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T01:09:32Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: Created page with &amp;quot;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;Joan Nestle&amp;#039;&amp;#039;&amp;#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist Nettie Pollard for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censors...&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle &#039;&#039;&#039;Joan Nestle&#039;&#039;&#039;] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. She is openly lesbian and sees her work of archival work as critical to her identity as &amp;quot;a woman, as a lesbian, and as a Jew.&amp;quot; Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against censorship of dissident views and for other sexual minorities to have the right to speak. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with &#039;&#039;Ripe Magazine&#039;&#039;, she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled &#039;&#039;Hand on the Pulse&#039;&#039;, and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history &#039;&#039;Not Just Passing Through&#039;&#039;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her 1987 non-fiction book &amp;quot;A Restricted Country,&amp;quot; Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences and events in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, wanted and unwanted experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her youthful longings for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...  &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ibid&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34636</id>
		<title>Thomas O&#039;Carroll</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34636"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:51:19Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;__NOTOc__[[File:ToC.png|thumb|Thomas O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;&#039;&#039;Thomas Victor O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;&#039; (born c. 1945&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/5367968.stm &amp;quot;Pair admit to child porn charges,&amp;quot;] September 2006, [[BBC]].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) is an Irish/British journalist, academic and advocate for [[Minor Attracted Person|MAPs]], being an early member and chairperson of the now defunct [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE), and a founding member of [[Ipce]]. Presently, he publishes a blog at &#039;&#039;&#039;heretictoc.com&#039;&#039;&#039;, which attracts around 2,000 comments on a yearly basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born in County Carlow, Ireland, O&#039;Carroll gained notoriety in 1980 when he published &#039;&#039;[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case, PDF (hosted on IPCE)]; The same PDF is [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F archived with novel description on Libgen].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, a book that articulated an ethical case for adult-child sexual relationships, and again in 2010, with &#039;&#039;Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jacksons-Dangerous-Liaisons-Carl/dp/1848763409 Amazon: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 Libgen: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; O&#039;Carroll has also published a number of academic articles. British mainstream media has dubbed O&#039;Carroll both Ireland&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/mar/04/digitaltv.broadcasting Cozens, BBC braced for paedophile row (&#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, 2003)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and Britain&#039;s &amp;quot;most notorious paedophile&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8548584/paedophile-tom-ocarroll-invited-to-house-of-lords-bash/ Wilkinson, LOUSE OF LORDS: Vile paedophile campaigner invited to plush champagne bash at the House of Lords (&#039;&#039;The Sun&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8466899/Paedophiles-rebrand-minor-attracted-persons-chilling-online-propaganda-drive.html Denkinson, Outrage as paedophiles rebrand themselves as &#039;minor-attracted persons&#039; in chilling online propaganda drive (&#039;&#039;Daily Mail&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Gay historian [[William Percy]] stated that O&#039;Carroll argued &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;for replacement of the age of consent law with a more flexible and liberal legal framework. It was felt the legitimate protection of children could be reconciled with an acceptance of child sexuality, the right of the young to sexual self-determination, and the legitimacy of consensual child-adult sexual contacts. A journalist, O’Carroll was PIE’s public face in the later 70s, when he propelled the organisation to national prominence&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20220403230005/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:O%27Carroll,_Tom Percy wiki entry for O&#039;Carroll] (webarchive)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Works==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:519525527-275720908-0ca81e0a958846fb.png|thumb|The &amp;quot;Five Heads&amp;quot; of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, plus Tom who, like many in PIE during the 1970s, was politically left-leaning. O&#039;Carroll identifies as a democratic [[Communism|socialist]] and equal opportunities [[Feminism|feminist]].]]&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;For a full list of writings, see [[Tom_O&#039;Carroll&#039;s_Publications|our list of publications]]. For a list and analysis, see [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Tom_O&#039;Carroll BoyWiki].&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Paedophilia: The Radical Case===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1980 O&#039;Carroll&#039;s book [[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]] was published and in the preface he states:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;I am a paedophile, and in the chapters that follow it will become apparent why I have felt it necessary to crash through the barriers of societal disapproval by speaking out. The fact that I have been able to do so owes much to the work, described in Part Three, of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), a group with which I have been closely connected, which has been campaigning since its inception in 1974 for the open discussion of paedophilia, and for abolition of the laws against consensual sexual acts between children and adults.&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Described as &amp;quot;a well researched and articulate book&amp;quot; by Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger (Guardian, 14 March 1981), this first major work by O&#039;Carroll divided reviewers sharply. In the academic world, it has stood the test of time with over 190 Google Scholar citations by 2025. For many years, it was a recommended text for postgraduates at Cambridge University&#039;s Institute of Criminology.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O’Carroll’s book on singer Michael Jackson was published in 2010 under the pen name “Carl Toms”. Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons, a 624-page work, essayed a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with preadolescent and adolescent boys. Published in the UK by Troubador Publishing Ltd. &amp;quot;At seventeen years in the making and a hefty 624 pages, this has been O&#039;Carroll&#039;s most ambitious work, in which, under the pen name Carl Toms, he essays a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with young boys. Described in the linked biography by historian [[William Percy]] as &amp;quot;a work of genius&amp;quot;, Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons received enthusiastic pre-publication endorsements from five eminent professors, including [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[James Kincaid]], [[Thomas Hubbard]], and Percy himself. After publication another renowned scholar, J. Michael Bailey, professor of psychology at Northwestern University, also gave high praise in a four-page review for the academic journal [[Archives of Sexual Behavior]]. Bailey, a family man, wrote, “The idea that pedophilic relationships can be harmless or even beneficial to children is disturbing to many people, including me.” But, he continued, “The lack of scientific evidence supporting my largely visceral reactions against pedophilic relationships has been one of the most surprising discoveries of my hopefully ongoing scientific education. [...] O’Carroll argues against my intuitions and he argues well.”&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:822676323-571745461- tom-ocarroll.jpg|thumb|Artistic depiction of O&#039;Carroll.]]&lt;br /&gt;
==Television==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll has made various appearances on television, including the BBC&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; and Australia&#039;s &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039;. There is at present no online copy of O&#039;Carroll&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; appearance, while his &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039; is heavily shortened from over an hour, to only short clips online. In 2014, O&#039;Carroll was interviewed for over an hour for &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;The Paedophile Next Door&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, a film which eventually aired November 25, 2014 on Channel 4 (a U.K. television network). O&#039;Caroll&#039;s interview was not used by the director: instead, O&#039;Carroll shared the (unedited) audio online,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://soundcloud.com/david-kennerly/stitching-up-steve-humphries A slightly edited version is available online at Soundcloud].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; which was turned into an amateur film by one of his readers, titled &#039;&#039;A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll] (Youtube).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A 2018 full-length and uncensored video discussion/debate between himself and then psychology student Danny Whittaker, can be watched easily on Youtube.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8SBM-yXULc #051- Interview with a Pedophile (Tom O&#039;Carroll). 2018 (Youtube).]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An often-&amp;quot;cancelled&amp;quot; personality==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:ToCperv.png|thumb|Quote from &#039;&#039;Radical Case&#039;&#039; on non-consent [[paraphilia]]s]]&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll is no stranger to being courted by prestigious platforms due to his experience in MAP advocacy, but has often subsequently fallen foul of public backlash. For example, in 2001 &#039;&#039;Is paedophilia violent?&#039;&#039;, a paper for the &#039;&#039;World Congress of Sexology&#039;&#039;, Paris, was given sustained encouragement over nearly a year by Dr Marc Ganem, the Congress President. However, the paper was eventually rejected without explanation by the Committee. After repeated demands for an explanation went unanswered, O&#039;Carroll was finally able to talk to Ganem. In a phone conversation, Ganem indicated that the President of the Scientific Committee, Dr Willy Pasini, appeared to be concerned not about the scientific quality of the paper but by the controversy to which it might give rise. It seems the committee did not want to upset the major pharmaceutical companies sponsoring the congress, nor the politically sensitive [[Wikipedia:World Health Organization|WHO]], with which it was associated. In order to combat this censorship, O&#039;Carroll&#039;s supporters attended the congress, where they distributed his paper on a CD, along with a flyer titled &#039;&#039;Censored: The Speech They Didn&#039;t Want You To Hear&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.helping-people.info/articles/violent_frame.htm &#039;&#039;Is Paedophilia Violent?&#039;&#039; A paper prepared for the World Congress of Sexology, Paris 2001]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2023, O&#039;Carroll detailed how his work for academic publishers had generated a rash of attention, following the retraction of his peer-reviewed and published book chapter from the IntechOpen book &#039;&#039;Ethics in Scientific Research: New Perspectives&#039;&#039;. Retracted without explanation and likely on the basis of his open [[MAP]] identity, O&#039;Carroll identified a group of radical [[Feminism|Feminists]] attached to the &#039;&#039;Sexnet&#039;&#039; private forum as the likely cause. His chapter was entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, and can be read elsewhere online.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://heretictoc.com/2023/08/17/from-fallen-angels-to-bare-bear/ From fallen ‘angels’ to bare Bear], re. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369197385_Where_Angels_Fear_to_Tread_Anxieties_over_Researching_Child_Sexuality_Must_Be_Overcome Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome (2023 book chapter)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Run-ins with the law==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1981, O&#039;Carroll was convicted for the archaic and rarely prosecuted political crime of &amp;quot;conspiracy to corrupt public morals&amp;quot;, over the contact ads section of the PIE magazine and was imprisoned. He had some defenders in the press, and [[The Campaign Against Public Morals]] (CAPM) was formed in his defence, producing a [[Communism|left-wing]] booklet entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Paedophilia and Public Morals&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; (1980) which scrutinized patriarchal, state and family oppression of young people, as well as defending the indicted PIE committee members. O&#039;Carroll was once again imprisoned much later in 2002, on charges of evading a prohibition on the importation of [[Child porn|indecent photographs of children]] stemming from nude photographs that O&#039;Carroll had taken of children on the beaches of Qatar. At the time, he was working on a book about the musician and philanthropist Michael Jackson who was later acquitted of charges brought against him regarding indecent behavior towards a child.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, O&#039;Carroll was arrested on suspicion of conspiring to distribute indecent photographs of children after supplying an undercover [[Metropolitan Police|Met]] police officer (who over a three year period gained O&#039;Carroll&#039;s trust) with a cache of [[child pornography]] obtained from his co defendant, Michael John De Clare Studdert&#039;s collection. He was arraigned 1 June, 2006 on child porn charges.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/display.var.779431.0.police_charge_man_over_child_sex_ring.php &amp;quot;Police charge man over child sex ring&amp;quot;], by  Olivia Richwald, &#039;&#039;[[The Northern Echo]]&#039;&#039;, 1 June 2006&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In September 2006, he was charged with  two counts of distributing indecent images of children.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On December 20 2006, he was jailed for 2½ years at London’s Middlesex Crown Court,&amp;lt;ref name=beebgaol&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/6196811.stm BBC NEWS | UK | England | Coventry/Warwickshire | Two jailed for child porn library&amp;lt;!-- Bot generated title --&amp;gt;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; but was released in the summer of 2007. This case was described as a “sting operation”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20190330235201/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20220401020938/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography] - a richly nuanced bio from williamapercy.com&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_O%27Carroll Wikipedia]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://heretictoc.com/ Personal Blog]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://theworld.org/stories/2016/07/30/man-pedophile-and-proud-it TheWorld bio]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20080724183953/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~11.html &amp;quot;Reflections on Thomas O&#039;Carroll&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039;] - Also available via [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F Libgen].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 &#039;&#039;Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;], see also an [https://ia902604.us.archive.org/18/items/michael-jacksons-dangerous-liaisons/Michael%20Jackson%27s%20Dangerous%20Liaisons_%20Arvi%20-%20Carl%20Toms.pdf IA Backup].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll (film)]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20130425190322/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/Tom%20Carroll%20Sexual%20Privacy%20Background%20Paper.pdf Sexual privacy for paedophiles and children: a complementary background paper.] By Tom O&#039;Carroll&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/carrollrev1.htm Of Goode and evil. Review of &#039;&#039;Paedophiles in Society: Reflecting on Sexuality, Abuse and Hope&#039;&#039;] - Critical review of a seemingly humane approach to the understanding of pedophiles presented by a preventionist, Sarah Goode ([https://www.ipce.info/library/web-article/goode-and-evil-review Ipce]).&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200926180955/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll%27s_communication_and_presentation_for_the_new_book_that_he_and_I_are_writing_about_ages_of_which_Romans_married Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;s communication with William A. Percy about their book]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Real Crime]][[Category:People: Irish]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Adult or Minor sexually attracted to or involved with the other]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:822676323-571745461-_tom-ocarroll.jpg&amp;diff=34635</id>
		<title>File:822676323-571745461- tom-ocarroll.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:822676323-571745461-_tom-ocarroll.jpg&amp;diff=34635"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:49:50Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
A collage / edited image of O&#039;Carroll. Originally from an Anti website which for whatever reason, chose to make their intellectual and philosophical opponent look cool...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Archival]][[Category:Archival: Miscellaneous]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:822676323-571745461-_tom-ocarroll.jpg&amp;diff=34634</id>
		<title>File:822676323-571745461- tom-ocarroll.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:822676323-571745461-_tom-ocarroll.jpg&amp;diff=34634"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:49:22Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
A collage / edited image of O&#039;Carroll. Originally from an Anti website which for whatever reason, chose to make their intellectual and philosophical opponent look cool...&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:822676323-571745461-_tom-ocarroll.jpg&amp;diff=34633</id>
		<title>File:822676323-571745461- tom-ocarroll.jpg</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:822676323-571745461-_tom-ocarroll.jpg&amp;diff=34633"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:48:55Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: A collage / edited image of O&amp;#039;Carroll. Originally from an Anti website which for whatever reason, chose to make his intellectual and philosophical opponent look cool...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
A collage / edited image of O&#039;Carroll. Originally from an Anti website which for whatever reason, chose to make his intellectual and philosophical opponent look cool...&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34632</id>
		<title>Thomas O&#039;Carroll</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34632"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:38:58Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Works */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;__NOTOc__[[File:ToC.png|thumb|Thomas O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;&#039;&#039;Thomas Victor O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;&#039; (born c. 1945&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/5367968.stm &amp;quot;Pair admit to child porn charges,&amp;quot;] September 2006, [[BBC]].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) is an Irish/British journalist, academic and advocate for [[Minor Attracted Person|MAPs]], being an early member and chairperson of the now defunct [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE), and a founding member of [[Ipce]]. Presently, he publishes a blog at &#039;&#039;&#039;heretictoc.com&#039;&#039;&#039;, which attracts around 2,000 comments on a yearly basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born in County Carlow, Ireland, O&#039;Carroll gained notoriety in 1980 when he published &#039;&#039;[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case, PDF (hosted on IPCE)]; The same PDF is [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F archived with novel description on Libgen].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, a book that articulated an ethical case for adult-child sexual relationships, and again in 2010, with &#039;&#039;Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jacksons-Dangerous-Liaisons-Carl/dp/1848763409 Amazon: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 Libgen: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; O&#039;Carroll has also published a number of academic articles. British mainstream media has dubbed O&#039;Carroll both Ireland&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/mar/04/digitaltv.broadcasting Cozens, BBC braced for paedophile row (&#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, 2003)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and Britain&#039;s &amp;quot;most notorious paedophile&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8548584/paedophile-tom-ocarroll-invited-to-house-of-lords-bash/ Wilkinson, LOUSE OF LORDS: Vile paedophile campaigner invited to plush champagne bash at the House of Lords (&#039;&#039;The Sun&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8466899/Paedophiles-rebrand-minor-attracted-persons-chilling-online-propaganda-drive.html Denkinson, Outrage as paedophiles rebrand themselves as &#039;minor-attracted persons&#039; in chilling online propaganda drive (&#039;&#039;Daily Mail&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Gay historian [[William Percy]] stated that O&#039;Carroll argued &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;for replacement of the age of consent law with a more flexible and liberal legal framework. It was felt the legitimate protection of children could be reconciled with an acceptance of child sexuality, the right of the young to sexual self-determination, and the legitimacy of consensual child-adult sexual contacts. A journalist, O’Carroll was PIE’s public face in the later 70s, when he propelled the organisation to national prominence&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20220403230005/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:O%27Carroll,_Tom Percy wiki entry for O&#039;Carroll] (webarchive)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Works==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:519525527-275720908-0ca81e0a958846fb.png|thumb|The &amp;quot;Five Heads&amp;quot; of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, plus Tom who, like many in PIE during the 1970s, was politically left-leaning. O&#039;Carroll identifies as a democratic [[Communism|socialist]] and equal opportunities [[Feminism|feminist]].]]&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;For a full list of writings, see [[Tom_O&#039;Carroll&#039;s_Publications|our list of publications]]. For a list and analysis, see [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Tom_O&#039;Carroll BoyWiki].&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Paedophilia: The Radical Case===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1980 O&#039;Carroll&#039;s book [[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]] was published and in the preface he states:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;I am a paedophile, and in the chapters that follow it will become apparent why I have felt it necessary to crash through the barriers of societal disapproval by speaking out. The fact that I have been able to do so owes much to the work, described in Part Three, of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), a group with which I have been closely connected, which has been campaigning since its inception in 1974 for the open discussion of paedophilia, and for abolition of the laws against consensual sexual acts between children and adults.&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Described as &amp;quot;a well researched and articulate book&amp;quot; by Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger (Guardian, 14 March 1981), this first major work by O&#039;Carroll divided reviewers sharply. In the academic world, it has stood the test of time with over 190 Google Scholar citations by 2025. For many years, it was a recommended text for postgraduates at Cambridge University&#039;s Institute of Criminology.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O’Carroll’s book on singer Michael Jackson was published in 2010 under the pen name “Carl Toms”. Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons, a 624-page work, essayed a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with preadolescent and adolescent boys. Published in the UK by Troubador Publishing Ltd. &amp;quot;At seventeen years in the making and a hefty 624 pages, this has been O&#039;Carroll&#039;s most ambitious work, in which, under the pen name Carl Toms, he essays a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with young boys. Described in the linked biography by historian [[William Percy]] as &amp;quot;a work of genius&amp;quot;, Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons received enthusiastic pre-publication endorsements from five eminent professors, including [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[James Kincaid]], [[Thomas Hubbard]], and Percy himself. After publication another renowned scholar, J. Michael Bailey, professor of psychology at Northwestern University, also gave high praise in a four-page review for the academic journal [[Archives of Sexual Behavior]]. Bailey, a family man, wrote, “The idea that pedophilic relationships can be harmless or even beneficial to children is disturbing to many people, including me.” But, he continued, “The lack of scientific evidence supporting my largely visceral reactions against pedophilic relationships has been one of the most surprising discoveries of my hopefully ongoing scientific education. [...] O’Carroll argues against my intuitions and he argues well.”&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Television==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll has made various appearances on television, including the BBC&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; and Australia&#039;s &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039;. There is at present no online copy of O&#039;Carroll&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; appearance, while his &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039; is heavily shortened from over an hour, to only short clips online. In 2014, O&#039;Carroll was interviewed for over an hour for &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;The Paedophile Next Door&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, a film which eventually aired November 25, 2014 on Channel 4 (a U.K. television network). O&#039;Caroll&#039;s interview was not used by the director: instead, O&#039;Carroll shared the (unedited) audio online,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://soundcloud.com/david-kennerly/stitching-up-steve-humphries A slightly edited version is available online at Soundcloud].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; which was turned into an amateur film by one of his readers, titled &#039;&#039;A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll] (Youtube).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A 2018 full-length and uncensored video discussion/debate between himself and then psychology student Danny Whittaker, can be watched easily on Youtube.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8SBM-yXULc #051- Interview with a Pedophile (Tom O&#039;Carroll). 2018 (Youtube).]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An often-&amp;quot;cancelled&amp;quot; personality==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:ToCperv.png|thumb|Quote from &#039;&#039;Radical Case&#039;&#039; on non-consent [[paraphilia]]s]]&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll is no stranger to being courted by prestigious platforms due to his experience in MAP advocacy, but has often subsequently fallen foul of public backlash. For example, in 2001 &#039;&#039;Is paedophilia violent?&#039;&#039;, a paper for the &#039;&#039;World Congress of Sexology&#039;&#039;, Paris, was given sustained encouragement over nearly a year by Dr Marc Ganem, the Congress President. However, the paper was eventually rejected without explanation by the Committee. After repeated demands for an explanation went unanswered, O&#039;Carroll was finally able to talk to Ganem. In a phone conversation, Ganem indicated that the President of the Scientific Committee, Dr Willy Pasini, appeared to be concerned not about the scientific quality of the paper but by the controversy to which it might give rise. It seems the committee did not want to upset the major pharmaceutical companies sponsoring the congress, nor the politically sensitive [[Wikipedia:World Health Organization|WHO]], with which it was associated. In order to combat this censorship, O&#039;Carroll&#039;s supporters attended the congress, where they distributed his paper on a CD, along with a flyer titled &#039;&#039;Censored: The Speech They Didn&#039;t Want You To Hear&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.helping-people.info/articles/violent_frame.htm &#039;&#039;Is Paedophilia Violent?&#039;&#039; A paper prepared for the World Congress of Sexology, Paris 2001]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2023, O&#039;Carroll detailed how his work for academic publishers had generated a rash of attention, following the retraction of his peer-reviewed and published book chapter from the IntechOpen book &#039;&#039;Ethics in Scientific Research: New Perspectives&#039;&#039;. Retracted without explanation and likely on the basis of his open [[MAP]] identity, O&#039;Carroll identified a group of radical [[Feminism|Feminists]] attached to the &#039;&#039;Sexnet&#039;&#039; private forum as the likely cause. His chapter was entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, and can be read elsewhere online.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://heretictoc.com/2023/08/17/from-fallen-angels-to-bare-bear/ From fallen ‘angels’ to bare Bear], re. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369197385_Where_Angels_Fear_to_Tread_Anxieties_over_Researching_Child_Sexuality_Must_Be_Overcome Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome (2023 book chapter)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Run-ins with the law==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1981, O&#039;Carroll was convicted for the archaic and rarely prosecuted political crime of &amp;quot;conspiracy to corrupt public morals&amp;quot;, over the contact ads section of the PIE magazine and was imprisoned. He had some defenders in the press, and [[The Campaign Against Public Morals]] (CAPM) was formed in his defence, producing a [[Communism|left-wing]] booklet entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Paedophilia and Public Morals&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; (1980) which scrutinized patriarchal, state and family oppression of young people, as well as defending the indicted PIE committee members. O&#039;Carroll was once again imprisoned much later in 2002, on charges of evading a prohibition on the importation of [[Child porn|indecent photographs of children]] stemming from nude photographs that O&#039;Carroll had taken of children on the beaches of Qatar. At the time, he was working on a book about the musician and philanthropist Michael Jackson who was later acquitted of charges brought against him regarding indecent behavior towards a child.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, O&#039;Carroll was arrested on suspicion of conspiring to distribute indecent photographs of children after supplying an undercover [[Metropolitan Police|Met]] police officer (who over a three year period gained O&#039;Carroll&#039;s trust) with a cache of [[child pornography]] obtained from his co defendant, Michael John De Clare Studdert&#039;s collection. He was arraigned 1 June, 2006 on child porn charges.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/display.var.779431.0.police_charge_man_over_child_sex_ring.php &amp;quot;Police charge man over child sex ring&amp;quot;], by  Olivia Richwald, &#039;&#039;[[The Northern Echo]]&#039;&#039;, 1 June 2006&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In September 2006, he was charged with  two counts of distributing indecent images of children.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On December 20 2006, he was jailed for 2½ years at London’s Middlesex Crown Court,&amp;lt;ref name=beebgaol&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/6196811.stm BBC NEWS | UK | England | Coventry/Warwickshire | Two jailed for child porn library&amp;lt;!-- Bot generated title --&amp;gt;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; but was released in the summer of 2007. This case was described as a “sting operation”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20190330235201/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20220401020938/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography] - a richly nuanced bio from williamapercy.com&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_O%27Carroll Wikipedia]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://heretictoc.com/ Personal Blog]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://theworld.org/stories/2016/07/30/man-pedophile-and-proud-it TheWorld bio]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20080724183953/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~11.html &amp;quot;Reflections on Thomas O&#039;Carroll&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039;] - Also available via [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F Libgen].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 &#039;&#039;Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;], see also an [https://ia902604.us.archive.org/18/items/michael-jacksons-dangerous-liaisons/Michael%20Jackson%27s%20Dangerous%20Liaisons_%20Arvi%20-%20Carl%20Toms.pdf IA Backup].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll (film)]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20130425190322/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/Tom%20Carroll%20Sexual%20Privacy%20Background%20Paper.pdf Sexual privacy for paedophiles and children: a complementary background paper.] By Tom O&#039;Carroll&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/carrollrev1.htm Of Goode and evil. Review of &#039;&#039;Paedophiles in Society: Reflecting on Sexuality, Abuse and Hope&#039;&#039;] - Critical review of a seemingly humane approach to the understanding of pedophiles presented by a preventionist, Sarah Goode ([https://www.ipce.info/library/web-article/goode-and-evil-review Ipce]).&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200926180955/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll%27s_communication_and_presentation_for_the_new_book_that_he_and_I_are_writing_about_ages_of_which_Romans_married Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;s communication with William A. Percy about their book]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Real Crime]][[Category:People: Irish]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Adult or Minor sexually attracted to or involved with the other]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34631</id>
		<title>Thomas O&#039;Carroll</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34631"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:38:09Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: /* Works */&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;__NOTOc__[[File:ToC.png|thumb|Thomas O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;&#039;&#039;Thomas Victor O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;&#039; (born c. 1945&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/5367968.stm &amp;quot;Pair admit to child porn charges,&amp;quot;] September 2006, [[BBC]].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) is an Irish/British journalist, academic and advocate for [[Minor Attracted Person|MAPs]], being an early member and chairperson of the now defunct [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE), and a founding member of [[Ipce]]. Presently, he publishes a blog at &#039;&#039;&#039;heretictoc.com&#039;&#039;&#039;, which attracts around 2,000 comments on a yearly basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born in County Carlow, Ireland, O&#039;Carroll gained notoriety in 1980 when he published &#039;&#039;[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case, PDF (hosted on IPCE)]; The same PDF is [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F archived with novel description on Libgen].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, a book that articulated an ethical case for adult-child sexual relationships, and again in 2010, with &#039;&#039;Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jacksons-Dangerous-Liaisons-Carl/dp/1848763409 Amazon: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 Libgen: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; O&#039;Carroll has also published a number of academic articles. British mainstream media has dubbed O&#039;Carroll both Ireland&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/mar/04/digitaltv.broadcasting Cozens, BBC braced for paedophile row (&#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, 2003)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and Britain&#039;s &amp;quot;most notorious paedophile&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8548584/paedophile-tom-ocarroll-invited-to-house-of-lords-bash/ Wilkinson, LOUSE OF LORDS: Vile paedophile campaigner invited to plush champagne bash at the House of Lords (&#039;&#039;The Sun&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8466899/Paedophiles-rebrand-minor-attracted-persons-chilling-online-propaganda-drive.html Denkinson, Outrage as paedophiles rebrand themselves as &#039;minor-attracted persons&#039; in chilling online propaganda drive (&#039;&#039;Daily Mail&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Gay historian [[William Percy]] stated that O&#039;Carroll argued &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;for replacement of the age of consent law with a more flexible and liberal legal framework. It was felt the legitimate protection of children could be reconciled with an acceptance of child sexuality, the right of the young to sexual self-determination, and the legitimacy of consensual child-adult sexual contacts. A journalist, O’Carroll was PIE’s public face in the later 70s, when he propelled the organisation to national prominence&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20220403230005/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:O%27Carroll,_Tom Percy wiki entry for O&#039;Carroll] (webarchive)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Works==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:519525527-275720908-0ca81e0a958846fb.png|thumb|The &amp;quot;Five Heads&amp;quot; of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, plus Tom who, like many in PIE during the 1970s, is politically left-leaning and identifies as a democratic [[Communism|socialist]] and equal opportunities [[Feminism|feminist]].]]&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;For a full list of writings, see [[Tom_O&#039;Carroll&#039;s_Publications|our list of publications]]. For a list and analysis, see [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Tom_O&#039;Carroll BoyWiki].&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Paedophilia: The Radical Case===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1980 O&#039;Carroll&#039;s book [[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]] was published and in the preface he states:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;I am a paedophile, and in the chapters that follow it will become apparent why I have felt it necessary to crash through the barriers of societal disapproval by speaking out. The fact that I have been able to do so owes much to the work, described in Part Three, of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), a group with which I have been closely connected, which has been campaigning since its inception in 1974 for the open discussion of paedophilia, and for abolition of the laws against consensual sexual acts between children and adults.&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Described as &amp;quot;a well researched and articulate book&amp;quot; by Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger (Guardian, 14 March 1981), this first major work by O&#039;Carroll divided reviewers sharply. In the academic world, it has stood the test of time with over 190 Google Scholar citations by 2025. For many years, it was a recommended text for postgraduates at Cambridge University&#039;s Institute of Criminology.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O’Carroll’s book on singer Michael Jackson was published in 2010 under the pen name “Carl Toms”. Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons, a 624-page work, essayed a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with preadolescent and adolescent boys. Published in the UK by Troubador Publishing Ltd. &amp;quot;At seventeen years in the making and a hefty 624 pages, this has been O&#039;Carroll&#039;s most ambitious work, in which, under the pen name Carl Toms, he essays a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with young boys. Described in the linked biography by historian [[William Percy]] as &amp;quot;a work of genius&amp;quot;, Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons received enthusiastic pre-publication endorsements from five eminent professors, including [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[James Kincaid]], [[Thomas Hubbard]], and Percy himself. After publication another renowned scholar, J. Michael Bailey, professor of psychology at Northwestern University, also gave high praise in a four-page review for the academic journal [[Archives of Sexual Behavior]]. Bailey, a family man, wrote, “The idea that pedophilic relationships can be harmless or even beneficial to children is disturbing to many people, including me.” But, he continued, “The lack of scientific evidence supporting my largely visceral reactions against pedophilic relationships has been one of the most surprising discoveries of my hopefully ongoing scientific education. [...] O’Carroll argues against my intuitions and he argues well.”&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Television==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll has made various appearances on television, including the BBC&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; and Australia&#039;s &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039;. There is at present no online copy of O&#039;Carroll&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; appearance, while his &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039; is heavily shortened from over an hour, to only short clips online. In 2014, O&#039;Carroll was interviewed for over an hour for &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;The Paedophile Next Door&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, a film which eventually aired November 25, 2014 on Channel 4 (a U.K. television network). O&#039;Caroll&#039;s interview was not used by the director: instead, O&#039;Carroll shared the (unedited) audio online,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://soundcloud.com/david-kennerly/stitching-up-steve-humphries A slightly edited version is available online at Soundcloud].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; which was turned into an amateur film by one of his readers, titled &#039;&#039;A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll] (Youtube).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A 2018 full-length and uncensored video discussion/debate between himself and then psychology student Danny Whittaker, can be watched easily on Youtube.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8SBM-yXULc #051- Interview with a Pedophile (Tom O&#039;Carroll). 2018 (Youtube).]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An often-&amp;quot;cancelled&amp;quot; personality==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:ToCperv.png|thumb|Quote from &#039;&#039;Radical Case&#039;&#039; on non-consent [[paraphilia]]s]]&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll is no stranger to being courted by prestigious platforms due to his experience in MAP advocacy, but has often subsequently fallen foul of public backlash. For example, in 2001 &#039;&#039;Is paedophilia violent?&#039;&#039;, a paper for the &#039;&#039;World Congress of Sexology&#039;&#039;, Paris, was given sustained encouragement over nearly a year by Dr Marc Ganem, the Congress President. However, the paper was eventually rejected without explanation by the Committee. After repeated demands for an explanation went unanswered, O&#039;Carroll was finally able to talk to Ganem. In a phone conversation, Ganem indicated that the President of the Scientific Committee, Dr Willy Pasini, appeared to be concerned not about the scientific quality of the paper but by the controversy to which it might give rise. It seems the committee did not want to upset the major pharmaceutical companies sponsoring the congress, nor the politically sensitive [[Wikipedia:World Health Organization|WHO]], with which it was associated. In order to combat this censorship, O&#039;Carroll&#039;s supporters attended the congress, where they distributed his paper on a CD, along with a flyer titled &#039;&#039;Censored: The Speech They Didn&#039;t Want You To Hear&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.helping-people.info/articles/violent_frame.htm &#039;&#039;Is Paedophilia Violent?&#039;&#039; A paper prepared for the World Congress of Sexology, Paris 2001]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2023, O&#039;Carroll detailed how his work for academic publishers had generated a rash of attention, following the retraction of his peer-reviewed and published book chapter from the IntechOpen book &#039;&#039;Ethics in Scientific Research: New Perspectives&#039;&#039;. Retracted without explanation and likely on the basis of his open [[MAP]] identity, O&#039;Carroll identified a group of radical [[Feminism|Feminists]] attached to the &#039;&#039;Sexnet&#039;&#039; private forum as the likely cause. His chapter was entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, and can be read elsewhere online.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://heretictoc.com/2023/08/17/from-fallen-angels-to-bare-bear/ From fallen ‘angels’ to bare Bear], re. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369197385_Where_Angels_Fear_to_Tread_Anxieties_over_Researching_Child_Sexuality_Must_Be_Overcome Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome (2023 book chapter)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Run-ins with the law==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1981, O&#039;Carroll was convicted for the archaic and rarely prosecuted political crime of &amp;quot;conspiracy to corrupt public morals&amp;quot;, over the contact ads section of the PIE magazine and was imprisoned. He had some defenders in the press, and [[The Campaign Against Public Morals]] (CAPM) was formed in his defence, producing a [[Communism|left-wing]] booklet entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Paedophilia and Public Morals&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; (1980) which scrutinized patriarchal, state and family oppression of young people, as well as defending the indicted PIE committee members. O&#039;Carroll was once again imprisoned much later in 2002, on charges of evading a prohibition on the importation of [[Child porn|indecent photographs of children]] stemming from nude photographs that O&#039;Carroll had taken of children on the beaches of Qatar. At the time, he was working on a book about the musician and philanthropist Michael Jackson who was later acquitted of charges brought against him regarding indecent behavior towards a child.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, O&#039;Carroll was arrested on suspicion of conspiring to distribute indecent photographs of children after supplying an undercover [[Metropolitan Police|Met]] police officer (who over a three year period gained O&#039;Carroll&#039;s trust) with a cache of [[child pornography]] obtained from his co defendant, Michael John De Clare Studdert&#039;s collection. He was arraigned 1 June, 2006 on child porn charges.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/display.var.779431.0.police_charge_man_over_child_sex_ring.php &amp;quot;Police charge man over child sex ring&amp;quot;], by  Olivia Richwald, &#039;&#039;[[The Northern Echo]]&#039;&#039;, 1 June 2006&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In September 2006, he was charged with  two counts of distributing indecent images of children.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On December 20 2006, he was jailed for 2½ years at London’s Middlesex Crown Court,&amp;lt;ref name=beebgaol&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/6196811.stm BBC NEWS | UK | England | Coventry/Warwickshire | Two jailed for child porn library&amp;lt;!-- Bot generated title --&amp;gt;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; but was released in the summer of 2007. This case was described as a “sting operation”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20190330235201/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20220401020938/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography] - a richly nuanced bio from williamapercy.com&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_O%27Carroll Wikipedia]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://heretictoc.com/ Personal Blog]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://theworld.org/stories/2016/07/30/man-pedophile-and-proud-it TheWorld bio]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20080724183953/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~11.html &amp;quot;Reflections on Thomas O&#039;Carroll&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039;] - Also available via [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F Libgen].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 &#039;&#039;Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;], see also an [https://ia902604.us.archive.org/18/items/michael-jacksons-dangerous-liaisons/Michael%20Jackson%27s%20Dangerous%20Liaisons_%20Arvi%20-%20Carl%20Toms.pdf IA Backup].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll (film)]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20130425190322/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/Tom%20Carroll%20Sexual%20Privacy%20Background%20Paper.pdf Sexual privacy for paedophiles and children: a complementary background paper.] By Tom O&#039;Carroll&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/carrollrev1.htm Of Goode and evil. Review of &#039;&#039;Paedophiles in Society: Reflecting on Sexuality, Abuse and Hope&#039;&#039;] - Critical review of a seemingly humane approach to the understanding of pedophiles presented by a preventionist, Sarah Goode ([https://www.ipce.info/library/web-article/goode-and-evil-review Ipce]).&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200926180955/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll%27s_communication_and_presentation_for_the_new_book_that_he_and_I_are_writing_about_ages_of_which_Romans_married Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;s communication with William A. Percy about their book]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Real Crime]][[Category:People: Irish]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Adult or Minor sexually attracted to or involved with the other]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34630</id>
		<title>Thomas O&#039;Carroll</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Thomas_O%27Carroll&amp;diff=34630"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:37:27Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;__NOTOc__[[File:ToC.png|thumb|Thomas O&#039;Carroll]]&#039;&#039;&#039;Thomas Victor O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;&#039; (born c. 1945&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot;&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/5367968.stm &amp;quot;Pair admit to child porn charges,&amp;quot;] September 2006, [[BBC]].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;) is an Irish/British journalist, academic and advocate for [[Minor Attracted Person|MAPs]], being an early member and chairperson of the now defunct [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE), and a founding member of [[Ipce]]. Presently, he publishes a blog at &#039;&#039;&#039;heretictoc.com&#039;&#039;&#039;, which attracts around 2,000 comments on a yearly basis.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born in County Carlow, Ireland, O&#039;Carroll gained notoriety in 1980 when he published &#039;&#039;[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case, PDF (hosted on IPCE)]; The same PDF is [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F archived with novel description on Libgen].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;, a book that articulated an ethical case for adult-child sexual relationships, and again in 2010, with &#039;&#039;Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Jacksons-Dangerous-Liaisons-Carl/dp/1848763409 Amazon: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 Libgen: Dangerous Liaisons]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; O&#039;Carroll has also published a number of academic articles. British mainstream media has dubbed O&#039;Carroll both Ireland&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/mar/04/digitaltv.broadcasting Cozens, BBC braced for paedophile row (&#039;&#039;The Guardian&#039;&#039;, 2003)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; and Britain&#039;s &amp;quot;most notorious paedophile&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8548584/paedophile-tom-ocarroll-invited-to-house-of-lords-bash/ Wilkinson, LOUSE OF LORDS: Vile paedophile campaigner invited to plush champagne bash at the House of Lords (&#039;&#039;The Sun&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8466899/Paedophiles-rebrand-minor-attracted-persons-chilling-online-propaganda-drive.html Denkinson, Outrage as paedophiles rebrand themselves as &#039;minor-attracted persons&#039; in chilling online propaganda drive (&#039;&#039;Daily Mail&#039;&#039;, 2019)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Gay historian [[William Percy]] stated that O&#039;Carroll argued &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;for replacement of the age of consent law with a more flexible and liberal legal framework. It was felt the legitimate protection of children could be reconciled with an acceptance of child sexuality, the right of the young to sexual self-determination, and the legitimacy of consensual child-adult sexual contacts. A journalist, O’Carroll was PIE’s public face in the later 70s, when he propelled the organisation to national prominence&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20220403230005/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:O%27Carroll,_Tom Percy wiki entry for O&#039;Carroll] (webarchive)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Works==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:519525527-275720908-0ca81e0a958846fb.png|thumb|The &amp;quot;Five Heads&amp;quot; of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, plus Tom who, like many in PIE during the 1970s, is politically left-leaning and identifies as a democratic socialist and equal opportunities feminist.]]&lt;br /&gt;
:&#039;&#039;For a full list of writings, see [[Tom_O&#039;Carroll&#039;s_Publications|our list of publications]]. For a list and analysis, see [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Tom_O&#039;Carroll BoyWiki].&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Paedophilia: The Radical Case===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1980 O&#039;Carroll&#039;s book [[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]] was published and in the preface he states:&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;I am a paedophile, and in the chapters that follow it will become apparent why I have felt it necessary to crash through the barriers of societal disapproval by speaking out. The fact that I have been able to do so owes much to the work, described in Part Three, of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), a group with which I have been closely connected, which has been campaigning since its inception in 1974 for the open discussion of paedophilia, and for abolition of the laws against consensual sexual acts between children and adults.&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Described as &amp;quot;a well researched and articulate book&amp;quot; by Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger (Guardian, 14 March 1981), this first major work by O&#039;Carroll divided reviewers sharply. In the academic world, it has stood the test of time with over 190 Google Scholar citations by 2025. For many years, it was a recommended text for postgraduates at Cambridge University&#039;s Institute of Criminology.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
===Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons===&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O’Carroll’s book on singer Michael Jackson was published in 2010 under the pen name “Carl Toms”. Michael Jackson’s Dangerous Liaisons, a 624-page work, essayed a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with preadolescent and adolescent boys. Published in the UK by Troubador Publishing Ltd. &amp;quot;At seventeen years in the making and a hefty 624 pages, this has been O&#039;Carroll&#039;s most ambitious work, in which, under the pen name Carl Toms, he essays a comprehensive review of the late entertainer’s controversially intimate relationships with young boys. Described in the linked biography by historian [[William Percy]] as &amp;quot;a work of genius&amp;quot;, Michael Jackson&#039;s Dangerous Liaisons received enthusiastic pre-publication endorsements from five eminent professors, including [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[James Kincaid]], [[Thomas Hubbard]], and Percy himself. After publication another renowned scholar, J. Michael Bailey, professor of psychology at Northwestern University, also gave high praise in a four-page review for the academic journal [[Archives of Sexual Behavior]]. Bailey, a family man, wrote, “The idea that pedophilic relationships can be harmless or even beneficial to children is disturbing to many people, including me.” But, he continued, “The lack of scientific evidence supporting my largely visceral reactions against pedophilic relationships has been one of the most surprising discoveries of my hopefully ongoing scientific education. [...] O’Carroll argues against my intuitions and he argues well.”&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Television==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll has made various appearances on television, including the BBC&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; and Australia&#039;s &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039;. There is at present no online copy of O&#039;Carroll&#039;s &#039;&#039;After Dark&#039;&#039; appearance, while his &#039;&#039;60 Minutes&#039;&#039; is heavily shortened from over an hour, to only short clips online. In 2014, O&#039;Carroll was interviewed for over an hour for &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;The Paedophile Next Door&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, a film which eventually aired November 25, 2014 on Channel 4 (a U.K. television network). O&#039;Caroll&#039;s interview was not used by the director: instead, O&#039;Carroll shared the (unedited) audio online,&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://soundcloud.com/david-kennerly/stitching-up-steve-humphries A slightly edited version is available online at Soundcloud].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; which was turned into an amateur film by one of his readers, titled &#039;&#039;A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll] (Youtube).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A 2018 full-length and uncensored video discussion/debate between himself and then psychology student Danny Whittaker, can be watched easily on Youtube.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8SBM-yXULc #051- Interview with a Pedophile (Tom O&#039;Carroll). 2018 (Youtube).]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==An often-&amp;quot;cancelled&amp;quot; personality==&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:ToCperv.png|thumb|Quote from &#039;&#039;Radical Case&#039;&#039; on non-consent [[paraphilia]]s]]&lt;br /&gt;
O&#039;Carroll is no stranger to being courted by prestigious platforms due to his experience in MAP advocacy, but has often subsequently fallen foul of public backlash. For example, in 2001 &#039;&#039;Is paedophilia violent?&#039;&#039;, a paper for the &#039;&#039;World Congress of Sexology&#039;&#039;, Paris, was given sustained encouragement over nearly a year by Dr Marc Ganem, the Congress President. However, the paper was eventually rejected without explanation by the Committee. After repeated demands for an explanation went unanswered, O&#039;Carroll was finally able to talk to Ganem. In a phone conversation, Ganem indicated that the President of the Scientific Committee, Dr Willy Pasini, appeared to be concerned not about the scientific quality of the paper but by the controversy to which it might give rise. It seems the committee did not want to upset the major pharmaceutical companies sponsoring the congress, nor the politically sensitive [[Wikipedia:World Health Organization|WHO]], with which it was associated. In order to combat this censorship, O&#039;Carroll&#039;s supporters attended the congress, where they distributed his paper on a CD, along with a flyer titled &#039;&#039;Censored: The Speech They Didn&#039;t Want You To Hear&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.helping-people.info/articles/violent_frame.htm &#039;&#039;Is Paedophilia Violent?&#039;&#039; A paper prepared for the World Congress of Sexology, Paris 2001]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 2023, O&#039;Carroll detailed how his work for academic publishers had generated a rash of attention, following the retraction of his peer-reviewed and published book chapter from the IntechOpen book &#039;&#039;Ethics in Scientific Research: New Perspectives&#039;&#039;. Retracted without explanation and likely on the basis of his open [[MAP]] identity, O&#039;Carroll identified a group of radical [[Feminism|Feminists]] attached to the &#039;&#039;Sexnet&#039;&#039; private forum as the likely cause. His chapter was entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;, and can be read elsewhere online.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://heretictoc.com/2023/08/17/from-fallen-angels-to-bare-bear/ From fallen ‘angels’ to bare Bear], re. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/369197385_Where_Angels_Fear_to_Tread_Anxieties_over_Researching_Child_Sexuality_Must_Be_Overcome Where Angels Fear to Tread: Anxieties over Researching Child Sexuality Must Be Overcome (2023 book chapter)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Run-ins with the law==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1981, O&#039;Carroll was convicted for the archaic and rarely prosecuted political crime of &amp;quot;conspiracy to corrupt public morals&amp;quot;, over the contact ads section of the PIE magazine and was imprisoned. He had some defenders in the press, and [[The Campaign Against Public Morals]] (CAPM) was formed in his defence, producing a [[Communism|left-wing]] booklet entitled &amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Paedophilia and Public Morals&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; (1980) which scrutinized patriarchal, state and family oppression of young people, as well as defending the indicted PIE committee members. O&#039;Carroll was once again imprisoned much later in 2002, on charges of evading a prohibition on the importation of [[Child porn|indecent photographs of children]] stemming from nude photographs that O&#039;Carroll had taken of children on the beaches of Qatar. At the time, he was working on a book about the musician and philanthropist Michael Jackson who was later acquitted of charges brought against him regarding indecent behavior towards a child.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Later, O&#039;Carroll was arrested on suspicion of conspiring to distribute indecent photographs of children after supplying an undercover [[Metropolitan Police|Met]] police officer (who over a three year period gained O&#039;Carroll&#039;s trust) with a cache of [[child pornography]] obtained from his co defendant, Michael John De Clare Studdert&#039;s collection. He was arraigned 1 June, 2006 on child porn charges.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/display.var.779431.0.police_charge_man_over_child_sex_ring.php &amp;quot;Police charge man over child sex ring&amp;quot;], by  Olivia Richwald, &#039;&#039;[[The Northern Echo]]&#039;&#039;, 1 June 2006&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; In September 2006, he was charged with  two counts of distributing indecent images of children.&amp;lt;ref name=&amp;quot;bbc21&amp;quot; /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On December 20 2006, he was jailed for 2½ years at London’s Middlesex Crown Court,&amp;lt;ref name=beebgaol&amp;gt;[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/coventry_warwickshire/6196811.stm BBC NEWS | UK | England | Coventry/Warwickshire | Two jailed for child porn library&amp;lt;!-- Bot generated title --&amp;gt;]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; but was released in the summer of 2007. This case was described as a “sting operation”.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20190330235201/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==External links==&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20220401020938/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll_Biography Tom O&#039;Carroll Biography] - a richly nuanced bio from williamapercy.com&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_O%27Carroll Wikipedia]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://heretictoc.com/ Personal Blog]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://theworld.org/stories/2016/07/30/man-pedophile-and-proud-it TheWorld bio]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20080724183953/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~11.html &amp;quot;Reflections on Thomas O&#039;Carroll&amp;quot;]&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/preface.htm &#039;&#039;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&#039;&#039;] - Also available via [http://library.lol/main/A3AE585C3F0C54C3EAB7CDC09EA8C90F Libgen].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://libgen.rocks/ad.php?md5=d1ba0af152fa18c758c3f8cc415a2fd7&amp;amp;uid=1602 &#039;&#039;Dangerous Liaisons&#039;&#039;], see also an [https://ia902604.us.archive.org/18/items/michael-jacksons-dangerous-liaisons/Michael%20Jackson%27s%20Dangerous%20Liaisons_%20Arvi%20-%20Carl%20Toms.pdf IA Backup].&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.boywiki.org/en/A_Decent_Life:_The_Dissenting_Narrative_of_Tom_O%27Carroll_(film) A Decent Life: The Dissenting Narrative of Tom O&#039;Carroll (film)]&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20130425190322/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/Tom%20Carroll%20Sexual%20Privacy%20Background%20Paper.pdf Sexual privacy for paedophiles and children: a complementary background paper.] By Tom O&#039;Carroll&lt;br /&gt;
*[http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/carrollrev1.htm Of Goode and evil. Review of &#039;&#039;Paedophiles in Society: Reflecting on Sexuality, Abuse and Hope&#039;&#039;] - Critical review of a seemingly humane approach to the understanding of pedophiles presented by a preventionist, Sarah Goode ([https://www.ipce.info/library/web-article/goode-and-evil-review Ipce]).&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200926180955/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_O%27Carroll%27s_communication_and_presentation_for_the_new_book_that_he_and_I_are_writing_about_ages_of_which_Romans_married Tom O&#039;Carroll&#039;s communication with William A. Percy about their book]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references/&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: British]][[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Real Crime]][[Category:People: Irish]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Adult or Minor sexually attracted to or involved with the other]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Communism&amp;diff=34629</id>
		<title>Communism</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://wiki.yesmap.net/wiki/index.php?title=Communism&amp;diff=34629"/>
		<updated>2026-07-01T00:34:51Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;div&gt;[[File:519525527-275720908-0ca81e0a958846fb.png|thumb|The &amp;quot;Five Heads&amp;quot; of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, plus [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]].]]__NOTOC__&lt;br /&gt;
[[Youth rights]], including the sexual liberation of children, is compatible with some interpretations of &#039;&#039;&#039;communism&#039;&#039;&#039;/&#039;&#039;&#039;socialism&#039;&#039;&#039; (these terms are used interchangeably by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, but are sometimes distinguished by Leftist individuals and tendencies). &#039;&#039;&#039;Anarchist&#039;&#039;&#039; thinking has also supported young people&#039;s autonomy.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;See for example: [https://annas-archive.org/md5/8083c68d89de429de502a36f7304890f &#039;&#039;Trust Kids!: Stories on Youth Autonomy and Confronting Adult Supremacy&#039;&#039;, ed. by Carla Bergman (AK Press: Chico, CA, 2022)]. See also, [https://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/topic/no-against-adult-supremacy NO! Against Adult Supremacy] - from the Anarchist Library. We have also made pages for various Anarchists, such as [[Hakim Bey]], [[René Schérer]], [[Wolfi Landstreicher]], and [[Sebastien Faure]].&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; One Reddit post&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;https://www.reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/owqdft/bourgeois_vs_proletarian_sexuality/&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; claims that &amp;quot;by contemporary standards, Jenny von Westphalen &amp;quot;groomed&amp;quot; Karl Marx&amp;quot;, as does a short youtube video.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92z_OrPN7z8 Jenny von Wesphalen groomed Karl Marx], by Benjamin Ingram (external link)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Marxism views the nuclear [[family]] as a means for the subordination of children and women, exploitation upon which capitalism is supposedly dependent. [[Family values]] -- monogamy, homophobia, sexual suppression/repression, and other enemies of free love -- are enforced to maintain the traditional family unit. According to some communists/socialists, extending rights to the young would undermine the father&#039;s place of power and interrupt the inheritance of class and acceptance of classist models.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Marx and Engels on age-gap sex==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;What, then, does promiscuous sexual intercourse really mean? It means the absence of prohibitions and restrictions which are or have been in force. We have already seen the barrier of jealousy go down. If there is one thing certain, it is that the feeling of jealousy develops relatively late. The same is true of the conception of incest. Not only were brother and sister originally man and wife; sexual intercourse between parents and children is still permitted among many peoples today. Bancroft (The Native Races of the Pacific States of North America, 1875, Vol. I), testifies to it among the Kadiaks on the Behring Straits, the Kadiaks near Alaska, and the Tinneh in the interior of British North America; Letourneau compiled reports of it among the Chippewa Indians, the Cucus in Chile, the Caribs, the Karens in Burma; to say nothing of the stories told by the old Greeks and Romans about the Parthians, Persians, Scythians, Huns, and so on. &#039;&#039;&#039;Before incest was invented – for incest is an invention, and a very valuable one, too – sexual intercourse between parents and children did not arouse any more repulsion than sexual intercourse between other persons of different generations, and that occurs today even in the most philistine countries without exciting any great horror&#039;&#039;&#039;; even “old maids” of over sixty, if they are rich enough, sometimes marry young men in their thirties.&#039;&#039; [...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;In a letter written in the spring of 1882, Marx expresses himself in the strongest terms about the complete misrepresentation of primitive times &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; &#039;&#039;&#039;Marx replies: &amp;quot;In primitive times the sister was the wife, and that was moral.&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;&#039;&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&#039;Frederick Engels&#039;&#039;&#039;. &#039;&#039;Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State&#039;&#039; (1884).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch02.htm Engles, 1884]. (External link).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; &lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;But perhaps the most important illustration of the link between struggle and sexuality is the Russian Revolution of 1917, in which the working class exploded the limits of capitalism. In the brief period in which the revolution flourished, the revolutionaries abolished all laws against homosexuality, introduced divorce by request, abortion on demand and repealed the age of consent laws.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&amp;quot;[http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/gayleft/socalt.rtf Sexual Liberation and Socialism],&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;Socialist Alternative&#039;&#039; (Red Guide), issue 16, April 1997.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[File:1950sUSSR.jpg|thumb|1950s USSR poster reading: &amp;quot;If you want to be healthy, harden yourself!&amp;quot;]]__NOTOC__&lt;br /&gt;
The 1920s were a period of relative sexual openness for the USSR. Erotic &amp;quot;experimentation&amp;quot; was reportedly common during meetings of the &#039;&#039;Young Pioneer&#039;&#039; youth organization. Parents &amp;quot;complained that their 10–12 year old children came home at 3–4 am, declaring that they were at the Pioneer meetings and cut off parental protests with threats and accusations of counter-revolution.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The change in politics in the country by the 1930s roughly coincided with the start of a moral panic over &amp;quot;unhealthy relations&amp;quot; between children. It was claimed that &amp;quot;the abnormal sexual relations between children&amp;quot; had &amp;quot;taken on menacing proportions&amp;quot; and required &amp;quot;extreme measures.&amp;quot;  Sexual indulgence was thought to distract children from more productive activities. The state began to enforce a strict taboo against sexualities that did not conform to the Victorian model. The uniforms of one summer camp were criticized on the grounds that &amp;quot;pants are not entirely hygienic for girls, because they cause in them excessive friction in the sexual organs.&amp;quot; Prohibitions on homosexuality were enforced, albeit predominantly &amp;quot;against those instances when juveniles and minors are the objects of homosexual interest,&amp;quot; who may have been MAPs.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.stalinsociety.com/news/homosexualityintheussr Homosexuality in the USSR]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The problem of youth sexuality was eventually deemed severe enough for the state to segregate male and female schooling.  [[Ann Livschiz]] writes that this action reflected the &amp;quot;fundamental social conservatism of the majority of the top political leadership of the country and their great fear of youth, and particularly female, sexuality, as a force that could not be overcome, controlled or fully harnessed for the service of the state.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Livschiz, Ann (2008). &amp;quot;Battling &amp;quot;Unhealthy Relations&amp;quot;: Soviet Youth Sexuality as a Political Problem,&amp;quot; &#039;&#039;Journal of Historical Sociology&#039;&#039;, 21(4), 397-416.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In the 1960s, young people sought romantic and sexual autonomy against the background of shifting attitudes toward sexuality, marriage, and reproduction. In the early 60s, a new wave of publications celebrated high-school romance as a way to constrain adolescent sexuality, and as a path to a stable Soviet family. Emphasizing the need to teach teenagers about the dangers of premarital sex, the experts argued that first love was wholesome because it was based on idealization of the object of affection. This idea, however, met with resistance from many parents of teenage girls. Fixation on teen girls’ chastity cut across class lines, with middle-class parents relying on the morality discourse to make sense of their children&#039;s lives, while working-class families reproduced peasant norms of girls’ “honor,” synonymous with virginity and determined by the community. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Based on the analysis of teenage letters, diaries, and sociological studies along with publications on adolescent love and friendship in the Soviet press, historian Alissa Klots has argued that the state-sanctioned discourse empowered teenagers to challenge the rules established by their parents and the broader community and claim romantic and sexual autonomy. At the same time, Klots argued, the official discourse reinforced highly gendered views of the relationship between the sexes - and thus set strict parameters for what was appropriate - parameters internalized by many teenagers. Official discourse legitimized conservative concepts such as “maiden honor,” condemning premarital sex and placing the burden of chastity on women. According to her research, the price paid by teen girls if premarital sex led to pregnancy reinforced the prejudice that it was their responsibility to keep first love “pure.”&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;The preceding paragraph has been freely adapted from a 2026 research article by Alissa Klots. See Klots, Alissa. [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00035 &amp;quot;A Heart-to-Heart Conversation: Debating the Limits of Adolescent Friendship, Love, and Courtship in 1960s Russia.&amp;quot;] &#039;&#039;Journal of the History of Sexuality&#039;&#039;, vol. 34 no. 3, 2025, p. 446-476.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Age-disparate sex: Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While exiled in Siberia, [[Josef Stalin]] is known to have had an affair with a 13-year-old female named Lidia, at the age of 36. In the biography &#039;&#039;Young Stalin&#039;&#039; (2007),&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Sebag-Montefiore, Simon (2007). &#039;&#039;[https://library.lol/main/22A2BAB1FDD0555538BBC0BE86FDC0E6 Young Stalin]&#039;&#039;. Alfred A. Knopf. See also [https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/n0635-siberian-pensioner-is-grandson-of-josef-stalin-dna-test-reveals/ genetic proof.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454291/Stalin-lover-aged-13.html Stalin and his lover aged 13]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Simon Sebag Montefiore wrote:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;We know no details of how this developed. But some time in early 1914 Stalin, now thirty-four, embarked on an affair with Lidia, aged thirteen.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;We catch a glimpse of Stalin and Lidia together staggering from drinking-bout to drinking-bout because we have her memoirs of their boozy carousals: “In his spare time, Stalin liked to go to evening dances — he could be very jolly too. He loved to sing and dance. He especially liked the song ‘I’m guarding the gold, the gold . . . I’m burying the gold, burying the gold, Guess where, pure damsel with your golden hair’. . . He often joined birthday dinners.” The memoirs of Stalin’s thirteen-year-old mistress were recorded twenty years later &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; while she remained a Siberian housewife.&#039;&#039; &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;“He often liked to drop in on some people,” says Lidia, meaning herself. “And he also drank.” Was this how he seduced her — or she him? Girls in places like Kureika matured early — and Lidia does not sound like a shrinking violet.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;Even though local lore discouraged affairs with exiles, the local girls were bound to be attracted to these worldly, educated revolutionaries in their midst. This statutory rape was not rape by force but an old-fashioned seduction.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Monifore notes the [[age of consent]] among other important contextual factors:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Fourteen was technically the age of consent in the Russian and European regions of the Tsarist Empire, but this was Siberia. Besides, there was no precise legal concept of statutory rape in Tsarist law: for the police, it was as much a crime “against female honour” as a violation of her father’s chattels. The seducer’s agreement to marry and then the exchange of marriage vows were seen as rectifying an untoward situation.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The Chinese revolutionary and statesmen [[Mao Zedong]] wrote romantic poetry in youth and lived an active sex life which included many young female sexual partners. There are only 2 claims of sexual activity involving people under 18. The first comes from anti-communist writer Jonathan Mirsky, who in 1997 claimed to have interviewed a 57-years-old woman (&amp;quot;Mrs. Chen&amp;quot;) in Hong Kong, who said she began having sex with Mao in 1962 when she was 14 and he 69/70.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Mirsky. &#039;&#039;[https://archive.fo/TkNb5#selection-1049.0-1053.55 Me and Mao’s girl: An encounter with one of the Chairman’s underage lovers]&#039;&#039; (&#039;&#039;The Spectator&#039;&#039;, 2011).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Chen appears to view the experience positively, with Mirsky noting that &amp;quot;She had plenty to say about the Great Helmsman’s virility and stamina&amp;quot;, and how Mao cried after she was sent to work in the North of the country against his wishes:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;After five years, Jiang Qing insisted that Ms Chen be banished to the north-east, to a lesser job. Mao, she claimed, took her on his knee and wept, but said he could do nothing. After some years in exile, she was summoned back to Beijing for a brief stopover where Mao, again weeping, said he could do nothing for her and was sending her back to Nanking where her marriage had been arranged. (Ibid).&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It should be noted that Mirsky may be an unreliable source. His language is moralistic and derogatory (&amp;quot;monster&amp;quot;), and he consistently relies on and has even reviewed&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Mirsky. [https://archive.fo/WCpQ7 Unmasking the Monster]. Review of Mao&#039;s Private Life (1994)&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; the source for the second claim about minors, Dr. Li Zhisui&#039;s &#039;&#039;The Private Life of Chairman Mao: The Memoirs of Mao’s Personal Physician&#039;&#039; (1994).&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Private_Life_of_Chairman_Mao Wiki page for Dr. Li&#039;s book.]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Dr. Li&#039;s book claims that Mao loved to reminisce about an encounter he had as a teenage villager with a &amp;quot;pretty&amp;quot; 12-year-old female. While this concerns attraction instead of action, Dr. Li&#039;s book is the major source for evidence of Mao&#039;s sexual prowess, and includes events which are framed negatively such as Mao&#039;s alleged contracting and spreading venereal disease through sex. Dr. Li&#039;s claims have been critiqued by professional Chinese historian Mobo Gao in a dedicated chapter titled &#039;&#039;How a medical doctor doctors history: a case study of Li Zhisui&#039;&#039;, in his 2008 book &#039;&#039;The Battle for China&#039;s Past&#039;&#039;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;[https://library.lol/main/F3B2B6834C81EF8F7315CB42A5FB7A29 The Battle for China&#039;s Past]&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; There are many other professional critiques of commonly accepted anti-Stalin and anti-Mao claims.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;For Stalin and his time as statesmen, see the work of J. Arch Getty, Mark Tauger, Stephen Wheatcroft. See the work of Samantha Lomb, e.g. [https://library.lol/main/2AF37FFBA76E612B049D39AF88CB1969 Stalin’s Constitution: Soviet Participatory Politics] (Routledge, 2017). Much of these researcher&#039;s conclusions are highlighted in historian [https://library.lol/main/48F580E2E2B9D7E1BACAC9405F8420CB Grover Furr&#039;s writings], such as [https://library.lol/main/4F13589002A3DFA4B0139B332FEF54AD Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder&#039;s Bloodlands Is False] (2014), and [https://library.lol/main/0FA2BE18E21402199E0A70CA6ADB223E Stalin. Waiting For ... The Truth! Exposing the Falsehoods in Stephen Kotkin&#039;s &#039;Stalin. Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941&#039;] (2019). Roland Boer addresses Stalin&#039;s religious views, e.g. [https://library.lol/main/9AA9DF3F5C6A98251A0790001E52A0EA Stalin: From Theology to the Philosophy of Socialism in Power] (2017). A historically informed tract can be found in Domenico Losurdo, [https://library.lol/main/978159484621AC3A9C94C444A835A0D7 Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend] (2019).&lt;br /&gt;
      &lt;br /&gt;
For Mao, see Gao&#039;s later work such as his 2018 book [https://library.lol/main/F49C94C43F77A037E7E6785F7E1358A4 Constructing China: Clashing Views of the People&#039;s Republic]; Dongping Han, [https://library.lol/main/603AB84882D24FBE3B35C4FE83258619 The Unknown Cultural Revolution] (2000); Gregor Benton, Lin Chun (eds.), [https://library.lol/main/C62B578D7855A04612F41AB35811CDE5 Was Mao Really a Monster?: The academic response to Chang and Halliday&#039;s Mao: The Unknown Story] (2009); Lee Feigon, [https://library.lol/main/C7EB9DC36EC9A3164DE0C9DA115B2A78 Mao: A Reinterpretation] (2003); Daniel F. Vukovich, [https://library.lol/main/C19E4C1F55AA068CDBD882B904B8FC2A China and Orientalism: Western Knowledge Production and the PRC] (Routledge, 2013). A general book addressing both Stalin and Mao&#039;s governments is economist Austin Murphy&#039;s [https://library.lol/main/1463915729B5AE8F30FAC63DE6D2D87E The Triumph of Evil: the Reality of the USA’s Cold War Victory] (2000, European Academic Press).&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==Evo Morales==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Born 26 October 1959, the 65th president of Bolivia from 2006 to 2019, [[wikipedia:Evo_Morales|&#039;&#039;&#039;Evo Morales&#039;&#039;&#039;]], [[wikipedia:Evo_Morales#Statutory_rape_investigation|faced 2 accusations]] of [[statutory rape]] (unlawful consensual sex) in 2020. Leading the Movement for Socialism (MAS) party since 1998, he is widely regarded as a left-wing / socialist president, has been described as &amp;quot;the most famous Bolivian ever&amp;quot;, and is considered the country&#039;s first president to come from its indigenous population. His government was considered part of the [[wikipedia:Pink_tide|pink tide]]. Summarized with information from Wikipedia:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;On 7 August 2020, several photographs of Morales with a supposed underage female came to light, and began circulating on social media. Journalist Alejandro Entreambasaguas and Bolivian authorities said that her and Morales had been in a relationship since she was 14 years old. Several news organizations related these claims with comments that Morales had made twice previously on retiring with a &#039;&#039;quinceañera&#039;&#039; (15-year-old) when he was no longer president.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;The woman was later identified as 19-year-old &#039;&#039;&#039;Noemí Meneses&#039;&#039;&#039; when a statement to police was leaked. In the statement, she said she had been in a romantic relationship with Morales since May 2020, and had no previous relations with him. The Bolivian police subsequently placed her under house arrest from which she escaped and fled to Argentina with her parents. After arriving in Argentina, Meneses wrote a letter to the Bolivian Ombudsman saying that the police had kept her from eating for two days and threatened to prosecute her for sedition and terrorism unless she said that she had been in a relationship with Morales. She wrote that the police had &amp;quot;forced [her] to testify under pressure, without a lawyer&amp;quot;.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Wikipedia claims that &amp;quot;The circumstances of her arrest are further disputed&amp;quot;. See in-text links for sources.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; Alleged evidence to corroborate a long-term romantic relationship between Morales and Meneses was obtained and subsequently published by Bolivian and Spanish press, including excerpts from 101 pages of text conversations and phone records between the two, 90 photos of the pair in various locations (including the presidential palace, the presidential jet and in Buenos Aires) and travel receipts. Meneses said she met Evo Morales when she was 16 during the 2015 carnival season, while declaration data indicates that she was born in 2001, meaning that she may-in-fact have been 14 when they met.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;On 21 August 2020, an unrelated complaint of a second statutory rape case was filed against Morales. In this complaint, it is claimed that Morales had a child with a 15-year-old and that he is named as the father on the birth certificate. In response, Morales claimed that the complaint was part of a &amp;quot;dirty war&amp;quot; by the interim government against him.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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==Anti-capitalist supporters==&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*An immediate demand of the [[Communist Party of Great Britain]] was until the early 2020s: &amp;quot;The abolition of age-of-consent laws. We recognise the right of individuals to enter into the sexual relations they choose provided this does not conflict with the rights of others. Alternative legislation to protect children from sexual abuse.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20201018151051/https://communistparty.co.uk/3-immediate-demands/ 2020 archived UKCP Positions/Demands]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; They have since removed this demand and do not have a set-in-stone policy on the [[Age of Consent]].&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Spartacist League]]: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Marxists oppose all laws against “crimes without victims,” such as prostitution, drug use or pornography. We utterly reject the practice whereby looking at pornography is equated with violent crimes such as rape, sexual assault and even murder. We also oppose the criminalization of those who look at child pornography which, like all pornography, is simply words and images designed for pleasure. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; In line with this, we do not think intergenerational sex is by definition abusive, nor do we think incest is a priori a crime to be punished by the bourgeois state. &#039;&#039;[...]&#039;&#039; We oppose age of consent laws because we oppose state intervention into people’s private sexual activities. We do not accord the capitalist state the right to decree the age at which youth may engage in consensual sexual activity. To create genuinely free and equal relations between people in all spheres, including sex, requires nothing less than the destruction of this class system and the creation of a communist world. In a classless society, social and economic constraints over sexual relations will be non-existent, and in the words of Friedrich Engels, &#039;there is no other motive left except mutual inclination.&#039;&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv/876/canadasex.html Spartacist League: Canada: Anti-Sex Crusade Targets Youth, Gays]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
In 1994, the Spartacist League supported MAP ally psychologist and gay liberation activist [[John P. De Cecco]] when local newspaper scandal led to protest against him at his university. In his defense, the League&#039;s San Francisco University youth chapter, the Spartacus Youth Club (SYC), organized a speakout protest/rally at the university.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Other statements from a German branch include:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;Blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;&amp;quot;Pedophilia&amp;quot; simply means sexual desire for children. Equating this with the murder and rape of children is grotesque and part of the same reactionary bourgeois bigotry that declares any sex outside of heterosexual monogamy to be &amp;quot;abnormal.&amp;quot; We oppose the persecution of all those who have consensual sex with members of another generation, we reject the reactionary &amp;quot;underage&amp;quot; laws, and we have long been known to defend organizations such as the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) and the British Paedophile Information Exchange, whose leaders were arrested in 1984 for advocating for the right of &amp;quot;underage&amp;quot; youth to have sex with adults.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/icl-spartacists/periodicals/spartakist/142_2000-2001_Winter_Spartakist.pdf Marxists.org - Translation]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/Blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;Blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;But unlike the countless pastors and rap stars who say that Michael would never commit such a &amp;quot;heinous crime&amp;quot; as having sex with 12-year-old boys, we defend him against state persecution precisely because we fight for the right of people to have consensual sex with whomever they choose. The only guideline that should exist in sexual relationships is the rule of actual mutual consent, regardless of age, gender, or race. Defending Michael Jackson is also a defense of everyone&#039;s privacy and sexual freedom.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[...]&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;The capitalist state wants to prohibit all sex for young people in order to prepare them for a life of unfulfilled desires and wishes by promoting abstinence, guilt, and fear of sexual desire. These laws have nothing to do with protecting children; their entire purpose is to reinforce puritan values ​​that religion promotes and to provide a moral justification for government interference in all other aspects of life. As Marxists, we oppose all laws that criminalize consensual sex for young people, whether with or without an adult partner. Down with all reactionary laws about &amp;quot;minors&amp;quot;!&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/icl-spartacists/periodicals/spartakist/154_2004_Spring_Spartakist.pdf Marxists.org (2)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;Blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Reactionary campaigns and laws against &amp;quot;pedophiles&amp;quot; deliberately fail to distinguish between real crimes—such as the brutal kidnapping, rape, and murder of young girls, as in the case of Mare Dutroux, who was recently convicted in Belgium—and voluntary sexual relations, including with adolescents. Such laws are not designed to protect children, but rather to establish and glorify the repressive institution of the family, which is the essential source of the particular oppression of women and children under capitalism.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/icl-spartacists/periodicals/spartakist/155_2004_Summer_Spartakist.pdf Marxists.org (3)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;Blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;For the bourgeoisie and its political police in the labor movement, social democracy, it is of course of fundamental importance that workers (and the rest of the population) are regulated by hypocritical bourgeois morality, the church, &amp;quot;ethics&amp;quot; classes in schools, and the family. The family—the central institution of class society for oppressing women and youth—serves to transmit this morality and regulation to the next generation of workers. Therefore, any form of sex that questions the monogamous &amp;quot;norm&amp;quot; is branded as &amp;quot;deviant&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;sinful&amp;quot;—whether homosexuality, pedophilia, or whatever.&#039;&#039;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&#039;&#039;And, of course, it is the highest commandment of all social democrats that the capitalist state, as the guardian of the &amp;quot;common good,&amp;quot; act as the enforcer of this hypocritical morality. The same state, guardian of private ownership of the means of production and the reactionary family, is the source of all reactionary persecution of gays, lesbians, and minorities in general.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/icl-spartacists/periodicals/spartakist/158_2005_Spring_Spartakist.pdf Marxists.org (4)]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/Blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*The US Revolutionary Socialist League (disbanded): &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;We believe that all consensual sex is the business only of those involved. The state has no business regulating in any way expressions of sexuality between consenting persons of any number, sex, or age. The state&#039;s attempt to regulate youth sexuality in particular is rooted in young people&#039;s position as property of their parents and/or wards of the state. Young people are jailed in schools, economically exploited, and denied the most basic political rights. Society maintains this oppression by imposing the idea that young people are not capable of determing their own wants and needs, in particular their sexual needs and desires. We oppose age of consent laws. These laws deny the ability of young people to determine their own sexual needs and desires. They maintain the status of youth as property, and reinforce the closet for gay youth.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[http://books.google.ca/books?id=0b5xmYpoZE4C Gay Men and the Sexual History of the Political Left - G Books]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*Sandra Bloodworth: &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;blockquote&amp;gt;&#039;&#039;Ultimately children will not gain genuine liberation until capitalism has been destroyed root and branch and a new society is built in which all human sexuality is encouraged and nurtured instead of despised and repressed.&#039;&#039;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://web.archive.org/web/20080726073919/http://www.sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&amp;amp;task=view&amp;amp;id=565&amp;amp;Itemid=106 Socialist Alternative: Children and Sex]&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
*[[The Oneida Community]] - Christian socialist self-governing community which institutionalized woman/boy and man/girl sexual contact.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Harry Hay]] and [[Jim Kepner]], pro-pederast founders of the [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|modern gay movement]].&lt;br /&gt;
*[[David Thorstad]], president of the Gay Activists Alliance and a founder of [[NAMBLA]].&lt;br /&gt;
*Marxist/anarchist women profiled on our [[feminism]] page: Shulamith Firestone, Germaine Greer, Simone de Beauvoir.&lt;br /&gt;
*[[Roger Moody]], [[Michel Foucault]], [[Guy Hocquenghem]], [[Mario Mieli]], [[Peter Tatchell]] and various others associated with the early gay and [[MAP Movement]]s.&lt;br /&gt;
*Anarchist figures - German MAP figure [[Peter Schult]]; anarchist theorists/figures [[Hakim Bey]]/Peter Lamborn Wilson, [[John Henry Mackay]], [[Wolfi Landstreicher]], [[Sebastien Faure]], [[Tom Reeves]]. Renown Anarchist [[Noam Chomsky]], who was scandalized in 2023 media for his ever having been willing to associate with [[Jeffrey Epstein]] and [[Woody Allen]]: associations which he defends.&lt;br /&gt;
*Philosopher [[Slavoj Žižek]] - various relevant statements.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://www.reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/owqdft/bourgeois_vs_proletarian_sexuality/ Reddit thread] which cites [[Michel Foucault]], sees age-gap sex as proletarian (i.e. working class).&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;&#039;&#039;Paedophilia and Public Morals&#039;&#039;&amp;quot; (1980), a booklet produced by [[The Campaign Against Public Morals]] (CAPM), a group of Left-wing activists who formed an organization in defence of [[Thomas O&#039;Carroll]] (himself a self-identified democratic socialist and equal opportunities feminist) and his [[PIE]] co-defendants in the wake of an upcoming  1981 trial for &amp;quot;Conspiracy to corrupt public morals&amp;quot;. The booklet offers [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|testimonies]] of positive age-gap sexual contact, whilst offering philosophical treatise which scrutinize patriarchal, state and family oppression of young people.&lt;br /&gt;
*Many authors in [[The_Betrayal_of_Youth_(Book)|&#039;&#039;The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People&#039;&#039;]], Edited by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London), were left-wing activists. E.g. John Lindsay, &#039;Socialism, Class, and Children&#039;s Rights&#039;, pp.134-141.&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;[https://library.lol/main/D3E65600BCD53F898EE99AEBF6BCBC24 &#039;&#039;The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People&#039;&#039;, ed. by Warren Middleton (London: CL Publications, 1986)]. Libgen link.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*In 1978, the first chairperson of the London-based [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] Keith Hose, was interviewed in the &#039;&#039;Leveller&#039;&#039;, a radical left journal. Asked to explain the links between socialism and pedophilia, he argued that &amp;quot;In Britain&lt;br /&gt;
before capitalism one gets the impression that things were more free for pedophiles,&amp;quot; and that pedophilia is only condemned because it &amp;quot;threatens some of the basic institutions of capitalism, such as the nuclear family.&amp;quot;&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;Interview with Keith Hose, &#039;&#039;Leveller&#039;&#039;, February 1978.&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
*&amp;quot;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1pXPR_PtKQ Pedophilia is proletarian]&amp;quot; (2021) video on youtube, by Benjamin Ingram. Other videos include &amp;quot;[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=653CW9MYGf0 The Pedophilic Lebensraum Of Autonomous Zones]&amp;quot; (referring to [[Hakim Bey]]).&lt;br /&gt;
*YouTube streamer [[Vaush]] has made various comments and arguments about [[pedophilia]], [[Child Pornography]], and [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|mutually willing adult-child sex]], during his streaming career.&lt;br /&gt;
*[https://youtube.fandom.com/wiki/Viki1999 Viki1999], a transgender Austrian leftist YouTube channel who joined the platform on June 1, 2019, announced on May 29, 2023, that she was [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wdj5kV-p4Q quitting YouTube] after being accused of being a pedophile. Viki was accused because of posts she had made to her Discord server indicating she found a 15-year-old attractive, and that, compared to Florida&#039;s age of consent at 18, &amp;quot;in austria it&#039;s 14 ;)&amp;quot;. Viki stated that these were jokes in context, and that accusations of pedophilia led her to feel suicidal. Her accusers have since apologized, and she plans to continue her career as a sex worker with far higher earnings than YouTube.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
==References==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;references /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1910s]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1920s]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: 1930s]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:History &amp;amp; Events: Russian]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Countries and Cultures]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Sociological Theory]]&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Prostitution]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
	</entry>
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		<updated>2026-07-01T00:34:08Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Prue: &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;hr /&gt;
&lt;div&gt;== Summary ==&lt;br /&gt;
The &amp;quot;Five Heads&amp;quot; of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao. This time, with a 6th person included: [[Tom O&#039;Carroll]]. O&#039;Carroll is the 2nd and most well-known Chairperson of PIE, the Paedophile Information Exchange, a defunct activist, peer-support and lobbying group that existed in Britain until approximately 1984. O&#039;Carroll has published &amp;quot;Paedophilia: The Radical Case&amp;quot; (1980), and numerous scholarly articles in academic journals. Like many in PIE during the 1970s, O&#039;Carroll was left-leaning and identifies as a democratic socialist and equal opportunities feminist.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Archival]][[Category:Archival: Miscellaneous]]&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Prue</name></author>
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