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The Right-wing and Minor Attraction

2026-09-03T03:04:30Z

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<div style="margin-left: 25px; float: right; width: 40%;">__TOC__</div>{{Template:Adj}}'''[[Wikipedia:Right-wing_politics|Right-wing politics]]''' is the range of political ideologies that view certain social orders and hierarchies as inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically supporting this position based on natural law, economics, authority, property, religion, or tradition. Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences or competition in market economies.

Right-wing politics are considered the counterpart to [[Communism|left-wing politics]], and the left–right political spectrum is one of the most widely accepted. The right includes social conservatives and fiscal conservatives as well as right-libertarians. "Right" and "right-wing" have been variously used as compliments and pejoratives describing neoliberal, conservative, and fascist economic and social ideas.

It has become fashionable among [[Jeffrey Epstein|Epstein-Truthers]] on the left to promote what has been described as "[[Wiktionary:pedocon|pedocon theory]]" - the idea that right-wing politics is associated with sexually predatory behavior towards women and "children".

==Minor attraction and the Right Wing==

Despite [[Vigilantism|pedo-bashing]] being a favorite pastime among different identarian groups, many such accusations of [[Anti|MAP tendencies and projection / hypocrisy among right-wingers]], are partially or fully based on the truth. In the case of the political right, within the contexts of both Asian and European politics (and its derivatives), there's a long-storied connection to minor-attraction / youth love, often driven by traditionalism and a romantic view of the past, whilst religion also plays a major role.

This article will discuss the phenomenon of minor attraction from the perspective of the political right, outlining many figures who have made supportive statements about [[MAP]]s and (often) voluntary age-gap sexual contact.

==Young People and Fertility==

Historically and across many cultures, it was a normative or accepted practice in society for the bride or female partner to be younger than the male, as the older male would have more resources to provide for the younger partner. [[File:2094689396.jpg|thumb|left|Belle Delphine]] Based on [[Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality|evolutionary theory]], male heterosexual attraction towards pubescent and post-pubescent sexually developed / developing females (a normative aspect of human male sexuality),<ref name="hebe" /> is relatively advantageous for the survival and proliferation of the human species. The rationale is that during the period of menarche, female fecundity peaks, conferring them a reproductive advantage and greater success. In terms of the human male preference for [[Wikipedia:Neoteny|neoteny]], the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood, where men feel safe to do so they will often assert that young women represent the peak of their beauty across the life course.<ref name="hebe">See our pages on [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]], and [[Research: Prevalence]].</ref> This phenomenon is arguably evidenced in the modern, digital age, through the proliferation of online content posted to social media like [[Wikipedia:TikTok|TikTok]] and [[Wikipedia:Instagram|Instagram]], alongside subscription service porn sites like [[Wikipedia:OnlyFans|OnlyFans]], where popularity trends towards the most neotenous women who tend to be or appear teenaged.

Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Belle_Delphine|'''Belle Delphine''']], sometimes described (wrongly) as "pedobait,"<ref>[https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/coconutkitty143-diana-deets-onlyfans-instagram-pedobaiting-1193123/ Rollingstone article].</ref><ref>[https://metro.co.uk/2021/01/13/belle-delphine-responds-as-shes-accused-of-fetishising-rape-13894142/ Metro: Belle Defends Herself].</ref> OnlyFans stars like [https://wikitia.com/wiki/Sophie_Rain Sophie Rain] who reportedly made over $40million in one year by age 20, and dancing TikTokers who become stars as teenagers.<ref>Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Loren_Gray|Loren Gray]] and [[Wikipedia:Charli_D%27Amelio|Charli D'Amelio]].</ref> Similarly, on the popular public forum website Reddit, a "Best of Reddit" user poll chose "r/Jailbait" - a space featuring provocative photos of underage teenagers - as "subreddit of the year." At one point, "jailbait" was the second most common search term on Reddit, until the forum was closed, providing further evidence that attraction to teens is widespread and commonplace.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Jailbait Wiki on r/Jailbait].</ref>

Throughout history, many celebrities and idols are, or aim to be, neotenous. Given that widespread professed attraction to young people persists despite demonization, stigma, and severe penalties for those who transgress legal and (sometimes) social standards involving "minors," it is not entirely surprising to see age-gap relationships being widely documented from [[Research:_Nonwestern_Intergenerational_Relationships|cross-cultural]], [[Research:_Intergenerational_Sexual_Behaviors_in_Animals|cross-zoological]], and [[Intergenerational_Relationships_in_History|historical evidence]], but also for social conservatives to pick up on such facts to prove that adult men's attraction to young females is natural, and thus society's stigma of it is irrational.

==Support among religious groups==
[[File:Tony Alamo.jpg|thumb|left|Tony Alamo]]
Within religions, those that saw nothing wrong with intergenerational intimacy point to specific passages in their holy books and long-established legal precedents set by their religious jurists, to support their position. One such example are Islamic apologists like '''Daniel Haqiqatjou''' (of The Muslim Sceptic fame), who unlike his more “liberal” peers, outright defends [[Prophet_Muhammad|prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha]] and the practice of [[Youth-Adult_Marriage|youth-adult marriage]] by utilizing many pro-MAP arguments alongside typical traditionalist ones,<ref>https://fstube.net/w/1QoJyy4rWhp9UCcEhsyqVs</ref>. There are likely many other Islamic scholars that hold similar positions on this matter...
[[File:Berg.jpg|thumb|Berg]]
Notable Christian examples include '''Tony Alamo''' and '''Warren Jeffs''' of the ''Alamo Christian Foundation and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' (FLDs), respectively. Both preachers were claimed to have facilitated marriages involving female minors and adult males, as well as unlawful sexual contact (rendered in much mainstream literature as [[Child_Sexual_Abuse|child sex abuse]]).<ref>http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/24/arkansas.evangelist.trial/</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20110104105347/http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2010/12/01/polygamist_sect_leader_jeffs_a.html</ref> The FLDs would condone such practice under the Mormon doctrine of “celestial marriage” until 2008, when its policy was changed to allow marriages only within the legal American age. Similar accusations made against various Christian cults like the twelve tribes and the ''Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Clare Prophet'', as well as ''The Family International'' of '''David Brandt Berg''', who reportedly stated that "God was love and love was sex", so that sex should not be limited by age or relationship, according to one former member.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20210826121314/https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932</ref> The case of the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities|Twelve Tribes]] is also of interest among scholar of moral panics, due to the controversy over the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities#The_Island_Pond_raid|Island Pond raid]] that saw the judge presiding over the case dismissing every single child abuse charge over the search warrant being unconstitutional.<ref>Smith, Colin (June 26, 1984). "ACLU: Raid on Sect was Lawless act by Vermont". The Boston Globe. New York Times Company – via Newspapers.com</ref> To this day, youth-adult marriage (counting only those below the age of 18) is a widespread practice among the Christian parts of Africa and Asia, as well as across both Americas,<ref>https://www.unicef.org/lac/en/child-marriage-and-early-unions-in-latin-america-and-the-caribbean</ref> suggesting that for many Christians the practice is deemed valid within their current cultural and religious norms, although such norms have been eroding over the years as a result of recent imperialist pressure emanating from the west.

Among adherents of Judaism, it’s of note that youth-adult marriage is still practiced among many within the Hasidic community, with some members attesting over the practice and recent arrests bringing the matter to light.<ref>https://www.timesofisrael.com/brooklyn-hasidic-rabbi-said-under-investigation-over-alleged-child-marriages/</ref><ref>https://forward.com/news/476631/rabbi-yoel-roth-hasidic-child-marriage-heichel-hakodesh-breslov/</ref>

Among non-Abrahamic religions, Hinduism stands out for the presence of scholars and philosophers that see nothing wrong with the practice of youth-adult marriage as documented in the Rigveda, the Atharvaveda, the Manusmriti, and the Dharmaśāstra.<ref>https://vedkabhed.com/index.php/2014/01/03/paedophilia-in-hinduism/</ref>

==In modern times==
[[File:Matt Walsh (cropped).jpg|thumb|left|Matt Walsh]]
Over the years, support for minor attraction among various spectrum of the right moved over into the secular realm, with the rise of the alt-right and the broader manosphere bringing forth arguments questioning the concept of an age of consent and criticizing the feminist stigmatisation of man-girl love and the common heterosexual male attraction to pubescent girls (i.e., [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]]) on the basis that such feminist outrage is often disingenuous and serves only the interest of a very prejudiced subsect of older and bitter women who want to stamp out sexual competition from younger and more desirable girls for the attention of the same men.

In the alt-lite, a more recent example is that of '''Matt Walsh''', who once stated that society would benefit from having 16-year-old girls being pregnant, criticizing the current western problematization of teen pregnancy as being misleading, stating that the actual problem lies in how such births are generally out of wedlock.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/45SpixTpJLCWdcTosKSCRt</ref> In a car interview, he also questioned the entire framework of consent within sexual relationships, using the example of actress Asia Argento being accused of statutory rape of a 17-year-old boy to critique the age of consent.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/mzrK12fBhKBzwjfVcK3Bex</ref>

Alt-right personalities sympathetic to man-girl love include political commentators like ''Daily Stormer'''s founder '''Andrew Anglin''', who uses a mix of both traditionalist and secular to argue against the age of consent and ridiculing the current wave of criminalization of female teachers having sex with their students.<ref>https://archive.ph/dkvbY</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/0Jlkp</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/sJ1D4</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/5irUh</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/NYcTs</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/tf1ju</ref> Similarly, ''cozy.tv'' CEO '''Nick Fuentes''' has argued that the [[age of consent]] is a [[Feminism|feminist]] invention used by older women to block younger and more desirable (to straight men) teen girls from sexual competition, as well as to lower the birth rate by discouraging sexual reproduction among the young, thus being detrimental to the family and society as a whole.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/kuHBXgAno3gjYcSHqdscgn</ref>

Anglin is one of the few western right-wingers that has analyzed the various British “[[grooming]]” scandals with the idea of the girls being co-conspirators rather than victims, thus breaking from the general right-wing Christian feminist consensus of seeing such girls as “victims” in all cases.<ref>https://archive.is/VzwkE</ref> It should be noted though that they’re strictly speaking about man-teen girl love, as they generally condemn homosexuality and actual pedophilia (which they exclusively see an entirely homosexual phenomenon) in all its forms.<ref>https://archive.is/f5psx</ref>
[[File:NickFuentes.jpg|thumb|Nick Fuentes]]
Former Fox News commentator '''[[Tucker Carlson]]''', despite his performative condemnation of [[MAP]]s as a woke phenomenon, had a history of defending intergenerational intimacy in certain instances, such as when he called the prospect of prosecuting a female teacher being arrested for lap-dancing in front of a student in a class "deranged," saying, "there's no victim here." In a later segment discussing the same incident, he said the lap dance would be "the greatest thing that ever happened," for most teen boys.<ref>https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2014/05/05/foxs-carlson-men-understand-that-getting-sexual/199169</ref> Carlson defended a relationship between a 16-year-old boy and his older female teacher, arguing that sex between the two wasn't rape, saying, "It's ludicrous that we are calling this a rape. Are you serious?" "You're this boy, and all of a sudden you're a rape victim? You pursue an older woman, and have a relationship with her, and you're a rape victim?"<ref>https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/tucker-carlson-statutory-rape-whiny</ref>
<blockquote>
''The rapist, in this case, has made a lifelong commitment to live and take care of the person, so it is a little different. I mean, let's be honest about it," Carlson said of Jeffs' marriages, before clarifying that he's against the practice. Later, in a 2009 recording, he said, "If a guy wants to be polygamist, that's kind of his business ... I'm just telling you that arranging a marriage between a 16-year-old and a 27-year-old is not the same as pulling a stranger off the street and raping her.''<ref>https://www.businessinsider.in/in-past-segments-tucker-carlson-defended-relationships-between-teens-and-adults-and-called-out-samantha-bee-for-saying-c-/articleshow/68365055.cms</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Cheong.jpg|thumb|Tweets deleted by Cheong]]
Similar to Carlson, Malaysian influencer, '''Ian Miles Cheong'''<ref>[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]</ref> has been repeatedly criticized for his views on Adult-Minor Sexual Relations, despite performing anti-Muslim and anti-LGBT grooming outrage in more recent years.

During his short political career, '''Nathan Larson''' had the unenviable distinction of being a mildly fascistic ("libertarian") and paraphilic MAP, and unsurprisingly, he was shunned by many. Deemed as central to the incel/pedocel movement and peripheral to the [[MAP Movement]] in the late 00s and 10s, he is a highly divisive figure among MAPs, due not only to his views on race (advocating for what he termed as "benevolent white supremacy") but because of his misogyny and apparent advocacy for rape, which was likely insincere in part, but to a degree that is rarely agreed upon by most observers. As well as supporting the decriminalization of minor-adult sex, Larson also favored the legalization of [[child pornography]], polygyny, and [[incest]] in his 2008 manifesto when he was still running an election to congress.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20180606111002/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/06/01/hes-pro-incest-pedophilia-and-rape-hes-also-running-for-congress-from-his-parents-house/</ref> He was against the US Government's foreign interventionism and regime change agenda, and against what he saw as Jewish domination of the American political and financial systems. After being banned from Wikipedia, he then went on to contribute to and found various chat rooms and wikis supporting topics as disparate as inceldom and children's rights. He wound up starving himself to death in a jail cell after being charged with kidnapping and other felonies, after he had developed a relationship with a 12-year-old as a sign of protest, who was intercepted by police after she had flown out to meet him.<ref>https://www.rawstory.com/nathan-larson/</ref>
[[File:Tucker Carlson.jpg|thumb|left|Tucker Carlson]]
Within the manosphere, the view on heterosexual attraction varies wildly, from outright condemnation to the embrace of at least heterosexual [[hebephilia]] in various parts of the movement, while other show apathy to it, viewing the issue as peripheral and not worth the trouble. The case of the “pedocel” and advocacy for the lowering of the [[age of consent]] to puberty is well documented in the [[incelosphere]].

An example of such embrace comes from '''James C. Weidmann''', founder of the now-defunct pick-up blog ''Chateau Heartiste'', who justifies male attraction to female teenagers as being a natural part of male sexuality:
<blockquote>
''It is a fact of life that young teenage girls who have developed secondary sexual characteristics are desired by men of all ages, even 90-year-olds. And these exquisite nymphets, in turn, desire older men for their power. These desires are natural and frightening to the keepers of the order. They provoke the envy of the left behind, and so are condemned.''<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20120205222738/https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/march-2008-comment-winner/</ref>
</blockquote>
Among [[Masculism|masculinist]] and [[Wikipedia:Men%27s_rights_movement|men’s rights activists]] (MRAs), the views vary wildly, with past MRAs often being critical of the [[age of consent]] and how it disproportionately affects men and fuels the current stigmatization of male heterosexuality in western society. Here, the the age of consent is viewed largely as part of [[Feminism|feminist]] legislation that harms men, although few if any have ever gone to expand their critique beyond their support for hebephilia.<ref>https://archive.ph/oQejZ</ref> Another notable figure within the movement includes the (now deceased) Angry Harry, who vehemently opposed the NSPCC for its demonization of men and for what he essentially saw an abuse industry in itself,<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111012052601/http://angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111011161725/http://angryharry.com/esNSPCCNeedsToBeStopped.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111010185357/http://www.angryharry.com/esNSPCCExposedYetAgain.htm?note</ref> taking shots at the [[Research:_Secondary_Harm|iatrogenic harm]] induced by the mainstream media.<ref>https://avoiceformen.com/featured/how-the-tabloids-encourage-child-abuse/</ref> He would also go on to celebrate Michael Jackson’s non-guilty verdict as a victory for men in general; a victory over a hysterical and misandrist society.<ref>https://angryharry.mra-archive.com/Michael%20Jackson%20-%20A%20Victory%20for%20Men.htm</ref>

Another example includes former MRA and current male sexualist '''Eivind Berge''', who calls into question the [[age of consent]] and the various laws surrounding it (such as the Romio and Juliet exemptions),<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BnHZbunBEA</ref><ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknytDXqlY</ref> on the top of defending [[pedophilia]] in general (making him exceptional in the manosphere), women-boy relationships that don’t involve force or coercion but are still criminalized due to gender equalization in statutory rape laws advocated by late feminists.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q1xp5BXv30</ref> To this day, few prominent MRAs ever criticize the entire concept of an age of consent, let alone voluntary sex involving female teens.

'''Robert Lindsay''' is one such activist, with his website Night Wind, who have gone against the current dogmatic American hysteria over adult-teen intimacy and the modernist idea that “kids can’t consent to sex”,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/11/25/age-of-consent-laws-and-adult-teen-sex-then-and-now/</ref><ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/08/11/the-kids-cant-consent-to-sex-bullshit/</ref> as well as attacking the recent panic over sexting and its mainstream portrayal as another form of abuse,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/06/20/underage-girls-doing-sexual-webcamming-are-being-abused/</ref> levying arguments against the [[age of consent]] as being illogical and ideologically-driven.<ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2023/01/sex-and-scientism.html</ref><ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2016/09/americas-pornography-culture.html</ref>

In the internet era, some openly MAP-identified groups such as [[PCMA]] have permitted membership of political radicals, including those of the right. This has been protested strongly by MAPs of the authoritarian and libertarian left traditions, as well as liberals.

==Pederasty and the right-wing==

Despite the idea being seemingly contradictory and subject to humor and derision in mainstream discourse, there is a long history of association between right-wing ideology and homoerotic aesthetics (in particular, pederasty, particularly amongst West European and Japanese fascists, who draw their justifications from their respective ancient cultures).
[[File:Roman-toga-Tiberius-Paris-Louvre.jpg|thumb|left|Tiberius]]
==Past epochs==

In the European context, antecedents include ancient Greek philosopher Plato, who in his ''Phaedrus'' and ''Symposium'' extensively describes the reality of the attraction between people of the same sex (including [[pederasty]]), and the Laws that reject it and condemn it. In the ancient Roman context, pederasty was condensed down to a practice between a more dominant male and a more passive one, to preserve semblances of masculinity. With the exception of Claudius, every Julio-Claudian Roman emperor often “lapsed”, so to speak, into “anti-natural” behavior during their lifetime, or accused of such after their deaths: Julius Caesar nicknamed the “Queen of Bithynia and the wife of all husbands”<ref>https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/551722/Osgood_Caesar_and_Nicomedes_Classical_Quarterly.pdf</ref>; Augustus was called Octavia with contempt; Tiberius who in Capri preferred barely pubescent boys and called them his “little fish”<ref>https://www.walksinsiderome.com/blog/about-rome/the-scandalous-private-life-of-tiberius-caesar/</ref>; Bisexual and incestuous [[Wikipedia:Caligula|Caligula]]; Nero who castrates his teenage slave [[Wikipedia:Sporus|Sporus]] and then crowns him as royal bride. Other emperors weren’t immune to this, with Hadrian and his profound affection for [[Wikipedia:Antinous|Antinous]], to the point of deifying the latter.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

In Asia, the orientalist Leonardo Vittorio Arena points to the promiscuous activities within Buddhist monasteries of the IX century as the origin of codified [[Pederasty_in_Japanese_culture|homosexuality among Japanese samurai]], that differs from Greek pederasty in that it’s the young novice that is supposed to take the initiative with the more mature partner. This lineage of homoeroticism that starts from the Buddhist monk-novice relationships to samurai culture, culminates with nationalist author Yukio Mishima and his seppuku (i.e., ritualized suicide) of 1970.<ref>L.V. Arena Samurai Mondadori 2033</ref><ref>Omosessuali di destra, preface by Giorgio Galli pag. XIII-XIV</ref>

==Modern era: Neoclassic, romantic, and homoerotic aesthetics==
[[File:Friedrich-alfred-krupp-1854-1902.jpg|thumb|Friedrich Alfred Krupp]]
Historian George Mosse affirms the existence of a continuity in the paradigm of beauty and masculinity that starts with German art historian and archaeologist '''Johann Joachim Winckelmann,''' his detailed and rigorous descriptions of Greco-Roman art, which influenced the Third Reich’s noted sculptor '''Arno Breker''', or Hitler’s favorite architect '''Albert Speer'''.<ref>Historian George Mosse himself demonstrated in his "Sexuality and Nationalism," the very close links between the so-called third sex and the totalitarian character: G. Mosse Sexuality and Nationalism, Laterza 1986.</ref> Winckelmann’s subsequent influence on various German figures such as [[Friedrich_Nietzsche|Nietzsche]], Spengler and [[Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe|Goethe]] have been provocatively dubbed as the “tyranny of Greece over Germany”.<ref>Paolo Zanotti, Classici dell'omosessualità, BUR, 2006</ref> For his part, Winckelmann denied any relationship between perfect beauty and the desire to have sexual relations with this beauty, even if [[Giacomo Casanova]] implied that he practiced pederasty.<ref>G. Mosse. Sexuality and Nationalism, p. 15. However, Mosse concludes by noting the irony "in the fact that a homosexual, Winckelmann, had adapted Greek art to the tastes of the middle classes and provided the model for the national male stereotype." Moreover, the episode narrated by [[Giacomo Casanova]] in “Storia della mia vita” is well known: one day he went to visit Winckelmann who lived in Rome, he finds a young and beautiful boy intent on quickly pulling up his pants in an obvious attempt to compose himself in a hurry" (Casanova, Storia della mia vita, Mondadori vol. IV, pp. 262-3.)</ref> The Greek virile body, re-discovered via Winckelmann’s descriptions, would later be used by the various European nationalist movements as the normative ideal for European masculinity.

Italy and Greece were popular destinations for German conservative elites who were fascinated by classical culture. Such noblemen include literary and cultural giants like: Winckelmann (fatally stabbed by a rent boy in Trieste); count August von Platen, the inspiration for the protagonist of '''[[Thomas Mann]]’s''' [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|''Death in Venice'']]; Steel magnate '''Friedrich Alfred Krupp''' (committing suicide in 1902 following accusations that he engaged in orgies with Italian boys)<ref>http://www.giovannidallorto.com/krupp/krupp.html#grotta</ref>; Photographer '''[[Wilhelm von Gloeden]]''', whose pederastic photography work in Taormina featuring Sicilian boys is deemed seminal in male nude photography.<ref>[https://archive.org/details/censoringsexresearch Gert Hekma and Donald H. Mader. (2013). Same Sex, Different Ages: On Pederasty in Gay History, in ''Censoring Sex Research''.]</ref>
[[File:Friedrich Nietzsche.jpg|thumb|left|Nietzsche]]
[[Communism|Friedrich Engels]], one of the founding fathers of communism and close collaborator of [[Communism|Karl Marx]], threw his disgust against the abominable vice of the pederasts in "''The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State''" (1884), denouncing Greek antiquity for its homosexual activity.<ref>Historian [[Hubert Kennedy]] has famously written on Marx's homophobia.</ref> By contrast, '''[[Friedrich Nietzsche]]''', who some Nazi politicians had attempted to appropriate as "one of the pillars of right-wing thought," spoke positively of historical [[pederasty]]. In the aphorism 259 of “Human, Too Human” (1879), he wrote:
<blockquote>
''The erotic relationships of men with young people were, to a degree not accessible to our understanding, the necessary and only assumption of any virile education ''[...]''. Young people have never been treated so carefully, so lovingly, with such an absolute regard to their good again''</blockquote>

It is likely that the late [[Wikipedia:Enoch Powell|Enoch Powell]] - a former classical scholar famous for his right-wing politics, was a closeted homosexual and pederastically inclined. He was indeed a pioneer in liberalising the laws against homosexuality, although as a married man and supporter of working-class conservatism, he hid these aspects of his personality.<ref>[https://villagemagazine.ie/suffer-little-children/ Village Magazine - Powell], [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/16/double-lives-a-history-of-sex-and-secrecy-at-westminster The Guardian - Powell]</ref>

==Germany: The pioneers of gay rights activism, gay German youth, and Nazism==
[[File:Adolf brand.jpg|thumb|Adolf brand]]
The German Empire in the late 19th century served as the birthplace of the [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|initial homosexual movement]], with figures like '''Karl Heinrich Ulrichs''' and '''Magnus Hirschfeld''' pioneering gay rights activism. A lawyer and journalist, Ulrichs publicly declared his sexual preferences in 1867, advocating for the repeal of repressive laws before dying in exile in 1895. Hirschfeld succeeded him, establishing a Scientific-Humanitarian Committee in 1897 and an Institute for Sexual Research in 1919, providing medical, psychological, and legal support for homosexuals, though the institute was later targeted and destroyed by the Nazis in 1933. Notable signatories to Hirschfeld's petition to repeal paragraph 175 of German law criminalizing “acts against nature” included Stefan Zweig, Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy, and '''[[Thomas Mann]]'''. Despite these efforts, a wave of homophobia swept Germany following the [[Wikipedia:Eulenburg_affair|Eulenburg affair of 1907-09]].<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> Concurrently, the Anarchist '''[[Wikipedia:Adolf_Brand|Adolf Brand]]''' founded ''Der Eigene'' in 1896, the first homosexual periodical in the world, advocating "outing" famous gay men and challenging social norms. Brand's anarchist radicalism contrasted with Hirschfeld's [[Communism|socialism]], and his writings have been reclaimed by romanticist anarchists (although they often omit his nationalist and elitist views).<ref>To read Adolf Brand's thought yourself (in English), see his writings translated in the [https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/wjhm20/22/1-2 ''Journal of Homosexuality'', Volume 22, Issue 1-2] (1992). E.g. Brand, A. (1992). [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_16 Friend-Love as a Cultural Factor: A Word to Germany's Male Youth (1930)]. ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 22(1–2), 145–154.</ref>

In 1900, Brand published the first anthology of gay poetry in Germany, called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieblingminne_und_Freundesliebe_in_der_Weltliteratur ''Lieblingminne und Freundesliebe in der Weltliteratur''] [Favourite love and love of friends in world literature]. It was compiled by '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisar_von_Kupffer# Elisar von Kupffer]''', who wrote [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 a politically charged preface] which argued in favor of a homosexuality that is not just "tolerated" by society, but an integral part of society.<ref>Kupffer, E. von. (1992). [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 The Ethical-Political Significance of Lieblingminne (1899)]. ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 22(1–2), 35–48.</ref> For '''von Kupffer''', homosexuality brought with it homosocial bonds that strengthened society in ways that heterosexual relationships could not. He argued against what he perceived as Magnus Hirschfeld's notion of a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender third sex], and opposed a notion of "gay" which hinged on a feminized model of male behavior.

During World War 1, von Kupffer moved to Ticino, where he established himself as a butcher and muralist in Locarno, Switzerland. There, he made photographic studies of boys for use in the creation of his paintings, and transformed their villa in Minusio, near Lake Maggiore, into an opulent collection of art, the ''Sanctuarium Artis Elisarion''. As gay historian Harry Oosterhuis put it, "The walls of this temple and museum in one consisted of a monumental painting by Kupffer of eighty-four strikingly similar naked ephebic youths in various positions."<ref>[https://cris.maastrichtuniversity.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/129225040/Oosterhuis_2000_Elisar_von_Kupffer_Gay_Histories_and_Cultures.pdf Oosterhuis, H. (2000). Elisar von Kupffer (1872-1942). In G. E. Haggerty (Ed.), Gay Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia (pp. 524-525). Garland Publishing].</ref>
[[File:Benedict Friedlaender.jpg|thumb|left|Benedict Friedlaender]]
In 1903, Brand, militant activist of Jewish ancestry [[Wikipedia:Benedict_Friedlaender|'''Benedict Friedlaender''']], and ten colleagues founded the homosexual organization [[Wikipedia:Gemeinschaft_der_Eigenen|''Gemeinschaft der Eigenen'' (GdE)]], usually translated as Community of the Special.<ref>To read Benedict Friedlaender's thought yourself (in English), see his writings translated in the [https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/wjhm20/22/1-2 ''Journal of Homosexuality'', Volume 22, Issue 1-2] (1992).</ref> The GdE rejected Hirschfeld's understanding of homosexuality as a "third sex," "inverted" sexuality, or effeminate disposition. Instead, they emphasized the masculinity of male-male sexuality, as did the Nobel prize winning homosexuality (and pederasty) defender [[Andre Gide]] in his 1924 ''Corydon''. Whilst divided over nationalism, many members of the GdE found alignment in their appraisal for the classical Greek practice of [[pederasty]] as an important social institution. The GdE spurned Hirschfeld's efforts at law reform and coalition-building with the Social Democrats and the feminist movement, adopting instead a diffusely anarchist outlook inspired by Max Stirner's egoist individualism, and the sweeping cultural criticism of [[Friedrich Nietzsche]].

[[Wikipedia:Gustav_Wyneken|'''Gustav Wyneken''']] was a German pedagogue and writer, who in 1921 published "Eros," an essay that exalted love between boys. Gustav Wyneken was neither to the far-right nor a left-wing extremist, but his influence on educational theory was profound. His ideas of “youth culture” and “pedagogical eros” gave inspiration to movements like the ''Wandervogel'' (officially founded in 1901), and Brand's GdE.

'''[[Wikipedia:Wandervogel|The Wandervogel movement]]''' quickly became the prominent youth movement in the nation, aiming to be an organization in constant empathy with the natural environment. It emphasized freedom from adult supervision, spontaneity, and responsibility towards others, alongside a spirit of adventure, while ideologically adopting a strong nationalist approach rooted in tradition and highlighting Germany's Teutonic (mythical pagan) roots, inspired by ancient Greece and the naturalist movement.<ref>There is some evidence that communities of intergenerational same-sex lovers were created through this movement. See, Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link). For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras, where she writes: "Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

In 1912, journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|'''Hans Blüher''']], a leading figure in this right-wing youth homosexual movement, published an essay titled "The Wandervogel Movement as an Erotic Phenomenon," subtitled "Contribution to the Recognition of Sexual Inversion." His writings have rarely been translated in English, but as of 2024, an English pamphlet created by a relatively obscure (defunct) [[MAP_Movement|French MAP political organization]], had become freely available online.<ref>[https://annas-archive.org/md5/70ceb0b6789190cc243a792acf04659f Hans Blüher, Heinrich Hoffstiepel [translator<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Michel Meigniez de Cacqueray [prelude<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Konrad Wolff, Michel Caignet, ''Family and Male Fraternity: A Theory of the Eros'' (Les Dioscures, 1994 [1917<nowiki>]</nowiki>)].</ref> Blüher clearly states that the common denominator binding these young males together is Eros, meaning erotic attraction between individuals of the same sex. He further asserts that homoerotic impulses are fundamental for forging bonds of masculine friendship, with its parallel celebration of camaraderie among males creating a "pure community of men," thereby assuming a meaningful cultural role. For Blüher, this sublimated homosexual erotic tension manifests as an excess of energy, a vital force that, unable to find physical expression, culminates in the "creative genius" of a “Mannerbund,” or society of men.
[[File:Hans Bluher.jpg|thumb|Hans Blüher]]
[[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|Blüher]] would later revisit the same themes between 1917 and 1919, with two volumes of "The Role of Eroticism in Male Society." His books became cult texts among homosexuals of his era, including some Nazi leaders, notably Ernst Rohm. Later in 1926, the lawyer '''Erich Ebermayer''' published "Youth and Eros," an explicit defense of adolescent homosexuality and pederasty; a text publicly appreciated by '''[[Thomas Mann]]''' himself.

The homoeroticism as represented by these movements, had less to do with free love than with building a relational hierarchy between men, where the selection of an elite to lead the masses would take place among males. This idea of a fraternity of men would essentially separate the boy from the mother's (and women's) negative influences, and raising a boy to be a “real man” with masculine vigor. Such values would be inculcated in the boy via scouting and other hierarchical organizations. Pederasty and fraternal relationships would thus serve to morally reinvigorate what these thinkers saw as a morally decadent society.<ref>https://pinko.online/pinko-2/reactionary-masculinity</ref>

Blüher's ideas about the "manly alliance" between males, against the woman's "devirilizing" influence, came to be viewed with hostility by the Nazi hierarchies. This was especially after the night of the long knives physically liquidated the group of people most sensitive to Blüher's theories: homosexual themselves. In a secret speech given by Heinrich Himmler to the SS in 1937, Blüher's ideas were expressly indicated as dangerous and to be opposed.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.culturagay.it/cg/viewDoc.php?id=1</ref>

==D’Annunzio’s enterprise in Fiume==
<blockquote>
''Defend the beauty! This is your only office. Defend the dream that is in you!''

'''Gabriele D’Annunzio'''
</blockquote>

Futurism, an Italian cultural and artistic movement that had its start in the early 20th century, held a more libertine attitude on sexuality for its time, where instead of a rigid heterosexuality-homosexuality binary there was, if anything, a clear distinction between active and passive sexuality. Futurists ultimately only despised effeminacy with its cheesy and too languid attitudes.
[[File:Gabriele-di-annunzio.jpg|thumb|Gabriele D'Annunzio]]
The hypocrisy in this regard had a significant exception in 1919-20, during the enterprise of Fiume (now Rijeka) by rebel units of the Royal Italian Army under the command of the poet-warrior [[Wikipedia:Gabriele_D%27Annunzio|'''Gabriele D’Annunzio''']], at the time a city contested between the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (i.e., monarchist Yugoslavia) following World War 1. His occupation, motivated by Italian irredentism, gave life to the '''Italian Regency of Carnaro''', which would last for sixteen months. To give us direct testimony is the bisexual writer '''Giovanni Comisso''', who participated in the action when he was 24 years old: Transgression of the norms, mass rebelliousness, sexual freedom, homosexuality, drug use, originality of attitudes, were the main characteristics of this counter-society.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

The occupation of the Istrian city constitutes a transgressive social experiment, especially in terms of sexuality. Futurist '''Mario Carli''', in his book ''"Trillirì"'' (1922), says in no uncertain terms that pushing many volunteers to Fiume would have been precisely the open sexuality, hence the presence of the widest variety of people, "from the colonel looking for women to the pederast looking for boys".
<blockquote>
''One day from the window of his office D'Annunzio saw the Arditi ''[Royal Italian elite troops]'' going two by two towards the hill and pointed to them saying: "Look at my soldiers, they go in pairs like Pericles' soldiers.''

'''Giovanni Commiso''', ''Le mie stagioni'' (2002)
</blockquote>
The Fiume occupation led by Gabriele d’Annunzio was not only a political revolt but also a cultural experiment characterized by a bold embrace of libertarian ideals and radical social norms. D’Annunzio, often referred to as the Comandante-Vate, infused the enterprise with a spirit of transgression and celebration of freedom, epitomized in the shared vision of the Futurist movement. The atmosphere encouraged "unlimited enjoyments, amusements, and a free flow of desires," promoting uninhibited behavior devoid of traditional moral constraints. After his iconic battle cry, “Eia! Eia! Eia! Alalà!!,” d’Annunzio would famously conclude with the exclamation, “Long live Love!”—a declaration reflecting the revolutionary ethos of the movement.
[[File:Giovanni comisso.jpg|thumb|left|Giovanni Comisso]]
The Charter of Carnaro, the constitution proclaimed during the occupation, exemplified the radical vision of Fiume’s rebels. It provided for universal male and female suffrage, freedom of opinion, religion, and sexual orientation, and went further to decriminalize homosexuality, nudism, and drug use. These provisions marked Fiume as a haven of progressive ideals that challenged the conservative norms of early 20th-century Europe.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/https://web.archive.org/web/20140102192356/http://ita.anarchopedia.org/Aspetti_libertari_dell'impresa_di_Fiume</ref> The enterprise would come to an end when the rebels, in opposition to the treaty of Rapallo between Italy and Yugoslavia, were forcefully removed from the city by the Italian royal army in the Bloody Christmas of 1920.

Despite its abrupt conclusion, the occupation of Fiume had a profound and lasting impact on Italian history and politics. It revealed the fragility of the Italian government, exposing its inability to handle radical domestic uprisings. Moreover, the nationalist organizations that supported the occupation became instrumental in the formation of the Italian Fascist Party. The cultural and political strategies employed by d’Annunzio—such as mass spectacles, charismatic leadership, and the fusion of political ideology with theatricality—profoundly influenced Benito Mussolini and shaped the core tenets of Fascism.

Fiume’s libertarian experiment remains a paradoxical legacy: while its progressive aspects symbolized freedom and defiance of conventional norms, its influence on Fascism underscores how radical movements can serve as stepping stones for authoritarian regimes. The enterprise continues to be studied as a defining moment in the interplay between utopian idealism and the rise of modern nationalism.

==France: Pederasty and WW2 collaborationism==
<blockquote>
''Sociological problem: why so many pederasts among the collaborators?''

'''Jean Guéhenno'''
</blockquote>

Journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Robert_Brasillach|'''Robert Brasillach''']], after his indictment for treason by the liberated French government, was shot in February 1945. His case is among the most unique ones, for he was condemned not for his actions so much as for his thoughts: He adhered to national socialist ideology and doctrine, defined by him as “the poetry of the XX century”. Among his contemporaries, many attest to his homosexuality.
[[File:Robert-brasillach.jpg|thumb|Robert Brasillach]]
Chief among them are Louis-Ferdinand Céline, Jean-Louis Bory, and Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, who thought of him as an effeminate pederast, with Bory using Brasillach as a prime example of the strong homoerotic nature of the collaborationist environment during the German occupation of Paris as part of his 1976 documentary. '''Jean-Paul Sartre''' thought that Drieu himself was a pederast, depicting him as a visionary dandy and lover of youthful rent-boys, but also of strong and virile German soldiers.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

Dominique Fernandez argues that the writer's homosexuality was latent - repressed, and therefore extremely harmful -, a fact that he began to participate in the annual Nuremberg ceremonies and visit the campsites of Hitler's youth from which he returned each time literally ecstatic; his homophilia as well as aesthetic tension towards homoeroticism constitutes, according to Mosse, an exemplary case about the homoerotic impulses widespread throughout Nazi culture.

Brasillach’s entire literary work revolves around the concept of strong male friendship, the camaraderie among men free from the hindrance of female presence, often explicitly referencing pederastic relationships. This is particularly evident in his first book from 1931, "''Présence de Virgile''," an authentic apology for homoeroticism: "Virgil loved to surround himself with young men. A boy of perfect beauty, who wrote poems and sang them while playing the flute, lived in his house. And often Virgil was captivated by the ambiguous charm of his own sex... Anyone who found this way of loving or this form of pleasure natural." Regarding his admired and intimate friendship with his contemporary (and future brother-in-law) Maurice Bardèche, as well as a figure in the French radical right, many gossiped, soon nicknaming them "Brasillecher and Bardache" (lèche in French means "lick," while bardache/bardassa refers to a young male prostitute).<ref>Alice Kaplan Processo e morte di un fascista. Il caso di Robert Brasillach, il Mulino 2003 pag.25</ref>
<blockquote>
''Children who will one day become twenty-year-old young men will learn with dark wonder about the existence of this exaltation, the youth camps, the glory of the past, the parades, the heroes fallen in combat, the friendship among young people of all nations... Communism, too, has its own greatness, equally exhilarating. It may even be that, in a thousand years, the two Revolutions of the twentieth century will be confused.''

'''Robert Brasillach'''<ref>cited in P. Serant Romanticismo fascista Sugar 1961, pag.253</ref>
</blockquote>

Apart from Brasillach, there are other French collaborationists who were homosexuals, such as [[Roger Peyrefitte]], author of the book “''Les Amitiés particulières''”, who faced accusations of collaboration over his diplomatic work for the Vichy regime.

==The post-war French New Right==

Like the subculture of French collaborationists in WW2-era France, pederasty and the appreciation of youth flourished alongside MAP advocacy in what would be termed as the ''Nouvelle droite'' (New Right).

<blockquote>
''The far-right press is hysterically hostile to “paedophiles”. They are in his eyes the enemy N. 1, the incarnation of the abhorred Left, and that makes me laugh because I have known, I know a very large number of “paedophiles” and they were, they are almost all Right or far-Right.''

'''[[Gabriel Matzneff]]'''<ref>[https://cnmnewz.com/2021/01/07/down-the-rabbit-hole-of-right-wing-pedophile-networks/ Down the rabbit hole of right wing pedophile networks]</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Joseph Douce variant.jpg|thumb|left|Doucé]]
'''[[Joseph Doucé]]''', a Flemish Belgian psychologist and (defrocked) Baptist minister, openly declared himself a homosexual in 1976, and founded the “''Centre of Christ the Liberator''” (Center du Christ liberateur) in Paris, a refuge for homosexuals, transgender people, sadomasochists, and pedophiles. He was a co-founder of [[ILGA]] (then called the “International Lesbian and Gay Association”), and in 1982 created a publishing firm called ''Lumière et Justice'' which would published under his direction. One such book was “''Paedophilia in question''” in which Doucé “develops scabrous theses and explains wanting to decriminalize paedophilia”.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://www.europe1.fr/societe/letrange-disparition-du-pasteur-douce-il-y-a-peu-de-chances-que-lon-connaisse-un-jour-la-verite-3838508</ref> Whilst Doucé himself is not explicitly known for being on the political Right, he managed the magazine subscriptions of the monthly ''Gaie France'' magazine created by far-right MAP advocate [https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] (see below). Doucé was connected to a British born priest named '''Nicolas Glencross''' who, since 1948, served a small parish in Nièvre, Saint-Léger-des-Vignes. While serving as a pastor to defend LGBT people, Glencross was also involved in nude photography of boys in places like India, Peru, and Sri Lanka, where he paid each child 50 francs.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.humanite.fr/node/79900&prev=search&pto=au</ref> Glencross also enjoyed drawing children naked. Prior to his arrest in 1990 and the subsequent police raid at Nièvre, Glencross kept contact with French journalist and publisher Michel Caignet.

[https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] was a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic and holocaust denier<ref>Nicolas Lebourg, « L'invention d'une doxa néo-fasciste : le rôle de l'avant-garde nationaliste-révolutionnaire. Idéologie négationniste, propagandes anti-américaine, anti-immigration, anti-juive »</ref> who, in 1986, founded the monthly ''Gaie France'' in which he proclaimed love for boys, with the aim of having a gay magazine with ideals closer to the French ''Nouvelle droite'' (“New Right”). '''Paul Raisant''' led ''Association of Friends of Gaie France'', which published a bulletin called ''Sparte, homosexualité et tradition'' in 1987. Nouvelle droite journalist '''Guillaume Faye''', writer '''Pierre Gripari''', militant atheist and gay rights activist '''Claude Courouve''', and far-right publisher '''Phillipe Randa''', son of novelist Peter Randa, were among its contributors,<ref>http://books.google.fr/books?id=5OuiSMd_HJsC&pg=PT121&dq=guillaume+faye+gaie+france&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=1rP0Up2hB6aO0AXw4oGYCw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=guillaume%20faye%20gaie%20france&f=false</ref> whilst Doucé himself managed the magazine’s subscriptions.<ref>https://www.cairn.info/revue-pardes-2005-1-page-49.htm?contenu=resume</ref> By ministerial decree dated 27 May 1992, for ''Gaie France'' the sale to minors was banned on charges of "inciting paedophilia"; it stopped publications the following year;<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000527183</ref> in 1997 Caignet was tried for the dissemination of pornographic films with minors produced in Colombia three years prior, under the name “Toro Bravo” for distribution to his readers, getting sentenced to four years in prison.

==Present-day==
[[File:Michael Kuehnen.jpg|thumb|Michael Kuehnen]]
In 1991, at the age of 36, [[Wikipedia:Michael_K%C3%BChnen|'''Michael Kühnen''']], the undisputed leader of German neo-Nazism in the 1970s and 1980s, died. He had AIDS and was homosexual in orientation.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> In 1986, he published an essay titled "''National Socialism and Homosexuality,''" referring to the homoerotic tradition within some male unions within the SA (''Sturmabteilung''). An "anti-fag rebellion" was begun by a group of his former followers; even his deputy, Thomas Brehl, was later declared a "fag" and marginalized from the neo-Nazi movement. To his former comrades, Kühnen urged his comrades to free themselves from the petty-bourgeois mentalities of Judeo-Christian origin. Instead, they should draw inspiration from the pagan teachings of nature's vitality, where homosexuality has always had its place and meaning.

Kühnen leadership remained unchallenged until 1990, when he proposed to the Iraqi ambassador to send volunteers to fight alongside Saddam Hussein's forces during the Gulf War. In 1986, while serving a prison sentence for extremism, he entrusted his friend and comrade '''Michel Caignet''' with the printing of the pamphlet. In it, Kühnen argued that homosexuality is a completely natural, hereditary predisposition, destined by nature for a small elite of men so that they can dedicate themselves to the service of community and cultural development without the burden and conditioning of reproductive sexuality. This perspective was not unprecedented in right-wing thought, as the early German gay rights activists of imperial Germany held similar views.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20141107202734/http://sororite-aryenne.com/michael-kuhnen-homosexualite-et-national-socialisme/; According to this pamphlet, unlike females, males have an indispensable cultural function, and their readiness for even extreme sacrifice is directed towards their peer group, not towards the family as women naturally do. In men, there is a surplus of sexual power that cannot be exhausted in the brief time spent with women. Therefore, this excess sexuality, when set free, should be channeled in favor of friends and in service to cultural society: the best and most useful solution is to use this libido additionally in relationships with other males, preferably with sexually mature adolescent boys. It further emphasizes that homosexuals play a pioneering role within society and the culture they support; being free from constraining ties with women and family, they can dedicate all their energies to embodying communal values. Anti-homosexual hostility developed within National Socialism due to the bourgeois mentality filled with moral prejudices of Judeo-Christian origin. Concludes Kühnen, masculine homosexuals ultimately prove to be the most suitable for leadership and indispensable for continuing the anti-bourgeois and anti-democratic struggle; unlike women, whose recognized role is predominantly private, homosexual males are assigned a prominent and socially significant public-cultural role.</ref>
[[File:Pim Fortuyn - May 4.jpg|thumb|left|Pim Fortuyn, pictured 2 days before his assassination]]
'''[[Wikipedia:Pim_Fortuyn|Pim Fortuyn]]''' (1948-2002), the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered on the 6th of May 2002, was a powerful advocate for pedophilia, standing to gain around 20% of the votes in the 2002 Dutch general election prior to his death. His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalization of drug laws, and his open homosexuality were well-known. Despite his approval of pedophilia not being a secret, Dutch journalists covering his election campaign ignored it. Ireen Van Engelen, an anti-pedophile campaigner in Holland, expressed frustration, stating, "I have been writing to journalists around the country for months as Fortuyn's popularity grew, asking them to challenge him on his views about pedophilia. But none of them dared. I also wrote to ministers, but none of them were interested. It's a disgrace." Fortuyn's own words shed light on his beliefs, as he wrote, "In the 1970s and 1980s, [[Edward_Brongersma|Brongersma]] slowly but surely gained ground...This enlightened point of view has meanwhile been abandoned... We are far removed from the understanding that Brongersma tried to foster, to our own detriment, for that matter." In his autobiographical work "''Babyboomers''", Fortuyn revealed early sexual experiences with adult males, justifying his stance on legality based on personal enjoyment of such experiences in his childhood when he was 5 years old.<ref>https://brongersma.info/Fortuyn_favoured_depraved</ref>

The American political science researcher and right-wing columnist, blogger, and online personality '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hanania Richard Hanania]''', has been critical of the expansive and incorrect use of the term "pedophile," now routinely used in the context of anyone expressing attraction to a person under 18-years old, rather than a preferential attraction to people before puberty (generally aged 13 or younger).<ref>On the idea of 'Concept Creep', or the meaning of certain concepts such as "trauma" and "pedophilia" being expanded far beyond their original purview, see [https://www.jstor.org/stable/43865764 Frank Furedi on Concept Creep (2016)], and historian Vern Bullough's "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00aug15e_the_p_smear.htm the pedophile smear]".</ref> Over time, Hanania has become critical of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_presidency_of_Donald_Trump Trump Regime] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_Again MAGA Movement], expressly disavowing his past racist and eugenicist views prior to 2023. Having a prominent Twitter (or X) presence, and having moved politically in far-right circles and even been one of several hundred contributors to the writing of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Project 2025], Hanania's shifting politics make him a highly nuanced and unusual right-wing intellectual and figure.<ref>Hanania, Richard (August 7, 2023). [https://quillette.com/2023/08/07/my-journey-out-of-extremism/ "My Journey Out of Extremism"]. ''Quillette''.</ref> In relation to [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s, and the expansion of victim culture, Hanania has written thoughtful articles such as ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"'' (2013).<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/hitler-demi-moore-and-other-pedophiles ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"''] (Substack, 2013).</ref> Alongside the independent journalist [https://www.mtracey.net '''Michael Tracey'''], Hanania has been critical of the conspiratorial obsession and [[moral panic]] associated with [[Jeffrey Epstein]].<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/the-beautiful-ironies-of-epstein ''The Beautiful Ironies of Epstein Conspiracy Theories''] (Substack, 2025).</ref>

In an interview from a January 2016 episode of the podcast Drunken Peasants, '''[[Milo Yiannopoulos]]''' explained how sexual relationships between 13-year-old boys and adult men and women can "happen perfectly consensually", because some 13-year-olds are sexually and emotionally matured enough to consent to sex with adults. He used his own experience as an example, pointing out that he was mature enough to be capable of giving consent at a young age. He also correctly stated that "pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to somebody 13 years old, who is sexually mature" but rather that "pedophilia is attraction to children who have not reached puberty." Later in the interview, after his previous comments received some pushback from the hosts, he stated: "I think the age of consent law is probably about right, that is probably roughly the right age ... but there are certainly people who are capable of giving consent at a younger age, I certainly consider myself to be one of them."<ref>https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milo-yiannopoulos-on-pedophilia-and-this-arbitrary_b_58ab52a5e4b029c1d1f88d77</ref>
[[File:Milo Yiannopoulos pride.jpg|thumb|Milo Yiannopoulos]]
Yiannopoulos thereafter claimed that his statements were merely attempts to cope with his own victimhood, yet in 2019, he appeared to agree with [[Jordan Peterson]] in affirming the content of Rind et al, a study that challenges the assumption of universal trauma.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20220815210303/https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/18gt</ref>

Following his defensive comments in 2017, Yiannopoulos was later criticized for attending Hollywood "boat parties" and "house parties" in which boys he described as "very young – very young" were engaged in pederasty but failing to report the abusers to the authorities or to identify them during an appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience. When asked about this by Ryan Lizza of New York magazine, Yiannopoulos said he "didn't check anyone's I.D.s." and that he "had no idea what the ages of any of those people at the parties were." He stated that when he said "very young" he was assuming that they were sixteen or seventeen. He reiterated that he doesn't "advocate for any illegal behavior" or excuse it. When, on 10 March, an additional video emerged in which he said on a 2015 episode of Gavin McInnes's show that minor-adult sex is "really not that big a deal. You can't let it ruin your life," Yiannopoulos was criticized for mocking [[child sexual abuse]] victims by calling them "whinging selfish brats" for [[Repressed_memory|"suddenly" remembering they were abused]] and "suddenly" deciding it was a problem 20 years after the event occurred. He also stated that a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual.<ref>https://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/how-alt-right-fellow-traveller-milo-yiannopoulos-cracked-up-the-right</ref><ref>https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/milo-yiannopoulos-described-sexual-abuse-victims-as-whinging</ref>

==Reasons for supporting the right among MAPs and AAMs==

Many advocates within the political right and centre-right argue for (limited or full) acceptance of MAPs (Minor-Attracted Persons), and/or voluntary sexual contact and relationships between minors and legal adults, citing various rationales. Some, interested more in logic, go on to view the concept of the arbitrary age of consent as illogical. Moreover, there's a prevalent sentiment against government interference in private matters, a stance particularly common among libertarians. Additionally, there's a reactionary attitude towards [[Feminism|feminism]], often viewed as hostile towards male heterosexuality and responsible for the current oppression of MAPs in the developed world as well as for advancing the modern age of consent. Some individuals also advocate for MAPs out of contrarianism or as a rejection of what they perceive as a modernist agenda that undermines traditional values, such as the preservation of the family as society’s basic unit. Unfortunately, many often limit their advocacy to the acceptance of hebephilia while trashing pedophilia, by using appeals to nature to point to their attraction being “natural” and thus “non-paraphilic”, unlike pedophilia, although such points seldom convince antis as to why they should carve out an exception for their hatred to teen-lovers. In a sense, anti-pedophilic hebephiles and ephebophiles share similarities with “ironic lolicons” in their bid for societal acceptance by striving to distance themselves from the “pedophilia” label.

Critics of the political Left's emphasis on egalitarianism and equality in all contexts argue that the leftist talking point of age-gap relationships being inherently abusive due to power imbalances derives from the same principles of radical individualism and absolute bodily autonomy used by pro-C MAPs in political discourse, with the critics pointing out that power imbalances are inherent in all personal relationships, thus questioning whether MAPs should engage in the dialectic of radical individualism and bodily autonomy instead of breaking said dialectic.

Within the community of male boylovers, certain aspects hold appeal. The neoclassical aesthetic, with its emphasis on beauty and harmony, resonates deeply. Moreover, there's a [[Erastoconservatism|fascination with the pedagogic tradition]] underpinning historical pederastic practices, where older mentors guided and educated younger individuals. Additionally, the concept of a mature man forming an intimate bond with a young boy, sharing experiences, and understanding of masculinity, serves as a cornerstone of attraction for some. These elements contribute to the multifaceted discourse surrounding rightist MAP advocacy within different forms of attraction.

===Old-school Republicans and Libertarians===

Just as boylovers can not be fit neatly into a singular [[Communism|radical leftist mould]], loved boys, or men with such experiences, have gone on to support a broad range of political philosophies. Gay historian and professor [[William Percy]] is one such example, as a lifelong Republican (prior to the current era). Despite being a supporter of the more conventionally conservative party (purportedly on the grounds of foreign policy), he expressed support for multiple sexually deviant and dissident groups throughout American society, leaving a legacy of constructive criticism toward what might be seen as reductive and essentializing tendencies in liberal sex dogma.<ref>[https://umassmedia.com/24238/uncategorized/professor-percy-on-why-i-am-a-republican/ The republicanism of William Percy]</ref> He is joined by libertarians such as Free Talk Live host Ian Bernard, who in 2010, defended his own underage relationships against a torrent of disdain from listeners.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH Ian Bernard, 2010]</ref>

==Editorial Commentary: Relevance of right-wing ideology, and discussion among MAPs==

Among political issues, right-wing ideology is a highly polarizing topic. MAPs are no exception from this rule, since their political opinions run the gamut of every part of the political spectrum, i.e. the general right-left divide is applicable to MAPs too. Some MAPs are non-partisan and instead see their MAP identity as the base for their beliefs.

Conversely, others see their [[MAP]] identity as secondary to their broader political convictions. Given the absence of a comprehensive critical theory addressing the needs and concerns of all segments of the minor attracted community, it's common for MAPs to integrate their political beliefs into their activism, hence many MAP rights activists draw upon various (and at times, contradictory) ideological frameworks, whether left or right-leaning, to advance the cause of MAP acceptance.

Among leftist and center-left MAPs, there exists a palpable aversion to anything associated with the political right, driven by historical antecedents and contemporary ideological clashes. This sentiment stems partly from a rejection of fascism and religion, and a commitment to countercultural movements (such as the sexual freedom and gay rights movements) that emerged in the post-war era, from which 1st-wave [[MAP Movement|MAP activism]] first emerges. Additionally, the influence of identitarian and secular-liberal politics among contemporary leftist movements has further entrenched this animosity towards right-wing ideologies. Left-leaning MAPs sometimes align themselves with broader leftist movements, such as sexual liberation, LGBTQ+ and secular liberalism, viewing them as allies in the fight for societal acceptance, individual autonomy and the liberation of MAPs as the continuation of a sexual, or identity-revolution.

In other cases, Left and Anarchist-leaning MAPs show open hostility towards the LGBTQ+ project, liberal values and some aspects of identity-based politics, characterizing them as reactionary.

MAPs who reject broader left-wing and liberal activism, may feel marginalized within the movements and perceive them as ineffective or even detrimental to their cause. Heterosexual girl-lovers, for instance, may view mainstream [[Feminism|feminism]] as obstructing the acceptance of their attractions and see little incentive to align with movements that display outright hostility to them and fail to address their concerns. Some MAPs, particularly those influenced by internet culture and "chan" imageboard communities, reject leftist politics altogether, viewing them as dogmatic and out of touch with reality. Right-leaning MAPs point to a variety of factors to justify their disassociation from leftist circles. They highlight increasing opposition to [[Queer|queer ideologies in Western societies]] and alleged failures of 1st-wave MAP activists in addressing man-girl love preceding their downfall in the 1990s. Secularization of anti-CSA dogma into a secular political "theology" in its own right throughout the Anglosphere and much of continental Europe is also a concern, as is the left’s realpolitik in perpetuating its own brand of [[pedophobia]]. Additionally, they perceive the mainstream left and [[Rainbow_Revisionism|LGBTQ+ lobby as hostile towards age-gap intimate relationships]], particularly heterosexual ones where the younger partner is female. They may argue that aligning with the left is counterproductive to their goals, and question if MAP rights activism is even safe restricting itself solely to left-radical politics.

Amidst this complex landscape of political ideologies, MAPs face the challenge of adapting to a rapidly changing political climate while striving for social acceptance and legal recognition. Recognizing the limitations of rigid ideological adherence, MAP rights activists must draw from the successes of diverse social movements throughout history and remain open to evolving strategies in pursuit of their goals. Only through such adaptability and resilience can the MAP rights movement hope to effect meaningful change in an imperfect world.

==See also==

[[Republicans are the real pedophiles]]

==External links==

*[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: French]][[Category:History & Events: Dutch]][[Category:History & Events: Danish]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 2000s]][[Category:History & Events: 2010s]][[Category:History & Events: 2020s]]

The Right-wing and Minor Attraction

2026-09-03T03:02:10Z

Prue: /* Germany: The pioneers of gay rights activism, gay German youth, and Nazism */

<div style="margin-left: 25px; float: right; width: 40%;">__TOC__</div>{{Template:Adj}}'''[[Wikipedia:Right-wing_politics|Right-wing politics]]''' is the range of political ideologies that view certain social orders and hierarchies as inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically supporting this position based on natural law, economics, authority, property, religion, or tradition. Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences or competition in market economies.

Right-wing politics are considered the counterpart to [[Communism|left-wing politics]], and the left–right political spectrum is one of the most widely accepted. The right includes social conservatives and fiscal conservatives as well as right-libertarians. "Right" and "right-wing" have been variously used as compliments and pejoratives describing neoliberal, conservative, and fascist economic and social ideas.

It has become fashionable among [[Jeffrey Epstein|Epstein-Truthers]] on the left to promote what has been described as "[[Wiktionary:pedocon|pedocon theory]]" - the idea that right-wing politics is associated with sexually predatory behavior towards women and "children".

==Minor attraction and the Right Wing==

Despite [[Vigilantism|pedo-bashing]] being a favorite pastime among different identarian groups, many such accusations of [[Anti|MAP tendencies and projection / hypocrisy among right-wingers]], are partially or fully based on the truth. In the case of the political right, within the contexts of both Asian and European politics (and its derivatives), there's a long-storied connection to minor-attraction / youth love, often driven by traditionalism and a romantic view of the past, whilst religion also plays a major role.

This article will discuss the phenomenon of minor attraction from the perspective of the political right, outlining many figures who have made supportive statements about [[MAP]]s and (often) voluntary age-gap sexual contact.

==Young People and Fertility==

Historically and across many cultures, it was a normative or accepted practice in society for the bride or female partner to be younger than the male, as the older male would have more resources to provide for the younger partner. [[File:2094689396.jpg|thumb|left|Belle Delphine]] Based on [[Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality|evolutionary theory]], male heterosexual attraction towards pubescent and post-pubescent sexually developed / developing females (a normative aspect of human male sexuality),<ref name="hebe" /> is relatively advantageous for the survival and proliferation of the human species. The rationale is that during the period of menarche, female fecundity peaks, conferring them a reproductive advantage and greater success. In terms of the human male preference for [[Wikipedia:Neoteny|neoteny]], the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood, where men feel safe to do so they will often assert that young women represent the peak of their beauty across the life course.<ref name="hebe">See our pages on [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]], and [[Research: Prevalence]].</ref> This phenomenon is arguably evidenced in the modern, digital age, through the proliferation of online content posted to social media like [[Wikipedia:TikTok|TikTok]] and [[Wikipedia:Instagram|Instagram]], alongside subscription service porn sites like [[Wikipedia:OnlyFans|OnlyFans]], where popularity trends towards the most neotenous women who tend to be or appear teenaged.

Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Belle_Delphine|'''Belle Delphine''']], sometimes described (wrongly) as "pedobait,"<ref>[https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/coconutkitty143-diana-deets-onlyfans-instagram-pedobaiting-1193123/ Rollingstone article].</ref><ref>[https://metro.co.uk/2021/01/13/belle-delphine-responds-as-shes-accused-of-fetishising-rape-13894142/ Metro: Belle Defends Herself].</ref> OnlyFans stars like [https://wikitia.com/wiki/Sophie_Rain Sophie Rain] who reportedly made over $40million in one year by age 20, and dancing TikTokers who become stars as teenagers.<ref>Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Loren_Gray|Loren Gray]] and [[Wikipedia:Charli_D%27Amelio|Charli D'Amelio]].</ref> Similarly, on the popular public forum website Reddit, a "Best of Reddit" user poll chose "r/Jailbait" - a space featuring provocative photos of underage teenagers - as "subreddit of the year." At one point, "jailbait" was the second most common search term on Reddit, until the forum was closed, providing further evidence that attraction to teens is widespread and commonplace.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Jailbait Wiki on r/Jailbait].</ref>

Throughout history, many celebrities and idols are, or aim to be, neotenous. Given that widespread professed attraction to young people persists despite demonization, stigma, and severe penalties for those who transgress legal and (sometimes) social standards involving "minors," it is not entirely surprising to see age-gap relationships being widely documented from [[Research:_Nonwestern_Intergenerational_Relationships|cross-cultural]], [[Research:_Intergenerational_Sexual_Behaviors_in_Animals|cross-zoological]], and [[Intergenerational_Relationships_in_History|historical evidence]], but also for social conservatives to pick up on such facts to prove that adult men's attraction to young females is natural, and thus society's stigma of it is irrational.

==Support among religious groups==
[[File:Tony Alamo.jpg|thumb|left|Tony Alamo]]
Within religions, those that saw nothing wrong with intergenerational intimacy point to specific passages in their holy books and long-established legal precedents set by their religious jurists, to support their position. One such example are Islamic apologists like '''Daniel Haqiqatjou''' (of The Muslim Sceptic fame), who unlike his more “liberal” peers, outright defends [[Prophet_Muhammad|prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha]] and the practice of [[Youth-Adult_Marriage|youth-adult marriage]] by utilizing many pro-MAP arguments alongside typical traditionalist ones,<ref>https://fstube.net/w/1QoJyy4rWhp9UCcEhsyqVs</ref>. There are likely many other Islamic scholars that hold similar positions on this matter...
[[File:Berg.jpg|thumb|Berg]]
Notable Christian examples include '''Tony Alamo''' and '''Warren Jeffs''' of the ''Alamo Christian Foundation and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' (FLDs), respectively. Both preachers were claimed to have facilitated marriages involving female minors and adult males, as well as unlawful sexual contact (rendered in much mainstream literature as [[Child_Sexual_Abuse|child sex abuse]]).<ref>http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/24/arkansas.evangelist.trial/</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20110104105347/http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2010/12/01/polygamist_sect_leader_jeffs_a.html</ref> The FLDs would condone such practice under the Mormon doctrine of “celestial marriage” until 2008, when its policy was changed to allow marriages only within the legal American age. Similar accusations made against various Christian cults like the twelve tribes and the ''Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Clare Prophet'', as well as ''The Family International'' of '''David Brandt Berg''', who reportedly stated that "God was love and love was sex", so that sex should not be limited by age or relationship, according to one former member.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20210826121314/https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932</ref> The case of the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities|Twelve Tribes]] is also of interest among scholar of moral panics, due to the controversy over the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities#The_Island_Pond_raid|Island Pond raid]] that saw the judge presiding over the case dismissing every single child abuse charge over the search warrant being unconstitutional.<ref>Smith, Colin (June 26, 1984). "ACLU: Raid on Sect was Lawless act by Vermont". The Boston Globe. New York Times Company – via Newspapers.com</ref> To this day, youth-adult marriage (counting only those below the age of 18) is a widespread practice among the Christian parts of Africa and Asia, as well as across both Americas,<ref>https://www.unicef.org/lac/en/child-marriage-and-early-unions-in-latin-america-and-the-caribbean</ref> suggesting that for many Christians the practice is deemed valid within their current cultural and religious norms, although such norms have been eroding over the years as a result of recent imperialist pressure emanating from the west.

Among adherents of Judaism, it’s of note that youth-adult marriage is still practiced among many within the Hasidic community, with some members attesting over the practice and recent arrests bringing the matter to light.<ref>https://www.timesofisrael.com/brooklyn-hasidic-rabbi-said-under-investigation-over-alleged-child-marriages/</ref><ref>https://forward.com/news/476631/rabbi-yoel-roth-hasidic-child-marriage-heichel-hakodesh-breslov/</ref>

Among non-Abrahamic religions, Hinduism stands out for the presence of scholars and philosophers that see nothing wrong with the practice of youth-adult marriage as documented in the Rigveda, the Atharvaveda, the Manusmriti, and the Dharmaśāstra.<ref>https://vedkabhed.com/index.php/2014/01/03/paedophilia-in-hinduism/</ref>

==In modern times==
[[File:Matt Walsh (cropped).jpg|thumb|left|Matt Walsh]]
Over the years, support for minor attraction among various spectrum of the right moved over into the secular realm, with the rise of the alt-right and the broader manosphere bringing forth arguments questioning the concept of an age of consent and criticizing the feminist stigmatisation of man-girl love and the common heterosexual male attraction to pubescent girls (i.e., [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]]) on the basis that such feminist outrage is often disingenuous and serves only the interest of a very prejudiced subsect of older and bitter women who want to stamp out sexual competition from younger and more desirable girls for the attention of the same men.

In the alt-lite, a more recent example is that of '''Matt Walsh''', who once stated that society would benefit from having 16-year-old girls being pregnant, criticizing the current western problematization of teen pregnancy as being misleading, stating that the actual problem lies in how such births are generally out of wedlock.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/45SpixTpJLCWdcTosKSCRt</ref> In a car interview, he also questioned the entire framework of consent within sexual relationships, using the example of actress Asia Argento being accused of statutory rape of a 17-year-old boy to critique the age of consent.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/mzrK12fBhKBzwjfVcK3Bex</ref>

Alt-right personalities sympathetic to man-girl love include political commentators like ''Daily Stormer'''s founder '''Andrew Anglin''', who uses a mix of both traditionalist and secular to argue against the age of consent and ridiculing the current wave of criminalization of female teachers having sex with their students.<ref>https://archive.ph/dkvbY</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/0Jlkp</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/sJ1D4</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/5irUh</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/NYcTs</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/tf1ju</ref> Similarly, ''cozy.tv'' CEO '''Nick Fuentes''' has argued that the [[age of consent]] is a [[Feminism|feminist]] invention used by older women to block younger and more desirable (to straight men) teen girls from sexual competition, as well as to lower the birth rate by discouraging sexual reproduction among the young, thus being detrimental to the family and society as a whole.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/kuHBXgAno3gjYcSHqdscgn</ref>

Anglin is one of the few western right-wingers that has analyzed the various British “[[grooming]]” scandals with the idea of the girls being co-conspirators rather than victims, thus breaking from the general right-wing Christian feminist consensus of seeing such girls as “victims” in all cases.<ref>https://archive.is/VzwkE</ref> It should be noted though that they’re strictly speaking about man-teen girl love, as they generally condemn homosexuality and actual pedophilia (which they exclusively see an entirely homosexual phenomenon) in all its forms.<ref>https://archive.is/f5psx</ref>
[[File:NickFuentes.jpg|thumb|Nick Fuentes]]
Former Fox News commentator '''[[Tucker Carlson]]''', despite his performative condemnation of [[MAP]]s as a woke phenomenon, had a history of defending intergenerational intimacy in certain instances, such as when he called the prospect of prosecuting a female teacher being arrested for lap-dancing in front of a student in a class "deranged," saying, "there's no victim here." In a later segment discussing the same incident, he said the lap dance would be "the greatest thing that ever happened," for most teen boys.<ref>https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2014/05/05/foxs-carlson-men-understand-that-getting-sexual/199169</ref> Carlson defended a relationship between a 16-year-old boy and his older female teacher, arguing that sex between the two wasn't rape, saying, "It's ludicrous that we are calling this a rape. Are you serious?" "You're this boy, and all of a sudden you're a rape victim? You pursue an older woman, and have a relationship with her, and you're a rape victim?"<ref>https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/tucker-carlson-statutory-rape-whiny</ref>
<blockquote>
''The rapist, in this case, has made a lifelong commitment to live and take care of the person, so it is a little different. I mean, let's be honest about it," Carlson said of Jeffs' marriages, before clarifying that he's against the practice. Later, in a 2009 recording, he said, "If a guy wants to be polygamist, that's kind of his business ... I'm just telling you that arranging a marriage between a 16-year-old and a 27-year-old is not the same as pulling a stranger off the street and raping her.''<ref>https://www.businessinsider.in/in-past-segments-tucker-carlson-defended-relationships-between-teens-and-adults-and-called-out-samantha-bee-for-saying-c-/articleshow/68365055.cms</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Cheong.jpg|thumb|Tweets deleted by Cheong]]
Similar to Carlson, Malaysian influencer, '''Ian Miles Cheong'''<ref>[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]</ref> has been repeatedly criticized for his views on Adult-Minor Sexual Relations, despite performing anti-Muslim and anti-LGBT grooming outrage in more recent years.

During his short political career, '''Nathan Larson''' had the unenviable distinction of being a mildly fascistic ("libertarian") and paraphilic MAP, and unsurprisingly, he was shunned by many. Deemed as central to the incel/pedocel movement and peripheral to the [[MAP Movement]] in the late 00s and 10s, he is a highly divisive figure among MAPs, due not only to his views on race (advocating for what he termed as "benevolent white supremacy") but because of his misogyny and apparent advocacy for rape, which was likely insincere in part, but to a degree that is rarely agreed upon by most observers. As well as supporting the decriminalization of minor-adult sex, Larson also favored the legalization of [[child pornography]], polygyny, and [[incest]] in his 2008 manifesto when he was still running an election to congress.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20180606111002/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/06/01/hes-pro-incest-pedophilia-and-rape-hes-also-running-for-congress-from-his-parents-house/</ref> He was against the US Government's foreign interventionism and regime change agenda, and against what he saw as Jewish domination of the American political and financial systems. After being banned from Wikipedia, he then went on to contribute to and found various chat rooms and wikis supporting topics as disparate as inceldom and children's rights. He wound up starving himself to death in a jail cell after being charged with kidnapping and other felonies, after he had developed a relationship with a 12-year-old as a sign of protest, who was intercepted by police after she had flown out to meet him.<ref>https://www.rawstory.com/nathan-larson/</ref>
[[File:Tucker Carlson.jpg|thumb|left|Tucker Carlson]]
Within the manosphere, the view on heterosexual attraction varies wildly, from outright condemnation to the embrace of at least heterosexual [[hebephilia]] in various parts of the movement, while other show apathy to it, viewing the issue as peripheral and not worth the trouble. The case of the “pedocel” and advocacy for the lowering of the [[age of consent]] to puberty is well documented in the [[incelosphere]].

An example of such embrace comes from '''James C. Weidmann''', founder of the now-defunct pick-up blog ''Chateau Heartiste'', who justifies male attraction to female teenagers as being a natural part of male sexuality:
<blockquote>
''It is a fact of life that young teenage girls who have developed secondary sexual characteristics are desired by men of all ages, even 90-year-olds. And these exquisite nymphets, in turn, desire older men for their power. These desires are natural and frightening to the keepers of the order. They provoke the envy of the left behind, and so are condemned.''<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20120205222738/https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/march-2008-comment-winner/</ref>
</blockquote>
Among [[Masculism|masculinist]] and [[Wikipedia:Men%27s_rights_movement|men’s rights activists]] (MRAs), the views vary wildly, with past MRAs often being critical of the [[age of consent]] and how it disproportionately affects men and fuels the current stigmatization of male heterosexuality in western society. Here, the the age of consent is viewed largely as part of [[Feminism|feminist]] legislation that harms men, although few if any have ever gone to expand their critique beyond their support for hebephilia.<ref>https://archive.ph/oQejZ</ref> Another notable figure within the movement includes the (now deceased) Angry Harry, who vehemently opposed the NSPCC for its demonization of men and for what he essentially saw an abuse industry in itself,<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111012052601/http://angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111011161725/http://angryharry.com/esNSPCCNeedsToBeStopped.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111010185357/http://www.angryharry.com/esNSPCCExposedYetAgain.htm?note</ref> taking shots at the [[Research:_Secondary_Harm|iatrogenic harm]] induced by the mainstream media.<ref>https://avoiceformen.com/featured/how-the-tabloids-encourage-child-abuse/</ref> He would also go on to celebrate Michael Jackson’s non-guilty verdict as a victory for men in general; a victory over a hysterical and misandrist society.<ref>https://angryharry.mra-archive.com/Michael%20Jackson%20-%20A%20Victory%20for%20Men.htm</ref>

Another example includes former MRA and current male sexualist '''Eivind Berge''', who calls into question the [[age of consent]] and the various laws surrounding it (such as the Romio and Juliet exemptions),<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BnHZbunBEA</ref><ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknytDXqlY</ref> on the top of defending [[pedophilia]] in general (making him exceptional in the manosphere), women-boy relationships that don’t involve force or coercion but are still criminalized due to gender equalization in statutory rape laws advocated by late feminists.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q1xp5BXv30</ref> To this day, few prominent MRAs ever criticize the entire concept of an age of consent, let alone voluntary sex involving female teens.

'''Robert Lindsay''' is one such activist, with his website Night Wind, who have gone against the current dogmatic American hysteria over adult-teen intimacy and the modernist idea that “kids can’t consent to sex”,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/11/25/age-of-consent-laws-and-adult-teen-sex-then-and-now/</ref><ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/08/11/the-kids-cant-consent-to-sex-bullshit/</ref> as well as attacking the recent panic over sexting and its mainstream portrayal as another form of abuse,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/06/20/underage-girls-doing-sexual-webcamming-are-being-abused/</ref> levying arguments against the [[age of consent]] as being illogical and ideologically-driven.<ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2023/01/sex-and-scientism.html</ref><ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2016/09/americas-pornography-culture.html</ref>

In the internet era, some openly MAP-identified groups such as [[PCMA]] have permitted membership of political radicals, including those of the right. This has been protested strongly by MAPs of the authoritarian and libertarian left traditions, as well as liberals.

==Pederasty and the right-wing==

Despite the idea being seemingly contradictory and subject to humor and derision in mainstream discourse, there is a long history of association between right-wing ideology and homoerotic aesthetics (in particular, pederasty, particularly amongst West European and Japanese fascists, who draw their justifications from their respective ancient cultures).
[[File:Roman-toga-Tiberius-Paris-Louvre.jpg|thumb|left|Tiberius]]
==Past epochs==

In the European context, antecedents include ancient Greek philosopher Plato, who in his ''Phaedrus'' and ''Symposium'' extensively describes the reality of the attraction between people of the same sex (including [[pederasty]]), and the Laws that reject it and condemn it. In the ancient Roman context, pederasty was condensed down to a practice between a more dominant male and a more passive one, to preserve semblances of masculinity. With the exception of Claudius, every Julio-Claudian Roman emperor often “lapsed”, so to speak, into “anti-natural” behavior during their lifetime, or accused of such after their deaths: Julius Caesar nicknamed the “Queen of Bithynia and the wife of all husbands”<ref>https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/551722/Osgood_Caesar_and_Nicomedes_Classical_Quarterly.pdf</ref>; Augustus was called Octavia with contempt; Tiberius who in Capri preferred barely pubescent boys and called them his “little fish”<ref>https://www.walksinsiderome.com/blog/about-rome/the-scandalous-private-life-of-tiberius-caesar/</ref>; Bisexual and incestuous [[Wikipedia:Caligula|Caligula]]; Nero who castrates his teenage slave [[Wikipedia:Sporus|Sporus]] and then crowns him as royal bride. Other emperors weren’t immune to this, with Hadrian and his profound affection for [[Wikipedia:Antinous|Antinous]], to the point of deifying the latter.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

In Asia, the orientalist Leonardo Vittorio Arena points to the promiscuous activities within Buddhist monasteries of the IX century as the origin of codified [[Pederasty_in_Japanese_culture|homosexuality among Japanese samurai]], that differs from Greek pederasty in that it’s the young novice that is supposed to take the initiative with the more mature partner. This lineage of homoeroticism that starts from the Buddhist monk-novice relationships to samurai culture, culminates with nationalist author Yukio Mishima and his seppuku (i.e., ritualized suicide) of 1970.<ref>L.V. Arena Samurai Mondadori 2033</ref><ref>Omosessuali di destra, preface by Giorgio Galli pag. XIII-XIV</ref>

==Modern era: Neoclassic, romantic, and homoerotic aesthetics==
[[File:Friedrich-alfred-krupp-1854-1902.jpg|thumb|Friedrich Alfred Krupp]]
Historian George Mosse affirms the existence of a continuity in the paradigm of beauty and masculinity that starts with German art historian and archaeologist '''Johann Joachim Winckelmann,''' his detailed and rigorous descriptions of Greco-Roman art, which influenced the Third Reich’s noted sculptor '''Arno Breker''', or Hitler’s favorite architect '''Albert Speer'''.<ref>Historian George Mosse himself demonstrated in his "Sexuality and Nationalism," the very close links between the so-called third sex and the totalitarian character: G. Mosse Sexuality and Nationalism, Laterza 1986.</ref> Winckelmann’s subsequent influence on various German figures such as [[Friedrich_Nietzsche|Nietzsche]], Spengler and [[Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe|Goethe]] have been provocatively dubbed as the “tyranny of Greece over Germany”.<ref>Paolo Zanotti, Classici dell'omosessualità, BUR, 2006</ref> For his part, Winckelmann denied any relationship between perfect beauty and the desire to have sexual relations with this beauty, even if [[Giacomo Casanova]] implied that he practiced pederasty.<ref>G. Mosse. Sexuality and Nationalism, p. 15. However, Mosse concludes by noting the irony "in the fact that a homosexual, Winckelmann, had adapted Greek art to the tastes of the middle classes and provided the model for the national male stereotype." Moreover, the episode narrated by [[Giacomo Casanova]] in “Storia della mia vita” is well known: one day he went to visit Winckelmann who lived in Rome, he finds a young and beautiful boy intent on quickly pulling up his pants in an obvious attempt to compose himself in a hurry" (Casanova, Storia della mia vita, Mondadori vol. IV, pp. 262-3.)</ref> The Greek virile body, re-discovered via Winckelmann’s descriptions, would later be used by the various European nationalist movements as the normative ideal for European masculinity.

Italy and Greece were popular destinations for German conservative elites who were fascinated by classical culture. Such noblemen include literary and cultural giants like: Winckelmann (fatally stabbed by a rent boy in Trieste); count August von Platen, the inspiration for the protagonist of '''[[Thomas Mann]]’s''' [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|''Death in Venice'']]; Steel magnate '''Friedrich Alfred Krupp''' (committing suicide in 1902 following accusations that he engaged in orgies with Italian boys)<ref>http://www.giovannidallorto.com/krupp/krupp.html#grotta</ref>; Photographer '''[[Wilhelm von Gloeden]]''', whose pederastic photography work in Taormina featuring Sicilian boys is deemed seminal in male nude photography.<ref>[https://archive.org/details/censoringsexresearch Gert Hekma and Donald H. Mader. (2013). Same Sex, Different Ages: On Pederasty in Gay History, in ''Censoring Sex Research''.]</ref>
[[File:Friedrich Nietzsche.jpg|thumb|left|Nietzsche]]
[[Communism|Friedrich Engels]], one of the founding fathers of communism and close collaborator of [[Communism|Karl Marx]], threw his disgust against the abominable vice of the pederasts in "''The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State''" (1884), denouncing Greek antiquity for its homosexual activity.<ref>Historian [[Hubert Kennedy]] has famously written on Marx's homophobia.</ref> By contrast, '''[[Friedrich Nietzsche]]''', who some Nazi politicians had attempted to appropriate as "one of the pillars of right-wing thought," spoke positively of historical [[pederasty]]. In the aphorism 259 of “Human, Too Human” (1879), he wrote:
<blockquote>
''The erotic relationships of men with young people were, to a degree not accessible to our understanding, the necessary and only assumption of any virile education ''[...]''. Young people have never been treated so carefully, so lovingly, with such an absolute regard to their good again''</blockquote>

It is likely that the late [[Wikipedia:Enoch Powell|Enoch Powell]] - a former classical scholar famous for his right-wing politics, was a closeted homosexual and pederastically inclined. He was indeed a pioneer in liberalising the laws against homosexuality, although as a married man and supporter of working-class conservatism, he hid these aspects of his personality.<ref>[https://villagemagazine.ie/suffer-little-children/ Village Magazine - Powell], [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/16/double-lives-a-history-of-sex-and-secrecy-at-westminster The Guardian - Powell]</ref>

==Germany: The pioneers of gay rights activism, gay German youth, and Nazism==
[[File:Adolf brand.jpg|thumb|Adolf brand]]
The German Empire in the late 19th century served as the birthplace of the [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|initial homosexual movement]], with figures like '''Karl Heinrich Ulrichs''' and '''Magnus Hirschfeld''' pioneering gay rights activism. A lawyer and journalist, Ulrichs publicly declared his sexual preferences in 1867, advocating for the repeal of repressive laws before dying in exile in 1895. Hirschfeld succeeded him, establishing a Scientific-Humanitarian Committee in 1897 and an Institute for Sexual Research in 1919, providing medical, psychological, and legal support for homosexuals, though the institute was later targeted and destroyed by the Nazis in 1933. Notable signatories to Hirschfeld's petition to repeal paragraph 175 of German law criminalizing “acts against nature” included Stefan Zweig, Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy, and '''[[Thomas Mann]]'''. Despite these efforts, a wave of homophobia swept Germany following the [[Wikipedia:Eulenburg_affair|Eulenburg affair of 1907-09]].<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> Concurrently, the Anarchist '''[[Wikipedia:Adolf_Brand|Adolf Brand]]''' founded ''Der Eigene'' in 1896, the first homosexual periodical in the world, advocating "outing" famous gay men and challenging social norms. Brand's anarchist radicalism contrasted with Hirschfeld's [[Communism|socialism]], and his writings have been reclaimed by romanticist anarchists (although they often omit his nationalist and elitist views).<ref>To read Adolf Brand's thought yourself (in English), see his writings translated in the [https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/wjhm20/22/1-2 ''Journal of Homosexuality'', Volume 22, Issue 1-2] (1992). E.g. Brand, A. (1992). [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_16 Friend-Love as a Cultural Factor: A Word to Germany's Male Youth (1930)]. ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 22(1–2), 145–154.</ref>

In 1900, Brand published the first anthology of gay poetry in Germany, called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieblingminne_und_Freundesliebe_in_der_Weltliteratur ''Lieblingminne und Freundesliebe in der Weltliteratur''] [Favourite love and love of friends in world literature]. It was compiled by '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisar_von_Kupffer# Elisar von Kupffer]''', who wrote [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 a politically charged preface] which argued in favor of a homosexuality that is not just "tolerated" by society, but an integral part of society.<ref>Kupffer, E. von. (1992). [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 The Ethical-Political Significance of Lieblingminne (1899)]. ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 22(1–2), 35–48.</ref> For '''von Kupffer''', homosexuality brought with it homosocial bonds that strengthened society in ways that heterosexual relationships could not. He argued against what he perceived as Magnus Hirschfeld's notion of a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender third sex], and opposed a notion of "gay" which hinged on a feminized model of male behavior.

During World War 1, von Kupffer moved to Ticino, where he established himself as a butcher and muralist in Locarno, Switzerland. There, he made photographic studies of boys for use in the creation of his paintings, and transformed their villa in Minusio, near Lake Maggiore, into an opulent collection of art, the ''Sanctuarium Artis Elisarion''. As gay historian Harry Oosterhuis put it, "The walls of this temple and museum in one consisted of a monumental painting by Kupffer of eighty-four strikingly similar naked ephebic youths in various positions."<ref>[https://cris.maastrichtuniversity.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/129225040/Oosterhuis_2000_Elisar_von_Kupffer_Gay_Histories_and_Cultures.pdf Oosterhuis, H. (2000). Elisar von Kupffer (1872-1942). In G. E. Haggerty (Ed.), Gay Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia (pp. 524-525). Garland Publishing].</ref>
[[File:Benedict Friedlaender.jpg|thumb|left|Benedict Friedlaender]]
In 1903, Brand, militant activist of Jewish ancestry [[Wikipedia:Benedict_Friedlaender|'''Benedict Friedlaender''']], and ten colleagues founded the homosexual organization [[Wikipedia:Gemeinschaft_der_Eigenen|''Gemeinschaft der Eigenen'' (GdE)]], usually translated as Community of the Special. The GdE rejected Hirschfeld's understanding of homosexuality as a "third sex," "inverted" sexuality, or effeminate disposition. Instead, they emphasized the masculinity of male-male sexuality, as did the Nobel prize winning homosexuality (and pederasty) defender [[Andre Gide]] in his 1924 ''Corydon''. Whilst divided over nationalism, many members of the GdE found alignment in their appraisal for the classical Greek practice of [[pederasty]] as an important social institution. The GdE spurned Hirschfeld's efforts at law reform and coalition-building with the Social Democrats and the feminist movement, adopting instead a diffusely anarchist outlook inspired by Max Stirner's egoist individualism, and the sweeping cultural criticism of [[Friedrich Nietzsche]].

[[Wikipedia:Gustav_Wyneken|'''Gustav Wyneken''']] was a German pedagogue and writer, who in 1921 published "Eros," an essay that exalted love between boys. Gustav Wyneken was neither to the far-right nor a left-wing extremist, but his influence on educational theory was profound. His ideas of “youth culture” and “pedagogical eros” gave inspiration to movements like the ''Wandervogel'' (officially founded in 1901), and Brand's GdE.

'''[[Wikipedia:Wandervogel|The Wandervogel movement]]''' quickly became the prominent youth movement in the nation, aiming to be an organization in constant empathy with the natural environment. It emphasized freedom from adult supervision, spontaneity, and responsibility towards others, alongside a spirit of adventure, while ideologically adopting a strong nationalist approach rooted in tradition and highlighting Germany's Teutonic (mythical pagan) roots, inspired by ancient Greece and the naturalist movement.<ref>There is some evidence that communities of intergenerational same-sex lovers were created through this movement. See, Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link). For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras, where she writes: "Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

In 1912, journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|'''Hans Blüher''']], a leading figure in this right-wing youth homosexual movement, published an essay titled "The Wandervogel Movement as an Erotic Phenomenon," subtitled "Contribution to the Recognition of Sexual Inversion." His writings have rarely been translated in English, but as of 2024, an English pamphlet created by a relatively obscure (defunct) [[MAP_Movement|French MAP political organization]], had become freely available online.<ref>[https://annas-archive.org/md5/70ceb0b6789190cc243a792acf04659f Hans Blüher, Heinrich Hoffstiepel [translator<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Michel Meigniez de Cacqueray [prelude<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Konrad Wolff, Michel Caignet, ''Family and Male Fraternity: A Theory of the Eros'' (Les Dioscures, 1994 [1917<nowiki>]</nowiki>)].</ref> Blüher clearly states that the common denominator binding these young males together is Eros, meaning erotic attraction between individuals of the same sex. He further asserts that homoerotic impulses are fundamental for forging bonds of masculine friendship, with its parallel celebration of camaraderie among males creating a "pure community of men," thereby assuming a meaningful cultural role. For Blüher, this sublimated homosexual erotic tension manifests as an excess of energy, a vital force that, unable to find physical expression, culminates in the "creative genius" of a “Mannerbund,” or society of men.
[[File:Hans Bluher.jpg|thumb|Hans Blüher]]
[[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|Blüher]] would later revisit the same themes between 1917 and 1919, with two volumes of "The Role of Eroticism in Male Society." His books became cult texts among homosexuals of his era, including some Nazi leaders, notably Ernst Rohm. Later in 1926, the lawyer '''Erich Ebermayer''' published "Youth and Eros," an explicit defense of adolescent homosexuality and pederasty; a text publicly appreciated by '''[[Thomas Mann]]''' himself.

The homoeroticism as represented by these movements, had less to do with free love than with building a relational hierarchy between men, where the selection of an elite to lead the masses would take place among males. This idea of a fraternity of men would essentially separate the boy from the mother's (and women's) negative influences, and raising a boy to be a “real man” with masculine vigor. Such values would be inculcated in the boy via scouting and other hierarchical organizations. Pederasty and fraternal relationships would thus serve to morally reinvigorate what these thinkers saw as a morally decadent society.<ref>https://pinko.online/pinko-2/reactionary-masculinity</ref>

Blüher's ideas about the "manly alliance" between males, against the woman's "devirilizing" influence, came to be viewed with hostility by the Nazi hierarchies. This was especially after the night of the long knives physically liquidated the group of people most sensitive to Blüher's theories: homosexual themselves. In a secret speech given by Heinrich Himmler to the SS in 1937, Blüher's ideas were expressly indicated as dangerous and to be opposed.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.culturagay.it/cg/viewDoc.php?id=1</ref>

==D’Annunzio’s enterprise in Fiume==
<blockquote>
''Defend the beauty! This is your only office. Defend the dream that is in you!''

'''Gabriele D’Annunzio'''
</blockquote>

Futurism, an Italian cultural and artistic movement that had its start in the early 20th century, held a more libertine attitude on sexuality for its time, where instead of a rigid heterosexuality-homosexuality binary there was, if anything, a clear distinction between active and passive sexuality. Futurists ultimately only despised effeminacy with its cheesy and too languid attitudes.
[[File:Gabriele-di-annunzio.jpg|thumb|Gabriele D'Annunzio]]
The hypocrisy in this regard had a significant exception in 1919-20, during the enterprise of Fiume (now Rijeka) by rebel units of the Royal Italian Army under the command of the poet-warrior [[Wikipedia:Gabriele_D%27Annunzio|'''Gabriele D’Annunzio''']], at the time a city contested between the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (i.e., monarchist Yugoslavia) following World War 1. His occupation, motivated by Italian irredentism, gave life to the '''Italian Regency of Carnaro''', which would last for sixteen months. To give us direct testimony is the bisexual writer '''Giovanni Comisso''', who participated in the action when he was 24 years old: Transgression of the norms, mass rebelliousness, sexual freedom, homosexuality, drug use, originality of attitudes, were the main characteristics of this counter-society.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

The occupation of the Istrian city constitutes a transgressive social experiment, especially in terms of sexuality. Futurist '''Mario Carli''', in his book ''"Trillirì"'' (1922), says in no uncertain terms that pushing many volunteers to Fiume would have been precisely the open sexuality, hence the presence of the widest variety of people, "from the colonel looking for women to the pederast looking for boys".
<blockquote>
''One day from the window of his office D'Annunzio saw the Arditi ''[Royal Italian elite troops]'' going two by two towards the hill and pointed to them saying: "Look at my soldiers, they go in pairs like Pericles' soldiers.''

'''Giovanni Commiso''', ''Le mie stagioni'' (2002)
</blockquote>
The Fiume occupation led by Gabriele d’Annunzio was not only a political revolt but also a cultural experiment characterized by a bold embrace of libertarian ideals and radical social norms. D’Annunzio, often referred to as the Comandante-Vate, infused the enterprise with a spirit of transgression and celebration of freedom, epitomized in the shared vision of the Futurist movement. The atmosphere encouraged "unlimited enjoyments, amusements, and a free flow of desires," promoting uninhibited behavior devoid of traditional moral constraints. After his iconic battle cry, “Eia! Eia! Eia! Alalà!!,” d’Annunzio would famously conclude with the exclamation, “Long live Love!”—a declaration reflecting the revolutionary ethos of the movement.
[[File:Giovanni comisso.jpg|thumb|left|Giovanni Comisso]]
The Charter of Carnaro, the constitution proclaimed during the occupation, exemplified the radical vision of Fiume’s rebels. It provided for universal male and female suffrage, freedom of opinion, religion, and sexual orientation, and went further to decriminalize homosexuality, nudism, and drug use. These provisions marked Fiume as a haven of progressive ideals that challenged the conservative norms of early 20th-century Europe.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/https://web.archive.org/web/20140102192356/http://ita.anarchopedia.org/Aspetti_libertari_dell'impresa_di_Fiume</ref> The enterprise would come to an end when the rebels, in opposition to the treaty of Rapallo between Italy and Yugoslavia, were forcefully removed from the city by the Italian royal army in the Bloody Christmas of 1920.

Despite its abrupt conclusion, the occupation of Fiume had a profound and lasting impact on Italian history and politics. It revealed the fragility of the Italian government, exposing its inability to handle radical domestic uprisings. Moreover, the nationalist organizations that supported the occupation became instrumental in the formation of the Italian Fascist Party. The cultural and political strategies employed by d’Annunzio—such as mass spectacles, charismatic leadership, and the fusion of political ideology with theatricality—profoundly influenced Benito Mussolini and shaped the core tenets of Fascism.

Fiume’s libertarian experiment remains a paradoxical legacy: while its progressive aspects symbolized freedom and defiance of conventional norms, its influence on Fascism underscores how radical movements can serve as stepping stones for authoritarian regimes. The enterprise continues to be studied as a defining moment in the interplay between utopian idealism and the rise of modern nationalism.

==France: Pederasty and WW2 collaborationism==
<blockquote>
''Sociological problem: why so many pederasts among the collaborators?''

'''Jean Guéhenno'''
</blockquote>

Journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Robert_Brasillach|'''Robert Brasillach''']], after his indictment for treason by the liberated French government, was shot in February 1945. His case is among the most unique ones, for he was condemned not for his actions so much as for his thoughts: He adhered to national socialist ideology and doctrine, defined by him as “the poetry of the XX century”. Among his contemporaries, many attest to his homosexuality.
[[File:Robert-brasillach.jpg|thumb|Robert Brasillach]]
Chief among them are Louis-Ferdinand Céline, Jean-Louis Bory, and Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, who thought of him as an effeminate pederast, with Bory using Brasillach as a prime example of the strong homoerotic nature of the collaborationist environment during the German occupation of Paris as part of his 1976 documentary. '''Jean-Paul Sartre''' thought that Drieu himself was a pederast, depicting him as a visionary dandy and lover of youthful rent-boys, but also of strong and virile German soldiers.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

Dominique Fernandez argues that the writer's homosexuality was latent - repressed, and therefore extremely harmful -, a fact that he began to participate in the annual Nuremberg ceremonies and visit the campsites of Hitler's youth from which he returned each time literally ecstatic; his homophilia as well as aesthetic tension towards homoeroticism constitutes, according to Mosse, an exemplary case about the homoerotic impulses widespread throughout Nazi culture.

Brasillach’s entire literary work revolves around the concept of strong male friendship, the camaraderie among men free from the hindrance of female presence, often explicitly referencing pederastic relationships. This is particularly evident in his first book from 1931, "''Présence de Virgile''," an authentic apology for homoeroticism: "Virgil loved to surround himself with young men. A boy of perfect beauty, who wrote poems and sang them while playing the flute, lived in his house. And often Virgil was captivated by the ambiguous charm of his own sex... Anyone who found this way of loving or this form of pleasure natural." Regarding his admired and intimate friendship with his contemporary (and future brother-in-law) Maurice Bardèche, as well as a figure in the French radical right, many gossiped, soon nicknaming them "Brasillecher and Bardache" (lèche in French means "lick," while bardache/bardassa refers to a young male prostitute).<ref>Alice Kaplan Processo e morte di un fascista. Il caso di Robert Brasillach, il Mulino 2003 pag.25</ref>
<blockquote>
''Children who will one day become twenty-year-old young men will learn with dark wonder about the existence of this exaltation, the youth camps, the glory of the past, the parades, the heroes fallen in combat, the friendship among young people of all nations... Communism, too, has its own greatness, equally exhilarating. It may even be that, in a thousand years, the two Revolutions of the twentieth century will be confused.''

'''Robert Brasillach'''<ref>cited in P. Serant Romanticismo fascista Sugar 1961, pag.253</ref>
</blockquote>

Apart from Brasillach, there are other French collaborationists who were homosexuals, such as [[Roger Peyrefitte]], author of the book “''Les Amitiés particulières''”, who faced accusations of collaboration over his diplomatic work for the Vichy regime.

==The post-war French New Right==

Like the subculture of French collaborationists in WW2-era France, pederasty and the appreciation of youth flourished alongside MAP advocacy in what would be termed as the ''Nouvelle droite'' (New Right).

<blockquote>
''The far-right press is hysterically hostile to “paedophiles”. They are in his eyes the enemy N. 1, the incarnation of the abhorred Left, and that makes me laugh because I have known, I know a very large number of “paedophiles” and they were, they are almost all Right or far-Right.''

'''[[Gabriel Matzneff]]'''<ref>[https://cnmnewz.com/2021/01/07/down-the-rabbit-hole-of-right-wing-pedophile-networks/ Down the rabbit hole of right wing pedophile networks]</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Joseph Douce variant.jpg|thumb|left|Doucé]]
'''[[Joseph Doucé]]''', a Flemish Belgian psychologist and (defrocked) Baptist minister, openly declared himself a homosexual in 1976, and founded the “''Centre of Christ the Liberator''” (Center du Christ liberateur) in Paris, a refuge for homosexuals, transgender people, sadomasochists, and pedophiles. He was a co-founder of [[ILGA]] (then called the “International Lesbian and Gay Association”), and in 1982 created a publishing firm called ''Lumière et Justice'' which would published under his direction. One such book was “''Paedophilia in question''” in which Doucé “develops scabrous theses and explains wanting to decriminalize paedophilia”.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://www.europe1.fr/societe/letrange-disparition-du-pasteur-douce-il-y-a-peu-de-chances-que-lon-connaisse-un-jour-la-verite-3838508</ref> Whilst Doucé himself is not explicitly known for being on the political Right, he managed the magazine subscriptions of the monthly ''Gaie France'' magazine created by far-right MAP advocate [https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] (see below). Doucé was connected to a British born priest named '''Nicolas Glencross''' who, since 1948, served a small parish in Nièvre, Saint-Léger-des-Vignes. While serving as a pastor to defend LGBT people, Glencross was also involved in nude photography of boys in places like India, Peru, and Sri Lanka, where he paid each child 50 francs.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.humanite.fr/node/79900&prev=search&pto=au</ref> Glencross also enjoyed drawing children naked. Prior to his arrest in 1990 and the subsequent police raid at Nièvre, Glencross kept contact with French journalist and publisher Michel Caignet.

[https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] was a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic and holocaust denier<ref>Nicolas Lebourg, « L'invention d'une doxa néo-fasciste : le rôle de l'avant-garde nationaliste-révolutionnaire. Idéologie négationniste, propagandes anti-américaine, anti-immigration, anti-juive »</ref> who, in 1986, founded the monthly ''Gaie France'' in which he proclaimed love for boys, with the aim of having a gay magazine with ideals closer to the French ''Nouvelle droite'' (“New Right”). '''Paul Raisant''' led ''Association of Friends of Gaie France'', which published a bulletin called ''Sparte, homosexualité et tradition'' in 1987. Nouvelle droite journalist '''Guillaume Faye''', writer '''Pierre Gripari''', militant atheist and gay rights activist '''Claude Courouve''', and far-right publisher '''Phillipe Randa''', son of novelist Peter Randa, were among its contributors,<ref>http://books.google.fr/books?id=5OuiSMd_HJsC&pg=PT121&dq=guillaume+faye+gaie+france&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=1rP0Up2hB6aO0AXw4oGYCw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=guillaume%20faye%20gaie%20france&f=false</ref> whilst Doucé himself managed the magazine’s subscriptions.<ref>https://www.cairn.info/revue-pardes-2005-1-page-49.htm?contenu=resume</ref> By ministerial decree dated 27 May 1992, for ''Gaie France'' the sale to minors was banned on charges of "inciting paedophilia"; it stopped publications the following year;<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000527183</ref> in 1997 Caignet was tried for the dissemination of pornographic films with minors produced in Colombia three years prior, under the name “Toro Bravo” for distribution to his readers, getting sentenced to four years in prison.

==Present-day==
[[File:Michael Kuehnen.jpg|thumb|Michael Kuehnen]]
In 1991, at the age of 36, [[Wikipedia:Michael_K%C3%BChnen|'''Michael Kühnen''']], the undisputed leader of German neo-Nazism in the 1970s and 1980s, died. He had AIDS and was homosexual in orientation.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> In 1986, he published an essay titled "''National Socialism and Homosexuality,''" referring to the homoerotic tradition within some male unions within the SA (''Sturmabteilung''). An "anti-fag rebellion" was begun by a group of his former followers; even his deputy, Thomas Brehl, was later declared a "fag" and marginalized from the neo-Nazi movement. To his former comrades, Kühnen urged his comrades to free themselves from the petty-bourgeois mentalities of Judeo-Christian origin. Instead, they should draw inspiration from the pagan teachings of nature's vitality, where homosexuality has always had its place and meaning.

Kühnen leadership remained unchallenged until 1990, when he proposed to the Iraqi ambassador to send volunteers to fight alongside Saddam Hussein's forces during the Gulf War. In 1986, while serving a prison sentence for extremism, he entrusted his friend and comrade '''Michel Caignet''' with the printing of the pamphlet. In it, Kühnen argued that homosexuality is a completely natural, hereditary predisposition, destined by nature for a small elite of men so that they can dedicate themselves to the service of community and cultural development without the burden and conditioning of reproductive sexuality. This perspective was not unprecedented in right-wing thought, as the early German gay rights activists of imperial Germany held similar views.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20141107202734/http://sororite-aryenne.com/michael-kuhnen-homosexualite-et-national-socialisme/; According to this pamphlet, unlike females, males have an indispensable cultural function, and their readiness for even extreme sacrifice is directed towards their peer group, not towards the family as women naturally do. In men, there is a surplus of sexual power that cannot be exhausted in the brief time spent with women. Therefore, this excess sexuality, when set free, should be channeled in favor of friends and in service to cultural society: the best and most useful solution is to use this libido additionally in relationships with other males, preferably with sexually mature adolescent boys. It further emphasizes that homosexuals play a pioneering role within society and the culture they support; being free from constraining ties with women and family, they can dedicate all their energies to embodying communal values. Anti-homosexual hostility developed within National Socialism due to the bourgeois mentality filled with moral prejudices of Judeo-Christian origin. Concludes Kühnen, masculine homosexuals ultimately prove to be the most suitable for leadership and indispensable for continuing the anti-bourgeois and anti-democratic struggle; unlike women, whose recognized role is predominantly private, homosexual males are assigned a prominent and socially significant public-cultural role.</ref>
[[File:Pim Fortuyn - May 4.jpg|thumb|left|Pim Fortuyn, pictured 2 days before his assassination]]
'''[[Wikipedia:Pim_Fortuyn|Pim Fortuyn]]''' (1948-2002), the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered on the 6th of May 2002, was a powerful advocate for pedophilia, standing to gain around 20% of the votes in the 2002 Dutch general election prior to his death. His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalization of drug laws, and his open homosexuality were well-known. Despite his approval of pedophilia not being a secret, Dutch journalists covering his election campaign ignored it. Ireen Van Engelen, an anti-pedophile campaigner in Holland, expressed frustration, stating, "I have been writing to journalists around the country for months as Fortuyn's popularity grew, asking them to challenge him on his views about pedophilia. But none of them dared. I also wrote to ministers, but none of them were interested. It's a disgrace." Fortuyn's own words shed light on his beliefs, as he wrote, "In the 1970s and 1980s, [[Edward_Brongersma|Brongersma]] slowly but surely gained ground...This enlightened point of view has meanwhile been abandoned... We are far removed from the understanding that Brongersma tried to foster, to our own detriment, for that matter." In his autobiographical work "''Babyboomers''", Fortuyn revealed early sexual experiences with adult males, justifying his stance on legality based on personal enjoyment of such experiences in his childhood when he was 5 years old.<ref>https://brongersma.info/Fortuyn_favoured_depraved</ref>

The American political science researcher and right-wing columnist, blogger, and online personality '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hanania Richard Hanania]''', has been critical of the expansive and incorrect use of the term "pedophile," now routinely used in the context of anyone expressing attraction to a person under 18-years old, rather than a preferential attraction to people before puberty (generally aged 13 or younger).<ref>On the idea of 'Concept Creep', or the meaning of certain concepts such as "trauma" and "pedophilia" being expanded far beyond their original purview, see [https://www.jstor.org/stable/43865764 Frank Furedi on Concept Creep (2016)], and historian Vern Bullough's "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00aug15e_the_p_smear.htm the pedophile smear]".</ref> Over time, Hanania has become critical of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_presidency_of_Donald_Trump Trump Regime] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_Again MAGA Movement], expressly disavowing his past racist and eugenicist views prior to 2023. Having a prominent Twitter (or X) presence, and having moved politically in far-right circles and even been one of several hundred contributors to the writing of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Project 2025], Hanania's shifting politics make him a highly nuanced and unusual right-wing intellectual and figure.<ref>Hanania, Richard (August 7, 2023). [https://quillette.com/2023/08/07/my-journey-out-of-extremism/ "My Journey Out of Extremism"]. ''Quillette''.</ref> In relation to [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s, and the expansion of victim culture, Hanania has written thoughtful articles such as ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"'' (2013).<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/hitler-demi-moore-and-other-pedophiles ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"''] (Substack, 2013).</ref> Alongside the independent journalist [https://www.mtracey.net '''Michael Tracey'''], Hanania has been critical of the conspiratorial obsession and [[moral panic]] associated with [[Jeffrey Epstein]].<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/the-beautiful-ironies-of-epstein ''The Beautiful Ironies of Epstein Conspiracy Theories''] (Substack, 2025).</ref>

In an interview from a January 2016 episode of the podcast Drunken Peasants, '''[[Milo Yiannopoulos]]''' explained how sexual relationships between 13-year-old boys and adult men and women can "happen perfectly consensually", because some 13-year-olds are sexually and emotionally matured enough to consent to sex with adults. He used his own experience as an example, pointing out that he was mature enough to be capable of giving consent at a young age. He also correctly stated that "pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to somebody 13 years old, who is sexually mature" but rather that "pedophilia is attraction to children who have not reached puberty." Later in the interview, after his previous comments received some pushback from the hosts, he stated: "I think the age of consent law is probably about right, that is probably roughly the right age ... but there are certainly people who are capable of giving consent at a younger age, I certainly consider myself to be one of them."<ref>https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milo-yiannopoulos-on-pedophilia-and-this-arbitrary_b_58ab52a5e4b029c1d1f88d77</ref>
[[File:Milo Yiannopoulos pride.jpg|thumb|Milo Yiannopoulos]]
Yiannopoulos thereafter claimed that his statements were merely attempts to cope with his own victimhood, yet in 2019, he appeared to agree with [[Jordan Peterson]] in affirming the content of Rind et al, a study that challenges the assumption of universal trauma.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20220815210303/https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/18gt</ref>

Following his defensive comments in 2017, Yiannopoulos was later criticized for attending Hollywood "boat parties" and "house parties" in which boys he described as "very young – very young" were engaged in pederasty but failing to report the abusers to the authorities or to identify them during an appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience. When asked about this by Ryan Lizza of New York magazine, Yiannopoulos said he "didn't check anyone's I.D.s." and that he "had no idea what the ages of any of those people at the parties were." He stated that when he said "very young" he was assuming that they were sixteen or seventeen. He reiterated that he doesn't "advocate for any illegal behavior" or excuse it. When, on 10 March, an additional video emerged in which he said on a 2015 episode of Gavin McInnes's show that minor-adult sex is "really not that big a deal. You can't let it ruin your life," Yiannopoulos was criticized for mocking [[child sexual abuse]] victims by calling them "whinging selfish brats" for [[Repressed_memory|"suddenly" remembering they were abused]] and "suddenly" deciding it was a problem 20 years after the event occurred. He also stated that a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual.<ref>https://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/how-alt-right-fellow-traveller-milo-yiannopoulos-cracked-up-the-right</ref><ref>https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/milo-yiannopoulos-described-sexual-abuse-victims-as-whinging</ref>

==Reasons for supporting the right among MAPs and AAMs==

Many advocates within the political right and centre-right argue for (limited or full) acceptance of MAPs (Minor-Attracted Persons), and/or voluntary sexual contact and relationships between minors and legal adults, citing various rationales. Some, interested more in logic, go on to view the concept of the arbitrary age of consent as illogical. Moreover, there's a prevalent sentiment against government interference in private matters, a stance particularly common among libertarians. Additionally, there's a reactionary attitude towards [[Feminism|feminism]], often viewed as hostile towards male heterosexuality and responsible for the current oppression of MAPs in the developed world as well as for advancing the modern age of consent. Some individuals also advocate for MAPs out of contrarianism or as a rejection of what they perceive as a modernist agenda that undermines traditional values, such as the preservation of the family as society’s basic unit. Unfortunately, many often limit their advocacy to the acceptance of hebephilia while trashing pedophilia, by using appeals to nature to point to their attraction being “natural” and thus “non-paraphilic”, unlike pedophilia, although such points seldom convince antis as to why they should carve out an exception for their hatred to teen-lovers. In a sense, anti-pedophilic hebephiles and ephebophiles share similarities with “ironic lolicons” in their bid for societal acceptance by striving to distance themselves from the “pedophilia” label.

Critics of the political Left's emphasis on egalitarianism and equality in all contexts argue that the leftist talking point of age-gap relationships being inherently abusive due to power imbalances derives from the same principles of radical individualism and absolute bodily autonomy used by pro-C MAPs in political discourse, with the critics pointing out that power imbalances are inherent in all personal relationships, thus questioning whether MAPs should engage in the dialectic of radical individualism and bodily autonomy instead of breaking said dialectic.

Within the community of male boylovers, certain aspects hold appeal. The neoclassical aesthetic, with its emphasis on beauty and harmony, resonates deeply. Moreover, there's a [[Erastoconservatism|fascination with the pedagogic tradition]] underpinning historical pederastic practices, where older mentors guided and educated younger individuals. Additionally, the concept of a mature man forming an intimate bond with a young boy, sharing experiences, and understanding of masculinity, serves as a cornerstone of attraction for some. These elements contribute to the multifaceted discourse surrounding rightist MAP advocacy within different forms of attraction.

===Old-school Republicans and Libertarians===

Just as boylovers can not be fit neatly into a singular [[Communism|radical leftist mould]], loved boys, or men with such experiences, have gone on to support a broad range of political philosophies. Gay historian and professor [[William Percy]] is one such example, as a lifelong Republican (prior to the current era). Despite being a supporter of the more conventionally conservative party (purportedly on the grounds of foreign policy), he expressed support for multiple sexually deviant and dissident groups throughout American society, leaving a legacy of constructive criticism toward what might be seen as reductive and essentializing tendencies in liberal sex dogma.<ref>[https://umassmedia.com/24238/uncategorized/professor-percy-on-why-i-am-a-republican/ The republicanism of William Percy]</ref> He is joined by libertarians such as Free Talk Live host Ian Bernard, who in 2010, defended his own underage relationships against a torrent of disdain from listeners.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH Ian Bernard, 2010]</ref>

==Editorial Commentary: Relevance of right-wing ideology, and discussion among MAPs==

Among political issues, right-wing ideology is a highly polarizing topic. MAPs are no exception from this rule, since their political opinions run the gamut of every part of the political spectrum, i.e. the general right-left divide is applicable to MAPs too. Some MAPs are non-partisan and instead see their MAP identity as the base for their beliefs.

Conversely, others see their [[MAP]] identity as secondary to their broader political convictions. Given the absence of a comprehensive critical theory addressing the needs and concerns of all segments of the minor attracted community, it's common for MAPs to integrate their political beliefs into their activism, hence many MAP rights activists draw upon various (and at times, contradictory) ideological frameworks, whether left or right-leaning, to advance the cause of MAP acceptance.

Among leftist and center-left MAPs, there exists a palpable aversion to anything associated with the political right, driven by historical antecedents and contemporary ideological clashes. This sentiment stems partly from a rejection of fascism and religion, and a commitment to countercultural movements (such as the sexual freedom and gay rights movements) that emerged in the post-war era, from which 1st-wave [[MAP Movement|MAP activism]] first emerges. Additionally, the influence of identitarian and secular-liberal politics among contemporary leftist movements has further entrenched this animosity towards right-wing ideologies. Left-leaning MAPs sometimes align themselves with broader leftist movements, such as sexual liberation, LGBTQ+ and secular liberalism, viewing them as allies in the fight for societal acceptance, individual autonomy and the liberation of MAPs as the continuation of a sexual, or identity-revolution.

In other cases, Left and Anarchist-leaning MAPs show open hostility towards the LGBTQ+ project, liberal values and some aspects of identity-based politics, characterizing them as reactionary.

MAPs who reject broader left-wing and liberal activism, may feel marginalized within the movements and perceive them as ineffective or even detrimental to their cause. Heterosexual girl-lovers, for instance, may view mainstream [[Feminism|feminism]] as obstructing the acceptance of their attractions and see little incentive to align with movements that display outright hostility to them and fail to address their concerns. Some MAPs, particularly those influenced by internet culture and "chan" imageboard communities, reject leftist politics altogether, viewing them as dogmatic and out of touch with reality. Right-leaning MAPs point to a variety of factors to justify their disassociation from leftist circles. They highlight increasing opposition to [[Queer|queer ideologies in Western societies]] and alleged failures of 1st-wave MAP activists in addressing man-girl love preceding their downfall in the 1990s. Secularization of anti-CSA dogma into a secular political "theology" in its own right throughout the Anglosphere and much of continental Europe is also a concern, as is the left’s realpolitik in perpetuating its own brand of [[pedophobia]]. Additionally, they perceive the mainstream left and [[Rainbow_Revisionism|LGBTQ+ lobby as hostile towards age-gap intimate relationships]], particularly heterosexual ones where the younger partner is female. They may argue that aligning with the left is counterproductive to their goals, and question if MAP rights activism is even safe restricting itself solely to left-radical politics.

Amidst this complex landscape of political ideologies, MAPs face the challenge of adapting to a rapidly changing political climate while striving for social acceptance and legal recognition. Recognizing the limitations of rigid ideological adherence, MAP rights activists must draw from the successes of diverse social movements throughout history and remain open to evolving strategies in pursuit of their goals. Only through such adaptability and resilience can the MAP rights movement hope to effect meaningful change in an imperfect world.

==See also==

[[Republicans are the real pedophiles]]

==External links==

*[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: French]][[Category:History & Events: Dutch]][[Category:History & Events: Danish]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 2000s]][[Category:History & Events: 2010s]][[Category:History & Events: 2020s]]

The Right-wing and Minor Attraction

2026-09-03T02:57:37Z

Prue: /* Germany: The pioneers of gay rights activism, gay German youth, and Nazism */

<div style="margin-left: 25px; float: right; width: 40%;">__TOC__</div>{{Template:Adj}}'''[[Wikipedia:Right-wing_politics|Right-wing politics]]''' is the range of political ideologies that view certain social orders and hierarchies as inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically supporting this position based on natural law, economics, authority, property, religion, or tradition. Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences or competition in market economies.

Right-wing politics are considered the counterpart to [[Communism|left-wing politics]], and the left–right political spectrum is one of the most widely accepted. The right includes social conservatives and fiscal conservatives as well as right-libertarians. "Right" and "right-wing" have been variously used as compliments and pejoratives describing neoliberal, conservative, and fascist economic and social ideas.

It has become fashionable among [[Jeffrey Epstein|Epstein-Truthers]] on the left to promote what has been described as "[[Wiktionary:pedocon|pedocon theory]]" - the idea that right-wing politics is associated with sexually predatory behavior towards women and "children".

==Minor attraction and the Right Wing==

Despite [[Vigilantism|pedo-bashing]] being a favorite pastime among different identarian groups, many such accusations of [[Anti|MAP tendencies and projection / hypocrisy among right-wingers]], are partially or fully based on the truth. In the case of the political right, within the contexts of both Asian and European politics (and its derivatives), there's a long-storied connection to minor-attraction / youth love, often driven by traditionalism and a romantic view of the past, whilst religion also plays a major role.

This article will discuss the phenomenon of minor attraction from the perspective of the political right, outlining many figures who have made supportive statements about [[MAP]]s and (often) voluntary age-gap sexual contact.

==Young People and Fertility==

Historically and across many cultures, it was a normative or accepted practice in society for the bride or female partner to be younger than the male, as the older male would have more resources to provide for the younger partner. [[File:2094689396.jpg|thumb|left|Belle Delphine]] Based on [[Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality|evolutionary theory]], male heterosexual attraction towards pubescent and post-pubescent sexually developed / developing females (a normative aspect of human male sexuality),<ref name="hebe" /> is relatively advantageous for the survival and proliferation of the human species. The rationale is that during the period of menarche, female fecundity peaks, conferring them a reproductive advantage and greater success. In terms of the human male preference for [[Wikipedia:Neoteny|neoteny]], the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood, where men feel safe to do so they will often assert that young women represent the peak of their beauty across the life course.<ref name="hebe">See our pages on [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]], and [[Research: Prevalence]].</ref> This phenomenon is arguably evidenced in the modern, digital age, through the proliferation of online content posted to social media like [[Wikipedia:TikTok|TikTok]] and [[Wikipedia:Instagram|Instagram]], alongside subscription service porn sites like [[Wikipedia:OnlyFans|OnlyFans]], where popularity trends towards the most neotenous women who tend to be or appear teenaged.

Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Belle_Delphine|'''Belle Delphine''']], sometimes described (wrongly) as "pedobait,"<ref>[https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/coconutkitty143-diana-deets-onlyfans-instagram-pedobaiting-1193123/ Rollingstone article].</ref><ref>[https://metro.co.uk/2021/01/13/belle-delphine-responds-as-shes-accused-of-fetishising-rape-13894142/ Metro: Belle Defends Herself].</ref> OnlyFans stars like [https://wikitia.com/wiki/Sophie_Rain Sophie Rain] who reportedly made over $40million in one year by age 20, and dancing TikTokers who become stars as teenagers.<ref>Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Loren_Gray|Loren Gray]] and [[Wikipedia:Charli_D%27Amelio|Charli D'Amelio]].</ref> Similarly, on the popular public forum website Reddit, a "Best of Reddit" user poll chose "r/Jailbait" - a space featuring provocative photos of underage teenagers - as "subreddit of the year." At one point, "jailbait" was the second most common search term on Reddit, until the forum was closed, providing further evidence that attraction to teens is widespread and commonplace.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Jailbait Wiki on r/Jailbait].</ref>

Throughout history, many celebrities and idols are, or aim to be, neotenous. Given that widespread professed attraction to young people persists despite demonization, stigma, and severe penalties for those who transgress legal and (sometimes) social standards involving "minors," it is not entirely surprising to see age-gap relationships being widely documented from [[Research:_Nonwestern_Intergenerational_Relationships|cross-cultural]], [[Research:_Intergenerational_Sexual_Behaviors_in_Animals|cross-zoological]], and [[Intergenerational_Relationships_in_History|historical evidence]], but also for social conservatives to pick up on such facts to prove that adult men's attraction to young females is natural, and thus society's stigma of it is irrational.

==Support among religious groups==
[[File:Tony Alamo.jpg|thumb|left|Tony Alamo]]
Within religions, those that saw nothing wrong with intergenerational intimacy point to specific passages in their holy books and long-established legal precedents set by their religious jurists, to support their position. One such example are Islamic apologists like '''Daniel Haqiqatjou''' (of The Muslim Sceptic fame), who unlike his more “liberal” peers, outright defends [[Prophet_Muhammad|prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha]] and the practice of [[Youth-Adult_Marriage|youth-adult marriage]] by utilizing many pro-MAP arguments alongside typical traditionalist ones,<ref>https://fstube.net/w/1QoJyy4rWhp9UCcEhsyqVs</ref>. There are likely many other Islamic scholars that hold similar positions on this matter...
[[File:Berg.jpg|thumb|Berg]]
Notable Christian examples include '''Tony Alamo''' and '''Warren Jeffs''' of the ''Alamo Christian Foundation and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' (FLDs), respectively. Both preachers were claimed to have facilitated marriages involving female minors and adult males, as well as unlawful sexual contact (rendered in much mainstream literature as [[Child_Sexual_Abuse|child sex abuse]]).<ref>http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/24/arkansas.evangelist.trial/</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20110104105347/http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2010/12/01/polygamist_sect_leader_jeffs_a.html</ref> The FLDs would condone such practice under the Mormon doctrine of “celestial marriage” until 2008, when its policy was changed to allow marriages only within the legal American age. Similar accusations made against various Christian cults like the twelve tribes and the ''Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Clare Prophet'', as well as ''The Family International'' of '''David Brandt Berg''', who reportedly stated that "God was love and love was sex", so that sex should not be limited by age or relationship, according to one former member.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20210826121314/https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932</ref> The case of the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities|Twelve Tribes]] is also of interest among scholar of moral panics, due to the controversy over the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities#The_Island_Pond_raid|Island Pond raid]] that saw the judge presiding over the case dismissing every single child abuse charge over the search warrant being unconstitutional.<ref>Smith, Colin (June 26, 1984). "ACLU: Raid on Sect was Lawless act by Vermont". The Boston Globe. New York Times Company – via Newspapers.com</ref> To this day, youth-adult marriage (counting only those below the age of 18) is a widespread practice among the Christian parts of Africa and Asia, as well as across both Americas,<ref>https://www.unicef.org/lac/en/child-marriage-and-early-unions-in-latin-america-and-the-caribbean</ref> suggesting that for many Christians the practice is deemed valid within their current cultural and religious norms, although such norms have been eroding over the years as a result of recent imperialist pressure emanating from the west.

Among adherents of Judaism, it’s of note that youth-adult marriage is still practiced among many within the Hasidic community, with some members attesting over the practice and recent arrests bringing the matter to light.<ref>https://www.timesofisrael.com/brooklyn-hasidic-rabbi-said-under-investigation-over-alleged-child-marriages/</ref><ref>https://forward.com/news/476631/rabbi-yoel-roth-hasidic-child-marriage-heichel-hakodesh-breslov/</ref>

Among non-Abrahamic religions, Hinduism stands out for the presence of scholars and philosophers that see nothing wrong with the practice of youth-adult marriage as documented in the Rigveda, the Atharvaveda, the Manusmriti, and the Dharmaśāstra.<ref>https://vedkabhed.com/index.php/2014/01/03/paedophilia-in-hinduism/</ref>

==In modern times==
[[File:Matt Walsh (cropped).jpg|thumb|left|Matt Walsh]]
Over the years, support for minor attraction among various spectrum of the right moved over into the secular realm, with the rise of the alt-right and the broader manosphere bringing forth arguments questioning the concept of an age of consent and criticizing the feminist stigmatisation of man-girl love and the common heterosexual male attraction to pubescent girls (i.e., [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]]) on the basis that such feminist outrage is often disingenuous and serves only the interest of a very prejudiced subsect of older and bitter women who want to stamp out sexual competition from younger and more desirable girls for the attention of the same men.

In the alt-lite, a more recent example is that of '''Matt Walsh''', who once stated that society would benefit from having 16-year-old girls being pregnant, criticizing the current western problematization of teen pregnancy as being misleading, stating that the actual problem lies in how such births are generally out of wedlock.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/45SpixTpJLCWdcTosKSCRt</ref> In a car interview, he also questioned the entire framework of consent within sexual relationships, using the example of actress Asia Argento being accused of statutory rape of a 17-year-old boy to critique the age of consent.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/mzrK12fBhKBzwjfVcK3Bex</ref>

Alt-right personalities sympathetic to man-girl love include political commentators like ''Daily Stormer'''s founder '''Andrew Anglin''', who uses a mix of both traditionalist and secular to argue against the age of consent and ridiculing the current wave of criminalization of female teachers having sex with their students.<ref>https://archive.ph/dkvbY</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/0Jlkp</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/sJ1D4</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/5irUh</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/NYcTs</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/tf1ju</ref> Similarly, ''cozy.tv'' CEO '''Nick Fuentes''' has argued that the [[age of consent]] is a [[Feminism|feminist]] invention used by older women to block younger and more desirable (to straight men) teen girls from sexual competition, as well as to lower the birth rate by discouraging sexual reproduction among the young, thus being detrimental to the family and society as a whole.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/kuHBXgAno3gjYcSHqdscgn</ref>

Anglin is one of the few western right-wingers that has analyzed the various British “[[grooming]]” scandals with the idea of the girls being co-conspirators rather than victims, thus breaking from the general right-wing Christian feminist consensus of seeing such girls as “victims” in all cases.<ref>https://archive.is/VzwkE</ref> It should be noted though that they’re strictly speaking about man-teen girl love, as they generally condemn homosexuality and actual pedophilia (which they exclusively see an entirely homosexual phenomenon) in all its forms.<ref>https://archive.is/f5psx</ref>
[[File:NickFuentes.jpg|thumb|Nick Fuentes]]
Former Fox News commentator '''[[Tucker Carlson]]''', despite his performative condemnation of [[MAP]]s as a woke phenomenon, had a history of defending intergenerational intimacy in certain instances, such as when he called the prospect of prosecuting a female teacher being arrested for lap-dancing in front of a student in a class "deranged," saying, "there's no victim here." In a later segment discussing the same incident, he said the lap dance would be "the greatest thing that ever happened," for most teen boys.<ref>https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2014/05/05/foxs-carlson-men-understand-that-getting-sexual/199169</ref> Carlson defended a relationship between a 16-year-old boy and his older female teacher, arguing that sex between the two wasn't rape, saying, "It's ludicrous that we are calling this a rape. Are you serious?" "You're this boy, and all of a sudden you're a rape victim? You pursue an older woman, and have a relationship with her, and you're a rape victim?"<ref>https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/tucker-carlson-statutory-rape-whiny</ref>
<blockquote>
''The rapist, in this case, has made a lifelong commitment to live and take care of the person, so it is a little different. I mean, let's be honest about it," Carlson said of Jeffs' marriages, before clarifying that he's against the practice. Later, in a 2009 recording, he said, "If a guy wants to be polygamist, that's kind of his business ... I'm just telling you that arranging a marriage between a 16-year-old and a 27-year-old is not the same as pulling a stranger off the street and raping her.''<ref>https://www.businessinsider.in/in-past-segments-tucker-carlson-defended-relationships-between-teens-and-adults-and-called-out-samantha-bee-for-saying-c-/articleshow/68365055.cms</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Cheong.jpg|thumb|Tweets deleted by Cheong]]
Similar to Carlson, Malaysian influencer, '''Ian Miles Cheong'''<ref>[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]</ref> has been repeatedly criticized for his views on Adult-Minor Sexual Relations, despite performing anti-Muslim and anti-LGBT grooming outrage in more recent years.

During his short political career, '''Nathan Larson''' had the unenviable distinction of being a mildly fascistic ("libertarian") and paraphilic MAP, and unsurprisingly, he was shunned by many. Deemed as central to the incel/pedocel movement and peripheral to the [[MAP Movement]] in the late 00s and 10s, he is a highly divisive figure among MAPs, due not only to his views on race (advocating for what he termed as "benevolent white supremacy") but because of his misogyny and apparent advocacy for rape, which was likely insincere in part, but to a degree that is rarely agreed upon by most observers. As well as supporting the decriminalization of minor-adult sex, Larson also favored the legalization of [[child pornography]], polygyny, and [[incest]] in his 2008 manifesto when he was still running an election to congress.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20180606111002/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/06/01/hes-pro-incest-pedophilia-and-rape-hes-also-running-for-congress-from-his-parents-house/</ref> He was against the US Government's foreign interventionism and regime change agenda, and against what he saw as Jewish domination of the American political and financial systems. After being banned from Wikipedia, he then went on to contribute to and found various chat rooms and wikis supporting topics as disparate as inceldom and children's rights. He wound up starving himself to death in a jail cell after being charged with kidnapping and other felonies, after he had developed a relationship with a 12-year-old as a sign of protest, who was intercepted by police after she had flown out to meet him.<ref>https://www.rawstory.com/nathan-larson/</ref>
[[File:Tucker Carlson.jpg|thumb|left|Tucker Carlson]]
Within the manosphere, the view on heterosexual attraction varies wildly, from outright condemnation to the embrace of at least heterosexual [[hebephilia]] in various parts of the movement, while other show apathy to it, viewing the issue as peripheral and not worth the trouble. The case of the “pedocel” and advocacy for the lowering of the [[age of consent]] to puberty is well documented in the [[incelosphere]].

An example of such embrace comes from '''James C. Weidmann''', founder of the now-defunct pick-up blog ''Chateau Heartiste'', who justifies male attraction to female teenagers as being a natural part of male sexuality:
<blockquote>
''It is a fact of life that young teenage girls who have developed secondary sexual characteristics are desired by men of all ages, even 90-year-olds. And these exquisite nymphets, in turn, desire older men for their power. These desires are natural and frightening to the keepers of the order. They provoke the envy of the left behind, and so are condemned.''<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20120205222738/https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/march-2008-comment-winner/</ref>
</blockquote>
Among [[Masculism|masculinist]] and [[Wikipedia:Men%27s_rights_movement|men’s rights activists]] (MRAs), the views vary wildly, with past MRAs often being critical of the [[age of consent]] and how it disproportionately affects men and fuels the current stigmatization of male heterosexuality in western society. Here, the the age of consent is viewed largely as part of [[Feminism|feminist]] legislation that harms men, although few if any have ever gone to expand their critique beyond their support for hebephilia.<ref>https://archive.ph/oQejZ</ref> Another notable figure within the movement includes the (now deceased) Angry Harry, who vehemently opposed the NSPCC for its demonization of men and for what he essentially saw an abuse industry in itself,<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111012052601/http://angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111011161725/http://angryharry.com/esNSPCCNeedsToBeStopped.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111010185357/http://www.angryharry.com/esNSPCCExposedYetAgain.htm?note</ref> taking shots at the [[Research:_Secondary_Harm|iatrogenic harm]] induced by the mainstream media.<ref>https://avoiceformen.com/featured/how-the-tabloids-encourage-child-abuse/</ref> He would also go on to celebrate Michael Jackson’s non-guilty verdict as a victory for men in general; a victory over a hysterical and misandrist society.<ref>https://angryharry.mra-archive.com/Michael%20Jackson%20-%20A%20Victory%20for%20Men.htm</ref>

Another example includes former MRA and current male sexualist '''Eivind Berge''', who calls into question the [[age of consent]] and the various laws surrounding it (such as the Romio and Juliet exemptions),<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BnHZbunBEA</ref><ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknytDXqlY</ref> on the top of defending [[pedophilia]] in general (making him exceptional in the manosphere), women-boy relationships that don’t involve force or coercion but are still criminalized due to gender equalization in statutory rape laws advocated by late feminists.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q1xp5BXv30</ref> To this day, few prominent MRAs ever criticize the entire concept of an age of consent, let alone voluntary sex involving female teens.

'''Robert Lindsay''' is one such activist, with his website Night Wind, who have gone against the current dogmatic American hysteria over adult-teen intimacy and the modernist idea that “kids can’t consent to sex”,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/11/25/age-of-consent-laws-and-adult-teen-sex-then-and-now/</ref><ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/08/11/the-kids-cant-consent-to-sex-bullshit/</ref> as well as attacking the recent panic over sexting and its mainstream portrayal as another form of abuse,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/06/20/underage-girls-doing-sexual-webcamming-are-being-abused/</ref> levying arguments against the [[age of consent]] as being illogical and ideologically-driven.<ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2023/01/sex-and-scientism.html</ref><ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2016/09/americas-pornography-culture.html</ref>

In the internet era, some openly MAP-identified groups such as [[PCMA]] have permitted membership of political radicals, including those of the right. This has been protested strongly by MAPs of the authoritarian and libertarian left traditions, as well as liberals.

==Pederasty and the right-wing==

Despite the idea being seemingly contradictory and subject to humor and derision in mainstream discourse, there is a long history of association between right-wing ideology and homoerotic aesthetics (in particular, pederasty, particularly amongst West European and Japanese fascists, who draw their justifications from their respective ancient cultures).
[[File:Roman-toga-Tiberius-Paris-Louvre.jpg|thumb|left|Tiberius]]
==Past epochs==

In the European context, antecedents include ancient Greek philosopher Plato, who in his ''Phaedrus'' and ''Symposium'' extensively describes the reality of the attraction between people of the same sex (including [[pederasty]]), and the Laws that reject it and condemn it. In the ancient Roman context, pederasty was condensed down to a practice between a more dominant male and a more passive one, to preserve semblances of masculinity. With the exception of Claudius, every Julio-Claudian Roman emperor often “lapsed”, so to speak, into “anti-natural” behavior during their lifetime, or accused of such after their deaths: Julius Caesar nicknamed the “Queen of Bithynia and the wife of all husbands”<ref>https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/551722/Osgood_Caesar_and_Nicomedes_Classical_Quarterly.pdf</ref>; Augustus was called Octavia with contempt; Tiberius who in Capri preferred barely pubescent boys and called them his “little fish”<ref>https://www.walksinsiderome.com/blog/about-rome/the-scandalous-private-life-of-tiberius-caesar/</ref>; Bisexual and incestuous [[Wikipedia:Caligula|Caligula]]; Nero who castrates his teenage slave [[Wikipedia:Sporus|Sporus]] and then crowns him as royal bride. Other emperors weren’t immune to this, with Hadrian and his profound affection for [[Wikipedia:Antinous|Antinous]], to the point of deifying the latter.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

In Asia, the orientalist Leonardo Vittorio Arena points to the promiscuous activities within Buddhist monasteries of the IX century as the origin of codified [[Pederasty_in_Japanese_culture|homosexuality among Japanese samurai]], that differs from Greek pederasty in that it’s the young novice that is supposed to take the initiative with the more mature partner. This lineage of homoeroticism that starts from the Buddhist monk-novice relationships to samurai culture, culminates with nationalist author Yukio Mishima and his seppuku (i.e., ritualized suicide) of 1970.<ref>L.V. Arena Samurai Mondadori 2033</ref><ref>Omosessuali di destra, preface by Giorgio Galli pag. XIII-XIV</ref>

==Modern era: Neoclassic, romantic, and homoerotic aesthetics==
[[File:Friedrich-alfred-krupp-1854-1902.jpg|thumb|Friedrich Alfred Krupp]]
Historian George Mosse affirms the existence of a continuity in the paradigm of beauty and masculinity that starts with German art historian and archaeologist '''Johann Joachim Winckelmann,''' his detailed and rigorous descriptions of Greco-Roman art, which influenced the Third Reich’s noted sculptor '''Arno Breker''', or Hitler’s favorite architect '''Albert Speer'''.<ref>Historian George Mosse himself demonstrated in his "Sexuality and Nationalism," the very close links between the so-called third sex and the totalitarian character: G. Mosse Sexuality and Nationalism, Laterza 1986.</ref> Winckelmann’s subsequent influence on various German figures such as [[Friedrich_Nietzsche|Nietzsche]], Spengler and [[Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe|Goethe]] have been provocatively dubbed as the “tyranny of Greece over Germany”.<ref>Paolo Zanotti, Classici dell'omosessualità, BUR, 2006</ref> For his part, Winckelmann denied any relationship between perfect beauty and the desire to have sexual relations with this beauty, even if [[Giacomo Casanova]] implied that he practiced pederasty.<ref>G. Mosse. Sexuality and Nationalism, p. 15. However, Mosse concludes by noting the irony "in the fact that a homosexual, Winckelmann, had adapted Greek art to the tastes of the middle classes and provided the model for the national male stereotype." Moreover, the episode narrated by [[Giacomo Casanova]] in “Storia della mia vita” is well known: one day he went to visit Winckelmann who lived in Rome, he finds a young and beautiful boy intent on quickly pulling up his pants in an obvious attempt to compose himself in a hurry" (Casanova, Storia della mia vita, Mondadori vol. IV, pp. 262-3.)</ref> The Greek virile body, re-discovered via Winckelmann’s descriptions, would later be used by the various European nationalist movements as the normative ideal for European masculinity.

Italy and Greece were popular destinations for German conservative elites who were fascinated by classical culture. Such noblemen include literary and cultural giants like: Winckelmann (fatally stabbed by a rent boy in Trieste); count August von Platen, the inspiration for the protagonist of '''[[Thomas Mann]]’s''' [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|''Death in Venice'']]; Steel magnate '''Friedrich Alfred Krupp''' (committing suicide in 1902 following accusations that he engaged in orgies with Italian boys)<ref>http://www.giovannidallorto.com/krupp/krupp.html#grotta</ref>; Photographer '''[[Wilhelm von Gloeden]]''', whose pederastic photography work in Taormina featuring Sicilian boys is deemed seminal in male nude photography.<ref>[https://archive.org/details/censoringsexresearch Gert Hekma and Donald H. Mader. (2013). Same Sex, Different Ages: On Pederasty in Gay History, in ''Censoring Sex Research''.]</ref>
[[File:Friedrich Nietzsche.jpg|thumb|left|Nietzsche]]
[[Communism|Friedrich Engels]], one of the founding fathers of communism and close collaborator of [[Communism|Karl Marx]], threw his disgust against the abominable vice of the pederasts in "''The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State''" (1884), denouncing Greek antiquity for its homosexual activity.<ref>Historian [[Hubert Kennedy]] has famously written on Marx's homophobia.</ref> By contrast, '''[[Friedrich Nietzsche]]''', who some Nazi politicians had attempted to appropriate as "one of the pillars of right-wing thought," spoke positively of historical [[pederasty]]. In the aphorism 259 of “Human, Too Human” (1879), he wrote:
<blockquote>
''The erotic relationships of men with young people were, to a degree not accessible to our understanding, the necessary and only assumption of any virile education ''[...]''. Young people have never been treated so carefully, so lovingly, with such an absolute regard to their good again''</blockquote>

It is likely that the late [[Wikipedia:Enoch Powell|Enoch Powell]] - a former classical scholar famous for his right-wing politics, was a closeted homosexual and pederastically inclined. He was indeed a pioneer in liberalising the laws against homosexuality, although as a married man and supporter of working-class conservatism, he hid these aspects of his personality.<ref>[https://villagemagazine.ie/suffer-little-children/ Village Magazine - Powell], [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/16/double-lives-a-history-of-sex-and-secrecy-at-westminster The Guardian - Powell]</ref>

==Germany: The pioneers of gay rights activism, gay German youth, and Nazism==
[[File:Adolf brand.jpg|thumb|Adolf brand]]
The German Empire in the late 19th century served as the birthplace of the [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|initial homosexual movement]], with figures like '''Karl Heinrich Ulrichs''' and '''Magnus Hirschfeld''' pioneering gay rights activism. A lawyer and journalist, Ulrichs publicly declared his sexual preferences in 1867, advocating for the repeal of repressive laws before dying in exile in 1895. Hirschfeld succeeded him, establishing a Scientific-Humanitarian Committee in 1897 and an Institute for Sexual Research in 1919, providing medical, psychological, and legal support for homosexuals, though the institute was later targeted and destroyed by the Nazis in 1933. Notable signatories to Hirschfeld's petition to repeal paragraph 175 of German law criminalizing “acts against nature” included Stefan Zweig, Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy, and '''[[Thomas Mann]]'''. Despite these efforts, a wave of homophobia swept Germany following the [[Wikipedia:Eulenburg_affair|Eulenburg affair of 1907-09]].<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> Concurrently, the Anarchist '''[[Wikipedia:Adolf_Brand|Adolf Brand]]''' founded ''Der Eigene'' in 1896, the first homosexual periodical in the world, advocating "outing" famous gay men and challenging social norms. Brand's anarchist radicalism contrasted with Hirschfeld's [[Communism|socialism]], and his writings have been reclaimed by romanticist anarchists (although they often omit his nationalist and elitist views).

In 1900, Brand published the first anthology of gay poetry in Germany, called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieblingminne_und_Freundesliebe_in_der_Weltliteratur ''Lieblingminne und Freundesliebe in der Weltliteratur''] [Favourite love and love of friends in world literature]. It was compiled by '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisar_von_Kupffer# Elisar von Kupffer]''', who wrote [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 a politically charged preface] which argued in favor of a homosexuality that is not just "tolerated" by society, but an integral part of society.<ref>Kupffer, E. von. (1992). [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 The Ethical-Political Significance of Lieblingminne (1899)]. ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 22(1–2), 35–48.</ref> For '''von Kupffer''', homosexuality brought with it homosocial bonds that strengthened society in ways that heterosexual relationships could not. He argued against what he perceived as Magnus Hirschfeld's notion of a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender third sex], and opposed a notion of "gay" which hinged on a feminized model of male behavior.

During World War 1, von Kupffer moved to Ticino, where he established himself as a butcher and muralist in Locarno, Switzerland. There, he made photographic studies of boys for use in the creation of his paintings, and transformed their villa in Minusio, near Lake Maggiore, into an opulent collection of art, the ''Sanctuarium Artis Elisarion''. As gay historian Harry Oosterhuis put it, "The walls of this temple and museum in one consisted of a monumental painting by Kupffer of eighty-four strikingly similar naked ephebic youths in various positions."<ref>[https://cris.maastrichtuniversity.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/129225040/Oosterhuis_2000_Elisar_von_Kupffer_Gay_Histories_and_Cultures.pdf Oosterhuis, H. (2000). Elisar von Kupffer (1872-1942). In G. E. Haggerty (Ed.), Gay Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia (pp. 524-525). Garland Publishing].</ref>
[[File:Benedict Friedlaender.jpg|thumb|left|Benedict Friedlaender]]
In 1903, Brand, militant activist of Jewish ancestry [[Wikipedia:Benedict_Friedlaender|'''Benedict Friedlaender''']], and ten colleagues founded the homosexual organization [[Wikipedia:Gemeinschaft_der_Eigenen|''Gemeinschaft der Eigenen'' (GdE)]], usually translated as Community of the Special. The GdE rejected Hirschfeld's understanding of homosexuality as a "third sex," "inverted" sexuality, or effeminate disposition. Instead, they emphasized the masculinity of male-male sexuality, as did the Nobel prize winning homosexuality (and pederasty) defender [[Andre Gide]] in his 1924 ''Corydon''. Whilst divided over nationalism, many members of the GdE found alignment in their appraisal for the classical Greek practice of [[pederasty]] as an important social institution. The GdE spurned Hirschfeld's efforts at law reform and coalition-building with the Social Democrats and the feminist movement, adopting instead a diffusely anarchist outlook inspired by Max Stirner's egoist individualism, and the sweeping cultural criticism of [[Friedrich Nietzsche]].

[[Wikipedia:Gustav_Wyneken|'''Gustav Wyneken''']] was a German pedagogue and writer, who in 1921 published "Eros," an essay that exalted love between boys. Gustav Wyneken was neither to the far-right nor a left-wing extremist, but his influence on educational theory was profound. His ideas of “youth culture” and “pedagogical eros” gave inspiration to movements like the ''Wandervogel'' (officially founded in 1901), and Brand's GdE.

'''[[Wikipedia:Wandervogel|The Wandervogel movement]]''' quickly became the prominent youth movement in the nation, aiming to be an organization in constant empathy with the natural environment. It emphasized freedom from adult supervision, spontaneity, and responsibility towards others, alongside a spirit of adventure, while ideologically adopting a strong nationalist approach rooted in tradition and highlighting Germany's Teutonic (mythical pagan) roots, inspired by ancient Greece and the naturalist movement.<ref>There is some evidence that communities of intergenerational same-sex lovers were created through this movement. See, Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link). For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras, where she writes: "Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

In 1912, journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|'''Hans Blüher''']], a leading figure in this right-wing youth homosexual movement, published an essay titled "The Wandervogel Movement as an Erotic Phenomenon," subtitled "Contribution to the Recognition of Sexual Inversion." His writings have rarely been translated in English, but as of 2024, an English pamphlet created by a relatively obscure (defunct) [[MAP_Movement|French MAP political organization]], had become freely available online.<ref>[https://annas-archive.org/md5/70ceb0b6789190cc243a792acf04659f Hans Blüher, Heinrich Hoffstiepel [translator<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Michel Meigniez de Cacqueray [prelude<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Konrad Wolff, Michel Caignet, ''Family and Male Fraternity: A Theory of the Eros'' (Les Dioscures, 1994 [1917<nowiki>]</nowiki>)].</ref> Blüher clearly states that the common denominator binding these young males together is Eros, meaning erotic attraction between individuals of the same sex. He further asserts that homoerotic impulses are fundamental for forging bonds of masculine friendship, with its parallel celebration of camaraderie among males creating a "pure community of men," thereby assuming a meaningful cultural role. For Blüher, this sublimated homosexual erotic tension manifests as an excess of energy, a vital force that, unable to find physical expression, culminates in the "creative genius" of a “Mannerbund,” or society of men.
[[File:Hans Bluher.jpg|thumb|Hans Blüher]]
[[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|Blüher]] would later revisit the same themes between 1917 and 1919, with two volumes of "The Role of Eroticism in Male Society." His books became cult texts among homosexuals of his era, including some Nazi leaders, notably Ernst Rohm. Later in 1926, the lawyer '''Erich Ebermayer''' published "Youth and Eros," an explicit defense of adolescent homosexuality and pederasty; a text publicly appreciated by '''[[Thomas Mann]]''' himself.

The homoeroticism as represented by these movements, had less to do with free love than with building a relational hierarchy between men, where the selection of an elite to lead the masses would take place among males. This idea of a fraternity of men would essentially separate the boy from the mother's (and women's) negative influences, and raising a boy to be a “real man” with masculine vigor. Such values would be inculcated in the boy via scouting and other hierarchical organizations. Pederasty and fraternal relationships would thus serve to morally reinvigorate what these thinkers saw as a morally decadent society.<ref>https://pinko.online/pinko-2/reactionary-masculinity</ref>

Blüher's ideas about the "manly alliance" between males, against the woman's "devirilizing" influence, came to be viewed with hostility by the Nazi hierarchies. This was especially after the night of the long knives physically liquidated the group of people most sensitive to Blüher's theories: homosexual themselves. In a secret speech given by Heinrich Himmler to the SS in 1937, Blüher's ideas were expressly indicated as dangerous and to be opposed.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.culturagay.it/cg/viewDoc.php?id=1</ref>

==D’Annunzio’s enterprise in Fiume==
<blockquote>
''Defend the beauty! This is your only office. Defend the dream that is in you!''

'''Gabriele D’Annunzio'''
</blockquote>

Futurism, an Italian cultural and artistic movement that had its start in the early 20th century, held a more libertine attitude on sexuality for its time, where instead of a rigid heterosexuality-homosexuality binary there was, if anything, a clear distinction between active and passive sexuality. Futurists ultimately only despised effeminacy with its cheesy and too languid attitudes.
[[File:Gabriele-di-annunzio.jpg|thumb|Gabriele D'Annunzio]]
The hypocrisy in this regard had a significant exception in 1919-20, during the enterprise of Fiume (now Rijeka) by rebel units of the Royal Italian Army under the command of the poet-warrior [[Wikipedia:Gabriele_D%27Annunzio|'''Gabriele D’Annunzio''']], at the time a city contested between the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (i.e., monarchist Yugoslavia) following World War 1. His occupation, motivated by Italian irredentism, gave life to the '''Italian Regency of Carnaro''', which would last for sixteen months. To give us direct testimony is the bisexual writer '''Giovanni Comisso''', who participated in the action when he was 24 years old: Transgression of the norms, mass rebelliousness, sexual freedom, homosexuality, drug use, originality of attitudes, were the main characteristics of this counter-society.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

The occupation of the Istrian city constitutes a transgressive social experiment, especially in terms of sexuality. Futurist '''Mario Carli''', in his book ''"Trillirì"'' (1922), says in no uncertain terms that pushing many volunteers to Fiume would have been precisely the open sexuality, hence the presence of the widest variety of people, "from the colonel looking for women to the pederast looking for boys".
<blockquote>
''One day from the window of his office D'Annunzio saw the Arditi ''[Royal Italian elite troops]'' going two by two towards the hill and pointed to them saying: "Look at my soldiers, they go in pairs like Pericles' soldiers.''

'''Giovanni Commiso''', ''Le mie stagioni'' (2002)
</blockquote>
The Fiume occupation led by Gabriele d’Annunzio was not only a political revolt but also a cultural experiment characterized by a bold embrace of libertarian ideals and radical social norms. D’Annunzio, often referred to as the Comandante-Vate, infused the enterprise with a spirit of transgression and celebration of freedom, epitomized in the shared vision of the Futurist movement. The atmosphere encouraged "unlimited enjoyments, amusements, and a free flow of desires," promoting uninhibited behavior devoid of traditional moral constraints. After his iconic battle cry, “Eia! Eia! Eia! Alalà!!,” d’Annunzio would famously conclude with the exclamation, “Long live Love!”—a declaration reflecting the revolutionary ethos of the movement.
[[File:Giovanni comisso.jpg|thumb|left|Giovanni Comisso]]
The Charter of Carnaro, the constitution proclaimed during the occupation, exemplified the radical vision of Fiume’s rebels. It provided for universal male and female suffrage, freedom of opinion, religion, and sexual orientation, and went further to decriminalize homosexuality, nudism, and drug use. These provisions marked Fiume as a haven of progressive ideals that challenged the conservative norms of early 20th-century Europe.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/https://web.archive.org/web/20140102192356/http://ita.anarchopedia.org/Aspetti_libertari_dell'impresa_di_Fiume</ref> The enterprise would come to an end when the rebels, in opposition to the treaty of Rapallo between Italy and Yugoslavia, were forcefully removed from the city by the Italian royal army in the Bloody Christmas of 1920.

Despite its abrupt conclusion, the occupation of Fiume had a profound and lasting impact on Italian history and politics. It revealed the fragility of the Italian government, exposing its inability to handle radical domestic uprisings. Moreover, the nationalist organizations that supported the occupation became instrumental in the formation of the Italian Fascist Party. The cultural and political strategies employed by d’Annunzio—such as mass spectacles, charismatic leadership, and the fusion of political ideology with theatricality—profoundly influenced Benito Mussolini and shaped the core tenets of Fascism.

Fiume’s libertarian experiment remains a paradoxical legacy: while its progressive aspects symbolized freedom and defiance of conventional norms, its influence on Fascism underscores how radical movements can serve as stepping stones for authoritarian regimes. The enterprise continues to be studied as a defining moment in the interplay between utopian idealism and the rise of modern nationalism.

==France: Pederasty and WW2 collaborationism==
<blockquote>
''Sociological problem: why so many pederasts among the collaborators?''

'''Jean Guéhenno'''
</blockquote>

Journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Robert_Brasillach|'''Robert Brasillach''']], after his indictment for treason by the liberated French government, was shot in February 1945. His case is among the most unique ones, for he was condemned not for his actions so much as for his thoughts: He adhered to national socialist ideology and doctrine, defined by him as “the poetry of the XX century”. Among his contemporaries, many attest to his homosexuality.
[[File:Robert-brasillach.jpg|thumb|Robert Brasillach]]
Chief among them are Louis-Ferdinand Céline, Jean-Louis Bory, and Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, who thought of him as an effeminate pederast, with Bory using Brasillach as a prime example of the strong homoerotic nature of the collaborationist environment during the German occupation of Paris as part of his 1976 documentary. '''Jean-Paul Sartre''' thought that Drieu himself was a pederast, depicting him as a visionary dandy and lover of youthful rent-boys, but also of strong and virile German soldiers.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

Dominique Fernandez argues that the writer's homosexuality was latent - repressed, and therefore extremely harmful -, a fact that he began to participate in the annual Nuremberg ceremonies and visit the campsites of Hitler's youth from which he returned each time literally ecstatic; his homophilia as well as aesthetic tension towards homoeroticism constitutes, according to Mosse, an exemplary case about the homoerotic impulses widespread throughout Nazi culture.

Brasillach’s entire literary work revolves around the concept of strong male friendship, the camaraderie among men free from the hindrance of female presence, often explicitly referencing pederastic relationships. This is particularly evident in his first book from 1931, "''Présence de Virgile''," an authentic apology for homoeroticism: "Virgil loved to surround himself with young men. A boy of perfect beauty, who wrote poems and sang them while playing the flute, lived in his house. And often Virgil was captivated by the ambiguous charm of his own sex... Anyone who found this way of loving or this form of pleasure natural." Regarding his admired and intimate friendship with his contemporary (and future brother-in-law) Maurice Bardèche, as well as a figure in the French radical right, many gossiped, soon nicknaming them "Brasillecher and Bardache" (lèche in French means "lick," while bardache/bardassa refers to a young male prostitute).<ref>Alice Kaplan Processo e morte di un fascista. Il caso di Robert Brasillach, il Mulino 2003 pag.25</ref>
<blockquote>
''Children who will one day become twenty-year-old young men will learn with dark wonder about the existence of this exaltation, the youth camps, the glory of the past, the parades, the heroes fallen in combat, the friendship among young people of all nations... Communism, too, has its own greatness, equally exhilarating. It may even be that, in a thousand years, the two Revolutions of the twentieth century will be confused.''

'''Robert Brasillach'''<ref>cited in P. Serant Romanticismo fascista Sugar 1961, pag.253</ref>
</blockquote>

Apart from Brasillach, there are other French collaborationists who were homosexuals, such as [[Roger Peyrefitte]], author of the book “''Les Amitiés particulières''”, who faced accusations of collaboration over his diplomatic work for the Vichy regime.

==The post-war French New Right==

Like the subculture of French collaborationists in WW2-era France, pederasty and the appreciation of youth flourished alongside MAP advocacy in what would be termed as the ''Nouvelle droite'' (New Right).

<blockquote>
''The far-right press is hysterically hostile to “paedophiles”. They are in his eyes the enemy N. 1, the incarnation of the abhorred Left, and that makes me laugh because I have known, I know a very large number of “paedophiles” and they were, they are almost all Right or far-Right.''

'''[[Gabriel Matzneff]]'''<ref>[https://cnmnewz.com/2021/01/07/down-the-rabbit-hole-of-right-wing-pedophile-networks/ Down the rabbit hole of right wing pedophile networks]</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Joseph Douce variant.jpg|thumb|left|Doucé]]
'''[[Joseph Doucé]]''', a Flemish Belgian psychologist and (defrocked) Baptist minister, openly declared himself a homosexual in 1976, and founded the “''Centre of Christ the Liberator''” (Center du Christ liberateur) in Paris, a refuge for homosexuals, transgender people, sadomasochists, and pedophiles. He was a co-founder of [[ILGA]] (then called the “International Lesbian and Gay Association”), and in 1982 created a publishing firm called ''Lumière et Justice'' which would published under his direction. One such book was “''Paedophilia in question''” in which Doucé “develops scabrous theses and explains wanting to decriminalize paedophilia”.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://www.europe1.fr/societe/letrange-disparition-du-pasteur-douce-il-y-a-peu-de-chances-que-lon-connaisse-un-jour-la-verite-3838508</ref> Whilst Doucé himself is not explicitly known for being on the political Right, he managed the magazine subscriptions of the monthly ''Gaie France'' magazine created by far-right MAP advocate [https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] (see below). Doucé was connected to a British born priest named '''Nicolas Glencross''' who, since 1948, served a small parish in Nièvre, Saint-Léger-des-Vignes. While serving as a pastor to defend LGBT people, Glencross was also involved in nude photography of boys in places like India, Peru, and Sri Lanka, where he paid each child 50 francs.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.humanite.fr/node/79900&prev=search&pto=au</ref> Glencross also enjoyed drawing children naked. Prior to his arrest in 1990 and the subsequent police raid at Nièvre, Glencross kept contact with French journalist and publisher Michel Caignet.

[https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] was a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic and holocaust denier<ref>Nicolas Lebourg, « L'invention d'une doxa néo-fasciste : le rôle de l'avant-garde nationaliste-révolutionnaire. Idéologie négationniste, propagandes anti-américaine, anti-immigration, anti-juive »</ref> who, in 1986, founded the monthly ''Gaie France'' in which he proclaimed love for boys, with the aim of having a gay magazine with ideals closer to the French ''Nouvelle droite'' (“New Right”). '''Paul Raisant''' led ''Association of Friends of Gaie France'', which published a bulletin called ''Sparte, homosexualité et tradition'' in 1987. Nouvelle droite journalist '''Guillaume Faye''', writer '''Pierre Gripari''', militant atheist and gay rights activist '''Claude Courouve''', and far-right publisher '''Phillipe Randa''', son of novelist Peter Randa, were among its contributors,<ref>http://books.google.fr/books?id=5OuiSMd_HJsC&pg=PT121&dq=guillaume+faye+gaie+france&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=1rP0Up2hB6aO0AXw4oGYCw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=guillaume%20faye%20gaie%20france&f=false</ref> whilst Doucé himself managed the magazine’s subscriptions.<ref>https://www.cairn.info/revue-pardes-2005-1-page-49.htm?contenu=resume</ref> By ministerial decree dated 27 May 1992, for ''Gaie France'' the sale to minors was banned on charges of "inciting paedophilia"; it stopped publications the following year;<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000527183</ref> in 1997 Caignet was tried for the dissemination of pornographic films with minors produced in Colombia three years prior, under the name “Toro Bravo” for distribution to his readers, getting sentenced to four years in prison.

==Present-day==
[[File:Michael Kuehnen.jpg|thumb|Michael Kuehnen]]
In 1991, at the age of 36, [[Wikipedia:Michael_K%C3%BChnen|'''Michael Kühnen''']], the undisputed leader of German neo-Nazism in the 1970s and 1980s, died. He had AIDS and was homosexual in orientation.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> In 1986, he published an essay titled "''National Socialism and Homosexuality,''" referring to the homoerotic tradition within some male unions within the SA (''Sturmabteilung''). An "anti-fag rebellion" was begun by a group of his former followers; even his deputy, Thomas Brehl, was later declared a "fag" and marginalized from the neo-Nazi movement. To his former comrades, Kühnen urged his comrades to free themselves from the petty-bourgeois mentalities of Judeo-Christian origin. Instead, they should draw inspiration from the pagan teachings of nature's vitality, where homosexuality has always had its place and meaning.

Kühnen leadership remained unchallenged until 1990, when he proposed to the Iraqi ambassador to send volunteers to fight alongside Saddam Hussein's forces during the Gulf War. In 1986, while serving a prison sentence for extremism, he entrusted his friend and comrade '''Michel Caignet''' with the printing of the pamphlet. In it, Kühnen argued that homosexuality is a completely natural, hereditary predisposition, destined by nature for a small elite of men so that they can dedicate themselves to the service of community and cultural development without the burden and conditioning of reproductive sexuality. This perspective was not unprecedented in right-wing thought, as the early German gay rights activists of imperial Germany held similar views.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20141107202734/http://sororite-aryenne.com/michael-kuhnen-homosexualite-et-national-socialisme/; According to this pamphlet, unlike females, males have an indispensable cultural function, and their readiness for even extreme sacrifice is directed towards their peer group, not towards the family as women naturally do. In men, there is a surplus of sexual power that cannot be exhausted in the brief time spent with women. Therefore, this excess sexuality, when set free, should be channeled in favor of friends and in service to cultural society: the best and most useful solution is to use this libido additionally in relationships with other males, preferably with sexually mature adolescent boys. It further emphasizes that homosexuals play a pioneering role within society and the culture they support; being free from constraining ties with women and family, they can dedicate all their energies to embodying communal values. Anti-homosexual hostility developed within National Socialism due to the bourgeois mentality filled with moral prejudices of Judeo-Christian origin. Concludes Kühnen, masculine homosexuals ultimately prove to be the most suitable for leadership and indispensable for continuing the anti-bourgeois and anti-democratic struggle; unlike women, whose recognized role is predominantly private, homosexual males are assigned a prominent and socially significant public-cultural role.</ref>
[[File:Pim Fortuyn - May 4.jpg|thumb|left|Pim Fortuyn, pictured 2 days before his assassination]]
'''[[Wikipedia:Pim_Fortuyn|Pim Fortuyn]]''' (1948-2002), the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered on the 6th of May 2002, was a powerful advocate for pedophilia, standing to gain around 20% of the votes in the 2002 Dutch general election prior to his death. His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalization of drug laws, and his open homosexuality were well-known. Despite his approval of pedophilia not being a secret, Dutch journalists covering his election campaign ignored it. Ireen Van Engelen, an anti-pedophile campaigner in Holland, expressed frustration, stating, "I have been writing to journalists around the country for months as Fortuyn's popularity grew, asking them to challenge him on his views about pedophilia. But none of them dared. I also wrote to ministers, but none of them were interested. It's a disgrace." Fortuyn's own words shed light on his beliefs, as he wrote, "In the 1970s and 1980s, [[Edward_Brongersma|Brongersma]] slowly but surely gained ground...This enlightened point of view has meanwhile been abandoned... We are far removed from the understanding that Brongersma tried to foster, to our own detriment, for that matter." In his autobiographical work "''Babyboomers''", Fortuyn revealed early sexual experiences with adult males, justifying his stance on legality based on personal enjoyment of such experiences in his childhood when he was 5 years old.<ref>https://brongersma.info/Fortuyn_favoured_depraved</ref>

The American political science researcher and right-wing columnist, blogger, and online personality '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hanania Richard Hanania]''', has been critical of the expansive and incorrect use of the term "pedophile," now routinely used in the context of anyone expressing attraction to a person under 18-years old, rather than a preferential attraction to people before puberty (generally aged 13 or younger).<ref>On the idea of 'Concept Creep', or the meaning of certain concepts such as "trauma" and "pedophilia" being expanded far beyond their original purview, see [https://www.jstor.org/stable/43865764 Frank Furedi on Concept Creep (2016)], and historian Vern Bullough's "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00aug15e_the_p_smear.htm the pedophile smear]".</ref> Over time, Hanania has become critical of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_presidency_of_Donald_Trump Trump Regime] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_Again MAGA Movement], expressly disavowing his past racist and eugenicist views prior to 2023. Having a prominent Twitter (or X) presence, and having moved politically in far-right circles and even been one of several hundred contributors to the writing of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Project 2025], Hanania's shifting politics make him a highly nuanced and unusual right-wing intellectual and figure.<ref>Hanania, Richard (August 7, 2023). [https://quillette.com/2023/08/07/my-journey-out-of-extremism/ "My Journey Out of Extremism"]. ''Quillette''.</ref> In relation to [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s, and the expansion of victim culture, Hanania has written thoughtful articles such as ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"'' (2013).<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/hitler-demi-moore-and-other-pedophiles ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"''] (Substack, 2013).</ref> Alongside the independent journalist [https://www.mtracey.net '''Michael Tracey'''], Hanania has been critical of the conspiratorial obsession and [[moral panic]] associated with [[Jeffrey Epstein]].<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/the-beautiful-ironies-of-epstein ''The Beautiful Ironies of Epstein Conspiracy Theories''] (Substack, 2025).</ref>

In an interview from a January 2016 episode of the podcast Drunken Peasants, '''[[Milo Yiannopoulos]]''' explained how sexual relationships between 13-year-old boys and adult men and women can "happen perfectly consensually", because some 13-year-olds are sexually and emotionally matured enough to consent to sex with adults. He used his own experience as an example, pointing out that he was mature enough to be capable of giving consent at a young age. He also correctly stated that "pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to somebody 13 years old, who is sexually mature" but rather that "pedophilia is attraction to children who have not reached puberty." Later in the interview, after his previous comments received some pushback from the hosts, he stated: "I think the age of consent law is probably about right, that is probably roughly the right age ... but there are certainly people who are capable of giving consent at a younger age, I certainly consider myself to be one of them."<ref>https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milo-yiannopoulos-on-pedophilia-and-this-arbitrary_b_58ab52a5e4b029c1d1f88d77</ref>
[[File:Milo Yiannopoulos pride.jpg|thumb|Milo Yiannopoulos]]
Yiannopoulos thereafter claimed that his statements were merely attempts to cope with his own victimhood, yet in 2019, he appeared to agree with [[Jordan Peterson]] in affirming the content of Rind et al, a study that challenges the assumption of universal trauma.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20220815210303/https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/18gt</ref>

Following his defensive comments in 2017, Yiannopoulos was later criticized for attending Hollywood "boat parties" and "house parties" in which boys he described as "very young – very young" were engaged in pederasty but failing to report the abusers to the authorities or to identify them during an appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience. When asked about this by Ryan Lizza of New York magazine, Yiannopoulos said he "didn't check anyone's I.D.s." and that he "had no idea what the ages of any of those people at the parties were." He stated that when he said "very young" he was assuming that they were sixteen or seventeen. He reiterated that he doesn't "advocate for any illegal behavior" or excuse it. When, on 10 March, an additional video emerged in which he said on a 2015 episode of Gavin McInnes's show that minor-adult sex is "really not that big a deal. You can't let it ruin your life," Yiannopoulos was criticized for mocking [[child sexual abuse]] victims by calling them "whinging selfish brats" for [[Repressed_memory|"suddenly" remembering they were abused]] and "suddenly" deciding it was a problem 20 years after the event occurred. He also stated that a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual.<ref>https://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/how-alt-right-fellow-traveller-milo-yiannopoulos-cracked-up-the-right</ref><ref>https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/milo-yiannopoulos-described-sexual-abuse-victims-as-whinging</ref>

==Reasons for supporting the right among MAPs and AAMs==

Many advocates within the political right and centre-right argue for (limited or full) acceptance of MAPs (Minor-Attracted Persons), and/or voluntary sexual contact and relationships between minors and legal adults, citing various rationales. Some, interested more in logic, go on to view the concept of the arbitrary age of consent as illogical. Moreover, there's a prevalent sentiment against government interference in private matters, a stance particularly common among libertarians. Additionally, there's a reactionary attitude towards [[Feminism|feminism]], often viewed as hostile towards male heterosexuality and responsible for the current oppression of MAPs in the developed world as well as for advancing the modern age of consent. Some individuals also advocate for MAPs out of contrarianism or as a rejection of what they perceive as a modernist agenda that undermines traditional values, such as the preservation of the family as society’s basic unit. Unfortunately, many often limit their advocacy to the acceptance of hebephilia while trashing pedophilia, by using appeals to nature to point to their attraction being “natural” and thus “non-paraphilic”, unlike pedophilia, although such points seldom convince antis as to why they should carve out an exception for their hatred to teen-lovers. In a sense, anti-pedophilic hebephiles and ephebophiles share similarities with “ironic lolicons” in their bid for societal acceptance by striving to distance themselves from the “pedophilia” label.

Critics of the political Left's emphasis on egalitarianism and equality in all contexts argue that the leftist talking point of age-gap relationships being inherently abusive due to power imbalances derives from the same principles of radical individualism and absolute bodily autonomy used by pro-C MAPs in political discourse, with the critics pointing out that power imbalances are inherent in all personal relationships, thus questioning whether MAPs should engage in the dialectic of radical individualism and bodily autonomy instead of breaking said dialectic.

Within the community of male boylovers, certain aspects hold appeal. The neoclassical aesthetic, with its emphasis on beauty and harmony, resonates deeply. Moreover, there's a [[Erastoconservatism|fascination with the pedagogic tradition]] underpinning historical pederastic practices, where older mentors guided and educated younger individuals. Additionally, the concept of a mature man forming an intimate bond with a young boy, sharing experiences, and understanding of masculinity, serves as a cornerstone of attraction for some. These elements contribute to the multifaceted discourse surrounding rightist MAP advocacy within different forms of attraction.

===Old-school Republicans and Libertarians===

Just as boylovers can not be fit neatly into a singular [[Communism|radical leftist mould]], loved boys, or men with such experiences, have gone on to support a broad range of political philosophies. Gay historian and professor [[William Percy]] is one such example, as a lifelong Republican (prior to the current era). Despite being a supporter of the more conventionally conservative party (purportedly on the grounds of foreign policy), he expressed support for multiple sexually deviant and dissident groups throughout American society, leaving a legacy of constructive criticism toward what might be seen as reductive and essentializing tendencies in liberal sex dogma.<ref>[https://umassmedia.com/24238/uncategorized/professor-percy-on-why-i-am-a-republican/ The republicanism of William Percy]</ref> He is joined by libertarians such as Free Talk Live host Ian Bernard, who in 2010, defended his own underage relationships against a torrent of disdain from listeners.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH Ian Bernard, 2010]</ref>

==Editorial Commentary: Relevance of right-wing ideology, and discussion among MAPs==

Among political issues, right-wing ideology is a highly polarizing topic. MAPs are no exception from this rule, since their political opinions run the gamut of every part of the political spectrum, i.e. the general right-left divide is applicable to MAPs too. Some MAPs are non-partisan and instead see their MAP identity as the base for their beliefs.

Conversely, others see their [[MAP]] identity as secondary to their broader political convictions. Given the absence of a comprehensive critical theory addressing the needs and concerns of all segments of the minor attracted community, it's common for MAPs to integrate their political beliefs into their activism, hence many MAP rights activists draw upon various (and at times, contradictory) ideological frameworks, whether left or right-leaning, to advance the cause of MAP acceptance.

Among leftist and center-left MAPs, there exists a palpable aversion to anything associated with the political right, driven by historical antecedents and contemporary ideological clashes. This sentiment stems partly from a rejection of fascism and religion, and a commitment to countercultural movements (such as the sexual freedom and gay rights movements) that emerged in the post-war era, from which 1st-wave [[MAP Movement|MAP activism]] first emerges. Additionally, the influence of identitarian and secular-liberal politics among contemporary leftist movements has further entrenched this animosity towards right-wing ideologies. Left-leaning MAPs sometimes align themselves with broader leftist movements, such as sexual liberation, LGBTQ+ and secular liberalism, viewing them as allies in the fight for societal acceptance, individual autonomy and the liberation of MAPs as the continuation of a sexual, or identity-revolution.

In other cases, Left and Anarchist-leaning MAPs show open hostility towards the LGBTQ+ project, liberal values and some aspects of identity-based politics, characterizing them as reactionary.

MAPs who reject broader left-wing and liberal activism, may feel marginalized within the movements and perceive them as ineffective or even detrimental to their cause. Heterosexual girl-lovers, for instance, may view mainstream [[Feminism|feminism]] as obstructing the acceptance of their attractions and see little incentive to align with movements that display outright hostility to them and fail to address their concerns. Some MAPs, particularly those influenced by internet culture and "chan" imageboard communities, reject leftist politics altogether, viewing them as dogmatic and out of touch with reality. Right-leaning MAPs point to a variety of factors to justify their disassociation from leftist circles. They highlight increasing opposition to [[Queer|queer ideologies in Western societies]] and alleged failures of 1st-wave MAP activists in addressing man-girl love preceding their downfall in the 1990s. Secularization of anti-CSA dogma into a secular political "theology" in its own right throughout the Anglosphere and much of continental Europe is also a concern, as is the left’s realpolitik in perpetuating its own brand of [[pedophobia]]. Additionally, they perceive the mainstream left and [[Rainbow_Revisionism|LGBTQ+ lobby as hostile towards age-gap intimate relationships]], particularly heterosexual ones where the younger partner is female. They may argue that aligning with the left is counterproductive to their goals, and question if MAP rights activism is even safe restricting itself solely to left-radical politics.

Amidst this complex landscape of political ideologies, MAPs face the challenge of adapting to a rapidly changing political climate while striving for social acceptance and legal recognition. Recognizing the limitations of rigid ideological adherence, MAP rights activists must draw from the successes of diverse social movements throughout history and remain open to evolving strategies in pursuit of their goals. Only through such adaptability and resilience can the MAP rights movement hope to effect meaningful change in an imperfect world.

==See also==

[[Republicans are the real pedophiles]]

==External links==

*[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: French]][[Category:History & Events: Dutch]][[Category:History & Events: Danish]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 2000s]][[Category:History & Events: 2010s]][[Category:History & Events: 2020s]]

The Right-wing and Minor Attraction

2026-09-03T02:54:36Z

Prue:

<div style="margin-left: 25px; float: right; width: 40%;">__TOC__</div>{{Template:Adj}}'''[[Wikipedia:Right-wing_politics|Right-wing politics]]''' is the range of political ideologies that view certain social orders and hierarchies as inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically supporting this position based on natural law, economics, authority, property, religion, or tradition. Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences or competition in market economies.

Right-wing politics are considered the counterpart to [[Communism|left-wing politics]], and the left–right political spectrum is one of the most widely accepted. The right includes social conservatives and fiscal conservatives as well as right-libertarians. "Right" and "right-wing" have been variously used as compliments and pejoratives describing neoliberal, conservative, and fascist economic and social ideas.

It has become fashionable among [[Jeffrey Epstein|Epstein-Truthers]] on the left to promote what has been described as "[[Wiktionary:pedocon|pedocon theory]]" - the idea that right-wing politics is associated with sexually predatory behavior towards women and "children".

==Minor attraction and the Right Wing==

Despite [[Vigilantism|pedo-bashing]] being a favorite pastime among different identarian groups, many such accusations of [[Anti|MAP tendencies and projection / hypocrisy among right-wingers]], are partially or fully based on the truth. In the case of the political right, within the contexts of both Asian and European politics (and its derivatives), there's a long-storied connection to minor-attraction / youth love, often driven by traditionalism and a romantic view of the past, whilst religion also plays a major role.

This article will discuss the phenomenon of minor attraction from the perspective of the political right, outlining many figures who have made supportive statements about [[MAP]]s and (often) voluntary age-gap sexual contact.

==Young People and Fertility==

Historically and across many cultures, it was a normative or accepted practice in society for the bride or female partner to be younger than the male, as the older male would have more resources to provide for the younger partner. [[File:2094689396.jpg|thumb|left|Belle Delphine]] Based on [[Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality|evolutionary theory]], male heterosexual attraction towards pubescent and post-pubescent sexually developed / developing females (a normative aspect of human male sexuality),<ref name="hebe" /> is relatively advantageous for the survival and proliferation of the human species. The rationale is that during the period of menarche, female fecundity peaks, conferring them a reproductive advantage and greater success. In terms of the human male preference for [[Wikipedia:Neoteny|neoteny]], the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood, where men feel safe to do so they will often assert that young women represent the peak of their beauty across the life course.<ref name="hebe">See our pages on [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]], and [[Research: Prevalence]].</ref> This phenomenon is arguably evidenced in the modern, digital age, through the proliferation of online content posted to social media like [[Wikipedia:TikTok|TikTok]] and [[Wikipedia:Instagram|Instagram]], alongside subscription service porn sites like [[Wikipedia:OnlyFans|OnlyFans]], where popularity trends towards the most neotenous women who tend to be or appear teenaged.

Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Belle_Delphine|'''Belle Delphine''']], sometimes described (wrongly) as "pedobait,"<ref>[https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/coconutkitty143-diana-deets-onlyfans-instagram-pedobaiting-1193123/ Rollingstone article].</ref><ref>[https://metro.co.uk/2021/01/13/belle-delphine-responds-as-shes-accused-of-fetishising-rape-13894142/ Metro: Belle Defends Herself].</ref> OnlyFans stars like [https://wikitia.com/wiki/Sophie_Rain Sophie Rain] who reportedly made over $40million in one year by age 20, and dancing TikTokers who become stars as teenagers.<ref>Famous examples include [[Wikipedia:Loren_Gray|Loren Gray]] and [[Wikipedia:Charli_D%27Amelio|Charli D'Amelio]].</ref> Similarly, on the popular public forum website Reddit, a "Best of Reddit" user poll chose "r/Jailbait" - a space featuring provocative photos of underage teenagers - as "subreddit of the year." At one point, "jailbait" was the second most common search term on Reddit, until the forum was closed, providing further evidence that attraction to teens is widespread and commonplace.<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Jailbait Wiki on r/Jailbait].</ref>

Throughout history, many celebrities and idols are, or aim to be, neotenous. Given that widespread professed attraction to young people persists despite demonization, stigma, and severe penalties for those who transgress legal and (sometimes) social standards involving "minors," it is not entirely surprising to see age-gap relationships being widely documented from [[Research:_Nonwestern_Intergenerational_Relationships|cross-cultural]], [[Research:_Intergenerational_Sexual_Behaviors_in_Animals|cross-zoological]], and [[Intergenerational_Relationships_in_History|historical evidence]], but also for social conservatives to pick up on such facts to prove that adult men's attraction to young females is natural, and thus society's stigma of it is irrational.

==Support among religious groups==
[[File:Tony Alamo.jpg|thumb|left|Tony Alamo]]
Within religions, those that saw nothing wrong with intergenerational intimacy point to specific passages in their holy books and long-established legal precedents set by their religious jurists, to support their position. One such example are Islamic apologists like '''Daniel Haqiqatjou''' (of The Muslim Sceptic fame), who unlike his more “liberal” peers, outright defends [[Prophet_Muhammad|prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha]] and the practice of [[Youth-Adult_Marriage|youth-adult marriage]] by utilizing many pro-MAP arguments alongside typical traditionalist ones,<ref>https://fstube.net/w/1QoJyy4rWhp9UCcEhsyqVs</ref>. There are likely many other Islamic scholars that hold similar positions on this matter...
[[File:Berg.jpg|thumb|Berg]]
Notable Christian examples include '''Tony Alamo''' and '''Warren Jeffs''' of the ''Alamo Christian Foundation and the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints'' (FLDs), respectively. Both preachers were claimed to have facilitated marriages involving female minors and adult males, as well as unlawful sexual contact (rendered in much mainstream literature as [[Child_Sexual_Abuse|child sex abuse]]).<ref>http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/24/arkansas.evangelist.trial/</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20110104105347/http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2010/12/01/polygamist_sect_leader_jeffs_a.html</ref> The FLDs would condone such practice under the Mormon doctrine of “celestial marriage” until 2008, when its policy was changed to allow marriages only within the legal American age. Similar accusations made against various Christian cults like the twelve tribes and the ''Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Clare Prophet'', as well as ''The Family International'' of '''David Brandt Berg''', who reportedly stated that "God was love and love was sex", so that sex should not be limited by age or relationship, according to one former member.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20210826121314/https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932</ref> The case of the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities|Twelve Tribes]] is also of interest among scholar of moral panics, due to the controversy over the [[Wikipedia:Twelve_Tribes_communities#The_Island_Pond_raid|Island Pond raid]] that saw the judge presiding over the case dismissing every single child abuse charge over the search warrant being unconstitutional.<ref>Smith, Colin (June 26, 1984). "ACLU: Raid on Sect was Lawless act by Vermont". The Boston Globe. New York Times Company – via Newspapers.com</ref> To this day, youth-adult marriage (counting only those below the age of 18) is a widespread practice among the Christian parts of Africa and Asia, as well as across both Americas,<ref>https://www.unicef.org/lac/en/child-marriage-and-early-unions-in-latin-america-and-the-caribbean</ref> suggesting that for many Christians the practice is deemed valid within their current cultural and religious norms, although such norms have been eroding over the years as a result of recent imperialist pressure emanating from the west.

Among adherents of Judaism, it’s of note that youth-adult marriage is still practiced among many within the Hasidic community, with some members attesting over the practice and recent arrests bringing the matter to light.<ref>https://www.timesofisrael.com/brooklyn-hasidic-rabbi-said-under-investigation-over-alleged-child-marriages/</ref><ref>https://forward.com/news/476631/rabbi-yoel-roth-hasidic-child-marriage-heichel-hakodesh-breslov/</ref>

Among non-Abrahamic religions, Hinduism stands out for the presence of scholars and philosophers that see nothing wrong with the practice of youth-adult marriage as documented in the Rigveda, the Atharvaveda, the Manusmriti, and the Dharmaśāstra.<ref>https://vedkabhed.com/index.php/2014/01/03/paedophilia-in-hinduism/</ref>

==In modern times==
[[File:Matt Walsh (cropped).jpg|thumb|left|Matt Walsh]]
Over the years, support for minor attraction among various spectrum of the right moved over into the secular realm, with the rise of the alt-right and the broader manosphere bringing forth arguments questioning the concept of an age of consent and criticizing the feminist stigmatisation of man-girl love and the common heterosexual male attraction to pubescent girls (i.e., [[hebephilia]] and [[ephebophilia]]) on the basis that such feminist outrage is often disingenuous and serves only the interest of a very prejudiced subsect of older and bitter women who want to stamp out sexual competition from younger and more desirable girls for the attention of the same men.

In the alt-lite, a more recent example is that of '''Matt Walsh''', who once stated that society would benefit from having 16-year-old girls being pregnant, criticizing the current western problematization of teen pregnancy as being misleading, stating that the actual problem lies in how such births are generally out of wedlock.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/45SpixTpJLCWdcTosKSCRt</ref> In a car interview, he also questioned the entire framework of consent within sexual relationships, using the example of actress Asia Argento being accused of statutory rape of a 17-year-old boy to critique the age of consent.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/mzrK12fBhKBzwjfVcK3Bex</ref>

Alt-right personalities sympathetic to man-girl love include political commentators like ''Daily Stormer'''s founder '''Andrew Anglin''', who uses a mix of both traditionalist and secular to argue against the age of consent and ridiculing the current wave of criminalization of female teachers having sex with their students.<ref>https://archive.ph/dkvbY</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/0Jlkp</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/sJ1D4</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/5irUh</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/NYcTs</ref><ref>https://archive.ph/tf1ju</ref> Similarly, ''cozy.tv'' CEO '''Nick Fuentes''' has argued that the [[age of consent]] is a [[Feminism|feminist]] invention used by older women to block younger and more desirable (to straight men) teen girls from sexual competition, as well as to lower the birth rate by discouraging sexual reproduction among the young, thus being detrimental to the family and society as a whole.<ref>https://fstube.net/w/kuHBXgAno3gjYcSHqdscgn</ref>

Anglin is one of the few western right-wingers that has analyzed the various British “[[grooming]]” scandals with the idea of the girls being co-conspirators rather than victims, thus breaking from the general right-wing Christian feminist consensus of seeing such girls as “victims” in all cases.<ref>https://archive.is/VzwkE</ref> It should be noted though that they’re strictly speaking about man-teen girl love, as they generally condemn homosexuality and actual pedophilia (which they exclusively see an entirely homosexual phenomenon) in all its forms.<ref>https://archive.is/f5psx</ref>
[[File:NickFuentes.jpg|thumb|Nick Fuentes]]
Former Fox News commentator '''[[Tucker Carlson]]''', despite his performative condemnation of [[MAP]]s as a woke phenomenon, had a history of defending intergenerational intimacy in certain instances, such as when he called the prospect of prosecuting a female teacher being arrested for lap-dancing in front of a student in a class "deranged," saying, "there's no victim here." In a later segment discussing the same incident, he said the lap dance would be "the greatest thing that ever happened," for most teen boys.<ref>https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2014/05/05/foxs-carlson-men-understand-that-getting-sexual/199169</ref> Carlson defended a relationship between a 16-year-old boy and his older female teacher, arguing that sex between the two wasn't rape, saying, "It's ludicrous that we are calling this a rape. Are you serious?" "You're this boy, and all of a sudden you're a rape victim? You pursue an older woman, and have a relationship with her, and you're a rape victim?"<ref>https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/tucker-carlson-statutory-rape-whiny</ref>
<blockquote>
''The rapist, in this case, has made a lifelong commitment to live and take care of the person, so it is a little different. I mean, let's be honest about it," Carlson said of Jeffs' marriages, before clarifying that he's against the practice. Later, in a 2009 recording, he said, "If a guy wants to be polygamist, that's kind of his business ... I'm just telling you that arranging a marriage between a 16-year-old and a 27-year-old is not the same as pulling a stranger off the street and raping her.''<ref>https://www.businessinsider.in/in-past-segments-tucker-carlson-defended-relationships-between-teens-and-adults-and-called-out-samantha-bee-for-saying-c-/articleshow/68365055.cms</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Cheong.jpg|thumb|Tweets deleted by Cheong]]
Similar to Carlson, Malaysian influencer, '''Ian Miles Cheong'''<ref>[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]</ref> has been repeatedly criticized for his views on Adult-Minor Sexual Relations, despite performing anti-Muslim and anti-LGBT grooming outrage in more recent years.

During his short political career, '''Nathan Larson''' had the unenviable distinction of being a mildly fascistic ("libertarian") and paraphilic MAP, and unsurprisingly, he was shunned by many. Deemed as central to the incel/pedocel movement and peripheral to the [[MAP Movement]] in the late 00s and 10s, he is a highly divisive figure among MAPs, due not only to his views on race (advocating for what he termed as "benevolent white supremacy") but because of his misogyny and apparent advocacy for rape, which was likely insincere in part, but to a degree that is rarely agreed upon by most observers. As well as supporting the decriminalization of minor-adult sex, Larson also favored the legalization of [[child pornography]], polygyny, and [[incest]] in his 2008 manifesto when he was still running an election to congress.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20180606111002/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/06/01/hes-pro-incest-pedophilia-and-rape-hes-also-running-for-congress-from-his-parents-house/</ref> He was against the US Government's foreign interventionism and regime change agenda, and against what he saw as Jewish domination of the American political and financial systems. After being banned from Wikipedia, he then went on to contribute to and found various chat rooms and wikis supporting topics as disparate as inceldom and children's rights. He wound up starving himself to death in a jail cell after being charged with kidnapping and other felonies, after he had developed a relationship with a 12-year-old as a sign of protest, who was intercepted by police after she had flown out to meet him.<ref>https://www.rawstory.com/nathan-larson/</ref>
[[File:Tucker Carlson.jpg|thumb|left|Tucker Carlson]]
Within the manosphere, the view on heterosexual attraction varies wildly, from outright condemnation to the embrace of at least heterosexual [[hebephilia]] in various parts of the movement, while other show apathy to it, viewing the issue as peripheral and not worth the trouble. The case of the “pedocel” and advocacy for the lowering of the [[age of consent]] to puberty is well documented in the [[incelosphere]].

An example of such embrace comes from '''James C. Weidmann''', founder of the now-defunct pick-up blog ''Chateau Heartiste'', who justifies male attraction to female teenagers as being a natural part of male sexuality:
<blockquote>
''It is a fact of life that young teenage girls who have developed secondary sexual characteristics are desired by men of all ages, even 90-year-olds. And these exquisite nymphets, in turn, desire older men for their power. These desires are natural and frightening to the keepers of the order. They provoke the envy of the left behind, and so are condemned.''<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20120205222738/https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/march-2008-comment-winner/</ref>
</blockquote>
Among [[Masculism|masculinist]] and [[Wikipedia:Men%27s_rights_movement|men’s rights activists]] (MRAs), the views vary wildly, with past MRAs often being critical of the [[age of consent]] and how it disproportionately affects men and fuels the current stigmatization of male heterosexuality in western society. Here, the the age of consent is viewed largely as part of [[Feminism|feminist]] legislation that harms men, although few if any have ever gone to expand their critique beyond their support for hebephilia.<ref>https://archive.ph/oQejZ</ref> Another notable figure within the movement includes the (now deceased) Angry Harry, who vehemently opposed the NSPCC for its demonization of men and for what he essentially saw an abuse industry in itself,<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111012052601/http://angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111011161725/http://angryharry.com/esNSPCCNeedsToBeStopped.htm</ref><ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20111010185357/http://www.angryharry.com/esNSPCCExposedYetAgain.htm?note</ref> taking shots at the [[Research:_Secondary_Harm|iatrogenic harm]] induced by the mainstream media.<ref>https://avoiceformen.com/featured/how-the-tabloids-encourage-child-abuse/</ref> He would also go on to celebrate Michael Jackson’s non-guilty verdict as a victory for men in general; a victory over a hysterical and misandrist society.<ref>https://angryharry.mra-archive.com/Michael%20Jackson%20-%20A%20Victory%20for%20Men.htm</ref>

Another example includes former MRA and current male sexualist '''Eivind Berge''', who calls into question the [[age of consent]] and the various laws surrounding it (such as the Romio and Juliet exemptions),<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BnHZbunBEA</ref><ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknytDXqlY</ref> on the top of defending [[pedophilia]] in general (making him exceptional in the manosphere), women-boy relationships that don’t involve force or coercion but are still criminalized due to gender equalization in statutory rape laws advocated by late feminists.<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q1xp5BXv30</ref> To this day, few prominent MRAs ever criticize the entire concept of an age of consent, let alone voluntary sex involving female teens.

'''Robert Lindsay''' is one such activist, with his website Night Wind, who have gone against the current dogmatic American hysteria over adult-teen intimacy and the modernist idea that “kids can’t consent to sex”,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/11/25/age-of-consent-laws-and-adult-teen-sex-then-and-now/</ref><ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/08/11/the-kids-cant-consent-to-sex-bullshit/</ref> as well as attacking the recent panic over sexting and its mainstream portrayal as another form of abuse,<ref>https://beyondhighbrow.com/2023/06/20/underage-girls-doing-sexual-webcamming-are-being-abused/</ref> levying arguments against the [[age of consent]] as being illogical and ideologically-driven.<ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2023/01/sex-and-scientism.html</ref><ref>https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2016/09/americas-pornography-culture.html</ref>

In the internet era, some openly MAP-identified groups such as [[PCMA]] have permitted membership of political radicals, including those of the right. This has been protested strongly by MAPs of the authoritarian and libertarian left traditions, as well as liberals.

==Pederasty and the right-wing==

Despite the idea being seemingly contradictory and subject to humor and derision in mainstream discourse, there is a long history of association between right-wing ideology and homoerotic aesthetics (in particular, pederasty, particularly amongst West European and Japanese fascists, who draw their justifications from their respective ancient cultures).
[[File:Roman-toga-Tiberius-Paris-Louvre.jpg|thumb|left|Tiberius]]
==Past epochs==

In the European context, antecedents include ancient Greek philosopher Plato, who in his ''Phaedrus'' and ''Symposium'' extensively describes the reality of the attraction between people of the same sex (including [[pederasty]]), and the Laws that reject it and condemn it. In the ancient Roman context, pederasty was condensed down to a practice between a more dominant male and a more passive one, to preserve semblances of masculinity. With the exception of Claudius, every Julio-Claudian Roman emperor often “lapsed”, so to speak, into “anti-natural” behavior during their lifetime, or accused of such after their deaths: Julius Caesar nicknamed the “Queen of Bithynia and the wife of all husbands”<ref>https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/551722/Osgood_Caesar_and_Nicomedes_Classical_Quarterly.pdf</ref>; Augustus was called Octavia with contempt; Tiberius who in Capri preferred barely pubescent boys and called them his “little fish”<ref>https://www.walksinsiderome.com/blog/about-rome/the-scandalous-private-life-of-tiberius-caesar/</ref>; Bisexual and incestuous [[Wikipedia:Caligula|Caligula]]; Nero who castrates his teenage slave [[Wikipedia:Sporus|Sporus]] and then crowns him as royal bride. Other emperors weren’t immune to this, with Hadrian and his profound affection for [[Wikipedia:Antinous|Antinous]], to the point of deifying the latter.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

In Asia, the orientalist Leonardo Vittorio Arena points to the promiscuous activities within Buddhist monasteries of the IX century as the origin of codified [[Pederasty_in_Japanese_culture|homosexuality among Japanese samurai]], that differs from Greek pederasty in that it’s the young novice that is supposed to take the initiative with the more mature partner. This lineage of homoeroticism that starts from the Buddhist monk-novice relationships to samurai culture, culminates with nationalist author Yukio Mishima and his seppuku (i.e., ritualized suicide) of 1970.<ref>L.V. Arena Samurai Mondadori 2033</ref><ref>Omosessuali di destra, preface by Giorgio Galli pag. XIII-XIV</ref>

==Modern era: Neoclassic, romantic, and homoerotic aesthetics==
[[File:Friedrich-alfred-krupp-1854-1902.jpg|thumb|Friedrich Alfred Krupp]]
Historian George Mosse affirms the existence of a continuity in the paradigm of beauty and masculinity that starts with German art historian and archaeologist '''Johann Joachim Winckelmann,''' his detailed and rigorous descriptions of Greco-Roman art, which influenced the Third Reich’s noted sculptor '''Arno Breker''', or Hitler’s favorite architect '''Albert Speer'''.<ref>Historian George Mosse himself demonstrated in his "Sexuality and Nationalism," the very close links between the so-called third sex and the totalitarian character: G. Mosse Sexuality and Nationalism, Laterza 1986.</ref> Winckelmann’s subsequent influence on various German figures such as [[Friedrich_Nietzsche|Nietzsche]], Spengler and [[Johann_Wolfgang_von_Goethe|Goethe]] have been provocatively dubbed as the “tyranny of Greece over Germany”.<ref>Paolo Zanotti, Classici dell'omosessualità, BUR, 2006</ref> For his part, Winckelmann denied any relationship between perfect beauty and the desire to have sexual relations with this beauty, even if [[Giacomo Casanova]] implied that he practiced pederasty.<ref>G. Mosse. Sexuality and Nationalism, p. 15. However, Mosse concludes by noting the irony "in the fact that a homosexual, Winckelmann, had adapted Greek art to the tastes of the middle classes and provided the model for the national male stereotype." Moreover, the episode narrated by [[Giacomo Casanova]] in “Storia della mia vita” is well known: one day he went to visit Winckelmann who lived in Rome, he finds a young and beautiful boy intent on quickly pulling up his pants in an obvious attempt to compose himself in a hurry" (Casanova, Storia della mia vita, Mondadori vol. IV, pp. 262-3.)</ref> The Greek virile body, re-discovered via Winckelmann’s descriptions, would later be used by the various European nationalist movements as the normative ideal for European masculinity.

Italy and Greece were popular destinations for German conservative elites who were fascinated by classical culture. Such noblemen include literary and cultural giants like: Winckelmann (fatally stabbed by a rent boy in Trieste); count August von Platen, the inspiration for the protagonist of '''[[Thomas Mann]]’s''' [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|''Death in Venice'']]; Steel magnate '''Friedrich Alfred Krupp''' (committing suicide in 1902 following accusations that he engaged in orgies with Italian boys)<ref>http://www.giovannidallorto.com/krupp/krupp.html#grotta</ref>; Photographer '''[[Wilhelm von Gloeden]]''', whose pederastic photography work in Taormina featuring Sicilian boys is deemed seminal in male nude photography.<ref>[https://archive.org/details/censoringsexresearch Gert Hekma and Donald H. Mader. (2013). Same Sex, Different Ages: On Pederasty in Gay History, in ''Censoring Sex Research''.]</ref>
[[File:Friedrich Nietzsche.jpg|thumb|left|Nietzsche]]
[[Communism|Friedrich Engels]], one of the founding fathers of communism and close collaborator of [[Communism|Karl Marx]], threw his disgust against the abominable vice of the pederasts in "''The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State''" (1884), denouncing Greek antiquity for its homosexual activity.<ref>Historian [[Hubert Kennedy]] has famously written on Marx's homophobia.</ref> By contrast, '''[[Friedrich Nietzsche]]''', who some Nazi politicians had attempted to appropriate as "one of the pillars of right-wing thought," spoke positively of historical [[pederasty]]. In the aphorism 259 of “Human, Too Human” (1879), he wrote:
<blockquote>
''The erotic relationships of men with young people were, to a degree not accessible to our understanding, the necessary and only assumption of any virile education ''[...]''. Young people have never been treated so carefully, so lovingly, with such an absolute regard to their good again''</blockquote>

It is likely that the late [[Wikipedia:Enoch Powell|Enoch Powell]] - a former classical scholar famous for his right-wing politics, was a closeted homosexual and pederastically inclined. He was indeed a pioneer in liberalising the laws against homosexuality, although as a married man and supporter of working-class conservatism, he hid these aspects of his personality.<ref>[https://villagemagazine.ie/suffer-little-children/ Village Magazine - Powell], [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/16/double-lives-a-history-of-sex-and-secrecy-at-westminster The Guardian - Powell]</ref>

==Germany: The pioneers of gay rights activism, gay German youth, and Nazism==
[[File:Adolf brand.jpg|thumb|Adolf brand]]
The German Empire in the late 19th century served as the birthplace of the [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|initial homosexual movement]], with figures like '''Karl Heinrich Ulrichs''' and '''Magnus Hirschfeld''' pioneering gay rights activism. A lawyer and journalist, Ulrichs publicly declared his sexual preferences in 1867, advocating for the repeal of repressive laws before dying in exile in 1895. Hirschfeld succeeded him, establishing a Scientific-Humanitarian Committee in 1897 and an Institute for Sexual Research in 1919, providing medical, psychological, and legal support for homosexuals, though the institute was later targeted and destroyed by the Nazis in 1933. Notable signatories to Hirschfeld's petition to repeal paragraph 175 of German law criminalizing “acts against nature” included Stefan Zweig, Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy, and '''[[Thomas Mann]]'''. Despite these efforts, a wave of homophobia swept Germany following the [[Wikipedia:Eulenburg_affair|Eulenburg affair of 1907-09]].<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> Concurrently, the Anarchist '''[[Wikipedia:Adolf_Brand|Adolf Brand]]''' founded ''Der Eigene'' in 1896, the first homosexual periodical in the world, advocating "outing" famous gay men and challenging social norms. Brand's anarchist radicalism contrasted with Hirschfeld's [[Communism|socialism]], and his writings have been reclaimed by romanticist anarchists (although they often omit his nationalist and elitist views).

In 1900, Brand published the first anthology of gay poetry in Germany, called [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieblingminne_und_Freundesliebe_in_der_Weltliteratur ''Lieblingminne und Freundesliebe in der Weltliteratur''] [Favourite love and love of friends in world literature]. It was compiled by '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisar_von_Kupffer# Elisar von Kupffer]''', who wrote [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 a politically charged preface] which argued in favor of a homosexuality that is not just "tolerated" by society, but an integral part of society.<ref>Kupffer, E. von. (1992). [https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v22n01_03 The Ethical-Political Significance of Lieblingminne (1899)]. ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 22(1–2), 35–48.</ref> For '''von Kupffer''', homosexuality brought with it homosocial bonds that strengthened society in ways that heterosexual relationships could not. He argued against what he perceived as Magnus Hirschfeld's notion of a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender third sex], and opposed a notion of "gay" which hinged on a feminized model of male behavior. During World War 1, von Kupffer moved to Ticino, where he established himself as a butcher and muralist in Locarno, Switzerland. There, he made photographic studies of boys for use in the creation of his paintings, and transformed their villa in Minusio, near Lake Maggiore, into an opulent collection of art, the ''Sanctuarium Artis Elisarion''. As gay historian Harry Oosterhuis put it, "The walls of this temple and museum in one consisted of a monumental painting by Kupffer of eighty-four strikingly similar naked ephebic youths in various positions."<ref>[https://cris.maastrichtuniversity.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/129225040/Oosterhuis_2000_Elisar_von_Kupffer_Gay_Histories_and_Cultures.pdf Oosterhuis, H. (2000). Elisar von Kupffer (1872-1942). In G. E. Haggerty (Ed.), Gay Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia (pp. 524-525). Garland Publishing].</ref>
[[File:Benedict Friedlaender.jpg|thumb|left|Benedict Friedlaender]]
In 1903, Brand, militant activist of Jewish ancestry [[Wikipedia:Benedict_Friedlaender|'''Benedict Friedlaender''']], and ten colleagues founded the homosexual organization [[Wikipedia:Gemeinschaft_der_Eigenen|''Gemeinschaft der Eigenen'' (GdE)]], usually translated as Community of the Special. The GdE rejected Hirschfeld's understanding of homosexuality as a "third sex," "inverted" sexuality, or effeminate disposition. Instead, they emphasized the masculinity of male-male sexuality, as did the Nobel prize winning homosexuality (and pederasty) defender [[Andre Gide]] in his 1924 ''Corydon''. Whilst divided over nationalism, many members of the GdE found alignment in their appraisal for the classical Greek practice of [[pederasty]] as an important social institution. The GdE spurned Hirschfeld's efforts at law reform and coalition-building with the Social Democrats and the feminist movement, adopting instead a diffusely anarchist outlook inspired by Max Stirner's egoist individualism, and the sweeping cultural criticism of [[Friedrich Nietzsche]].

[[Wikipedia:Gustav_Wyneken|'''Gustav Wyneken''']] was a German pedagogue and writer, who in 1921 published "Eros," an essay that exalted love between boys. Gustav Wyneken was neither to the far-right nor a left-wing extremist, but his influence on educational theory was profound. His ideas of “youth culture” and “pedagogical eros” gave inspiration to movements like the ''Wandervogel'' (officially founded in 1901), and Brand's GdE.

'''[[Wikipedia:Wandervogel|The Wandervogel movement]]''' quickly became the prominent youth movement in the nation, aiming to be an organization in constant empathy with the natural environment. It emphasized freedom from adult supervision, spontaneity, and responsibility towards others, alongside a spirit of adventure, while ideologically adopting a strong nationalist approach rooted in tradition and highlighting Germany's Teutonic (mythical pagan) roots, inspired by ancient Greece and the naturalist movement.<ref>There is some evidence that communities of intergenerational same-sex lovers were created through this movement. See, Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link). For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras, where she writes: "Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

In 1912, journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|'''Hans Blüher''']], a leading figure in this right-wing youth homosexual movement, published an essay titled "The Wandervogel Movement as an Erotic Phenomenon," subtitled "Contribution to the Recognition of Sexual Inversion." His writings have rarely been translated in English, but as of 2024, an English pamphlet created by a relatively obscure (defunct) [[MAP_Movement|French MAP political organization]], had become freely available online.<ref>[https://annas-archive.org/md5/70ceb0b6789190cc243a792acf04659f Hans Blüher, Heinrich Hoffstiepel [translator<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Michel Meigniez de Cacqueray [prelude<nowiki>]</nowiki>, Konrad Wolff, Michel Caignet, ''Family and Male Fraternity: A Theory of the Eros'' (Les Dioscures, 1994 [1917<nowiki>]</nowiki>)].</ref> Blüher clearly states that the common denominator binding these young males together is Eros, meaning erotic attraction between individuals of the same sex. He further asserts that homoerotic impulses are fundamental for forging bonds of masculine friendship, with its parallel celebration of camaraderie among males creating a "pure community of men," thereby assuming a meaningful cultural role. For Blüher, this sublimated homosexual erotic tension manifests as an excess of energy, a vital force that, unable to find physical expression, culminates in the "creative genius" of a “Mannerbund,” or society of men.
[[File:Hans Bluher.jpg|thumb|Hans Blüher]]
[[Wikipedia:Hans_Bl%C3%BCher|Blüher]] would later revisit the same themes between 1917 and 1919, with two volumes of "The Role of Eroticism in Male Society." His books became cult texts among homosexuals of his era, including some Nazi leaders, notably Ernst Rohm. Later in 1926, the lawyer '''Erich Ebermayer''' published "Youth and Eros," an explicit defense of adolescent homosexuality and pederasty; a text publicly appreciated by '''[[Thomas Mann]]''' himself.

The homoeroticism as represented by these movements, had less to do with free love than with building a relational hierarchy between men, where the selection of an elite to lead the masses would take place among males. This idea of a fraternity of men would essentially separate the boy from the mother's (and women's) negative influences, and raising a boy to be a “real man” with masculine vigor. Such values would be inculcated in the boy via scouting and other hierarchical organizations. Pederasty and fraternal relationships would thus serve to morally reinvigorate what these thinkers saw as a morally decadent society.<ref>https://pinko.online/pinko-2/reactionary-masculinity</ref>

Blüher's ideas about the "manly alliance" between males, against the woman's "devirilizing" influence, came to be viewed with hostility by the Nazi hierarchies. This was especially after the night of the long knives physically liquidated the group of people most sensitive to Blüher's theories: homosexual themselves. In a secret speech given by Heinrich Himmler to the SS in 1937, Blüher's ideas were expressly indicated as dangerous and to be opposed.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.culturagay.it/cg/viewDoc.php?id=1</ref>

==D’Annunzio’s enterprise in Fiume==
<blockquote>
''Defend the beauty! This is your only office. Defend the dream that is in you!''

'''Gabriele D’Annunzio'''
</blockquote>

Futurism, an Italian cultural and artistic movement that had its start in the early 20th century, held a more libertine attitude on sexuality for its time, where instead of a rigid heterosexuality-homosexuality binary there was, if anything, a clear distinction between active and passive sexuality. Futurists ultimately only despised effeminacy with its cheesy and too languid attitudes.
[[File:Gabriele-di-annunzio.jpg|thumb|Gabriele D'Annunzio]]
The hypocrisy in this regard had a significant exception in 1919-20, during the enterprise of Fiume (now Rijeka) by rebel units of the Royal Italian Army under the command of the poet-warrior [[Wikipedia:Gabriele_D%27Annunzio|'''Gabriele D’Annunzio''']], at the time a city contested between the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (i.e., monarchist Yugoslavia) following World War 1. His occupation, motivated by Italian irredentism, gave life to the '''Italian Regency of Carnaro''', which would last for sixteen months. To give us direct testimony is the bisexual writer '''Giovanni Comisso''', who participated in the action when he was 24 years old: Transgression of the norms, mass rebelliousness, sexual freedom, homosexuality, drug use, originality of attitudes, were the main characteristics of this counter-society.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

The occupation of the Istrian city constitutes a transgressive social experiment, especially in terms of sexuality. Futurist '''Mario Carli''', in his book ''"Trillirì"'' (1922), says in no uncertain terms that pushing many volunteers to Fiume would have been precisely the open sexuality, hence the presence of the widest variety of people, "from the colonel looking for women to the pederast looking for boys".
<blockquote>
''One day from the window of his office D'Annunzio saw the Arditi ''[Royal Italian elite troops]'' going two by two towards the hill and pointed to them saying: "Look at my soldiers, they go in pairs like Pericles' soldiers.''

'''Giovanni Commiso''', ''Le mie stagioni'' (2002)
</blockquote>
The Fiume occupation led by Gabriele d’Annunzio was not only a political revolt but also a cultural experiment characterized by a bold embrace of libertarian ideals and radical social norms. D’Annunzio, often referred to as the Comandante-Vate, infused the enterprise with a spirit of transgression and celebration of freedom, epitomized in the shared vision of the Futurist movement. The atmosphere encouraged "unlimited enjoyments, amusements, and a free flow of desires," promoting uninhibited behavior devoid of traditional moral constraints. After his iconic battle cry, “Eia! Eia! Eia! Alalà!!,” d’Annunzio would famously conclude with the exclamation, “Long live Love!”—a declaration reflecting the revolutionary ethos of the movement.
[[File:Giovanni comisso.jpg|thumb|left|Giovanni Comisso]]
The Charter of Carnaro, the constitution proclaimed during the occupation, exemplified the radical vision of Fiume’s rebels. It provided for universal male and female suffrage, freedom of opinion, religion, and sexual orientation, and went further to decriminalize homosexuality, nudism, and drug use. These provisions marked Fiume as a haven of progressive ideals that challenged the conservative norms of early 20th-century Europe.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/https://web.archive.org/web/20140102192356/http://ita.anarchopedia.org/Aspetti_libertari_dell'impresa_di_Fiume</ref> The enterprise would come to an end when the rebels, in opposition to the treaty of Rapallo between Italy and Yugoslavia, were forcefully removed from the city by the Italian royal army in the Bloody Christmas of 1920.

Despite its abrupt conclusion, the occupation of Fiume had a profound and lasting impact on Italian history and politics. It revealed the fragility of the Italian government, exposing its inability to handle radical domestic uprisings. Moreover, the nationalist organizations that supported the occupation became instrumental in the formation of the Italian Fascist Party. The cultural and political strategies employed by d’Annunzio—such as mass spectacles, charismatic leadership, and the fusion of political ideology with theatricality—profoundly influenced Benito Mussolini and shaped the core tenets of Fascism.

Fiume’s libertarian experiment remains a paradoxical legacy: while its progressive aspects symbolized freedom and defiance of conventional norms, its influence on Fascism underscores how radical movements can serve as stepping stones for authoritarian regimes. The enterprise continues to be studied as a defining moment in the interplay between utopian idealism and the rise of modern nationalism.

==France: Pederasty and WW2 collaborationism==
<blockquote>
''Sociological problem: why so many pederasts among the collaborators?''

'''Jean Guéhenno'''
</blockquote>

Journalist and writer [[Wikipedia:Robert_Brasillach|'''Robert Brasillach''']], after his indictment for treason by the liberated French government, was shot in February 1945. His case is among the most unique ones, for he was condemned not for his actions so much as for his thoughts: He adhered to national socialist ideology and doctrine, defined by him as “the poetry of the XX century”. Among his contemporaries, many attest to his homosexuality.
[[File:Robert-brasillach.jpg|thumb|Robert Brasillach]]
Chief among them are Louis-Ferdinand Céline, Jean-Louis Bory, and Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, who thought of him as an effeminate pederast, with Bory using Brasillach as a prime example of the strong homoerotic nature of the collaborationist environment during the German occupation of Paris as part of his 1976 documentary. '''Jean-Paul Sartre''' thought that Drieu himself was a pederast, depicting him as a visionary dandy and lover of youthful rent-boys, but also of strong and virile German soldiers.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref>

Dominique Fernandez argues that the writer's homosexuality was latent - repressed, and therefore extremely harmful -, a fact that he began to participate in the annual Nuremberg ceremonies and visit the campsites of Hitler's youth from which he returned each time literally ecstatic; his homophilia as well as aesthetic tension towards homoeroticism constitutes, according to Mosse, an exemplary case about the homoerotic impulses widespread throughout Nazi culture.

Brasillach’s entire literary work revolves around the concept of strong male friendship, the camaraderie among men free from the hindrance of female presence, often explicitly referencing pederastic relationships. This is particularly evident in his first book from 1931, "''Présence de Virgile''," an authentic apology for homoeroticism: "Virgil loved to surround himself with young men. A boy of perfect beauty, who wrote poems and sang them while playing the flute, lived in his house. And often Virgil was captivated by the ambiguous charm of his own sex... Anyone who found this way of loving or this form of pleasure natural." Regarding his admired and intimate friendship with his contemporary (and future brother-in-law) Maurice Bardèche, as well as a figure in the French radical right, many gossiped, soon nicknaming them "Brasillecher and Bardache" (lèche in French means "lick," while bardache/bardassa refers to a young male prostitute).<ref>Alice Kaplan Processo e morte di un fascista. Il caso di Robert Brasillach, il Mulino 2003 pag.25</ref>
<blockquote>
''Children who will one day become twenty-year-old young men will learn with dark wonder about the existence of this exaltation, the youth camps, the glory of the past, the parades, the heroes fallen in combat, the friendship among young people of all nations... Communism, too, has its own greatness, equally exhilarating. It may even be that, in a thousand years, the two Revolutions of the twentieth century will be confused.''

'''Robert Brasillach'''<ref>cited in P. Serant Romanticismo fascista Sugar 1961, pag.253</ref>
</blockquote>

Apart from Brasillach, there are other French collaborationists who were homosexuals, such as [[Roger Peyrefitte]], author of the book “''Les Amitiés particulières''”, who faced accusations of collaboration over his diplomatic work for the Vichy regime.

==The post-war French New Right==

Like the subculture of French collaborationists in WW2-era France, pederasty and the appreciation of youth flourished alongside MAP advocacy in what would be termed as the ''Nouvelle droite'' (New Right).

<blockquote>
''The far-right press is hysterically hostile to “paedophiles”. They are in his eyes the enemy N. 1, the incarnation of the abhorred Left, and that makes me laugh because I have known, I know a very large number of “paedophiles” and they were, they are almost all Right or far-Right.''

'''[[Gabriel Matzneff]]'''<ref>[https://cnmnewz.com/2021/01/07/down-the-rabbit-hole-of-right-wing-pedophile-networks/ Down the rabbit hole of right wing pedophile networks]</ref>
</blockquote>
[[File:Joseph Douce variant.jpg|thumb|left|Doucé]]
'''[[Joseph Doucé]]''', a Flemish Belgian psychologist and (defrocked) Baptist minister, openly declared himself a homosexual in 1976, and founded the “''Centre of Christ the Liberator''” (Center du Christ liberateur) in Paris, a refuge for homosexuals, transgender people, sadomasochists, and pedophiles. He was a co-founder of [[ILGA]] (then called the “International Lesbian and Gay Association”), and in 1982 created a publishing firm called ''Lumière et Justice'' which would published under his direction. One such book was “''Paedophilia in question''” in which Doucé “develops scabrous theses and explains wanting to decriminalize paedophilia”.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://www.europe1.fr/societe/letrange-disparition-du-pasteur-douce-il-y-a-peu-de-chances-que-lon-connaisse-un-jour-la-verite-3838508</ref> Whilst Doucé himself is not explicitly known for being on the political Right, he managed the magazine subscriptions of the monthly ''Gaie France'' magazine created by far-right MAP advocate [https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] (see below). Doucé was connected to a British born priest named '''Nicolas Glencross''' who, since 1948, served a small parish in Nièvre, Saint-Léger-des-Vignes. While serving as a pastor to defend LGBT people, Glencross was also involved in nude photography of boys in places like India, Peru, and Sri Lanka, where he paid each child 50 francs.<ref>https://archive.ph/o/pIq4I/https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=https://www.humanite.fr/node/79900&prev=search&pto=au</ref> Glencross also enjoyed drawing children naked. Prior to his arrest in 1990 and the subsequent police raid at Nièvre, Glencross kept contact with French journalist and publisher Michel Caignet.

[https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Michel_Caignet?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp '''Michel Caignet'''] was a neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic and holocaust denier<ref>Nicolas Lebourg, « L'invention d'une doxa néo-fasciste : le rôle de l'avant-garde nationaliste-révolutionnaire. Idéologie négationniste, propagandes anti-américaine, anti-immigration, anti-juive »</ref> who, in 1986, founded the monthly ''Gaie France'' in which he proclaimed love for boys, with the aim of having a gay magazine with ideals closer to the French ''Nouvelle droite'' (“New Right”). '''Paul Raisant''' led ''Association of Friends of Gaie France'', which published a bulletin called ''Sparte, homosexualité et tradition'' in 1987. Nouvelle droite journalist '''Guillaume Faye''', writer '''Pierre Gripari''', militant atheist and gay rights activist '''Claude Courouve''', and far-right publisher '''Phillipe Randa''', son of novelist Peter Randa, were among its contributors,<ref>http://books.google.fr/books?id=5OuiSMd_HJsC&pg=PT121&dq=guillaume+faye+gaie+france&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=1rP0Up2hB6aO0AXw4oGYCw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=guillaume%20faye%20gaie%20france&f=false</ref> whilst Doucé himself managed the magazine’s subscriptions.<ref>https://www.cairn.info/revue-pardes-2005-1-page-49.htm?contenu=resume</ref> By ministerial decree dated 27 May 1992, for ''Gaie France'' the sale to minors was banned on charges of "inciting paedophilia"; it stopped publications the following year;<ref>https://archive.ph/o/OVLiJ/www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000527183</ref> in 1997 Caignet was tried for the dissemination of pornographic films with minors produced in Colombia three years prior, under the name “Toro Bravo” for distribution to his readers, getting sentenced to four years in prison.

==Present-day==
[[File:Michael Kuehnen.jpg|thumb|Michael Kuehnen]]
In 1991, at the age of 36, [[Wikipedia:Michael_K%C3%BChnen|'''Michael Kühnen''']], the undisputed leader of German neo-Nazism in the 1970s and 1980s, died. He had AIDS and was homosexual in orientation.<ref>Marco Fraquelli, Omosessuali di destra, Rubbettino, pag. 98-99.</ref> In 1986, he published an essay titled "''National Socialism and Homosexuality,''" referring to the homoerotic tradition within some male unions within the SA (''Sturmabteilung''). An "anti-fag rebellion" was begun by a group of his former followers; even his deputy, Thomas Brehl, was later declared a "fag" and marginalized from the neo-Nazi movement. To his former comrades, Kühnen urged his comrades to free themselves from the petty-bourgeois mentalities of Judeo-Christian origin. Instead, they should draw inspiration from the pagan teachings of nature's vitality, where homosexuality has always had its place and meaning.

Kühnen leadership remained unchallenged until 1990, when he proposed to the Iraqi ambassador to send volunteers to fight alongside Saddam Hussein's forces during the Gulf War. In 1986, while serving a prison sentence for extremism, he entrusted his friend and comrade '''Michel Caignet''' with the printing of the pamphlet. In it, Kühnen argued that homosexuality is a completely natural, hereditary predisposition, destined by nature for a small elite of men so that they can dedicate themselves to the service of community and cultural development without the burden and conditioning of reproductive sexuality. This perspective was not unprecedented in right-wing thought, as the early German gay rights activists of imperial Germany held similar views.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20141107202734/http://sororite-aryenne.com/michael-kuhnen-homosexualite-et-national-socialisme/; According to this pamphlet, unlike females, males have an indispensable cultural function, and their readiness for even extreme sacrifice is directed towards their peer group, not towards the family as women naturally do. In men, there is a surplus of sexual power that cannot be exhausted in the brief time spent with women. Therefore, this excess sexuality, when set free, should be channeled in favor of friends and in service to cultural society: the best and most useful solution is to use this libido additionally in relationships with other males, preferably with sexually mature adolescent boys. It further emphasizes that homosexuals play a pioneering role within society and the culture they support; being free from constraining ties with women and family, they can dedicate all their energies to embodying communal values. Anti-homosexual hostility developed within National Socialism due to the bourgeois mentality filled with moral prejudices of Judeo-Christian origin. Concludes Kühnen, masculine homosexuals ultimately prove to be the most suitable for leadership and indispensable for continuing the anti-bourgeois and anti-democratic struggle; unlike women, whose recognized role is predominantly private, homosexual males are assigned a prominent and socially significant public-cultural role.</ref>
[[File:Pim Fortuyn - May 4.jpg|thumb|left|Pim Fortuyn, pictured 2 days before his assassination]]
'''[[Wikipedia:Pim_Fortuyn|Pim Fortuyn]]''' (1948-2002), the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered on the 6th of May 2002, was a powerful advocate for pedophilia, standing to gain around 20% of the votes in the 2002 Dutch general election prior to his death. His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalization of drug laws, and his open homosexuality were well-known. Despite his approval of pedophilia not being a secret, Dutch journalists covering his election campaign ignored it. Ireen Van Engelen, an anti-pedophile campaigner in Holland, expressed frustration, stating, "I have been writing to journalists around the country for months as Fortuyn's popularity grew, asking them to challenge him on his views about pedophilia. But none of them dared. I also wrote to ministers, but none of them were interested. It's a disgrace." Fortuyn's own words shed light on his beliefs, as he wrote, "In the 1970s and 1980s, [[Edward_Brongersma|Brongersma]] slowly but surely gained ground...This enlightened point of view has meanwhile been abandoned... We are far removed from the understanding that Brongersma tried to foster, to our own detriment, for that matter." In his autobiographical work "''Babyboomers''", Fortuyn revealed early sexual experiences with adult males, justifying his stance on legality based on personal enjoyment of such experiences in his childhood when he was 5 years old.<ref>https://brongersma.info/Fortuyn_favoured_depraved</ref>

The American political science researcher and right-wing columnist, blogger, and online personality '''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hanania Richard Hanania]''', has been critical of the expansive and incorrect use of the term "pedophile," now routinely used in the context of anyone expressing attraction to a person under 18-years old, rather than a preferential attraction to people before puberty (generally aged 13 or younger).<ref>On the idea of 'Concept Creep', or the meaning of certain concepts such as "trauma" and "pedophilia" being expanded far beyond their original purview, see [https://www.jstor.org/stable/43865764 Frank Furedi on Concept Creep (2016)], and historian Vern Bullough's "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00aug15e_the_p_smear.htm the pedophile smear]".</ref> Over time, Hanania has become critical of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_presidency_of_Donald_Trump Trump Regime] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_Again MAGA Movement], expressly disavowing his past racist and eugenicist views prior to 2023. Having a prominent Twitter (or X) presence, and having moved politically in far-right circles and even been one of several hundred contributors to the writing of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Project 2025], Hanania's shifting politics make him a highly nuanced and unusual right-wing intellectual and figure.<ref>Hanania, Richard (August 7, 2023). [https://quillette.com/2023/08/07/my-journey-out-of-extremism/ "My Journey Out of Extremism"]. ''Quillette''.</ref> In relation to [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s, and the expansion of victim culture, Hanania has written thoughtful articles such as ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"'' (2013).<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/hitler-demi-moore-and-other-pedophiles ''Hitler, Demi Moore, and Other "Pedophiles"''] (Substack, 2013).</ref> Alongside the independent journalist [https://www.mtracey.net '''Michael Tracey'''], Hanania has been critical of the conspiratorial obsession and [[moral panic]] associated with [[Jeffrey Epstein]].<ref>Richard Hanania, [https://www.richardhanania.com/p/the-beautiful-ironies-of-epstein ''The Beautiful Ironies of Epstein Conspiracy Theories''] (Substack, 2025).</ref>

In an interview from a January 2016 episode of the podcast Drunken Peasants, '''[[Milo Yiannopoulos]]''' explained how sexual relationships between 13-year-old boys and adult men and women can "happen perfectly consensually", because some 13-year-olds are sexually and emotionally matured enough to consent to sex with adults. He used his own experience as an example, pointing out that he was mature enough to be capable of giving consent at a young age. He also correctly stated that "pedophilia is not a sexual attraction to somebody 13 years old, who is sexually mature" but rather that "pedophilia is attraction to children who have not reached puberty." Later in the interview, after his previous comments received some pushback from the hosts, he stated: "I think the age of consent law is probably about right, that is probably roughly the right age ... but there are certainly people who are capable of giving consent at a younger age, I certainly consider myself to be one of them."<ref>https://www.huffpost.com/entry/milo-yiannopoulos-on-pedophilia-and-this-arbitrary_b_58ab52a5e4b029c1d1f88d77</ref>
[[File:Milo Yiannopoulos pride.jpg|thumb|Milo Yiannopoulos]]
Yiannopoulos thereafter claimed that his statements were merely attempts to cope with his own victimhood, yet in 2019, he appeared to agree with [[Jordan Peterson]] in affirming the content of Rind et al, a study that challenges the assumption of universal trauma.<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20220815210303/https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/18gt</ref>

Following his defensive comments in 2017, Yiannopoulos was later criticized for attending Hollywood "boat parties" and "house parties" in which boys he described as "very young – very young" were engaged in pederasty but failing to report the abusers to the authorities or to identify them during an appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience. When asked about this by Ryan Lizza of New York magazine, Yiannopoulos said he "didn't check anyone's I.D.s." and that he "had no idea what the ages of any of those people at the parties were." He stated that when he said "very young" he was assuming that they were sixteen or seventeen. He reiterated that he doesn't "advocate for any illegal behavior" or excuse it. When, on 10 March, an additional video emerged in which he said on a 2015 episode of Gavin McInnes's show that minor-adult sex is "really not that big a deal. You can't let it ruin your life," Yiannopoulos was criticized for mocking [[child sexual abuse]] victims by calling them "whinging selfish brats" for [[Repressed_memory|"suddenly" remembering they were abused]] and "suddenly" deciding it was a problem 20 years after the event occurred. He also stated that a disproportionate number of pedophiles are homosexual.<ref>https://www.newyorker.com/news/ryan-lizza/how-alt-right-fellow-traveller-milo-yiannopoulos-cracked-up-the-right</ref><ref>https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/milo-yiannopoulos-described-sexual-abuse-victims-as-whinging</ref>

==Reasons for supporting the right among MAPs and AAMs==

Many advocates within the political right and centre-right argue for (limited or full) acceptance of MAPs (Minor-Attracted Persons), and/or voluntary sexual contact and relationships between minors and legal adults, citing various rationales. Some, interested more in logic, go on to view the concept of the arbitrary age of consent as illogical. Moreover, there's a prevalent sentiment against government interference in private matters, a stance particularly common among libertarians. Additionally, there's a reactionary attitude towards [[Feminism|feminism]], often viewed as hostile towards male heterosexuality and responsible for the current oppression of MAPs in the developed world as well as for advancing the modern age of consent. Some individuals also advocate for MAPs out of contrarianism or as a rejection of what they perceive as a modernist agenda that undermines traditional values, such as the preservation of the family as society’s basic unit. Unfortunately, many often limit their advocacy to the acceptance of hebephilia while trashing pedophilia, by using appeals to nature to point to their attraction being “natural” and thus “non-paraphilic”, unlike pedophilia, although such points seldom convince antis as to why they should carve out an exception for their hatred to teen-lovers. In a sense, anti-pedophilic hebephiles and ephebophiles share similarities with “ironic lolicons” in their bid for societal acceptance by striving to distance themselves from the “pedophilia” label.

Critics of the political Left's emphasis on egalitarianism and equality in all contexts argue that the leftist talking point of age-gap relationships being inherently abusive due to power imbalances derives from the same principles of radical individualism and absolute bodily autonomy used by pro-C MAPs in political discourse, with the critics pointing out that power imbalances are inherent in all personal relationships, thus questioning whether MAPs should engage in the dialectic of radical individualism and bodily autonomy instead of breaking said dialectic.

Within the community of male boylovers, certain aspects hold appeal. The neoclassical aesthetic, with its emphasis on beauty and harmony, resonates deeply. Moreover, there's a [[Erastoconservatism|fascination with the pedagogic tradition]] underpinning historical pederastic practices, where older mentors guided and educated younger individuals. Additionally, the concept of a mature man forming an intimate bond with a young boy, sharing experiences, and understanding of masculinity, serves as a cornerstone of attraction for some. These elements contribute to the multifaceted discourse surrounding rightist MAP advocacy within different forms of attraction.

===Old-school Republicans and Libertarians===

Just as boylovers can not be fit neatly into a singular [[Communism|radical leftist mould]], loved boys, or men with such experiences, have gone on to support a broad range of political philosophies. Gay historian and professor [[William Percy]] is one such example, as a lifelong Republican (prior to the current era). Despite being a supporter of the more conventionally conservative party (purportedly on the grounds of foreign policy), he expressed support for multiple sexually deviant and dissident groups throughout American society, leaving a legacy of constructive criticism toward what might be seen as reductive and essentializing tendencies in liberal sex dogma.<ref>[https://umassmedia.com/24238/uncategorized/professor-percy-on-why-i-am-a-republican/ The republicanism of William Percy]</ref> He is joined by libertarians such as Free Talk Live host Ian Bernard, who in 2010, defended his own underage relationships against a torrent of disdain from listeners.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH Ian Bernard, 2010]</ref>

==Editorial Commentary: Relevance of right-wing ideology, and discussion among MAPs==

Among political issues, right-wing ideology is a highly polarizing topic. MAPs are no exception from this rule, since their political opinions run the gamut of every part of the political spectrum, i.e. the general right-left divide is applicable to MAPs too. Some MAPs are non-partisan and instead see their MAP identity as the base for their beliefs.

Conversely, others see their [[MAP]] identity as secondary to their broader political convictions. Given the absence of a comprehensive critical theory addressing the needs and concerns of all segments of the minor attracted community, it's common for MAPs to integrate their political beliefs into their activism, hence many MAP rights activists draw upon various (and at times, contradictory) ideological frameworks, whether left or right-leaning, to advance the cause of MAP acceptance.

Among leftist and center-left MAPs, there exists a palpable aversion to anything associated with the political right, driven by historical antecedents and contemporary ideological clashes. This sentiment stems partly from a rejection of fascism and religion, and a commitment to countercultural movements (such as the sexual freedom and gay rights movements) that emerged in the post-war era, from which 1st-wave [[MAP Movement|MAP activism]] first emerges. Additionally, the influence of identitarian and secular-liberal politics among contemporary leftist movements has further entrenched this animosity towards right-wing ideologies. Left-leaning MAPs sometimes align themselves with broader leftist movements, such as sexual liberation, LGBTQ+ and secular liberalism, viewing them as allies in the fight for societal acceptance, individual autonomy and the liberation of MAPs as the continuation of a sexual, or identity-revolution.

In other cases, Left and Anarchist-leaning MAPs show open hostility towards the LGBTQ+ project, liberal values and some aspects of identity-based politics, characterizing them as reactionary.

MAPs who reject broader left-wing and liberal activism, may feel marginalized within the movements and perceive them as ineffective or even detrimental to their cause. Heterosexual girl-lovers, for instance, may view mainstream [[Feminism|feminism]] as obstructing the acceptance of their attractions and see little incentive to align with movements that display outright hostility to them and fail to address their concerns. Some MAPs, particularly those influenced by internet culture and "chan" imageboard communities, reject leftist politics altogether, viewing them as dogmatic and out of touch with reality. Right-leaning MAPs point to a variety of factors to justify their disassociation from leftist circles. They highlight increasing opposition to [[Queer|queer ideologies in Western societies]] and alleged failures of 1st-wave MAP activists in addressing man-girl love preceding their downfall in the 1990s. Secularization of anti-CSA dogma into a secular political "theology" in its own right throughout the Anglosphere and much of continental Europe is also a concern, as is the left’s realpolitik in perpetuating its own brand of [[pedophobia]]. Additionally, they perceive the mainstream left and [[Rainbow_Revisionism|LGBTQ+ lobby as hostile towards age-gap intimate relationships]], particularly heterosexual ones where the younger partner is female. They may argue that aligning with the left is counterproductive to their goals, and question if MAP rights activism is even safe restricting itself solely to left-radical politics.

Amidst this complex landscape of political ideologies, MAPs face the challenge of adapting to a rapidly changing political climate while striving for social acceptance and legal recognition. Recognizing the limitations of rigid ideological adherence, MAP rights activists must draw from the successes of diverse social movements throughout history and remain open to evolving strategies in pursuit of their goals. Only through such adaptability and resilience can the MAP rights movement hope to effect meaningful change in an imperfect world.

==See also==

[[Republicans are the real pedophiles]]

==External links==

*[https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/media-matters-groomers-child-predators-conservative-media-rcna89121 There’s a long, disgusting history of right-wingers defending child predators]

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: French]][[Category:History & Events: Dutch]][[Category:History & Events: Danish]][[Category:History & Events: Australian]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 2000s]][[Category:History & Events: 2010s]][[Category:History & Events: 2020s]]

Testimony: Expressed childhood sexuality

2026-08-26T18:29:32Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}
There are numerous recorded examples of children and minors engaging in sexual behaviors among themselves. This accounts for the vast bulk of sexual interactions involving youth. Teenage boys are the [[Research: Who offends and how often?|most at-risk group]] for prosecution of all sexual contact involving minors, even more so than adult men.

*'''Bob Basker''' (1918-2001), discussed in Keith Vacha, ''Quiet Fire: Memoirs of Older Gay Men'', edited by Cassie Damewood (Trumansburg, New York: The Crossing Press, 1985). An early black civil rights/desegregation and [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|homophile activist]], as discussed in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Male_with_Minor_Male|male-male testimonies]], Bob started cruising as an adolescent. He also described to the author, how he started masturbating in grade school after a surprising event... In his words, when his class teacher left the room, a classroom monitor "stuck his head in the door and said, "It's okay, fellas." Bob continues:
*:"All of a sudden, about half a dozen guys in the classroom [...] took their cocks out and started jerking off. In public! [...] Clay said to me, "Hey, why don't you try it?" and I said "I would never try such a thing." Well, that night, at home in the bathroom with no lubrication, I remember looking down at my little penis with no hair around it [...] I don't know how long I jerked off, I guess until I had the feeling of climax. [...] I started masturbating from then on." (p. 46).

*'''Nine-year-old girl, quoted in: Martin, Lorna and Card, Nell. "[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1669967,00.html The secret love life of Laura-Anne, aged 9¾]", ''The Guardian'', December 18 2005.'''
*:"Laura-Anne Hanrahan [nine years old] is sitting on her doorstep, playing with a pumpkin as she describes how she felt when her boyfriend kissed her. 'Tingly,' she says, dreamily. 'He used to come over and cuddle me and put his hands up my top. It used to feel cosy. I feel desperate to go up to him and say "Ben, why don't we kiss any more". It hurts so much that we don't kiss that I want to rip my heart out and throw it away.'"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Angelina-Jolie-Was-A-Kindergarten-Sex-Kitten-3855.html Angelina Jolie] (actress), quoted in: "Angelina Jolie Was A Kindergarten Sex Kitten", ''World Entertainment News Network'', April 18 2007.'''
*:"I was a member of a group called the Kissy Girls. I was very sexual in kindergarten. "I created a game where I would kiss the boys and give them cooties (children's fictional disease). Then we would make out and we would take our clothes off."

*'''[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987).'''
*:"I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|lesbian]], but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it."

*'''Anonymous boy, 14'''
*:"My brother (three years older) initiated some 'exploration' (I was around 10 years old at the time) - showing our penises, measuring them, eventually leading to me licking his penis. This eventually led to frequent mutual masturbation, oral sex, and an attempt at anal sex, with me on bottom (we used shampoo for lube - ouch). There was a period where my brother lost interest in such activities, but I continued craving sex with him. I eventually got more - he would let me suck him off, and we eventually did anal once, with me on top this time. After a few minutes he wasn't interested anymore and I finished him off by mouth. I was 14 at the time. The frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off after that, and it has been several months since anything happened (I still crave cock though)."

*'''[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/441610.htm AlbertRoss on GirlChat], May 21 2008'''
*:Although his real name is probably not known, he has previously outed himself on video. "my older male friend was about four or five years ahead of me, almost fourteen to my nine, at the time we met. two of the best years of my life, in so many ways, and not just because he had a swimming pool in his front yard, nor because his dad was well off, and took us all out to dinner a lot. i learned most of what i know about sex from him. normal heterosexual sex, that is - his interest was in me, mine was about girls, he had the details i wanted, and i hadn't yet been tainted by homophobia. what they call a win/win situation, i guess. i discovered the phobia at eleven, told him i couldn't see him any more, and that was it. took me decades to get over the sense of having done something terribly wrong, and quite a few more to restore my memories to what i now remember - that overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder. in short - the only harm i experienced was that imposed on me by outside prejudices. i'm exclusively hetero, and always have been, and today i feel diminished by that.."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html Mother of two boys], from: "Molested: A mother discovers that the legal system's nightmarish 'cure' for child sexual abuse can be worse than the disease", ''Salon'', February 28 1997.'''
*:As well as being a very reliable and articulate source for the younger brother's feelings about an affectionate, family sex relationship, there are many points raised about the persecution of young people in a sex-negative welfare state. "Between my two sons, there was kissing, there was touching, there was oral contact ("sodomy"). There was a lot of looking. There was no penetration, no force, no threats. They are several years apart in age and the contacts occurred over several weeks. My youngest son confessed in tears that he'd enjoyed it, and was very sorry he'd gotten his brother in so much trouble." (Parts [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303112703/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested970228.html 1], [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303150342/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested2970228.html 2] and [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html 3] | [http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/mother.htm Combined] )

*'''"[http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Boys_family_fights_sex_charges/UPI-54821228781406/ Boy's family fights sex charges]", ''United Press Internationa'', December 8 2008.'''
*:"Several teenage girls in Mequon, Wis., say they object to a classmate being criminally prosecuted for allegedly touching them inappropriately. The girls, in court affidavits, said they did not feel degraded by the boy, now 14, and don't want to see him prosecuted for five counts of fourth-degree sexual assault, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday. [...] Prosecutors allege the boy several times in 2007 and in June 2008, when he was 13, grabbed the girls' buttocks or their breasts, licked a girl's neck and tickled a girl in the stomach."

*'''[http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/04/chris-brown-rihanna-interview-x Chris Brown], quoted in: Aitkenhead, Decca. "Chris Brown: 'It was the biggest wake-up call'", ''The Guardian'', October 4 2013.'''
*:He lost his virginity when he was eight years old, to a local girl who was 14 or 15. Seriously? "Yeah, really. Uh-huh." He grins and chuckles. "It's different in the country." Brown grew up with a great gang of boy cousins, and they watched so much porn that he was raring to go. "By that point, we were already kind of like hot to trot, you know what I'm saying? Like, girls, we weren't afraid to talk to them; I wasn't afraid. So, at eight, being able to do it, it kind of preps you for the long run, so you can be a beast at it. You can be the best at it."

*'''Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]''.'''

:*"My neighborhood environment has always been quite permissive which enabled me (a boy) the time and freedom to become the finest five year old doctor in my neighborhood. I clearly remember associating my penile erections with examination of the next door girl's anatomy."

:*"I (a girl) encountered a sexual experience that was confusing at kindergarten age.... Some afternoons we would meet and lock ourselves in a bedroom and take our pants off. We took turns lying on the bed and put pennies, marbles, etc. between our labia. The other two liked to pretend they were boys and used a pencil for a penis. As the ritual became old hat, it passed out of existence. I enjoyed the sexual manipulation, for it was stimulating."

:*"The girl and I were age six. I suggested playing doctor. We took off our clothes and then she lay down on her stomach so I could give her a "shot." [...] She messed around a little bit until I began to get what was for me my first memorable erection. [...] She started to touch it, pulled back quickly (still giggling), then touched it and finally put her hand on it. At that time I wasn't exactly prepared for the sensations I received so I suggested that maybe she shouldn't do that any more. I seem to remember a strange feeling when looking at her genitals. I couldn't figure out what they were for but while looking, I felt a pleasurable sensation in my own genitals, and I'm sure that the thought of placing mine near hers passed through my mind but I dismissed it for lack of time (her mother would be coming soon)."

:*"When I [a girl] was about seven years old, my eleven year old neighbor girl friend and I would get together and play games which involved fondling and exploring each other's body.... A game that we played was referred to as "upper" and "lower" and this would include choosing one of the words and the other person would stimulate that portion of the body for about 10-15 minutes. This we did anywhere since it did not involve taking off clothes, just placing the hand inside the clothing. By sexual contacts I had a release to strange feelings inside me and got much physical satisfaction when arms were holding me."

:*"I (age 12) was invited to an all boy slumber party at one of my friend's homes.... I laid down next to Jim, and we talked for a long time and I remember scratching his back and then I remember him asking if I would itch his "cock." I guess it was more curiosity at his big organ than anything that led me to comply and I did. [...] Anyway, I was stimulating him and he all of a sudden insisted that I stop. I didn't know why at the time, but I did what he said. He then suggested that he return the favor. Well, he began to manually stimulate me, and the sensation was so great at orgasm I honestly remember that I made him stop for a second. Then I asked him to start again and the sensation came back and I made him stop again. I was too young to ejaculate anything, but it sure felt good. We repeated the cycle at least ten times before we quit."

:*My second homosexual experience was one with my older cousin. I think I was in about fifth grade when this happened, and he must have been in about eighth grade of junior high school. The contact involved lying down on the couch and unzipping each other's pants and fondling, caressing, and masturbating each other's genitals. I remember he felt a special sensation when I would reach way around his scrotum and fondle his testes. We would take turns stimulating each other and then we would fondle each other simultaneously. I also received great pleasure from this homosexual contact."

*'''[http://anu.nfshost.com/?p=92 Steve Diamond on ATC blog (defunct)]'''
*:"I have naturally craved sex...sexual touch, through all stages of my conscious life. I do not remember any phase during my childhood, when I was without sexual attraction and arousal. It was very natural, and spontaneous. I never disliked it, though I learned to hide it from others. [...] But I have, honestly, known several children (when I was a boy), who were having sex...semi-regular, and prior to puberty. Nobody complained...Everybody liked it...Everybody made the choice to be there and do that."

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]] [[Category:Testimony: Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]

Testimony: Expressed childhood sexuality

2026-08-26T18:18:09Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}
There are numerous recorded examples of children and minors engaging in sexual behaviors among themselves. This accounts for the vast bulk of sexual interactions involving youth. Teenage boys are the [[Research: Who offends and how often?|most at-risk group]] for prosecution of all sexual contact involving minors, even more so than adult men.

*'''Nine-year-old girl, quoted in: Martin, Lorna and Card, Nell. "[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1669967,00.html The secret love life of Laura-Anne, aged 9¾]", ''The Guardian'', December 18 2005.'''
*:"Laura-Anne Hanrahan [nine years old] is sitting on her doorstep, playing with a pumpkin as she describes how she felt when her boyfriend kissed her. 'Tingly,' she says, dreamily. 'He used to come over and cuddle me and put his hands up my top. It used to feel cosy. I feel desperate to go up to him and say "Ben, why don't we kiss any more". It hurts so much that we don't kiss that I want to rip my heart out and throw it away.'"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Angelina-Jolie-Was-A-Kindergarten-Sex-Kitten-3855.html Angelina Jolie] (actress), quoted in: "Angelina Jolie Was A Kindergarten Sex Kitten", ''World Entertainment News Network'', April 18 2007.'''
*:"I was a member of a group called the Kissy Girls. I was very sexual in kindergarten. "I created a game where I would kiss the boys and give them cooties (children's fictional disease). Then we would make out and we would take our clothes off."

*'''[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987).'''
*:"I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|lesbian]], but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it."

*'''Anonymous boy, 14'''
*:"My brother (three years older) initiated some 'exploration' (I was around 10 years old at the time) - showing our penises, measuring them, eventually leading to me licking his penis. This eventually led to frequent mutual masturbation, oral sex, and an attempt at anal sex, with me on bottom (we used shampoo for lube - ouch). There was a period where my brother lost interest in such activities, but I continued craving sex with him. I eventually got more - he would let me suck him off, and we eventually did anal once, with me on top this time. After a few minutes he wasn't interested anymore and I finished him off by mouth. I was 14 at the time. The frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off after that, and it has been several months since anything happened (I still crave cock though)."

*'''[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/441610.htm AlbertRoss on GirlChat], May 21 2008'''
*:Although his real name is probably not known, he has previously outed himself on video. "my older male friend was about four or five years ahead of me, almost fourteen to my nine, at the time we met. two of the best years of my life, in so many ways, and not just because he had a swimming pool in his front yard, nor because his dad was well off, and took us all out to dinner a lot. i learned most of what i know about sex from him. normal heterosexual sex, that is - his interest was in me, mine was about girls, he had the details i wanted, and i hadn't yet been tainted by homophobia. what they call a win/win situation, i guess. i discovered the phobia at eleven, told him i couldn't see him any more, and that was it. took me decades to get over the sense of having done something terribly wrong, and quite a few more to restore my memories to what i now remember - that overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder. in short - the only harm i experienced was that imposed on me by outside prejudices. i'm exclusively hetero, and always have been, and today i feel diminished by that.."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html Mother of two boys], from: "Molested: A mother discovers that the legal system's nightmarish 'cure' for child sexual abuse can be worse than the disease", ''Salon'', February 28 1997.'''
*:As well as being a very reliable and articulate source for the younger brother's feelings about an affectionate, family sex relationship, there are many points raised about the persecution of young people in a sex-negative welfare state. "Between my two sons, there was kissing, there was touching, there was oral contact ("sodomy"). There was a lot of looking. There was no penetration, no force, no threats. They are several years apart in age and the contacts occurred over several weeks. My youngest son confessed in tears that he'd enjoyed it, and was very sorry he'd gotten his brother in so much trouble." (Parts [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303112703/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested970228.html 1], [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303150342/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested2970228.html 2] and [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html 3] | [http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/mother.htm Combined] )

*'''"[http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Boys_family_fights_sex_charges/UPI-54821228781406/ Boy's family fights sex charges]", ''United Press Internationa'', December 8 2008.'''
*:"Several teenage girls in Mequon, Wis., say they object to a classmate being criminally prosecuted for allegedly touching them inappropriately. The girls, in court affidavits, said they did not feel degraded by the boy, now 14, and don't want to see him prosecuted for five counts of fourth-degree sexual assault, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday. [...] Prosecutors allege the boy several times in 2007 and in June 2008, when he was 13, grabbed the girls' buttocks or their breasts, licked a girl's neck and tickled a girl in the stomach."

*'''[http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/04/chris-brown-rihanna-interview-x Chris Brown], quoted in: Aitkenhead, Decca. "Chris Brown: 'It was the biggest wake-up call'", ''The Guardian'', October 4 2013.'''
*:He lost his virginity when he was eight years old, to a local girl who was 14 or 15. Seriously? "Yeah, really. Uh-huh." He grins and chuckles. "It's different in the country." Brown grew up with a great gang of boy cousins, and they watched so much porn that he was raring to go. "By that point, we were already kind of like hot to trot, you know what I'm saying? Like, girls, we weren't afraid to talk to them; I wasn't afraid. So, at eight, being able to do it, it kind of preps you for the long run, so you can be a beast at it. You can be the best at it."

*'''Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]''.'''

:*"My neighborhood environment has always been quite permissive which enabled me (a boy) the time and freedom to become the finest five year old doctor in my neighborhood. I clearly remember associating my penile erections with examination of the next door girl's anatomy."

:*"I (a girl) encountered a sexual experience that was confusing at kindergarten age.... Some afternoons we would meet and lock ourselves in a bedroom and take our pants off. We took turns lying on the bed and put pennies, marbles, etc. between our labia. The other two liked to pretend they were boys and used a pencil for a penis. As the ritual became old hat, it passed out of existence. I enjoyed the sexual manipulation, for it was stimulating."

:*"The girl and I were age six. I suggested playing doctor. We took off our clothes and then she lay down on her stomach so I could give her a "shot." [...] She messed around a little bit until I began to get what was for me my first memorable erection. [...] She started to touch it, pulled back quickly (still giggling), then touched it and finally put her hand on it. At that time I wasn't exactly prepared for the sensations I received so I suggested that maybe she shouldn't do that any more. I seem to remember a strange feeling when looking at her genitals. I couldn't figure out what they were for but while looking, I felt a pleasurable sensation in my own genitals, and I'm sure that the thought of placing mine near hers passed through my mind but I dismissed it for lack of time (her mother would be coming soon)."

:*"When I [a girl] was about seven years old, my eleven year old neighbor girl friend and I would get together and play games which involved fondling and exploring each other's body.... A game that we played was referred to as "upper" and "lower" and this would include choosing one of the words and the other person would stimulate that portion of the body for about 10-15 minutes. This we did anywhere since it did not involve taking off clothes, just placing the hand inside the clothing. By sexual contacts I had a release to strange feelings inside me and got much physical satisfaction when arms were holding me."

:*"I (age 12) was invited to an all boy slumber party at one of my friend's homes.... I laid down next to Jim, and we talked for a long time and I remember scratching his back and then I remember him asking if I would itch his "cock." I guess it was more curiosity at his big organ than anything that led me to comply and I did. [...] Anyway, I was stimulating him and he all of a sudden insisted that I stop. I didn't know why at the time, but I did what he said. He then suggested that he return the favor. Well, he began to manually stimulate me, and the sensation was so great at orgasm I honestly remember that I made him stop for a second. Then I asked him to start again and the sensation came back and I made him stop again. I was too young to ejaculate anything, but it sure felt good. We repeated the cycle at least ten times before we quit."

:*My second homosexual experience was one with my older cousin. I think I was in about fifth grade when this happened, and he must have been in about eighth grade of junior high school. The contact involved lying down on the couch and unzipping each other's pants and fondling, caressing, and masturbating each other's genitals. I remember he felt a special sensation when I would reach way around his scrotum and fondle his testes. We would take turns stimulating each other and then we would fondle each other simultaneously. I also received great pleasure from this homosexual contact."

*'''[http://anu.nfshost.com/?p=92 Steve Diamond on ATC blog (defunct)]'''
*:"I have naturally craved sex...sexual touch, through all stages of my conscious life. I do not remember any phase during my childhood, when I was without sexual attraction and arousal. It was very natural, and spontaneous. I never disliked it, though I learned to hide it from others. [...] But I have, honestly, known several children (when I was a boy), who were having sex...semi-regular, and prior to puberty. Nobody complained...Everybody liked it...Everybody made the choice to be there and do that."

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]] [[Category:Testimony: Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]

Testimony: Adult Male with Minor Male

2026-08-26T18:17:12Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}

*The late '''Scotty Bowers''', famously known "Hollywood's Pimp", was in fact a highly complex individual - having experienced real suffering as a serviceman. He also had a considerable influence on the sexual revolution after he returned, and was a key contact of [[Alfred Kinsey]]. His sexual experiences as a hustler in his youth, however, he does not regret.
::"I had a very nice childhood; a good childhood. The neighbour, who had two kids - his wife was a sweetheart and he was too, I couldn't think of anything but nice things to say about them [...] just because he wanted to cuddle me/hold me/jack me [off], I don't see anything wrong with that [...] abused? absolutely not; this is bullshit, man! There's no such thing as someone ruining your life when they suck your cock [...] even as a little kid, I saw nothing wrong with that [...] we were unloading the trailer and [the priest], I could tell by the look in his eye that he wanted me [...] then he proceeded to fix me up with friends, and through him, I would meet other priests and go to their church. Within weeks, I had seen approximately 25-30 priests. They paid me off in change out of the collection box (laughter) [...] everybody knew me downtown [as he describes his side hustles] I was doing my little thing all by myself. [...] I did what I did because I knew what I was doing and I wanted to do it"

*'''[https://news.yahoo.com/george-takei-pedophilia-tape-posted-195359153.html George Takei]''' at age 13 or 14 (accounts vary) with a 19 year old.
::Takei is well known for positively recalling this early experience on a number of occasions. See, for example, [https://fstube.net/w/k4Q6ydNJBkbPAqGACEQszm this] video.

*'''[https://web.archive.org/web/20221225024442/https://makinggayhistory.com/podcast/craig-rodwell/ Craig Rodwell] by Eric Marcus, "Making Gay History", November 2022 (Recorded 1989)'''.
::Craig Rodwell was one of the most consequential gay activists of the 20th century. Rodwell is known for participating in the Stonewall riots, his work in the Mattachine Society, founding the [[Oscar Wilde]] Memorial Bookshop, proposing the first annual pride march, and dating Harvey Milk in the early 1960s.
::From 13 to 14 years old, Rodwell had sex with “hundreds of men” in Chicago. He would go cruising outside of gay bars to meet these men. Speaking of the experience, he said “This is what I lived for, literally. And that’s all I thought about all day long, just so I could get downtown and go cruising. Uh, it was, oh, it was just, I get thrilled now even thinking about it, those, those, those times. It had a great sense of freedom about it and adventure and, oh, I met all kinds of guys—Air Force guys, cops, you name it. I met all kinds of guys during high school”. When Rodwell was 14, he was charged and convicted by the Chicago police for the crime of juvenile delinquency when he was caught walking home after having sex with a man in his thirties. He was ultimately sentenced to two years of probation. His lover was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment for "crimes against nature".

*'''[http://salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2002/07/22/coming_of_age/ Minor report] by David Tuller in Salon.com, July 22, 2002.'''
**An aircraft maintenance worker describes his first experience at thirteen with a man of about 30 who had hired him to do yard work. After inviting him inside and showing him pictures of men wrestling, the man “started rubbing my crotch, and I was both nervous and really excited by it.” He went on to seek out other significantly older men. “I never felt used. I really wanted it, and except for the first time I always felt like the aggressor.”
**Noted gay novelist [[Edmund White]] talks about picking up men at Chicago beaches and public restrooms from the age of 13 or 14. “I was very oversexed, absolutely driven wild by desire. ... The first one was a handsome architect, who actually had children older than me. I was absolutely fascinated by him, and I seduced him. I followed him to his car, walked right up to him and started talking to him. My mother was away and I said, ‘Come back to my apartment.’ And it was terrific.”
** In an essay about sex between adolescents and adults, David Tuller relates his own desire as a 15-year-old "tormented homosexual wannabe." Upon seeing the movie Summer of '42, in which a young widow "pulls Hermie into her arms and, in her grief, into her bed," he says, "I cried while I watched, ... because I so yearned for the tender moments that Hermie found."
**A gay health care professional in his 50s discusses how the relationship he pursued with a family friend in his early 20s helped him learn at the age of fifteen that men could care for each other. "It was clear that it certainly felt good to both of us. ... In some way it was a real lifesaver, because it made me feel that love and affection and closeness and sex would be possible in my life. ... when we were together, it was like a little oasis where we could be ourselves."
** A businessman in Denver recounts his two-year relationship, from age fifteen, with his 29-year-old boss at the restaurant where he worked. "It was frightening and invigorating and I felt clumsy and awkward. But he was playful and fun and very gentle. I never felt coerced. As foreign as it was to me I was very open to it. Afterwards, I felt good, like I'd experienced something I'd wanted to for a long time." Speaking of how it affected his life at the time, he says, "I wasn't an awkward, out-of-place kid anymore. I felt appreciated for being gay, instead of being an outcast and made fun of. Suddenly I had this new self-confidence. I didn't have to hate myself for being gay."

*'''R. Andrew Nilsen. (1992). Intergenerational Intimacy, in Empathy, Volume 3, Number 1, pp. 95-97.'''<ref>[[:File:Intergenerational Intimacy by Andrew Nilsen.pdf|Nilsen: Intergenerational Intimacy (internal link)]]</ref>
:*Reporting on interviews conducted by the author, Nilsen wrote:
::"A boy of 8 had a sexual relationship with an adult man of 42. This boy said, "He treats me great; I like it a lot. He's nicer to me than my own father." (p. 95).
:*Interview with Ramón, age 8: "I have only had sex with a guy this year. He's 35 and is my Sunday School Teacher. He likes for me to be in his house and we go to bed a lot. He teaches me about sex and that makes me glad because then I know he likes it and I know what to do..." (p. 96).
:*A 14-year old boy responds: "My male friend is a real man. My daddy, a cop, plays at being a man but a real man doesn't beat his kid. My man friend let's me have sex with him whenever I want and sex with my girlfriend when I want that." (p. 95).
:*"At a New York City apartment some years ago I observed and interviewed a 17-year old boy French kissing and fellating his 37-year old lover. When I asked why he was doing that he just said "Because I want to." Simple question and simple answer." (p. 96).

*'''Hardi in [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-018-9506-6 Mulya (2018) - Contesting the Dominant Discourse of Child Sexual Abuse: Sexual Subjects, Agency, and Ethics]
*:"It all started when I was 5 years old. I already experienced sexual harrassment, but I just enjoyed it. At that time my mom worked in a rural town. One day I was invited by a young guy in that neighbourhood. He asked me to hold his penis. I did what he said till his fluid came out. I didn’t know what fluid it was, but I just enjoyed it. This happened repeatedly, including my friends at the same age with me asked me to do that too.Then my family moved to another city. There, I experienced the same thing. Young men there invited me to do the same, and I just enjoyed it. I was also asked to oral his penis and I did it. I did all those things but I have not yet experienced the peak. Until one day I also can feel how pleasurable it was when that white fuid came out. My intermediate and high schools were the time when I really enjoyed such activities. Almost every day I masturbated and did same-sex activities like that. Thanks to God after high school, uni, and until now I am not bound to those sins like I was. It’s all because of my struggles with God so that I can leave all those sinful deeds. [...] As far as I remember, I was playing around the neighbourhood, then a young guy invited me, and I don’t know why, I just followed him. At that time I was only 5 years old, if I’m not mistaken. My feeling now? Just ordinary. I remember at that time I just enjoyed it without knowing what I was doing. I never hated those guys. I don’t know where they are now, and I don’t care. I totally forget it".

*'''Keith Vacha, ''Quiet Fire: Memoirs of Older Gay Men'', edited by Cassie Damewood (Trumansburg, New York: The Crossing Press, 1985).'''
*:[Ed] From 1978-1984, gay writer Keith Vacha conducted interviews with gay-identifying men, mostly in California and Arizona, who were at least 55 years old. Taken from over 100 taped interviews of 2-10 hours, ''Quiet Fire'' presents 17 stories of gay men from the pre-[[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|stonewall]] generation. In his summary, Vacha claims to have mixed real names and pseudonyms, and notes "a high degree of inter-generational relationships among the men I met" (p. 217).

::Of particular interest to this article is '''Bob Basker''' (Born September 30, 1918 in East Harlem, New York City. Died April 6, 2001) - Interviewed by Keith Vacha at age 65. The youngest of 5 sons, Basker participated in early black civil rights/desegregation and homophile activism. Basker hired a black man and refused to fire him after his superior insisted black workers went against company policy, costing him his job. With his then wife Greta, Basker "became the nominee purchasers to obtain a home for a black couple in Skokie (Illinois), Bob and Mary Smythe" (p. 54). He explains: "All hell broke loose. Our house was firebombed, we had unending obscene phone calls and death threats, and all our bank loans were cancelled" (Ibid). Basker turned to gay issues, and in 1965 became founding president of "Mattachine Midwest," the first Mattachine Society in Chicago. He also "helped to start the [Miami] Gay Activist Alliance in 1971" (p. 55) and became the Executive Director of Florida's Dade County Coalition for the Humanistic Rights of Gays (p. 56). He said the following about his young sex-life:

::"When I began selling newspapers at night, between the ages of eleven and fifteen, I was exposed to a lot of sex in [subway station] tearooms. [...] You'd meet people having sex with each other, not always, but often all through the night. Sometimes you'd walk in and they were in the midst of having some kind of sex and they'd look up and say, "Oh, it's only a kid," and go right back to whatever they were doing. I was serviced regularly and once in a while I would do the servicing. I met some really nice people who were afraid of being involved with a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen-year-old kid but I did manage to go home with some of them. I was generally the aggressor" (p. 46).

::"I got to learn something about classical music, ballet, and opera. I am the only "cultured" one in the family [...] and I think it's all because of my association with gay life, when these older men took me home with them. [...] I used to cruise the back of the Metropolitan Opera constantly [...] in order to meet these men and go home with them. It was never a question of me taking money. It was just a matter of going to a nice man's home" (pp. 46-47).

::"I used to hang around the parks in New York City [...] a lot of cruising. Sometimes in the movies I'd be picked up by older men, even before I was old enough to have climaxes, and we'd go somewhere and I'd jerk them off. I was fascinated watching them have a climax before I could have one. I'd look at that stuff and wonder, "When is it gonna happen to me?" (p. 47).

::"I had sex with different people three to four times a week, starting at the age of fourteen. [...] [T]hree times a week, fifty weeks a year, that's at least a hundred and fifty partners. Over a period of twenty years, three thousand partners. That creates a tremendous amount of sophisticated sex" (p. 48).

::'''Al Hoskins''' - Small business owner in Berkeley, California, was interviewed in his 60s:

::"When I was eleven I went over to the bus depot to the men's room. So many men [...] There was a guy there at the other end of the place who was sort of masturbating. I immediately got an erection which prompted him to walk over to me and start feeling me. Well, that of course thrilled me to no end. [...] My mother thought he was the nicest person. I used to visit him every time I went to the old Hippodrome Theatre." (p. 145).

* '''Jonathan Dollimore''' (born 1948) - Relationship from ages 14-15 with Tony, an adult family friend who was having sex with both him and his mother around the same time. British academic who pioneered [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0091.xml cultural materialism] as a practice for intepreting texts. Co-founder of the ''Centre for the Study of Sexual Dissidence'' at the University of Sussex, Dollimore's work has been claimed to be of "preeminent importance to English studies for the last forty years" and to have "revolutionized literary studies by combining a dedication to close textual analysis with an examination of the social and political contexts within which texts are produced and received" (Marlow, [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0089.xml 2020]). Influential for critical gender studies and later queer theory, his writing featured in ''The Lesbian and Gay Studies Reader'' ([https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Lesbian_and_Gay_Studies_Reader.html?id=OmLrFXy3UoQC&redir_esc=y 1993]) alongside [[Gayle Rubin]], David Halperin, and other pioneering queer academics who have discussed intergenerational sexuality.

::''[http://library.lol/main/2165BB190230E4500117E36A873F72E2 '''Desire: A Memoir''']'' '''(1st edition, 2017: Bloomsbury Academic Press), pp. 1-5.'''

::"Tony was an interesting man, ex-RAF, nomadic, far more knowledgeable than any other adult I’d encountered, including all of my school teachers, and also seemingly genuinely interested in teaching me things – as well as having sex with me. It was under his influence that I started to read thoughtfully for the first time. He introduced me to writers like Kipling, Somerset Maugham, Graham Greene, Thomas Hardy and T. S. Eliot.

::The cultural influence that Tony exerted on me would now be construed as ‘grooming’; and maybe it was, but it was also what made me want to learn to write. I did experience it as a desire, perhaps because it was so closely related to my sexual encounters with him, which weren’t demanding or complicated, and mainly consisted in him sympathetically helping me to orgasm. I liked that well enough to sometimes lie awake at night when he was staying with us, hoping he might come to my room to do it again."

::"I didn't feel personally betrayed by Tony's attempted seduction of my mother; nor have I ever felt damaged by the sex he and I had together. Of course, I realized that, at the very least, he was betraying my parent's trust in having sex with me, but, at the same time, that, too, was attractive to this adolescent." (pp. 1-2, 2017, 1st edn).

::[Newgon: The 2nd edition to this book ([https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Desire/b7EjEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0 2021]) was endorsed by famous gay author [[Edmund White]], who has spoken positively of his own age-gap sex during youth. In this edition, Dollimore thinks back to his earliest sensual/sexual experience at "3 or 4 years old," concluding:

::"I am still unsure whether Freudians are right in their insistence on the sexuality of the child, but I do know that the assumed innocence of the child is usually in the eye of the adult beholder" (p. 5, 2021).]

*'''[[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [http://library.lol/main/4FB01D8582CB462BF79D0CF28A43BF00 Unspeakable: A Life Beyond Sexual Morality] (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2020).'''
::Eric Wolton - London sex worker picked up by once-famous gay/pederast (pan-sexual) author [[Norman Douglas]] at the age of 12, whose parents granted permission for him to travel with Douglas for a walking tour of Italy. With Wolton recalling the experience positively, Cleves writes:

<blockquote>
A decade after they first met, [...] Wolton refused to disavow his childhood sexual relationship with Douglas, writing:
<blockquote>
''They were happy times [...] I have no evil thoughts about them although I am different today than I was then. You were my tin god and even now you are. I do really love you [...] I want you to understand Doug that you are more to me than ever you were. The difference is now that I am old enough to realise it.''
</blockquote>
As an adult, Wolton pursued sexual encounters with women. He was ‘different’ than he had been as a boy, but he felt positively about his youthful sexual encounters with Douglas nonetheless [...] neither the letters nor the actions of Douglas’s long-term child sexual partners indicate that they regarded their relationships with him through the framework of trauma (p. 54)
</blockquote>

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-072.htm Letter from John] in HFP Mailbag and [http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/13023005/ Sexual Abuse from a Victim] by John Tate, December 7, 2004.'''
*:A 17-year-old reports on the anguish in his life stemming from sexual activity with his grandfather from age seven and attributes the worst aspects to society’s attitudes about it: “I think if this sort of thing was tolerated I would not have felt so fucking alienated, so hated, as a child, I would have not been an outcast.”

*'''Denizet-Lewis, Benoit. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20120408053610/http://www.bostonmagazine.com/articles/boy_crazy/ Boy Crazy]", ''Boston Magazine'', May 2001'''
**Famous poet [[Allen Ginsberg]] commented on the 1977 pedophilia scandal in Revere, Massachusetts, "I had sex when I was 8 with a man in the back of my grandfather’s candy store in Revere, and I turned out okay."
**Best-selling Canadian author [[James Dubro]] was 14 in 1961 when he started having sex with a 22-year-old college student who remains his friend 40 years later.

*'''Author [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1588180395 Kirk Read]'''
*: In his 2001 book, How I Learned to Snap, Kirk Read tells of his sexual experiences with adults starting at age 13, which he says saved his life. "Intergenerational sex saved my life", "American culture's only frame of reference for sex with minors is abuse. I don't deny that abuse occurs, but this should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. A blanket approach that criminalizes all sex between adults and minors undermines the fact that for many gay teenagers, sex with an adult can be a beautiful, life-changing experience. It was for me", "I sought out sex with older men time and time again as a teenager. I had fumbling sexual encounters with other kids as a preadolescent, but they always left me unsatisfied. None of us knew what we were doing, and our shame and fear overwhelmed any joy of discovery" (pp. 57-59) [http://web.archive.org/web/20110520025428/http://nambla.org/snap.htm Reviewed] by NAMBLA.

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/johnny.htm Johnny], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Maternally approved gay sex at 12. "(Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) Tss ... There aren't any. [...except] to explain that to my family, or to keep his orientation hidden from them."

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/peter.htm Peter], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Happy with pedophile contacts from an early age (around ten). "(Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) I don't have any."

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/stephan.htm Stephan], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Descriptive account of yet another acceptable relationship, beginning at age 11. "Ferdinand really picked me up in a terrific way. I have learned lots from him, I've had many experiences and I've done lots of things with Ferdinand. I have learned something about human nature from Ferdinand. And other important things in society, responsibility, how to go about with money. I still don't do that very well, you know, it just didn't stick with me. But, you know, that sort of thing. The important things in life. Before Ferdinand I didn't know about any of these things and through him I have discovered them. Also, I always say, "I didn't have a childhood until I met Ferdinand. Then I received my childhood." And that is really how it was because before that I had so many problems. [...] (Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) Not one! That is very easy to say. Not one."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/host/sandfort_87/Appendix.htm Thijs and Joop], quoted in: Sandfort, Theo (1987). ''Boys on Their Contacts with Men'', Elmhurst, NY: Global Academic Publishers.'''
*:Befriended by a boylover at nine, and enjoying sex. "(Interviewer: What do you find the unpleasant aspects of sex with Joop?) There aren't any. I don't know of any, at least. [...] (Interviewer: Can you say who starts it, when you have sex?) Either of us. Sometimes me, yeah, mostly me. But he, too, real often. [...] (Interviewer: What do you think your mother would feel about your having sex with Joop?) I guess she'd think it was dirty. She'd think a man doing that with a child wasn't normal, that you just shouldn't do it. That's what she'd say. (Interviewer: And how do you feel about her thinking that way?) Rotten stupid! Although I wouldn't tell her it was rotten stupid. I mean, what business is it of hers? It's my business what I do. [...] (Interviewer: How do you feel about your having sex with Joop?) It's just really nice. (Interviewer: It's no problem for you?) It's just like a man going to bed with a woman--I think it's exactly the same: nice. And the feelings and so on they have, I have too."

*'''Interviewee, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality]''.'''
*:"My first homosexual experience came at the age of five or six, when I would play with this boy who was at that time about sixteen. He would ask me if I wanted to go into his house for something to eat, like some cookies or something. Of course I would go. Next he would ask me if I would go into the bedroom with him. Upon entering the bedroom, he would undress and ask me to do the same. I would, probably out of fright. I distinctly remember his body being very hairy, so perhaps I underestimated his age. Anyway, after undressing, he would tell me to bend over and then he would insert his erect penis into my anal region and start thrusting back and forth. He would then stimulate my penis and want me to do the same to him. We also masturbated each other, with him reaching orgasm and myself only being stimulated. I also spent some time in oral-genital contact. I did find the whole experience quite pleasing and continued to engage in these activities for a week or two. Then, and I don't recall why, we suddenly stopped doing it completely."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/library_2/rind/rind_gay_boys_app.htm Bruce Rind, quoting accounts from Savin-Williams (1997).]'''
*:[B: 13, M: 22] "Subject and adult brother often massaged each other. "This time, however, I got a little hard and then he noted I had grown so much since he last saw me naked. He asked me jokingly if he could suck my dick. I said 'yes' so we got off on each other. He did me and then I did him. He came all over me but I did not. This lasted a month until he headed back to work. I do miss him as a friend and a brother. Was nothing romantic." Subject added, "I liked it, ... felt good. I wanted to do it again and again. I already knew my brother was gay and that I was attracted to men so this did not prove or disprove that I was gay."
*:[B: 15, M: 27] "[It was with] the mailman, honest to God! On and off for two years. The first time was when I came to the door to get a special delivery package in my sheer designer underwear, from American Male. I was changing to go back to school. He sprouted a boner, I got hard, he grabbed mine, I grabbed his, and we were off and running. Every day I'd come home for lunch; my mother worked. I had to be quick so he'd not get docked for late deliveries. He had a real thing for redheads like me. He was very forward, connected with me, and told me how hot I was. Talked about our backgrounds. It ended when he suddenly got transferred and contact became difficult. We visited each other and had sex, but it was hard and we agreed mutually because of the distance that it was better that we be friends and not lovers" (p. 172).
*:[B: 12, M: 22] It lasted 9 months with his science teacher. "It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren't home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn't a teacher at my school no more" (p. 163). "
*:[B: 12, M: 35] The man was a family friend; the sex was mutually initiated, oral, off and on for 10 years (a couple of times per month), and "physically great." It confused the subject that the man was married, yet was willing to have sex with him. "Eventually I fell in love with him; knew I was gay but did not broadcast this; I was curious because of the age difference. Mutual oral sex happened after he fondled me; it was the first orgasm I ever had."
*:[B: 13, M: 38] "Family friend. I initiated on a camping trip; we were in same tent at state park; oral sex to orgasm for both of us; several times during the night; incredibly erotic, tremendous release, very pleasurable. Not real close; didn't enjoy kissing. Afterwards scary because I enjoyed it so much. Not wanting to be near him on the trip because afraid others would notice. Once per month for the next 4 years that I initiated; never talked about it; sex was all it was. Wished I was straight so the attractions would go away, because the sexual gratification was so strong."
*:[B: 14, M: 26] "It was with a stranger; he initiated it; it involved oral and mutual masturbation, we did it 10 more times. I was excited, was loved and in love, got affection, but was not prepared for sex. It was not so l much that I wanted his affection; I was attracted to him. This relationship lasted a week then three months later we met again and we were sexual."

*'''[[Bruce Rind]] - “The Problem with Consensus Morality”, in [https://sci-hub.wf/10.1023/a:1020603214218 Peer Commentaries on Green (2002) and Schmidt (2002)]. ''Archives of Sexual Behavior,'' Vol. 31, No. 6, December 2002.'''

::"These are based on a sampling of interviews I recently conducted on individuals who learned about me from publicity surrounding my publications and contacted me to tell their stories. These cases, involving five men who had sex as boys around age 10 with men, dispute Schmidt’s claim that there can never be sexual consensus between prepubescents and adults. The cases are cross-national, coming from Australia, Canada, England, France, and the United States. The first three men are homosexual and the last two are heterosexual. All names have been altered to preserve confidentiality.

:*Case 1. Nathan, a 45-year-old Brit, began being intensely curious about adult male genitalia when he was 8. At this age, in attempt to satisfy this curiosity, he surreptitiously went into the room of his household’s sleeping man servant and fondled him under his bed covers. By age 10, his curiosity had turned into sexual arousal. He unsuccessfully tried to solicit sex from men in locker rooms. At age 11, he met a neighbor man, whom he worked on over many visits in attempt to initiate sex. Eventually, he succeeded. In his many repeats with the man over the next 2 years, Nathan reported that he was the “conductor” - he controlled the sexual interactions. While still a boy, he had several other sexual relations with men, all of which he viewed as very positive. He thinks the sex helped his sexual self-confidence: as he matured, he knew exactly what he wanted in sex, while his peers were still searching.

:*Case 2. James, a 23-year-old Canadian, first felt sexually aroused by other males at age 6 and had his first sex at 8 with a peer. At 11, he befriended a neighbor man, towhom he gave many signals, hoping for sex to occur. Eventually, it did, which made him feel proud and closer to the man. Over the next 3 years, he visited the man regularly, often secretly to avoid the possibility of his parents ending the relationship. He saw the relationship as very positive and said it built his personality (e.g., greater self-confidence) and influenced many of his tastes (e.g., an appreciation for literature).

:*Case 3. Daniel, a 33-year-old Frenchman, was physically affectionate with his father starting at age 6. By 8, he became sexually attracted to him. At 10, he initiated sexual fondling with him, which the father accepted. In the sexual relationship, which lasted 4 years, Daniel always initiated the sex. In retrospect, he cherished the intimacy and described the relationship as "beautiful, pure, security, confidence, and love." He said it built his sexual self-confidence.

:*Case 4. At age 8, Dennis, a 21-year-old American, initiated sexual contact with a man friendly with his family, whom he suspected of being involved with his older brother. Sex occurred between them for the next 2 years. He said he usually initiated the encounters because he was always ready for sex. He described the relationship as the most positive he has ever had. He saw himself as having the upper hand, because he felt he had control over the man, who went to great lengths to fulfill his wishes. He felt that his adolescent and adult sexual relations went more smoothly because of the competence he got from these early experiences. Asked how a heterosexual male could have enjoyed homosexual relations, he answered that he was attracted to sex back then, not females or males per se.

:*Case 5. John, a 22-year-old Australian, first realized his sexual arousal to girls at age 8. By 9, he felt lonely and was bullied by older boys, when he met a male neighbor in his late teens. They quickly became friends, and John spent a lot of time at his house. The young man eventually initiated masturbatory sex with him. John was at first apprehensive that others would find out, but became comfortable with the sex once he felt safe from this concern. The relationship lasted 3 years. He was proud to be seen with the older male, saw him as his protector, and saw the intimacy they had as the highlight of his life. Asked if the relationship was consenting, he said yes, because he wanted it, the young man wanted it, he loved the young man, so consent meant, "Yes, do it.""

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00dec18c_a_professor_speaks.htm William Percy] (UMASS professor), quoted in: Lipman, Lisa. "UMASS professor advocates pederasty", ''Associated Press'', November 26, 2000.'''
*:"William Armstrong Percy III says that when he was 14, he seduced a male soldier while traveling on a train. "I never got enough sex with an older man. I don't see that I was harmed at all, except being deprived of not having more," said Percy. "I was already the aggressor."

*'''Tindall, Ralph (1978). "[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/tindall.htm The male adolescent involved with a pederast becomes an adult]", ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 3(4), pp. 375-379.'''
*:Several accounts. "During his 11th year he began spending his spare time around a service station, where he became acquainted with a master mechanic who was then in his early 40s, married, and childless. [...] On a fishing trip, during a break on an island, they began talking about sex, which led to Denver's being fellated by the mechanic and to masturbation of the mechanic by Denver. For the next 5 years mutual fellatio occurred two or three times per week. Sexual activity with the mechanic ceased at about age 19, but a close relationship continued to exist until the mechanic's death. Denver is now 44 years of age. [...] Denver remarried and has been a valued mechanic with the same company for 20 years. He has a supervisory position and believes that his relationship with his mechanic friend helped him reach his goals. He says he would have approved a similar relationship for either of his sons, had he become aware of such a situation. He reports no desire to have sex with males since approximately age 20."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Statements/factoids.htm Heinz Kohut] (psychologist), quoted in: Strozier, Charles (2001). ''Heinz Kohut: The Making of a Psychoanalyst'', pp. 95-96.'''
*:"I had this private tutor, who was a very important person in my life. He would take me to museums and swimming and concerts and we had endless intellectual conversations and played complicated intellectual games and played chess together" They also did sexual things together, which they both enjoyed, but Kohut felt the sex was more or less incidental. The important thing for him was the relationship. He said "I was an only child. So it was in some way psychologically life-saving for me. I was very fond of this fellow." Heinz was about 10 or 11 at the time. He describes his years with his tutor as being perhaps the happiest ones in his life."

*'''Stanley, Jessica L.; Bartholomew, Kim; Oram, Doug (2004). "[http://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/gay-and-bisexual-mens-age-discrepant-cse Gay and Bisexual Men's Age-Discrepant Childhood Sexual Experiences]", ''The Journal of Sex Research'', 41(4), pp. 381-389'''
*:"One man, at 14 years old, researched the location of gay bars and met a man with whom he had a few sexual encounters and with whom he has maintained a friendship for nearly 20 years."

*'''Dolezal, Curtis; Carballo-Diéguez, Alex (2002). "[http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Childhood+sexual+experiences+and+the+perception+of+abuse+among+Latino...-a094130312 Childhood sexual experiences and the perception of abuse among Latino men who have sex with men]," ''Journal of Sex Research'', 39(3), pp. 165-173.'''
*:"The men who did not consider the event to be abuse also frequently referred to their volition, with approximately two thirds stating that it was consensual and that they were not forced into the situation. Several felt that they had actually initiated the experience (e.g., "It was my initiative," "I was the one who went out for it," and "I exposed myself in front of him and provoked him." More common responses simply stated that they agreed to the encounter(s) (e.g., "I agreed to everything," "I was consenting," and "I was curious, I wanted to do it"). One participant was 12 and had a 17-year-old male partner. They had sexual contact 5 times over the course of a year. The participant was penetrated orally and anally. He said he was not coerced but was emotionally and physically hurt. Yet he did not consider it sexual abuse because "I agreed to it. I insisted more than the other person for this to take place." Another participant was 10 when he had sexual contact on 20 occasions over 3 months with a 25-year-old male neighbor. The events involved mutual masturbation and oral sex. The participant did not feel coerced or hurt and did not feel it was sexual abuse "because I seduced the neighbor.""

*'''[[Peter Tatchell]] (gay rights campaigner) in a letter to The Guardian Newspaper, UK, June 26, 1997'''
*:"Several of my friends - gay and straight, male and female - had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy."

*'''Lee, quoted in: Tatchell, Peter. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20090804172756/http://www.petertatchell.net/age%20of%20consent/14%20gay%20boyfriend.htm I'm 14, I'm gay & I want a boyfriend]", ''Thud'', 15 August 1997.'''
*:"Lee is 14. He's been having sex with boys since the age of eight, and with men since he was 12. Lee has a serious problem. He wants a steady relationship and has been going out recently with a guy in his mid-twenties, who he met at the hairdressers. But in the eyes of the law, Lee's partner is a paedophile and Lee is a victim of child abuse. That's not, however, the way Lee sees it: "I want to have a boyfriend. It's my choice. No one's abusing me. Why should we be treated like criminals?". This is a live issue for Lee because he prefers relationships with older guys. "I don't get on with people my own age", says Lee. "They're too immature. I like men in their 20s or early 30s. They are more experienced and serious. With them, you can get into a closer relationship than with a teenager"."

*'''[https://web.archive.org/web/20120206114650/https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/science/15gajdusek.html "D. [[Carleton Gajdusek]], Who Won Nobel for Work on Brain Disease, Is Dead at 85"]'''
*:"D. Carleton Gajdusek, a virologist who won the 1976 Nobel Prize in medicine for his work on the mysterious epidemics now known as prion diseases, died last week in Tromso, Norway. [...] In later life, Dr. Gajdusek became notorious when he was charged with molesting the many young boys he had adopted in New Guinea and Micronesia and brought to live with him in Maryland. He pleaded guilty to one charge, served a year in prison and left the United States in 1998, dividing his time between Paris, Amsterdam and Tromso. [...] He also remained unrepentant about the sexual relationships with his adopted sons, Dr. Klitzman said. He considered American law prudish and pointed out that sex with young men was normal in the cultures he studied and in the classic Greek societies at the foundation of Western civilization. His legal assistant, Dorrie Runman, who was previously married to one of his sons, John Runman, said Dr. Gajdusek's survivors included “his adopted sons and daughters, including Yavine Borimaand Jesse Mororui-Gajdusek in the United States, and two nephews, Karl Lawrence Gajdusek and Mark Terry.” His children were legally adopted, Ms. Runman said. He put several through college and graduate or medical school. Some of them, now in their 50s, supported him during his legal troubles, while one sibling testified against him."

*'''[[Terry Leahy|Leahy, Terry]] (1992). "Positively Experienced Man/Boy Sex: The Discourse of Seduction and the Social Construction of Masculinity," ''Australian and New Zealand Journal of Sociology'', 28(1), pp. 71-88.'''
*:A study of eight people who perceived their childhood (under 16) contacts with adults positively.
*:"Derek describes his first sexual encounter with a man in the following way. He is at the park at six o’clock on the swing. A man rushes towards him and begins to strip off:
*::I just sat there looking. I didn’t know what to do but sort of thrilling. I looked, gawked, sort of ... I didn’t mind, I just kept on swinging on the swing. And I wasn’t scared or anything and he just come up to me and said ’Oh, how are ya?’ and I said ’Oh, not too bad’. In other words, coming on to me. And he turned around and said, ’Oh, what’s your name?’ And I’d tell him my name ’cause I wasn’t scared or anything because it was in a park and it was about six o’clock, really early, six, you know what I mean. And he just said, ’Would you like a drink?’ and I said ’No’. Then I started getting a bit nervy, nervous sort of thing. I knew, I must ... I knew in a way that he’d do something. So I just sat there, you know, and he said, ’Oh, would you like to come for a drive?’ Well I rushed him! So I just went for a drive with him and there we got off. First time, we got off ... I wanted to try it out. So I tried it. It was a really good feeling. Ever since then I kept on going.
*:Here the narrative of this event begins with Derek sitting innocently on the swing. A man appears with obvious sexual intentions. Derek is instantly thrilled and takes voyeuristic pleasure in seeing him undress. He is not scared to go with the man and in fact ’rushes’ him. The sex is great and he has an orgasm. Even anal sex, though a bit uncomfortable at first, is enjoyed. All this has happened because he wanted to try it out and having done so he is eager to repeat the experience. This is typical of the discourse of male adolescent sexuality - spontaneous, adventurous, sexual pleasure is guaranteed, and casual contact is exciting. Derek presents himself as an active and initiating party. The events that take place are in reponse to his emerging self constituted sexual desire. All this works against any interpretation of Derek as a victim of homosexual seduction. Summarising his attitude to these sexual encounters on another occasion he concludes:
*::I mean to say, sex is sex, you gotta, you know, well ... The way I feel, what would you do without it? It’s just something normal. Sex is just normal for everybody. Not just for me, for everybody and to do without ... I reckon it would be pretty hard to do without it so you’re just going to have to think.
*:[...]
*:Christopher’s interview provides a thorough discussion of these issues. At the time when he was interviewed he was in his mid thirties. His relationship with an adult gay man, George, began when he was about nine years old and lasted till he was eighteen. In a wry comment on the discourse of seduction he offered this remark:
*::So I suppose then, you want to know now if I’m fucked up now sexually because of this terrible trauma of my childhood? Well - no. Umm. My main thrust - pun! - is heterosexual but ahh, I still occasionally sleep with males but when I say occasionally I mean very occasionally.
*:[...]
*:In particular, in discussing the various sexual activities in which he was engaged, Christopher stresses the physical pleasures of various acts and argues that his initial reservations about particular practices (oral sex, anal sex) were broken down as he received physical pleasure from these activities and came to feel that it was only fair to reciprocate."

*'''Philip, quoted in: [[Richard Yuill]] (2010). "[http://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/interrogating-essential-moral-baselines-adult-child-sex Interrogating the Essential: Moral Baselines on Adult-Child Sex]", ''Thymos'', 4(2), pp. 149-167.'''
*:"Philip: [Aged 7] My first arousal of adult men was when I was in Africa. ... It was just my curiosity was piqued and I noticed that he was washing his genitals. He started to get an erection. ... I was curious to explore his body further. About three or four days later I crept into his bedroom. ... I think he was fast asleep and I started playing with his penis. ... I was just curious what an erection was. I think I’d experienced it a bit as a boy but they would come and go . . . and I certainly hadn’t seen anything as big as that. ... I was most excited by his sexual excitement. There was no sexual excitement for myself, it was just pure curiosity but he was clearly very aroused, and my touching him increased his arousal - that excited me more. I think it was just like childhood curiosity.
*:"Philip: There was a chap who lived in the apartment above ours called Paul. . . I got onto the bed with him and he just had his shorts on.... He didn’t resist me, my advances to touch him and stroke him physically but he was a bit taken aback when I tried to feel his genitals.
*:"Researcher: You mentioned the first experimentation, looking at men's erections. Can you recall the first time when you took it further, thinking about sexual activity?
*:"Philip: Paul actually on one occasion (when I was playing around with him and he was masturbating) inserted his finger into my backside, which really did excite me!
*:"Philip: We had a next-door neighbour . . . and I was probably about nine–ten years old. He was going through a divorce, and I had got to know him quite well. ... I asked him if it would be okay if I stopped over for the night. ... I got into bed with him and started playing around with him. And at first he objected, but I just persevered and got him fully sexually aroused and was masturbating him and trying to get him to orgasm. Because that was my objective: to get men to achieve orgasm. ... I persuaded him that I liked to have my bottom played with. . . . He loved my arse-hole. Of course that was my dream. And as our friendship (because it wasn’t a relationship) developed, we would get more and more bold about inserting things into my backside.
*:"Philip: Now I was twelve/thirteen, and I was definitely having much stronger sexual responses. I was having orgasms. I wasn't ejaculating as far as I can remember at that time. . . I used to get him to do risky things like put his fingers inside me when we were at the swimming baths in the cubicle drying afterwards. That was quite a turn on: the fact that it was in such a public environment, and I think the power I had over him in the sexual department. . . I could wrap him round my finger to have sex. It was quite easily done and it was me that made the advances... He just identified as a sexual man and saw me as this curious boy who liked his arse being played with.
*:"Researcher: Did he at any time give pleasure to you through masturbation?
*:"Philip: I used to masturbate myself. He would occasionally do it but I wasn't really interested in that. My orgasms came through being screwed, the friction of rubbing my body against the sheets. The masturbating element really developed from my playing with him but I could quite easily get orgasms from being buggered.
*:"Philip: This was a much older man (in his mid-fifties). Whereas the neighbour was in his thirties (a very virile docker) the older man was much more intelligent, more cultured and the relationship between ourselves was far more cerebral. I'd go round, and we would read and listen to music... It was a more intelligent, mature relationship than the one I’d had with the docker, which had really been seduction on my part, very physical. . .This person didn't have a huge penis unlike the docker, but that didn’t bother me. This was a different relationship. We did things together, camping. . . . The friendship I had with the docker (the physical friendship) there was no sort of mental connection at all. I went round there purely to get my rocks off. But with the older bloke. ... I wanted to learn more about music, about literature. It was more of an intellectual side. It was very good and there was equally, if not more, stimulation from the intellectual side than the physical side. Maybe every couple of weeks we would have sex. It was just masturbatory sex.
*:"Researcher: You mentioned that you always had an interest in adult men?
*:"Philip: Yeah! I would say that from the age of seven onwards that my focus on sex and men have always been more mature men.... In all the relationships and friendships I was involved in, I knew exactly what I was doing, and knew what I set out to do and was fully in control. And there were times as a boy, I travelled to and from school by train . . . and you would occasionally get old men into the apartment. ... Sometimes I’d get turned on by that and hope that something happened and I’d engineer a situation. I’d play with my crotch or something to see if they were watching out the corner of their eye but if ever a man made an approach on me that would terrify me. ... I had to at all times be the seducer and initiator, and I think that was right and proper because I was a child and I knew my circumstances, I knew I was smaller and they were bigger and stronger men and I knew what rape was, and knew what physical assault was, and I wasn’t going to let that happen to me. ... It never happened to me!"

*'''Ian Bernard''', [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnSixDLrGlw Free Talk Live], 2010 [https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH backup].
*:Summary: Radio show host pursued relations as an 11 year old boy, and refuses to back down. Co-host says he is unusually well-adjusted and doesn't need to see a psychiatrist, as callers express their disbelief.
*'''[https://www.counterpunch.org/2005/01/29/the-passion-of-paul-shanley/ The Passion of Paul Shanley], 2005.'''
*:Summary: A famous priest is accused of multiple sexual relations with adolescent boys and men. JoAnn Wypijewski of CounterPunch explains the nuance behind what media are presenting as a simple case of sexual predation.
*'''[https://fstube.net/w/6ij9noaketMafmBdsGVHqg Scotty Bowers - Excerpts from the 2018 movie] by Matt Tyrnauer, "Scotty and the Secret History of Hollywood"'''.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20040823204921/http://www.logicalreality.com/openbb/read.php?TID=164 Pluto], on the Logical Reality forum.'''
*:Emotional need for sex with a boy, at 56, after enjoying the reverse long ago. Pluto's early childhood experience involved showering with a grown man, and enjoying sexual contact. At the time of the act, it would have most certainly been disapproved of, but there was no moral panic in place to rob him of his self-worth. "Yes, I did have sex with an adult when I was very young--10, 11, 12 years old--and I treasure and cherish the memories... [...] I was not hurt in any way by it. i only wish there had been more times when he fooled around with me."

*'''Kevin, from "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/01oct01c_my_father.htm My Father and I]", Kids Speak Out forum at allaboutsex.org'''
*:Positive man-boy incest is interrupted by a mother. "My father molested me from the time I was two till I was 15. We would lie naked and he would play with my penis. Then he would give me oral sex. When I was old enough I then started sucking him too. He never hurt me or tried to have anal sex with me, even though I wanted him to. I had anal sex with him, a few times, once my father decided my penis was big enough. My father and I would plan things around the times where we could meet and make each other feel good. My mother found out and two months ago my father was sent to prison. What my father did to me was not rape, at all. He never hurt me. In fact, I looked forward to spending the time with him but my mother and the police don't seem to listen."

*'''[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/19/national/main2104978.shtml Mark Foley]'''
*:Former American Republican, at 13-years-old. "The Rev. Anthony Mercieca, 72, described several encounters that he said Foley might perceive as sexually inappropriate, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune reported. They include massaging Foley while the boy was naked, skinny-dipping together at a secluded lake in Lake Worth and being nude in the same room on overnight trips. "Once maybe I touched him or so ... but I didn't, it's not something you call rape or penetration or anything like that," Mercieca told West Palm Beach station WPTV in a phone interview. "He seemed to like it, you know? So it was sort of more like a spontaneous thing". Mercieca said."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20111005050911/http://richarddawkins.net/articles/118 Richard Dawkins] (biologist)'''
*:From an article of his, that despite not being exactly sex-positive, goes as far as is 'acceptable' in playing down the impact of nonviolent, situational fondling of children by priests, while attacking the religious dogmas that sometimes cause so much shame after such encounters. "Being fondled by the Latin master in the Squash Court was a disagreeable sensation for a nine-year-old, a mixture of embarrassment and skin-crawling revulsion, but it was certainly not in the same league as being led to believe that I, or someone I knew, might go to everlasting fire. As soon as I could wriggle off his knee, I ran to tell my friends and we had a good laugh, our fellowship enhanced by the shared experience of the same sad pedophile. I do not believe that I, or they, suffered lasting, or even temporary damage from this disagreeable physical abuse of power. Given the Latin Master’s eventual suicide, maybe the damage was all on his side."

*'''[https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/fortuyn-favoured-depraved-2507525 Pim Fortuyn]'''
*:Populist, anti-immigration, homosexual politician from the Netherlands (deceased): "Fortuyn's first experience occurred when he was five years old. "The Dutch soldier asks if I want to see his tent. That's what I want. I like it and they all are sleeping on the ground in a sleeping-bag. I ask if it is hard and cold to sleep on the ground. Oh no, come here. Together we crawl in his sleeping-bag. The soldier asks my name and I ask his name. “He is called Arie and he asks if I like that name. Yes, I think that's a nice name and I lie beside him, nice and warm." Fortuyn then described a close sexual encounter with the soldier before leaving his sleeping-bag "to go and play outside." He added: "Can I come back tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow I may come back, says Arie." A few pages later, he describes another incident: "I went to the park for a walk, it was very silent and the sun was shining. On the bench sat a young fellow. I stood still, curious." Fortuyn relates another sexual encounter - this time in explicit detail. He concludes: "I was frightened and ran away to my home, to my mother. Excited, I ran into the room. My mother looked at me searchingly and asked what had happened. Nothing, of course. Watch out, little man, was the only thing she said. A glass of lemonade made me calm down. Yes, that was exciting." Most telling is his appraisal of these memories. "In chapter 1 about the 1950s, I wrote about my early sexual experiences, experiences that I see as an enrichment. Today, an experience like that in the park could easily lead to a complaint by parents to the police because of paedophilia, and the relevant young man would be in trouble. But why? "He didn't do me any harm. On the contrary, he showed me something that was incomprehensibly exciting and I could feel and touch it, but today we are ready to interfere with complete teams of professionals. By interfering in such an irritating and grown-up way in the world of children, we make an enormous problem of something that for a child is no problem at all and is only exciting.""

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20111121032020/http://www.mwillett.org/Debate/viewtopic.php?p=121929#121929 Todd Nickerson]'''
*:A self-declared pedophile writes: "I did have a single sexual encounter with an adult when I was a child, though I would hardly describe it as traumatic or even unpleasant. My memory of being touched—and that’s all it amounted to—is that it was, at most, a little confusing since I didn’t really understand what was taking place. Not that I really minded, though. In fact, after it occurred, I went immediately to a relative and bragged to her about it."

*'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voor_een_verloren_soldaat Voor Een Verloren Soldaat] (For A Lost Soldier), 1986 autobiographical novel by Rudi van Dantzig, made into a movie in 1992'''
*:Acclaimed ballet dancer and choreographer Rudi van Dantzig tells the story of his brief romance at twelve with a Canadian soldier at the end of World War II.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080517041605/http://www.freewebtown.com/newsstand/archive/0316.html Unnamed Indian boy], quoted in: "I found myself in the victim syndrome", ''Hindustan Times'', 21 January 2006.'''
*:Newspaper article about M8 + M19 sex and the victim syndrome "Once I was about 15, I grew familiar with terms like paedophilia and child abuse and started to realise what I had been through. This too had a downside. I found myself in 'the victim syndrome'. I started using this incident as an excuse to endear myself to people and constantly looked at myself as victimised in relationships and emotional circumstances. This persists even today but I try to rid myself of this misery."

*'''Sateryn on the IIDB forum<ref>Offline and no archives found for: '''iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=3730495&postcount=250'''</ref>'''
*:Got a 'kick' out of illegal sex play with adults, at five, but disliked the following investigation "you know the most traumatic part about being molested as a child? sitting in a room with your parents and a therapist staring at you, forcing you to take naked cloth dolls and use them to put on a puppet show to show the adults what happened to you. the physical act of it? the molestation itself? hell, it was interesting... i was 5, it was something new, and i lucked out in that it wasn't violent, just people getting their rocks off - and quite frankly i got a kick out of it, at the time."

*''' Member of the IIDB forum<ref>Offline and no archives found for: '''iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3924233#post3924233'''</ref>'''
*:Another member comments about their indifference, and expands later on. "I remember one incident when I was 9 or so and my uncles were 20 and 21. They brought me and a cousin who's about my age to their room and we engaged in oral sex. It was a one-time thing, but I didn't repress the memory, felt ashamed by it, or otherwise damaged by it. We didn't talk about it though, and it doesn't come to mind often. Is that counted as abuse? I had no strong feelings about it then or now. [...] I don't claim that it didn't affect me then, but it affected me in the way sexual activities affect us at that age - that of guilt of doing something I was taught is wrong or shameful. It's the same feeling I got then after masturbation and sexual experimentation with my friends, male and female."

*'''[https://www.boychat.org/messages/967788.htm Hangtwenty] on BoyChat, December 2005.'''
*:1950s boylove with an oversexed 12-year-old. "....The most intense affair happened between 1956 and 1958.... The boy, who was 12 when it started, not only told me that I was his 'best friend', but that I was his 'only friend'...! ....Since we both lived with our parents then, and both lived in the same apartment house, we were together alot... His intensity to be sexual with me was much stronger than mine was for him..!"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[https://secure.boychat.org/messages/1219065.htm Sick Rose (BC)] [https://archive.is/irc9j mirror]'''
*:Excellent testimony on pederastic relationships in a boys school. Includes close attention to how one of the participants subsequently grew up gay, and then reoriented his story of consensual sex with a teacher for political reasons.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080724184401/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~2.html Gerald], quoted by Inquisition 21'''
*:Convicted for loving sex with teenage boys, after they made unfortunate spousal choices.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100420224516/http://www.martijn.org/info/2000_002_EN.html Dirk Tieleman], quoted in "Tieleman op eenzame hoogte", ''OK magazine'' 74'''
*:A journalist claims that a slightly coercive relationship worked to his own benefit. "When I was thirteen, a boy of seventeen sexually used me for a period of time with slight coercion, but I never really felt bad about that. He jacked me off and forced me to jack him off, and at first I felt uncomfortable about that, but after a few times I began to enjoy it myself and the aspect of coercion trailed off. Off course, being a thirteen-year-old boy, I found it curious that I was doing such things with another boy, but I realize now that this first sexual experience has helped me approach girls - to whom I was far more attracted - confidently and without qualms later on. That first sexual experience with a boy was, to me, the perfect introduction to sexuality. [...] In the past years, since the Dutoux scandal, I've been hearing people say all the time that any form of sex with children would automatically lead to great disturbances and 'damage the innocent child's soul beyond repair', but I feel confident in stating with absolute certainty that I haven't suffered the least bit of damage from my first sexual experiences with that older boy - not as a child, and not now. On the contrary: I have always had a very normal and healthy sex life, perhaps even because of that first experience."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080430072153/http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_553687.html Kevin B. Johnson's boyfriend], quoted in: Wills, Rick. "Sexual abuse charges leveled against Seneca Valley instructor", ''Tribune Review'', February 22, 2008.'''
*:"The second boy [15/16?] described a sexual relationship with Johnson that began when the youth was a freshman in 2004 and continued until last month. He told police, "I am not a victim. I was a willing participant," according to the affidavit."

*'''Boylover.net member on experiences as an 11-year-old boy'''
*:"We piled back into the limo and it drove us to Toronto where we went to a stage play. I don’t remember what we saw because my head was still spinning about the fact that this attractive man, one who could have any female he wanted, was in love with me and was doing all this to make this night as special as he could. After the play, we headed for home. Limo drivers must have orders to ignore whatever they see going on in the back because ours got quite an eyeful. He was treated to the sight of an eleven-year-old boy and a nineteen-year-old man acting like boyfriends. We kissed, we petted, and we worked each other into an erotic frenzy, a frenzy for which there could only be one consummation."

*'''Boylover.net member on intercourse'''
*:"I was 10 and it was with an Adult Friend. I did not, nor do I now think I was abused. (well not by my AF anyway) I liked it. We only ever did the things I wanted to do."

*'''Gieles, Frans (2006). "[http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/sot/offender.htm#3-6a_narrative_force 'But sir, you are an offender!': Narrative coercion as method of behavior modification]"'''
*:"Craisatie (1998, among others page 117) describes a client who, as a child, had frequented a group, which in the book was called 'a child pornography ring'. As a child, he never had seen this as being abuse. Contrarily, he said that he'd gotten a lot of love, comradeship and care, which he did not get at home. Craisatie describes it as an example of successful treatment that his client ultimately abandoned his feeling of being loved and changed it into the feeling of being abused although this occurred only gradually and very late in the treatment process [...] Ehrenreich (2004) describes a man who for nineteen years was held in a closed clinic. He denied his offense, thus refused to speak about it, thus he did not cooperate, thus year after year his stay was renewed. Then, he changed tack: he 'acknowledged' his offense, he spoke about it, he did exactly what the therapists ordered, and said that he benefited from their treatment. This was the only way to be released. The man has been released. Then it turned out that his accusers had lied about everything they had said, under high pressure of the police: there never had been an offense."

*'''Boy in Dan Tsang's [https://library.lol/main/E9CBDB46170B45354650BEFF403D8341 ''The Age Taboo'' (1981). London: Gay Men's Press].'''
*:"It's often not the man who goes out to seduce the boy, but the other way round. In my first experience, I did the seducing. . . . It is mostly the boys who go out in search of sexual satisfaction from men..."

*'''[http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bta8oOuDtoI Man(?) on YouTube]'''
*:An extremely detailed account that was hindered by a voice concealer. Person had a positive relationship as youngster, and has met pedophiles.

*'''[http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/net/2007/10/19/orphans.admit.clown.fondled.them.html Carlock the Clown]'''
*:Some young children pleaded with authorities not to press charges against a clown who played with them sexually. "Surprisingly though, when asked by American embassy officials if they wanted their "Kuya Paul" charged in court for abusing them, all the three kids pleaded with the officials not to file a case against Carlock. "Please don't file a case against Kuya Paul. He is a good man, he is a good man," the kids said. "The kids told me that they loved the man so much because he was so good to them. They said they treated the man as their father. Paul gave them candies, lollipops," Karasuyama said." The clown was eventually [http://web.archive.org/web/20100325034303/http://illinoishomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=9747 tasered and killed by police].

*'''[http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/i-teenage-friend-michael-jackson-5083645 Terry George on "phone sex" with Michael Jackson]''' 
*:According to George, Michael Jackson engaged him in "phone sex" at the age of 13: "I do not feel like a victim and I never did feel like a victim," he said. See [http://www.terrygeorge.co.uk/about/michael-jackson/ directory] for other articles.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100325044759/http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/43/confessions-of-a-proud-pedophile-phillip-distasio-says-getting-caught-was-all-part-of-his-plan Phillip Distasio]'''
*:Imprisoned for life; a proud pedophile activist who had a relationship with an older man at 12. "Distasio describes himself as a second-generation pedophile: at the age of 12, he began a relationship with an older man, a swimming instructor named Charlie, at a boys' club in Massachusetts. He says he's known about his proclivity since age 9. "To me," he says, "it is as valid as any other sexual orientation.""

*'''[http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r18540381-Please-Read-Think-and-Stand-UP- "Jay78" commenting on broadbandreports.com]''' 
*:"Also, when I was about 6 years of age I was sexually "used" without coercion by an adult family member in ways that today would have put that person in prison. I almost forgot about that seemingly anecdotal incident and memory until I was reminded of it by the current hysteria over that kind of thing. Compared with the other things I experienced, that was not even worth thinking of, I would never hurt that person who did that and have a good relationship with that person today."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/rivas_howard_miller.htm "Howard Miller" as told to Titus Rivas, Ipce]'''
*:"We would zip our sleeping bags together and he would tickle and massage me all over. He would tell me dirty jokes while helping me with my homework and get me aroused. Then we would masturbate together. He satisfied me and then himself or we satisfied ourselves while watching each other. I thought that he was fascinating to look at and occasionally touch but not to satisfy. [...] I have only good feelings about what happened but am sad that most people will never be able to understand that. I also wish that we didn't have to worry about each other getting into trouble with the society over what happened. [...] Because I had such a positive experience as a child I believe that I can say with absolute certainty that sometimes such relationships can be very positive. Notice I don't say that they always will be, but heck more than 50% of marriages end in divorce. Most real child abuse occurs in families. Should then marriage be outlawed?"

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080929074056/http://www.boylover.net/info/scrapbook/kolya_03.html Loren Robb and Kolya - Bulletin]'''
*:A man tells of his loving relationship with a young native Arctic boy who he brought up in New Zealand.

*'''[http://youfoundme.org/mylife.html My Life - Youfoundme.org]'''
*:A very long testimony written by a person known to a contact of Newgon. "It was the end of that summer that I learned what real heartache felt like. Sex was never the dominating factor in my relationship with James. I wanted to fool around a lot more than he did but I just liked being with him. He knew so much about construction and getting things to work that it was like being at school all the time except it was fun. Like any kid who hears his dad tell the same joke all the time I got tired of hearing "plumbings easy boy, just remember shit flows down hill". What I really didn't want to hear was the day James told me we couldn't do the sex thing anymore. I don't recall his exact words but something to the effect "this just isn't right or this isn't normal". I was crushed. It (our friendship) seemed so normal and great to me that I didn't understand why he felt that way. My suffering didn't come from the hands of an abuser, my suffer came from the words of a man who feared for my wellbeing. I kept telling him I was okay with things and nothing needed to change. Change did come and even my begging wouldn't get him to monkey around with me. It happened once or twice after the big talk but it was never the same."

*'''"Keith" in O'Carroll, Tom (1980). ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case]'', pp. 83-84.'''
*:"As a boy he became sexually mature at age twelve-and-a-half. "It was like the world was beginning to make sense, to take on purpose and meaning. [...] I regard my meeting with Mr. S., then aged twenty-six, as a critical turning point in my love life. Until then, sex was fun, felt good and left me only moderately guilty. Once I approached Mr. S. (Yes, I approached him) with my thirteen-year-old impatience for intimacy, he told no one, responded positively to my shaky advances (didn't even laught at me!) and simply embraced me. [...] Here was a masculine adult man (happily married even), who was interested in doing with me what I was already finding exciting with my boy-friends. And through this relationship a new dimension was added to my experience which has not occurred to me before - tenderness, affection and love. (...) This affection was, in its way, just as satisfying as the ecstatic orgasms that punctuated our days and nights together. I regard this man, this relationship as a turning point because I was never the same after knowing him for two years - I was more in tune with myself after that...".

*'''[[Frits Bernard|Bernard, Frits]] (1972). ''Sex met kinderen'', pp. 75-76.'''
*:A 25 year old man tells of a relationship struck up with a gay man when he was eight. They started having sex when he was ten, something that he enjoyed. The relationship lasts until he is 18.

*'''''Paedophilia - What It Means To The Child'' by [[Frits Bernard]], printed in [http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/panfull.htm PAN 3] (pp. 15 - 17)'''
**"I was about 13 when I had my first paedophile experience. [...] The man who brought me into touch with homosexuality and whom I even loved physically was, and still is, one of my dearest friends. I remember what a wonderful feeling it was when he satisfied me for the first time. I was not troubled in the least by worries over having done 'perverted things', probably because I had no idea of what such things were. [...] The only trouble I have had over this was when I first told my fiancée about it."
**"When I was seven I had contact with a man who was especially nice to me. He used to take me to his attic, sit me on his lap and play with me sexually. I thought it was very nice and enjoyed it. I always looked forward to Wednesday afternoons, the days when we saw each other. This went on for a long time. Later I had many contacts with other men, but never with boys my own age. One day I went with a waiter to his house. I was very interested and excited. We had unusually satisfying sex together. I must have been about 14. Back home I was restless and went to see him the very next day on my own initiative. We had intercourse about twenty times in the following period. [...] Now, after a good life, I can see these early contacts as very positive to my development. I would not like to have missed them and I do not envy the people who never had these opportunities."
**"When I was about eight years old I got to know a man in the street who thought I played very nicely. He invited me out for a bicycle ride, and later to visit his home. [...] From him I received love, which actually I had never known (not, I mean, in the way I know it at present from my wife). [...] Later, when I was ten or eleven, we had sex with each other, something I always enjoyed."
**Several further accounts involving slightly older minors are available in the article.

*'''[[Frits Bernard|Bernard, Frits]] (1979). "[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/pan/htmfiles/pan3p13.htm Paedophilia: What it means to the child]" ''[[PAN]]'', November 1979.'''

:*A heterosexual male recalls at age 24: "I had my first sexual contact with an older man in Rotterdam... It was nothing more than each of us quickly masturbating each other, looking shyly around us. Once this corner was turned a lot of other experiences followed. I can't say much about them, just sex and nothing more. One of the reasons nothing lasted was that the men were dead scared of being trapped. The iniative always came from me. I used to wear my shortest and cutest shorts and stroll across the market squares and through the busiest streets of Rotterdam until I saw someone I thought was 'like that' and then I allowed myself to be 'seduced'. That went on until I was 17. [...] I have no regrets about this period. I am only sorry that I never had what I was really looking for: an older friend with whom I could enjoy not only sex but all kinds of things, someone who could teach me about everything."

:*An engaged, heterosexual male recalls at age 23: "I was about 13 when I had my first paedophile experience (...) The man who brought me into touch with homosexuality and whom I even loved physically was, and still is, one of my dearest friends. I remember what a wonderful feeling it was when he satisfied me for the first time." Despite this, the man makes it clear that he does not approve of pedophilic contact, as it happens today.

:*A heterosexual adult recalls at age 37: "I must have been 14 [or] 15 at the time of my first sexual encounter with a man of about 30. I enjoyed these experiences. (...) I am now married and have four children. People with this inclination should fit into society and our society should accept this as natural. But it will be a very long time before this happens. (...) My earlier contacts of this kind were so upsetting to my parents that, at the time, I always had the feeling that I was dong something wrong. Now I see it as part of a personal experience which I would not like to see removed from my life."

:*A gay man recalls at 67, the following contact with a 35-year-old man: "When I was 7, I had contact with a man who was especially nice to me. He used to take me to his attic, had me sit on his lap and we had sexual contact with each other. I really found it pleasant and enjoyed it. I was always looking forward to Wednesday afternoons, the days we saw each other. This went on for a long period of time. [...] Now, as a nearly 68-year-old man, who has had a good life, I regard these contacts I used to have as very positive for my development. I would not have wanted to miss them, and I do not envy people who have never not had these opportunities. [...] Later I had many contacts with other men, but never with boys my own age. One day I went with a waiter to his house. I was very interested and excited. We had unusually satisfying sex together. I must have been about 14. Back home I was restless and went to see him the very next day on my own initiative. We had intercourse about twenty times in the following period."

:*A straight man recalls at 25, the following relationship: "When I was about eight years old I got to know a man in the street who thought I played very nicely. He invited me out for a bicycle ride, and later to visit his home (...) Gradually, we got to know each other... and I came to realise that he was homosexual. This did not shock me; I just wanted to know more about it. (...) From him I received love, which actually I had never known (...) Later, when I was ten or eleven, we had sex with each other, some-thing I always enjoyed. That lasted until I was eighteen, when I started going steady with a girl. When I became engaged I was able to tell my future wife with an easy mind about my youthful experiences. She could appreciate the whole thing very well. [We have] an especially good marriage, an especially fine sexual relationship, and an especially dear little daughter."

*'''Björn, quoted in: Vogel, Wolf (1997) ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/rivas/boys_men/bjorn.htm Heimliche Liebe: Eros zwischen Knabe und Mann]'', Hamburg: Jahn & Ernst. Translator says the following: "includes the remarkable case of Björn and Jan, located in a major town in the North of Germany."'''
*:"When Björn (32) was a young boy, he met his adult friend Jan (45) and they still had a sexual relationship at the time of the interview. As a 10-year-old boy, Björn felt attracted to social worker Jan because of the latter's revolutionary ideas and Björn tried to provoke him with a lot of questions and remarks about sexuality. One day, when Björn was eleven and a half, they happened to meet near the town's riverbank. Björn tried to get Jan sexually interested in him and when they met at Jan's place he finally succeeded. Björn really wanted Jan to penetrate him, but Jan declined the offer and it took Björn a year to convince him that he was not afraid of getting physically hurt in the process. The boy really enjoyed this type of penetrative sexual contact and now that he's an adult, he's still doing it quite often with Jan. He remarks that if one wishes to speak of seduction in this relationship, it was him who was the seducing party. Their relationship has always stayed a secret for the people in their environment. Jan used to help Björn with the problems he was having with his parents, and also with his educational and professional progress."

*'''Mydans, Seth. "[http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/05/world/in-a-philippine-town-child-prostitution-despite-protests-is-a-way-of-life.html In a Philippine Town, Child Prostitution, Despite Protests, Is a Way of Life]", ''New York Times'', February 5, 1989.'''
*:"Drive into this green and quiet town [Pangsanjan, Philippines] 40 miles southeast of Manila and groups of men will run alongside your car, banging on the windows, offering a choice of the local attractions: A boat ride to the scenic waterfall or a child prostitute. (...) When Mrs. Zaide's group, the Council of Citizens for the Protection of Children, pasted up posters warning against prostitution, the citizens of Pagsanjan tore them down. Stones were thrown at the houses of council members. When the Immigration Commission a year ago arrested 22 foreigners who were engaged in prostitution rings, some parents, the recipients of their largesse, testified in their defense. (...) Estafania Aldaba-Lim, a former minister of social welfare who has studied the Pagsanjan situation, said local residents discovered the easy money in male prostitution when American filmmakers came to town to shoot scenes for "Apocalypse Now." "I suppose some gays with the crew fell in love with the young macho boatmen,'" she said, "and then it went to much younger boys, down to 9, 10, 11 years old, and the whole town got in on it." (...) But, Miss Zaide said child prostitution continues. One Swiss national, she said, married the sister of his 15-year-old male lover and has applied to return home not with his wife but with his new brother-in-law. "The family is proud of it," Miss Zaide said. It flaunts his gifts, which include one of the better residences in town. At school, according to another member of Miss Zaide's group, children proudly display the new clothes, pocket money and other gifts that they receive from their patrons, tempting other children to follow their example. One Third of Boys Are Involved. Miss Zaide estimated that one-third of the youngsters have taken part in the sex trade in this town of 22,000, where 65 percent of the population is below the age of 18. When teachers confront the parents of these children, she said, the parents ask them, "What can you give us in exchange? Can you pay for my child's schooling? Can you give him an allowance? Can you build a home for us?""

*'''[http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/zeffirelli-had-homosexual-experiences-at-catholic-school_1014084 Franco Zeffirelli] (Italian film director), quoted in: "Zeffirelli Had Homosexual Experiences At Catholic School", ''World Entertainment News Network'', 20 November 2006.'''
*:"Sexual abuse is putting it too strongly. There was no penetration. "I felt sorry for the poor man. If I had realised what he had in mind, I would probably have given him what he wanted. I thought the priest felt a special affection for me, he was always kissing me. "(Homosexual experiences) are not always bad for boys. I don't think they make you homosexual. Sexual choice is made for you early on in life anyway - if you like girls, you like girls."

*'''Neil, quoted in: Birkett, D. (1997). ''"[http://www.deabirkett.com/pages/journalism_film/film/monsters_with_human_faces.htm The Devil Amongst Us - accompanying article]", ''The Guardian'', September 17, 1997.'''
*:"During my research I met Neil, a gay man now aged 40, who enjoyed having sex with adult men from the age of nine. "It seems to be politically correct, even within the gay movement, to be anti-paedophile. But when I ask gay male friends when they first had sex they say, 'Oh, ten, 11, 12, with a bloke down the road who was 22.' He was probably a paedophile!""

*'''Dan, quoted in: Newberger, Eli H. (1999). ''Bringing Up a Boy''. Perseus Books.'''
*:This is a general guide for parents. From the section on gay adolescents comes this:
*:"In ninth grade, Dan began sexual activity with men, some in their twenties, others in their thirties or older. He meets many of them in gay clubs. He also feels confident initiating contact with strangers in public, in stores, for example. He is diligent about safe sex and careful not to make himself vulnerable to sexual exploitation by drinking too much, but he has a considerable number of sexual contacts during a year."

*'''Brian, in [http://www.nambla.org/mglad.html a letter to the ''NAMBLA Bulletin''], Vol. 12, No. 8, Pg. 15, October 1991.'''
*:"When I was 13 years old I had my first sexual experience with someone older: my adult camp counselor. [...] During my third and final year I began having sexual desires for him, wanted him to kiss me, and tried to give him several hints. While other boys were working their way towards medals and projects they could take home, my project was to climb in bed with this man. My chance finally came on a rainy night after all of us went to bed. I could not sleep and instead I went into his private quarters where he invited me to climb under the sheets. He finally took the chance and fondled me finally kissing then sucking me over and over again. It was the most exciting sexual experience I have ever had. The next day and for the final week of camp we reacted toward each other as if nothing had happened. I left camp never to see or hear from him again.
*:As a gay man in my early 30s I am not now attracted to children but to older men; perhaps thinking of my counselor. But my case is one to refute the charges that once molested as a child, a person grows up to be a molester of his own. I was not molested. I was loved and I feel I am better for it."

*'''Bill, in [http://www.nambla.org/five-ten.html a letter to the ''NAMBLA Bulletin''], Vol. 12, No. 8, Pg. 15, October 1991.'''
*:"I am a 24-year-old white male who really wishes to join your organization. I firmly believe in all you stand for. I myself was shunned by society's rules and a small community's norms of acceptable behaviors. I was 13 and met a really nice 45-year-old man who really made me feel special. He liked me for what I was, not something that I could become. Sure, sex was a part of our relationship, but that wasn't the only thing. We enjoyed each others' company, sharing our thoughts and ideas on different topics, and setting our goals.
*:Well, needless to say, my parents found out and prohibited me from seeing him anymore. They also made me file a criminal complaint on him. He went to trial and was sentenced to 5 - 10 years on a variety of charges in which I had no say.
*:I told the judge that I consented to our relationship and what went along with it. He said that I was too young to make a "mature" decision."

*'''[http://www.nambla.org/nyu1983.html Harry Hay] (gay rights campaigner), comments given at a public forum on February 22, 1983, at New York University'''
*:"Between thirteen and fourteen, I had begun to hear about the fact that there are men who sometimes like boys, and I want very much to know about these things. I'd heard about this from the men who worked in the fields the year before. They told me about them; they called them “fairies.” And of course they didn’t call the usual civilities. I didn’t tell them that I was listening to every word they said and storing it up for future use. I knew that I wouldn’t be able to do anything about it that summer, but the following summer, when I was fourteen, I was bound and determined that I was going to do something about that. [...]
*:The point is that I was perfectly capable of handling myself and knowing exactly what I wanted. But this year I knew that I wanted to find a man to tell me what I wanted to know. So, at fourteen, you realize, I'm a child molester. I'm a child, and I'm molesting an adult till I find out what I want to know. And I found him, and he was shocked. Then he discovered that, rather than being a man, as he suspected that I was from the way I looked — my callouses on my hands, and the way I handled myself, and my clothing — that I was only a fourteen-year-old kid, and if anybody found out about it he'd be in jail for life, or, at least in California twenty-three years in that period. [...]
*:So, again, as I said, my offering is not as a member of NAMBLA, but in memory of that fourteen-year-old boy who was handled by Matt so long ago. And in memorial to Matt, I offer you my love."

*'''Zimmerman, Ann (1994). "[http://www.dallasobserver.com/1994-11-17/news/tell-mama-why-you-cry-part-i/5 'Tell Mama Why You Cry' (Part I)]," ''Dallas Observer'', November 17.'''
*:"The tape of Tim's interview could not be located, but according to Black's notes, Tim had seen his father touch his sister on her private parts on several occasions. "He stated his father tickles Lima on her private parts and she likes it. When questioned further, Tim revealed his father also touches him on his private parts...at his house...Tim stated he doesn't mind his father doing this."

*'''"En me vriendje houdt van mij: 23 verhalen uit het leven gegrepen", edited by Ben Füss and Gorrit Goslinga (Eindhoven: Stichting Uitgeverij NVSH, 1981)'''
*:"We had just moved and that was how I met a nice man, as a 13-year-old. We talked a lot, in his room. He was very interested in art and possessed a lot of books with pictures of works of art and sculpture. I had little interest for this but did not want to hurt Dick's feelings. Only the pictures that showed nudity captured my interest. I also tried to hide this. [...]" This interest was noticed by Dick and it led to Dick briefly caressing the boy's genitals. Dick was very cautious and tried to end it immediately. The boy was very eager to have additional sexual experiences and finally persuaded Dick to allow him a visit. One thing led to another and the end result was a tender sexual relationship that lasted for about six years. After the war he re-established a life-long friendship with Dick, though without the sexual aspect. He was there when Dick died at age 83. He adds: "The value of this relationship is something I continue to cherish till this very day."

*'''[http://www.jungsforum.net/politik/messages/159581.htm Anonymous, in Berliner Zeitung (Translation)]'''
*:"Being 52 now, I got a relationship with a man at the age of 8-9 of whom I was told later that he was a paedophile. The relationship went on until I was about 14 years old and we were lucky that it remained undiscovered and free of police enquiries. Even today, so many years later, I remember my big friend with gratitude, as he made my coming out as a gay person later on – and many other things in my life - a lot easier for me. Since then, I have met numerous people who also had [consensual] sexual relationships with adults as children and teenagers and who are not ashamed of this. It is easy to understand why such people never get in touch with abuse counseling agencies, because they really don't need such help. That's how such centres get a completely one-sided view of so-called victims of abuse.".

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Shane-mod.htm Shane] on his website'''
*:A 14-year-old gay boy in Australia says, “I have one really good adult friend that knows about my sexuality, … Steve has never tried anything sexual with me, although I often wish he would.”

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932399.htm Under My House . Tent Sleeping . Neighbors Bedroom] by Linca on BoyChat, July 2005.'''
*:A man recounts his first experiences of sex, including with an adult neighbor at 14: "[He] did with me ... what he had been wanting to do with me since I was 8 years old. We are friends to this day."

*'''Two posts by hyacinth on BoyChat: [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/BC-663921.htm May 2002] [1] and [http://www.boychat.org/messages/932570.htm July 2005] [2]'''
*:A man describes his childhood sexual experiences with adults. The first was anal sex with a benedictine monk at 14 years old: “I was't stupid, at 14 I knew my way around … He was very nice and very gentle, and I liked him alot.” [1] Next was a relationship that lasted for a year and a half with a man and his two sons. [2]

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Benjamin-LettersOfBoy.htm Letters of a Loving Boy--Excerpted letters and diaries of boys], edited by Jarod Benjamin, 1997.'''
*:A 14-year-old boy wrote a series of love letters, unsuccessfully courting an adult friend for a more intimate relationship.

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Mogenic-LikeGreece.htm Just Like Greece? — Gay Teen Dates Septuagenarian], an interview of "John" by Brandon K. Thorp in ''Mogenic'', June 2006.'''
*:A 22-year-old man talks about the 67-year-old man he met at the museum where they were both volunteering when he was 13. A friendship emerged based on unusually common interests for such a pair. The relationship evolved into mentoring and eventually romance, which became sexual two years later. They remained occasionally intimate for five years while the teenager also began to explore relationships with his age peers. Looking back on the man’s death when he was 20, he says, “He enhanced the quality of my youth, and his influence will likely enhance the quality of my entire adult life. And I enhanced his old age. We both got something out of it.”

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Aaron/index.htm Aaron], on his website'''
*:A 15-year-old boy talks about his adult lover on his website.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20110520030140/http://nambla.org/boys.htm Boys Speak Out on Man/Boy Love], NAMBLA, 1981.'''
*:NAMBLA published a book with first-person accounts of 29 boys about their relationships with older men. Titles include ''The Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me'' by Greg, 16, ''It Shouldn’t Be a Crime to Make Love'' by Bryan, 12, ''If It Wasn’t for Mark I’d Probably Be Dead Today'' by Carl, 14, ''I Need My Lovers'' by Tyrone, 16, and ''It Was Me Who Started It'' by Frank, 15.

*'''The perspective of a loving boy in [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Benjamin-BoysAndBoylovers.htm On Boys and Boylovers] by Jarod Benjamin, 1997.'''
*:Jarod Benjamin’s 1997 study of male-male pedophilia includes a section that reports on pedophile relationships from the point of view of boys in them. Reference is also made to 620 quotes of boys in Edward Brongersma’s [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557410038 Loving Boys].

*'''"[http://www.thinkandask.com/2006/042106-john.html Baseball, Boys, One Man on Illegal Love]", ''Think & Ask'', April 2006.'''
*:A boy happily participates in a sexual and emotional relationship with an older man beginning at age 12. "Jesse is less than half John's age and turned 15-years-old in April, but the boy is not his son. Jesse "is my lover," John said, "but the feelings are mutual, this is a consensual relationship." John met Jesse (not his real name) when the boy was homeless three years ago. [...] In Jesse's own words, "John knows me, he's here inside my head already, I mean all along. He is my dad, boyfriend, best friend, brother, all in one. He's great," he grins as he chats with a friend on the office computer. [...] "I brought it up and told him how I felt and offered to take care of him. That is when he said he was in love with me and never wanted to leave," John said."

*'''George, quoted in: Drew, D. and Drake, J. (1969). ''[https://www.greek-love.com/modern-europe/italy/war-time-naples-pederasty-initiation Boys For Sale].'''
*:NewgonWiki: A long and fascinating account of a man who was introduced to working boys during the second war. After returning, he then develops a relationship with a highly-sexed 11 year old nephew and they enjoy each others attentions well into his teens. The relationship aids, or does not impair the boy's adjustment as an adult.

*'''David, quoted in: Brongersma, Edward (1992). ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without Victims]''. Global Academic Publishers, Amsterdam.'''
*:Gay sex at 13 with a man in his mid-30s. "[O]ne day he started telling me about all the boys he'd had, and.., we finally ended up in the next room. We had a good time. I actually thought it was a little funny; at one point I even started to laugh. I don't know why -- I just had this weird need to laugh. [...] It was all so new. It was exciting. [...] (Interviewer: It [your relationship] all sounds very rosy...) Yes, it's really, really great."

*'''Unnamed 13/14-year-old boy, quoted in: "[http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/vigilance-vital-to-keeping-vile-paedophiles-at-bay-57221.html Vigilance vital to keeping vile paedophiles at bay]", ''Irish Independent'', 28 February 2007.'''
*:Claims that he consented, but others saw it very differently. "The young lad in question, who was 13 when his contact with these paedophiles began, claims that the sexual relationships he had with them were all consensual. In other words, he is stating that he was not raped, and that, to his mind at least, there was no abuse."

*'''logicalreality.com (defunct rational-humanist website) webmaster Pat Kelly on his forum, around 2006'''
*:Aged 5, Kelly helped a boy, 17, masturbate; was grateful for his invitation. He claims to have enjoyed hiding in a garage and masturbating the other boy, much like a schoolboy would enjoy being allowed into the staff room - the world of adults, with which he was so fascinated.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100324234047/http://www.martijn.org/info/OK41_EN_1.html Andre and Dennis], quoted in MARTIJN's OK Magazine'''
*:Educationalist on his relationship with a primary schoolboy. "Actually, it really lasted quite a while before the sexual side of our relationship started to take shape; I did not dare begin with this so soon. André does feel a bit guilty towards Dennis' mother that he never brought up the sexuality. He asks himself if she may not have figured out after all, because every now and then she has made remarks that could point to that. She does know that Dennis and André have a very physical contact with each other and kiss each other. Basically, he would like to talk about it, but, understandably, this is not easy. On being asked, Dennis had a clear opinion: 'She does not need to know!'"

*'''"[http://web.archive.org/web/20100828081631/http://www.martijn.org/page.php?id=1171983 11-year-old faggot]", quoted in: "Column 1: The Unicorn", ''Boys Speak Out on Man/Boy Love'' (fourth edition), July 1996. Previously published in NAMBLA Bulletin vol. 4 no. 10, December 1983.'''
*:"My first statement is that I want to dispel the image that a child is an ''innocent little puppy dog''. Children have plenty of knowledge about life, the universe and everything. But adults tend not to listen to their children. This ''innocent puppy'' syndrome represses the child's social, sexual, political, economical, and emotional desires. Children are not taken seriously and are expected to conform to a society in which they can't question its validity. This has got to stop! [...] A child is a sexual being. Therefore, children should have the right to explore any aspect of sexuality they desire to engage in. Why do parents, politicians, and police (the 3 p's) feed guilt into children that are sexually active? [...] Many people have been destroyed because of intergenerational relationships, people who could offer the world a lot if they had just not been persecuted for being different. Burning witches is a pastime which is just regaining popularity in the States."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/BC-146796.htm My Story: A story of a boy] by Elf on BoyChat, October 1998.'''
*:A man in his mid-20s tells his story. When he was nine or ten years old, he responded willingly to the seduction of a 16- or 17-year-old neighbor boy. They had a passionate love affair for over a year until they were discovered and his father beat him savagely. The older boy's family disappeared from town. This man wrote of that affair as the best thing that ever happened to him and attributed his deep problems at the time of writing to the brutal way it was torn away from him.

*'''"[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Spike/xaboutme.htm Spike]" on his website'''
*:A 15-year-old boy writes about his adult lover: "When I was 10, I found myself a mentor, a wonderful old man that needed me as much as I needed him. ... J has been the best thing that could ever have happened to me. Everything I am today I owe to J. He and Mom are both educated people who believe that I must prepare myself for adulthood by learning how to learn, how to think for myself, and how to believe in myself ... Mom sees the results of my association with J, and she could not be more pleased."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Hoby-mod.htm Hoby] on his website'''
*:A boy proclaims his interest in adult men and says, "You should be able to love whoever you want when you want and as long as you both happy it dont matter what anyone else thinks."

*'''''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Arlekin/complain-mod.htm My Complaints]'' by David Alejandro, December 1996, on his website.'''
*:A 13-year-old boy makes an impassioned plea for sexual freedom: "I want to love and be loved by whom I want. For the last two years I have an older friend. I am not gay, I like girls. He doesn't, but we understand each other very well. It is nobody's business what we do or don’t do. ... Stop protecting me, please!" (Note: His site history page indicated that he was 13 when he posted this page and 15½ in June 1999. The English index pages said that he lived in the "Land of the Incas.")

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Stefan/index.htm Stefan] on his web page'''
*:A 12-year-old in Holland says, "I will tell you about my BEST friend. He’s 28 and works at home. I love him the most in the world and he loves me. He says I'm the cutest boy in the world."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20101128082130/http://www.scottohara.com/obit.htm Scott O'Hara], quoted in his obituary at the Spirit of Stonewall Press Conference, New York City, June 24, 1994.'''
*:The publisher of Steam magazine says, "When I was 12 and 13 years old I would have joined NAMBLA in a minute, because I knew I was gay and I wanted to go out and get laid, not just read The Gay Mystique all my life; I needed personal contact."

*'''Ik Wilde Meer! ("[http://web.archive.org/web/20100828071543/http://www.martijn.org/info/Martijn/martijn02.pdf I Want More!]") in Martijn (PDF, 6 Mb), December 1980, page 16-18, in Dutch.'''
*:A married man reports on his 6-year-long relationship with a man who showed him erotic art and masturbated him. The relationship later turned platonic and the younger man was at the older's deathbed 37 years later.

*'''[http://www.boylover.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/194.html tribute to frank] by mick15 on BoyLover.net, December 7, 2005.'''
*:A teenaged boy describes his loving, sexual relationship with his soccer mentor, who had recently died.

*'''I want to speak out!!!!!!!! by "15 yr old boy" on BoyChat, September 2000.'''
*:A 15-year-old boy writes about his adult lover: "He is the best thing that has ever happened to me. ... I wish this world would just open its eyes and see that relationships like this are healthy and good for boys my age—but yes only if the boy wants the relationship."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Adam-mod.htm There is Magic Out There] by Joshua Adam on his website.'''
*:A 13-year-old in the 10th grade writes about the emotional support he gets from his older friend, Angel, who is helping him overcome the hatred cast upon him by his family and school for liking other boys. Angel and Adam have never met in person and do not plan to do so. Their relationship is entirely nonsexual, although it is definitely one of love and mentorship.

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932397.htm count me IN !!! :))] by siao on BoyChat, July 2005. '''
*:A man recounts his first experience of sex with an adult at seven years old: “suddenly fun was "in" … gosh, what was that twirling feeling which went all thru me ???” He also speaks of such encounters with many other men, saying, “NOT A SINGLE ONE EVER ABUSED ME ! I was free to say 'YES!!!!' and also knew how to say 'no' if there were ever anything I might not want.”

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932440.htm A long and varied career by Ambar] on BoyChat, July 2005.'''
*:A man recounts his earliest sexual experiences, including with his best friend’s father at eight years old: “He became my second very, very, very best friend and so began a wonderful, loving relationship. I still adore that man :-)”

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]

[[fr:Témoignages: Adulte mâle avec mineur mâle]]

Testimony: Adult Male with Minor Male

2026-08-26T18:16:27Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}

*The late '''Scotty Bowers''', famously known "Hollywood's Pimp", was in fact a highly complex individual - having experienced real suffering as a serviceman. He also had a considerable influence on the sexual revolution after he returned, and was a key contact of [[Alfred Kinsey]]. His sexual experiences as a hustler in his youth, however, he does not regret.
::"I had a very nice childhood; a good childhood. The neighbour, who had two kids - his wife was a sweetheart and he was too, I couldn't think of anything but nice things to say about them [...] just because he wanted to cuddle me/hold me/jack me [off], I don't see anything wrong with that [...] abused? absolutely not; this is bullshit, man! There's no such thing as someone ruining your life when they suck your cock [...] even as a little kid, I saw nothing wrong with that [...] we were unloading the trailer and [the priest], I could tell by the look in his eye that he wanted me [...] then he proceeded to fix me up with friends, and through him, I would meet other priests and go to their church. Within weeks, I had seen approximately 25-30 priests. They paid me off in change out of the collection box (laughter) [...] everybody knew me downtown [as he describes his side hustles] I was doing my little thing all by myself. [...] I did what I did because I knew what I was doing and I wanted to do it"

*'''[https://news.yahoo.com/george-takei-pedophilia-tape-posted-195359153.html George Takei]''' at age 13 or 14 (accounts vary) with a 19 year old.
::Takei is well known for positively recalling this early experience on a number of occasions. See, for example, [https://fstube.net/w/k4Q6ydNJBkbPAqGACEQszm this] video.

*'''[https://web.archive.org/web/20221225024442/https://makinggayhistory.com/podcast/craig-rodwell/ Craig Rodwell] by Eric Marcus, "Making Gay History", November 2022 (Recorded 1989)'''.
::Craig Rodwell was one of the most consequential gay activists of the 20th century. Rodwell is known for participating in the Stonewall riots, his work in the Mattachine Society, founding the [[Oscar Wilde]] Memorial Bookshop, proposing the first annual pride march, and dating Harvey Milk in the early 1960s.
::From 13 to 14 years old, Rodwell had sex with “hundreds of men” in Chicago. He would go cruising outside of gay bars to meet these men. Speaking of the experience, he said “This is what I lived for, literally. And that’s all I thought about all day long, just so I could get downtown and go cruising. Uh, it was, oh, it was just, I get thrilled now even thinking about it, those, those, those times. It had a great sense of freedom about it and adventure and, oh, I met all kinds of guys—Air Force guys, cops, you name it. I met all kinds of guys during high school”. When Rodwell was 14, he was charged and convicted by the Chicago police for the crime of juvenile delinquency when he was caught walking home after having sex with a man in his thirties. He was ultimately sentenced to two years of probation. His lover was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment for "crimes against nature".

*'''[http://salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2002/07/22/coming_of_age/ Minor report] by David Tuller in Salon.com, July 22, 2002.'''
**An aircraft maintenance worker describes his first experience at thirteen with a man of about 30 who had hired him to do yard work. After inviting him inside and showing him pictures of men wrestling, the man “started rubbing my crotch, and I was both nervous and really excited by it.” He went on to seek out other significantly older men. “I never felt used. I really wanted it, and except for the first time I always felt like the aggressor.”
**Noted gay novelist [[Edmund White]] talks about picking up men at Chicago beaches and public restrooms from the age of 13 or 14. “I was very oversexed, absolutely driven wild by desire. ... The first one was a handsome architect, who actually had children older than me. I was absolutely fascinated by him, and I seduced him. I followed him to his car, walked right up to him and started talking to him. My mother was away and I said, ‘Come back to my apartment.’ And it was terrific.”
** In an essay about sex between adolescents and adults, David Tuller relates his own desire as a 15-year-old "tormented homosexual wannabe." Upon seeing the movie Summer of '42, in which a young widow "pulls Hermie into her arms and, in her grief, into her bed," he says, "I cried while I watched, ... because I so yearned for the tender moments that Hermie found."
**A gay health care professional in his 50s discusses how the relationship he pursued with a family friend in his early 20s helped him learn at the age of fifteen that men could care for each other. "It was clear that it certainly felt good to both of us. ... In some way it was a real lifesaver, because it made me feel that love and affection and closeness and sex would be possible in my life. ... when we were together, it was like a little oasis where we could be ourselves."
** A businessman in Denver recounts his two-year relationship, from age fifteen, with his 29-year-old boss at the restaurant where he worked. "It was frightening and invigorating and I felt clumsy and awkward. But he was playful and fun and very gentle. I never felt coerced. As foreign as it was to me I was very open to it. Afterwards, I felt good, like I'd experienced something I'd wanted to for a long time." Speaking of how it affected his life at the time, he says, "I wasn't an awkward, out-of-place kid anymore. I felt appreciated for being gay, instead of being an outcast and made fun of. Suddenly I had this new self-confidence. I didn't have to hate myself for being gay."

*'''R. Andrew Nilsen. (1992). Intergenerational Intimacy, in Empathy, Volume 3, Number 1, pp. 95-97.'''<ref>[[:File:Intergenerational Intimacy by Andrew Nilsen.pdf|Nilsen: Intergenerational Intimacy (internal link)]]</ref>
:*Reporting on interviews conducted by the author, Nilsen wrote:
::"A boy of 8 had a sexual relationship with an adult man of 42. This boy said, "He treats me great; I like it a lot. He's nicer to me than my own father." (p. 95).
:*Interview with Ramón, age 8: "I have only had sex with a guy this year. He's 35 and is my Sunday School Teacher. He likes for me to be in his house and we go to bed a lot. He teaches me about sex and that makes me glad because then I know he likes it and I know what to do..." (p. 96).
:*A 14-year old boy responds: "My male friend is a real man. My daddy, a cop, plays at being a man but a real man doesn't beat his kid. My man friend let's me have sex with him whenever I want and sex with my girlfriend when I want that." (p. 95).
:*"At a New York City apartment some years ago I observed and interviewed a 17-year old boy French kissing and fellating his 37-year old lover. When I asked why he was doing that he just said "Because I want to." Simple question and simple answer." (p. 96).

*'''Hardi in [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-018-9506-6 Mulya (2018) - Contesting the Dominant Discourse of Child Sexual Abuse: Sexual Subjects, Agency, and Ethics]
*:"It all started when I was 5 years old. I already experienced sexual harrassment, but I just enjoyed it. At that time my mom worked in a rural town. One day I was invited by a young guy in that neighbourhood. He asked me to hold his penis. I did what he said till his fluid came out. I didn’t know what fluid it was, but I just enjoyed it. This happened repeatedly, including my friends at the same age with me asked me to do that too.Then my family moved to another city. There, I experienced the same thing. Young men there invited me to do the same, and I just enjoyed it. I was also asked to oral his penis and I did it. I did all those things but I have not yet experienced the peak. Until one day I also can feel how pleasurable it was when that white fuid came out. My intermediate and high schools were the time when I really enjoyed such activities. Almost every day I masturbated and did same-sex activities like that. Thanks to God after high school, uni, and until now I am not bound to those sins like I was. It’s all because of my struggles with God so that I can leave all those sinful deeds. [...] As far as I remember, I was playing around the neighbourhood, then a young guy invited me, and I don’t know why, I just followed him. At that time I was only 5 years old, if I’m not mistaken. My feeling now? Just ordinary. I remember at that time I just enjoyed it without knowing what I was doing. I never hated those guys. I don’t know where they are now, and I don’t care. I totally forget it".

*'''Keith Vacha, ''Quiet Fire: Memoirs of Older Gay Men'', edited by Cassie Damewood (Trumansburg, New York: The Crossing Press, 1985).'''
*:[Ed] From 1978-1984, gay writer Keith Vacha conducted interviews with gay-identifying men, mostly in California and Arizona, who were at least 55 years old. Taken from over 100 taped interviews of 2-10 hours, ''Quiet Fire'' presents 17 stories of gay men from the pre-[[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|stonewall]] generation. In his summary, Vacha claims to have mixed real names and pseudonyms, and notes "a high degree of inter-generational relationships among the men I met" (p. 217). Of particular interest to this article is '''Bob Basker''' (Born September 30, 1918 in East Harlem, New York City. Died April 6, 2001) - Interviewed by Keith Vacha at age 65. The youngest of 5 sons, Basker participated in early black civil rights/desegregation and homophile activism. Basker hired a black man and refused to fire him after his superior insisted black workers went against company policy, costing him his job. With his then wife Greta, Basker "became the nominee purchasers to obtain a home for a black couple in Skokie (Illinois), Bob and Mary Smythe" (p. 54). He explains: "All hell broke loose. Our house was firebombed, we had unending obscene phone calls and death threats, and all our bank loans were cancelled" (Ibid). Basker turned to gay issues, and in 1965 became founding president of "Mattachine Midwest," the first Mattachine Society in Chicago. He also "helped to start the [Miami] Gay Activist Alliance in 1971" (p. 55) and became the Executive Director of Florida's Dade County Coalition for the Humanistic Rights of Gays (p. 56). He said the following about his young sex-life:

::"When I began selling newspapers at night, between the ages of eleven and fifteen, I was exposed to a lot of sex in [subway station] tearooms. [...] You'd meet people having sex with each other, not always, but often all through the night. Sometimes you'd walk in and they were in the midst of having some kind of sex and they'd look up and say, "Oh, it's only a kid," and go right back to whatever they were doing. I was serviced regularly and once in a while I would do the servicing. I met some really nice people who were afraid of being involved with a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen-year-old kid but I did manage to go home with some of them. I was generally the aggressor" (p. 46).

::"I got to learn something about classical music, ballet, and opera. I am the only "cultured" one in the family [...] and I think it's all because of my association with gay life, when these older men took me home with them. [...] I used to cruise the back of the Metropolitan Opera constantly [...] in order to meet these men and go home with them. It was never a question of me taking money. It was just a matter of going to a nice man's home" (pp. 46-47).

::"I used to hang around the parks in New York City [...] a lot of cruising. Sometimes in the movies I'd be picked up by older men, even before I was old enough to have climaxes, and we'd go somewhere and I'd jerk them off. I was fascinated watching them have a climax before I could have one. I'd look at that stuff and wonder, "When is it gonna happen to me?" (p. 47).

::"I had sex with different people three to four times a week, starting at the age of fourteen. [...] [T]hree times a week, fifty weeks a year, that's at least a hundred and fifty partners. Over a period of twenty years, three thousand partners. That creates a tremendous amount of sophisticated sex" (p. 48).

::'''Al Hoskins''' - Small business owner in Berkeley, California, was interviewed in his 60s:

::"When I was eleven I went over to the bus depot to the men's room. So many men [...] There was a guy there at the other end of the place who was sort of masturbating. I immediately got an erection which prompted him to walk over to me and start feeling me. Well, that of course thrilled me to no end. [...] My mother thought he was the nicest person. I used to visit him every time I went to the old Hippodrome Theatre." (p. 145).

* '''Jonathan Dollimore''' (born 1948) - Relationship from ages 14-15 with Tony, an adult family friend who was having sex with both him and his mother around the same time. British academic who pioneered [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0091.xml cultural materialism] as a practice for intepreting texts. Co-founder of the ''Centre for the Study of Sexual Dissidence'' at the University of Sussex, Dollimore's work has been claimed to be of "preeminent importance to English studies for the last forty years" and to have "revolutionized literary studies by combining a dedication to close textual analysis with an examination of the social and political contexts within which texts are produced and received" (Marlow, [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0089.xml 2020]). Influential for critical gender studies and later queer theory, his writing featured in ''The Lesbian and Gay Studies Reader'' ([https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Lesbian_and_Gay_Studies_Reader.html?id=OmLrFXy3UoQC&redir_esc=y 1993]) alongside [[Gayle Rubin]], David Halperin, and other pioneering queer academics who have discussed intergenerational sexuality.

::''[http://library.lol/main/2165BB190230E4500117E36A873F72E2 '''Desire: A Memoir''']'' '''(1st edition, 2017: Bloomsbury Academic Press), pp. 1-5.'''

::"Tony was an interesting man, ex-RAF, nomadic, far more knowledgeable than any other adult I’d encountered, including all of my school teachers, and also seemingly genuinely interested in teaching me things – as well as having sex with me. It was under his influence that I started to read thoughtfully for the first time. He introduced me to writers like Kipling, Somerset Maugham, Graham Greene, Thomas Hardy and T. S. Eliot.

::The cultural influence that Tony exerted on me would now be construed as ‘grooming’; and maybe it was, but it was also what made me want to learn to write. I did experience it as a desire, perhaps because it was so closely related to my sexual encounters with him, which weren’t demanding or complicated, and mainly consisted in him sympathetically helping me to orgasm. I liked that well enough to sometimes lie awake at night when he was staying with us, hoping he might come to my room to do it again."

::"I didn't feel personally betrayed by Tony's attempted seduction of my mother; nor have I ever felt damaged by the sex he and I had together. Of course, I realized that, at the very least, he was betraying my parent's trust in having sex with me, but, at the same time, that, too, was attractive to this adolescent." (pp. 1-2, 2017, 1st edn).

::[Newgon: The 2nd edition to this book ([https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Desire/b7EjEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0 2021]) was endorsed by famous gay author [[Edmund White]], who has spoken positively of his own age-gap sex during youth. In this edition, Dollimore thinks back to his earliest sensual/sexual experience at "3 or 4 years old," concluding:

::"I am still unsure whether Freudians are right in their insistence on the sexuality of the child, but I do know that the assumed innocence of the child is usually in the eye of the adult beholder" (p. 5, 2021).]

*'''[[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [http://library.lol/main/4FB01D8582CB462BF79D0CF28A43BF00 Unspeakable: A Life Beyond Sexual Morality] (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2020).'''
::Eric Wolton - London sex worker picked up by once-famous gay/pederast (pan-sexual) author [[Norman Douglas]] at the age of 12, whose parents granted permission for him to travel with Douglas for a walking tour of Italy. With Wolton recalling the experience positively, Cleves writes:

<blockquote>
A decade after they first met, [...] Wolton refused to disavow his childhood sexual relationship with Douglas, writing:
<blockquote>
''They were happy times [...] I have no evil thoughts about them although I am different today than I was then. You were my tin god and even now you are. I do really love you [...] I want you to understand Doug that you are more to me than ever you were. The difference is now that I am old enough to realise it.''
</blockquote>
As an adult, Wolton pursued sexual encounters with women. He was ‘different’ than he had been as a boy, but he felt positively about his youthful sexual encounters with Douglas nonetheless [...] neither the letters nor the actions of Douglas’s long-term child sexual partners indicate that they regarded their relationships with him through the framework of trauma (p. 54)
</blockquote>

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-072.htm Letter from John] in HFP Mailbag and [http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/13023005/ Sexual Abuse from a Victim] by John Tate, December 7, 2004.'''
*:A 17-year-old reports on the anguish in his life stemming from sexual activity with his grandfather from age seven and attributes the worst aspects to society’s attitudes about it: “I think if this sort of thing was tolerated I would not have felt so fucking alienated, so hated, as a child, I would have not been an outcast.”

*'''Denizet-Lewis, Benoit. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20120408053610/http://www.bostonmagazine.com/articles/boy_crazy/ Boy Crazy]", ''Boston Magazine'', May 2001'''
**Famous poet [[Allen Ginsberg]] commented on the 1977 pedophilia scandal in Revere, Massachusetts, "I had sex when I was 8 with a man in the back of my grandfather’s candy store in Revere, and I turned out okay."
**Best-selling Canadian author [[James Dubro]] was 14 in 1961 when he started having sex with a 22-year-old college student who remains his friend 40 years later.

*'''Author [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1588180395 Kirk Read]'''
*: In his 2001 book, How I Learned to Snap, Kirk Read tells of his sexual experiences with adults starting at age 13, which he says saved his life. "Intergenerational sex saved my life", "American culture's only frame of reference for sex with minors is abuse. I don't deny that abuse occurs, but this should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. A blanket approach that criminalizes all sex between adults and minors undermines the fact that for many gay teenagers, sex with an adult can be a beautiful, life-changing experience. It was for me", "I sought out sex with older men time and time again as a teenager. I had fumbling sexual encounters with other kids as a preadolescent, but they always left me unsatisfied. None of us knew what we were doing, and our shame and fear overwhelmed any joy of discovery" (pp. 57-59) [http://web.archive.org/web/20110520025428/http://nambla.org/snap.htm Reviewed] by NAMBLA.

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/johnny.htm Johnny], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Maternally approved gay sex at 12. "(Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) Tss ... There aren't any. [...except] to explain that to my family, or to keep his orientation hidden from them."

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/peter.htm Peter], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Happy with pedophile contacts from an early age (around ten). "(Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) I don't have any."

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/stephan.htm Stephan], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Descriptive account of yet another acceptable relationship, beginning at age 11. "Ferdinand really picked me up in a terrific way. I have learned lots from him, I've had many experiences and I've done lots of things with Ferdinand. I have learned something about human nature from Ferdinand. And other important things in society, responsibility, how to go about with money. I still don't do that very well, you know, it just didn't stick with me. But, you know, that sort of thing. The important things in life. Before Ferdinand I didn't know about any of these things and through him I have discovered them. Also, I always say, "I didn't have a childhood until I met Ferdinand. Then I received my childhood." And that is really how it was because before that I had so many problems. [...] (Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) Not one! That is very easy to say. Not one."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/host/sandfort_87/Appendix.htm Thijs and Joop], quoted in: Sandfort, Theo (1987). ''Boys on Their Contacts with Men'', Elmhurst, NY: Global Academic Publishers.'''
*:Befriended by a boylover at nine, and enjoying sex. "(Interviewer: What do you find the unpleasant aspects of sex with Joop?) There aren't any. I don't know of any, at least. [...] (Interviewer: Can you say who starts it, when you have sex?) Either of us. Sometimes me, yeah, mostly me. But he, too, real often. [...] (Interviewer: What do you think your mother would feel about your having sex with Joop?) I guess she'd think it was dirty. She'd think a man doing that with a child wasn't normal, that you just shouldn't do it. That's what she'd say. (Interviewer: And how do you feel about her thinking that way?) Rotten stupid! Although I wouldn't tell her it was rotten stupid. I mean, what business is it of hers? It's my business what I do. [...] (Interviewer: How do you feel about your having sex with Joop?) It's just really nice. (Interviewer: It's no problem for you?) It's just like a man going to bed with a woman--I think it's exactly the same: nice. And the feelings and so on they have, I have too."

*'''Interviewee, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality]''.'''
*:"My first homosexual experience came at the age of five or six, when I would play with this boy who was at that time about sixteen. He would ask me if I wanted to go into his house for something to eat, like some cookies or something. Of course I would go. Next he would ask me if I would go into the bedroom with him. Upon entering the bedroom, he would undress and ask me to do the same. I would, probably out of fright. I distinctly remember his body being very hairy, so perhaps I underestimated his age. Anyway, after undressing, he would tell me to bend over and then he would insert his erect penis into my anal region and start thrusting back and forth. He would then stimulate my penis and want me to do the same to him. We also masturbated each other, with him reaching orgasm and myself only being stimulated. I also spent some time in oral-genital contact. I did find the whole experience quite pleasing and continued to engage in these activities for a week or two. Then, and I don't recall why, we suddenly stopped doing it completely."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/library_2/rind/rind_gay_boys_app.htm Bruce Rind, quoting accounts from Savin-Williams (1997).]'''
*:[B: 13, M: 22] "Subject and adult brother often massaged each other. "This time, however, I got a little hard and then he noted I had grown so much since he last saw me naked. He asked me jokingly if he could suck my dick. I said 'yes' so we got off on each other. He did me and then I did him. He came all over me but I did not. This lasted a month until he headed back to work. I do miss him as a friend and a brother. Was nothing romantic." Subject added, "I liked it, ... felt good. I wanted to do it again and again. I already knew my brother was gay and that I was attracted to men so this did not prove or disprove that I was gay."
*:[B: 15, M: 27] "[It was with] the mailman, honest to God! On and off for two years. The first time was when I came to the door to get a special delivery package in my sheer designer underwear, from American Male. I was changing to go back to school. He sprouted a boner, I got hard, he grabbed mine, I grabbed his, and we were off and running. Every day I'd come home for lunch; my mother worked. I had to be quick so he'd not get docked for late deliveries. He had a real thing for redheads like me. He was very forward, connected with me, and told me how hot I was. Talked about our backgrounds. It ended when he suddenly got transferred and contact became difficult. We visited each other and had sex, but it was hard and we agreed mutually because of the distance that it was better that we be friends and not lovers" (p. 172).
*:[B: 12, M: 22] It lasted 9 months with his science teacher. "It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren't home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn't a teacher at my school no more" (p. 163). "
*:[B: 12, M: 35] The man was a family friend; the sex was mutually initiated, oral, off and on for 10 years (a couple of times per month), and "physically great." It confused the subject that the man was married, yet was willing to have sex with him. "Eventually I fell in love with him; knew I was gay but did not broadcast this; I was curious because of the age difference. Mutual oral sex happened after he fondled me; it was the first orgasm I ever had."
*:[B: 13, M: 38] "Family friend. I initiated on a camping trip; we were in same tent at state park; oral sex to orgasm for both of us; several times during the night; incredibly erotic, tremendous release, very pleasurable. Not real close; didn't enjoy kissing. Afterwards scary because I enjoyed it so much. Not wanting to be near him on the trip because afraid others would notice. Once per month for the next 4 years that I initiated; never talked about it; sex was all it was. Wished I was straight so the attractions would go away, because the sexual gratification was so strong."
*:[B: 14, M: 26] "It was with a stranger; he initiated it; it involved oral and mutual masturbation, we did it 10 more times. I was excited, was loved and in love, got affection, but was not prepared for sex. It was not so l much that I wanted his affection; I was attracted to him. This relationship lasted a week then three months later we met again and we were sexual."

*'''[[Bruce Rind]] - “The Problem with Consensus Morality”, in [https://sci-hub.wf/10.1023/a:1020603214218 Peer Commentaries on Green (2002) and Schmidt (2002)]. ''Archives of Sexual Behavior,'' Vol. 31, No. 6, December 2002.'''

::"These are based on a sampling of interviews I recently conducted on individuals who learned about me from publicity surrounding my publications and contacted me to tell their stories. These cases, involving five men who had sex as boys around age 10 with men, dispute Schmidt’s claim that there can never be sexual consensus between prepubescents and adults. The cases are cross-national, coming from Australia, Canada, England, France, and the United States. The first three men are homosexual and the last two are heterosexual. All names have been altered to preserve confidentiality.

:*Case 1. Nathan, a 45-year-old Brit, began being intensely curious about adult male genitalia when he was 8. At this age, in attempt to satisfy this curiosity, he surreptitiously went into the room of his household’s sleeping man servant and fondled him under his bed covers. By age 10, his curiosity had turned into sexual arousal. He unsuccessfully tried to solicit sex from men in locker rooms. At age 11, he met a neighbor man, whom he worked on over many visits in attempt to initiate sex. Eventually, he succeeded. In his many repeats with the man over the next 2 years, Nathan reported that he was the “conductor” - he controlled the sexual interactions. While still a boy, he had several other sexual relations with men, all of which he viewed as very positive. He thinks the sex helped his sexual self-confidence: as he matured, he knew exactly what he wanted in sex, while his peers were still searching.

:*Case 2. James, a 23-year-old Canadian, first felt sexually aroused by other males at age 6 and had his first sex at 8 with a peer. At 11, he befriended a neighbor man, towhom he gave many signals, hoping for sex to occur. Eventually, it did, which made him feel proud and closer to the man. Over the next 3 years, he visited the man regularly, often secretly to avoid the possibility of his parents ending the relationship. He saw the relationship as very positive and said it built his personality (e.g., greater self-confidence) and influenced many of his tastes (e.g., an appreciation for literature).

:*Case 3. Daniel, a 33-year-old Frenchman, was physically affectionate with his father starting at age 6. By 8, he became sexually attracted to him. At 10, he initiated sexual fondling with him, which the father accepted. In the sexual relationship, which lasted 4 years, Daniel always initiated the sex. In retrospect, he cherished the intimacy and described the relationship as "beautiful, pure, security, confidence, and love." He said it built his sexual self-confidence.

:*Case 4. At age 8, Dennis, a 21-year-old American, initiated sexual contact with a man friendly with his family, whom he suspected of being involved with his older brother. Sex occurred between them for the next 2 years. He said he usually initiated the encounters because he was always ready for sex. He described the relationship as the most positive he has ever had. He saw himself as having the upper hand, because he felt he had control over the man, who went to great lengths to fulfill his wishes. He felt that his adolescent and adult sexual relations went more smoothly because of the competence he got from these early experiences. Asked how a heterosexual male could have enjoyed homosexual relations, he answered that he was attracted to sex back then, not females or males per se.

:*Case 5. John, a 22-year-old Australian, first realized his sexual arousal to girls at age 8. By 9, he felt lonely and was bullied by older boys, when he met a male neighbor in his late teens. They quickly became friends, and John spent a lot of time at his house. The young man eventually initiated masturbatory sex with him. John was at first apprehensive that others would find out, but became comfortable with the sex once he felt safe from this concern. The relationship lasted 3 years. He was proud to be seen with the older male, saw him as his protector, and saw the intimacy they had as the highlight of his life. Asked if the relationship was consenting, he said yes, because he wanted it, the young man wanted it, he loved the young man, so consent meant, "Yes, do it.""

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00dec18c_a_professor_speaks.htm William Percy] (UMASS professor), quoted in: Lipman, Lisa. "UMASS professor advocates pederasty", ''Associated Press'', November 26, 2000.'''
*:"William Armstrong Percy III says that when he was 14, he seduced a male soldier while traveling on a train. "I never got enough sex with an older man. I don't see that I was harmed at all, except being deprived of not having more," said Percy. "I was already the aggressor."

*'''Tindall, Ralph (1978). "[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/tindall.htm The male adolescent involved with a pederast becomes an adult]", ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 3(4), pp. 375-379.'''
*:Several accounts. "During his 11th year he began spending his spare time around a service station, where he became acquainted with a master mechanic who was then in his early 40s, married, and childless. [...] On a fishing trip, during a break on an island, they began talking about sex, which led to Denver's being fellated by the mechanic and to masturbation of the mechanic by Denver. For the next 5 years mutual fellatio occurred two or three times per week. Sexual activity with the mechanic ceased at about age 19, but a close relationship continued to exist until the mechanic's death. Denver is now 44 years of age. [...] Denver remarried and has been a valued mechanic with the same company for 20 years. He has a supervisory position and believes that his relationship with his mechanic friend helped him reach his goals. He says he would have approved a similar relationship for either of his sons, had he become aware of such a situation. He reports no desire to have sex with males since approximately age 20."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Statements/factoids.htm Heinz Kohut] (psychologist), quoted in: Strozier, Charles (2001). ''Heinz Kohut: The Making of a Psychoanalyst'', pp. 95-96.'''
*:"I had this private tutor, who was a very important person in my life. He would take me to museums and swimming and concerts and we had endless intellectual conversations and played complicated intellectual games and played chess together" They also did sexual things together, which they both enjoyed, but Kohut felt the sex was more or less incidental. The important thing for him was the relationship. He said "I was an only child. So it was in some way psychologically life-saving for me. I was very fond of this fellow." Heinz was about 10 or 11 at the time. He describes his years with his tutor as being perhaps the happiest ones in his life."

*'''Stanley, Jessica L.; Bartholomew, Kim; Oram, Doug (2004). "[http://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/gay-and-bisexual-mens-age-discrepant-cse Gay and Bisexual Men's Age-Discrepant Childhood Sexual Experiences]", ''The Journal of Sex Research'', 41(4), pp. 381-389'''
*:"One man, at 14 years old, researched the location of gay bars and met a man with whom he had a few sexual encounters and with whom he has maintained a friendship for nearly 20 years."

*'''Dolezal, Curtis; Carballo-Diéguez, Alex (2002). "[http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Childhood+sexual+experiences+and+the+perception+of+abuse+among+Latino...-a094130312 Childhood sexual experiences and the perception of abuse among Latino men who have sex with men]," ''Journal of Sex Research'', 39(3), pp. 165-173.'''
*:"The men who did not consider the event to be abuse also frequently referred to their volition, with approximately two thirds stating that it was consensual and that they were not forced into the situation. Several felt that they had actually initiated the experience (e.g., "It was my initiative," "I was the one who went out for it," and "I exposed myself in front of him and provoked him." More common responses simply stated that they agreed to the encounter(s) (e.g., "I agreed to everything," "I was consenting," and "I was curious, I wanted to do it"). One participant was 12 and had a 17-year-old male partner. They had sexual contact 5 times over the course of a year. The participant was penetrated orally and anally. He said he was not coerced but was emotionally and physically hurt. Yet he did not consider it sexual abuse because "I agreed to it. I insisted more than the other person for this to take place." Another participant was 10 when he had sexual contact on 20 occasions over 3 months with a 25-year-old male neighbor. The events involved mutual masturbation and oral sex. The participant did not feel coerced or hurt and did not feel it was sexual abuse "because I seduced the neighbor.""

*'''[[Peter Tatchell]] (gay rights campaigner) in a letter to The Guardian Newspaper, UK, June 26, 1997'''
*:"Several of my friends - gay and straight, male and female - had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy."

*'''Lee, quoted in: Tatchell, Peter. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20090804172756/http://www.petertatchell.net/age%20of%20consent/14%20gay%20boyfriend.htm I'm 14, I'm gay & I want a boyfriend]", ''Thud'', 15 August 1997.'''
*:"Lee is 14. He's been having sex with boys since the age of eight, and with men since he was 12. Lee has a serious problem. He wants a steady relationship and has been going out recently with a guy in his mid-twenties, who he met at the hairdressers. But in the eyes of the law, Lee's partner is a paedophile and Lee is a victim of child abuse. That's not, however, the way Lee sees it: "I want to have a boyfriend. It's my choice. No one's abusing me. Why should we be treated like criminals?". This is a live issue for Lee because he prefers relationships with older guys. "I don't get on with people my own age", says Lee. "They're too immature. I like men in their 20s or early 30s. They are more experienced and serious. With them, you can get into a closer relationship than with a teenager"."

*'''[https://web.archive.org/web/20120206114650/https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/science/15gajdusek.html "D. [[Carleton Gajdusek]], Who Won Nobel for Work on Brain Disease, Is Dead at 85"]'''
*:"D. Carleton Gajdusek, a virologist who won the 1976 Nobel Prize in medicine for his work on the mysterious epidemics now known as prion diseases, died last week in Tromso, Norway. [...] In later life, Dr. Gajdusek became notorious when he was charged with molesting the many young boys he had adopted in New Guinea and Micronesia and brought to live with him in Maryland. He pleaded guilty to one charge, served a year in prison and left the United States in 1998, dividing his time between Paris, Amsterdam and Tromso. [...] He also remained unrepentant about the sexual relationships with his adopted sons, Dr. Klitzman said. He considered American law prudish and pointed out that sex with young men was normal in the cultures he studied and in the classic Greek societies at the foundation of Western civilization. His legal assistant, Dorrie Runman, who was previously married to one of his sons, John Runman, said Dr. Gajdusek's survivors included “his adopted sons and daughters, including Yavine Borimaand Jesse Mororui-Gajdusek in the United States, and two nephews, Karl Lawrence Gajdusek and Mark Terry.” His children were legally adopted, Ms. Runman said. He put several through college and graduate or medical school. Some of them, now in their 50s, supported him during his legal troubles, while one sibling testified against him."

*'''[[Terry Leahy|Leahy, Terry]] (1992). "Positively Experienced Man/Boy Sex: The Discourse of Seduction and the Social Construction of Masculinity," ''Australian and New Zealand Journal of Sociology'', 28(1), pp. 71-88.'''
*:A study of eight people who perceived their childhood (under 16) contacts with adults positively.
*:"Derek describes his first sexual encounter with a man in the following way. He is at the park at six o’clock on the swing. A man rushes towards him and begins to strip off:
*::I just sat there looking. I didn’t know what to do but sort of thrilling. I looked, gawked, sort of ... I didn’t mind, I just kept on swinging on the swing. And I wasn’t scared or anything and he just come up to me and said ’Oh, how are ya?’ and I said ’Oh, not too bad’. In other words, coming on to me. And he turned around and said, ’Oh, what’s your name?’ And I’d tell him my name ’cause I wasn’t scared or anything because it was in a park and it was about six o’clock, really early, six, you know what I mean. And he just said, ’Would you like a drink?’ and I said ’No’. Then I started getting a bit nervy, nervous sort of thing. I knew, I must ... I knew in a way that he’d do something. So I just sat there, you know, and he said, ’Oh, would you like to come for a drive?’ Well I rushed him! So I just went for a drive with him and there we got off. First time, we got off ... I wanted to try it out. So I tried it. It was a really good feeling. Ever since then I kept on going.
*:Here the narrative of this event begins with Derek sitting innocently on the swing. A man appears with obvious sexual intentions. Derek is instantly thrilled and takes voyeuristic pleasure in seeing him undress. He is not scared to go with the man and in fact ’rushes’ him. The sex is great and he has an orgasm. Even anal sex, though a bit uncomfortable at first, is enjoyed. All this has happened because he wanted to try it out and having done so he is eager to repeat the experience. This is typical of the discourse of male adolescent sexuality - spontaneous, adventurous, sexual pleasure is guaranteed, and casual contact is exciting. Derek presents himself as an active and initiating party. The events that take place are in reponse to his emerging self constituted sexual desire. All this works against any interpretation of Derek as a victim of homosexual seduction. Summarising his attitude to these sexual encounters on another occasion he concludes:
*::I mean to say, sex is sex, you gotta, you know, well ... The way I feel, what would you do without it? It’s just something normal. Sex is just normal for everybody. Not just for me, for everybody and to do without ... I reckon it would be pretty hard to do without it so you’re just going to have to think.
*:[...]
*:Christopher’s interview provides a thorough discussion of these issues. At the time when he was interviewed he was in his mid thirties. His relationship with an adult gay man, George, began when he was about nine years old and lasted till he was eighteen. In a wry comment on the discourse of seduction he offered this remark:
*::So I suppose then, you want to know now if I’m fucked up now sexually because of this terrible trauma of my childhood? Well - no. Umm. My main thrust - pun! - is heterosexual but ahh, I still occasionally sleep with males but when I say occasionally I mean very occasionally.
*:[...]
*:In particular, in discussing the various sexual activities in which he was engaged, Christopher stresses the physical pleasures of various acts and argues that his initial reservations about particular practices (oral sex, anal sex) were broken down as he received physical pleasure from these activities and came to feel that it was only fair to reciprocate."

*'''Philip, quoted in: [[Richard Yuill]] (2010). "[http://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/interrogating-essential-moral-baselines-adult-child-sex Interrogating the Essential: Moral Baselines on Adult-Child Sex]", ''Thymos'', 4(2), pp. 149-167.'''
*:"Philip: [Aged 7] My first arousal of adult men was when I was in Africa. ... It was just my curiosity was piqued and I noticed that he was washing his genitals. He started to get an erection. ... I was curious to explore his body further. About three or four days later I crept into his bedroom. ... I think he was fast asleep and I started playing with his penis. ... I was just curious what an erection was. I think I’d experienced it a bit as a boy but they would come and go . . . and I certainly hadn’t seen anything as big as that. ... I was most excited by his sexual excitement. There was no sexual excitement for myself, it was just pure curiosity but he was clearly very aroused, and my touching him increased his arousal - that excited me more. I think it was just like childhood curiosity.
*:"Philip: There was a chap who lived in the apartment above ours called Paul. . . I got onto the bed with him and he just had his shorts on.... He didn’t resist me, my advances to touch him and stroke him physically but he was a bit taken aback when I tried to feel his genitals.
*:"Researcher: You mentioned the first experimentation, looking at men's erections. Can you recall the first time when you took it further, thinking about sexual activity?
*:"Philip: Paul actually on one occasion (when I was playing around with him and he was masturbating) inserted his finger into my backside, which really did excite me!
*:"Philip: We had a next-door neighbour . . . and I was probably about nine–ten years old. He was going through a divorce, and I had got to know him quite well. ... I asked him if it would be okay if I stopped over for the night. ... I got into bed with him and started playing around with him. And at first he objected, but I just persevered and got him fully sexually aroused and was masturbating him and trying to get him to orgasm. Because that was my objective: to get men to achieve orgasm. ... I persuaded him that I liked to have my bottom played with. . . . He loved my arse-hole. Of course that was my dream. And as our friendship (because it wasn’t a relationship) developed, we would get more and more bold about inserting things into my backside.
*:"Philip: Now I was twelve/thirteen, and I was definitely having much stronger sexual responses. I was having orgasms. I wasn't ejaculating as far as I can remember at that time. . . I used to get him to do risky things like put his fingers inside me when we were at the swimming baths in the cubicle drying afterwards. That was quite a turn on: the fact that it was in such a public environment, and I think the power I had over him in the sexual department. . . I could wrap him round my finger to have sex. It was quite easily done and it was me that made the advances... He just identified as a sexual man and saw me as this curious boy who liked his arse being played with.
*:"Researcher: Did he at any time give pleasure to you through masturbation?
*:"Philip: I used to masturbate myself. He would occasionally do it but I wasn't really interested in that. My orgasms came through being screwed, the friction of rubbing my body against the sheets. The masturbating element really developed from my playing with him but I could quite easily get orgasms from being buggered.
*:"Philip: This was a much older man (in his mid-fifties). Whereas the neighbour was in his thirties (a very virile docker) the older man was much more intelligent, more cultured and the relationship between ourselves was far more cerebral. I'd go round, and we would read and listen to music... It was a more intelligent, mature relationship than the one I’d had with the docker, which had really been seduction on my part, very physical. . .This person didn't have a huge penis unlike the docker, but that didn’t bother me. This was a different relationship. We did things together, camping. . . . The friendship I had with the docker (the physical friendship) there was no sort of mental connection at all. I went round there purely to get my rocks off. But with the older bloke. ... I wanted to learn more about music, about literature. It was more of an intellectual side. It was very good and there was equally, if not more, stimulation from the intellectual side than the physical side. Maybe every couple of weeks we would have sex. It was just masturbatory sex.
*:"Researcher: You mentioned that you always had an interest in adult men?
*:"Philip: Yeah! I would say that from the age of seven onwards that my focus on sex and men have always been more mature men.... In all the relationships and friendships I was involved in, I knew exactly what I was doing, and knew what I set out to do and was fully in control. And there were times as a boy, I travelled to and from school by train . . . and you would occasionally get old men into the apartment. ... Sometimes I’d get turned on by that and hope that something happened and I’d engineer a situation. I’d play with my crotch or something to see if they were watching out the corner of their eye but if ever a man made an approach on me that would terrify me. ... I had to at all times be the seducer and initiator, and I think that was right and proper because I was a child and I knew my circumstances, I knew I was smaller and they were bigger and stronger men and I knew what rape was, and knew what physical assault was, and I wasn’t going to let that happen to me. ... It never happened to me!"

*'''Ian Bernard''', [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnSixDLrGlw Free Talk Live], 2010 [https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH backup].
*:Summary: Radio show host pursued relations as an 11 year old boy, and refuses to back down. Co-host says he is unusually well-adjusted and doesn't need to see a psychiatrist, as callers express their disbelief.
*'''[https://www.counterpunch.org/2005/01/29/the-passion-of-paul-shanley/ The Passion of Paul Shanley], 2005.'''
*:Summary: A famous priest is accused of multiple sexual relations with adolescent boys and men. JoAnn Wypijewski of CounterPunch explains the nuance behind what media are presenting as a simple case of sexual predation.
*'''[https://fstube.net/w/6ij9noaketMafmBdsGVHqg Scotty Bowers - Excerpts from the 2018 movie] by Matt Tyrnauer, "Scotty and the Secret History of Hollywood"'''.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20040823204921/http://www.logicalreality.com/openbb/read.php?TID=164 Pluto], on the Logical Reality forum.'''
*:Emotional need for sex with a boy, at 56, after enjoying the reverse long ago. Pluto's early childhood experience involved showering with a grown man, and enjoying sexual contact. At the time of the act, it would have most certainly been disapproved of, but there was no moral panic in place to rob him of his self-worth. "Yes, I did have sex with an adult when I was very young--10, 11, 12 years old--and I treasure and cherish the memories... [...] I was not hurt in any way by it. i only wish there had been more times when he fooled around with me."

*'''Kevin, from "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/01oct01c_my_father.htm My Father and I]", Kids Speak Out forum at allaboutsex.org'''
*:Positive man-boy incest is interrupted by a mother. "My father molested me from the time I was two till I was 15. We would lie naked and he would play with my penis. Then he would give me oral sex. When I was old enough I then started sucking him too. He never hurt me or tried to have anal sex with me, even though I wanted him to. I had anal sex with him, a few times, once my father decided my penis was big enough. My father and I would plan things around the times where we could meet and make each other feel good. My mother found out and two months ago my father was sent to prison. What my father did to me was not rape, at all. He never hurt me. In fact, I looked forward to spending the time with him but my mother and the police don't seem to listen."

*'''[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/19/national/main2104978.shtml Mark Foley]'''
*:Former American Republican, at 13-years-old. "The Rev. Anthony Mercieca, 72, described several encounters that he said Foley might perceive as sexually inappropriate, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune reported. They include massaging Foley while the boy was naked, skinny-dipping together at a secluded lake in Lake Worth and being nude in the same room on overnight trips. "Once maybe I touched him or so ... but I didn't, it's not something you call rape or penetration or anything like that," Mercieca told West Palm Beach station WPTV in a phone interview. "He seemed to like it, you know? So it was sort of more like a spontaneous thing". Mercieca said."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20111005050911/http://richarddawkins.net/articles/118 Richard Dawkins] (biologist)'''
*:From an article of his, that despite not being exactly sex-positive, goes as far as is 'acceptable' in playing down the impact of nonviolent, situational fondling of children by priests, while attacking the religious dogmas that sometimes cause so much shame after such encounters. "Being fondled by the Latin master in the Squash Court was a disagreeable sensation for a nine-year-old, a mixture of embarrassment and skin-crawling revulsion, but it was certainly not in the same league as being led to believe that I, or someone I knew, might go to everlasting fire. As soon as I could wriggle off his knee, I ran to tell my friends and we had a good laugh, our fellowship enhanced by the shared experience of the same sad pedophile. I do not believe that I, or they, suffered lasting, or even temporary damage from this disagreeable physical abuse of power. Given the Latin Master’s eventual suicide, maybe the damage was all on his side."

*'''[https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/fortuyn-favoured-depraved-2507525 Pim Fortuyn]'''
*:Populist, anti-immigration, homosexual politician from the Netherlands (deceased): "Fortuyn's first experience occurred when he was five years old. "The Dutch soldier asks if I want to see his tent. That's what I want. I like it and they all are sleeping on the ground in a sleeping-bag. I ask if it is hard and cold to sleep on the ground. Oh no, come here. Together we crawl in his sleeping-bag. The soldier asks my name and I ask his name. “He is called Arie and he asks if I like that name. Yes, I think that's a nice name and I lie beside him, nice and warm." Fortuyn then described a close sexual encounter with the soldier before leaving his sleeping-bag "to go and play outside." He added: "Can I come back tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow I may come back, says Arie." A few pages later, he describes another incident: "I went to the park for a walk, it was very silent and the sun was shining. On the bench sat a young fellow. I stood still, curious." Fortuyn relates another sexual encounter - this time in explicit detail. He concludes: "I was frightened and ran away to my home, to my mother. Excited, I ran into the room. My mother looked at me searchingly and asked what had happened. Nothing, of course. Watch out, little man, was the only thing she said. A glass of lemonade made me calm down. Yes, that was exciting." Most telling is his appraisal of these memories. "In chapter 1 about the 1950s, I wrote about my early sexual experiences, experiences that I see as an enrichment. Today, an experience like that in the park could easily lead to a complaint by parents to the police because of paedophilia, and the relevant young man would be in trouble. But why? "He didn't do me any harm. On the contrary, he showed me something that was incomprehensibly exciting and I could feel and touch it, but today we are ready to interfere with complete teams of professionals. By interfering in such an irritating and grown-up way in the world of children, we make an enormous problem of something that for a child is no problem at all and is only exciting.""

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20111121032020/http://www.mwillett.org/Debate/viewtopic.php?p=121929#121929 Todd Nickerson]'''
*:A self-declared pedophile writes: "I did have a single sexual encounter with an adult when I was a child, though I would hardly describe it as traumatic or even unpleasant. My memory of being touched—and that’s all it amounted to—is that it was, at most, a little confusing since I didn’t really understand what was taking place. Not that I really minded, though. In fact, after it occurred, I went immediately to a relative and bragged to her about it."

*'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voor_een_verloren_soldaat Voor Een Verloren Soldaat] (For A Lost Soldier), 1986 autobiographical novel by Rudi van Dantzig, made into a movie in 1992'''
*:Acclaimed ballet dancer and choreographer Rudi van Dantzig tells the story of his brief romance at twelve with a Canadian soldier at the end of World War II.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080517041605/http://www.freewebtown.com/newsstand/archive/0316.html Unnamed Indian boy], quoted in: "I found myself in the victim syndrome", ''Hindustan Times'', 21 January 2006.'''
*:Newspaper article about M8 + M19 sex and the victim syndrome "Once I was about 15, I grew familiar with terms like paedophilia and child abuse and started to realise what I had been through. This too had a downside. I found myself in 'the victim syndrome'. I started using this incident as an excuse to endear myself to people and constantly looked at myself as victimised in relationships and emotional circumstances. This persists even today but I try to rid myself of this misery."

*'''Sateryn on the IIDB forum<ref>Offline and no archives found for: '''iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=3730495&postcount=250'''</ref>'''
*:Got a 'kick' out of illegal sex play with adults, at five, but disliked the following investigation "you know the most traumatic part about being molested as a child? sitting in a room with your parents and a therapist staring at you, forcing you to take naked cloth dolls and use them to put on a puppet show to show the adults what happened to you. the physical act of it? the molestation itself? hell, it was interesting... i was 5, it was something new, and i lucked out in that it wasn't violent, just people getting their rocks off - and quite frankly i got a kick out of it, at the time."

*''' Member of the IIDB forum<ref>Offline and no archives found for: '''iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3924233#post3924233'''</ref>'''
*:Another member comments about their indifference, and expands later on. "I remember one incident when I was 9 or so and my uncles were 20 and 21. They brought me and a cousin who's about my age to their room and we engaged in oral sex. It was a one-time thing, but I didn't repress the memory, felt ashamed by it, or otherwise damaged by it. We didn't talk about it though, and it doesn't come to mind often. Is that counted as abuse? I had no strong feelings about it then or now. [...] I don't claim that it didn't affect me then, but it affected me in the way sexual activities affect us at that age - that of guilt of doing something I was taught is wrong or shameful. It's the same feeling I got then after masturbation and sexual experimentation with my friends, male and female."

*'''[https://www.boychat.org/messages/967788.htm Hangtwenty] on BoyChat, December 2005.'''
*:1950s boylove with an oversexed 12-year-old. "....The most intense affair happened between 1956 and 1958.... The boy, who was 12 when it started, not only told me that I was his 'best friend', but that I was his 'only friend'...! ....Since we both lived with our parents then, and both lived in the same apartment house, we were together alot... His intensity to be sexual with me was much stronger than mine was for him..!"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[https://secure.boychat.org/messages/1219065.htm Sick Rose (BC)] [https://archive.is/irc9j mirror]'''
*:Excellent testimony on pederastic relationships in a boys school. Includes close attention to how one of the participants subsequently grew up gay, and then reoriented his story of consensual sex with a teacher for political reasons.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080724184401/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~2.html Gerald], quoted by Inquisition 21'''
*:Convicted for loving sex with teenage boys, after they made unfortunate spousal choices.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100420224516/http://www.martijn.org/info/2000_002_EN.html Dirk Tieleman], quoted in "Tieleman op eenzame hoogte", ''OK magazine'' 74'''
*:A journalist claims that a slightly coercive relationship worked to his own benefit. "When I was thirteen, a boy of seventeen sexually used me for a period of time with slight coercion, but I never really felt bad about that. He jacked me off and forced me to jack him off, and at first I felt uncomfortable about that, but after a few times I began to enjoy it myself and the aspect of coercion trailed off. Off course, being a thirteen-year-old boy, I found it curious that I was doing such things with another boy, but I realize now that this first sexual experience has helped me approach girls - to whom I was far more attracted - confidently and without qualms later on. That first sexual experience with a boy was, to me, the perfect introduction to sexuality. [...] In the past years, since the Dutoux scandal, I've been hearing people say all the time that any form of sex with children would automatically lead to great disturbances and 'damage the innocent child's soul beyond repair', but I feel confident in stating with absolute certainty that I haven't suffered the least bit of damage from my first sexual experiences with that older boy - not as a child, and not now. On the contrary: I have always had a very normal and healthy sex life, perhaps even because of that first experience."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080430072153/http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_553687.html Kevin B. Johnson's boyfriend], quoted in: Wills, Rick. "Sexual abuse charges leveled against Seneca Valley instructor", ''Tribune Review'', February 22, 2008.'''
*:"The second boy [15/16?] described a sexual relationship with Johnson that began when the youth was a freshman in 2004 and continued until last month. He told police, "I am not a victim. I was a willing participant," according to the affidavit."

*'''Boylover.net member on experiences as an 11-year-old boy'''
*:"We piled back into the limo and it drove us to Toronto where we went to a stage play. I don’t remember what we saw because my head was still spinning about the fact that this attractive man, one who could have any female he wanted, was in love with me and was doing all this to make this night as special as he could. After the play, we headed for home. Limo drivers must have orders to ignore whatever they see going on in the back because ours got quite an eyeful. He was treated to the sight of an eleven-year-old boy and a nineteen-year-old man acting like boyfriends. We kissed, we petted, and we worked each other into an erotic frenzy, a frenzy for which there could only be one consummation."

*'''Boylover.net member on intercourse'''
*:"I was 10 and it was with an Adult Friend. I did not, nor do I now think I was abused. (well not by my AF anyway) I liked it. We only ever did the things I wanted to do."

*'''Gieles, Frans (2006). "[http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/sot/offender.htm#3-6a_narrative_force 'But sir, you are an offender!': Narrative coercion as method of behavior modification]"'''
*:"Craisatie (1998, among others page 117) describes a client who, as a child, had frequented a group, which in the book was called 'a child pornography ring'. As a child, he never had seen this as being abuse. Contrarily, he said that he'd gotten a lot of love, comradeship and care, which he did not get at home. Craisatie describes it as an example of successful treatment that his client ultimately abandoned his feeling of being loved and changed it into the feeling of being abused although this occurred only gradually and very late in the treatment process [...] Ehrenreich (2004) describes a man who for nineteen years was held in a closed clinic. He denied his offense, thus refused to speak about it, thus he did not cooperate, thus year after year his stay was renewed. Then, he changed tack: he 'acknowledged' his offense, he spoke about it, he did exactly what the therapists ordered, and said that he benefited from their treatment. This was the only way to be released. The man has been released. Then it turned out that his accusers had lied about everything they had said, under high pressure of the police: there never had been an offense."

*'''Boy in Dan Tsang's [https://library.lol/main/E9CBDB46170B45354650BEFF403D8341 ''The Age Taboo'' (1981). London: Gay Men's Press].'''
*:"It's often not the man who goes out to seduce the boy, but the other way round. In my first experience, I did the seducing. . . . It is mostly the boys who go out in search of sexual satisfaction from men..."

*'''[http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bta8oOuDtoI Man(?) on YouTube]'''
*:An extremely detailed account that was hindered by a voice concealer. Person had a positive relationship as youngster, and has met pedophiles.

*'''[http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/net/2007/10/19/orphans.admit.clown.fondled.them.html Carlock the Clown]'''
*:Some young children pleaded with authorities not to press charges against a clown who played with them sexually. "Surprisingly though, when asked by American embassy officials if they wanted their "Kuya Paul" charged in court for abusing them, all the three kids pleaded with the officials not to file a case against Carlock. "Please don't file a case against Kuya Paul. He is a good man, he is a good man," the kids said. "The kids told me that they loved the man so much because he was so good to them. They said they treated the man as their father. Paul gave them candies, lollipops," Karasuyama said." The clown was eventually [http://web.archive.org/web/20100325034303/http://illinoishomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=9747 tasered and killed by police].

*'''[http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/i-teenage-friend-michael-jackson-5083645 Terry George on "phone sex" with Michael Jackson]''' 
*:According to George, Michael Jackson engaged him in "phone sex" at the age of 13: "I do not feel like a victim and I never did feel like a victim," he said. See [http://www.terrygeorge.co.uk/about/michael-jackson/ directory] for other articles.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100325044759/http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/43/confessions-of-a-proud-pedophile-phillip-distasio-says-getting-caught-was-all-part-of-his-plan Phillip Distasio]'''
*:Imprisoned for life; a proud pedophile activist who had a relationship with an older man at 12. "Distasio describes himself as a second-generation pedophile: at the age of 12, he began a relationship with an older man, a swimming instructor named Charlie, at a boys' club in Massachusetts. He says he's known about his proclivity since age 9. "To me," he says, "it is as valid as any other sexual orientation.""

*'''[http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r18540381-Please-Read-Think-and-Stand-UP- "Jay78" commenting on broadbandreports.com]''' 
*:"Also, when I was about 6 years of age I was sexually "used" without coercion by an adult family member in ways that today would have put that person in prison. I almost forgot about that seemingly anecdotal incident and memory until I was reminded of it by the current hysteria over that kind of thing. Compared with the other things I experienced, that was not even worth thinking of, I would never hurt that person who did that and have a good relationship with that person today."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/rivas_howard_miller.htm "Howard Miller" as told to Titus Rivas, Ipce]'''
*:"We would zip our sleeping bags together and he would tickle and massage me all over. He would tell me dirty jokes while helping me with my homework and get me aroused. Then we would masturbate together. He satisfied me and then himself or we satisfied ourselves while watching each other. I thought that he was fascinating to look at and occasionally touch but not to satisfy. [...] I have only good feelings about what happened but am sad that most people will never be able to understand that. I also wish that we didn't have to worry about each other getting into trouble with the society over what happened. [...] Because I had such a positive experience as a child I believe that I can say with absolute certainty that sometimes such relationships can be very positive. Notice I don't say that they always will be, but heck more than 50% of marriages end in divorce. Most real child abuse occurs in families. Should then marriage be outlawed?"

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080929074056/http://www.boylover.net/info/scrapbook/kolya_03.html Loren Robb and Kolya - Bulletin]'''
*:A man tells of his loving relationship with a young native Arctic boy who he brought up in New Zealand.

*'''[http://youfoundme.org/mylife.html My Life - Youfoundme.org]'''
*:A very long testimony written by a person known to a contact of Newgon. "It was the end of that summer that I learned what real heartache felt like. Sex was never the dominating factor in my relationship with James. I wanted to fool around a lot more than he did but I just liked being with him. He knew so much about construction and getting things to work that it was like being at school all the time except it was fun. Like any kid who hears his dad tell the same joke all the time I got tired of hearing "plumbings easy boy, just remember shit flows down hill". What I really didn't want to hear was the day James told me we couldn't do the sex thing anymore. I don't recall his exact words but something to the effect "this just isn't right or this isn't normal". I was crushed. It (our friendship) seemed so normal and great to me that I didn't understand why he felt that way. My suffering didn't come from the hands of an abuser, my suffer came from the words of a man who feared for my wellbeing. I kept telling him I was okay with things and nothing needed to change. Change did come and even my begging wouldn't get him to monkey around with me. It happened once or twice after the big talk but it was never the same."

*'''"Keith" in O'Carroll, Tom (1980). ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case]'', pp. 83-84.'''
*:"As a boy he became sexually mature at age twelve-and-a-half. "It was like the world was beginning to make sense, to take on purpose and meaning. [...] I regard my meeting with Mr. S., then aged twenty-six, as a critical turning point in my love life. Until then, sex was fun, felt good and left me only moderately guilty. Once I approached Mr. S. (Yes, I approached him) with my thirteen-year-old impatience for intimacy, he told no one, responded positively to my shaky advances (didn't even laught at me!) and simply embraced me. [...] Here was a masculine adult man (happily married even), who was interested in doing with me what I was already finding exciting with my boy-friends. And through this relationship a new dimension was added to my experience which has not occurred to me before - tenderness, affection and love. (...) This affection was, in its way, just as satisfying as the ecstatic orgasms that punctuated our days and nights together. I regard this man, this relationship as a turning point because I was never the same after knowing him for two years - I was more in tune with myself after that...".

*'''[[Frits Bernard|Bernard, Frits]] (1972). ''Sex met kinderen'', pp. 75-76.'''
*:A 25 year old man tells of a relationship struck up with a gay man when he was eight. They started having sex when he was ten, something that he enjoyed. The relationship lasts until he is 18.

*'''''Paedophilia - What It Means To The Child'' by [[Frits Bernard]], printed in [http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/panfull.htm PAN 3] (pp. 15 - 17)'''
**"I was about 13 when I had my first paedophile experience. [...] The man who brought me into touch with homosexuality and whom I even loved physically was, and still is, one of my dearest friends. I remember what a wonderful feeling it was when he satisfied me for the first time. I was not troubled in the least by worries over having done 'perverted things', probably because I had no idea of what such things were. [...] The only trouble I have had over this was when I first told my fiancée about it."
**"When I was seven I had contact with a man who was especially nice to me. He used to take me to his attic, sit me on his lap and play with me sexually. I thought it was very nice and enjoyed it. I always looked forward to Wednesday afternoons, the days when we saw each other. This went on for a long time. Later I had many contacts with other men, but never with boys my own age. One day I went with a waiter to his house. I was very interested and excited. We had unusually satisfying sex together. I must have been about 14. Back home I was restless and went to see him the very next day on my own initiative. We had intercourse about twenty times in the following period. [...] Now, after a good life, I can see these early contacts as very positive to my development. I would not like to have missed them and I do not envy the people who never had these opportunities."
**"When I was about eight years old I got to know a man in the street who thought I played very nicely. He invited me out for a bicycle ride, and later to visit his home. [...] From him I received love, which actually I had never known (not, I mean, in the way I know it at present from my wife). [...] Later, when I was ten or eleven, we had sex with each other, something I always enjoyed."
**Several further accounts involving slightly older minors are available in the article.

*'''[[Frits Bernard|Bernard, Frits]] (1979). "[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/pan/htmfiles/pan3p13.htm Paedophilia: What it means to the child]" ''[[PAN]]'', November 1979.'''

:*A heterosexual male recalls at age 24: "I had my first sexual contact with an older man in Rotterdam... It was nothing more than each of us quickly masturbating each other, looking shyly around us. Once this corner was turned a lot of other experiences followed. I can't say much about them, just sex and nothing more. One of the reasons nothing lasted was that the men were dead scared of being trapped. The iniative always came from me. I used to wear my shortest and cutest shorts and stroll across the market squares and through the busiest streets of Rotterdam until I saw someone I thought was 'like that' and then I allowed myself to be 'seduced'. That went on until I was 17. [...] I have no regrets about this period. I am only sorry that I never had what I was really looking for: an older friend with whom I could enjoy not only sex but all kinds of things, someone who could teach me about everything."

:*An engaged, heterosexual male recalls at age 23: "I was about 13 when I had my first paedophile experience (...) The man who brought me into touch with homosexuality and whom I even loved physically was, and still is, one of my dearest friends. I remember what a wonderful feeling it was when he satisfied me for the first time." Despite this, the man makes it clear that he does not approve of pedophilic contact, as it happens today.

:*A heterosexual adult recalls at age 37: "I must have been 14 [or] 15 at the time of my first sexual encounter with a man of about 30. I enjoyed these experiences. (...) I am now married and have four children. People with this inclination should fit into society and our society should accept this as natural. But it will be a very long time before this happens. (...) My earlier contacts of this kind were so upsetting to my parents that, at the time, I always had the feeling that I was dong something wrong. Now I see it as part of a personal experience which I would not like to see removed from my life."

:*A gay man recalls at 67, the following contact with a 35-year-old man: "When I was 7, I had contact with a man who was especially nice to me. He used to take me to his attic, had me sit on his lap and we had sexual contact with each other. I really found it pleasant and enjoyed it. I was always looking forward to Wednesday afternoons, the days we saw each other. This went on for a long period of time. [...] Now, as a nearly 68-year-old man, who has had a good life, I regard these contacts I used to have as very positive for my development. I would not have wanted to miss them, and I do not envy people who have never not had these opportunities. [...] Later I had many contacts with other men, but never with boys my own age. One day I went with a waiter to his house. I was very interested and excited. We had unusually satisfying sex together. I must have been about 14. Back home I was restless and went to see him the very next day on my own initiative. We had intercourse about twenty times in the following period."

:*A straight man recalls at 25, the following relationship: "When I was about eight years old I got to know a man in the street who thought I played very nicely. He invited me out for a bicycle ride, and later to visit his home (...) Gradually, we got to know each other... and I came to realise that he was homosexual. This did not shock me; I just wanted to know more about it. (...) From him I received love, which actually I had never known (...) Later, when I was ten or eleven, we had sex with each other, some-thing I always enjoyed. That lasted until I was eighteen, when I started going steady with a girl. When I became engaged I was able to tell my future wife with an easy mind about my youthful experiences. She could appreciate the whole thing very well. [We have] an especially good marriage, an especially fine sexual relationship, and an especially dear little daughter."

*'''Björn, quoted in: Vogel, Wolf (1997) ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/rivas/boys_men/bjorn.htm Heimliche Liebe: Eros zwischen Knabe und Mann]'', Hamburg: Jahn & Ernst. Translator says the following: "includes the remarkable case of Björn and Jan, located in a major town in the North of Germany."'''
*:"When Björn (32) was a young boy, he met his adult friend Jan (45) and they still had a sexual relationship at the time of the interview. As a 10-year-old boy, Björn felt attracted to social worker Jan because of the latter's revolutionary ideas and Björn tried to provoke him with a lot of questions and remarks about sexuality. One day, when Björn was eleven and a half, they happened to meet near the town's riverbank. Björn tried to get Jan sexually interested in him and when they met at Jan's place he finally succeeded. Björn really wanted Jan to penetrate him, but Jan declined the offer and it took Björn a year to convince him that he was not afraid of getting physically hurt in the process. The boy really enjoyed this type of penetrative sexual contact and now that he's an adult, he's still doing it quite often with Jan. He remarks that if one wishes to speak of seduction in this relationship, it was him who was the seducing party. Their relationship has always stayed a secret for the people in their environment. Jan used to help Björn with the problems he was having with his parents, and also with his educational and professional progress."

*'''Mydans, Seth. "[http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/05/world/in-a-philippine-town-child-prostitution-despite-protests-is-a-way-of-life.html In a Philippine Town, Child Prostitution, Despite Protests, Is a Way of Life]", ''New York Times'', February 5, 1989.'''
*:"Drive into this green and quiet town [Pangsanjan, Philippines] 40 miles southeast of Manila and groups of men will run alongside your car, banging on the windows, offering a choice of the local attractions: A boat ride to the scenic waterfall or a child prostitute. (...) When Mrs. Zaide's group, the Council of Citizens for the Protection of Children, pasted up posters warning against prostitution, the citizens of Pagsanjan tore them down. Stones were thrown at the houses of council members. When the Immigration Commission a year ago arrested 22 foreigners who were engaged in prostitution rings, some parents, the recipients of their largesse, testified in their defense. (...) Estafania Aldaba-Lim, a former minister of social welfare who has studied the Pagsanjan situation, said local residents discovered the easy money in male prostitution when American filmmakers came to town to shoot scenes for "Apocalypse Now." "I suppose some gays with the crew fell in love with the young macho boatmen,'" she said, "and then it went to much younger boys, down to 9, 10, 11 years old, and the whole town got in on it." (...) But, Miss Zaide said child prostitution continues. One Swiss national, she said, married the sister of his 15-year-old male lover and has applied to return home not with his wife but with his new brother-in-law. "The family is proud of it," Miss Zaide said. It flaunts his gifts, which include one of the better residences in town. At school, according to another member of Miss Zaide's group, children proudly display the new clothes, pocket money and other gifts that they receive from their patrons, tempting other children to follow their example. One Third of Boys Are Involved. Miss Zaide estimated that one-third of the youngsters have taken part in the sex trade in this town of 22,000, where 65 percent of the population is below the age of 18. When teachers confront the parents of these children, she said, the parents ask them, "What can you give us in exchange? Can you pay for my child's schooling? Can you give him an allowance? Can you build a home for us?""

*'''[http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/zeffirelli-had-homosexual-experiences-at-catholic-school_1014084 Franco Zeffirelli] (Italian film director), quoted in: "Zeffirelli Had Homosexual Experiences At Catholic School", ''World Entertainment News Network'', 20 November 2006.'''
*:"Sexual abuse is putting it too strongly. There was no penetration. "I felt sorry for the poor man. If I had realised what he had in mind, I would probably have given him what he wanted. I thought the priest felt a special affection for me, he was always kissing me. "(Homosexual experiences) are not always bad for boys. I don't think they make you homosexual. Sexual choice is made for you early on in life anyway - if you like girls, you like girls."

*'''Neil, quoted in: Birkett, D. (1997). ''"[http://www.deabirkett.com/pages/journalism_film/film/monsters_with_human_faces.htm The Devil Amongst Us - accompanying article]", ''The Guardian'', September 17, 1997.'''
*:"During my research I met Neil, a gay man now aged 40, who enjoyed having sex with adult men from the age of nine. "It seems to be politically correct, even within the gay movement, to be anti-paedophile. But when I ask gay male friends when they first had sex they say, 'Oh, ten, 11, 12, with a bloke down the road who was 22.' He was probably a paedophile!""

*'''Dan, quoted in: Newberger, Eli H. (1999). ''Bringing Up a Boy''. Perseus Books.'''
*:This is a general guide for parents. From the section on gay adolescents comes this:
*:"In ninth grade, Dan began sexual activity with men, some in their twenties, others in their thirties or older. He meets many of them in gay clubs. He also feels confident initiating contact with strangers in public, in stores, for example. He is diligent about safe sex and careful not to make himself vulnerable to sexual exploitation by drinking too much, but he has a considerable number of sexual contacts during a year."

*'''Brian, in [http://www.nambla.org/mglad.html a letter to the ''NAMBLA Bulletin''], Vol. 12, No. 8, Pg. 15, October 1991.'''
*:"When I was 13 years old I had my first sexual experience with someone older: my adult camp counselor. [...] During my third and final year I began having sexual desires for him, wanted him to kiss me, and tried to give him several hints. While other boys were working their way towards medals and projects they could take home, my project was to climb in bed with this man. My chance finally came on a rainy night after all of us went to bed. I could not sleep and instead I went into his private quarters where he invited me to climb under the sheets. He finally took the chance and fondled me finally kissing then sucking me over and over again. It was the most exciting sexual experience I have ever had. The next day and for the final week of camp we reacted toward each other as if nothing had happened. I left camp never to see or hear from him again.
*:As a gay man in my early 30s I am not now attracted to children but to older men; perhaps thinking of my counselor. But my case is one to refute the charges that once molested as a child, a person grows up to be a molester of his own. I was not molested. I was loved and I feel I am better for it."

*'''Bill, in [http://www.nambla.org/five-ten.html a letter to the ''NAMBLA Bulletin''], Vol. 12, No. 8, Pg. 15, October 1991.'''
*:"I am a 24-year-old white male who really wishes to join your organization. I firmly believe in all you stand for. I myself was shunned by society's rules and a small community's norms of acceptable behaviors. I was 13 and met a really nice 45-year-old man who really made me feel special. He liked me for what I was, not something that I could become. Sure, sex was a part of our relationship, but that wasn't the only thing. We enjoyed each others' company, sharing our thoughts and ideas on different topics, and setting our goals.
*:Well, needless to say, my parents found out and prohibited me from seeing him anymore. They also made me file a criminal complaint on him. He went to trial and was sentenced to 5 - 10 years on a variety of charges in which I had no say.
*:I told the judge that I consented to our relationship and what went along with it. He said that I was too young to make a "mature" decision."

*'''[http://www.nambla.org/nyu1983.html Harry Hay] (gay rights campaigner), comments given at a public forum on February 22, 1983, at New York University'''
*:"Between thirteen and fourteen, I had begun to hear about the fact that there are men who sometimes like boys, and I want very much to know about these things. I'd heard about this from the men who worked in the fields the year before. They told me about them; they called them “fairies.” And of course they didn’t call the usual civilities. I didn’t tell them that I was listening to every word they said and storing it up for future use. I knew that I wouldn’t be able to do anything about it that summer, but the following summer, when I was fourteen, I was bound and determined that I was going to do something about that. [...]
*:The point is that I was perfectly capable of handling myself and knowing exactly what I wanted. But this year I knew that I wanted to find a man to tell me what I wanted to know. So, at fourteen, you realize, I'm a child molester. I'm a child, and I'm molesting an adult till I find out what I want to know. And I found him, and he was shocked. Then he discovered that, rather than being a man, as he suspected that I was from the way I looked — my callouses on my hands, and the way I handled myself, and my clothing — that I was only a fourteen-year-old kid, and if anybody found out about it he'd be in jail for life, or, at least in California twenty-three years in that period. [...]
*:So, again, as I said, my offering is not as a member of NAMBLA, but in memory of that fourteen-year-old boy who was handled by Matt so long ago. And in memorial to Matt, I offer you my love."

*'''Zimmerman, Ann (1994). "[http://www.dallasobserver.com/1994-11-17/news/tell-mama-why-you-cry-part-i/5 'Tell Mama Why You Cry' (Part I)]," ''Dallas Observer'', November 17.'''
*:"The tape of Tim's interview could not be located, but according to Black's notes, Tim had seen his father touch his sister on her private parts on several occasions. "He stated his father tickles Lima on her private parts and she likes it. When questioned further, Tim revealed his father also touches him on his private parts...at his house...Tim stated he doesn't mind his father doing this."

*'''"En me vriendje houdt van mij: 23 verhalen uit het leven gegrepen", edited by Ben Füss and Gorrit Goslinga (Eindhoven: Stichting Uitgeverij NVSH, 1981)'''
*:"We had just moved and that was how I met a nice man, as a 13-year-old. We talked a lot, in his room. He was very interested in art and possessed a lot of books with pictures of works of art and sculpture. I had little interest for this but did not want to hurt Dick's feelings. Only the pictures that showed nudity captured my interest. I also tried to hide this. [...]" This interest was noticed by Dick and it led to Dick briefly caressing the boy's genitals. Dick was very cautious and tried to end it immediately. The boy was very eager to have additional sexual experiences and finally persuaded Dick to allow him a visit. One thing led to another and the end result was a tender sexual relationship that lasted for about six years. After the war he re-established a life-long friendship with Dick, though without the sexual aspect. He was there when Dick died at age 83. He adds: "The value of this relationship is something I continue to cherish till this very day."

*'''[http://www.jungsforum.net/politik/messages/159581.htm Anonymous, in Berliner Zeitung (Translation)]'''
*:"Being 52 now, I got a relationship with a man at the age of 8-9 of whom I was told later that he was a paedophile. The relationship went on until I was about 14 years old and we were lucky that it remained undiscovered and free of police enquiries. Even today, so many years later, I remember my big friend with gratitude, as he made my coming out as a gay person later on – and many other things in my life - a lot easier for me. Since then, I have met numerous people who also had [consensual] sexual relationships with adults as children and teenagers and who are not ashamed of this. It is easy to understand why such people never get in touch with abuse counseling agencies, because they really don't need such help. That's how such centres get a completely one-sided view of so-called victims of abuse.".

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Shane-mod.htm Shane] on his website'''
*:A 14-year-old gay boy in Australia says, “I have one really good adult friend that knows about my sexuality, … Steve has never tried anything sexual with me, although I often wish he would.”

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932399.htm Under My House . Tent Sleeping . Neighbors Bedroom] by Linca on BoyChat, July 2005.'''
*:A man recounts his first experiences of sex, including with an adult neighbor at 14: "[He] did with me ... what he had been wanting to do with me since I was 8 years old. We are friends to this day."

*'''Two posts by hyacinth on BoyChat: [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/BC-663921.htm May 2002] [1] and [http://www.boychat.org/messages/932570.htm July 2005] [2]'''
*:A man describes his childhood sexual experiences with adults. The first was anal sex with a benedictine monk at 14 years old: “I was't stupid, at 14 I knew my way around … He was very nice and very gentle, and I liked him alot.” [1] Next was a relationship that lasted for a year and a half with a man and his two sons. [2]

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Benjamin-LettersOfBoy.htm Letters of a Loving Boy--Excerpted letters and diaries of boys], edited by Jarod Benjamin, 1997.'''
*:A 14-year-old boy wrote a series of love letters, unsuccessfully courting an adult friend for a more intimate relationship.

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Mogenic-LikeGreece.htm Just Like Greece? — Gay Teen Dates Septuagenarian], an interview of "John" by Brandon K. Thorp in ''Mogenic'', June 2006.'''
*:A 22-year-old man talks about the 67-year-old man he met at the museum where they were both volunteering when he was 13. A friendship emerged based on unusually common interests for such a pair. The relationship evolved into mentoring and eventually romance, which became sexual two years later. They remained occasionally intimate for five years while the teenager also began to explore relationships with his age peers. Looking back on the man’s death when he was 20, he says, “He enhanced the quality of my youth, and his influence will likely enhance the quality of my entire adult life. And I enhanced his old age. We both got something out of it.”

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Aaron/index.htm Aaron], on his website'''
*:A 15-year-old boy talks about his adult lover on his website.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20110520030140/http://nambla.org/boys.htm Boys Speak Out on Man/Boy Love], NAMBLA, 1981.'''
*:NAMBLA published a book with first-person accounts of 29 boys about their relationships with older men. Titles include ''The Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me'' by Greg, 16, ''It Shouldn’t Be a Crime to Make Love'' by Bryan, 12, ''If It Wasn’t for Mark I’d Probably Be Dead Today'' by Carl, 14, ''I Need My Lovers'' by Tyrone, 16, and ''It Was Me Who Started It'' by Frank, 15.

*'''The perspective of a loving boy in [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Benjamin-BoysAndBoylovers.htm On Boys and Boylovers] by Jarod Benjamin, 1997.'''
*:Jarod Benjamin’s 1997 study of male-male pedophilia includes a section that reports on pedophile relationships from the point of view of boys in them. Reference is also made to 620 quotes of boys in Edward Brongersma’s [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557410038 Loving Boys].

*'''"[http://www.thinkandask.com/2006/042106-john.html Baseball, Boys, One Man on Illegal Love]", ''Think & Ask'', April 2006.'''
*:A boy happily participates in a sexual and emotional relationship with an older man beginning at age 12. "Jesse is less than half John's age and turned 15-years-old in April, but the boy is not his son. Jesse "is my lover," John said, "but the feelings are mutual, this is a consensual relationship." John met Jesse (not his real name) when the boy was homeless three years ago. [...] In Jesse's own words, "John knows me, he's here inside my head already, I mean all along. He is my dad, boyfriend, best friend, brother, all in one. He's great," he grins as he chats with a friend on the office computer. [...] "I brought it up and told him how I felt and offered to take care of him. That is when he said he was in love with me and never wanted to leave," John said."

*'''George, quoted in: Drew, D. and Drake, J. (1969). ''[https://www.greek-love.com/modern-europe/italy/war-time-naples-pederasty-initiation Boys For Sale].'''
*:NewgonWiki: A long and fascinating account of a man who was introduced to working boys during the second war. After returning, he then develops a relationship with a highly-sexed 11 year old nephew and they enjoy each others attentions well into his teens. The relationship aids, or does not impair the boy's adjustment as an adult.

*'''David, quoted in: Brongersma, Edward (1992). ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without Victims]''. Global Academic Publishers, Amsterdam.'''
*:Gay sex at 13 with a man in his mid-30s. "[O]ne day he started telling me about all the boys he'd had, and.., we finally ended up in the next room. We had a good time. I actually thought it was a little funny; at one point I even started to laugh. I don't know why -- I just had this weird need to laugh. [...] It was all so new. It was exciting. [...] (Interviewer: It [your relationship] all sounds very rosy...) Yes, it's really, really great."

*'''Unnamed 13/14-year-old boy, quoted in: "[http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/vigilance-vital-to-keeping-vile-paedophiles-at-bay-57221.html Vigilance vital to keeping vile paedophiles at bay]", ''Irish Independent'', 28 February 2007.'''
*:Claims that he consented, but others saw it very differently. "The young lad in question, who was 13 when his contact with these paedophiles began, claims that the sexual relationships he had with them were all consensual. In other words, he is stating that he was not raped, and that, to his mind at least, there was no abuse."

*'''logicalreality.com (defunct rational-humanist website) webmaster Pat Kelly on his forum, around 2006'''
*:Aged 5, Kelly helped a boy, 17, masturbate; was grateful for his invitation. He claims to have enjoyed hiding in a garage and masturbating the other boy, much like a schoolboy would enjoy being allowed into the staff room - the world of adults, with which he was so fascinated.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100324234047/http://www.martijn.org/info/OK41_EN_1.html Andre and Dennis], quoted in MARTIJN's OK Magazine'''
*:Educationalist on his relationship with a primary schoolboy. "Actually, it really lasted quite a while before the sexual side of our relationship started to take shape; I did not dare begin with this so soon. André does feel a bit guilty towards Dennis' mother that he never brought up the sexuality. He asks himself if she may not have figured out after all, because every now and then she has made remarks that could point to that. She does know that Dennis and André have a very physical contact with each other and kiss each other. Basically, he would like to talk about it, but, understandably, this is not easy. On being asked, Dennis had a clear opinion: 'She does not need to know!'"

*'''"[http://web.archive.org/web/20100828081631/http://www.martijn.org/page.php?id=1171983 11-year-old faggot]", quoted in: "Column 1: The Unicorn", ''Boys Speak Out on Man/Boy Love'' (fourth edition), July 1996. Previously published in NAMBLA Bulletin vol. 4 no. 10, December 1983.'''
*:"My first statement is that I want to dispel the image that a child is an ''innocent little puppy dog''. Children have plenty of knowledge about life, the universe and everything. But adults tend not to listen to their children. This ''innocent puppy'' syndrome represses the child's social, sexual, political, economical, and emotional desires. Children are not taken seriously and are expected to conform to a society in which they can't question its validity. This has got to stop! [...] A child is a sexual being. Therefore, children should have the right to explore any aspect of sexuality they desire to engage in. Why do parents, politicians, and police (the 3 p's) feed guilt into children that are sexually active? [...] Many people have been destroyed because of intergenerational relationships, people who could offer the world a lot if they had just not been persecuted for being different. Burning witches is a pastime which is just regaining popularity in the States."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/BC-146796.htm My Story: A story of a boy] by Elf on BoyChat, October 1998.'''
*:A man in his mid-20s tells his story. When he was nine or ten years old, he responded willingly to the seduction of a 16- or 17-year-old neighbor boy. They had a passionate love affair for over a year until they were discovered and his father beat him savagely. The older boy's family disappeared from town. This man wrote of that affair as the best thing that ever happened to him and attributed his deep problems at the time of writing to the brutal way it was torn away from him.

*'''"[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Spike/xaboutme.htm Spike]" on his website'''
*:A 15-year-old boy writes about his adult lover: "When I was 10, I found myself a mentor, a wonderful old man that needed me as much as I needed him. ... J has been the best thing that could ever have happened to me. Everything I am today I owe to J. He and Mom are both educated people who believe that I must prepare myself for adulthood by learning how to learn, how to think for myself, and how to believe in myself ... Mom sees the results of my association with J, and she could not be more pleased."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Hoby-mod.htm Hoby] on his website'''
*:A boy proclaims his interest in adult men and says, "You should be able to love whoever you want when you want and as long as you both happy it dont matter what anyone else thinks."

*'''''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Arlekin/complain-mod.htm My Complaints]'' by David Alejandro, December 1996, on his website.'''
*:A 13-year-old boy makes an impassioned plea for sexual freedom: "I want to love and be loved by whom I want. For the last two years I have an older friend. I am not gay, I like girls. He doesn't, but we understand each other very well. It is nobody's business what we do or don’t do. ... Stop protecting me, please!" (Note: His site history page indicated that he was 13 when he posted this page and 15½ in June 1999. The English index pages said that he lived in the "Land of the Incas.")

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Stefan/index.htm Stefan] on his web page'''
*:A 12-year-old in Holland says, "I will tell you about my BEST friend. He’s 28 and works at home. I love him the most in the world and he loves me. He says I'm the cutest boy in the world."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20101128082130/http://www.scottohara.com/obit.htm Scott O'Hara], quoted in his obituary at the Spirit of Stonewall Press Conference, New York City, June 24, 1994.'''
*:The publisher of Steam magazine says, "When I was 12 and 13 years old I would have joined NAMBLA in a minute, because I knew I was gay and I wanted to go out and get laid, not just read The Gay Mystique all my life; I needed personal contact."

*'''Ik Wilde Meer! ("[http://web.archive.org/web/20100828071543/http://www.martijn.org/info/Martijn/martijn02.pdf I Want More!]") in Martijn (PDF, 6 Mb), December 1980, page 16-18, in Dutch.'''
*:A married man reports on his 6-year-long relationship with a man who showed him erotic art and masturbated him. The relationship later turned platonic and the younger man was at the older's deathbed 37 years later.

*'''[http://www.boylover.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/194.html tribute to frank] by mick15 on BoyLover.net, December 7, 2005.'''
*:A teenaged boy describes his loving, sexual relationship with his soccer mentor, who had recently died.

*'''I want to speak out!!!!!!!! by "15 yr old boy" on BoyChat, September 2000.'''
*:A 15-year-old boy writes about his adult lover: "He is the best thing that has ever happened to me. ... I wish this world would just open its eyes and see that relationships like this are healthy and good for boys my age—but yes only if the boy wants the relationship."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Adam-mod.htm There is Magic Out There] by Joshua Adam on his website.'''
*:A 13-year-old in the 10th grade writes about the emotional support he gets from his older friend, Angel, who is helping him overcome the hatred cast upon him by his family and school for liking other boys. Angel and Adam have never met in person and do not plan to do so. Their relationship is entirely nonsexual, although it is definitely one of love and mentorship.

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932397.htm count me IN !!! :))] by siao on BoyChat, July 2005. '''
*:A man recounts his first experience of sex with an adult at seven years old: “suddenly fun was "in" … gosh, what was that twirling feeling which went all thru me ???” He also speaks of such encounters with many other men, saying, “NOT A SINGLE ONE EVER ABUSED ME ! I was free to say 'YES!!!!' and also knew how to say 'no' if there were ever anything I might not want.”

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932440.htm A long and varied career by Ambar] on BoyChat, July 2005.'''
*:A man recounts his earliest sexual experiences, including with his best friend’s father at eight years old: “He became my second very, very, very best friend and so began a wonderful, loving relationship. I still adore that man :-)”

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]

[[fr:Témoignages: Adulte mâle avec mineur mâle]]

Testimony: Adult Male with Minor Male

2026-08-26T18:14:36Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}

*:The late Scotty Bowers, famously known "Hollywood's Pimp", was in fact a highly complex individual - having experienced real suffering as a serviceman. He also had a considerable influence on the sexual revolution after he returned, and was a key contact of [[Alfred Kinsey]]. His sexual experiences as a hustler in his youth, however, he does not regret. "I had a very nice childhood; a good childhood. The neighbour, who had two kids - his wife was a sweetheart and he was too, I couldn't think of anything but nice things to say about them [...] just because he wanted to cuddle me/hold me/jack me [off], I don't see anything wrong with that [...] abused? absolutely not; this is bullshit, man! There's no such thing as someone ruining your life when they suck your cock [...] even as a little kid, I saw nothing wrong with that [...] we were unloading the trailer and [the priest], I could tell by the look in his eye that he wanted me [...] then he proceeded to fix me up with friends, and through him, I would meet other priests and go to their church. Within weeks, I had seen approximately 25-30 priests. They paid me off in change out of the collection box (laughter) [...] everybody knew me downtown [as he describes his side hustles] I was doing my little thing all by myself. [...] I did what I did because I knew what I was doing and I wanted to do it"

*'''[https://news.yahoo.com/george-takei-pedophilia-tape-posted-195359153.html George Takei]''' at age 13 or 14 (accounts vary) with a 19 year old.
::Takei is well known for positively recalling this early experience on a number of occasions. See, for example, [https://fstube.net/w/k4Q6ydNJBkbPAqGACEQszm this] video.

*'''[https://web.archive.org/web/20221225024442/https://makinggayhistory.com/podcast/craig-rodwell/ Craig Rodwell] by Eric Marcus, "Making Gay History", November 2022 (Recorded 1989)'''.
::Craig Rodwell was one of the most consequential gay activists of the 20th century. Rodwell is known for participating in the Stonewall riots, his work in the Mattachine Society, founding the [[Oscar Wilde]] Memorial Bookshop, proposing the first annual pride march, and dating Harvey Milk in the early 1960s.
::From 13 to 14 years old, Rodwell had sex with “hundreds of men” in Chicago. He would go cruising outside of gay bars to meet these men. Speaking of the experience, he said “This is what I lived for, literally. And that’s all I thought about all day long, just so I could get downtown and go cruising. Uh, it was, oh, it was just, I get thrilled now even thinking about it, those, those, those times. It had a great sense of freedom about it and adventure and, oh, I met all kinds of guys—Air Force guys, cops, you name it. I met all kinds of guys during high school”. When Rodwell was 14, he was charged and convicted by the Chicago police for the crime of juvenile delinquency when he was caught walking home after having sex with a man in his thirties. He was ultimately sentenced to two years of probation. His lover was sentenced to 5 years imprisonment for "crimes against nature".

*'''[http://salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2002/07/22/coming_of_age/ Minor report] by David Tuller in Salon.com, July 22, 2002.'''
**An aircraft maintenance worker describes his first experience at thirteen with a man of about 30 who had hired him to do yard work. After inviting him inside and showing him pictures of men wrestling, the man “started rubbing my crotch, and I was both nervous and really excited by it.” He went on to seek out other significantly older men. “I never felt used. I really wanted it, and except for the first time I always felt like the aggressor.”
**Noted gay novelist [[Edmund White]] talks about picking up men at Chicago beaches and public restrooms from the age of 13 or 14. “I was very oversexed, absolutely driven wild by desire. ... The first one was a handsome architect, who actually had children older than me. I was absolutely fascinated by him, and I seduced him. I followed him to his car, walked right up to him and started talking to him. My mother was away and I said, ‘Come back to my apartment.’ And it was terrific.”
** In an essay about sex between adolescents and adults, David Tuller relates his own desire as a 15-year-old "tormented homosexual wannabe." Upon seeing the movie Summer of '42, in which a young widow "pulls Hermie into her arms and, in her grief, into her bed," he says, "I cried while I watched, ... because I so yearned for the tender moments that Hermie found."
**A gay health care professional in his 50s discusses how the relationship he pursued with a family friend in his early 20s helped him learn at the age of fifteen that men could care for each other. "It was clear that it certainly felt good to both of us. ... In some way it was a real lifesaver, because it made me feel that love and affection and closeness and sex would be possible in my life. ... when we were together, it was like a little oasis where we could be ourselves."
** A businessman in Denver recounts his two-year relationship, from age fifteen, with his 29-year-old boss at the restaurant where he worked. "It was frightening and invigorating and I felt clumsy and awkward. But he was playful and fun and very gentle. I never felt coerced. As foreign as it was to me I was very open to it. Afterwards, I felt good, like I'd experienced something I'd wanted to for a long time." Speaking of how it affected his life at the time, he says, "I wasn't an awkward, out-of-place kid anymore. I felt appreciated for being gay, instead of being an outcast and made fun of. Suddenly I had this new self-confidence. I didn't have to hate myself for being gay."

*'''R. Andrew Nilsen. (1992). Intergenerational Intimacy, in Empathy, Volume 3, Number 1, pp. 95-97.'''<ref>[[:File:Intergenerational Intimacy by Andrew Nilsen.pdf|Nilsen: Intergenerational Intimacy (internal link)]]</ref>
:*Reporting on interviews conducted by the author, Nilsen wrote:
::"A boy of 8 had a sexual relationship with an adult man of 42. This boy said, "He treats me great; I like it a lot. He's nicer to me than my own father." (p. 95).
:*Interview with Ramón, age 8: "I have only had sex with a guy this year. He's 35 and is my Sunday School Teacher. He likes for me to be in his house and we go to bed a lot. He teaches me about sex and that makes me glad because then I know he likes it and I know what to do..." (p. 96).
:*A 14-year old boy responds: "My male friend is a real man. My daddy, a cop, plays at being a man but a real man doesn't beat his kid. My man friend let's me have sex with him whenever I want and sex with my girlfriend when I want that." (p. 95).
:*"At a New York City apartment some years ago I observed and interviewed a 17-year old boy French kissing and fellating his 37-year old lover. When I asked why he was doing that he just said "Because I want to." Simple question and simple answer." (p. 96).

*'''Hardi in [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-018-9506-6 Mulya (2018) - Contesting the Dominant Discourse of Child Sexual Abuse: Sexual Subjects, Agency, and Ethics]
*:"It all started when I was 5 years old. I already experienced sexual harrassment, but I just enjoyed it. At that time my mom worked in a rural town. One day I was invited by a young guy in that neighbourhood. He asked me to hold his penis. I did what he said till his fluid came out. I didn’t know what fluid it was, but I just enjoyed it. This happened repeatedly, including my friends at the same age with me asked me to do that too.Then my family moved to another city. There, I experienced the same thing. Young men there invited me to do the same, and I just enjoyed it. I was also asked to oral his penis and I did it. I did all those things but I have not yet experienced the peak. Until one day I also can feel how pleasurable it was when that white fuid came out. My intermediate and high schools were the time when I really enjoyed such activities. Almost every day I masturbated and did same-sex activities like that. Thanks to God after high school, uni, and until now I am not bound to those sins like I was. It’s all because of my struggles with God so that I can leave all those sinful deeds. [...] As far as I remember, I was playing around the neighbourhood, then a young guy invited me, and I don’t know why, I just followed him. At that time I was only 5 years old, if I’m not mistaken. My feeling now? Just ordinary. I remember at that time I just enjoyed it without knowing what I was doing. I never hated those guys. I don’t know where they are now, and I don’t care. I totally forget it".

*'''Keith Vacha, ''Quiet Fire: Memoirs of Older Gay Men'', edited by Cassie Damewood (Trumansburg, New York: The Crossing Press, 1985).'''
*:[Ed] From 1978-1984, gay writer Keith Vacha conducted interviews with gay-identifying men, mostly in California and Arizona, who were at least 55 years old. Taken from over 100 taped interviews of 2-10 hours, ''Quiet Fire'' presents 17 stories of gay men from the pre-[[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|stonewall]] generation. In his summary, Vacha claims to have mixed real names and pseudonyms, and notes "a high degree of inter-generational relationships among the men I met" (p. 217). Of particular interest to this article is '''Bob Basker''' (Born September 30, 1918 in East Harlem, New York City. Died April 6, 2001) - Interviewed by Keith Vacha at age 65. The youngest of 5 sons, Basker participated in early black civil rights/desegregation and homophile activism. Basker hired a black man and refused to fire him after his superior insisted black workers went against company policy, costing him his job. With his then wife Greta, Basker "became the nominee purchasers to obtain a home for a black couple in Skokie (Illinois), Bob and Mary Smythe" (p. 54). He explains: "All hell broke loose. Our house was firebombed, we had unending obscene phone calls and death threats, and all our bank loans were cancelled" (Ibid). Basker turned to gay issues, and in 1965 became founding president of "Mattachine Midwest," the first Mattachine Society in Chicago. He also "helped to start the [Miami] Gay Activist Alliance in 1971" (p. 55) and became the Executive Director of Florida's Dade County Coalition for the Humanistic Rights of Gays (p. 56). He said the following about his young sex-life:

::"When I began selling newspapers at night, between the ages of eleven and fifteen, I was exposed to a lot of sex in [subway station] tearooms. [...] You'd meet people having sex with each other, not always, but often all through the night. Sometimes you'd walk in and they were in the midst of having some kind of sex and they'd look up and say, "Oh, it's only a kid," and go right back to whatever they were doing. I was serviced regularly and once in a while I would do the servicing. I met some really nice people who were afraid of being involved with a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen-year-old kid but I did manage to go home with some of them. I was generally the aggressor" (p. 46).

::"I got to learn something about classical music, ballet, and opera. I am the only "cultured" one in the family [...] and I think it's all because of my association with gay life, when these older men took me home with them. [...] I used to cruise the back of the Metropolitan Opera constantly [...] in order to meet these men and go home with them. It was never a question of me taking money. It was just a matter of going to a nice man's home" (pp. 46-47).

::"I used to hang around the parks in New York City [...] a lot of cruising. Sometimes in the movies I'd be picked up by older men, even before I was old enough to have climaxes, and we'd go somewhere and I'd jerk them off. I was fascinated watching them have a climax before I could have one. I'd look at that stuff and wonder, "When is it gonna happen to me?" (p. 47).

::"I had sex with different people three to four times a week, starting at the age of fourteen. [...] [T]hree times a week, fifty weeks a year, that's at least a hundred and fifty partners. Over a period of twenty years, three thousand partners. That creates a tremendous amount of sophisticated sex" (p. 48).

::'''Al Hoskins''' - Small business owner in Berkeley, California, was interviewed in his 60s:

::"When I was eleven I went over to the bus depot to the men's room. So many men [...] There was a guy there at the other end of the place who was sort of masturbating. I immediately got an erection which prompted him to walk over to me and start feeling me. Well, that of course thrilled me to no end. [...] My mother thought he was the nicest person. I used to visit him every time I went to the old Hippodrome Theatre." (p. 145).

* '''Jonathan Dollimore''' (born 1948) - Relationship from ages 14-15 with Tony, an adult family friend who was having sex with both him and his mother around the same time. British academic who pioneered [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0091.xml cultural materialism] as a practice for intepreting texts. Co-founder of the ''Centre for the Study of Sexual Dissidence'' at the University of Sussex, Dollimore's work has been claimed to be of "preeminent importance to English studies for the last forty years" and to have "revolutionized literary studies by combining a dedication to close textual analysis with an examination of the social and political contexts within which texts are produced and received" (Marlow, [https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780190221911/obo-9780190221911-0089.xml 2020]). Influential for critical gender studies and later queer theory, his writing featured in ''The Lesbian and Gay Studies Reader'' ([https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Lesbian_and_Gay_Studies_Reader.html?id=OmLrFXy3UoQC&redir_esc=y 1993]) alongside [[Gayle Rubin]], David Halperin, and other pioneering queer academics who have discussed intergenerational sexuality.

::''[http://library.lol/main/2165BB190230E4500117E36A873F72E2 '''Desire: A Memoir''']'' '''(1st edition, 2017: Bloomsbury Academic Press), pp. 1-5.'''

::"Tony was an interesting man, ex-RAF, nomadic, far more knowledgeable than any other adult I’d encountered, including all of my school teachers, and also seemingly genuinely interested in teaching me things – as well as having sex with me. It was under his influence that I started to read thoughtfully for the first time. He introduced me to writers like Kipling, Somerset Maugham, Graham Greene, Thomas Hardy and T. S. Eliot.

::The cultural influence that Tony exerted on me would now be construed as ‘grooming’; and maybe it was, but it was also what made me want to learn to write. I did experience it as a desire, perhaps because it was so closely related to my sexual encounters with him, which weren’t demanding or complicated, and mainly consisted in him sympathetically helping me to orgasm. I liked that well enough to sometimes lie awake at night when he was staying with us, hoping he might come to my room to do it again."

::"I didn't feel personally betrayed by Tony's attempted seduction of my mother; nor have I ever felt damaged by the sex he and I had together. Of course, I realized that, at the very least, he was betraying my parent's trust in having sex with me, but, at the same time, that, too, was attractive to this adolescent." (pp. 1-2, 2017, 1st edn).

::[Newgon: The 2nd edition to this book ([https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Desire/b7EjEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0 2021]) was endorsed by famous gay author [[Edmund White]], who has spoken positively of his own age-gap sex during youth. In this edition, Dollimore thinks back to his earliest sensual/sexual experience at "3 or 4 years old," concluding:

::"I am still unsure whether Freudians are right in their insistence on the sexuality of the child, but I do know that the assumed innocence of the child is usually in the eye of the adult beholder" (p. 5, 2021).]

*'''[[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [http://library.lol/main/4FB01D8582CB462BF79D0CF28A43BF00 Unspeakable: A Life Beyond Sexual Morality] (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2020).'''
::Eric Wolton - London sex worker picked up by once-famous gay/pederast (pan-sexual) author [[Norman Douglas]] at the age of 12, whose parents granted permission for him to travel with Douglas for a walking tour of Italy. With Wolton recalling the experience positively, Cleves writes:

<blockquote>
A decade after they first met, [...] Wolton refused to disavow his childhood sexual relationship with Douglas, writing:
<blockquote>
''They were happy times [...] I have no evil thoughts about them although I am different today than I was then. You were my tin god and even now you are. I do really love you [...] I want you to understand Doug that you are more to me than ever you were. The difference is now that I am old enough to realise it.''
</blockquote>
As an adult, Wolton pursued sexual encounters with women. He was ‘different’ than he had been as a boy, but he felt positively about his youthful sexual encounters with Douglas nonetheless [...] neither the letters nor the actions of Douglas’s long-term child sexual partners indicate that they regarded their relationships with him through the framework of trauma (p. 54)
</blockquote>

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-072.htm Letter from John] in HFP Mailbag and [http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/13023005/ Sexual Abuse from a Victim] by John Tate, December 7, 2004.'''
*:A 17-year-old reports on the anguish in his life stemming from sexual activity with his grandfather from age seven and attributes the worst aspects to society’s attitudes about it: “I think if this sort of thing was tolerated I would not have felt so fucking alienated, so hated, as a child, I would have not been an outcast.”

*'''Denizet-Lewis, Benoit. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20120408053610/http://www.bostonmagazine.com/articles/boy_crazy/ Boy Crazy]", ''Boston Magazine'', May 2001'''
**Famous poet [[Allen Ginsberg]] commented on the 1977 pedophilia scandal in Revere, Massachusetts, "I had sex when I was 8 with a man in the back of my grandfather’s candy store in Revere, and I turned out okay."
**Best-selling Canadian author [[James Dubro]] was 14 in 1961 when he started having sex with a 22-year-old college student who remains his friend 40 years later.

*'''Author [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1588180395 Kirk Read]'''
*: In his 2001 book, How I Learned to Snap, Kirk Read tells of his sexual experiences with adults starting at age 13, which he says saved his life. "Intergenerational sex saved my life", "American culture's only frame of reference for sex with minors is abuse. I don't deny that abuse occurs, but this should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. A blanket approach that criminalizes all sex between adults and minors undermines the fact that for many gay teenagers, sex with an adult can be a beautiful, life-changing experience. It was for me", "I sought out sex with older men time and time again as a teenager. I had fumbling sexual encounters with other kids as a preadolescent, but they always left me unsatisfied. None of us knew what we were doing, and our shame and fear overwhelmed any joy of discovery" (pp. 57-59) [http://web.archive.org/web/20110520025428/http://nambla.org/snap.htm Reviewed] by NAMBLA.

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/johnny.htm Johnny], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Maternally approved gay sex at 12. "(Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) Tss ... There aren't any. [...except] to explain that to my family, or to keep his orientation hidden from them."

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/peter.htm Peter], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Happy with pedophile contacts from an early age (around ten). "(Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) I don't have any."

*'''[http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/stephan.htm Stephan], quoted in: Underwager, Ralph & Wakefield, Hollida (1992). "Interviews with Three Boys", IPT-Forensics Journal, volume 4.'''
*:Descriptive account of yet another acceptable relationship, beginning at age 11. "Ferdinand really picked me up in a terrific way. I have learned lots from him, I've had many experiences and I've done lots of things with Ferdinand. I have learned something about human nature from Ferdinand. And other important things in society, responsibility, how to go about with money. I still don't do that very well, you know, it just didn't stick with me. But, you know, that sort of thing. The important things in life. Before Ferdinand I didn't know about any of these things and through him I have discovered them. Also, I always say, "I didn't have a childhood until I met Ferdinand. Then I received my childhood." And that is really how it was because before that I had so many problems. [...] (Interviewer: What are the negative aspects of your contact with Ferdinand?) Not one! That is very easy to say. Not one."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/host/sandfort_87/Appendix.htm Thijs and Joop], quoted in: Sandfort, Theo (1987). ''Boys on Their Contacts with Men'', Elmhurst, NY: Global Academic Publishers.'''
*:Befriended by a boylover at nine, and enjoying sex. "(Interviewer: What do you find the unpleasant aspects of sex with Joop?) There aren't any. I don't know of any, at least. [...] (Interviewer: Can you say who starts it, when you have sex?) Either of us. Sometimes me, yeah, mostly me. But he, too, real often. [...] (Interviewer: What do you think your mother would feel about your having sex with Joop?) I guess she'd think it was dirty. She'd think a man doing that with a child wasn't normal, that you just shouldn't do it. That's what she'd say. (Interviewer: And how do you feel about her thinking that way?) Rotten stupid! Although I wouldn't tell her it was rotten stupid. I mean, what business is it of hers? It's my business what I do. [...] (Interviewer: How do you feel about your having sex with Joop?) It's just really nice. (Interviewer: It's no problem for you?) It's just like a man going to bed with a woman--I think it's exactly the same: nice. And the feelings and so on they have, I have too."

*'''Interviewee, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality]''.'''
*:"My first homosexual experience came at the age of five or six, when I would play with this boy who was at that time about sixteen. He would ask me if I wanted to go into his house for something to eat, like some cookies or something. Of course I would go. Next he would ask me if I would go into the bedroom with him. Upon entering the bedroom, he would undress and ask me to do the same. I would, probably out of fright. I distinctly remember his body being very hairy, so perhaps I underestimated his age. Anyway, after undressing, he would tell me to bend over and then he would insert his erect penis into my anal region and start thrusting back and forth. He would then stimulate my penis and want me to do the same to him. We also masturbated each other, with him reaching orgasm and myself only being stimulated. I also spent some time in oral-genital contact. I did find the whole experience quite pleasing and continued to engage in these activities for a week or two. Then, and I don't recall why, we suddenly stopped doing it completely."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/library_2/rind/rind_gay_boys_app.htm Bruce Rind, quoting accounts from Savin-Williams (1997).]'''
*:[B: 13, M: 22] "Subject and adult brother often massaged each other. "This time, however, I got a little hard and then he noted I had grown so much since he last saw me naked. He asked me jokingly if he could suck my dick. I said 'yes' so we got off on each other. He did me and then I did him. He came all over me but I did not. This lasted a month until he headed back to work. I do miss him as a friend and a brother. Was nothing romantic." Subject added, "I liked it, ... felt good. I wanted to do it again and again. I already knew my brother was gay and that I was attracted to men so this did not prove or disprove that I was gay."
*:[B: 15, M: 27] "[It was with] the mailman, honest to God! On and off for two years. The first time was when I came to the door to get a special delivery package in my sheer designer underwear, from American Male. I was changing to go back to school. He sprouted a boner, I got hard, he grabbed mine, I grabbed his, and we were off and running. Every day I'd come home for lunch; my mother worked. I had to be quick so he'd not get docked for late deliveries. He had a real thing for redheads like me. He was very forward, connected with me, and told me how hot I was. Talked about our backgrounds. It ended when he suddenly got transferred and contact became difficult. We visited each other and had sex, but it was hard and we agreed mutually because of the distance that it was better that we be friends and not lovers" (p. 172).
*:[B: 12, M: 22] It lasted 9 months with his science teacher. "It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren't home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn't a teacher at my school no more" (p. 163). "
*:[B: 12, M: 35] The man was a family friend; the sex was mutually initiated, oral, off and on for 10 years (a couple of times per month), and "physically great." It confused the subject that the man was married, yet was willing to have sex with him. "Eventually I fell in love with him; knew I was gay but did not broadcast this; I was curious because of the age difference. Mutual oral sex happened after he fondled me; it was the first orgasm I ever had."
*:[B: 13, M: 38] "Family friend. I initiated on a camping trip; we were in same tent at state park; oral sex to orgasm for both of us; several times during the night; incredibly erotic, tremendous release, very pleasurable. Not real close; didn't enjoy kissing. Afterwards scary because I enjoyed it so much. Not wanting to be near him on the trip because afraid others would notice. Once per month for the next 4 years that I initiated; never talked about it; sex was all it was. Wished I was straight so the attractions would go away, because the sexual gratification was so strong."
*:[B: 14, M: 26] "It was with a stranger; he initiated it; it involved oral and mutual masturbation, we did it 10 more times. I was excited, was loved and in love, got affection, but was not prepared for sex. It was not so l much that I wanted his affection; I was attracted to him. This relationship lasted a week then three months later we met again and we were sexual."

*'''[[Bruce Rind]] - “The Problem with Consensus Morality”, in [https://sci-hub.wf/10.1023/a:1020603214218 Peer Commentaries on Green (2002) and Schmidt (2002)]. ''Archives of Sexual Behavior,'' Vol. 31, No. 6, December 2002.'''

::"These are based on a sampling of interviews I recently conducted on individuals who learned about me from publicity surrounding my publications and contacted me to tell their stories. These cases, involving five men who had sex as boys around age 10 with men, dispute Schmidt’s claim that there can never be sexual consensus between prepubescents and adults. The cases are cross-national, coming from Australia, Canada, England, France, and the United States. The first three men are homosexual and the last two are heterosexual. All names have been altered to preserve confidentiality.

:*Case 1. Nathan, a 45-year-old Brit, began being intensely curious about adult male genitalia when he was 8. At this age, in attempt to satisfy this curiosity, he surreptitiously went into the room of his household’s sleeping man servant and fondled him under his bed covers. By age 10, his curiosity had turned into sexual arousal. He unsuccessfully tried to solicit sex from men in locker rooms. At age 11, he met a neighbor man, whom he worked on over many visits in attempt to initiate sex. Eventually, he succeeded. In his many repeats with the man over the next 2 years, Nathan reported that he was the “conductor” - he controlled the sexual interactions. While still a boy, he had several other sexual relations with men, all of which he viewed as very positive. He thinks the sex helped his sexual self-confidence: as he matured, he knew exactly what he wanted in sex, while his peers were still searching.

:*Case 2. James, a 23-year-old Canadian, first felt sexually aroused by other males at age 6 and had his first sex at 8 with a peer. At 11, he befriended a neighbor man, towhom he gave many signals, hoping for sex to occur. Eventually, it did, which made him feel proud and closer to the man. Over the next 3 years, he visited the man regularly, often secretly to avoid the possibility of his parents ending the relationship. He saw the relationship as very positive and said it built his personality (e.g., greater self-confidence) and influenced many of his tastes (e.g., an appreciation for literature).

:*Case 3. Daniel, a 33-year-old Frenchman, was physically affectionate with his father starting at age 6. By 8, he became sexually attracted to him. At 10, he initiated sexual fondling with him, which the father accepted. In the sexual relationship, which lasted 4 years, Daniel always initiated the sex. In retrospect, he cherished the intimacy and described the relationship as "beautiful, pure, security, confidence, and love." He said it built his sexual self-confidence.

:*Case 4. At age 8, Dennis, a 21-year-old American, initiated sexual contact with a man friendly with his family, whom he suspected of being involved with his older brother. Sex occurred between them for the next 2 years. He said he usually initiated the encounters because he was always ready for sex. He described the relationship as the most positive he has ever had. He saw himself as having the upper hand, because he felt he had control over the man, who went to great lengths to fulfill his wishes. He felt that his adolescent and adult sexual relations went more smoothly because of the competence he got from these early experiences. Asked how a heterosexual male could have enjoyed homosexual relations, he answered that he was attracted to sex back then, not females or males per se.

:*Case 5. John, a 22-year-old Australian, first realized his sexual arousal to girls at age 8. By 9, he felt lonely and was bullied by older boys, when he met a male neighbor in his late teens. They quickly became friends, and John spent a lot of time at his house. The young man eventually initiated masturbatory sex with him. John was at first apprehensive that others would find out, but became comfortable with the sex once he felt safe from this concern. The relationship lasted 3 years. He was proud to be seen with the older male, saw him as his protector, and saw the intimacy they had as the highlight of his life. Asked if the relationship was consenting, he said yes, because he wanted it, the young man wanted it, he loved the young man, so consent meant, "Yes, do it.""

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00dec18c_a_professor_speaks.htm William Percy] (UMASS professor), quoted in: Lipman, Lisa. "UMASS professor advocates pederasty", ''Associated Press'', November 26, 2000.'''
*:"William Armstrong Percy III says that when he was 14, he seduced a male soldier while traveling on a train. "I never got enough sex with an older man. I don't see that I was harmed at all, except being deprived of not having more," said Percy. "I was already the aggressor."

*'''Tindall, Ralph (1978). "[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/tindall.htm The male adolescent involved with a pederast becomes an adult]", ''Journal of Homosexuality'', 3(4), pp. 375-379.'''
*:Several accounts. "During his 11th year he began spending his spare time around a service station, where he became acquainted with a master mechanic who was then in his early 40s, married, and childless. [...] On a fishing trip, during a break on an island, they began talking about sex, which led to Denver's being fellated by the mechanic and to masturbation of the mechanic by Denver. For the next 5 years mutual fellatio occurred two or three times per week. Sexual activity with the mechanic ceased at about age 19, but a close relationship continued to exist until the mechanic's death. Denver is now 44 years of age. [...] Denver remarried and has been a valued mechanic with the same company for 20 years. He has a supervisory position and believes that his relationship with his mechanic friend helped him reach his goals. He says he would have approved a similar relationship for either of his sons, had he become aware of such a situation. He reports no desire to have sex with males since approximately age 20."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Statements/factoids.htm Heinz Kohut] (psychologist), quoted in: Strozier, Charles (2001). ''Heinz Kohut: The Making of a Psychoanalyst'', pp. 95-96.'''
*:"I had this private tutor, who was a very important person in my life. He would take me to museums and swimming and concerts and we had endless intellectual conversations and played complicated intellectual games and played chess together" They also did sexual things together, which they both enjoyed, but Kohut felt the sex was more or less incidental. The important thing for him was the relationship. He said "I was an only child. So it was in some way psychologically life-saving for me. I was very fond of this fellow." Heinz was about 10 or 11 at the time. He describes his years with his tutor as being perhaps the happiest ones in his life."

*'''Stanley, Jessica L.; Bartholomew, Kim; Oram, Doug (2004). "[http://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/gay-and-bisexual-mens-age-discrepant-cse Gay and Bisexual Men's Age-Discrepant Childhood Sexual Experiences]", ''The Journal of Sex Research'', 41(4), pp. 381-389'''
*:"One man, at 14 years old, researched the location of gay bars and met a man with whom he had a few sexual encounters and with whom he has maintained a friendship for nearly 20 years."

*'''Dolezal, Curtis; Carballo-Diéguez, Alex (2002). "[http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Childhood+sexual+experiences+and+the+perception+of+abuse+among+Latino...-a094130312 Childhood sexual experiences and the perception of abuse among Latino men who have sex with men]," ''Journal of Sex Research'', 39(3), pp. 165-173.'''
*:"The men who did not consider the event to be abuse also frequently referred to their volition, with approximately two thirds stating that it was consensual and that they were not forced into the situation. Several felt that they had actually initiated the experience (e.g., "It was my initiative," "I was the one who went out for it," and "I exposed myself in front of him and provoked him." More common responses simply stated that they agreed to the encounter(s) (e.g., "I agreed to everything," "I was consenting," and "I was curious, I wanted to do it"). One participant was 12 and had a 17-year-old male partner. They had sexual contact 5 times over the course of a year. The participant was penetrated orally and anally. He said he was not coerced but was emotionally and physically hurt. Yet he did not consider it sexual abuse because "I agreed to it. I insisted more than the other person for this to take place." Another participant was 10 when he had sexual contact on 20 occasions over 3 months with a 25-year-old male neighbor. The events involved mutual masturbation and oral sex. The participant did not feel coerced or hurt and did not feel it was sexual abuse "because I seduced the neighbor.""

*'''[[Peter Tatchell]] (gay rights campaigner) in a letter to The Guardian Newspaper, UK, June 26, 1997'''
*:"Several of my friends - gay and straight, male and female - had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy."

*'''Lee, quoted in: Tatchell, Peter. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20090804172756/http://www.petertatchell.net/age%20of%20consent/14%20gay%20boyfriend.htm I'm 14, I'm gay & I want a boyfriend]", ''Thud'', 15 August 1997.'''
*:"Lee is 14. He's been having sex with boys since the age of eight, and with men since he was 12. Lee has a serious problem. He wants a steady relationship and has been going out recently with a guy in his mid-twenties, who he met at the hairdressers. But in the eyes of the law, Lee's partner is a paedophile and Lee is a victim of child abuse. That's not, however, the way Lee sees it: "I want to have a boyfriend. It's my choice. No one's abusing me. Why should we be treated like criminals?". This is a live issue for Lee because he prefers relationships with older guys. "I don't get on with people my own age", says Lee. "They're too immature. I like men in their 20s or early 30s. They are more experienced and serious. With them, you can get into a closer relationship than with a teenager"."

*'''[https://web.archive.org/web/20120206114650/https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/science/15gajdusek.html "D. [[Carleton Gajdusek]], Who Won Nobel for Work on Brain Disease, Is Dead at 85"]'''
*:"D. Carleton Gajdusek, a virologist who won the 1976 Nobel Prize in medicine for his work on the mysterious epidemics now known as prion diseases, died last week in Tromso, Norway. [...] In later life, Dr. Gajdusek became notorious when he was charged with molesting the many young boys he had adopted in New Guinea and Micronesia and brought to live with him in Maryland. He pleaded guilty to one charge, served a year in prison and left the United States in 1998, dividing his time between Paris, Amsterdam and Tromso. [...] He also remained unrepentant about the sexual relationships with his adopted sons, Dr. Klitzman said. He considered American law prudish and pointed out that sex with young men was normal in the cultures he studied and in the classic Greek societies at the foundation of Western civilization. His legal assistant, Dorrie Runman, who was previously married to one of his sons, John Runman, said Dr. Gajdusek's survivors included “his adopted sons and daughters, including Yavine Borimaand Jesse Mororui-Gajdusek in the United States, and two nephews, Karl Lawrence Gajdusek and Mark Terry.” His children were legally adopted, Ms. Runman said. He put several through college and graduate or medical school. Some of them, now in their 50s, supported him during his legal troubles, while one sibling testified against him."

*'''[[Terry Leahy|Leahy, Terry]] (1992). "Positively Experienced Man/Boy Sex: The Discourse of Seduction and the Social Construction of Masculinity," ''Australian and New Zealand Journal of Sociology'', 28(1), pp. 71-88.'''
*:A study of eight people who perceived their childhood (under 16) contacts with adults positively.
*:"Derek describes his first sexual encounter with a man in the following way. He is at the park at six o’clock on the swing. A man rushes towards him and begins to strip off:
*::I just sat there looking. I didn’t know what to do but sort of thrilling. I looked, gawked, sort of ... I didn’t mind, I just kept on swinging on the swing. And I wasn’t scared or anything and he just come up to me and said ’Oh, how are ya?’ and I said ’Oh, not too bad’. In other words, coming on to me. And he turned around and said, ’Oh, what’s your name?’ And I’d tell him my name ’cause I wasn’t scared or anything because it was in a park and it was about six o’clock, really early, six, you know what I mean. And he just said, ’Would you like a drink?’ and I said ’No’. Then I started getting a bit nervy, nervous sort of thing. I knew, I must ... I knew in a way that he’d do something. So I just sat there, you know, and he said, ’Oh, would you like to come for a drive?’ Well I rushed him! So I just went for a drive with him and there we got off. First time, we got off ... I wanted to try it out. So I tried it. It was a really good feeling. Ever since then I kept on going.
*:Here the narrative of this event begins with Derek sitting innocently on the swing. A man appears with obvious sexual intentions. Derek is instantly thrilled and takes voyeuristic pleasure in seeing him undress. He is not scared to go with the man and in fact ’rushes’ him. The sex is great and he has an orgasm. Even anal sex, though a bit uncomfortable at first, is enjoyed. All this has happened because he wanted to try it out and having done so he is eager to repeat the experience. This is typical of the discourse of male adolescent sexuality - spontaneous, adventurous, sexual pleasure is guaranteed, and casual contact is exciting. Derek presents himself as an active and initiating party. The events that take place are in reponse to his emerging self constituted sexual desire. All this works against any interpretation of Derek as a victim of homosexual seduction. Summarising his attitude to these sexual encounters on another occasion he concludes:
*::I mean to say, sex is sex, you gotta, you know, well ... The way I feel, what would you do without it? It’s just something normal. Sex is just normal for everybody. Not just for me, for everybody and to do without ... I reckon it would be pretty hard to do without it so you’re just going to have to think.
*:[...]
*:Christopher’s interview provides a thorough discussion of these issues. At the time when he was interviewed he was in his mid thirties. His relationship with an adult gay man, George, began when he was about nine years old and lasted till he was eighteen. In a wry comment on the discourse of seduction he offered this remark:
*::So I suppose then, you want to know now if I’m fucked up now sexually because of this terrible trauma of my childhood? Well - no. Umm. My main thrust - pun! - is heterosexual but ahh, I still occasionally sleep with males but when I say occasionally I mean very occasionally.
*:[...]
*:In particular, in discussing the various sexual activities in which he was engaged, Christopher stresses the physical pleasures of various acts and argues that his initial reservations about particular practices (oral sex, anal sex) were broken down as he received physical pleasure from these activities and came to feel that it was only fair to reciprocate."

*'''Philip, quoted in: [[Richard Yuill]] (2010). "[http://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/interrogating-essential-moral-baselines-adult-child-sex Interrogating the Essential: Moral Baselines on Adult-Child Sex]", ''Thymos'', 4(2), pp. 149-167.'''
*:"Philip: [Aged 7] My first arousal of adult men was when I was in Africa. ... It was just my curiosity was piqued and I noticed that he was washing his genitals. He started to get an erection. ... I was curious to explore his body further. About three or four days later I crept into his bedroom. ... I think he was fast asleep and I started playing with his penis. ... I was just curious what an erection was. I think I’d experienced it a bit as a boy but they would come and go . . . and I certainly hadn’t seen anything as big as that. ... I was most excited by his sexual excitement. There was no sexual excitement for myself, it was just pure curiosity but he was clearly very aroused, and my touching him increased his arousal - that excited me more. I think it was just like childhood curiosity.
*:"Philip: There was a chap who lived in the apartment above ours called Paul. . . I got onto the bed with him and he just had his shorts on.... He didn’t resist me, my advances to touch him and stroke him physically but he was a bit taken aback when I tried to feel his genitals.
*:"Researcher: You mentioned the first experimentation, looking at men's erections. Can you recall the first time when you took it further, thinking about sexual activity?
*:"Philip: Paul actually on one occasion (when I was playing around with him and he was masturbating) inserted his finger into my backside, which really did excite me!
*:"Philip: We had a next-door neighbour . . . and I was probably about nine–ten years old. He was going through a divorce, and I had got to know him quite well. ... I asked him if it would be okay if I stopped over for the night. ... I got into bed with him and started playing around with him. And at first he objected, but I just persevered and got him fully sexually aroused and was masturbating him and trying to get him to orgasm. Because that was my objective: to get men to achieve orgasm. ... I persuaded him that I liked to have my bottom played with. . . . He loved my arse-hole. Of course that was my dream. And as our friendship (because it wasn’t a relationship) developed, we would get more and more bold about inserting things into my backside.
*:"Philip: Now I was twelve/thirteen, and I was definitely having much stronger sexual responses. I was having orgasms. I wasn't ejaculating as far as I can remember at that time. . . I used to get him to do risky things like put his fingers inside me when we were at the swimming baths in the cubicle drying afterwards. That was quite a turn on: the fact that it was in such a public environment, and I think the power I had over him in the sexual department. . . I could wrap him round my finger to have sex. It was quite easily done and it was me that made the advances... He just identified as a sexual man and saw me as this curious boy who liked his arse being played with.
*:"Researcher: Did he at any time give pleasure to you through masturbation?
*:"Philip: I used to masturbate myself. He would occasionally do it but I wasn't really interested in that. My orgasms came through being screwed, the friction of rubbing my body against the sheets. The masturbating element really developed from my playing with him but I could quite easily get orgasms from being buggered.
*:"Philip: This was a much older man (in his mid-fifties). Whereas the neighbour was in his thirties (a very virile docker) the older man was much more intelligent, more cultured and the relationship between ourselves was far more cerebral. I'd go round, and we would read and listen to music... It was a more intelligent, mature relationship than the one I’d had with the docker, which had really been seduction on my part, very physical. . .This person didn't have a huge penis unlike the docker, but that didn’t bother me. This was a different relationship. We did things together, camping. . . . The friendship I had with the docker (the physical friendship) there was no sort of mental connection at all. I went round there purely to get my rocks off. But with the older bloke. ... I wanted to learn more about music, about literature. It was more of an intellectual side. It was very good and there was equally, if not more, stimulation from the intellectual side than the physical side. Maybe every couple of weeks we would have sex. It was just masturbatory sex.
*:"Researcher: You mentioned that you always had an interest in adult men?
*:"Philip: Yeah! I would say that from the age of seven onwards that my focus on sex and men have always been more mature men.... In all the relationships and friendships I was involved in, I knew exactly what I was doing, and knew what I set out to do and was fully in control. And there were times as a boy, I travelled to and from school by train . . . and you would occasionally get old men into the apartment. ... Sometimes I’d get turned on by that and hope that something happened and I’d engineer a situation. I’d play with my crotch or something to see if they were watching out the corner of their eye but if ever a man made an approach on me that would terrify me. ... I had to at all times be the seducer and initiator, and I think that was right and proper because I was a child and I knew my circumstances, I knew I was smaller and they were bigger and stronger men and I knew what rape was, and knew what physical assault was, and I wasn’t going to let that happen to me. ... It never happened to me!"

*'''Ian Bernard''', [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnSixDLrGlw Free Talk Live], 2010 [https://fstube.net/w/vESCJvnnpGe4jqRMX2gtEH backup].
*:Summary: Radio show host pursued relations as an 11 year old boy, and refuses to back down. Co-host says he is unusually well-adjusted and doesn't need to see a psychiatrist, as callers express their disbelief.
*'''[https://www.counterpunch.org/2005/01/29/the-passion-of-paul-shanley/ The Passion of Paul Shanley], 2005.'''
*:Summary: A famous priest is accused of multiple sexual relations with adolescent boys and men. JoAnn Wypijewski of CounterPunch explains the nuance behind what media are presenting as a simple case of sexual predation.
*'''[https://fstube.net/w/6ij9noaketMafmBdsGVHqg Scotty Bowers - Excerpts from the 2018 movie] by Matt Tyrnauer, "Scotty and the Secret History of Hollywood"'''.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20040823204921/http://www.logicalreality.com/openbb/read.php?TID=164 Pluto], on the Logical Reality forum.'''
*:Emotional need for sex with a boy, at 56, after enjoying the reverse long ago. Pluto's early childhood experience involved showering with a grown man, and enjoying sexual contact. At the time of the act, it would have most certainly been disapproved of, but there was no moral panic in place to rob him of his self-worth. "Yes, I did have sex with an adult when I was very young--10, 11, 12 years old--and I treasure and cherish the memories... [...] I was not hurt in any way by it. i only wish there had been more times when he fooled around with me."

*'''Kevin, from "[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/01oct01c_my_father.htm My Father and I]", Kids Speak Out forum at allaboutsex.org'''
*:Positive man-boy incest is interrupted by a mother. "My father molested me from the time I was two till I was 15. We would lie naked and he would play with my penis. Then he would give me oral sex. When I was old enough I then started sucking him too. He never hurt me or tried to have anal sex with me, even though I wanted him to. I had anal sex with him, a few times, once my father decided my penis was big enough. My father and I would plan things around the times where we could meet and make each other feel good. My mother found out and two months ago my father was sent to prison. What my father did to me was not rape, at all. He never hurt me. In fact, I looked forward to spending the time with him but my mother and the police don't seem to listen."

*'''[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/19/national/main2104978.shtml Mark Foley]'''
*:Former American Republican, at 13-years-old. "The Rev. Anthony Mercieca, 72, described several encounters that he said Foley might perceive as sexually inappropriate, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune reported. They include massaging Foley while the boy was naked, skinny-dipping together at a secluded lake in Lake Worth and being nude in the same room on overnight trips. "Once maybe I touched him or so ... but I didn't, it's not something you call rape or penetration or anything like that," Mercieca told West Palm Beach station WPTV in a phone interview. "He seemed to like it, you know? So it was sort of more like a spontaneous thing". Mercieca said."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20111005050911/http://richarddawkins.net/articles/118 Richard Dawkins] (biologist)'''
*:From an article of his, that despite not being exactly sex-positive, goes as far as is 'acceptable' in playing down the impact of nonviolent, situational fondling of children by priests, while attacking the religious dogmas that sometimes cause so much shame after such encounters. "Being fondled by the Latin master in the Squash Court was a disagreeable sensation for a nine-year-old, a mixture of embarrassment and skin-crawling revulsion, but it was certainly not in the same league as being led to believe that I, or someone I knew, might go to everlasting fire. As soon as I could wriggle off his knee, I ran to tell my friends and we had a good laugh, our fellowship enhanced by the shared experience of the same sad pedophile. I do not believe that I, or they, suffered lasting, or even temporary damage from this disagreeable physical abuse of power. Given the Latin Master’s eventual suicide, maybe the damage was all on his side."

*'''[https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/fortuyn-favoured-depraved-2507525 Pim Fortuyn]'''
*:Populist, anti-immigration, homosexual politician from the Netherlands (deceased): "Fortuyn's first experience occurred when he was five years old. "The Dutch soldier asks if I want to see his tent. That's what I want. I like it and they all are sleeping on the ground in a sleeping-bag. I ask if it is hard and cold to sleep on the ground. Oh no, come here. Together we crawl in his sleeping-bag. The soldier asks my name and I ask his name. “He is called Arie and he asks if I like that name. Yes, I think that's a nice name and I lie beside him, nice and warm." Fortuyn then described a close sexual encounter with the soldier before leaving his sleeping-bag "to go and play outside." He added: "Can I come back tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow I may come back, says Arie." A few pages later, he describes another incident: "I went to the park for a walk, it was very silent and the sun was shining. On the bench sat a young fellow. I stood still, curious." Fortuyn relates another sexual encounter - this time in explicit detail. He concludes: "I was frightened and ran away to my home, to my mother. Excited, I ran into the room. My mother looked at me searchingly and asked what had happened. Nothing, of course. Watch out, little man, was the only thing she said. A glass of lemonade made me calm down. Yes, that was exciting." Most telling is his appraisal of these memories. "In chapter 1 about the 1950s, I wrote about my early sexual experiences, experiences that I see as an enrichment. Today, an experience like that in the park could easily lead to a complaint by parents to the police because of paedophilia, and the relevant young man would be in trouble. But why? "He didn't do me any harm. On the contrary, he showed me something that was incomprehensibly exciting and I could feel and touch it, but today we are ready to interfere with complete teams of professionals. By interfering in such an irritating and grown-up way in the world of children, we make an enormous problem of something that for a child is no problem at all and is only exciting.""

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20111121032020/http://www.mwillett.org/Debate/viewtopic.php?p=121929#121929 Todd Nickerson]'''
*:A self-declared pedophile writes: "I did have a single sexual encounter with an adult when I was a child, though I would hardly describe it as traumatic or even unpleasant. My memory of being touched—and that’s all it amounted to—is that it was, at most, a little confusing since I didn’t really understand what was taking place. Not that I really minded, though. In fact, after it occurred, I went immediately to a relative and bragged to her about it."

*'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voor_een_verloren_soldaat Voor Een Verloren Soldaat] (For A Lost Soldier), 1986 autobiographical novel by Rudi van Dantzig, made into a movie in 1992'''
*:Acclaimed ballet dancer and choreographer Rudi van Dantzig tells the story of his brief romance at twelve with a Canadian soldier at the end of World War II.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080517041605/http://www.freewebtown.com/newsstand/archive/0316.html Unnamed Indian boy], quoted in: "I found myself in the victim syndrome", ''Hindustan Times'', 21 January 2006.'''
*:Newspaper article about M8 + M19 sex and the victim syndrome "Once I was about 15, I grew familiar with terms like paedophilia and child abuse and started to realise what I had been through. This too had a downside. I found myself in 'the victim syndrome'. I started using this incident as an excuse to endear myself to people and constantly looked at myself as victimised in relationships and emotional circumstances. This persists even today but I try to rid myself of this misery."

*'''Sateryn on the IIDB forum<ref>Offline and no archives found for: '''iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=3730495&postcount=250'''</ref>'''
*:Got a 'kick' out of illegal sex play with adults, at five, but disliked the following investigation "you know the most traumatic part about being molested as a child? sitting in a room with your parents and a therapist staring at you, forcing you to take naked cloth dolls and use them to put on a puppet show to show the adults what happened to you. the physical act of it? the molestation itself? hell, it was interesting... i was 5, it was something new, and i lucked out in that it wasn't violent, just people getting their rocks off - and quite frankly i got a kick out of it, at the time."

*''' Member of the IIDB forum<ref>Offline and no archives found for: '''iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3924233#post3924233'''</ref>'''
*:Another member comments about their indifference, and expands later on. "I remember one incident when I was 9 or so and my uncles were 20 and 21. They brought me and a cousin who's about my age to their room and we engaged in oral sex. It was a one-time thing, but I didn't repress the memory, felt ashamed by it, or otherwise damaged by it. We didn't talk about it though, and it doesn't come to mind often. Is that counted as abuse? I had no strong feelings about it then or now. [...] I don't claim that it didn't affect me then, but it affected me in the way sexual activities affect us at that age - that of guilt of doing something I was taught is wrong or shameful. It's the same feeling I got then after masturbation and sexual experimentation with my friends, male and female."

*'''[https://www.boychat.org/messages/967788.htm Hangtwenty] on BoyChat, December 2005.'''
*:1950s boylove with an oversexed 12-year-old. "....The most intense affair happened between 1956 and 1958.... The boy, who was 12 when it started, not only told me that I was his 'best friend', but that I was his 'only friend'...! ....Since we both lived with our parents then, and both lived in the same apartment house, we were together alot... His intensity to be sexual with me was much stronger than mine was for him..!"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[https://secure.boychat.org/messages/1219065.htm Sick Rose (BC)] [https://archive.is/irc9j mirror]'''
*:Excellent testimony on pederastic relationships in a boys school. Includes close attention to how one of the participants subsequently grew up gay, and then reoriented his story of consensual sex with a teacher for political reasons.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080724184401/http://www.inquisition21.com/article~view~69~page_num~2.html Gerald], quoted by Inquisition 21'''
*:Convicted for loving sex with teenage boys, after they made unfortunate spousal choices.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100420224516/http://www.martijn.org/info/2000_002_EN.html Dirk Tieleman], quoted in "Tieleman op eenzame hoogte", ''OK magazine'' 74'''
*:A journalist claims that a slightly coercive relationship worked to his own benefit. "When I was thirteen, a boy of seventeen sexually used me for a period of time with slight coercion, but I never really felt bad about that. He jacked me off and forced me to jack him off, and at first I felt uncomfortable about that, but after a few times I began to enjoy it myself and the aspect of coercion trailed off. Off course, being a thirteen-year-old boy, I found it curious that I was doing such things with another boy, but I realize now that this first sexual experience has helped me approach girls - to whom I was far more attracted - confidently and without qualms later on. That first sexual experience with a boy was, to me, the perfect introduction to sexuality. [...] In the past years, since the Dutoux scandal, I've been hearing people say all the time that any form of sex with children would automatically lead to great disturbances and 'damage the innocent child's soul beyond repair', but I feel confident in stating with absolute certainty that I haven't suffered the least bit of damage from my first sexual experiences with that older boy - not as a child, and not now. On the contrary: I have always had a very normal and healthy sex life, perhaps even because of that first experience."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080430072153/http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_553687.html Kevin B. Johnson's boyfriend], quoted in: Wills, Rick. "Sexual abuse charges leveled against Seneca Valley instructor", ''Tribune Review'', February 22, 2008.'''
*:"The second boy [15/16?] described a sexual relationship with Johnson that began when the youth was a freshman in 2004 and continued until last month. He told police, "I am not a victim. I was a willing participant," according to the affidavit."

*'''Boylover.net member on experiences as an 11-year-old boy'''
*:"We piled back into the limo and it drove us to Toronto where we went to a stage play. I don’t remember what we saw because my head was still spinning about the fact that this attractive man, one who could have any female he wanted, was in love with me and was doing all this to make this night as special as he could. After the play, we headed for home. Limo drivers must have orders to ignore whatever they see going on in the back because ours got quite an eyeful. He was treated to the sight of an eleven-year-old boy and a nineteen-year-old man acting like boyfriends. We kissed, we petted, and we worked each other into an erotic frenzy, a frenzy for which there could only be one consummation."

*'''Boylover.net member on intercourse'''
*:"I was 10 and it was with an Adult Friend. I did not, nor do I now think I was abused. (well not by my AF anyway) I liked it. We only ever did the things I wanted to do."

*'''Gieles, Frans (2006). "[http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/sot/offender.htm#3-6a_narrative_force 'But sir, you are an offender!': Narrative coercion as method of behavior modification]"'''
*:"Craisatie (1998, among others page 117) describes a client who, as a child, had frequented a group, which in the book was called 'a child pornography ring'. As a child, he never had seen this as being abuse. Contrarily, he said that he'd gotten a lot of love, comradeship and care, which he did not get at home. Craisatie describes it as an example of successful treatment that his client ultimately abandoned his feeling of being loved and changed it into the feeling of being abused although this occurred only gradually and very late in the treatment process [...] Ehrenreich (2004) describes a man who for nineteen years was held in a closed clinic. He denied his offense, thus refused to speak about it, thus he did not cooperate, thus year after year his stay was renewed. Then, he changed tack: he 'acknowledged' his offense, he spoke about it, he did exactly what the therapists ordered, and said that he benefited from their treatment. This was the only way to be released. The man has been released. Then it turned out that his accusers had lied about everything they had said, under high pressure of the police: there never had been an offense."

*'''Boy in Dan Tsang's [https://library.lol/main/E9CBDB46170B45354650BEFF403D8341 ''The Age Taboo'' (1981). London: Gay Men's Press].'''
*:"It's often not the man who goes out to seduce the boy, but the other way round. In my first experience, I did the seducing. . . . It is mostly the boys who go out in search of sexual satisfaction from men..."

*'''[http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bta8oOuDtoI Man(?) on YouTube]'''
*:An extremely detailed account that was hindered by a voice concealer. Person had a positive relationship as youngster, and has met pedophiles.

*'''[http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/net/2007/10/19/orphans.admit.clown.fondled.them.html Carlock the Clown]'''
*:Some young children pleaded with authorities not to press charges against a clown who played with them sexually. "Surprisingly though, when asked by American embassy officials if they wanted their "Kuya Paul" charged in court for abusing them, all the three kids pleaded with the officials not to file a case against Carlock. "Please don't file a case against Kuya Paul. He is a good man, he is a good man," the kids said. "The kids told me that they loved the man so much because he was so good to them. They said they treated the man as their father. Paul gave them candies, lollipops," Karasuyama said." The clown was eventually [http://web.archive.org/web/20100325034303/http://illinoishomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=9747 tasered and killed by police].

*'''[http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/i-teenage-friend-michael-jackson-5083645 Terry George on "phone sex" with Michael Jackson]''' 
*:According to George, Michael Jackson engaged him in "phone sex" at the age of 13: "I do not feel like a victim and I never did feel like a victim," he said. See [http://www.terrygeorge.co.uk/about/michael-jackson/ directory] for other articles.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100325044759/http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/43/confessions-of-a-proud-pedophile-phillip-distasio-says-getting-caught-was-all-part-of-his-plan Phillip Distasio]'''
*:Imprisoned for life; a proud pedophile activist who had a relationship with an older man at 12. "Distasio describes himself as a second-generation pedophile: at the age of 12, he began a relationship with an older man, a swimming instructor named Charlie, at a boys' club in Massachusetts. He says he's known about his proclivity since age 9. "To me," he says, "it is as valid as any other sexual orientation.""

*'''[http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r18540381-Please-Read-Think-and-Stand-UP- "Jay78" commenting on broadbandreports.com]''' 
*:"Also, when I was about 6 years of age I was sexually "used" without coercion by an adult family member in ways that today would have put that person in prison. I almost forgot about that seemingly anecdotal incident and memory until I was reminded of it by the current hysteria over that kind of thing. Compared with the other things I experienced, that was not even worth thinking of, I would never hurt that person who did that and have a good relationship with that person today."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/rivas_howard_miller.htm "Howard Miller" as told to Titus Rivas, Ipce]'''
*:"We would zip our sleeping bags together and he would tickle and massage me all over. He would tell me dirty jokes while helping me with my homework and get me aroused. Then we would masturbate together. He satisfied me and then himself or we satisfied ourselves while watching each other. I thought that he was fascinating to look at and occasionally touch but not to satisfy. [...] I have only good feelings about what happened but am sad that most people will never be able to understand that. I also wish that we didn't have to worry about each other getting into trouble with the society over what happened. [...] Because I had such a positive experience as a child I believe that I can say with absolute certainty that sometimes such relationships can be very positive. Notice I don't say that they always will be, but heck more than 50% of marriages end in divorce. Most real child abuse occurs in families. Should then marriage be outlawed?"

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080929074056/http://www.boylover.net/info/scrapbook/kolya_03.html Loren Robb and Kolya - Bulletin]'''
*:A man tells of his loving relationship with a young native Arctic boy who he brought up in New Zealand.

*'''[http://youfoundme.org/mylife.html My Life - Youfoundme.org]'''
*:A very long testimony written by a person known to a contact of Newgon. "It was the end of that summer that I learned what real heartache felt like. Sex was never the dominating factor in my relationship with James. I wanted to fool around a lot more than he did but I just liked being with him. He knew so much about construction and getting things to work that it was like being at school all the time except it was fun. Like any kid who hears his dad tell the same joke all the time I got tired of hearing "plumbings easy boy, just remember shit flows down hill". What I really didn't want to hear was the day James told me we couldn't do the sex thing anymore. I don't recall his exact words but something to the effect "this just isn't right or this isn't normal". I was crushed. It (our friendship) seemed so normal and great to me that I didn't understand why he felt that way. My suffering didn't come from the hands of an abuser, my suffer came from the words of a man who feared for my wellbeing. I kept telling him I was okay with things and nothing needed to change. Change did come and even my begging wouldn't get him to monkey around with me. It happened once or twice after the big talk but it was never the same."

*'''"Keith" in O'Carroll, Tom (1980). ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm Paedophilia: The Radical Case]'', pp. 83-84.'''
*:"As a boy he became sexually mature at age twelve-and-a-half. "It was like the world was beginning to make sense, to take on purpose and meaning. [...] I regard my meeting with Mr. S., then aged twenty-six, as a critical turning point in my love life. Until then, sex was fun, felt good and left me only moderately guilty. Once I approached Mr. S. (Yes, I approached him) with my thirteen-year-old impatience for intimacy, he told no one, responded positively to my shaky advances (didn't even laught at me!) and simply embraced me. [...] Here was a masculine adult man (happily married even), who was interested in doing with me what I was already finding exciting with my boy-friends. And through this relationship a new dimension was added to my experience which has not occurred to me before - tenderness, affection and love. (...) This affection was, in its way, just as satisfying as the ecstatic orgasms that punctuated our days and nights together. I regard this man, this relationship as a turning point because I was never the same after knowing him for two years - I was more in tune with myself after that...".

*'''[[Frits Bernard|Bernard, Frits]] (1972). ''Sex met kinderen'', pp. 75-76.'''
*:A 25 year old man tells of a relationship struck up with a gay man when he was eight. They started having sex when he was ten, something that he enjoyed. The relationship lasts until he is 18.

*'''''Paedophilia - What It Means To The Child'' by [[Frits Bernard]], printed in [http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/panfull.htm PAN 3] (pp. 15 - 17)'''
**"I was about 13 when I had my first paedophile experience. [...] The man who brought me into touch with homosexuality and whom I even loved physically was, and still is, one of my dearest friends. I remember what a wonderful feeling it was when he satisfied me for the first time. I was not troubled in the least by worries over having done 'perverted things', probably because I had no idea of what such things were. [...] The only trouble I have had over this was when I first told my fiancée about it."
**"When I was seven I had contact with a man who was especially nice to me. He used to take me to his attic, sit me on his lap and play with me sexually. I thought it was very nice and enjoyed it. I always looked forward to Wednesday afternoons, the days when we saw each other. This went on for a long time. Later I had many contacts with other men, but never with boys my own age. One day I went with a waiter to his house. I was very interested and excited. We had unusually satisfying sex together. I must have been about 14. Back home I was restless and went to see him the very next day on my own initiative. We had intercourse about twenty times in the following period. [...] Now, after a good life, I can see these early contacts as very positive to my development. I would not like to have missed them and I do not envy the people who never had these opportunities."
**"When I was about eight years old I got to know a man in the street who thought I played very nicely. He invited me out for a bicycle ride, and later to visit his home. [...] From him I received love, which actually I had never known (not, I mean, in the way I know it at present from my wife). [...] Later, when I was ten or eleven, we had sex with each other, something I always enjoyed."
**Several further accounts involving slightly older minors are available in the article.

*'''[[Frits Bernard|Bernard, Frits]] (1979). "[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/pan/htmfiles/pan3p13.htm Paedophilia: What it means to the child]" ''[[PAN]]'', November 1979.'''

:*A heterosexual male recalls at age 24: "I had my first sexual contact with an older man in Rotterdam... It was nothing more than each of us quickly masturbating each other, looking shyly around us. Once this corner was turned a lot of other experiences followed. I can't say much about them, just sex and nothing more. One of the reasons nothing lasted was that the men were dead scared of being trapped. The iniative always came from me. I used to wear my shortest and cutest shorts and stroll across the market squares and through the busiest streets of Rotterdam until I saw someone I thought was 'like that' and then I allowed myself to be 'seduced'. That went on until I was 17. [...] I have no regrets about this period. I am only sorry that I never had what I was really looking for: an older friend with whom I could enjoy not only sex but all kinds of things, someone who could teach me about everything."

:*An engaged, heterosexual male recalls at age 23: "I was about 13 when I had my first paedophile experience (...) The man who brought me into touch with homosexuality and whom I even loved physically was, and still is, one of my dearest friends. I remember what a wonderful feeling it was when he satisfied me for the first time." Despite this, the man makes it clear that he does not approve of pedophilic contact, as it happens today.

:*A heterosexual adult recalls at age 37: "I must have been 14 [or] 15 at the time of my first sexual encounter with a man of about 30. I enjoyed these experiences. (...) I am now married and have four children. People with this inclination should fit into society and our society should accept this as natural. But it will be a very long time before this happens. (...) My earlier contacts of this kind were so upsetting to my parents that, at the time, I always had the feeling that I was dong something wrong. Now I see it as part of a personal experience which I would not like to see removed from my life."

:*A gay man recalls at 67, the following contact with a 35-year-old man: "When I was 7, I had contact with a man who was especially nice to me. He used to take me to his attic, had me sit on his lap and we had sexual contact with each other. I really found it pleasant and enjoyed it. I was always looking forward to Wednesday afternoons, the days we saw each other. This went on for a long period of time. [...] Now, as a nearly 68-year-old man, who has had a good life, I regard these contacts I used to have as very positive for my development. I would not have wanted to miss them, and I do not envy people who have never not had these opportunities. [...] Later I had many contacts with other men, but never with boys my own age. One day I went with a waiter to his house. I was very interested and excited. We had unusually satisfying sex together. I must have been about 14. Back home I was restless and went to see him the very next day on my own initiative. We had intercourse about twenty times in the following period."

:*A straight man recalls at 25, the following relationship: "When I was about eight years old I got to know a man in the street who thought I played very nicely. He invited me out for a bicycle ride, and later to visit his home (...) Gradually, we got to know each other... and I came to realise that he was homosexual. This did not shock me; I just wanted to know more about it. (...) From him I received love, which actually I had never known (...) Later, when I was ten or eleven, we had sex with each other, some-thing I always enjoyed. That lasted until I was eighteen, when I started going steady with a girl. When I became engaged I was able to tell my future wife with an easy mind about my youthful experiences. She could appreciate the whole thing very well. [We have] an especially good marriage, an especially fine sexual relationship, and an especially dear little daughter."

*'''Björn, quoted in: Vogel, Wolf (1997) ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/rivas/boys_men/bjorn.htm Heimliche Liebe: Eros zwischen Knabe und Mann]'', Hamburg: Jahn & Ernst. Translator says the following: "includes the remarkable case of Björn and Jan, located in a major town in the North of Germany."'''
*:"When Björn (32) was a young boy, he met his adult friend Jan (45) and they still had a sexual relationship at the time of the interview. As a 10-year-old boy, Björn felt attracted to social worker Jan because of the latter's revolutionary ideas and Björn tried to provoke him with a lot of questions and remarks about sexuality. One day, when Björn was eleven and a half, they happened to meet near the town's riverbank. Björn tried to get Jan sexually interested in him and when they met at Jan's place he finally succeeded. Björn really wanted Jan to penetrate him, but Jan declined the offer and it took Björn a year to convince him that he was not afraid of getting physically hurt in the process. The boy really enjoyed this type of penetrative sexual contact and now that he's an adult, he's still doing it quite often with Jan. He remarks that if one wishes to speak of seduction in this relationship, it was him who was the seducing party. Their relationship has always stayed a secret for the people in their environment. Jan used to help Björn with the problems he was having with his parents, and also with his educational and professional progress."

*'''Mydans, Seth. "[http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/05/world/in-a-philippine-town-child-prostitution-despite-protests-is-a-way-of-life.html In a Philippine Town, Child Prostitution, Despite Protests, Is a Way of Life]", ''New York Times'', February 5, 1989.'''
*:"Drive into this green and quiet town [Pangsanjan, Philippines] 40 miles southeast of Manila and groups of men will run alongside your car, banging on the windows, offering a choice of the local attractions: A boat ride to the scenic waterfall or a child prostitute. (...) When Mrs. Zaide's group, the Council of Citizens for the Protection of Children, pasted up posters warning against prostitution, the citizens of Pagsanjan tore them down. Stones were thrown at the houses of council members. When the Immigration Commission a year ago arrested 22 foreigners who were engaged in prostitution rings, some parents, the recipients of their largesse, testified in their defense. (...) Estafania Aldaba-Lim, a former minister of social welfare who has studied the Pagsanjan situation, said local residents discovered the easy money in male prostitution when American filmmakers came to town to shoot scenes for "Apocalypse Now." "I suppose some gays with the crew fell in love with the young macho boatmen,'" she said, "and then it went to much younger boys, down to 9, 10, 11 years old, and the whole town got in on it." (...) But, Miss Zaide said child prostitution continues. One Swiss national, she said, married the sister of his 15-year-old male lover and has applied to return home not with his wife but with his new brother-in-law. "The family is proud of it," Miss Zaide said. It flaunts his gifts, which include one of the better residences in town. At school, according to another member of Miss Zaide's group, children proudly display the new clothes, pocket money and other gifts that they receive from their patrons, tempting other children to follow their example. One Third of Boys Are Involved. Miss Zaide estimated that one-third of the youngsters have taken part in the sex trade in this town of 22,000, where 65 percent of the population is below the age of 18. When teachers confront the parents of these children, she said, the parents ask them, "What can you give us in exchange? Can you pay for my child's schooling? Can you give him an allowance? Can you build a home for us?""

*'''[http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/zeffirelli-had-homosexual-experiences-at-catholic-school_1014084 Franco Zeffirelli] (Italian film director), quoted in: "Zeffirelli Had Homosexual Experiences At Catholic School", ''World Entertainment News Network'', 20 November 2006.'''
*:"Sexual abuse is putting it too strongly. There was no penetration. "I felt sorry for the poor man. If I had realised what he had in mind, I would probably have given him what he wanted. I thought the priest felt a special affection for me, he was always kissing me. "(Homosexual experiences) are not always bad for boys. I don't think they make you homosexual. Sexual choice is made for you early on in life anyway - if you like girls, you like girls."

*'''Neil, quoted in: Birkett, D. (1997). ''"[http://www.deabirkett.com/pages/journalism_film/film/monsters_with_human_faces.htm The Devil Amongst Us - accompanying article]", ''The Guardian'', September 17, 1997.'''
*:"During my research I met Neil, a gay man now aged 40, who enjoyed having sex with adult men from the age of nine. "It seems to be politically correct, even within the gay movement, to be anti-paedophile. But when I ask gay male friends when they first had sex they say, 'Oh, ten, 11, 12, with a bloke down the road who was 22.' He was probably a paedophile!""

*'''Dan, quoted in: Newberger, Eli H. (1999). ''Bringing Up a Boy''. Perseus Books.'''
*:This is a general guide for parents. From the section on gay adolescents comes this:
*:"In ninth grade, Dan began sexual activity with men, some in their twenties, others in their thirties or older. He meets many of them in gay clubs. He also feels confident initiating contact with strangers in public, in stores, for example. He is diligent about safe sex and careful not to make himself vulnerable to sexual exploitation by drinking too much, but he has a considerable number of sexual contacts during a year."

*'''Brian, in [http://www.nambla.org/mglad.html a letter to the ''NAMBLA Bulletin''], Vol. 12, No. 8, Pg. 15, October 1991.'''
*:"When I was 13 years old I had my first sexual experience with someone older: my adult camp counselor. [...] During my third and final year I began having sexual desires for him, wanted him to kiss me, and tried to give him several hints. While other boys were working their way towards medals and projects they could take home, my project was to climb in bed with this man. My chance finally came on a rainy night after all of us went to bed. I could not sleep and instead I went into his private quarters where he invited me to climb under the sheets. He finally took the chance and fondled me finally kissing then sucking me over and over again. It was the most exciting sexual experience I have ever had. The next day and for the final week of camp we reacted toward each other as if nothing had happened. I left camp never to see or hear from him again.
*:As a gay man in my early 30s I am not now attracted to children but to older men; perhaps thinking of my counselor. But my case is one to refute the charges that once molested as a child, a person grows up to be a molester of his own. I was not molested. I was loved and I feel I am better for it."

*'''Bill, in [http://www.nambla.org/five-ten.html a letter to the ''NAMBLA Bulletin''], Vol. 12, No. 8, Pg. 15, October 1991.'''
*:"I am a 24-year-old white male who really wishes to join your organization. I firmly believe in all you stand for. I myself was shunned by society's rules and a small community's norms of acceptable behaviors. I was 13 and met a really nice 45-year-old man who really made me feel special. He liked me for what I was, not something that I could become. Sure, sex was a part of our relationship, but that wasn't the only thing. We enjoyed each others' company, sharing our thoughts and ideas on different topics, and setting our goals.
*:Well, needless to say, my parents found out and prohibited me from seeing him anymore. They also made me file a criminal complaint on him. He went to trial and was sentenced to 5 - 10 years on a variety of charges in which I had no say.
*:I told the judge that I consented to our relationship and what went along with it. He said that I was too young to make a "mature" decision."

*'''[http://www.nambla.org/nyu1983.html Harry Hay] (gay rights campaigner), comments given at a public forum on February 22, 1983, at New York University'''
*:"Between thirteen and fourteen, I had begun to hear about the fact that there are men who sometimes like boys, and I want very much to know about these things. I'd heard about this from the men who worked in the fields the year before. They told me about them; they called them “fairies.” And of course they didn’t call the usual civilities. I didn’t tell them that I was listening to every word they said and storing it up for future use. I knew that I wouldn’t be able to do anything about it that summer, but the following summer, when I was fourteen, I was bound and determined that I was going to do something about that. [...]
*:The point is that I was perfectly capable of handling myself and knowing exactly what I wanted. But this year I knew that I wanted to find a man to tell me what I wanted to know. So, at fourteen, you realize, I'm a child molester. I'm a child, and I'm molesting an adult till I find out what I want to know. And I found him, and he was shocked. Then he discovered that, rather than being a man, as he suspected that I was from the way I looked — my callouses on my hands, and the way I handled myself, and my clothing — that I was only a fourteen-year-old kid, and if anybody found out about it he'd be in jail for life, or, at least in California twenty-three years in that period. [...]
*:So, again, as I said, my offering is not as a member of NAMBLA, but in memory of that fourteen-year-old boy who was handled by Matt so long ago. And in memorial to Matt, I offer you my love."

*'''Zimmerman, Ann (1994). "[http://www.dallasobserver.com/1994-11-17/news/tell-mama-why-you-cry-part-i/5 'Tell Mama Why You Cry' (Part I)]," ''Dallas Observer'', November 17.'''
*:"The tape of Tim's interview could not be located, but according to Black's notes, Tim had seen his father touch his sister on her private parts on several occasions. "He stated his father tickles Lima on her private parts and she likes it. When questioned further, Tim revealed his father also touches him on his private parts...at his house...Tim stated he doesn't mind his father doing this."

*'''"En me vriendje houdt van mij: 23 verhalen uit het leven gegrepen", edited by Ben Füss and Gorrit Goslinga (Eindhoven: Stichting Uitgeverij NVSH, 1981)'''
*:"We had just moved and that was how I met a nice man, as a 13-year-old. We talked a lot, in his room. He was very interested in art and possessed a lot of books with pictures of works of art and sculpture. I had little interest for this but did not want to hurt Dick's feelings. Only the pictures that showed nudity captured my interest. I also tried to hide this. [...]" This interest was noticed by Dick and it led to Dick briefly caressing the boy's genitals. Dick was very cautious and tried to end it immediately. The boy was very eager to have additional sexual experiences and finally persuaded Dick to allow him a visit. One thing led to another and the end result was a tender sexual relationship that lasted for about six years. After the war he re-established a life-long friendship with Dick, though without the sexual aspect. He was there when Dick died at age 83. He adds: "The value of this relationship is something I continue to cherish till this very day."

*'''[http://www.jungsforum.net/politik/messages/159581.htm Anonymous, in Berliner Zeitung (Translation)]'''
*:"Being 52 now, I got a relationship with a man at the age of 8-9 of whom I was told later that he was a paedophile. The relationship went on until I was about 14 years old and we were lucky that it remained undiscovered and free of police enquiries. Even today, so many years later, I remember my big friend with gratitude, as he made my coming out as a gay person later on – and many other things in my life - a lot easier for me. Since then, I have met numerous people who also had [consensual] sexual relationships with adults as children and teenagers and who are not ashamed of this. It is easy to understand why such people never get in touch with abuse counseling agencies, because they really don't need such help. That's how such centres get a completely one-sided view of so-called victims of abuse.".

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Shane-mod.htm Shane] on his website'''
*:A 14-year-old gay boy in Australia says, “I have one really good adult friend that knows about my sexuality, … Steve has never tried anything sexual with me, although I often wish he would.”

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932399.htm Under My House . Tent Sleeping . Neighbors Bedroom] by Linca on BoyChat, July 2005.'''
*:A man recounts his first experiences of sex, including with an adult neighbor at 14: "[He] did with me ... what he had been wanting to do with me since I was 8 years old. We are friends to this day."

*'''Two posts by hyacinth on BoyChat: [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/BC-663921.htm May 2002] [1] and [http://www.boychat.org/messages/932570.htm July 2005] [2]'''
*:A man describes his childhood sexual experiences with adults. The first was anal sex with a benedictine monk at 14 years old: “I was't stupid, at 14 I knew my way around … He was very nice and very gentle, and I liked him alot.” [1] Next was a relationship that lasted for a year and a half with a man and his two sons. [2]

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Benjamin-LettersOfBoy.htm Letters of a Loving Boy--Excerpted letters and diaries of boys], edited by Jarod Benjamin, 1997.'''
*:A 14-year-old boy wrote a series of love letters, unsuccessfully courting an adult friend for a more intimate relationship.

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Mogenic-LikeGreece.htm Just Like Greece? — Gay Teen Dates Septuagenarian], an interview of "John" by Brandon K. Thorp in ''Mogenic'', June 2006.'''
*:A 22-year-old man talks about the 67-year-old man he met at the museum where they were both volunteering when he was 13. A friendship emerged based on unusually common interests for such a pair. The relationship evolved into mentoring and eventually romance, which became sexual two years later. They remained occasionally intimate for five years while the teenager also began to explore relationships with his age peers. Looking back on the man’s death when he was 20, he says, “He enhanced the quality of my youth, and his influence will likely enhance the quality of my entire adult life. And I enhanced his old age. We both got something out of it.”

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Aaron/index.htm Aaron], on his website'''
*:A 15-year-old boy talks about his adult lover on his website.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20110520030140/http://nambla.org/boys.htm Boys Speak Out on Man/Boy Love], NAMBLA, 1981.'''
*:NAMBLA published a book with first-person accounts of 29 boys about their relationships with older men. Titles include ''The Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me'' by Greg, 16, ''It Shouldn’t Be a Crime to Make Love'' by Bryan, 12, ''If It Wasn’t for Mark I’d Probably Be Dead Today'' by Carl, 14, ''I Need My Lovers'' by Tyrone, 16, and ''It Was Me Who Started It'' by Frank, 15.

*'''The perspective of a loving boy in [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Benjamin-BoysAndBoylovers.htm On Boys and Boylovers] by Jarod Benjamin, 1997.'''
*:Jarod Benjamin’s 1997 study of male-male pedophilia includes a section that reports on pedophile relationships from the point of view of boys in them. Reference is also made to 620 quotes of boys in Edward Brongersma’s [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557410038 Loving Boys].

*'''"[http://www.thinkandask.com/2006/042106-john.html Baseball, Boys, One Man on Illegal Love]", ''Think & Ask'', April 2006.'''
*:A boy happily participates in a sexual and emotional relationship with an older man beginning at age 12. "Jesse is less than half John's age and turned 15-years-old in April, but the boy is not his son. Jesse "is my lover," John said, "but the feelings are mutual, this is a consensual relationship." John met Jesse (not his real name) when the boy was homeless three years ago. [...] In Jesse's own words, "John knows me, he's here inside my head already, I mean all along. He is my dad, boyfriend, best friend, brother, all in one. He's great," he grins as he chats with a friend on the office computer. [...] "I brought it up and told him how I felt and offered to take care of him. That is when he said he was in love with me and never wanted to leave," John said."

*'''George, quoted in: Drew, D. and Drake, J. (1969). ''[https://www.greek-love.com/modern-europe/italy/war-time-naples-pederasty-initiation Boys For Sale].'''
*:NewgonWiki: A long and fascinating account of a man who was introduced to working boys during the second war. After returning, he then develops a relationship with a highly-sexed 11 year old nephew and they enjoy each others attentions well into his teens. The relationship aids, or does not impair the boy's adjustment as an adult.

*'''David, quoted in: Brongersma, Edward (1992). ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without Victims]''. Global Academic Publishers, Amsterdam.'''
*:Gay sex at 13 with a man in his mid-30s. "[O]ne day he started telling me about all the boys he'd had, and.., we finally ended up in the next room. We had a good time. I actually thought it was a little funny; at one point I even started to laugh. I don't know why -- I just had this weird need to laugh. [...] It was all so new. It was exciting. [...] (Interviewer: It [your relationship] all sounds very rosy...) Yes, it's really, really great."

*'''Unnamed 13/14-year-old boy, quoted in: "[http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/vigilance-vital-to-keeping-vile-paedophiles-at-bay-57221.html Vigilance vital to keeping vile paedophiles at bay]", ''Irish Independent'', 28 February 2007.'''
*:Claims that he consented, but others saw it very differently. "The young lad in question, who was 13 when his contact with these paedophiles began, claims that the sexual relationships he had with them were all consensual. In other words, he is stating that he was not raped, and that, to his mind at least, there was no abuse."

*'''logicalreality.com (defunct rational-humanist website) webmaster Pat Kelly on his forum, around 2006'''
*:Aged 5, Kelly helped a boy, 17, masturbate; was grateful for his invitation. He claims to have enjoyed hiding in a garage and masturbating the other boy, much like a schoolboy would enjoy being allowed into the staff room - the world of adults, with which he was so fascinated.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100324234047/http://www.martijn.org/info/OK41_EN_1.html Andre and Dennis], quoted in MARTIJN's OK Magazine'''
*:Educationalist on his relationship with a primary schoolboy. "Actually, it really lasted quite a while before the sexual side of our relationship started to take shape; I did not dare begin with this so soon. André does feel a bit guilty towards Dennis' mother that he never brought up the sexuality. He asks himself if she may not have figured out after all, because every now and then she has made remarks that could point to that. She does know that Dennis and André have a very physical contact with each other and kiss each other. Basically, he would like to talk about it, but, understandably, this is not easy. On being asked, Dennis had a clear opinion: 'She does not need to know!'"

*'''"[http://web.archive.org/web/20100828081631/http://www.martijn.org/page.php?id=1171983 11-year-old faggot]", quoted in: "Column 1: The Unicorn", ''Boys Speak Out on Man/Boy Love'' (fourth edition), July 1996. Previously published in NAMBLA Bulletin vol. 4 no. 10, December 1983.'''
*:"My first statement is that I want to dispel the image that a child is an ''innocent little puppy dog''. Children have plenty of knowledge about life, the universe and everything. But adults tend not to listen to their children. This ''innocent puppy'' syndrome represses the child's social, sexual, political, economical, and emotional desires. Children are not taken seriously and are expected to conform to a society in which they can't question its validity. This has got to stop! [...] A child is a sexual being. Therefore, children should have the right to explore any aspect of sexuality they desire to engage in. Why do parents, politicians, and police (the 3 p's) feed guilt into children that are sexually active? [...] Many people have been destroyed because of intergenerational relationships, people who could offer the world a lot if they had just not been persecuted for being different. Burning witches is a pastime which is just regaining popularity in the States."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/BC-146796.htm My Story: A story of a boy] by Elf on BoyChat, October 1998.'''
*:A man in his mid-20s tells his story. When he was nine or ten years old, he responded willingly to the seduction of a 16- or 17-year-old neighbor boy. They had a passionate love affair for over a year until they were discovered and his father beat him savagely. The older boy's family disappeared from town. This man wrote of that affair as the best thing that ever happened to him and attributed his deep problems at the time of writing to the brutal way it was torn away from him.

*'''"[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Spike/xaboutme.htm Spike]" on his website'''
*:A 15-year-old boy writes about his adult lover: "When I was 10, I found myself a mentor, a wonderful old man that needed me as much as I needed him. ... J has been the best thing that could ever have happened to me. Everything I am today I owe to J. He and Mom are both educated people who believe that I must prepare myself for adulthood by learning how to learn, how to think for myself, and how to believe in myself ... Mom sees the results of my association with J, and she could not be more pleased."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Hoby-mod.htm Hoby] on his website'''
*:A boy proclaims his interest in adult men and says, "You should be able to love whoever you want when you want and as long as you both happy it dont matter what anyone else thinks."

*'''''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Arlekin/complain-mod.htm My Complaints]'' by David Alejandro, December 1996, on his website.'''
*:A 13-year-old boy makes an impassioned plea for sexual freedom: "I want to love and be loved by whom I want. For the last two years I have an older friend. I am not gay, I like girls. He doesn't, but we understand each other very well. It is nobody's business what we do or don’t do. ... Stop protecting me, please!" (Note: His site history page indicated that he was 13 when he posted this page and 15½ in June 1999. The English index pages said that he lived in the "Land of the Incas.")

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Stefan/index.htm Stefan] on his web page'''
*:A 12-year-old in Holland says, "I will tell you about my BEST friend. He’s 28 and works at home. I love him the most in the world and he loves me. He says I'm the cutest boy in the world."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20101128082130/http://www.scottohara.com/obit.htm Scott O'Hara], quoted in his obituary at the Spirit of Stonewall Press Conference, New York City, June 24, 1994.'''
*:The publisher of Steam magazine says, "When I was 12 and 13 years old I would have joined NAMBLA in a minute, because I knew I was gay and I wanted to go out and get laid, not just read The Gay Mystique all my life; I needed personal contact."

*'''Ik Wilde Meer! ("[http://web.archive.org/web/20100828071543/http://www.martijn.org/info/Martijn/martijn02.pdf I Want More!]") in Martijn (PDF, 6 Mb), December 1980, page 16-18, in Dutch.'''
*:A married man reports on his 6-year-long relationship with a man who showed him erotic art and masturbated him. The relationship later turned platonic and the younger man was at the older's deathbed 37 years later.

*'''[http://www.boylover.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/194.html tribute to frank] by mick15 on BoyLover.net, December 7, 2005.'''
*:A teenaged boy describes his loving, sexual relationship with his soccer mentor, who had recently died.

*'''I want to speak out!!!!!!!! by "15 yr old boy" on BoyChat, September 2000.'''
*:A 15-year-old boy writes about his adult lover: "He is the best thing that has ever happened to me. ... I wish this world would just open its eyes and see that relationships like this are healthy and good for boys my age—but yes only if the boy wants the relationship."

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/Adam-mod.htm There is Magic Out There] by Joshua Adam on his website.'''
*:A 13-year-old in the 10th grade writes about the emotional support he gets from his older friend, Angel, who is helping him overcome the hatred cast upon him by his family and school for liking other boys. Angel and Adam have never met in person and do not plan to do so. Their relationship is entirely nonsexual, although it is definitely one of love and mentorship.

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932397.htm count me IN !!! :))] by siao on BoyChat, July 2005. '''
*:A man recounts his first experience of sex with an adult at seven years old: “suddenly fun was "in" … gosh, what was that twirling feeling which went all thru me ???” He also speaks of such encounters with many other men, saying, “NOT A SINGLE ONE EVER ABUSED ME ! I was free to say 'YES!!!!' and also knew how to say 'no' if there were ever anything I might not want.”

*'''[http://www.boychat.org/messages/932440.htm A long and varied career by Ambar] on BoyChat, July 2005.'''
*:A man recounts his earliest sexual experiences, including with his best friend’s father at eight years old: “He became my second very, very, very best friend and so began a wonderful, loving relationship. I still adore that man :-)”

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]

[[fr:Témoignages: Adulte mâle avec mineur mâle]]

Nettie Pollard

2026-08-02T21:13:05Z

Prue: /* Feminists Against Censorship and Later Years */

<div style="margin-right: 25px; float: left;">__TOC__</div>[[File:Nettie 01.clean.jpeg|200px|thumb|Nettie Pollard in her later years, wearing her GLF badge.]]'''Janet (Nettie) Marian Mackenzie Pollard''' (6th September 1949 - 25th December 2025), known in life as '''Nettie Pollard''', was a pioneering British lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner. She is known primarily for her early involvement with the UK branch of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Liberation_Front# Gay Liberation Front] (GLF, founded in 1970), her work with the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL, later [[wikipedia:Liberty_(advocacy_group)|Liberty]]), and her involvement with the group [[wikipedia:Feminists_Against_Censorship|Feminists Against Censorship]]. Nettie attended and helped to organize the UK's first Gay Pride March, which took place in London on the 1st of July, 1972.<ref>Alastair James, [https://www.attitude.co.uk/uncategorised/worlds-first-ever-pride-march-in-1972-remembered-by-gay-liberation-front-veterans-403931/ World's first-ever Pride march in 1972 remembered by Gay Liberation Front veterans] (''Attitude Magazine'', 24 July 2022); cf. Peter Scott-Presland's obituary for Nettie (cited below), which describes Nettie as a "planner" of the march.</ref>

[[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|Similar to many early gay and sexual liberation activists]] who had lived through a time where homosexuality was a "stigma symbol" - as Nettie's friend [[Ken Plummer]] (1973) put it - where to "be publicly known as a homosexual [was] to invite your employer to sack you, your parents to reject you, the law to imprison you, the doctor to cure you, the moralist to denounce you, [...] and the queer basher to kill you" (''Ibid''.),<ref>See [[Ken Plummer]], [https://kenplummer.com/2013/01/30/early-research-awareness-of-homosexuality/ "Awareness of Homosexuality"] (1973).</ref> Nettie was sympathetic towards other sexual minorities including [[MAP]]s and transgender people.

==Early Life==

Named Janet, but always known as Nettie, she was the daughter of committed Communist parents Jack and Ursula, a civil servant and feminist. Nettie was a vegetarian from infancy, and lost her sense of smell after being hit by a trolleybus. She followed Jack into King Alfred School, a progressive establishment in the London suburb of Golders Green.<ref>Information freely adapted from an obituary by [[Peter Scott-Presland]], [https://www.attitude.co.uk/life/nettie-pollard-obituary-lesbian-activist-civil-rights-515061/ Remembering Nettie Pollard: pioneering lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner] (''Attitude'', 2 March 2026).</ref> In an interview with the London School of Economics (LSE), Nettie described feeling "out of place" as an adolescent. She felt she did not "fit in," partly because of her underhung jaw, of which a dentist reportedly told her: "we can break your jaw and push it back; otherwise, how else are you going to get a boy?"<ref>[https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/Documents/Detail/nettie-pollard/638417 Nettie Pollard [Semi-structured interview with Nettie Pollard of the British Gay Liberation Front conducted as part of research on the GLF badge.<nowiki>]</nowiki>] (London School of Economics / LSE, Gay Liberation Front Oral Histories project, 06/06/2023). Library source code: HCA/GLF/19/07. </ref>

In 1971, when Nettie was 21, she heard about the GLF. Her father Jack read about the GLF in a newspaper, and asked Nettie "this looks exciting, shall we go?" The pair went together to Covent Garden, where Nettie was stunned to discover people talking of revolution and non-monogamy.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

==Early Sexual Liberation and the GLF==
[[File:874405314-555791042-Nettie 02.jpeg|200px|thumb|right|A young Nettie Pollard, likely pictured in the 1970s.]]
The first meeting of the Gay Liberation Front (GLF) took place on 13 October 1970, in a basement classroom at the London School of Economics. It was instigated by Aubrey Walters and Bob Mellors, who had been influenced by the development of the GLF in the USA following the Stonewall Riots. It was the beginning of a 3 year period of great activity, including demonstrations, debates, street theater, the establishment of a new gay press, and the establishment of communes.<ref>An account of the GLF entitled ''No bath but plenty of bubbles: an oral history of the Gay Liberation Front, 1970-1973'' was written by Lisa Power.</ref><ref>See also, Aubrey Walter, ''Come Together: The Years of Gay Liberation 1970–73'' (1980).</ref> As described in an obituary for Nettie by [[Peter Scott-Presland]], Nettie "threw herself into the counter-psychiatry group, which campaigned against the idea that homosexuality was a disease. Out of this group came the radical self-help group Icebreakers, of which she was a founder member. Rejecting “objectivity” in counselling, Icebreakers offered instead the positive role model of out and proud homosexuals."<ref>''Op. cit.''</ref>

The counter psychiatry group had started in 1970, and included [[Jeffrey Weeks]] and [[wikipedia:Mary_Susan_McIntosh|Mary McIntosh]] as members.<ref>Nettie and McIntosh have been photographed together. See [https://archives.lse.ac.uk/records/MCINTOSH/M3765/15 Photograph (colour printout) showing McIntosh and others on stage at Gay Pride, 1995 for 25th Anniversary of Gay Liberation Front, annotated on reverse] [LSE Library Archives].</ref> The group had published the pamphlet ''Psychiatry and the Homosexual: A brief analysis of oppression'' (1973), written by 6 gay men, before Nettie joined the group.<ref>The document can be [https://www.scribd.com/document/596894250/Psychiatry-and-Homosexual read on Scribd].</ref> It was in this group that [[wikipedia:Andrew_Hodges|Andrew Hodges]] first wrote about [[Alan Turing]] - then an unknown figure - which would eventually snowball and culminate in Turing become a revered homosexual icon (despite Turing likely being an [[MAP]] / boylover)...<ref>See [https://fstube.net/w/dPne9BxPAaL2ooYUDXbCht Alan Turing Documentary Excerpts] (Freespeechtube).</ref><ref>See Andrew Hodges, [[wikipedia:Alan_Turing:_The_Enigma|Alan Turing: The Enigma]] (1983).</ref>

In videos including interviews<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjiJcIiCwvA Nettie Pollard and Michael Parkes on Icebreakers and GLF] (Video interview published on Youtube by LSE Library, Jul 19, 2024).</ref> and speeches<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oiu-YluGtIM Nettie Pollard, original Gay Liberation Front activist, reading John Chesterman's 1970 demands] (Posted to Youtube by Dan Glass, April 3rd, 2020).</ref>, Nettie often read out GLF activist John Chesterman's 1970 demands (pictured below).<ref>Written in 1970 by the late John Chesterman. In September 1971, he organized the Gay Liberation Front’s disruptions of the anti-queer Festival of Light held in Trafalgar Square, Methodist Central Hall, & Hyde Park.</ref> The demands, written as a poem, read in part:
<hr>
<div style="column-count:3;-moz-column-count:3;-webkit-column-count:3">
::We believe [...]
::That every person has the right
::To develop and extend their
::Character and explore their
::Sexuality through relationships
::With any other human being,
::Without moral, social or political
::Pressure. [...]

::To you, the others, we say
::We are not against you, but
::The prejudice that warps your
::Life, and ours
::It is not love that distorts,
::But hate.
::On your behalf, and ours,
::We demand:
::The same right to public
::Expressions of love and
::Affection as society grants
::To expressions of hate and scorn.
::The right to believe, without
::Harm to others, in public and
::Private, in any way we choose,

::In any manner or style, with
::Any words and gestures, to wear
::Whatever clothes we like or to
::Go naked, to draw or write or
::Read or publish any material or
::Information we wish, at any
::Time and in any place.
::An end to the sexual propaganda
::That disturbs the innocence of
::Children, conditions their image
::Of human relationships and implants
::Guilt and nurtures shame for any
::Sexual feelings outside an
::Artificial polarity.
</div>
<hr>

Nettie was often visibly emotional, nearly brought to tears, when reading Chesterman's gay liberation demands. For Nettie, these demands were "so moving and so profound, and such a long way away from equal rights and gay marriage. [...] It's to do with a completely different type of society, based on love. Really, that's what the Gay Liberation Front was about."<ref>LSE video interview w/ Nettie and Michael Parks. Op. Cit. Speech quoted from 4:30 minutes in.</ref> In a small book titled "Rainbow Planet," written by the Gay Liberation Front for the 50th Anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising (2019), Chesterman's demands are reproduced at the start with the authors asking "How far do you think we've got? We judge that worldwide John [the author] would be both proud and despairing."<ref>''Rainbow Planet'' was written by queer journalist and gay liberation activist Andrew Lumsden, to mark the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising of 1969. This text was given away during the London gay pride march on June 2019. It is [https://downloads.ctfassets.net/0ho16wyr4i9n/6xJNqzIndAbpkomZKYikED/0fe4e56e815ddd6c134cccff46360ce1/Rainbow_Planet.pdf available as a PDF online].</ref> For Nettie, the GLF badge was "a liberation badge, not a rights badge."<ref>Philippa Fletcher and Noah Petts, [https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/313970B8AB620F063001F7159E6F1006/S0018246X25000093a.pdf/the-lives-and-legacies-of-the-british-gay-liberation-front-badge-1970-2024.pdf The Lives and Legacies of the British Gay Liberation Front Badge, 1970–2024,] ''The Historical Journal'', 69, pp. 198–220 (p. 207);
<doi:10.1017/S0018246X25000093></ref>
[[File:216014574-231687873-John Chesterman GLF Demands 1970.png|200px|thumb|left|John Chesterman's Gay Liberation Front demands, written in 1970.]]
Nettie wrote for ''Red Rag'', the theoretical journal of the British [[Feminism|women's movement]].<ref>See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Rag_(magazine) Red Rag (Wikipedia)]. For scans, see the [https://banmarchive.org.uk/red-rag/ online archive].</ref> As part of protesting with the GLF, Nettie participated in "kiss-ins" - a variation of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit-in sit-ins] used to protest the fact that kissing in public was illegal for gays during this time. This activity carried serious risk. In an interview for Attitude Magazine, Nettie's friend Ted Brown stated that "people think we were being flippant [...] but the sentence for that kind of behavior could have been between 5 and 7 years in prison."<ref>Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlmDLODvb-k The former Gay Liberation Front activist who's spent 50 years fighting for LGBTQ rights] (Youtube, Attitude Magazine, Jun 24, 2021).</ref> Nettie also participated in more traditional sit-ins where, for example, a bar or restaurant had refused to serve homosexuals or people in drag...

The London GLF set up the support group "Icebreakers" in the spring of 1973, with Nettie being a founding member. She was 1 of around 30 'icebreakers' who would participate in telephone helplines that people could call anonymously. Nettie described the rationale for Icebreakers as stemming from the fact that "in those days, almost no one was out." Most people were too afraid of being outed to simply walk into an in-person meeting, but might become comfortable enough to do so if they already knew of people there who were sympathetic, understood their concerns, or had similar romantic and sexual feelings to themselves.<ref>Nettie and and Michael Parkes on Icebreakers and GLF - Youtube. Op. cit.</ref>
[[File:Nettie Tatchell 1.jpg|thumb|right|Class of 72 (from left): Tom Robinson, Stuart Feather, Mair Twissell, Roz Kaveney, [[Peter Tatchell]], Andrew Lumsden, Ted Brown and Nettie Pollard. Photograph: Simon Webb/The Guardian.]]
Nettie has been quoted as a source on GLF history in many books, including fellow GLF veteran Stuart Feather's ''Blowing the Lid: Gay Liberation, Sexual Revolution and Radical Queens'' (2016), ''No bath but plenty of bubbles'' by Lisa Power (1996), ''Queer Footprints'' (2023) by gay writer Dan Glass, and professional historians' books such as ''The Way Out: A History of Homosexuality in Modern Britain'' (Buckle, 2015) and Lucy Robinson's ''Gay Men and the Left in Post-War Britain'' (2007).

Notably, the British GLF organization had a London office at 5 Caledonian Road, which the media branch used to publish its writings. This included their official newspaper ''Come Together'', which ran for 16 issues from 1970 to 1973. This same address was used by the longstanding pacifist magazine ''Peace News'', at one time edited by [[Roger Moody]], who was a friend of Nettie's until his death.<ref>Of important historical note, Roger Moody was a British socialist and anti-war activist who has been described as the first person to openly declare himself a "paedophile" in print.</ref> The GLF also had a Youth group for under 21s — then the male homosexual [[age of consent]] — which included members from age 12 and up. The youth group created a "Youth edition" of ''Come Together'', which criticized [[Statutory_rape|age of consent laws]].

==Civil Liberties Activism, the NCCL and PIE==

After leaving Icebreakers, Nettie joined the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL), initially as a receptionist. She had put her GLF experience on her job application and, as a result, landed the embryonic Gay Rights brief. According to [[Peter Scott-Presland]], she transformed it. The NCCL's Lesbian and Gay Committee published the first detailed reports on discrimination in employment, policing and censorship between 1976 and 1979.

Presland wrote that, "In the wake of partial decriminalization of sex between men, there was much discussion about the anomalies which remained. In April 1976, NCCL adopted proposals for an age of consent of 14, which it submitted to the Criminal Law Revision Commission. When NCCL disavowed this several years later, Nettie became something of a scapegoat and was doorstepped viciously as an alleged "paedophile apologist" at home by the News of the World while her partner was dying of cancer upstairs."<ref>Presland obituary. Op. cit. Scare quotes on "paedophile apologist" added by Newgon editors.</ref>
[[File:1975Guardian.png|thumb|26th August 1975: Child-lovers win fight for role in Gay Lib (The Guardian)]]
Prior to the 1970s, "paedophilia" had been an obscure category originating from psychiatry. The historian Nicholas Basannavar has argued that the term only began to enter mass consciousness after intense media coverage around Paedophile Action for Liberation (PAL), and its successor the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE).<ref>See [https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/40384/1/FINAL%20SUBMISSION%20-%20Nick%20Basannavar.pdf Basannavar, Nicholas Ranjan Gadsby. (2019). Speaking about speaking about child sexual abuse in Britain, 1965-1991. [Thesis<nowiki>]</nowiki>]</ref> In the late 1970s and early 80s, gay groups consolidated to present a more 'respectable' image in the wake of the AIDS crisis and a conservative backlash to the past decade.<ref>See [[Steven Angelides]], ''The Fear of Child Sexuality'' (2019); See also, the work of [[Gert Hekma]] and [[Philip Jenkins]].</ref> Before the 1980s, critical thinking around [[pedophilia]] and age-gap sex had been more common and socially acceptable to express. In 1976, for example, in a submission to the Criminal Law Revision Committee of the British Parliament, the NCCL argued that "Childhood sexual experiences, willingly engaged in, with an adult [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|result in no identifiable damage]]... The real need is a change in the attitude which assumes that all cases of paedophilia result in lasting damage". The NCCL argued that the "onus of proof [was] on the prosecution to show that the child was actually harmed," rather than having a blanket ban on [[child pornography]], and advocated the decriminalization of [[Research:_Double-Taboo_CSA|incest]].<ref>Mason, Rowena. [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/24/harriet-harman-daily-mail-paedophile-campaign-allegations "Harriet Harman rejects allegations of 1970s link to paedophile campaign"]. ''The Guardian'', Feb 2014.</ref>

According to British academic Christopher Moores (2017), "Pollard provided the main link between the NCCL and PIE."<ref>Christopher Moores, ''Civil liberties and Human Rights in Twentieth-Century Britain'' (Cambridge University Press, 2017), p. 195. [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/22436a9783116d53bf7ab8527bea913f Annas Archive PDF link]].</ref> "She aligned paedophile rights with a broader politics of sexual liberation," wrote Moores, "picking up on developing arguments that sexual values and ages of consent [...] were culturally and socially constructed, rather than biologically determined." (''Ibid''., pp. 195-196).

Pollard spoke at [[PIE]]'s Annual General Meeting (AGM) in 1977, offering legal advice about homosexuality and the law as well as supplying members with NCCL fact-sheets on arrests. In the same year, PIE Chairman [[Thomas_O'Carroll|Tom O'Carroll]] spoke at a conference on the treatment of sexual offenders in prison, organized by the NCCL Gay Rights Sub-Committee. When the British retail chain [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHSmith W. H. Smith] banned the newspaper ''Gay News'' in 1976 because the publication featured PIE's advertisements, Pollard argued on behalf of the NCCL that this amounted to [[censorship]] determined not by the law, but by ignorance and prejudice.<ref>''Ibid''., pp. 196-197. The passages here are freely adapted from information in Moores (2017), with attribution.</ref>

Whilst most of Nettie's published writing concerns debates about pornography, Moores found an archived letter addressed to the lesbian magazine ''Sequel'' and written under the name 'Nettie', in which the author described pedophiles as the "most horrifically oppressed of sexual minorities." 'Nettie' argued that the law should distinguish between tender and violent acts ("which no one in their right mind would condone"), and concluded by stating that "some of the most equal and least exploitative relationships I know of between adults and children have been sexual ones." (''Ibid''., pp. 200-201).<ref>Citation: ‘Nettie’, ‘Paedophilia’ in ''Sequel Magazine'', undated article, U DCL 687/7.</ref>

For Moores, it is "highly likely" that this letter was written by Nettie Pollard, "given the letter's position in folders of material which she compiled." (p. 201). The only other record of Nettie writing about [[MAP]] issues under her own name, comes from a 1993 book chapter called "The Small Matter of Children," which displays similar language and ideas.<ref>For example, both 'Nettie's' argued that society refuses to take children's desires and ideas seriously...</ref>

Nettie commented that NCCL's part in "the battle for gay rights is a long and often boring one." (''Ibid.'', p. 194).<ref>According to Moores (p. 194): "The Sub-Committees tasks included lobbying for copies of Gay News to be delivered to prisons, encouraging provincial newspapers to publish adverts for gay switchboards and offering legal advice on prosecutions of gay men. It advised those seeking to ‘come out’, and individuals experiencing everyday challenges of publicly identifying and being identified as homosexual. Advice aside, most attention was given to issues around homosexuality and employment; monitoring individual cases and employment tribunals of those who felt they had been dismissed because of their sexual preferences. [...] If the association with PIE was problematic, it is crucial to mention that the volume and tone of the majority of correspondence on gay rights that came into the NCCL’s office, many of which are moving accounts of those who felt they did not belong, are reminders about the profound and varied inequalities in place for homosexuals in contemporary Britain."</ref> Unlike the Women's Rights Sub-Committee, the Gay Rights Sub-Committee was more independent and sometimes detached from the rest of the organization.<ref>''Ibid''., p. 195. Quote: "The post of a gay rights officer was created following a targeted grant offered by a single wealthy individual to support the post. Those donating to the Sub-Committee often specified that money should be spent on gay rights work and not on the rest of the NCCL’s programme; it recruited its own volunteers, granting it a degree of autonomy.250 Nettie Pollard’s salary as gay rights organizer was covered by specific grants to be directed towards gay rights work. In fact, the Sub Committee was considered an ‘unofficial body’, further reducing the oversight of the NCCL Executive and leadership."</ref> Whilst Nettie's job description covered ‘receptionist duties’, she also ran the organization's switchboard, generated most of
the Sub-Committee's paperwork, and was well-versed in legal issues relating to homosexuality (''Ibid.'').<ref>As Moores put it, "She connected her own politics and career choice with a wide and long-standing interest in civil rights. Seeing the world from such a perspective meant that Pollard was able to find continuities between less controversial issues typical of the NCCL's work, such as [...] supporting those discriminated against at work, and helping transsexuals forced into guilty pleas for soliciting, with the type of legal challenge raised by PAL and [[PIE]]." p. 195.</ref>
[[File:559396947-460578928-Nettie 05.jpg|300px|thumb|right|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.]]
Since the [[age of consent]] for male sexual intercourse was 21 at the time but 16 for heterosexuals, it was widely argued that the age should be reduced to 16 for both sexes.<ref>Moores, p. 196: "With the age of consent for male homosexuality in England and Wales so markedly out of sync with that for heterosexual intercourse, the GLF was particularly interested in the subject which was typically used to demonstrate the continuing patterns of inequality and discrimination in the sexual sphere. As conservative moral crusaders focussed on paedophilia in their efforts to preserve the unequal age of consent, certain groups saw the issue as the ‘next front’ in a longer-term battle against prejudice and in support of sexual liberation."</ref> This legal disparity, in addition to homosexuality still being highly stigmatized as "sinful," "unnatural," or a symptom of disease / mental illness, meant that teiliophilic homosexuals were more likely to criticize age of consent laws and support other non-normative sexual attractions and practices. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have explained this phenomenon with reference to [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle," where the boundaries of accepted sexual expression were once "so narrow that those who were cast outside its limits shared common ground."<ref>Rachel Hope Cleves, ''Unspeakable: A Life Beyond Sexual Morality'' (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2020), p. 13.</ref> "Identity categories that are distant from each other today — like loose women, lesbians, and [[Pederasty|pederasts]] — were more proximate when they were all outside the charmed circle."<ref>"[[Pederasty]]," Cleves wrote, "was less taboo before the 1950s, in effect, because so many other behaviors were disreputable as well. Pederasty was less distinct from other types of sexual non-conformity." (''Ibid.'').</ref> Because teiliophilic homosexuality was so taboo during Nettie's era, gay rights campaigners had what Moores (2017) calls "shared interests" in criticizing the [[age of consent]] and defending the civil liberties of other sexual minorities; i.e., "Pollard became sympathetic to PIE's endeavors." (p. 196)...
[[File:Gayle Rubin's charmed circle.png|200px|thumb|left|Gayle Rubin's "Charmed Circle"]]
At some point, Nettie joined PIE. She was member number 70. In May 1975, [[PIE]] announced that it affiliated to the NCCL, which had joined following an invitation from Nettie. Both the first Chairperson of PIE - Keith Hose - and his successor [[Tom O'Carroll]] - were at times members of the NCCL's sub-committee for gay rights. For his influential book ''[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]'' (1980), O'Carroll gave his "heartfelt thanks" to Nettie, [[Ken Plummer]], and [[Donald West]], "each of whom read the whole text in draft and made many valuable suggestions."

Nettie was also active in the [[The_Campaign_Against_Public_Morals|Campaign Against Public Morals]], a group created to defend and support PIE members who faced legal battles for "conspiracy" and speech offences in 1981, highlighting what she saw as "the absurdity of conspiracy laws".<ref>Presland. Op. cit.</ref> "Intensely loyal on a personal level," wrote Presland, Nettie "supported individuals trapped by these catch-all offences through times of imprisonment and beyond."<ref>Op. cit.</ref>

The British art curator and gay activist [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-barry-prothero-1313047.html Barry Prothero] - Nettie's colleague and fellow NCCL Gay Rights Officer - attended some of the PIE trial proceedings. He wrote to gay rights campaigners in Canada such as [[Gerald Hannon]] of the ''Body Politic'', and in correspondence named British diplomat [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hayman_(diplomat) Sir Peter Hayman] as the reason for a 'cover-up' by the British authorities. "It is clear that most of the evidence that was not used was dropped because Hayman [...] was the central figure in its production," he wrote, adding that "although assisting in a “cover-up” may be distasteful, not only the defendants but the entire gay movement in this country would be delighted if this one [i.e. cover-up] succeeded in order to keep the case out of court."<ref>See Moores (2017), Op. Cit. Pages 199-200.</ref>

During this period, two lawyers associated with the NCCL, Sir [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thornton_(judge) Peter Thornton]<ref>See his [https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/sir-peter-thornton-1 KCL University profile] which describes his extensive work and writings on civil liberties issues, noting that "As Chair of the National Council for Liberties and the Civil Liberties Trust, he lobbied Parliament over the ‘sus’ law, identification evidence, confessions and the right to public protest." For discussion, see [https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/mar/25/who-judges-the-judges ''Guardian'' article].</ref> and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Fulford Adrian Fulford] (later Lord Justice Fulford), the latter a member of the NCCL's Gay Rights Sub-Committee, defended members of PIE in court.<ref>Note: These individuals defended PIE members in court during the late 1970s and early 1980s, but not under NCCL auspices.</ref> According to Moores,

<blockquote>''The NCCL was also concerned about issues of employment and privacy for individuals who had not committed any crimes. The ‘exposure’ of paedophiles in the media was, to its Gay Rights Sub Committee, very worrying. In particular, it expressed concern about the way in which a group of men, who had not been convicted or charged for offences, were described in the Sunday People exposure of PAL as the ‘Vilest Men in Britain’. The Gay Rights Sub-Committee supported [[Tom O'Carroll]] when he was sacked from his post as Press Officer at the Open University (over which he was also defended by the National Union of Journalists and the Association of University Teachers, who feared that the case might set precedents for dismissing those with [[Communism|‘Marxist views’]])". [...] Pollard and those on her sub-committee closely monitored attempts to prosecute PIE leaders [... and were] especially anxious about the charge of ‘conspiracy to corrupt public morals’. PIE members were charged on conspiracy, obscenity and postal offences; it is worth remembering that at the time no offences against children were raised and no evidence was produced that demonstrated that an adult met a child through PIE.'' (p. 198).</blockquote>

The NCCL had some more general concerns," Moores explains, "about the use of conspiracy charges during the 1970s, citing their misuse during industrial disputes, the trials of members of the Angry Brigade in 1972, and ways in which they were used as non-specific ‘catch-all’ mechanisms for policing" (''Ibid.''). In later years, the NCCL's relationship to [[PIE]] were the subject of intense media scrutiny, implicating senior public figures such as [[Harriet Harman]].
[[File:CHEPedophileSupport1983.jpg|thumb|CHE support for PIE (1983)]]

==PIE, CHE, and Youth Rights==

Nettie Pollard played a leading role in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Equality Campaign for Homosexual Equality], who voted to support PIE at their 1975 conference, and defended PIE's right to speak and organize freely at their 1983 conference. Earlier in 1974, the CHE made statements of solidarity with PIE at its annual conference, and included adverts for the group in its ''Bulletin''.

In May 1974, CHE's Working Party on Law Reform proposed lowering the age of consent to 16, or 12 in some legal cases. At the time 200-300 youth, mostly young men between 16-20 years old, were being prosecuted for consensual homosexual acts every year. After internal review, in 1973, the idea of twelve for the [[age of consent]] was dropped. In 1977, CHE passed a resolution at its conference, "supported by the vast majority of delegates", which condemned press harassment of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]].<ref>Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Equality Wikipedia].</ref>

CHE "urged caution in responding to PIE, noting ‘as victims of prejudice ourselves’ it was important to think about how wrong information and misconceptions ‘might prevent understanding’." (Moores, 2017, p. 207). In 1984, when PIE was in the process of winding up, the CHE continued to recognize that pedophiles still had rights and that it would not ‘disown’ the organization. (''Ibid''.).

In 2010/2011, CHE's annual report shows they had two PIE members on their Executive Commitee – [[Barry Cutler]] & Nettie Pollard. The links between gay rights groups, PIE, and gay activists such as Nettie, have been explored in historian Lucy Robinson's book ''Gay Men and the Left in Post-War Britain: How the Personal Got Political'' (Manchester University Press, 2007).<ref>Robinson, L. (2007). [http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt155jf8t ''Gay men and the Left in post-war Britain: How the personal got political''] (Manchester University Press).</ref>

==Feminists Against Censorship and Later Years==

In the 1990s, Nettie began to focus on defending the civil liberties of sex workers, porn viewers / producers, and arguing against pornography's criminalization more broadly. She participated in a UK-based sexual freedom group which held 'clothing-optional' meetings, and which published the "Lesbian and Gay Freedom Movement" newsletter. This rare, not widely known newsletter, argued against [[age of consent]] laws, criticizing the stigmatization and criminalization of what the group saw as harmless, consensual, but non-normative sexual practices.<ref>For discussion of the relatively obscure "Lesbian and Gay Freedom Movement" newsletter, see [https://gittings.qzap.org/lgfm-newsletter/ this Anarchist Zine website].</ref>

During this period, Nettie began writing more. She summarized four then-recent books on pornography for the ''Libertarian Alliance'' in "The modern pornography debates" (1994),<ref>Nettie Pollard, "The modern pornography debates", in ''Libertarian Alliance Pamphlet'' No. 22 (1994). [[https://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/ncropa/ncropa-lib-10.pdf PDF Online]]</ref> co-authored "Only Words; Making Violence Sexy: Feminist Views on Pornography" (1994) with Avedon Carol,<ref>Avedon Carol and Nettie Pollard, (1994). [https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/tojmedlp15&section=45 "Only Words; Making Violence Sexy: Feminist Views on Pornography"], in ''Media Law & Practice'', Vol. 15, No. 3.</ref> and authored a chapter in ''Tales from the Clit: A Female Experience of Pornography'' (1996) - advertized as "True stories from some of the world's most pro-sex feminists."<ref>Cherie Matrix; Feminists Against Censorship (Organization), ''Tales From The Clit: A Female Experience Of Pornography Female Experience Of Pornography'' (AK Press, 1996). [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/95a247e43fc3285f0e4345c201962436 Annas Archive PDF] link]</ref>

In 1994, Nettie received an award for being a "Campaigner for Sexual Freedom," from the Erotic Oscars (later renamed the [https://www.artandpopularculture.com/Erotic_Awards Sexual Freedom Awards]) - an annual event started by her friend Tuppy Owens.<ref>See [https://grokipedia.com/page/Tuppy_Owens Tuppy Owens] - Grokpedia. Note that Tuppy Owens had a chapter in conversation with [[Tom O'Carroll]], Chairperson of [[PIE]], in The [[The_Betrayal_of_Youth_(Book)|''Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'']] (London: CL Publications, 1986). Tuppy Owens also has a chapter in ''Tales from the Clit: A Female Experience of Pornography'' (1996), cited above.</ref> After being made redundant from the NCCL in 1997, Nettie joined [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists_Against_Censorship Feminists Against Censorship]. She was prominent in the [[wikipedia:Operation_Spanner|1990s Spanner defense campaign]], where gay S/M practitioners had been prosecuted for consensual sex.
She also joined the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Equality Campaign for Homosexual Equality]'s executive committee in 2009, and campaigned for LGBT+ migrants and asylum seekers, including personally organizing finance and defense for several people whose chances of asylum were written off by others.

Nettie published her most overt perspective on [[MAP]] related issues, in a book chapter titled "The Small Matter of Children." Published in ''Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism'' (1993), edited by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol,<ref>Avedon Carol being Nettie's friend, the founder of Feminists Against Censorship, and co-author of "Changing Perceptions of the Feminist Debate" with Nettie in the same volume. See also, [https://grokipedia.com/page/avedon_carol Avedon Carol] - Grokpedia.</ref> the book included contributions from [[Gayle Rubin]] and Tuppy Owens among others. For her part, Nettie argued that "The British [[Feminism|feminist movement]] has never really addressed the issue of children's liberation."<ref>Nettie Pollard, 'The Small Matter of Children,' in ''Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism'', ed. by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol (Boulder, Colorado: Pluto Press, 1993), pp. 105-111. [[https://www.jstor.org/stable/jj.38401871.21 Jstor] link]. [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/38138de0c0ef229d5cd9075b1661275a Annas Archive PDF] link].</ref> She criticized how the women's movement "would sometimes even cooperate with the most vicious arms of the patriarchal state." Raising the case of anti-'snuff film' campaigns, she wrote that:

<blockquote>''To date, no ‘snuff’ movie, (i.e. where actors are actually killed), has been discovered by police anywhere in the world. No bodies have ever been discovered, and ‘Operation Orchid’ seems to have disappeared, but fear and loathing have been implanted in women's minds.''</blockquote>

Nettie argued that research has shown that "Far from being [[Childhood_Innocence|‘innocent’]] and becoming sexual at [[Adolescence|puberty]], as was once the common belief, it is now indisputable that everyone is sexual, [[Childhood_Innocence|even before birth]]. Erection in males is detected in the womb from 29 weeks [...] The vagina is responsive sexually from birth in cyclic lubrication." (p. 108). She explains why past campaign groups (even those led by school students) have lacked involvement by younger children, and provides a lengthy description of [[Research:_Secondary_Harm|secondary victimization]] in cases of [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|mutually willing]] but unlawful age-gap sex. For Nettie,

<blockquote>''The current [[moral panic]] about child abuse has pushed back our recognition of children as sexual actors rather than as merely victims. Denial of children’s sexuality, and the fear that they may be sexually attacked, in fact makes them far more vulnerable to abusive situations. If children are informed about their bodies and how they function, and about what sexuality is, this awareness, in itself, means that children can be much less easily led into unwelcome situations by ignorance of what is really going on. If children know that their bodies and sexuality are their own and should be under their own control, and that sex is not forbidden or dirty, then they are much more confident when it comes to getting what they really want and refusing what they don’t want. In the event of a genuine assault or abusive situation, children who are not taught that sex is shameful can much more easily come forward, report the situation and get something done about it. (p. 109)''</blockquote>

She concludes:
<blockquote>
''Creating an atmosphere in which sex is understood to be acceptable in a non-violent, non-coercive, mutual environment does not teach children to accept brutal assaults; ignorance supported by scare tactics does not arm children against exploitative adults. Yet, in this over-protective and paternalistic time, scare tactics have become our sole means of ‘protecting’ children. We accept attacks on gays or on the porn industry because we have been conned into believing that somehow suppressing sexual adventure and deviance will automatically — illogically — provide some safety for children. It won't.''

''Yet merely eliminating harmful age of consent laws will not be sufficient to make children safe and free. To achieve this, children need social and economic power, as well as respect, in every sphere of life, for their needs and desires. Children must be taught as early as possible that their opinions matter, that their experience is valid, and that their bodies are their own possessions, that they can defend themselves against psychological, economic and physical abuses. Just as women couldn’t be autonomous while they were virtually owned by their husbands – we couldn’t own our own money, and it was entirely legal for husbands to beat and rape us – so children are left dependent and victimized by the present situation. Until children have economic power and the right to make their own decisions about choices ranging from schools, clothes and food to friendships and sexuality, children, like women, will not have sexual autonomy.''
</blockquote>

Confined at home first by long Covid, and then by undiagnosed colorectal cancer, Nettie maintained a huge friendship network and an abiding concern with a variety of progressive causes. In the words of her friend, "She became a Queer National Treasure."<ref>Presland. Op. cit.</ref>

Nettie Pollard died on Christmas Day, 2025, aged 76.

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:609920541-218784087-Nettie 21.png|Nettie and her friend, fellow GLF veteran activist Ted Brown.
File:966528151-420033740-Nettie 20.png|Nettie interviewed by Attitude Magazine in 2022, alongside [[Peter Tatchell]] and Ted Brown.
File:Nettie Tatchell 2.jpg|The 1971 GLF Miss World protest, with [[Peter Tatchell]] (on far right) and Nettie Pollard (second from right).
File:Tatchell 1972.jpg|Nettie's friends. L-R: Ted Brown, his partner Noel Glynn, and famous gay activist Peter Tatchell. Young Gay Liberation Front activists photographed in 1972.
File:559396947-460578928-Nettie 05.jpg|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:563879905-163949554-Nettie 06.jpg|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK. Members names listed.
File:667197312-350175245-Nettie 07.jpg|Nettie Pollard pictured / featured on the far-left, in "Are you Proud?" film poster. Her friend Ted Brown is pictured, as is [[Peter Tatchell]] (in a purple suit on the right).
File:456478275-973158936-Nettie 08.jpg|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:209666243-369537062-Nettie 09.jpg|Nettie pictured next to GLF activist Noel Glynn, with her friend [[Peter Scott-Presland]] to the right of the picture. The banner / poster next to them refers to the British activist group "CHE" - the Campaign for Homosexual Equality - for which Presland has written the organization's official history.
File:255532816-331476931-Nettie 10.jpg|Nettie speaking at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:550334764-417714961-Nettie 11.jpg|50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK. [[Peter Tatchell]] is in the center.
File:777698522-297628350-Nettie 12.jpg|Ted Brown speaking at an indoor event / after party hosted for the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK. Nettie Pollard stands in the background.
File:247662599-213194942-Nettie 13.jpg|A published historical profile of the GLF.
File:533196382-535113777-Nettie 14.jpg|Nettie speaking at an indoor event / after party hosted for the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:490009833-638400917-Nettie 03.jpeg|Nettie surrounded by Leftist books.
File:790812844-155098666-Nettie 04.jpeg|Nettie in her final days...
</gallery>

==External Links==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjiJcIiCwvA Nettie Pollard and Michael Parkes on Icebreakers and GLF] (Video interview published on Youtube by LSE Library, Jul 19, 2024)
*[https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/Documents/Detail/nettie-pollard/638417?item=638418 Interview with Nettie Pollard] (audio only, transcript available) conducted in 2023 as part of LSE University's GLF Collections - an open-access online repository of documents and oral interviews with GLF activists.
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oiu-YluGtIM Nettie Pollard, original Gay Liberation Front activist, reading John Chesterman's 1970 demands] (Posted to Youtube by Dan Glass, April 3rd, 2020) - Video description reads: "Nettie Pollard, Gay Liberation Front (GLF) activist, reading John Chesterman's original GLF demands from 1970 at the 'Absolute Freedom for all Party – Gay Liberation Front 50th Birthday Party' - March 2020 at London School of Economics (LSE) - where it all began!"
*[https://gayliberationfrontuk.com/demands/ John Chesterman's Gay Liberation Front demands, written in 1970] - Nettie loved to quote them!
*[https://www.attitude.co.uk/life/nettie-pollard-obituary-lesbian-activist-civil-rights-515061/ Remembering Nettie Pollard: pioneering lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner] (''Attitude Magazine'', 2 March 2026) - Obituary by [[Peter Scott-Presland]].

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]]

Nettie Pollard

2026-08-02T21:09:59Z

Prue:

<div style="margin-right: 25px; float: left;">__TOC__</div>[[File:Nettie 01.clean.jpeg|200px|thumb|Nettie Pollard in her later years, wearing her GLF badge.]]'''Janet (Nettie) Marian Mackenzie Pollard''' (6th September 1949 - 25th December 2025), known in life as '''Nettie Pollard''', was a pioneering British lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner. She is known primarily for her early involvement with the UK branch of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Liberation_Front# Gay Liberation Front] (GLF, founded in 1970), her work with the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL, later [[wikipedia:Liberty_(advocacy_group)|Liberty]]), and her involvement with the group [[wikipedia:Feminists_Against_Censorship|Feminists Against Censorship]]. Nettie attended and helped to organize the UK's first Gay Pride March, which took place in London on the 1st of July, 1972.<ref>Alastair James, [https://www.attitude.co.uk/uncategorised/worlds-first-ever-pride-march-in-1972-remembered-by-gay-liberation-front-veterans-403931/ World's first-ever Pride march in 1972 remembered by Gay Liberation Front veterans] (''Attitude Magazine'', 24 July 2022); cf. Peter Scott-Presland's obituary for Nettie (cited below), which describes Nettie as a "planner" of the march.</ref>

[[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|Similar to many early gay and sexual liberation activists]] who had lived through a time where homosexuality was a "stigma symbol" - as Nettie's friend [[Ken Plummer]] (1973) put it - where to "be publicly known as a homosexual [was] to invite your employer to sack you, your parents to reject you, the law to imprison you, the doctor to cure you, the moralist to denounce you, [...] and the queer basher to kill you" (''Ibid''.),<ref>See [[Ken Plummer]], [https://kenplummer.com/2013/01/30/early-research-awareness-of-homosexuality/ "Awareness of Homosexuality"] (1973).</ref> Nettie was sympathetic towards other sexual minorities including [[MAP]]s and transgender people.

==Early Life==

Named Janet, but always known as Nettie, she was the daughter of committed Communist parents Jack and Ursula, a civil servant and feminist. Nettie was a vegetarian from infancy, and lost her sense of smell after being hit by a trolleybus. She followed Jack into King Alfred School, a progressive establishment in the London suburb of Golders Green.<ref>Information freely adapted from an obituary by [[Peter Scott-Presland]], [https://www.attitude.co.uk/life/nettie-pollard-obituary-lesbian-activist-civil-rights-515061/ Remembering Nettie Pollard: pioneering lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner] (''Attitude'', 2 March 2026).</ref> In an interview with the London School of Economics (LSE), Nettie described feeling "out of place" as an adolescent. She felt she did not "fit in," partly because of her underhung jaw, of which a dentist reportedly told her: "we can break your jaw and push it back; otherwise, how else are you going to get a boy?"<ref>[https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/Documents/Detail/nettie-pollard/638417 Nettie Pollard [Semi-structured interview with Nettie Pollard of the British Gay Liberation Front conducted as part of research on the GLF badge.<nowiki>]</nowiki>] (London School of Economics / LSE, Gay Liberation Front Oral Histories project, 06/06/2023). Library source code: HCA/GLF/19/07. </ref>

In 1971, when Nettie was 21, she heard about the GLF. Her father Jack read about the GLF in a newspaper, and asked Nettie "this looks exciting, shall we go?" The pair went together to Covent Garden, where Nettie was stunned to discover people talking of revolution and non-monogamy.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

==Early Sexual Liberation and the GLF==
[[File:874405314-555791042-Nettie 02.jpeg|200px|thumb|right|A young Nettie Pollard, likely pictured in the 1970s.]]
The first meeting of the Gay Liberation Front (GLF) took place on 13 October 1970, in a basement classroom at the London School of Economics. It was instigated by Aubrey Walters and Bob Mellors, who had been influenced by the development of the GLF in the USA following the Stonewall Riots. It was the beginning of a 3 year period of great activity, including demonstrations, debates, street theater, the establishment of a new gay press, and the establishment of communes.<ref>An account of the GLF entitled ''No bath but plenty of bubbles: an oral history of the Gay Liberation Front, 1970-1973'' was written by Lisa Power.</ref><ref>See also, Aubrey Walter, ''Come Together: The Years of Gay Liberation 1970–73'' (1980).</ref> As described in an obituary for Nettie by [[Peter Scott-Presland]], Nettie "threw herself into the counter-psychiatry group, which campaigned against the idea that homosexuality was a disease. Out of this group came the radical self-help group Icebreakers, of which she was a founder member. Rejecting “objectivity” in counselling, Icebreakers offered instead the positive role model of out and proud homosexuals."<ref>''Op. cit.''</ref>

The counter psychiatry group had started in 1970, and included [[Jeffrey Weeks]] and [[wikipedia:Mary_Susan_McIntosh|Mary McIntosh]] as members.<ref>Nettie and McIntosh have been photographed together. See [https://archives.lse.ac.uk/records/MCINTOSH/M3765/15 Photograph (colour printout) showing McIntosh and others on stage at Gay Pride, 1995 for 25th Anniversary of Gay Liberation Front, annotated on reverse] [LSE Library Archives].</ref> The group had published the pamphlet ''Psychiatry and the Homosexual: A brief analysis of oppression'' (1973), written by 6 gay men, before Nettie joined the group.<ref>The document can be [https://www.scribd.com/document/596894250/Psychiatry-and-Homosexual read on Scribd].</ref> It was in this group that [[wikipedia:Andrew_Hodges|Andrew Hodges]] first wrote about [[Alan Turing]] - then an unknown figure - which would eventually snowball and culminate in Turing become a revered homosexual icon (despite Turing likely being an [[MAP]] / boylover)...<ref>See [https://fstube.net/w/dPne9BxPAaL2ooYUDXbCht Alan Turing Documentary Excerpts] (Freespeechtube).</ref><ref>See Andrew Hodges, [[wikipedia:Alan_Turing:_The_Enigma|Alan Turing: The Enigma]] (1983).</ref>

In videos including interviews<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjiJcIiCwvA Nettie Pollard and Michael Parkes on Icebreakers and GLF] (Video interview published on Youtube by LSE Library, Jul 19, 2024).</ref> and speeches<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oiu-YluGtIM Nettie Pollard, original Gay Liberation Front activist, reading John Chesterman's 1970 demands] (Posted to Youtube by Dan Glass, April 3rd, 2020).</ref>, Nettie often read out GLF activist John Chesterman's 1970 demands (pictured below).<ref>Written in 1970 by the late John Chesterman. In September 1971, he organized the Gay Liberation Front’s disruptions of the anti-queer Festival of Light held in Trafalgar Square, Methodist Central Hall, & Hyde Park.</ref> The demands, written as a poem, read in part:
<hr>
<div style="column-count:3;-moz-column-count:3;-webkit-column-count:3">
::We believe [...]
::That every person has the right
::To develop and extend their
::Character and explore their
::Sexuality through relationships
::With any other human being,
::Without moral, social or political
::Pressure. [...]

::To you, the others, we say
::We are not against you, but
::The prejudice that warps your
::Life, and ours
::It is not love that distorts,
::But hate.
::On your behalf, and ours,
::We demand:
::The same right to public
::Expressions of love and
::Affection as society grants
::To expressions of hate and scorn.
::The right to believe, without
::Harm to others, in public and
::Private, in any way we choose,

::In any manner or style, with
::Any words and gestures, to wear
::Whatever clothes we like or to
::Go naked, to draw or write or
::Read or publish any material or
::Information we wish, at any
::Time and in any place.
::An end to the sexual propaganda
::That disturbs the innocence of
::Children, conditions their image
::Of human relationships and implants
::Guilt and nurtures shame for any
::Sexual feelings outside an
::Artificial polarity.
</div>
<hr>

Nettie was often visibly emotional, nearly brought to tears, when reading Chesterman's gay liberation demands. For Nettie, these demands were "so moving and so profound, and such a long way away from equal rights and gay marriage. [...] It's to do with a completely different type of society, based on love. Really, that's what the Gay Liberation Front was about."<ref>LSE video interview w/ Nettie and Michael Parks. Op. Cit. Speech quoted from 4:30 minutes in.</ref> In a small book titled "Rainbow Planet," written by the Gay Liberation Front for the 50th Anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising (2019), Chesterman's demands are reproduced at the start with the authors asking "How far do you think we've got? We judge that worldwide John [the author] would be both proud and despairing."<ref>''Rainbow Planet'' was written by queer journalist and gay liberation activist Andrew Lumsden, to mark the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising of 1969. This text was given away during the London gay pride march on June 2019. It is [https://downloads.ctfassets.net/0ho16wyr4i9n/6xJNqzIndAbpkomZKYikED/0fe4e56e815ddd6c134cccff46360ce1/Rainbow_Planet.pdf available as a PDF online].</ref> For Nettie, the GLF badge was "a liberation badge, not a rights badge."<ref>Philippa Fletcher and Noah Petts, [https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/313970B8AB620F063001F7159E6F1006/S0018246X25000093a.pdf/the-lives-and-legacies-of-the-british-gay-liberation-front-badge-1970-2024.pdf The Lives and Legacies of the British Gay Liberation Front Badge, 1970–2024,] ''The Historical Journal'', 69, pp. 198–220 (p. 207);
<doi:10.1017/S0018246X25000093></ref>
[[File:216014574-231687873-John Chesterman GLF Demands 1970.png|200px|thumb|left|John Chesterman's Gay Liberation Front demands, written in 1970.]]
Nettie wrote for ''Red Rag'', the theoretical journal of the British [[Feminism|women's movement]].<ref>See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Rag_(magazine) Red Rag (Wikipedia)]. For scans, see the [https://banmarchive.org.uk/red-rag/ online archive].</ref> As part of protesting with the GLF, Nettie participated in "kiss-ins" - a variation of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sit-in sit-ins] used to protest the fact that kissing in public was illegal for gays during this time. This activity carried serious risk. In an interview for Attitude Magazine, Nettie's friend Ted Brown stated that "people think we were being flippant [...] but the sentence for that kind of behavior could have been between 5 and 7 years in prison."<ref>Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlmDLODvb-k The former Gay Liberation Front activist who's spent 50 years fighting for LGBTQ rights] (Youtube, Attitude Magazine, Jun 24, 2021).</ref> Nettie also participated in more traditional sit-ins where, for example, a bar or restaurant had refused to serve homosexuals or people in drag...

The London GLF set up the support group "Icebreakers" in the spring of 1973, with Nettie being a founding member. She was 1 of around 30 'icebreakers' who would participate in telephone helplines that people could call anonymously. Nettie described the rationale for Icebreakers as stemming from the fact that "in those days, almost no one was out." Most people were too afraid of being outed to simply walk into an in-person meeting, but might become comfortable enough to do so if they already knew of people there who were sympathetic, understood their concerns, or had similar romantic and sexual feelings to themselves.<ref>Nettie and and Michael Parkes on Icebreakers and GLF - Youtube. Op. cit.</ref>
[[File:Nettie Tatchell 1.jpg|thumb|right|Class of 72 (from left): Tom Robinson, Stuart Feather, Mair Twissell, Roz Kaveney, [[Peter Tatchell]], Andrew Lumsden, Ted Brown and Nettie Pollard. Photograph: Simon Webb/The Guardian.]]
Nettie has been quoted as a source on GLF history in many books, including fellow GLF veteran Stuart Feather's ''Blowing the Lid: Gay Liberation, Sexual Revolution and Radical Queens'' (2016), ''No bath but plenty of bubbles'' by Lisa Power (1996), ''Queer Footprints'' (2023) by gay writer Dan Glass, and professional historians' books such as ''The Way Out: A History of Homosexuality in Modern Britain'' (Buckle, 2015) and Lucy Robinson's ''Gay Men and the Left in Post-War Britain'' (2007).

Notably, the British GLF organization had a London office at 5 Caledonian Road, which the media branch used to publish its writings. This included their official newspaper ''Come Together'', which ran for 16 issues from 1970 to 1973. This same address was used by the longstanding pacifist magazine ''Peace News'', at one time edited by [[Roger Moody]], who was a friend of Nettie's until his death.<ref>Of important historical note, Roger Moody was a British socialist and anti-war activist who has been described as the first person to openly declare himself a "paedophile" in print.</ref> The GLF also had a Youth group for under 21s — then the male homosexual [[age of consent]] — which included members from age 12 and up. The youth group created a "Youth edition" of ''Come Together'', which criticized [[Statutory_rape|age of consent laws]].

==Civil Liberties Activism, the NCCL and PIE==

After leaving Icebreakers, Nettie joined the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL), initially as a receptionist. She had put her GLF experience on her job application and, as a result, landed the embryonic Gay Rights brief. According to [[Peter Scott-Presland]], she transformed it. The NCCL's Lesbian and Gay Committee published the first detailed reports on discrimination in employment, policing and censorship between 1976 and 1979.

Presland wrote that, "In the wake of partial decriminalization of sex between men, there was much discussion about the anomalies which remained. In April 1976, NCCL adopted proposals for an age of consent of 14, which it submitted to the Criminal Law Revision Commission. When NCCL disavowed this several years later, Nettie became something of a scapegoat and was doorstepped viciously as an alleged "paedophile apologist" at home by the News of the World while her partner was dying of cancer upstairs."<ref>Presland obituary. Op. cit. Scare quotes on "paedophile apologist" added by Newgon editors.</ref>
[[File:1975Guardian.png|thumb|26th August 1975: Child-lovers win fight for role in Gay Lib (The Guardian)]]
Prior to the 1970s, "paedophilia" had been an obscure category originating from psychiatry. The historian Nicholas Basannavar has argued that the term only began to enter mass consciousness after intense media coverage around Paedophile Action for Liberation (PAL), and its successor the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE).<ref>See [https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/40384/1/FINAL%20SUBMISSION%20-%20Nick%20Basannavar.pdf Basannavar, Nicholas Ranjan Gadsby. (2019). Speaking about speaking about child sexual abuse in Britain, 1965-1991. [Thesis<nowiki>]</nowiki>]</ref> In the late 1970s and early 80s, gay groups consolidated to present a more 'respectable' image in the wake of the AIDS crisis and a conservative backlash to the past decade.<ref>See [[Steven Angelides]], ''The Fear of Child Sexuality'' (2019); See also, the work of [[Gert Hekma]] and [[Philip Jenkins]].</ref> Before the 1980s, critical thinking around [[pedophilia]] and age-gap sex had been more common and socially acceptable to express. In 1976, for example, in a submission to the Criminal Law Revision Committee of the British Parliament, the NCCL argued that "Childhood sexual experiences, willingly engaged in, with an adult [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|result in no identifiable damage]]... The real need is a change in the attitude which assumes that all cases of paedophilia result in lasting damage". The NCCL argued that the "onus of proof [was] on the prosecution to show that the child was actually harmed," rather than having a blanket ban on [[child pornography]], and advocated the decriminalization of [[Research:_Double-Taboo_CSA|incest]].<ref>Mason, Rowena. [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/24/harriet-harman-daily-mail-paedophile-campaign-allegations "Harriet Harman rejects allegations of 1970s link to paedophile campaign"]. ''The Guardian'', Feb 2014.</ref>

According to British academic Christopher Moores (2017), "Pollard provided the main link between the NCCL and PIE."<ref>Christopher Moores, ''Civil liberties and Human Rights in Twentieth-Century Britain'' (Cambridge University Press, 2017), p. 195. [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/22436a9783116d53bf7ab8527bea913f Annas Archive PDF link]].</ref> "She aligned paedophile rights with a broader politics of sexual liberation," wrote Moores, "picking up on developing arguments that sexual values and ages of consent [...] were culturally and socially constructed, rather than biologically determined." (''Ibid''., pp. 195-196).

Pollard spoke at [[PIE]]'s Annual General Meeting (AGM) in 1977, offering legal advice about homosexuality and the law as well as supplying members with NCCL fact-sheets on arrests. In the same year, PIE Chairman [[Thomas_O'Carroll|Tom O'Carroll]] spoke at a conference on the treatment of sexual offenders in prison, organized by the NCCL Gay Rights Sub-Committee. When the British retail chain [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHSmith W. H. Smith] banned the newspaper ''Gay News'' in 1976 because the publication featured PIE's advertisements, Pollard argued on behalf of the NCCL that this amounted to [[censorship]] determined not by the law, but by ignorance and prejudice.<ref>''Ibid''., pp. 196-197. The passages here are freely adapted from information in Moores (2017), with attribution.</ref>

Whilst most of Nettie's published writing concerns debates about pornography, Moores found an archived letter addressed to the lesbian magazine ''Sequel'' and written under the name 'Nettie', in which the author described pedophiles as the "most horrifically oppressed of sexual minorities." 'Nettie' argued that the law should distinguish between tender and violent acts ("which no one in their right mind would condone"), and concluded by stating that "some of the most equal and least exploitative relationships I know of between adults and children have been sexual ones." (''Ibid''., pp. 200-201).<ref>Citation: ‘Nettie’, ‘Paedophilia’ in ''Sequel Magazine'', undated article, U DCL 687/7.</ref>

For Moores, it is "highly likely" that this letter was written by Nettie Pollard, "given the letter's position in folders of material which she compiled." (p. 201). The only other record of Nettie writing about [[MAP]] issues under her own name, comes from a 1993 book chapter called "The Small Matter of Children," which displays similar language and ideas.<ref>For example, both 'Nettie's' argued that society refuses to take children's desires and ideas seriously...</ref>

Nettie commented that NCCL's part in "the battle for gay rights is a long and often boring one." (''Ibid.'', p. 194).<ref>According to Moores (p. 194): "The Sub-Committees tasks included lobbying for copies of Gay News to be delivered to prisons, encouraging provincial newspapers to publish adverts for gay switchboards and offering legal advice on prosecutions of gay men. It advised those seeking to ‘come out’, and individuals experiencing everyday challenges of publicly identifying and being identified as homosexual. Advice aside, most attention was given to issues around homosexuality and employment; monitoring individual cases and employment tribunals of those who felt they had been dismissed because of their sexual preferences. [...] If the association with PIE was problematic, it is crucial to mention that the volume and tone of the majority of correspondence on gay rights that came into the NCCL’s office, many of which are moving accounts of those who felt they did not belong, are reminders about the profound and varied inequalities in place for homosexuals in contemporary Britain."</ref> Unlike the Women's Rights Sub-Committee, the Gay Rights Sub-Committee was more independent and sometimes detached from the rest of the organization.<ref>''Ibid''., p. 195. Quote: "The post of a gay rights officer was created following a targeted grant offered by a single wealthy individual to support the post. Those donating to the Sub-Committee often specified that money should be spent on gay rights work and not on the rest of the NCCL’s programme; it recruited its own volunteers, granting it a degree of autonomy.250 Nettie Pollard’s salary as gay rights organizer was covered by specific grants to be directed towards gay rights work. In fact, the Sub Committee was considered an ‘unofficial body’, further reducing the oversight of the NCCL Executive and leadership."</ref> Whilst Nettie's job description covered ‘receptionist duties’, she also ran the organization's switchboard, generated most of
the Sub-Committee's paperwork, and was well-versed in legal issues relating to homosexuality (''Ibid.'').<ref>As Moores put it, "She connected her own politics and career choice with a wide and long-standing interest in civil rights. Seeing the world from such a perspective meant that Pollard was able to find continuities between less controversial issues typical of the NCCL's work, such as [...] supporting those discriminated against at work, and helping transsexuals forced into guilty pleas for soliciting, with the type of legal challenge raised by PAL and [[PIE]]." p. 195.</ref>
[[File:559396947-460578928-Nettie 05.jpg|300px|thumb|right|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.]]
Since the [[age of consent]] for male sexual intercourse was 21 at the time but 16 for heterosexuals, it was widely argued that the age should be reduced to 16 for both sexes.<ref>Moores, p. 196: "With the age of consent for male homosexuality in England and Wales so markedly out of sync with that for heterosexual intercourse, the GLF was particularly interested in the subject which was typically used to demonstrate the continuing patterns of inequality and discrimination in the sexual sphere. As conservative moral crusaders focussed on paedophilia in their efforts to preserve the unequal age of consent, certain groups saw the issue as the ‘next front’ in a longer-term battle against prejudice and in support of sexual liberation."</ref> This legal disparity, in addition to homosexuality still being highly stigmatized as "sinful," "unnatural," or a symptom of disease / mental illness, meant that teiliophilic homosexuals were more likely to criticize age of consent laws and support other non-normative sexual attractions and practices. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have explained this phenomenon with reference to [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle," where the boundaries of accepted sexual expression were once "so narrow that those who were cast outside its limits shared common ground."<ref>Rachel Hope Cleves, ''Unspeakable: A Life Beyond Sexual Morality'' (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2020), p. 13.</ref> "Identity categories that are distant from each other today — like loose women, lesbians, and [[Pederasty|pederasts]] — were more proximate when they were all outside the charmed circle."<ref>"[[Pederasty]]," Cleves wrote, "was less taboo before the 1950s, in effect, because so many other behaviors were disreputable as well. Pederasty was less distinct from other types of sexual non-conformity." (''Ibid.'').</ref> Because teiliophilic homosexuality was so taboo during Nettie's era, gay rights campaigners had what Moores (2017) calls "shared interests" in criticizing the [[age of consent]] and defending the civil liberties of other sexual minorities; i.e., "Pollard became sympathetic to PIE's endeavors." (p. 196)...
[[File:Gayle Rubin's charmed circle.png|200px|thumb|left|Gayle Rubin's "Charmed Circle"]]
At some point, Nettie joined PIE. She was member number 70. In May 1975, [[PIE]] announced that it affiliated to the NCCL, which had joined following an invitation from Nettie. Both the first Chairperson of PIE - Keith Hose - and his successor [[Tom O'Carroll]] - were at times members of the NCCL's sub-committee for gay rights. For his influential book ''[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]'' (1980), O'Carroll gave his "heartfelt thanks" to Nettie, [[Ken Plummer]], and [[Donald West]], "each of whom read the whole text in draft and made many valuable suggestions."

Nettie was also active in the [[The_Campaign_Against_Public_Morals|Campaign Against Public Morals]], a group created to defend and support PIE members who faced legal battles for "conspiracy" and speech offences in 1981, highlighting what she saw as "the absurdity of conspiracy laws".<ref>Presland. Op. cit.</ref> "Intensely loyal on a personal level," wrote Presland, Nettie "supported individuals trapped by these catch-all offences through times of imprisonment and beyond."<ref>Op. cit.</ref>

The British art curator and gay activist [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-barry-prothero-1313047.html Barry Prothero] - Nettie's colleague and fellow NCCL Gay Rights Officer - attended some of the PIE trial proceedings. He wrote to gay rights campaigners in Canada such as [[Gerald Hannon]] of the ''Body Politic'', and in correspondence named British diplomat [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hayman_(diplomat) Sir Peter Hayman] as the reason for a 'cover-up' by the British authorities. "It is clear that most of the evidence that was not used was dropped because Hayman [...] was the central figure in its production," he wrote, adding that "although assisting in a “cover-up” may be distasteful, not only the defendants but the entire gay movement in this country would be delighted if this one [i.e. cover-up] succeeded in order to keep the case out of court."<ref>See Moores (2017), Op. Cit. Pages 199-200.</ref>

During this period, two lawyers associated with the NCCL, Sir [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Thornton_(judge) Peter Thornton]<ref>See his [https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/sir-peter-thornton-1 KCL University profile] which describes his extensive work and writings on civil liberties issues, noting that "As Chair of the National Council for Liberties and the Civil Liberties Trust, he lobbied Parliament over the ‘sus’ law, identification evidence, confessions and the right to public protest." For discussion, see [https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/mar/25/who-judges-the-judges ''Guardian'' article].</ref> and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Fulford Adrian Fulford] (later Lord Justice Fulford), the latter a member of the NCCL's Gay Rights Sub-Committee, defended members of PIE in court.<ref>Note: These individuals defended PIE members in court during the late 1970s and early 1980s, but not under NCCL auspices.</ref> According to Moores,

<blockquote>''The NCCL was also concerned about issues of employment and privacy for individuals who had not committed any crimes. The ‘exposure’ of paedophiles in the media was, to its Gay Rights Sub Committee, very worrying. In particular, it expressed concern about the way in which a group of men, who had not been convicted or charged for offences, were described in the Sunday People exposure of PAL as the ‘Vilest Men in Britain’. The Gay Rights Sub-Committee supported [[Tom O'Carroll]] when he was sacked from his post as Press Officer at the Open University (over which he was also defended by the National Union of Journalists and the Association of University Teachers, who feared that the case might set precedents for dismissing those with [[Communism|‘Marxist views’]])". [...] Pollard and those on her sub-committee closely monitored attempts to prosecute PIE leaders [... and were] especially anxious about the charge of ‘conspiracy to corrupt public morals’. PIE members were charged on conspiracy, obscenity and postal offences; it is worth remembering that at the time no offences against children were raised and no evidence was produced that demonstrated that an adult met a child through PIE.'' (p. 198).</blockquote>

The NCCL had some more general concerns," Moores explains, "about the use of conspiracy charges during the 1970s, citing their misuse during industrial disputes, the trials of members of the Angry Brigade in 1972, and ways in which they were used as non-specific ‘catch-all’ mechanisms for policing" (''Ibid.''). In later years, the NCCL's relationship to [[PIE]] were the subject of intense media scrutiny, implicating senior public figures such as [[Harriet Harman]].
[[File:CHEPedophileSupport1983.jpg|thumb|CHE support for PIE (1983)]]

==PIE, CHE, and Youth Rights==

Nettie Pollard played a leading role in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Equality Campaign for Homosexual Equality], who voted to support PIE at their 1975 conference, and defended PIE's right to speak and organize freely at their 1983 conference. Earlier in 1974, the CHE made statements of solidarity with PIE at its annual conference, and included adverts for the group in its ''Bulletin''.

In May 1974, CHE's Working Party on Law Reform proposed lowering the age of consent to 16, or 12 in some legal cases. At the time 200-300 youth, mostly young men between 16-20 years old, were being prosecuted for consensual homosexual acts every year. After internal review, in 1973, the idea of twelve for the [[age of consent]] was dropped. In 1977, CHE passed a resolution at its conference, "supported by the vast majority of delegates", which condemned press harassment of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]].<ref>Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Equality Wikipedia].</ref>

CHE "urged caution in responding to PIE, noting ‘as victims of prejudice ourselves’ it was important to think about how wrong information and misconceptions ‘might prevent understanding’." (Moores, 2017, p. 207). In 1984, when PIE was in the process of winding up, the CHE continued to recognize that pedophiles still had rights and that it would not ‘disown’ the organization. (''Ibid''.).

In 2010/2011, CHE's annual report shows they had two PIE members on their Executive Commitee – [[Barry Cutler]] & Nettie Pollard. The links between gay rights groups, PIE, and gay activists such as Nettie, have been explored in historian Lucy Robinson's book ''Gay Men and the Left in Post-War Britain: How the Personal Got Political'' (Manchester University Press, 2007).<ref>Robinson, L. (2007). [http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt155jf8t ''Gay men and the Left in post-war Britain: How the personal got political''] (Manchester University Press).</ref>

==Feminists Against Censorship and Later Years==

In the 1990s, Nettie began to focus on defending the civil liberties of sex workers, porn viewers / producers, and arguing against pornography's criminalization more broadly. She participated in a UK-based sexual freedom group which held 'clothing-optional' meetings, and which published the "Lesbian and Gay Freedom Movement" newsletter. This rare, not widely known newsletter, argued against [[age of consent]] laws, criticizing the stigmatization and criminalization of what the group saw as harmless, consensual, but non-normative sexual practices.<ref>For discussion of the relatively obscure "Lesbian and Gay Freedom Movement" newsletter, see [https://gittings.qzap.org/lgfm-newsletter/ this Anarchist Zine website].</ref>

During this period, Nettie began writing more. She summarized four then-recent books on pornography for the ''Libertarian Alliance'' in "The modern pornography debates" (1994),<ref>Nettie Pollard, "The modern pornography debates", in ''Libertarian Alliance Pamphlet'' No. 22 (1994). [[https://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/ncropa/ncropa-lib-10.pdf PDF Online]]</ref> co-authored with Avedon Carol "Only Words; Making Violence Sexy: Feminist Views on Pornography" (1994),<ref>Avedon Carol and Nettie Pollard, (1994). [https://heinonline.org/hol-cgi-bin/get_pdf.cgi?handle=hein.journals/tojmedlp15&section=45 "Only Words; Making Violence Sexy: Feminist Views on Pornography"], in ''Media Law & Practice'', Vol. 15, No. 3.</ref> and authored a chapter in ''Tales from the Clit: A Female Experience of Pornography'' (1996) - advertized as "True stories from some of the world's most pro-sex feminists."<ref>Cherie Matrix; Feminists Against Censorship (Organization), ''Tales From The Clit: A Female Experience Of Pornography Female Experience Of Pornography'' (AK Press, 1996). [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/95a247e43fc3285f0e4345c201962436 Annas Archive PDF] link]</ref>

In 1994, Nettie received an award for being a "Campaigner for Sexual Freedom," from the Erotic Oscars (later renamed the [https://www.artandpopularculture.com/Erotic_Awards Sexual Freedom Awards]) - an annual event started by her friend Tuppy Owens.<ref>See [https://grokipedia.com/page/Tuppy_Owens Tuppy Owens] - Grokpedia. Note that Tuppy Owens had a chapter in conversation with [[Tom O'Carroll]], Chairperson of [[PIE]], in The [[The_Betrayal_of_Youth_(Book)|''Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'']] (London: CL Publications, 1986). Tuppy Owens also has a chapter in ''Tales from the Clit: A Female Experience of Pornography'' (1996), cited above.</ref> After being made redundant from the NCCL in 1997, Nettie joined [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminists_Against_Censorship Feminists Against Censorship]. She was prominent in the [[wikipedia:Operation_Spanner|1990s Spanner defense campaign]], where gay S/M practitioners had been prosecuted for consensual sex.
She also joined the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Equality Campaign for Homosexual Equality]'s executive committee in 2009, and campaigned for LGBT+ migrants and asylum seekers, including personally organizing finance and defense for several people whose chances of asylum were written off by others.

Nettie published her most overt perspective on [[MAP]] related issues, in a book chapter titled "The Small Matter of Children." Published in ''Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism'' (1993), edited by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol,<ref>Avedon Carol being Nettie's friend, the founder of Feminists Against Censorship, and co-author of "Changing Perceptions of the Feminist Debate" with Nettie in the same volume. See also, [https://grokipedia.com/page/avedon_carol Avedon Carol] - Grokpedia.</ref> the book included contributions from [[Gayle Rubin]] and Tuppy Owens among others. For her part, Nettie argued that "The British [[Feminism|feminist movement]] has never really addressed the issue of children's liberation."<ref>Nettie Pollard, 'The Small Matter of Children,' in ''Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism'', ed. by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol (Boulder, Colorado: Pluto Press, 1993), pp. 105-111. [[https://www.jstor.org/stable/jj.38401871.21 Jstor] link]. [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/38138de0c0ef229d5cd9075b1661275a Annas Archive PDF] link].</ref> She criticized how the women's movement "would sometimes even cooperate with the most vicious arms of the patriarchal state." Raising the case of anti-'snuff film' campaigns, she wrote that:

<blockquote>''To date, no ‘snuff’ movie, (i.e. where actors are actually killed), has been discovered by police anywhere in the world. No bodies have ever been discovered, and ‘Operation Orchid’ seems to have disappeared, but fear and loathing have been implanted in women's minds.''</blockquote>

Nettie argued that research has shown that "Far from being [[Childhood_Innocence|‘innocent’]] and becoming sexual at [[Adolescence|puberty]], as was once the common belief, it is now indisputable that everyone is sexual, [[Childhood_Innocence|even before birth]]. Erection in males is detected in the womb from 29 weeks [...] The vagina is responsive sexually from birth in cyclic lubrication." (p. 108). She explains why past campaign groups (even those led by school students) have lacked involvement by younger children, and provides a lengthy description of [[Research:_Secondary_Harm|secondary victimization]] in cases of [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|mutually willing]] but unlawful age-gap sex. For Nettie,

<blockquote>''The current [[moral panic]] about child abuse has pushed back our recognition of children as sexual actors rather than as merely victims. Denial of children’s sexuality, and the fear that they may be sexually attacked, in fact makes them far more vulnerable to abusive situations. If children are informed about their bodies and how they function, and about what sexuality is, this awareness, in itself, means that children can be much less easily led into unwelcome situations by ignorance of what is really going on. If children know that their bodies and sexuality are their own and should be under their own control, and that sex is not forbidden or dirty, then they are much more confident when it comes to getting what they really want and refusing what they don’t want. In the event of a genuine assault or abusive situation, children who are not taught that sex is shameful can much more easily come forward, report the situation and get something done about it. (p. 109)''</blockquote>

She concludes:
<blockquote>
''Creating an atmosphere in which sex is understood to be acceptable in a non-violent, non-coercive, mutual environment does not teach children to accept brutal assaults; ignorance supported by scare tactics does not arm children against exploitative adults. Yet, in this over-protective and paternalistic time, scare tactics have become our sole means of ‘protecting’ children. We accept attacks on gays or on the porn industry because we have been conned into believing that somehow suppressing sexual adventure and deviance will automatically — illogically — provide some safety for children. It won't.''

''Yet merely eliminating harmful age of consent laws will not be sufficient to make children safe and free. To achieve this, children need social and economic power, as well as respect, in every sphere of life, for their needs and desires. Children must be taught as early as possible that their opinions matter, that their experience is valid, and that their bodies are their own possessions, that they can defend themselves against psychological, economic and physical abuses. Just as women couldn’t be autonomous while they were virtually owned by their husbands – we couldn’t own our own money, and it was entirely legal for husbands to beat and rape us – so children are left dependent and victimized by the present situation. Until children have economic power and the right to make their own decisions about choices ranging from schools, clothes and food to friendships and sexuality, children, like women, will not have sexual autonomy.''
</blockquote>

Confined at home first by long Covid, and then by undiagnosed colorectal cancer, Nettie maintained a huge friendship network and an abiding concern with a variety of progressive causes. In the words of her friend, "She became a Queer National Treasure."<ref>Presland. Op. cit.</ref>

Nettie Pollard died on Christmas Day, 2025, aged 76.

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:609920541-218784087-Nettie 21.png|Nettie and her friend, fellow GLF veteran activist Ted Brown.
File:966528151-420033740-Nettie 20.png|Nettie interviewed by Attitude Magazine in 2022, alongside [[Peter Tatchell]] and Ted Brown.
File:Nettie Tatchell 2.jpg|The 1971 GLF Miss World protest, with [[Peter Tatchell]] (on far right) and Nettie Pollard (second from right).
File:Tatchell 1972.jpg|Nettie's friends. L-R: Ted Brown, his partner Noel Glynn, and famous gay activist Peter Tatchell. Young Gay Liberation Front activists photographed in 1972.
File:559396947-460578928-Nettie 05.jpg|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:563879905-163949554-Nettie 06.jpg|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK. Members names listed.
File:667197312-350175245-Nettie 07.jpg|Nettie Pollard pictured / featured on the far-left, in "Are you Proud?" film poster. Her friend Ted Brown is pictured, as is [[Peter Tatchell]] (in a purple suit on the right).
File:456478275-973158936-Nettie 08.jpg|Nettie at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:209666243-369537062-Nettie 09.jpg|Nettie pictured next to GLF activist Noel Glynn, with her friend [[Peter Scott-Presland]] to the right of the picture. The banner / poster next to them refers to the British activist group "CHE" - the Campaign for Homosexual Equality - for which Presland has written the organization's official history.
File:255532816-331476931-Nettie 10.jpg|Nettie speaking at the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:550334764-417714961-Nettie 11.jpg|50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK. [[Peter Tatchell]] is in the center.
File:777698522-297628350-Nettie 12.jpg|Ted Brown speaking at an indoor event / after party hosted for the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK. Nettie Pollard stands in the background.
File:247662599-213194942-Nettie 13.jpg|A published historical profile of the GLF.
File:533196382-535113777-Nettie 14.jpg|Nettie speaking at an indoor event / after party hosted for the 50th anniversary of the GLF, London UK.
File:490009833-638400917-Nettie 03.jpeg|Nettie surrounded by Leftist books.
File:790812844-155098666-Nettie 04.jpeg|Nettie in her final days...
</gallery>

==External Links==
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjiJcIiCwvA Nettie Pollard and Michael Parkes on Icebreakers and GLF] (Video interview published on Youtube by LSE Library, Jul 19, 2024)
*[https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/Documents/Detail/nettie-pollard/638417?item=638418 Interview with Nettie Pollard] (audio only, transcript available) conducted in 2023 as part of LSE University's GLF Collections - an open-access online repository of documents and oral interviews with GLF activists.
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oiu-YluGtIM Nettie Pollard, original Gay Liberation Front activist, reading John Chesterman's 1970 demands] (Posted to Youtube by Dan Glass, April 3rd, 2020) - Video description reads: "Nettie Pollard, Gay Liberation Front (GLF) activist, reading John Chesterman's original GLF demands from 1970 at the 'Absolute Freedom for all Party – Gay Liberation Front 50th Birthday Party' - March 2020 at London School of Economics (LSE) - where it all began!"
*[https://gayliberationfrontuk.com/demands/ John Chesterman's Gay Liberation Front demands, written in 1970] - Nettie loved to quote them!
*[https://www.attitude.co.uk/life/nettie-pollard-obituary-lesbian-activist-civil-rights-515061/ Remembering Nettie Pollard: pioneering lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner] (''Attitude Magazine'', 2 March 2026) - Obituary by [[Peter Scott-Presland]].

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]]

Paedophile Information Exchange

2026-08-02T20:59:45Z

Prue: /* Members not mentioned */

[[Image:Pie.PNG|thumb|right|PIE Logo, Jul. 1978]]<div style="margin-right: 25px; float: left;">__TOC__</div>The '''Paedophile Information Exchange''' (PIE) was a prominent UK [[MAP Movement|pedophile]] group, founded in October 1974. It disbanded in 1984.

The organization is best known for a series of scandalous mainstream media stories, in which it was claimed to have had some of its stationery functions carried out from a room at the UK Home Office (department of state - see gallery), to have been funded by them<ref>[https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paedophile-information-exchange-taxpayers-cash-3197625 Huge sums of TAXPAYER'S cash 'handed to vile child-sex pervert group' by Home Office officials - Mirror]</ref><ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571632/Home-Office-gave-Paedophile-Information-Exchange-70-000-Group-allegedly-given-taxpayers-money-1977-1980.html Home Office 'gave Paedophile Information Exchange £70,000': Group allegedly given taxpayers' money between 1977 and 1980 - Mail]</ref> (denied, after investigation<ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/07/no-evidence-home-office-funded-paedophile-group No evidence that Home Office funded paedophile group, review finds - Guardian]</ref>), to have been supported by [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|numerous gay chartities]] and the NCCL, i.e. ''[[Liberty]]'' (substantiated<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20100604170332/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/4949555/Harriet-Harman-under-attack-over-bid-to-water-down-child-pornography-law.html Telegraph - Harman under attack]</ref><ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/25/harriet-harman-daily-mail-argument-nccl-link-pie Harman v Daily Mail: claims and counterclaims over NCCL's link to PIE]</ref>). Various high-ranking members of the Labour Party such as [[Harriet Harman]] and Patricia Hewitt have also been dogged by controversy surrounding former associations with PIE by proxy of NCCL.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/6QmqeNhZfQVyLDoNXFJmzh Short interview on PIE's history with NCCL]</ref>

It is important to remember that, although PIE had a membership system, it had no way to vet members unless they came to a meeting in-person. If individuals paid a fee and stated they agreed with the group's constitution, they could join under any name including a pseudonym. In the 2020s, there have been investigations into those who signed up to be members, revealing individuals who were not known or never met by the small group of dedicated activists which made up PIE's in-person Executive Committee. We list known PIE members below.

==Fatal flaw==

According to PIE Chairperson [[Thomas O'Carroll]], author of ''[[Paedophilia: The Radical Case]]'' (1980):

:''"We made a terrible mistake ... we were trying to be a political organisation and at the same time we were trying to be a support organisation."''<ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/26/lobbying-paedophile-campaign-revealed-hewitt Guardian: Patricia Hewitt]</ref>

Rather than lobbying / agitating parliament and the media to reform [[age of consent]] law, modern day support organizations have a different focus - namely the mental health of MAPs.

==Early history and activity==
PIE was set up as a special interest group within the Scottish Minorities Group by founder members [[Michael Hanson]], who became the group's first Chairperson, and [[Ian Campbell Dunn]].

Since the majority of enquiries were from England, PIE relocated to London in 1975 where 23-year old [[Keith Hose]] became its new Chairperson. Hose had connections with the South London group of the [[Gay Liberation Front]] (GLF). GLF thinking questioned the family as the basis of an economic, social and sexual system and certain sections of GLF favoured the abolition of the [[Age of Consent]]; their youth group had staged a march in support of this demand (however, it should be noted that the age of consent for homosexuals was 21 at the time, in comparison to 16 for heterosexuals).

[[Paedophile Action for Liberation]] (PAL) had developed as a breakaway group from South London Gay Liberation Front. It was the subject of an article in the Sunday People, which dedicated its front page and centre-spread to the story. The result was intimidation and loss of employment for some of those who were exposed. PAL later merged with PIE.

This expose on PAL had a chilling effect on PIE members' willingness for activism. In the PIE Chairperson's Annual Report for 1975-6, Keith Hose wrote that 'The only way for PIE to survive, was to seek out as much publicity for the organization as possible.... If we got bad publicity we would not run into a corner but stand and fight. We felt that the only way to get more paedophiles joining P I E... was to seek out and try to get all kinds of publications to print our organization's name and address and to make pedophilia a real public issue.'

A campaign to attract media attention was not effective at that time, but Hose's attendance at the 1975 annual conference of the [[Campaign for Homosexual Equality]] (CHE) in Sheffield, where he made an impassioned speech on paedophilia, was covered at length in The Guardian.
[[Image:Piexchange.jpg|frame|PIE Sticker (1980s)]]
In the same year Hose also attended a conference organized by MIND, the national mental health organization, where it was suggested that PIE should submit evidence to the Home Office Criminal Law Revision Committee on the age of consent. PIE submitted a 17-page document in which it proposed that there should be no age of consent, and that the criminal law should concern itself only with sexual activities to which consent is not given, or which continue after prohibition by a civil court.

PIE was set up to campaign for an acceptance and understanding of pedophilia by producing thought provoking and controversial documents. But its formally defined aims also included giving advice and counsel to pedophiles who wanted it, and providing a means for pedophiles to contact one another.

To this end it held regular meetings in London but also had a 'Contact Page', which was a bulletin in which members placed advertisements, giving their membership number, general location, and brief details of their sexual and other interests. Replies were handled by PIE, as with a box number system, so that correspondents were unidentifiable until they chose to exchange their own details. Since the purpose of this contact page was to enable paedophiles to contact one another, advertisements implying that contact with children was sought and advertisements for erotica were turned down. The Contact Page ultimately resulted in a prosecution for a 'conspiracy to corrupt public morals'.

PIE produced regular magazines that were distributed to members. The original ''Newsletter'' was superseded in 1976 by ''Understanding Paedophilia'', which was intended to be sold in radical bookshops and be distributed free to PIE members. It was mainly the concern of [[Warren Middleton]], who attempted to make the magazine a serious journal that included extracts from sensitive paedophilic literature and articles from psychologists with the aim of establishing the respectability of paedophilic love.

When Middleton ceased active work with PIE, ''Understanding Paedophilia'' was replaced by the magazine ''Magpie'', which was more of a compromise between the proselytising of the earlier publication and a lively forum for members. It contained news, book and film reviews, articles, non-nude photographs of children, humour about paedophilia, letters and other contributions by members.

In 1977 PIE produced another regular publication called ''Childhood Rights''. When the editor ('David') retired, this content was assimilated into ''Magpie''.

In 1976 both PIE and PAL had been asked to help the Albany Trust to produce a booklet on paedophilia which was to have been published by the Trust. This collaboration was 'uncovered' by [[Mary Whitehouse]], who alleged that public funds were being used indirectly to subsidize 'paedophile groups'. The Albany Trust was partly supported by government grants. The Trustees decided not to publish the booklet, saying that it wasn't sufficiently 'objective'. A year later a question was asked Parliament by Sir Bernard Braine but, despite a statement by Home Office Minister Brynmor John that there was no evidence of public money going to PIE, the issue was drawn out into 1978 in the letters pages of The Guardian and The Times.

[[File:Mc-PIE-Pride-1983-768x1024 by Bob Workman.jpg|thumb|Loud and proud: A PIE contingent at London Gay Pride in 1983 proclaims the MAP message]]

== Press Coverage and Publicity ==

In May 1977 the Guardian columnist Tom Crabtree wrote about PIE, saying they needed to 'come out into the open and argue their case where everybody can hear it'. PIE complained about the article to the Press Council and received a judgement in its favour in December 1977.

PIE's Secretary, 'David', organised a public meeting to take place on 1 September 1977 at which Dutch lawyer and member of the Senate of the Netherlands, Dr [[Edward Brongersma]], had been invited to speak. Approximately 150 tickets were sent to the press and to organizations such as MIND and the National Council for Civil Liberties. The event was intended mainly as a press event but was also advertised in Time Out and New Society.

Before the meeting, the Daily Telegraph published an interview with 'David' by Gerard Kemp that was printed on August 23. This interview generated a significant amount of follow-up interest by other parts of the press: the Daily Mirror printed a front page story with the headline 'CHILDREN IN SEX SHOCKER'. Other papers carried similar reports, and some began to exert pressure on the management of the hotel which was due to be the venue of the September 1 meeting. Once the hotel had been identified, its management had to contend with threats of damage and violence. The hotel withdrew from holding the meeting, and the headline of the next day's Daily Mirror was 'BOOTED OUT!'

On 28 August, the Sunday Mirror reported that PIE was 'hell-bent on airing their revolting views in public' at a secret new meeting place. The paper's editorial that day said
:'The Open University, which employs Mr. Tom O'Carroll, says that what any staff member does in his own time is his own business. However, it DOES expect to discuss Mr. O'Carroll's paedophile activities with him on his return from holiday. We say the Open University should go further. IT SHOULD FIRE HIM IMMEDIATELY.'

A few days earlier the Daily Telegraph proclaimed 'Child sex man is youth group administrator'.
The Telegraph had tracked down PIE's Treasurer, 'Charles', to his job as chief administrator of a young people's welfare organization. The pressure of media attention caused Charles to offer to resign from this organisation, but its management council refused to accept his offer; they did, however, request that he withdraw as Treasurer of PIE, and he did so. But following continued reporting over the next few days Charles once more offered his resignation - and it was accepted.

The cancelled meeting was re-scheduled for Monday, 19 September 1977, at the Conway Hall in Red Lion Square, London.
This Square had become famous as a location of clashes between right-wing and left-wing extremists and where a demonstrator had died in 1974. Newspapers were still interested in PIE stories and so the new venue had already been mentioned in all the national newspapers. The meeting went ahead with some GLF veterans acting as stewards. Richard McCance, former Vice Chairperson of CHE, reported the meeting:
:'Linking arms, marching abreast, women and men together, we succeeded in entering the hall, despite flower, fruit and veg, despite being clawed and spat at, kicked and punched by many of the hundred or so who awaited our arrival like starved dogs. Over the next hour about another hundred staggered in, like the battle-scarred reporter from the Daily Telegraph, his face bleeding, raked down by fingernails. Others arrived with torn clothing. Those who tried to enter on their own were led away bleeding from head wounds to a police van. There were only four policemen on duty at this time
: 'As the meeting began, I looked at the growing crowd (now several hundred strong) and recognized from previous demos several prominent [[National Front]] thugs and sympathizers - male and female - including Dereck Day, who was featured in the Observer article on the National Front.'

British sociologist [[Ken Plummer]], who had joined PIE to conduct research on the life histories of paedophiles (among other sexual variations), reported his experience of the conference in a 1979 book chapter "Images of Paedophilia".<ref>See our page on Ken Plummer for a link to this chapter and more of [[Ken Plummer|Plummer's work]].</ref> He wrote:
[[File:PIE Poster.jpg|thumb|A PIE poster / graphic showing the organization's output]]
: "The Conway Hall meeting brought problems. Outside, a crowd of a hundred protesters gathered - with the National Front highly visible; inside, there was no speaker - [Dr. Edward] Brongersma had returned (disgustedly) to Holland, and a new speaker had been forbidden by the church to attend. Nevertheless, about 100 people (mainly non-pedophile) did meet peacefully and successfully to discuss the age of consent inside the hall. [...] I spent 2 hours talking with about thirty people outside the meeting — as they waited to attack the departing pedophiles. [...] Apart from a few passers-by who thought the meeting should take place, and one elderly man upset at not being let into the meeting, everybody I spoke with voiced anger and disgust at both the meeting and pedophilia. [...] The remarks I gathered harboured a number of common images about the pedophile, the child and the pedophiliac relationship. While there is little scientific research in this field - and what exists usually depends upon biased psychiatric and prison samples — it does suggest that these images are out of harmony with reality."

The meeting was widely covered the next morning, with many papers using it as a lead story. The reports mainly concerned the protests and paid little attention to the discussion in the hall.

In June 1978, the [[News of the World]] ran a three-page article on the Paedophile Information Exchange based on a report of the PIE annual general meeting held the week before, which had been infiltrated by a journalist from the News of the World who had become a PIE member some months before. The report named seven members and included photographs of them. On of the people named was [[Thomas O'Carroll|Thomas "Tom" O'Carroll]], who by September 1977 had become the Chairperson of PIE.

==Legal action against members==

[[File:DavidJoyStevenSmithPIE.jpg|thumb|Stylish PIE members Steven Smith (L) and David Joy (R) arrive at court]]
In the summer of 1978, the homes of several PIE committee members were raided by the police as part of a full-scale inquiry into PIE's activities; as a result of this inquiry, a substantial report was submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions and the prosecution of PIE activists followed.

In particular, five activists were charged with printing contact advertisements in Magpie which were calculated to promote indecent acts between adults and children.

Others were offered lesser charges of sending indecent material through the mail if they testified against the five. These charges related to letters that the accused exchanged detailing various sexual fantasies. It eventually became clear that one person had corresponded with most of the accused but had not been tried. After the trial, it emerged that there had been a cover-up: Mr "Henderson" had worked for MI6 and been a high commissioner in [[Canada]].

The late Steven Adrian Smith (later [[Stephen Freeman]]) was Chairperson of PIE from 1979 to 1985. He was one of the PIE executive committee members charged in connection with the contact advertisements; he fled to Holland before the trial.

In 1981 the former PIE Chairperson, Tom O’Carroll, was convicted on the conspiracy charge and sentenced to two years in prison. O'Carroll had been working on ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' in the period between the initial police raid and the trial. While the charges did not relate in any way to the publication of the book, the fact that he had written it was listed by the judge as a factor in determining the length of his sentence.

In 1984 the Times reported that two former executive committee members of PIE had been convicted on child pornography charges but acquitted on charges of incitement to commit unlawful sexual acts with children and that the group's leader had fled the country while on bail. It was announced that the group was closing down in the PIE ''Bulletin'' of July 1984.

==Surveys==

In 1978-9, the Paedophile Information Exchange surveyed its members and found that they were most attracted to girls aged 8-11 and boys aged 11-15. In 1978, Glenn Wilson and David Cox approached Mr O’Carroll with a request to study the PIE membership. A meeting was held with the PIE leadership to vet the survey instruments and, after approval, these were distributed to PIE members in the course of their regular mailing.

==Relevance today==

Despite the fact that PIE disbanded in 1984, the name still seems to have some power and crops up from time to time in discussions. In the discussions of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill in 2000, Sir Paul Beresford had this to say, for example:

:''"Lightheartedly, I should like to ask the Minister to put himself in the shoes of a well-known paedophile--perhaps we could call him Gary, and imagine a little more hair and some high-heeled shoes to add some character. As a paedophile, Gary believes that it is acceptable to have sex with children. He thinks that the bulk of society is completely out of step. He belongs to a group called the paedophile information exchange, and he and his disgusting friends use the internet to exchange data, ideas, names, photographs and even films related to their paedophile activities. That is all stored electronically, and protected by a sophisticated encryption system"''.

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:Pie77protest.png|1977 protest outside of PIE's first open meeting
File:1975Guardian.png|26th August 1975: Child-lovers win fight for role in Gay Lib (The Guardian)
CHEinTimes19Aug1977.png|CHE Support PIE in 1977 - Times
CHEPedophileSupport1983.jpg|CHE Support PIE in 1983
File:Standard071184.png|Child sex ring’s Home Office link - London Evening Standard (07.11.84)
File:PIEAOA.png|Survey of Paedophile Information Exchange members suggests that most would now be classified as [[Hebephilia|hebephiles]] - a term not in wide use at the time.
File:DavidJoyPIE.jpg|PIE member David Joy
</gallery>

==Members not mentioned==

*'''[[Nettie Pollard]]''' - PIE member number 70. Nettie was a major force in British Gay Liberation, attending and helping to organize the UK's first Gay Pride March in July, 1972. She served as the main bridge between PIE and the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL), as well as arguably the wider gay liberation movement. Nettie supported the sexual liberation and civil liberties of [[MAP]]s and [[AAM]]s until her death, and in homage to her, we have created an extensive page on her life and work...
*Dr. '''[[Peter Bremner]]''' - founder of PIE's East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee. Received 6 months in prison for speech offences, jailed for an infraction of the UK's now defunct Post Office Act.
*'''[[Leo Adamson]]'''
*'''John Parratt - alias of [[Warren Middleton]]''', who edited the anthology [[The_Betrayal_of_Youth_(Book)|Betrayal of Youth]] (1986) with contributions from LGBTQ+ activist [[Peter Tatchell]], [[Communism|Leftist]] thinkers like [[Roger Moody]] and [[John Lindsay]], and the [[Feminism|feminist]] author [[Beatrice Faust]].
*'''[https://wiki.scotlandonair.com/wiki/Christopher_Mylne Christopher Mylne]''' - An incredibly influential nature photographer. David Attenborough narrated at least one of his films. Private, not heavily involved, but friendly to PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]].<ref>''I spent a pleasant afternoon with Chris at his home in Linlithgow back in the late 1970s when I was up that way in connection with speaking engagements at the universities of Edinburgh and Glasgow. I guess he wrote and invited me when he was in PIE.

We must have talked about kids, and PIE stuff, but I don’t remember any of that. I’m sure I asked him lots of questions about his nature filming and I vaguely remember being impressed by the exotic travel his work involved. But I don’t think I quite grasped how professional and indeed distinguished his work was.'' - [https://heretictoc.com/2025/01/06/clearing-up-the-conceptual-confusion/ Tom O'Carroll (2025)].</ref>
*'''[[Brian Taylor]]''' - Sociologist and professor at the University of Sussex in the United Kingdom. As 'Humphrey Barton', Taylor was PIE's Research Director, in which capacity he contributed to its first magazine, ''Understanding Paedophilia''. Taylor/'Barton' then edited the new PIE publication, ''Magpie'', in 1977. Under his own name, he edited and wrote a lengthy introduction to ''Perspectives on Paedophilia'' (1986), and had earlier written the first and definitive biography of the Irish author [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Reid Forrest Reid], whose novels contain intergenerational themes and who may have been a [[MAP]] himself.<ref>See ''The Green Avenue: The Life and Writings of Forrest Reid, 1875-1947'' (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1980). [https://www.amazon.com/Green-Avenue-Writings-Forrest-1875-1947/dp/052113563X Amazon link].</ref> In an obituary for ''The Guardian'', his colleague Dr. David Harrison described him as "a genuine polymath," a "dependable, [...] reflective and critical thinker" whose "lectures [were] packed and delivered with erudition and humour."<ref>[https://www.academia.edu/38055871/Guardian_removes_obituary_to_sociologist_Brian_Taylor_without_informing_readers Brian Taylor Obituary, archived by an Anti whose intervention led to its removal from public view.]</ref>

==Associated Non-members==
*'''John Holmstrom''' (1927-2013) - Through his work with the Albany Trust, Holmstrom was one of three authors of PIE's Q&A pamphlet on pedophilia, alongside Keith Hose and Tom O'Carroll, which was sent to all UK Members of Parliament. Holmstrom was active in the struggle for sexual minority rights, and was willing to write about gay culture in the UK before male same sex intimacy was legalized.<ref>[https://jot101.com/2019/12/a-survey-of-homosexuality-in-the-theatre/?sfw=pass1738166541 John Holmstrom on Homosexuality].</ref> Holmstrom became extremely well-known as an announcer on BBC Radio 3. He was also a playwright, translator, theater critic, and shopkeeper. He founded Colts Of Hampstead, a fashion shop specializing in continental-style clothes for boys aged between 7 and 14. After retiring from the BBC, he compiled an encyclopaedia of child film actors called ''The Moving Picture Boy'' (1998).<ref>Holmstrom, ''The Moving Picture Boy: An International Encyclopaedia from 1895 to 1995''. [https://www.amazon.com/Moving-Picture-Boy-International-Encyclopaedia/dp/0859551784 Amazon link].</ref>

*'''Clifford Luton''' - a BBC reporter for 15 years between the 1960s and 1970s, and skilled Yachtsman.<ref>Founded the North Sea Cruise Association, in Dorset, 1964. He was a BBC Northern Ireland correspondent. He was investigated for being in a child abuse network with Morris Fraser and Nicholas Reynolds. He was thought to have links to the Azimuth Trust and was investigated, but no charges were brought. [https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/boats-and-child-abuse/ He was skilled yachtsman], with 28 foot boat Sarah Jane.</ref><ref>[https://scepticpeg.wordpress.com/2017/08/30/clifford-luton-ex-bbc-reporter/ Clifford Luton, ex-BBC reporter].</ref>

*'''Morris Fraser''' - Psychiatrist, and author of ''The Death of Narcissus'', which was about famous paedophilic authors, including [[J.M. Barrie]]. He ran the Azimuth Trust, a sailing charity for disadvantaged boys. He contributed a chapters to ''Perspectives on Paedophilia'', an important book of its time, edited by sociologist [[Brian Taylor]]. He was a close friend to Clifford Luton.

*'''[[Roger Moody]]''' - The 1st person to openly declare himself a "paedophile" in print. He was associated with PAL, but never joined PIE as a member.

==External Links and Sources==
*[https://fstube.net/w/pGZBnfLPUWk6ZX374xRZet 2014 news report]
*[https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/ Spotlight on Abuse] - Press cuttings.
*O'Carroll, Thomas. ''[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/ Paedophilia: the radical case]'', London. Peter Owen (October, 1980).
*[[Geoffrey Robertson|Robertson, Geoffrey]]. ''The Justice Game''. Random House UK (1999)
*Wilson, G. and Cox, D. [https://archive.org/details/childlovers/mode/2up The Child Lovers - A Study of Paedophiles in Society The Child-Lovers - a study of paedophilies in society] [http://web.archive.org/web/20041116144121/http://home.wanadoo.nl/host/wilson_83/index.htm (backup)]. London. Peter Owen (1983). ISBN 0-7206-0603-9
*The Times, 17 November 1984, p. 4: "PIE member faces child pornography charge"
*The Times, 15 November 1984, p. 3: "Leaders of paedophile group are sent to jail"
*Beresford, Paul: quoted from discussion of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill, [http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansrd/vo000306/debtext/00306-18.htm#00306-18_spnew1 Hansard, 6 Mar 2000 : Column 812]
*[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/looking-back-to-the-great-british-paedophile-infiltration-campaign-of-the-1970s-9155610.html Christian Wolmar] - In the Independent.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]] [[Category:Censorship]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Organisations]][[Category:Organisations: Sympathetic]][[Category:Organisations: Real-life]][[Category:Organisations: Defunct]][[Category:Organisations: British]][[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: British]][[Category:History & Events: Real Crime]]

Peter Bremner

2026-08-02T20:46:21Z

Prue: /* Later years and Death */

[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to PIE Chairman Steven Adrian Smith (left), for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]
Dr. '''David Peter Bremner''' (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE's) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University. Peter was a multiculturalist long before it was fashionable, having a sexual / erotic preference for black boys...

Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the ''Daily Express'' (1984) described Bremner as a "doctor of philosophy,"<ref>Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (''Daily Express'', 15th November 1984).</ref> he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.

Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O'Carroll as PIE's representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC's ''Newsnight'' TV programme. As recalled by O'Carroll:

<blockquote>''He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.''<ref name="Eulogy">Tom O'Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.</ref></blockquote>

Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal ''Minor Problems''. He served on the journal's editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need...

Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE's prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.<ref name="Smith">Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 "PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,"] in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].</ref> [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984:

<blockquote>''There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O'Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.''

''The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.''<ref name="Smith" /></blockquote>

==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner's Case==

In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine ''Contact'', dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an "indecent article" (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent ("Mr. Oxley"), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.<ref name="Fox">[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.</ref>

On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a "tendency [...] to corrupt" in court. It was accepted in court that "he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it."<ref name="Fox" /> "He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law," but as Bremner ultimately "held the post office box number of P.I.E.," he "was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation."<ref name="Fox" />

He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...

It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine ''Minor Problems'', which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn's Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.<ref>See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).</ref> Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner's life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O'Carroll]] relaying some details.<ref name="htoc">[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O'Carroll's first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed ''A Tale of Two Activists'']</ref>

==Later years and Death==

O'Carroll wrote:

<blockquote>''Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_Iraq_War_protests great march in 2003 against the Iraq war].''<ref name="Eulogy" /></blockquote>

After what O'Carroll characterized as "outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry," Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O'Carroll's words, "complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped."<ref name="Eulogy" /> In later life, however, Peter "beat the demon drink" (O'Carroll). This marked the start of "a personal renaissance," with his final years being "remarkably happy and contented."

<blockquote>''He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.''</blockquote>

He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, "such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end." "He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home," wrote O'Carroll, "and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April."<ref name="Eulogy" /> On his personal blog, O'Carroll wrote,

<blockquote>''I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.''<ref name="htoc" /></blockquote>

Scottish sociologist Dr. [[Richard Yuill]], who interviewed both male survivors of abuse, self-identified boylovers, and men with positive accounts their childhood sexual relationships with adults, cited Bremner is his thesis. When asked about Bremner, Yuill stated that Bremner disagreed with Steve Smith over the notion of "pedagogical eros," or boylove as a mentoring orientation. Yuill added, however, that "Out of all the people I've met who've identified as [[MAP]] [minor-attracted], Peter Bremner was the only person I would actually want to mentor my kids. He was the ''nicest'', ''loveliest'' person you could ever hope to meet... Out of ''all'' the people I've met," he emphasized, "Peter Bremner was number 1... The ''one MAP'' I've met who was without fault."<ref>Yuill, private correspondence with Newgon / Yesmap editorial team. (June, 2026).</ref>

After leaving prison for speech offences, Peter lived a quiet life in a council property in England. He existed on a reduced / low income, supported by the State, but remained generous to his friends with what little he had. He was widely regarded as supportive, gentle, kind and caring by those who knew him.

After being ill for some years with cancer of the liver, Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79.

==References==

[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]

Peter Bremner

2026-08-02T20:44:21Z

Prue:

[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to PIE Chairman Steven Adrian Smith (left), for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]
Dr. '''David Peter Bremner''' (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE's) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University. Peter was a multiculturalist long before it was fashionable, having a sexual / erotic preference for black boys...

Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the ''Daily Express'' (1984) described Bremner as a "doctor of philosophy,"<ref>Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (''Daily Express'', 15th November 1984).</ref> he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.

Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O'Carroll as PIE's representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC's ''Newsnight'' TV programme. As recalled by O'Carroll:

<blockquote>''He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.''<ref name="Eulogy">Tom O'Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.</ref></blockquote>

Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal ''Minor Problems''. He served on the journal's editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need...

Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE's prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.<ref name="Smith">Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 "PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,"] in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].</ref> [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984:

<blockquote>''There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O'Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.''

''The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.''<ref name="Smith" /></blockquote>

==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner's Case==

In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine ''Contact'', dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an "indecent article" (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent ("Mr. Oxley"), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.<ref name="Fox">[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.</ref>

On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a "tendency [...] to corrupt" in court. It was accepted in court that "he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it."<ref name="Fox" /> "He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law," but as Bremner ultimately "held the post office box number of P.I.E.," he "was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation."<ref name="Fox" />

He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...

It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine ''Minor Problems'', which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn's Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.<ref>See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).</ref> Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner's life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O'Carroll]] relaying some details.<ref name="htoc">[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O'Carroll's first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed ''A Tale of Two Activists'']</ref>

==Later years and Death==

O'Carroll wrote:

<blockquote>''Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_Iraq_War_protests great march in 2003 against the Iraq war].''<ref name="Eulogy" /></blockquote>

After what O'Carroll characterized as "outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry," Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O'Carroll's words, "complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped."<ref name="Eulogy" /> In later life, however, Peter "beat the demon drink" (O'Carroll). This marked the start of "a personal renaissance," with his final years being "remarkably happy and contented."

<blockquote>''He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.''</blockquote>

He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, "such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end." "He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home," wrote O'Carroll, "and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April."<ref name="Eulogy" /> On his personal blog, O'Carroll wrote,

<blockquote>''I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.''<ref name="htoc" /></blockquote>

Scottish sociologist Dr. [[Richard Yuill]], who interviewed both male survivors of abuse, self-identified boylovers, and men with positive accounts their childhood sexual relationships with adults, cited Bremner is his thesis. When asked about Bremner, Yuill stated that Bremner disagreed with Steve Smith over the notion of "pedagogical eros," or boylove as a mentoring orientation. Yuill added, however, that "Out of all the people I've met who've identified as [[MAP]] [minor-attracted], Peter Bremner was the only person I would actually want to mentor my kids. He was the ''nicest'', ''loveliest'' person you could ever hope to meet... Out of ''all'' the people I've met," he emphasized, "Peter Bremner was number 1..."<ref>Yuill, private correspondence with Newgon / Yesmap editorial team. (June, 2026).</ref>

After leaving prison for speech offences, Peter lived a quiet life in a council property in England. He existed on a reduced / low income, supported by the State, but remained generous to his friends with what little he had. He was widely regarded as supportive, gentle, kind and caring by those who knew him.

After being ill for some years with cancer of the liver, Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79.

==References==

[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]

Peter Bremner

2026-08-02T20:36:31Z

Prue: /* Later years and Death */

[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to PIE Chairman Steven Adrian Smith (left), for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]
Dr. '''David Peter Bremner''' (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE's) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University.

Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the ''Daily Express'' (1984) described Bremner as a "doctor of philosophy,"<ref>Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (''Daily Express'', 15th November 1984).</ref> he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.

Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O'Carroll as PIE's representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC's ''Newsnight'' TV programme. As recalled by O'Carroll:

<blockquote>''He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.''<ref name="Eulogy">Tom O'Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.</ref></blockquote>

Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal ''Minor Problems''. He served on the journal's editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need...

Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE's prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.<ref name="Smith">Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 "PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,"] in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].</ref> [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984:

<blockquote>''There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O'Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.''

''The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.''<ref name="Smith" /></blockquote>

==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner's Case==

In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine ''Contact'', dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an "indecent article" (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent ("Mr. Oxley"), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.<ref name="Fox">[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.</ref>

On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a "tendency [...] to corrupt" in court. It was accepted in court that "he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it."<ref name="Fox" /> "He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law," but as Bremner ultimately "held the post office box number of P.I.E.," he "was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation."<ref name="Fox" />

He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...

It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine ''Minor Problems'', which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn's Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.<ref>See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).</ref> Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner's life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O'Carroll]] relaying some details.<ref name="htoc">[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O'Carroll's first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed ''A Tale of Two Activists'']</ref>

==Later years and Death==

O'Carroll wrote:

<blockquote>''Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the great march in 2003 against the Iraq war.''<ref name="Eulogy" /></blockquote>

After what O'Carroll characterized as "outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry," Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O'Carroll's words, "complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped."<ref name="Eulogy" /> In later life, however, Peter "beat the demon drink" (O'Carroll). This marked the start of "a personal renaissance," with his final years being "remarkably happy and contented."

<blockquote>''He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.''</blockquote>

He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, "such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end." "He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home," wrote O'Carroll, "and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April."<ref name="Eulogy" /> On his personal blog, O'Carroll wrote,

<blockquote>''I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.''<ref name="htoc" /></blockquote>

Scottish sociologist Dr. [[Richard Yuill]], who interviewed both male survivors of abuse, self-identified boylovers, and men with positive accounts their childhood sexual relationships with adults, cited Bremner is his thesis. When asked about Bremner, Yuill stated that Bremner disagreed with Steve Smith over the notion of "pedagogical eros," or boylove as a mentoring orientation. Yuill added, however, that "Out of all the people I've met who've identified as [[MAP]] [minor-attracted], Peter Bremner was the only person I would actually want to mentor my kids. He was the ''nicest'', ''loveliest'' person you could ever hope to meet... Out of ''all'' the people I've met," he emphasized, "Peter Bremner was number 1..."<ref>Yuill, private correspondence with Newgon / Yesmap editorial team. (June, 2026).</ref>

After leaving prison for speech offences, Peter lived a quiet life in a council property in England. He existed on a reduced / low income, supported by the State, but remained generous to his friends with what little he had. He was widely regarded as supportive, gentle, kind and caring by those who knew him.

After being ill for some years with cancer of the liver, Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79.

==References==

[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]

Peter Bremner

2026-08-02T20:30:52Z

Prue: /* Later years and Death */

[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to PIE Chairman Steven Adrian Smith (left), for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]
Dr. '''David Peter Bremner''' (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE's) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University.

Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the ''Daily Express'' (1984) described Bremner as a "doctor of philosophy,"<ref>Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (''Daily Express'', 15th November 1984).</ref> he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.

Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O'Carroll as PIE's representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC's ''Newsnight'' TV programme. As recalled by O'Carroll:

<blockquote>''He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.''<ref name="Eulogy">Tom O'Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.</ref></blockquote>

Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal ''Minor Problems''. He served on the journal's editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need...

Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE's prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.<ref name="Smith">Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 "PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,"] in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].</ref> [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984:

<blockquote>''There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O'Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.''

''The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.''<ref name="Smith" /></blockquote>

==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner's Case==

In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine ''Contact'', dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an "indecent article" (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent ("Mr. Oxley"), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.<ref name="Fox">[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.</ref>

On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a "tendency [...] to corrupt" in court. It was accepted in court that "he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it."<ref name="Fox" /> "He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law," but as Bremner ultimately "held the post office box number of P.I.E.," he "was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation."<ref name="Fox" />

He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...

It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine ''Minor Problems'', which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn's Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.<ref>See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).</ref> Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner's life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O'Carroll]] relaying some details.<ref name="htoc">[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O'Carroll's first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed ''A Tale of Two Activists'']</ref>

==Later years and Death==

O'Carroll wrote:

<blockquote>''Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the great march in 2003 against the Iraq war.''<ref name="Eulogy" /></blockquote>

After what O'Carroll characterized as "outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry," Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O'Carroll's words, "complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped."<ref name="Eulogy" /> In later life, however, Peter "beat the demon drink" (O'Carroll). This marked the start of "a personal renaissance," with his final years being "remarkably happy and contented."

<blockquote>''He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.''</blockquote>

He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, "such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end." "He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home," wrote O'Carroll, "and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April."<ref name="Eulogy" /> On his personal blog, O'Carroll wrote,

<blockquote>''I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.''<ref name="htoc" /></blockquote>

Scottish sociologist Dr. [[Richard Yuill]], who interviewed both male survivors of abuse, self-identified boylovers, and men with positive accounts their childhood sexual relationships with adults, cited Bremner is his thesis. When asked about Bremner, Yuill stated that Bremner disagreed with Steve Smith over the notion of "pedagogical eros," or boylove as a mentoring orientation. Yuill added, however, that "Out of all the people I've met who've identified as [[MAP]] [minor-attracted], Peter Bremner was the only person I would actually want to mentor my kids. He was the ''nicest'', ''loveliest'' person you could ever hope to meet... Out of ''all'' the people I've met," he emphasized, "Peter Bremner was number 1..."<ref>Yuill, private correspondence with Newgon / Yesmap editorial team. (June, 2026).</ref>

Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79, after being ill for some years with cancer of the liver.

==References==

[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]

Richard Yuill

2026-08-02T20:17:34Z

Prue:

{{Template:Ac}}<div style="margin-right: 25px; float: left; width: 250px">__TOC__</div>'''Dr Richard Yuill''' is a Scottish historian and social researcher known for his [[Queer Theory]] work on [[Michel Foucault|Foucault]] and [[Minor-adult sex|Intergenerational Sex]]ualities. He was awarded his PhD in Sociology from Glasgow University in December 2004, the research he conducted being the subject of a public controversy.

Yuill is not presently publishing as an academic.

==PhD thesis==

Due to Yuill's legal agreement with the University of Glasgow, his highly controversial thesis was not published until December 2009 (it is now available at the University of Glasgow Library). For this work, he gained high distinction from examiners and colleagues alike, but was nevertheless defamed in the reactionary media.

===Sexual politics===

Yuill's thesis tackles the range of contested positions on man-boy love from a sociological perspective. He applies both materialist and Foucauldian frameworks on late modern sexualities to the related subjects of childhood, adolescence and adult sexual attraction to children and young people. Yuill critiques both mainstream gay and "radical" feminist analyses on intergenerational sexualities for their reductionist and simplistic adoption of problematic and often criticized assumptions on power, subjectivity and outcomes in such relationships, all characteristic of "[[Child Sexual Abuse]]" (CSA) theory. His approach provides a number of profound policy and theoretical insghts on child, youth, and intergenerational sexual rights, coupled with a thoroughly comprehensive analysis of the likely direction future transformations towards wider forms of sexual citizenship and child empowerment will take.

===Controversy===

Throughout the five years from 2000 to 2005, he faced two lengthy University Senate investigations, thefts of material from his office, a series of hysterical attacks from the [[Daily Mail]], Guardian, News of the World, and the freelance journalist [[Marcello Mega]]. The Scottish Mail on Sunday and the Scottish edition of the News of the World tabloid published articles slating him. Yuill and Glasgow University decided to place the work on a 5-year access ban. A series of ad hominem political attacks and sensationalist media reporting by the Times Higher Education Supplement subsequently followed, with Liz Kelly, Chris Harrison, and Rachel O'Connell co-opting to provide negative and distorted commentaries on the PhD, despite having not even read it.<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/bg_2004/yuill_controversy.htm Controversy surrounds university thesis on paedophilia]</ref><ref>[https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/fury-over-phd-for-child-sex-research/192788.article Fury over PhD for child-sex research]</ref>

Radical Christian websites turned up the heat by describing Yuill as a "moral cretin".

====[[Marcello Mega]]====

In 2004, Yuill was attacked and libelled following an undercover investigation carried out by [[Ireen van Engelen]]. Van Engelen passed information on to the Scottish Daily Mail journalist Marcello Mega. Despite eventually failing to uncover highly sensitive information, Mega has since embarked on a campaign to discredit Yuill by referring to the fact that he once joined and visited [[Ipce]] for research purposes, as encouraged by said organisation. Mega also alleges that Yuill described himself as a "boylover" to Ipce members, a charge that if correct was likely to have been part of a standard naturalisation technique used by social researchers. The integrity of this accusation and what Mega infers from it is further called into question by his more recent comment that Yuill was discharged from teaching for "inappropriate sexual ‘horseplay’ with boys in his care"<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20081122013959/http://www.holyrood.com/content/view/2544/10524/ Holyrood.com archive]</ref>. This defamatory accusation had previously led to a successful PCC report.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20120403130117/http://www.pcc.org.uk/news/index.html?article=MzkxOA== Press Complaints Commission archive]</ref>

====Later comments by David Pilgrim (2018) and Bethany Rose Lamont (2021)====

In 2018, a UK based academic named David Pilgrim, whose work attempts to apply critical realist<ref>[https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/ces/research/current/socialtheory/maps/criticalrealism/ Critical Realism]</ref> theory to intergenerational relations ("CSA" in his terms), critcized Yuill for what he saw as "libertarian pleading" and allyship with "moral panic theory" on Yuill's part. Yuill wrote a response to this, which remains unpublished and is instead [[Media:Richard_Yuill_Letter_October_2020.pdf|made available here]].

This not the first time Pilgrim has faced criticism for his comments against researchers he opposes. The scholars [[Mark Smith]], Vivien E. Cree, and Gary Clapton, who have applied moral panic theory to analyze UK child protection discourse in articles such as ''Moral panics and social work: Towards a sceptical view of UK child protection'' (2012)<ref>[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0261018312457860 Moral panics and social work: Towards a sceptical view of UK child protection ]</ref>, and the edited volume ''Revisiting Moral Panics'' (2015)<ref>[https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctt1t88xwr Revisiting Moral Panics]</ref>, wrote that Pilgrim had decided "to use our book, ''Revisiting moral panics'' (Cree et al, 2015), to construct a straw man, which needs to be knocked down to preserve his own particular view of child sexual abuse."<ref>[https://bristoluniversitypressdigital.com/view/journals/crsw/5/2/article-p223.xml Cree et al p223]</ref> Pilgrim responded, making "a brief concession [...] to a couple of points".<ref>[https://bristoluniversitypressdigital.com/view/journals/crsw/5/3/article-p351.xml Cree et al p351]</ref> Later, in October 2020, Dr. Yuill's response to Pilgrim also criticized him for his use of "straw men arguments," and further, sees Pilgrim's tone and arguments as "a disservice to academic discourse and professional conduct." Yuill wrote:

<blockquote>''The issue of protecting children and young people from sexual abuse is certainly one that academics and policy makers should take seriously. There is no argument there and I actually carried out interviews with several male survivors of abuse. The fact that I conducted research which also looked at marginalised positions (boylovers and positive accounts from young people of their sexual relationships with adults) should be the bread and butter of any serious ethnographic researcher.''<ref>[[Media:Richard_Yuill_Letter_October_2020.pdf|Richard Yuill's 2020 Letter]]</ref></blockquote>

In 2021, Bethany Rose Lamont, a "writer and researcher in trauma and visual culture", and founder of ''Doll Hospital'' Journal, made inaccurate and unsubstantiated comments about Yuill's research. In an article written for what appears to be a third-tier journal, ''The Iowa Journal of Cultural Studies'', she falsely claimed that Yuill gave immunity to sex offenders who admitted to offenses that had not come to the attention of authorities.<ref>[https://pubs.lib.uiowa.edu/ijcs/article/29816/galley/138161/view/ Lamont, B., (2021) “Can We Approach the Subject of Child Sexual Abuse Ethically in Academia? Towards a Queer Ethics of CSA Analysis”, Iowa Journal of Cultural Studies 21(1), p.49-62.]</ref>

====Testimony====

From ''THE''.

<blockquote>''When I began my PhD at Glasgow University in 1999, I appreciated that the "reality" of researching male age-discrepant/intergenerational sexualities and relationships would likely prove a hotly contested topic. But I did not anticipate that my mother and I would be subjected to offensive phone-calls; two lengthy Senate investigations; having sensitive material stolen from my office and passed on to a journalist; explaining my research to officers from the Serious Crime Squad; the News of the World taking a photo of me inside our house; and, finally, a series of ill-informed political attacks.''</blockquote>

==Other major works==

Despite [[censorship]] of his work from Sociological Research Online, Sexualities, and Sociological Review, Yuill has published two Encyclopedia articles. The first, co-authored with his PhD supervisor [[David T. Evans]], was the entry for [[pedophilia]] in “The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Sociology” in 2007.<ref>[https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1002/9781405165518.wbeosp013 Pedophilia, by Richard Yuill and David T. Evans]. Sci-hub link.</ref> The second was an entry for [[pederasty]] in Greenwood’s [[Media:Yuill on Pederasty (2008 book chapter).pdf|Love, Courtship and Sexuality through history, Volume 6]], in 2008. He has also published a critical commentary of [[Diederik Janssen]]'s "Re-Queering queer youth development: A Post-Developmental Approach to Childhood and Pedagogy" entitled "Re-scheduling child sexual trajectories” in the Journal of LGBT Youth, 2008, 5(3).<ref>[https://sci-hub.st/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19361650802162409 Re-scheduling child sexual trajectories” in the Journal of LGBT Youth, 2008, 5(3)]. Sci-hub link.</ref> Written with [[Dean Durber]], "‘Querying’ the Limits of Queering Boys Through the Contested Discourses on Sexuality" was published in ''Sexuality & Culture''.<ref>[https://sci-hub.st/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-008-9034-x ‘Querying’ the Limits of Queering Boys Through the Contested Discourses on Sexuality (2008)]. Sci-hub link.</ref>

Yuill has collaborated with [[Bruce Rind]], publishing a 2012 paper on the topic of [[Hebephilia]], within its historical and anthropological context. This followed academic controversy over the idea of Hebephilia as a form of pathology - something Yuill and Rind argue is ahistorical.

Yuill himself details his experience of facing researcher stigma and media attack in his 2010 scholarly article ''Interrogating the Essential: Moral Baselines on Adult-Child Sex''.<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/interrogating-essential-moral-baselines-adult-child-sex Interrogating the Essential: Moral Baselines on Adult-Child Sex]</ref> He documents attacks on himself and past researchers most fully in a contribution to [[Censoring Sex Research]] (2013), with a book chapter titled ''Intergenerational Sexualities: A Case Study on the Colonization of Late Modern Sexual Subjects and Researcher Agendas''.<ref>[https://library.lol/main/20CD5808BA3977780E914855954E456F libgen: Censoring Sex Research]</ref> (See also his archived article ''A Critical Analysis of Subjectivist-Based Theorising and Research on Male Intergenerational Sexualities''<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20211206155119/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=A_Critical_Analysis_of_Subjectivist-Based_Theorising_and_Research_on_Male_Intergenerational_Sexualities A Critical Analysis of Subjectivist-Based Theorising and Research on Male Intergenerational Sexualities] by Richard Yuill (archived from williamapercy.com) </ref> which in part duplicate the book chapter).

The historian [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] summarizes Yuill's story in her award-winning 2020 book ''Unspeakable: A Life Beyond Sexual Morality'', examining once famous and influential pederast [[Norman Douglas]]. Cleves sees Yuill's case as an example of the potential risks of writing and publishing on intergenerational relations.

==See also==
<div style="column-count:2;-moz-column-count:2;-webkit-column-count:2">
*[[Allyn Walker]]
*[[Stephen Kershnar]]
*[[Thomas Hubbard]]
*[[Karl Andersson]]
*[[Chris Brand]]
*[[Leonardo Arce Vidal]]
*[[Beert Verstraete]]
</div>

==References==

{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200928121216/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Richard%20Yuill Richard Yuill] - William Percy
*[https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/dec/02/research.children The Guardian] - Wrap-up of the controversy.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20210613210913/http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Abstract Yuill PhD Abstract]
*[http://theses.gla.ac.uk/2795/1/2004YuillPhdv1.pdf Full Thesis at the UoG]
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200814105430/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bibliography Yuill PhD Biblio]
*[http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=192834&sectioncode=26 Answering back] - Letter from Yuill to THE, see above for testimony if paywall active.
*[https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/bg_2004/Yuill_reactions.htm Yuill reactions] - Ipce summarizes some of the media fallout.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20200812234251/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Review Book Review] of Michael Matthew Kaylor's ''Secreted Desires—The Major [[Uranian Poetry|Uranians]]: Hopkins, Pater and Wilde''

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category: Queer Theory]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:Sociological Theory]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Youth]][[Category:Research]][[Category:Research on "Child Molesters"]][[Category:Research into effects on Children]][[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: British]][[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 2000s]]

Template:Ac

2026-07-12T12:25:44Z

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! style="padding-bottom: 1em;" | Part of [[Main Page|NewgonWiki]]'s series on Academia
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! Research topics  
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[[Research|NewgonWiki Research Project]] 
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{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="background: inherit; width:100%;"
! Academics (present)  
|-
|
[[Steven Angelides|Angelides]], [[Helmut Graupner|Graupner]], [[Philip Tromovitch|Tromovitch]], [[Allyn Walker|Walker]] 
[[Charles Moser|Moser]], [[Karl Andersson|Andersson]], [[Judith Butler|Butler]], [[Jacob Breslow|Breslow]], [[Gayle Rubin|Rubin]] 
[[Stephen Kershnar|Kershnar]], [[Peter Singer|Singer]], [[Bruce Rind|Rind]], [[Diederik Janssen|Janssen]], [[Mark Smith|Smith]] 
[[Thomas Hubbard|Hubbard]], [[Hoko Horii|Horii]], [[Gilbert Herdt|Herdt]], [[Lee Edelman|Edelman]], [[Elizabeth Loftus|Loftus]] 
[[Rachel Hope Cleves|Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett|Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal|Arce Vidal]], [[Bill Thompson|Thompson]] 
[[Slavoj Žižek|Žižek]], [[Theo Sandfort|Sandfort]], [[Kieran McCartan|McCartan]], [[Edmund White|White]] 
[[Simon Goldhill|Goldhill]], [[Juliette Rennes|Rennes]], [[Kerry Robinson|Robinson]], [[Kathryn Bond Stockton|Stockton]] 
[[Pierre Verdrager|Verdrager]], [[Michael Seto|Seto]] 
<hr>
[[Valerie Sinason|Sinason]], [[Gene Abel|Abel]], [[Alvin Malesky|Malesky]], [[David Finkelhor|Finkelhor]] 
|}

{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="background: inherit; width:100%;"
! Academics (inactive)  
|-
|
[[Terry Leahy|Leahy]], [[Gary Dowsett|Dowsett]], [[Pat Sikes|Sikes]], [[Patrick Califia|Califia]], [[Frans Gieles|Gieles]] 
[[Richard Yuill|Yuill]], [[James Kincaid|Kincaid]], [[Camille Paglia|Paglia]], [[Thore Langfeldt|Langfeldt]] 
[[LeRoy G. Schultz|Schultz]], [[Walter L. Williams|Williams]], [[Rudiger Lautmann|Lautmann]] 
[[Marjan Sax|Sax]], [[Warren Farrell|Farrell]], [[Joel Best|Best]], [[Philip Jenkins|Jenkins]] 
[[Chin-Keung Li|C. K. Li]], [[Paul Okami|Okami]], [[Allie C. Kilpatrick|Kilpatrick]], [[Martin Dannecker|Dannecker]] 
[[Dean Durber|Durber]], [[Gunter Schmidt|Schmidt]], [[Stevi Jackson|Jackson]], [[Carolyn Cocca|Cocca]]
 
<hr>
[[Mary de Young|De Young]], [[Stephanie Dallam|Dallam]] 
|}

{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="background: inherit; width:100%;"
! Academics (historical)  
|-
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[[Michel Foucault|Foucault]], [[Alfred Kinsey|Kinsey]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg|Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Hubert Kennedy|Kennedy]], [[William Percy|Percy]] 
[[David Sonenschein|Sonenschein]], [[Beatrice Faust|Faust]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster|Foster]], [[Donald Mader|Mader]] 
[[Gert Hekma|Hekma]], [[Floyd Martinson|Martinson]], [[Vern Bullough|Bullough]], [[Frits Bernard|Bernard]] 
[[Warren Johansson|Johansson]], [[Guy Hocquenghem|Hocquenghem]], [[John P. De Cecco|De Cecco]] 
[[René Schérer|Schérer]], [[Helmut Kentler|Kentler]], [[Volkmar Sigusch|Sigusch]], [[Michael C. Baurmann|Baurmann]] 
[[Sir Richard Burton|Burton]], [[Leonard Davis|Davis]], [[Katharina Rutschky|Rutschky]], [[Preben Hertoft|Hertoft]], [[Eberhard Schorsch|Schorsch]] 
[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc|Ogrinc]], [[Ken Plummer|Plummer]], [[Jeffrey Weeks|Weeks]] 
[[John Money|Money]], [[Tony Duvert|Duvert]], [[Michael Ingram|Ingram]], [[Richard Green|Green]], [[Harris Mirkin|Mirkin]] 
[[William Simon|Simon]], [[John Gagnon|Gagnon]], [[Donald West|West]], [[Tom Reeves|Reeves]], [[Charles Shively|Shively]] 
[[David T. Evans|Evans]], [[John Holt|Holt]], [[Clarence Tripp|Tripp]], [[Paul D. Hardman|Hardman]], [[Wilhelm Reich|Reich]] 
[[Herman Musaph|Musaph]], [[Thomas Szasz|Szasz]], [[Lars Ullerstam|Ullerstam]], [[Joan Nestle|Nestle]] 
<hr>
[[Judianne Densen-Gerber|Densen-Gerber]], [[Judith Reisman|Reisman]], [[Charles Whitfield|Whitfield]], [[Paul Fink|Fink]] 
|}

{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="background: inherit; width:100%;"
! Related topics  
|-
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[[Queer Theory]], [[Feminism]], [[Consent]] 
[[Minor-adult sex]], [[Child Sexual Abuse|CSA]], [[Paraphilia]] 
[[Sexceptionalism]], [[Sexualization]] 
[[Heteronormativity]], [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|Trans youth]] 
[[Hebephilia]], [[Pedophilia]], [[Teleiophilia]] 
[[Censorship]], [[Chris Brand]], [[Moral panic]] 
[[Preventionism]], [[Minor Attracted Person]] 
[[Masturbation]], [[Inner child]], [[Child Sexual Behaviour Inventory|CSBI]] 
[[IICSA]], [[Child Pornography|CSAM]], [[Covert incest]] 
[[Pedophilia themed OCD|POCD]], [[Teen Dating Violence]] 
[[Repressed memory]], [[Anal wink]] 
[[Kent State Study]], [[Rind et al]], [[CSA Accommodation Syndrome|CSAAS]] 
[[COPINE Scale]], [[Cognitive distortion (pseudoscience)|Cognitive distortion]] 
[[Adolescence]], [[Abel screening]] 
[[Actuarial testing]], [[Penile Plethysmography|Plethysmography]] 
[[Erwin Schrodinger]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]] 
[[David Riegel]], [[Jordan Peterson]] 
[[Wikipedia censorship of MAP related topics|Wikipedia]], [[Sexual rites of passage|Rites of passage]] 
[[Medicalism]], [[Evolving capacity]] 
[[Nocebogenic harm]], [[Moral Recruitment]] 
[[Intrinsic harm]] 
|}

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[[Journal of Homosexuality|JoH]], [[Archives of Sexual Behavior|ASB]], [[Paidika]], [[Journal of Controversial Ideas|JCI]], [[Fund for Scientific Research of Sexuality|FSRS]] 
[[B4U-ACT]], [[Percy Foundation|PF]], [[Ipce]], [[AASECT]] 
<hr>
[[NARTH]], [[The Leadership Council|TLC]] 
[[Office of Justice Programs|OJP]], [[NSPCC]], [[American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children|ASPAC]] 
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Herman Musaph

2026-07-12T12:24:52Z

Prue:

{{Template:Ac}}Prof. '''Herman Musaph''' (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist.

In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With [[John Money]], he co-authored the influential ''Handbook of Sexology'' (1977) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and sexual development, linking touch deprivation to later abnormal behaviors. This book was a 1,402-page compendium which synthesized global research on human sexuality, spanning biology, psychosexual development, and disorders; it was later translated into multiple languages and praised as a foundational collection for the field.

In the same year, Musaph founded the [[NVSH|Dutch Society for Sexual Reform]] (NVSH), which was notably sympathetic to non-normative sexual identities and practices, including [[MAP]]s. His efforts culminated in the establishment of the Dr. Herman Musaph Prize for Medical Sexology in 1991, awarded by Dutch medical bodies to recognize advances in the discipline. Musaph's approach prioritized causal links between psychological trauma and sexual expression, critiquing overly moralistic frameworks in favor of observable physiological and relational dynamics.

Musaph made supportive statements about [[pedophilia]] and [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|non-coercive age-gap sex]] in various publications and outlets.<ref>See [https://brongersma.info/Category:Herman_Musaph "Herman Musaph" in the Brongersma online archive]. [Results will require translation for non-Dutch speakers]. If you can read Dutch, see, for example, Artikel [https://brongersma.info/Klinische_lessen_-_Pedofilie 'Klinische lessen - Pedofilie'] door Prof. Dr. H. Musaph; Nederlands Tijdschrift voor Geneeskunde 124, nr. 51; 1980.</ref> [[Theo Sandfort]] cited Musaph in some of his past writings on [[pedophilia]], and it is likely that Musaph at one point had considerable impact and influence on Dutch academic and intellectual opinion, having been a senior, well-respected and well-published figure by the time he made non-condemnatory statements about pedophilia.

He was the winner of the Magnus Hirschfeld Medal in 1990, and the Herman Musaph Foundation for Psychodermatology is named in his honor. Musaph fell ill during a meeting of the European Society in Paris in late 1992. He died on 18 November 1992 in Amsterdam, aged 77, from heart failure.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Research]][[Category:Research on Minor Attraction]][[Category:Research on "Child Molesters"]][[Category:Research into effects on Children]][[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Dutch]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Popular Authors]]

Herman Musaph

2026-07-12T12:24:33Z

Prue:

Prof. '''Herman Musaph''' (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist.

In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With [[John Money]], he co-authored the influential ''Handbook of Sexology'' (1977) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and sexual development, linking touch deprivation to later abnormal behaviors. This book was a 1,402-page compendium which synthesized global research on human sexuality, spanning biology, psychosexual development, and disorders; it was later translated into multiple languages and praised as a foundational collection for the field.

In the same year, Musaph founded the [[NVSH|Dutch Society for Sexual Reform]] (NVSH), which was notably sympathetic to non-normative sexual identities and practices, including [[MAP]]s. His efforts culminated in the establishment of the Dr. Herman Musaph Prize for Medical Sexology in 1991, awarded by Dutch medical bodies to recognize advances in the discipline. Musaph's approach prioritized causal links between psychological trauma and sexual expression, critiquing overly moralistic frameworks in favor of observable physiological and relational dynamics.

Musaph made supportive statements about [[pedophilia]] and [[Accounts_and_Testimonies|non-coercive age-gap sex]] in various publications and outlets.<ref>See [https://brongersma.info/Category:Herman_Musaph "Herman Musaph" in the Brongersma online archive]. [Results will require translation for non-Dutch speakers]. If you can read Dutch, see, for example, Artikel [https://brongersma.info/Klinische_lessen_-_Pedofilie 'Klinische lessen - Pedofilie'] door Prof. Dr. H. Musaph; Nederlands Tijdschrift voor Geneeskunde 124, nr. 51; 1980.</ref> [[Theo Sandfort]] cited Musaph in some of his past writings on [[pedophilia]], and it is likely that Musaph at one point had considerable impact and influence on Dutch academic and intellectual opinion, having been a senior, well-respected and well-published figure by the time he made non-condemnatory statements about pedophilia.

He was the winner of the Magnus Hirschfeld Medal in 1990, and the Herman Musaph Foundation for Psychodermatology is named in his honor. Musaph fell ill during a meeting of the European Society in Paris in late 1992. He died on 18 November 1992 in Amsterdam, aged 77, from heart failure.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Research]][[Category:Research on Minor Attraction]][[Category:Research on "Child Molesters"]][[Category:Research into effects on Children]][[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]][[Category:People]][[Category:People: Dutch]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:People: Sympathetic Activists]][[Category:People: Popular Authors]]

Herman Musaph

2026-07-12T12:13:55Z

Prue: Created page with "Prof. '''Herman Musaph''' (Dutch: Heijman Musaph) (7 January 1915 – 18 November 1992) was a Dutch Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist, dermatologist and sexologist. In 1977, Musaph became Professor of Medicine at the University of Utrecht. With John Money, he co-authored the influential ''Handbook of Sexology'' (1977, later translated into multiple languages) which emphasized the critical role of early mother-child skin contact in fostering healthy psychological and..."

Joan Nestle

2026-07-07T15:09:03Z

Prue:

{{Template:Ac}}__NOTOC__[[wikipedia:Joan_Nestle|'''Joan Nestle''']] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by [[Feminism|feminist]] civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [[wikipedia:Butch_and_femme|Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture]] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [[wikipedia:Feminist_sex_wars|feminist sex wars]] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988.<ref>Nestle, [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987). [Annas Archive PDF link].</ref> Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it.'' [...]

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands.'' [...]

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. ''[...]'' My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. ''[...]'' You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''<ref>All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Various editions are available.</ref>
</blockquote>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina's husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:
<blockquote>
''I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pornography [[Feminism|feminism]]. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the [[wikipedia:1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality|famous Barnard Conference of 1982]] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Template:Ac

2026-07-07T15:08:33Z

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[[Research|NewgonWiki Research Project]] 
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{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="background: inherit; width:100%;"
! Academics (present)  
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[[Steven Angelides|Angelides]], [[Helmut Graupner|Graupner]], [[Philip Tromovitch|Tromovitch]], [[Allyn Walker|Walker]] 
[[Charles Moser|Moser]], [[Karl Andersson|Andersson]], [[Judith Butler|Butler]], [[Jacob Breslow|Breslow]], [[Gayle Rubin|Rubin]] 
[[Stephen Kershnar|Kershnar]], [[Peter Singer|Singer]], [[Bruce Rind|Rind]], [[Diederik Janssen|Janssen]], [[Mark Smith|Smith]] 
[[Thomas Hubbard|Hubbard]], [[Hoko Horii|Horii]], [[Gilbert Herdt|Herdt]], [[Lee Edelman|Edelman]], [[Elizabeth Loftus|Loftus]] 
[[Rachel Hope Cleves|Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett|Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal|Arce Vidal]], [[Bill Thompson|Thompson]] 
[[Slavoj Žižek|Žižek]], [[Theo Sandfort|Sandfort]], [[Kieran McCartan|McCartan]], [[Edmund White|White]] 
[[Simon Goldhill|Goldhill]], [[Juliette Rennes|Rennes]], [[Kerry Robinson|Robinson]], [[Kathryn Bond Stockton|Stockton]] 
[[Pierre Verdrager|Verdrager]], [[Michael Seto|Seto]] 
<hr>
[[Valerie Sinason|Sinason]], [[Gene Abel|Abel]], [[Alvin Malesky|Malesky]], [[David Finkelhor|Finkelhor]] 
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! Academics (inactive)  
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[[Terry Leahy|Leahy]], [[Gary Dowsett|Dowsett]], [[Pat Sikes|Sikes]], [[Patrick Califia|Califia]], [[Frans Gieles|Gieles]] 
[[Richard Yuill|Yuill]], [[James Kincaid|Kincaid]], [[Camille Paglia|Paglia]], [[Thore Langfeldt|Langfeldt]] 
[[LeRoy G. Schultz|Schultz]], [[Walter L. Williams|Williams]], [[Rudiger Lautmann|Lautmann]] 
[[Marjan Sax|Sax]], [[Warren Farrell|Farrell]], [[Joel Best|Best]], [[Philip Jenkins|Jenkins]] 
[[Chin-Keung Li|C. K. Li]], [[Paul Okami|Okami]], [[Allie C. Kilpatrick|Kilpatrick]], [[Martin Dannecker|Dannecker]] 
[[Dean Durber|Durber]], [[Gunter Schmidt|Schmidt]], [[Stevi Jackson|Jackson]], [[Carolyn Cocca|Cocca]]
 
<hr>
[[Mary de Young|De Young]], [[Stephanie Dallam|Dallam]] 
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[[Michel Foucault|Foucault]], [[Alfred Kinsey|Kinsey]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg|Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Hubert Kennedy|Kennedy]], [[William Percy|Percy]] 
[[David Sonenschein|Sonenschein]], [[Beatrice Faust|Faust]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster|Foster]], [[Donald Mader|Mader]] 
[[Gert Hekma|Hekma]], [[Floyd Martinson|Martinson]], [[Vern Bullough|Bullough]], [[Frits Bernard|Bernard]] 
[[Warren Johansson|Johansson]], [[Guy Hocquenghem|Hocquenghem]], [[John P. De Cecco|De Cecco]] 
[[René Schérer|Schérer]], [[Helmut Kentler|Kentler]], [[Volkmar Sigusch|Sigusch]], [[Michael C. Baurmann|Baurmann]] 
[[Sir Richard Burton|Burton]], [[Leonard Davis|Davis]], [[Katharina Rutschky|Rutschky]], [[Preben Hertoft|Hertoft]], [[Eberhard Schorsch|Schorsch]] 
[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc|Ogrinc]], [[Ken Plummer|Plummer]], [[Jeffrey Weeks|Weeks]] 
[[John Money|Money]], [[Tony Duvert|Duvert]], [[Michael Ingram|Ingram]], [[Richard Green|Green]], [[Harris Mirkin|Mirkin]] 
[[William Simon|Simon]], [[John Gagnon|Gagnon]], [[Donald West|West]], [[Tom Reeves|Reeves]], [[Charles Shively|Shively]] 
[[David T. Evans|Evans]], [[John Holt|Holt]], [[Clarence Tripp|Tripp]], [[Paul D. Hardman|Hardman]], [[Wilhelm Reich|Reich]] 
[[Thomas Szasz|Szasz]], [[Lars Ullerstam|Ullerstam]], [[Joan Nestle|Nestle]] 
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[[Judianne Densen-Gerber|Densen-Gerber]], [[Judith Reisman|Reisman]], [[Charles Whitfield|Whitfield]], [[Paul Fink|Fink]] 
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[[Queer Theory]], [[Feminism]], [[Consent]] 
[[Minor-adult sex]], [[Child Sexual Abuse|CSA]], [[Paraphilia]] 
[[Sexceptionalism]], [[Sexualization]] 
[[Heteronormativity]], [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|Trans youth]] 
[[Hebephilia]], [[Pedophilia]], [[Teleiophilia]] 
[[Censorship]], [[Chris Brand]], [[Moral panic]] 
[[Preventionism]], [[Minor Attracted Person]] 
[[Masturbation]], [[Inner child]], [[Child Sexual Behaviour Inventory|CSBI]] 
[[IICSA]], [[Child Pornography|CSAM]], [[Covert incest]] 
[[Pedophilia themed OCD|POCD]], [[Teen Dating Violence]] 
[[Repressed memory]], [[Anal wink]] 
[[Kent State Study]], [[Rind et al]], [[CSA Accommodation Syndrome|CSAAS]] 
[[COPINE Scale]], [[Cognitive distortion (pseudoscience)|Cognitive distortion]] 
[[Adolescence]], [[Abel screening]] 
[[Actuarial testing]], [[Penile Plethysmography|Plethysmography]] 
[[Erwin Schrodinger]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]] 
[[David Riegel]], [[Jordan Peterson]] 
[[Wikipedia censorship of MAP related topics|Wikipedia]], [[Sexual rites of passage|Rites of passage]] 
[[Medicalism]], [[Evolving capacity]] 
[[Nocebogenic harm]], [[Moral Recruitment]] 
[[Intrinsic harm]] 
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[[Journal of Homosexuality|JoH]], [[Archives of Sexual Behavior|ASB]], [[Paidika]], [[Journal of Controversial Ideas|JCI]], [[Fund for Scientific Research of Sexuality|FSRS]] 
[[B4U-ACT]], [[Percy Foundation|PF]], [[Ipce]], [[AASECT]] 
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[[NARTH]], [[The Leadership Council|TLC]] 
[[Office of Justice Programs|OJP]], [[NSPCC]], [[American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children|ASPAC]] 
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Testimony: Adult Female with Minor

2026-07-02T20:48:58Z

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{{Template:A&T}}We have divided this page into Lesbian and Boy/Woman experiences, and will later divide it by era.

==Lesbian minor-adult experiences==

*'''[https://fstube.net/w/qrhvdKZZdf8STHUnR9Da89 Video excerpts from the Canal F Channel article show] the story of a 13-year-old girl who had a consensual love relationship with her teacher.'''
*:She initiated the relationship and did not see it as interfering with its pedagogical function. The relationship between the two, however, was forcibly interrupted by a complaint from the teenager's mother and the girlfriend was accused of rape of a vulnerable person, even under strong protests from the alleged victim.
*'''Amy (16, [https://www.brongersma.info/images/Anthology_01.pdf commenting on a relationship with her teacher when aged 12]) in "One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth"''':
*:"I am a sixteen‑year‑old lesbian. I have been a lesbian since I was twelve. I had known my dance teacher for three years before she brought me out. I was very attracted to her when I first saw her, and from then on, I grew to be more and more in love with her. When I was ten, I had a crush on a friend of my older sister, and some time after that another crush on a cousin of mine. But these didnʹt last long. I always wanted to be near my teacher, dance well for her, and have her touch me! Often while falling asleep at night I would think about her holding me in her arms while Iʹd go to sleep or about her kissing me. I didnʹt know anything about lesbians then, so I didnʹt associate my feelings with anything but my love for her. We became lovers the weekend I was asked to give a special dance presentation in another city. My dance instructor chose me and accompanied me there. She was 23. After the performance, we returned to our room. She was elated with my reception, and hugged me and told me how good I was. I felt so good being held by her, being so close to her; secure in the arms of a woman I had admired and loved for three years. Her eyes were so alive, so exciting; her smile so sensuous. When she said, ʺLet me help you take this off,ʺ I could only hope something might happen. I let my arms hang loose as she slipped the leotards over my shoulders, then I cooperated with her so my arms could be freed, leaving the costume hanging at my waist, with my breasts bare. ʺYou are so pretty,ʺ she said, placing her hands on my neck and then running them down my chest and then running them down my chest, over my breasts and then cupping them in her hands. I loved what she was doing, especially when she licked her index finger and began rubbing my left nipple, making it hard. She did the same with the right one, and I held her tightly around the waist. ʺDoes this feel good?ʺ she asked. ʺYes, donʹt stop.ʺ Then she took a nipple in each hand and rolled them between her fingers. At the same time she moved closer to me. From the waist down we were touching; from the waist up, separated enough for her to get her hands on my breasts. Somehow our lips met, tentative at first and then we kissed passionately with her tongue edging its way into my mouth. I began sucking her tongue, and for the first time I felt tingly all over. My next sensation was our deep breathing, then I felt her hands move from my front to my back, and she pressed tighter to me. Then she moved her hands down to my butt, massaging, and pushing my pelvis into hers. When I felt some thrusts of her pelvis against mine, my eyes opened wide. She responded by saying, ʺYou really turn me on...do you like this?ʺ ʺOh, yes.ʺ She said ʺLetʹs take this off,ʺ referring to the costume still covering my bottom. Down it came, and I stepped out of it. She held me at arms length, saying, ʺI want to look at you.ʺ Her hands moved from my neck, to my shoulders, down over my nipples to my waist; one hand on each side. Then she told me I was sexy and moved her right hand down my stomach and lower. I knew what she was going to do, hoping those sensations I had felt before would be even better. They were, as she concentrated on my clitoris with a circular motion, slipping her middle finger between my lips and occasionally into me. ʺI want to make love to you. Letʹs go to bed.ʺ We continued that night, all weekend and for almost three years until I had to move with my family. I became a lesbian and a woman that weekend!"<ref>Note that this case has received commentary in academia by Lauren Jae Gutterman, in Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151.</ref>

*'''[http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/recycle-bin/is-not-okay/t.28768307_526/ Post by "Self-Rolled Poison"] in discussion of pedophilia is not okay in a forum on Gaia Online, June 30, 2007.'''
*:A 13-year-old girl writes about having "a number of perfectly healthy sexual relationships with adults … [including a current] relationship with a sixteen year-old girl who I understand and who understands me on a level unparalleled by what I believe I could reach with anyone my age."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/heidi.htm Interview: Heidi], from ''Paidika'' Vol. 2 No.4, Winter 1992, pp. 27-29.'''
*:A 24-year-old woman looks back on the fling she had with a teacher when she was 13. "By final exam time I couldn't concentrate at all. I was dreaming about her. I saw her everywhere; I couldn't think of anything else. During the math exam I took a compass and scratched the first letter of her name in my hand. It's still there, you can see it when it's cold. I was so in love with this woman! [...] One day when I had gone to the park again with her and her class, we started hugging and kissing. I think she started it but I didn't say no. I had kissed boys, but I was never in love with them. This was totally different. I was in love with her, so it felt much more intense, more exciting, because it was so secretive. [...] Looking back, I think I would have liked to have had sex with her. At that time it was not the most important thing for me. I don't know how much I knew about sex at the age of thirteen. I think I would have been afraid--afraid, that is, of not knowing how to do it or how to do it right. I had read about sex and heard about it on TV. But to actually do it? On the other hand, she was so gorgeous, it would have been wonderful if we could have been close, to feel her without her clothes. She meant everything to me. I really regret that we didn't do it."

*'''[http://www.martijn.org/info/Martijn/martijn03.pdf Anna in Martijn] (PDF, 8 Mb), January 1981, page 18-19, in Dutch.'''
*:A woman talks about her teenage love affair with a music teacher in her school. She courted the teacher innocently for about a year and they developed a close friendship. When the teacher was ill and the girl was comforting her at her home, the teacher initiated some kissing and sexual stroking. The girl enjoyed this and later took to intiating such activity herself, although she did find the teacher's orgasms frightening. The relationship began to attract attention from others at school, which created presure to end it, which they did with some difficulty.

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule] (novelist) from "Teaching Sexuality", ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979.'''
*:"Certainly my own initiation came long before I was legally adult. Though a number of males around my age offered to participate, a woman ten years my senior was "responsible," at my invitation and encouragement. The only fault I find with that part of my sexual education was the limit her guilt and fear put on our pleasure, the heterosexual pressure even she felt required to put on me. What she did "for my own good" caused both of us pain. If I were to improve on that experience now, it would not be to protect children from adult seduction but to make adults easier to seduce, less burdened with fear or guilt, less defended by hypocrisy."

*'''Catherine N.X.'''
*:"Catherine N.X. is a 19 year old girl whose girllove relationship [with her mother] started at age 8 and continues happily to this day" [HFP main page]. She writes a column for the website, called [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-Cat.htm Ask Cat!]. For her view of her relationship, see her answers to the letter from [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-Cat-004.htm Rainer].

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm Beth Kelly (feminist)], quoted in ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case''. Originally published as "On woman/girl love, or lesbians do "do it"", ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979. '''
*:"But what about Beth Kelly, now mature in years, and a radical lesbian feminist, who, as a 'precocious' eight-year-old, developed a relationship with a grown woman? She writes:
*:'The first woman I ever loved sexually was my great-aunt; our feelings for each other were deep, strong, and full. The fact that she was more than fifty years older than I did not affect the bond that grew between us. And, yes, I knew what I was doing - every step of the way - even though I had not, at the time, learned many of the words with which to speak of these things.
*:'Aunt Addie was a dynamic, intelligent, and creative woman - who refused, all her life, to be cowed by convention. In an extended family where women played out "traditional" housewifely roles to the hilt, she stood out, a beacon of independence and strength. She was a nurse in France during the First World War, had travelled, read books, and lived for over twenty years in a monogamous relationship with another woman. Her lover's death pre-dated the start of our sexual relationship by about two years. But we had always been close and seen a great deal of each other. In the summers, which my mother, brother and I always spent at her seashore home, we were together daily. In other seasons, she would drive to visit us wherever we were living, and often stayed for a month or so at a time.
*:'I adored her; that's all there was to it. I had never been taught at home that heterosexual acts or other body functions were dirty or forbidden, and I'd been isolated enough from other children to manage to miss a lot of the usual sexist socialisation learned in play. It never occurred to me that it might be considered "unnatural" or "antisocial" to kiss or touch or hold the person I loved, and I don't think that Addie was terribly concerned by such things either. I do know that I never felt pressured or forced by any sexual aspects of the love I felt for her. I think I can safely say, some twenty years later, that I was never exploited physically emotionally, or intellectually - in the least.'
*:As so often happens, this joyous liaison eventually foundered on the rocks of parental disapproval, when Beth's mother chanced upon her and Addie in bed together."

*'''[http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hsxarc26.htm Lesbian Connection, Nov-Dec 1997].'''
*:"I have always been open with my daughter about my lesbianism. While I would never try to manipulate her sexuality, I am very proud to be the lesbian mother of a lesbian daughter! At age nine she started having sex with other girls with my support and approval. My daughter looks femme, yet acts very butch and is completely secure in her sexuality. Her early experiences were with girls at school, in the neighborhood, on sports teams, etc. Actually, she had a lot of them. Then at age 12 she developed a crush on one of my friends. She told me about her feelings, and I replied directly and emphatically that I approved. Since that time she has mostly dated adult women. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are lots of lesbians who include teenage girls among the types of women they find appealing, sexually and otherwise. As teens, some lesbians had their own loving sexual encounters with adult women. It is hypocritical for them to now deny that same opportunity to contemporary teenage lesbians. To me the ones being controlling and manipulative are those who tell the teens they must not have sex with adult women. Now that is control! Rather than labelling them as "baby dykes" and dismissing them, we should encourage girls to come out and support them through mentoring relationships (and yes, even intimate relationships with adult lesbians when the feelings are mutual). My wife and I have dedicated ourselves to being good role models for these girls. We refuse to dismiss or minimize their sexuality, and we support their inherent right to express it, even with adult women. 'Monica', Oklahoma City, OK."

*'''14-year-old girl with Alisha Nicole Smith, 20, detailed in: DeLea, Pete. "[http://web.archive.org/web/20100214172111/http://www.dnronline.com/news_details.php?AID=37082&CHID=2 Woman Admits To Relationship With Girl, 14: Minor Says She Is Not A Victim]", ''Daily News-Record'', April 15 2009.'''
*:"The girl reported that she had taken nude photos of herself and sent the pictures to Smith's cell phone. The 14-year-old told investigators sending nude pictures was a "normal part of their relationship," according to court documents. [...] The girl told investigators she doesn't believe she is a victim. Smith admitted to the relationship and told investigators she didn't force the girl to do anything she didn't want to do."

*'''[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kaitlyn-hunt-plea-deal-jail-four-months_n_4036862 Kaitlyn Hunt.]'''
*:"Hunt was 18 years old when she allegedly began a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old girl. Both Hunt and her girlfriend were students at Sebastian River High School in Sebastian, Fla., a small town about 90 miles outside Orlando. Hunt's mother, Kelley Hunt-Smith, has said the relationship was consensual. [...] The case began in the fall of 2012, when the 14-year-old girl's parents pressed charges against Hunt and petitioned the school board to have her expelled. "These people never came to us as parents, never tried to speak to us ... and tell us they had a problem with the girls dating," Hunt-Smith wrote in a statement once posted on Facebook. "They were out to destroy my daughter. [They] feel like my daughter 'made' their daughter gay.""

*'''Littauer, Amanda. (2020) [https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s], in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1, 95-108''':

:*'''Lisa (14-17 with a woman of 28).''' "Relationships with adults sometimes helped teens figure out what forms of intimacy they wanted. Adult partners could draw on experience that youth did not have, not only sexual but also emotional, relational, and cultural. Lisa, a black lesbian whom I interviewed about her childhood on the South Side of Chicago, spoke at length about a sexual relationship she shared with a twenty-eight-year-old woman when she was still in high school [14-17 years old - NewgonWiki] and subject to her mother’s rules and curfew. Lisa had prior sexual experience with age peers, but her experience with this older lover was quite different. “She was a woman, like an adult woman, a real woman,” Lisa recalled with a smile. “She was sensitive. She was gentle. She was open.” Lisa also described her as “warm” and “nurturing.” Lisa described herself as “large” and her lover as significantly larger than herself; her lover was comfortable in her own skin and with asking for what she wanted, and she was sexually responsive and enthusiastic. “It was fulfilling. It was. It was all of the things that I think I had imagined.” Lisa’s lover encouraged and supported her. Even through ups and downs and breaks in the relationship, Lisa credits it with helping her get into college" (p. 98-99)

:*'''Jeanne (14 with her 25-year-old neighbor, a mother of 2).''' "Jeanne reported that Paula had helped her work through her feelings, stop using drugs, and come out to her friends, who reacted supportively. Three years after the breakup, Jeanne wrote: “She is one of my closest friends.” (p. 99).

:*'''Sylvia (15 with a 35-year-old mother).''' "Sylvia remembered being attracted to girls by the age of thirteen and recognizing the feelings as sexual at fifteen, when she became involved with a thirty-five-year-old woman who was married with young children. When an interviewer asked how Sylvia felt about the relationship, Sylvia responded: “Just marvelous, I was just awestruck, it was the most marvelous thing to discover and it was an odd relationship.” She continued: “I suppose I really joined the family, there was no hassle, her husband knew what the relationship was and it didn’t bother him.” In fact, she explained, she was “devoted to him, too,” to the point that when Sylvia was staying with the family to help with the children during their mother’s illness, Sylvia became “sexually involved” with her lover’s husband, because “it just seemed the right sort of comforting thing to do.” The interviewer asked if Sylvia felt the need to tell other people in order to gain support, and Sylvia answered “no”; she “had a feeling of secrecy” to protect the relationship, because it was “so absolutely acceptable to all of us” but would almost certainly baffle her parents" (p. 101)

:*'''Carmen Vázquez (16 - helped to found the San Francisco Women’s Building in the 1970s).''' "There was this woman Toni, who’s a friend of the family, who was a closeted lesbian, whom I slept with and partied with for probably a year. I was this little butch thing. She was a femme. She would take me to these women’s houses who were, you know, lesbian-femme couples. We’d go to underground places. I was 16 years old, going on 17. [...] Toni was seven years older than me and the women that she was hanging out with were older than her. So I’m talking [with] women in their late twenties, early thirties, who absolutely knew that they were dead meat if they were caught with a minor, and they did it anyway. You know, they just did. They took care of me. They would let me have a beer now and then, but, you know, it’s mostly Coca-Cola. You don’t get the rum in the Coke until you’re older. But they also taught me how to dance, how to dress, how to flirt, and it was fabulous. It was completely fabulous. . . . So, that was sort of my sexual awakening, was with these older women." (p. 102).

:*'''Kate Day (15-18, multiple partners including radical feminist Victoria Brownworth; attempted to legally emancipate herself to protect her lover; participated in lesbian feminist activist group ''Dyke-Tactics'').''' "The story of another young lesbian named Kate Day further illustrates the extraordinary resourcefulness of teens for whom sex formed one aspect of their efforts to survive, connect, and become who they wanted and needed to be. Born in 1958, [...] She first met radical feminist Victoria Brownworth when she was fifteen or sixteen, [... who] began showing her the bars, helping her act tough enough to get in, and helping her learn the etiquette of working-class lesbian Philadelphia. Like Vázquez, Day said that the adults told her she was “jailbait” and that they had to be careful, but they mentored her anyway, including, ultimately, one time, in bed" (p. 103). "After this one-time sexual mentoring session, Kate felt more confident and entered into sexual encounters and relationships with other adult lesbians. She got into a lasting relationship with a woman, Chris, who was ten years older than her [25-28 - Newgon], and who worked as a nurse while living at home with her parents. Around this time, Kate’s parents found out about and strongly discouraged the relationship, and Kate moved into Chris’s family home. Chris’ parents, however, became nervous that they or their daughter could face legal exposure because of Kate’s underage status, so Kate took the extraordinary step of working with a feminist lawyer — with whom she was interning through her high school — to become an emancipated minor. [Eventually] Chris and Kate moved into a women’s collective in West Philadelphia, while Kate was still finishing up high school." (p. 104).

==Older woman-younger male relationships==

*'''"[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8477231/Woman-22-sexual-contact-three-times-boy-14-avoids-jail.html Woman, 22, who had 'sexual contact' three times with a boy, 14, who she met on the internet avoids jail after judge says 'there was genuine affection' between the pair."], ''Daily Mail'', Jul 2020'''
*:"Mr Doig said there appears to have been 'genuine affection' between them and the sexual activity only happened over a short period of time. The boy did not provide a victim impact statement and while he cooperated with the prosecution, he did not wish to provide any further information, the court heard. Johnson, of Elswick, Newcastle, who has no previous convictions, pleaded guilty to five counts of sexual activity with a child and was sentenced to a three year community order and must sign the sex offenders register for five years. Setencing her, Judge Sarah Mallett said: 'This was a relationship of mutual affection, there was no pressure applied or grooming of any sort."

*'''Various other cases in the Mainstream Media''':
*:Editor: It has become a cliche for stories involving boys with older women to refer to the sexual precocity and fascinations of younger teen boys - with the only palpable harms arising when the relationship is discovered by the authorities. In some cases, even the parents have tried to cancel proceedings, or achieve a softer sentence for the female perpetrators - stating that the boy was a willing party<ref>[https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/blackpool-woman-sexually-abused-schoolboy-20716952 Blackpool woman sexually abused schoolboy then tried to babysit other children - Lancs.live]</ref>. For example:
:*"[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3295537/Attorney-General-review-sentence-babysitter-Jade-Hatt-21-sex-11-year-old-boy-spared-jail.html Rob Ross, defending Hatt] '''[22, F]''', read a statement from the victim's '''[11, M]''' father to the court which stated: 'I know he told her he was 15. He looks older than his years. He is sex mad. He would have been fully up for this experience and in many ways sees it as a notch on his belt and is totally unaffected by it.' [...] The judge told Hatt: 'Having read everything before me, it was quite clear he was a mature 11-year-old and you were an immature 20-year-old so that narrows the arithmetic age gap between you. 'I have read the comments of the boy's father to the police where he doesn't consider you a typical 20-year-old. I have also read what he has said about the effect on the victim.'"
:*"[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3652508/Karate-teacher-arrested-allegedly-sending-nude-photos-11-year-old-student.html Female '''karate teacher, 21''', 'sent 15 nude photos to '''11-year-old student''' and invited him over to her house for sex'.] [...] Figueroa invited him to come over for her 21st birthday and told him 'I want to have sex with you' - boy responded 'Ok IDC'."
:*"[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583647/Female-paedophile-21-jailed-two-years-sex-eight-year-old-boy-50-times-starting-16.html Loren Morris], 21, was 16 when she first slept with the schoolboy '''[8],''' who cannot be identified, and continued until he was ten years old. Morris, who has a child of her own, would have regular intercourse [50+ times] with the boy, now 14, and was only found out after he was overheard bragging about it at school."
:*"[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alexandria-vera-former-houston-teacher-impregnated-by-13-year-old-pleads-guilty/ Alexandria] Vera was an English teacher at Thomas J. Stovall Middle School when she met the boy '''[14]''' during summer school last year. She reportedly told investigators they grew close during the following school year, when he was an eighth grade student. Harris County prosecutors say the sexual relationship went on for nine months. Court documents allege she was introduced to his family as the boy’s girlfriend, and the woman said that his parents supported the relationship and invited her to family gatherings. She reportedly said she told a school district investigator the family was “very supportive and excited” when she disclosed her pregnancy. She allegedly said she and the boy “love each other.” According to the probable cause document, she aborted the pregnancy after a child welfare investigator questioned her in February about the relationship, which she denied at the time. Students told KHOU they remember Vera as the “cool teacher” who let kids at the school use cell phones in class. They say they long suspected her to be romantically involved with the student, who prosecutors say was 13 at the time of the alleged crimes and is now 14."
:*[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2909963/Mom-30-charged-statutory-rape-intercourse-oral-sex-son-s-12-year-old-friend.html Missouri Mother]: "The boy '''[12]''' reportedly told investigators that he and his friend's mother had sex and oral sex at her suburban home while her own son was in the basement. [...] According to KPLR, the victim and the accused had told authorities that they were 'in love'."
:*"[https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/6924725/underage-relationship-18-13-ariadna-juarez/ 18-year-old beauty vlogger Ariadna Juarez] enlisted the help of her underage boyfriend's '''[13]''' mother to try and convince her 60,000 subscribers that his "maturity is not determined by age." [...] Meanwhile, the child's mother insists that she "would never allow him to be in any kind of danger" and claims that Ariadna is a "good girl" who is "very responsible." Unsurprisingly, the couple have since split because "the negativity got out of hand" and Ariadna believes that "the only reason this became such a big deal is because both me and him were both very well known on social media.""

*'''Daniel in [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-018-9506-6 Mulya (2018) - Contesting the Dominant Discourse of Child Sexual Abuse: Sexual Subjects, Agency, and Ethics]
*:"When I was 12 years old there were two female seminary students from another town came to my church to do their internship. I was interested in one of them because she had a pretty face and a sexy body. After one month we were involved in church activities together, we engaged in this sexual sin. It started when we were alone in the church’s music studio. At that time we were just looking at paintings on the wall. Then I approached her, and I don’t know why I just suddenly had the courage to kiss her cheek. She looked at me. I was terrifyingly afraid. But then she suddenly pulled me and kissed my lips. We kissed, and then she led me to the church attic to do something more. I was confused and afraid she might get pregnant. I asked her and she said she was on the pill so she won’t get pregnant. Then we had sex there. For the next three months, we did it almost every day in her bedroom within the church area. I told my friends at school and my cousins about it (but not my friends at church) and it made me feel proud. I didn’t feel ashamed at all. After a while I started to feel bored with her and I ditched her by coming only when I wanted sex. One day she said her internship was almost finished and she would soon return to her hometown. I was happy because finally I would be free from the commitment and responsibility. I distanced myself from her by saying I wanted to repent from this sin, and also because she was six years older than me. She was upset and perhaps bitterly angry with me, because one week before she left I didn’t talk to her at all.Later, after she left I felt guilty. I tried to apologize but I wasn’t able to contact her."

*'''Nancy Friday. [https://library.lol/main/19FC1CBD031410DE4EA4701285B55B87 ''My Secret Garden: Women's Sexual Fantasies''] (Simon & Schuster, 1973).''' Newgon: A collection of women's fantasies obtained through letters, tapes and personal interviews. Contains a large amount of frank, non-condemnatory discussion on sensitive topics such as sadism, bestiality, childhood sex, and sexual fantasy from childhood to adulthood.
*:"'''Mona'''" - "I am a teacher and I get my pleasure from administering the punishment. The boys I teach are between ten and fourteen. I regularly take one to my room where I administer the whip and cane, having ordered him to strip naked. I enjoy punishing him but I enjoy it most when I see him getting an erection. I wear provocative clothes and I enjoy embarrassing him when he gets the erection.
*:I have never punished a girl, mainly because I never had the opportunity to do so. But I often daydream about it. I imagine her being strapped to a bed with only panties and a bra on. I then order one of my boy pupils to strip her and to torture her. The tortures I normally dream about are pulling the hairs from her pubic region one at a time, inserting needles into her breasts, burning her with hot candle grease, whipping her, caning her, while at the same time making her admit filthy thoughts, masturbation, etc.
*:I also dream about having intercourse with one of my pupils. Some of my thoughts and indeed my actions are very diverse and queer" (pp. 219-220).

*'''Lentz, Robert J. (2011). ''[https://library.lol/main/4685D58FE18EE0AEE4D0155F489DB838 Gloria Grahame, Bad Girl of Film Noir: The Complete Career]''. McFarland & Co.'''
Newgon: Husband of oscar-winning actress '''Gloria Grahame''' caught her in bed with her 13 year old stepson '''Tony Ray'''. They later married and had 2 children in Grahame's happiest and longest lasting marriage. Grahame and her taboo husband suffered [[Secondary_Harm|intense stigma and social punishment]] for their relationship. Lentz wrote:

"[I]n 1958 she began seeing the man who would become her fourth husband. They had met in 1948, when Tony
Ray was only ten, and reportedly spent an afternoon of bliss together just three years later. It was this episode that caused Nicholas Ray so much pain and which abruptly ended his marriage to Gloria, as Tony Ray was Nick’s son by his first wife [...] After the ruckus that their afternoon rendezvous caused, Gloria didn’t see Tony again until 1958, but their friendship blossomed into love and they were married in 1960. [...] Gloria’s union with Tony Ray lasted more than four times longer than any of her other marriages, from May 13, 1960, until May 4, 1974. [...]

Nicholas Ray never really recovered from Gloria romancing and marrying her stepson, Tony. Father and son were estranged for the rest of their lives. But Tony had fallen in love with Gloria that 1951 afternoon, and later, when he was old enough to learn if he could share a life with her, he returned. Their marriage produced two boys" (pp. 6-7).

"Their relationship gradually developed from reluctant friends to intimate lovers and they married on May 13, 1960, in Mexico. Knowing that news of their nuptials would cause an uproar, they managed to keep it quiet for nearly two years. Eventually people found out and Gloria's name was trashed in the tabloid press. Nicholas Ray was stunned and furious. But Tony loved Gloria and she loved him. [...] Tony Ray suffered from some of the same issues his father did, but not to the same extent. He never fell out of love with Gloria as his father had. But their union followed the same pattern that all of Gloria’s previous marriages had: cycles of separation and reunion. Some of their troubles were caused by the public reaction to their marriage; some of them were monetary" (pp. 215-216).

*''' [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/RevisedThinking.htm Revised Thinking About Former Sexual Experience] by Porn-Dog in All About Sex, 1998.'''
*:A 17-year-old writes about an incident in which his 16- or 17-year-old babysitter engaged him in sex games when he was seven or eight, including fellating him. He was punished for it and grew up sexually repressed. He later came to the conclusion that the sex games were okay and his problem had been the way his parents reacted to it. He wrote, "I laugh at myself for calling someone doing me a favor like that 'abuse.'"

*'''The Confessions of Victor X, circa 1910, Chapter 2: [http://www.newgon.net/CPP/VictorX.htm Enlightenment]. See also [http://web.archive.org/web/20090422050236/http://www.calibanbooks.co.uk/htmlpages/victorx.html publisher's ad] for history of the book.'''
*:A man in pre-revolution Russia looks back on his aristocratic and prudish upbringing and the twists and gambols he went through to learn about human sexuality. This had been left by his parents entirely up to him to research in the musty family library and with whatever friends, servants, or servant's children knew enough and were willing to show him. At ten years old, Victor was molested by a young woman servant almost twice his age. The woman grabbed his hand and thrust it under her skirt while grabbing his penis with her other hand. The boy chastized her and thereafter avoided being alone with her. Far from being traumatized by the event, it played an important part in his budding awareness of sexuality. I believe this case shows, not only that a prepubescent boy of ten can be capable of resisting what he does not want, but also that when it is gently forced on him, he can be capable of processing the experience in his young mind and turning it to positive effect in his life.

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/awakening.htm Part 6] of A Young Boy's Awakening by "Girl Luvr" on alt.support.girl-lovers, February to March 2001.'''
*:A man in his sixties, looking back on his sexual adventures from age five to 19, recalls the time that two older girls held him down and fondled him. His initial reaction was to struggle, until he realized that it felt good and he then turned to convincing them to let him return the favor.

*'''Mary Kay LeTourneau -- [1] [http://larryelder.warnerbros.com/transcripts/VILI%20FUALAAU%20Transcript.pdf Interview] (PDF, 250 kb) by Larry Elder, September 15, 2004 and [http://larryelder.warnerbros.com/recapWed0.html Show Recap], [2] Ex-teacher pleads guilty to rape of boy who was 13 in Seattle Times, August 8, 1997'''
*:At the age of 22, Vili Fualaau tells his story of love for his once sixth-grade school teacher and now mother of his two children, Mary Kay LeTourneau, six weeks after she finished serving seven years in prison for statutory rape: "Mary's out now and we're finally together. And we still have the same feelings for each other, times forever." [1] At the age of 14, after she had given birth to their first baby, he said, "I want people to stop seeing me as a victim. My life is going to be fine. Mary didn't harm me in any way." [2]

*'''[http://www.newgon.net/CPP/HFP-089.htm Letter from Bayardo] in HFP Mailbag.'''
*: A 14-year-old boy writes about his desire for women aged 35 and older.

*'''John Irving (novelist and Oscar-winning screenwriter), quoted in: Leve, Ariel. "[http://www.ariel-leve.com/all-articles/sunday-times-magazine/interviews/john-irving-2009/ The world according to John Irving]", ''Sunday Times Magazine'', October 2009, p. 55.''' 
*:Seduced by a woman at the age of 11. "I was sexually initiated by a woman in her twenties [...] She was someone I was tremendously fond of. I never felt coerced, frightened; I never use the word abuse. [...] When she moved on with her life and moved away, I missed her because I was very fond of her. Later, having relations of my own sexually, they weren't as satisfying. Because groping around with a girl your own age wasn't as interesting as this woman."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100110021845/http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/796/letters.php Dave Douglass] (political activist) in letter "Abused child", ''Weekly Worker'' #796, December 3 2009.'''
*:"If Liz Hoskings, cares to read the first part of my autobiography, Geordies wa mental, she might find that not everyone has had such an apparently sheltered life that she had (Letters, November 26).
*:I started having sexual intercourse at the age of 12, as did a number of my schoolmates. The two girls who did me the pleasure were indeed two years older and therefore more experienced than the virginal little me. Not by the wildest stretch of anyone's imagination could it be called abuse, and I was highly delighted. I have to say I considered this extremely healthy - whether it was 'informed' or not, I'm really not sure.
*:What does Liz think I needed informing of? The two girls took for granted that, being a normal, developing teenager, I was up for it. I was and, since I hadn't a clue where to start had it been down to me, I was more than pleased that they seduced me - if you can call having your pants pulled down and a semi-naked girl bounce up and down on your penis 'seduction'.
*:Now, of course, the law would jail the girls for rape. And this is the trouble: you can talk up a case of 'abuse' by altering the meaning of facts and terminology, making this whole thing complex and difficult when really it's a perfectly natural process. The law today would say I had been a 'victim'. Actually, I wasn't, and no-one had done anything remotely wrong.
*:Two years later, four of my friends and I had sex with a real sexy women in her early thirties. Did she 'abuse' us? Are you crazy? We had planned the encounter for weeks and, if anything, we seduced her. Doubtless, she knew all sorts of clever stuff that we didn't, but what had that to do with anything? Half of the school would have chopped off their big toe to have come with us, and there is no doubt that we consented like there was no tomorrow.
*:Were we 'ill-informed'? Again I have to ask, ill-informed of what? What does Liz think we needed to know before getting laid? Basic facts, she suggests, because young people can be ignorant. But we knew well enough what the sex thing was about; finding enough women and girls to engage with was the problem. It was practical stuff, not theory, that we were searching for."

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/brong_1.pdf Loving Boys, Volume One], p. 62'''
*:"'My first serious relationship was with a much older woman. She was twenty-six and I was thirteen, but she thought I was fifteen. It was in the summer in New Hampshire. She was an artist, and she really loved me. We were very serious. I loved her a great deal too. I couldn't believe anything so big could happen to me.' The boy's father discovered, however, what had happened, and put an end to the summer romance. 'I never, ever saw her again, never talked to her again. I still think about her once in a while.'"

*'''Karen Ellis (37) with student Ben Dunbar (15), as recounted by Steven Angelides (2008) in "[http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a901992783~db=all~order=page Sexual offences against 'children' and the question of judicial gender bias]", ''Australian Feminist Studies'', 23(57), pp. 359-373.'''
*:"'In the way that it happened, you could say I was a predator', asserted Dunbar confidently to a defiant Liz Hayes in a Sixty Minutes interview two years after the offences (2005). 'I mean, I went after her … I took my chances. And I just went for it.' But Hayes would not have a bar of any inversion of the standard 'adult-perpetrator'/'child-victim' formula. 'But you know that's impossible', Hayes responded, 'You can never be the predator. You know that, don't you?' Despite the arrogant and didactic tone, Hayes's rhetorical question highlights how a narrative of inevitable child sexual abuse often functions to determine the normative boundaries of adolescent subjectivity at the same time as erasing the experiences of actual adolescents themselves. Dunbar was at pains to stress the misfit between the legal categories subsuming him (child, victim) and his experience: 'Well, apparently I'm the victim. You know that's …' But before he could even finish, Hayes cut him off. 'But you are. Not "apparently". You are.' Still emphasising a distinction ignored by Hayes between legal definition and what it seeks to 'capture', Dunbar replied, 'By the law, yeah, yep.' Sixty Minutes then provided him with a rare moment to articulate his position, albeit in an aggressively infantilising context, and one reflecting his experience at the hands of the law. 'You don't see yourself as a victim?' inquired Hayes cynically. 'Definitely not, no', he said with conviction. In his letter to the court in support of Ellis, Dunbar had pre-empted the question of potential harm and victim status: 'The only way this will affect me is if she was to go to prison or was harshly sentenced. I would feel guilty because I know that she is a good person … At all times I knew what I was doing and wanted to do it'."

*'''Film director Ingmar Bergman in his autobiography, ''Mein Leben'' (pp. 12-13, cited in [[Paidika]] 11, pp. 19-20)'''
*:"One evening I was to be bathed. The housemaid filled the bathtub and poured something in that smelled good. Alla Pitreus [widowed acquaintance of parents] knocked on the door and asked if I had fallen asleep. When I did not answer, she entered. She was wearing a green bathrobe, which she immediately took off. She explained that she wanted to scrub my back. I turned around and she also stepped into the bath, soaped me, brushed me with a hard brush, and rinsed me with her soft hands. Then she took my hand, drew it to her, and put it between her thighs. My heart was beating in my throat. She spread my fingers and pressed them deeper into her lap. With her other hand she clasped my sex, startled and wide awake. She cautiously drew back the foreskin and carefully removed a white material that had collected around the glans. Everything was pleasant and also did not frighten me in the least. She held me firmly between her strong, soft thighs, and without resistance and without fear I let myself sway in a strong, almost painful, pleasure. I was eight or perhaps nine years old."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20090325082637/http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_1126831.html?menu=entertainment.celebrities Anthony Kiedis (musician)]'''
*:"Kiedis reveals in a new autobiography that his father, a one time Hollywood cocaine dealer called Blackie Dammet, was always bringing home new girlfriends. The singer's ghostwriter, Larry 'Ratso' Sloman, told the New York Post: "His girlfriends were always young, hot girls. "One night, when Anthony was 12, he went with his father to the Rainbow Room and Blackie's girlfriend is there dancing for him. "And Anthony asks: "Dad, can I have my first sexual experience with your girlfriend?" And Blackie says: "Sure, son!" "So they go back to the house, and his dad builds a big bed out of four mattresses in his room and puts the girl in next to him. And that's how he loses his virginity.""

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080327125654/http://www.nypost.com/seven/01242007/gossip/pagesix/pagesix.htm Kirk Douglas] (Oscar-winning actor), in his 2008 memoir ''Let's Face It: 90 Years of Living, Loving, and Learning''.'''
*:"He also remembers getting deflowered in high school by his English teacher. "I had been a ragamuffin kid of 15 coping with a neighborhood filled with gangs ... under her guidance I became a different person ... I am eternally grateful. By today's standards she would have gone to jail. I had no idea we were doing something wrong. Did she?""

*'''Peter Jay Rudge, detailed in: Sullivan, Randall. "[http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/seduction.htm The Seduction of Peter Jay Rudge]," ''Rolling Stone'', January 1 1993.'''
*:F40 and M13. This story is very long, and known to us because of the legal persecution it faced. "Peter wasn't sure about the natural part but became convinced of the enjoyable aspects, he said, when Diane stroked him again - ``three or four more times'' - while they were riding her BMW. ``She would touch my penis, outside my clothing and inside,'' he said. ``She would just kind of move it around. She would ask if it felt good.'' He and Diane were ``just friends'' at that point, Peter explained: ``It was fun to be around her. There were, like, no limits.'' With Mrs. Walden, he and his brothers ``could do whatever we wanted,'' Peter said, ``and Diane paid for everything.'' And when the two of them were alone, Mrs. Walden ``spoke to me like a grown-up,'' Peter recalled. ``She was glad we were such close friends.''"

*'''[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/george-hamilton-talks-abo_n_135290.html George Hamilton, a Hollywood Actor - interviewed on "The View" on 16 October 2008.]'''
*:"When I was very young (12), I had a relationship with my stepmother (not kin … I've always liked older women)". Asked for age of woman: "She was about 28 … 30" … "my father never knew" "it was very normal … she didn't make me feel bad about it" Told that his experience was molestation: "I was molested? Damn, I'm down for it again". It went on for a "short period of time" and when he was a professional actor, they met again. "it didn't feel abnormal at the age of 12 … I cuddled" Informs us that he went further. "I don't think that it warped me … in my life."

*'''Anonymous, in e-mail to [[Newgon]] admin, 2009.'''
*:"My Story Of Consent
*:Yes, consent. I gave consent when I was 7 years old. My parents were friends with neighbors of ours who had a daughter named Patty. She used to babysit me, but never overnight. I remember being smitten with her. She was 17, slender build, and had long brunette hair with about a small C cup. She was very feminine but liked to roughhouse. Pinning me down and tickling me, play jokes on me, make weird noises (one she called Retarded Donald Duck) to make me laugh, play records for me. All of the fun stuff I can still remember. I really loved her and used to call her my girlfriend.
*:My parents left her with me for a few days while they went out of state. I had a much older brother (mid 20's) who used to come and go out of the house. He had clothes and all of his stuff still there. Anyways, I found his "stash" in a drawer. Playboys and Hustler. I got them out and started looking at these nude women. I knew I liked it because I could feel my heart and pulse racing. Didn't know about masturbation but I was feeling something stirring in my pants.
*:Patty came into his room and saw me looking at the magazines. She gave me this "oh shit" look and I thought I was going to get in trouble. But I didn't. She came over and asked me if this was the first time I'd ever seen a naked girl. I used to bathe with my mom when I was like 2 or something but she didn't look like what I was looking at currently. I then asked Patty whose "these" are, pointing to breasts. She told me they were boobs. I then pointed and said "what's this?" She said "it's called a pussy." I asked her why there was hair down there. She said everybody, boys and girls, have hair. I asked her if she did and she said yes. Then I ratherboldly asked if I could see. She became embarrassed and after what felt like an eternity said OK. She drops trou and shows me. YES!!!
*:Then we started looking at the Hustler mags. I saw pictures of a man performing cunnilingus on a woman. I knew about it before because a girl named Alicia I went to in Kindergarten asked me to do that to her.
*:I told Patty that I had done this "pointing to the oral pic" before. She laughed but I told her I was serious and started to basically reenact it to her. I guess it might have been a bit too much for Patty because she was completely dumbfounded. After the awkwardness she asked me if I liked it. I said "I guess so, yeah." I then asked if I could see her naked. She grabbed a stool and took all of her clothes off. I walked around her, marveling at her naked body. She asked me if I wanted to lick her pussy and said "I didn't have too if I didn't want to." I said I did. She started pointing out where and how to lick. I went down on her off and on. She started making these small moaning sounds and asked her what was wrong. She said "nothing, I like what you're doing, don't stop." I don't know how long it lasted initially but over the course of my parent's absence I performed oral on her. She never once asked to see me naked or "play" with me. Those couple of days were the only days we engaged in heavy sex play. I mean she still babysat me and all that. I always asked every time she came over to let me do those things to her. Sometimes she did but briefly. Me and her shared and strengthened our bond for each other up until the day I never saw her again.
*:She joined the military is the last thing I know. But she had the decency to tell me she was leaving for service and I cried and I cried begging her not to go. Even though I was around 9 then she gave it to me straight as I "deserved to not have the news sugarcoated." We loved each other. She told me she did and that we should always have a special place for each other in our hearts. I might be an adult now and society says I should look at my precious Patty in a negative light but I can't and I won't. She did nothing wrong because there was love attached to it, because I felt it then and I feel it now. The fact still remains true that I hold her very dear to me even after not seeing her all of these years."

*'''Alex's story in [http://web.archive.org/web/20080123073641/https://web.archive.org/web/20080123073641/http://www.soapboxgirls.com/soapboxgirls/jul01/articles/rageofconsent.html Rage of Consent] by Heather Corinna in Soapbox Girls, July 2001.'''
*:"All in all, it was a positive experience. I had an early taste of adult concerns and responsibilities with the person that I was involved with, but it was also a lot of fun. The sex was fantastic, and she was a really great friend. If more people of any age could have that kind of relationship we’d be better off. If more people of any age could have that kind of relationship we'd be better off."

*'''"NotAMonster" on the IIDB forum'''
*:A teenage pedophile has a good personal reason for not believing in the current dogma surrounding child sexuality. "When I was 10 I met a 21 year old girl who was a family friend of my cousins. Over a period of 2 months, we started to have a relationship. This went on until I was 13. She never forced me and I don't cry myself to sleep at night because of the memories that "monster" made me do. Never told my parents or anybody else about us because I knew she'd be arrested. Me being a girl lover may possibly be a result of being with her as a child, however it has not had a negative impact on my life. Not to mention we're still friends."<ref>Now defunct web forum used by a previous admin from Newgon.com: '''iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=4606675&postcount=176''' (dead, no archive available)</ref>

*'''[https://www.globalist.it/politics/2019/03/13/calenda-parla-del-figlio-piu-piccolo-gli-piace-il-comunismo-italiano-lo-faro-guarire/ Carlo Calenda, an Italian business executive and politician who previously served in the Italian senate - In an interview by weekly news magazine "Panorama" - 13 March 2019.]'''
*:"Then Calenda talks about himself. He describes becoming a father at a young age as “the most formative event of my life: the birth of my daughter Tay. I was sixteen, I had no rules. She gave me a sense of difference and an idea of responsibility that I didn’t have before.” And he goes on: “I grew up with everyone telling me, ‘You’re more mature than your age.’ I thought I’d prove it,” adding, “I suggest that all parents try to prevent that.”"
*:"It was a love story that began when he was just fourteen, with his mother’s husband’s secretary: “A beautiful girl, with red hair,” he recalls. “I used to visit producer Riccardo Tozzi, who was kind of a stepfather to me, and I flirted with her.” After a year-long relationship came an unexpected pregnancy: “I became a father and flunked school in the same year. But it was a turning point, and there wasn’t a single time I didn’t give her the bottle myself.”"
*:"He was forced to leave home: “They changed the locks and made me face my responsibilities. I went to live with the girl’s parents.” His parents made a deal with him: “We’ll support your daughter, but you’ll have to support yourself.”"

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]

Intergenerational Lesbianism

2026-07-02T20:47:38Z

Prue: /* Research literature */

{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__'''Intergenerational Lesbianism''', sometimes called '''Korephilia'''<ref>[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]</ref> is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love".

==Etymology and History==

The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love". The word ''lesbian'' itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of ''Lesbos'', where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.<ref>[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] ''NAMBLA Bulletin'', Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in ''Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin''. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 ''Sappho: The Tenth Muse''] (author unknown).</ref> Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, "How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:

<blockquote>
''Sappho, if you will not get up''

''and let us look at you''

''I shall never love you again''

''Get up, unleash your suppleness''

''lift off your Chian nightdress''<ref>(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).</ref>
</blockquote>

[...] One does not berate one's teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked."<ref>Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>

Frankel argued that "Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]". She ends with Sappho's blessing:

<blockquote>
''The gods bless you''

''May you sleep then''

''On some tender''

''girl friend's breast.''<ref>(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==

There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. "The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could" from "[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]]," recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl's relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|''Blue Is the Warmest Colour'']], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic.

Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and ''Body Politic'' writer Chris Bearchell,<ref>Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three..." A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. ''The Body Politic'', May 1978.</ref> lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],<ref>[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on "Women/Girl Love" - Or, Lesbians Do "Do It". ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O'Carroll, ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' (1980)].</ref> and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, "Teaching Sexuality". ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.</ref> It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a 'phase'. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the '[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]', and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.<ref>Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. ''The New Yorker'', September 11, 2023].</ref> It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy.

In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are "more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have"<ref name="paidika 8">[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]</ref>. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, "It’s possible," Millett explained, "that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners" (''Ibid'').

Writing in Toronto's ''The Body Politic'', lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed ''[[The Age Taboo]]'' (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|''The Man they Called a Monster'']] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was "impressed by the lucidity" of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]'s arguments, "by his politeness, courage, and stamina" after having invited and heard him speak at a 'Gay Cambridge' event, and lamented the "silenced women" afraid of speaking out after "the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them."<ref>''The Body Politic'', No. 84 (June, 1982).</ref> Donald recalls "a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences." She states that "Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend," and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend's mother at 8.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the "paedosexual taboo," might be "felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand." Because of their special closeness [to young people]," Knopf argued, "the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men" (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that "Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment."<ref>Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (''New Statesman'', 16 Sept, 1977).</ref>

Ultimately, Berlin's female intergenerational rights organization ("Kanalratten" meaning "Sewer Rats") - which had published a manifesto<ref name="paidika 8" /> - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.

In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, "no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl," could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the "love between adults and children", and said she wanted "to do everything to change such laws." After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP's campaign]</ref>

Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'' - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer's will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:

<blockquote>''I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]</ref>''</blockquote>

Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book ''A Restricted Country'' (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):

<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.''

''While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''<ref>See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Many editions available.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. <ref>[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]</ref>
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] (commonly cited but rarely used symbol)
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...". ''The Body Politic'', May 1978. Reprint from ''Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed''.
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in ''The Body Politic''.

</gallery>

==Research literature==

*Lauren Jae Gutterman. (2026). Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151. - An analysis of ''One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth'' (ed. by Ann Heron; Alyson books: Boston, 1983), which included several testimonies of relationships between legally defined minors and adults.<ref>Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151.</ref>

*::"Amy, a sixteen-year-old girl from a conservative Baptist family in Texas, recounts how she developed a crush on her dance teacher when she was only nine years old. After three years, at age twelve, Amy's twenty-three-year-old dance teacher “brought her out” sexually when they shared a hotel room on a trip for an out-of-town dance performance. Amy's relationship with her dance teacher continued secretly for several years until Amy and her family eventually moved away. The dance teacher validated Amy’s sexual identity and introduced Amy to books and other resources about lesbian life. In fact, Amy’s teacher was the first to introduce her to the word “lesbian” itself. Writing for ''One Teenager in Ten'' several years later while in the midst of a lesbian relationship with a similarly aged peer, Amy continued to have positive feelings about her sexual relationship with her teacher and remained in contact with her." (Gutterman, pp. 146-147). [Note: this testimony is quoted directly from the 1983 book in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|'adult female with minor' lived experiences]] page].

*Amanda H. Littauer, ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'', in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1 (2020), 95-108.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]</ref>

*Marion E.P. de Ras, ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934'' (Routledge, 2008).<ref>Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].</ref><ref>For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, "The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?", in ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'' 5:1 (1994), 90–114.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]</ref>

*Marina Knopf, "Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children", in ''Paidika'', Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).<ref>[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].</ref>

*''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, ''Interview'' in ''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

*Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].</ref>

* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, 'Female Paedophilia', in ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]'' (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].

*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction", in ''International Journal of Greek Love'', Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.<ref>[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]</ref>

*Jenn McCollum, "The Romance of Henry James's Female Pedophile, in ''MP: An Online Feminist Journal'', Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).<ref>[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].</ref>

==See also==

*[[Pederasty]]
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.

==External Links==

*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.

===Personal perspectives===

*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly's testimony]
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]
[[Category:Gay]]
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]
[[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]]

Intergenerational Lesbianism

2026-07-02T20:45:03Z

Prue: /* Research literature */

{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__'''Intergenerational Lesbianism''', sometimes called '''Korephilia'''<ref>[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]</ref> is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love".

==Etymology and History==

The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love". The word ''lesbian'' itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of ''Lesbos'', where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.<ref>[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] ''NAMBLA Bulletin'', Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in ''Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin''. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 ''Sappho: The Tenth Muse''] (author unknown).</ref> Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, "How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:

<blockquote>
''Sappho, if you will not get up''

''and let us look at you''

''I shall never love you again''

''Get up, unleash your suppleness''

''lift off your Chian nightdress''<ref>(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).</ref>
</blockquote>

[...] One does not berate one's teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked."<ref>Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>

Frankel argued that "Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]". She ends with Sappho's blessing:

<blockquote>
''The gods bless you''

''May you sleep then''

''On some tender''

''girl friend's breast.''<ref>(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==

There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. "The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could" from "[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]]," recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl's relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|''Blue Is the Warmest Colour'']], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic.

Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and ''Body Politic'' writer Chris Bearchell,<ref>Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three..." A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. ''The Body Politic'', May 1978.</ref> lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],<ref>[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on "Women/Girl Love" - Or, Lesbians Do "Do It". ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O'Carroll, ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' (1980)].</ref> and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, "Teaching Sexuality". ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.</ref> It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a 'phase'. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the '[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]', and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.<ref>Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. ''The New Yorker'', September 11, 2023].</ref> It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy.

In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are "more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have"<ref name="paidika 8">[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]</ref>. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, "It’s possible," Millett explained, "that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners" (''Ibid'').

Writing in Toronto's ''The Body Politic'', lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed ''[[The Age Taboo]]'' (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|''The Man they Called a Monster'']] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was "impressed by the lucidity" of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]'s arguments, "by his politeness, courage, and stamina" after having invited and heard him speak at a 'Gay Cambridge' event, and lamented the "silenced women" afraid of speaking out after "the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them."<ref>''The Body Politic'', No. 84 (June, 1982).</ref> Donald recalls "a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences." She states that "Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend," and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend's mother at 8.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the "paedosexual taboo," might be "felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand." Because of their special closeness [to young people]," Knopf argued, "the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men" (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that "Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment."<ref>Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (''New Statesman'', 16 Sept, 1977).</ref>

Ultimately, Berlin's female intergenerational rights organization ("Kanalratten" meaning "Sewer Rats") - which had published a manifesto<ref name="paidika 8" /> - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.

In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, "no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl," could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the "love between adults and children", and said she wanted "to do everything to change such laws." After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP's campaign]</ref>

Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'' - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer's will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:

<blockquote>''I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]</ref>''</blockquote>

Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book ''A Restricted Country'' (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):

<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.''

''While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''<ref>See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Many editions available.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. <ref>[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]</ref>
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] (commonly cited but rarely used symbol)
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...". ''The Body Politic'', May 1978. Reprint from ''Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed''.
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in ''The Body Politic''.

</gallery>

==Research literature==

*Lauren Jae Gutterman. (2026). Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151. - An analysis of ''One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth'' (ed. by Ann Heron; Alyson books: Boston, 1983), which included several testimonies of relationships between legally defined minors and adults.<ref>Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151.</ref>

*::"Amy, a sixteen-year-old girl from a conservative Baptist family in Texas, recounts how she developed a crush on her dance teacher when she was only nine years old. After three years, at age twelve, Amy's twenty-three-year-old dance teacher “brought her out” sexually when they shared a hotel room on a trip for an out-of-town dance performance. Amy's relationship with her dance teacher continued secretly for several years until Amy and her family eventually moved away. The dance teacher validated Amy’s sexual identity and introduced Amy to books and other resources about lesbian life. In fact, Amy’s teacher was the first to introduce her to the word “lesbian” itself. Writing for ''One Teenager in Ten'' several years later while in the midst of a lesbian relationship with a similarly aged peer, Amy continued to have positive feelings about her sexual relationship with her teacher and remained in contact with her." (Gutterman, pp. 146-147).

*Amanda H. Littauer, ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'', in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1 (2020), 95-108.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]</ref>

*Marion E.P. de Ras, ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934'' (Routledge, 2008).<ref>Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].</ref><ref>For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, "The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?", in ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'' 5:1 (1994), 90–114.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]</ref>

*Marina Knopf, "Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children", in ''Paidika'', Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).<ref>[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].</ref>

*''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, ''Interview'' in ''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

*Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].</ref>

* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, 'Female Paedophilia', in ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]'' (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].

*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction", in ''International Journal of Greek Love'', Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.<ref>[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]</ref>

*Jenn McCollum, "The Romance of Henry James's Female Pedophile, in ''MP: An Online Feminist Journal'', Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).<ref>[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].</ref>

==See also==

*[[Pederasty]]
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.

==External Links==

*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.

===Personal perspectives===

*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly's testimony]
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]
[[Category:Gay]]
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]
[[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]]

Intergenerational Lesbianism

2026-07-02T20:44:04Z

Prue: /* Research literature */

{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__'''Intergenerational Lesbianism''', sometimes called '''Korephilia'''<ref>[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]</ref> is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love".

==Etymology and History==

The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love". The word ''lesbian'' itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of ''Lesbos'', where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.<ref>[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] ''NAMBLA Bulletin'', Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in ''Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin''. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 ''Sappho: The Tenth Muse''] (author unknown).</ref> Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, "How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:

<blockquote>
''Sappho, if you will not get up''

''and let us look at you''

''I shall never love you again''

''Get up, unleash your suppleness''

''lift off your Chian nightdress''<ref>(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).</ref>
</blockquote>

[...] One does not berate one's teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked."<ref>Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>

Frankel argued that "Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]". She ends with Sappho's blessing:

<blockquote>
''The gods bless you''

''May you sleep then''

''On some tender''

''girl friend's breast.''<ref>(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==

There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. "The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could" from "[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]]," recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl's relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|''Blue Is the Warmest Colour'']], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic.

Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and ''Body Politic'' writer Chris Bearchell,<ref>Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three..." A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. ''The Body Politic'', May 1978.</ref> lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],<ref>[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on "Women/Girl Love" - Or, Lesbians Do "Do It". ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O'Carroll, ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' (1980)].</ref> and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, "Teaching Sexuality". ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.</ref> It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a 'phase'. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the '[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]', and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.<ref>Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. ''The New Yorker'', September 11, 2023].</ref> It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy.

In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are "more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have"<ref name="paidika 8">[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]</ref>. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, "It’s possible," Millett explained, "that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners" (''Ibid'').

Writing in Toronto's ''The Body Politic'', lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed ''[[The Age Taboo]]'' (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|''The Man they Called a Monster'']] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was "impressed by the lucidity" of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]'s arguments, "by his politeness, courage, and stamina" after having invited and heard him speak at a 'Gay Cambridge' event, and lamented the "silenced women" afraid of speaking out after "the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them."<ref>''The Body Politic'', No. 84 (June, 1982).</ref> Donald recalls "a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences." She states that "Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend," and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend's mother at 8.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the "paedosexual taboo," might be "felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand." Because of their special closeness [to young people]," Knopf argued, "the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men" (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that "Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment."<ref>Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (''New Statesman'', 16 Sept, 1977).</ref>

Ultimately, Berlin's female intergenerational rights organization ("Kanalratten" meaning "Sewer Rats") - which had published a manifesto<ref name="paidika 8" /> - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.

In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, "no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl," could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the "love between adults and children", and said she wanted "to do everything to change such laws." After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP's campaign]</ref>

Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'' - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer's will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:

<blockquote>''I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue.<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]</ref>''</blockquote>

Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book ''A Restricted Country'' (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):

<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.''

''While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''<ref>See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Many editions available.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. <ref>[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]</ref>
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] (commonly cited but rarely used symbol)
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...". ''The Body Politic'', May 1978. Reprint from ''Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed''.
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in ''The Body Politic''.

</gallery>

==Research literature==

*Gutterman, L.J. (2026). Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151. - An analysis of ''One Teenager in Ten: Writings by Gay and Lesbian Youth'' (ed. by Ann Heron; Alyson books: Boston, 1983), which included several testimonies of relationships between legally defined minors and adults.<ref>Gutterman, L.J. (2026). [https://dx.doi.org/10.1353/sex.00058 Intergenerational Sex in One Teenager in Ten]. ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'', 35(1), 144-151.</ref>

*::"Amy, a sixteen-year-old girl from a conservative Baptist family in Texas, recounts how she developed a crush on her dance teacher when she was only nine years old. After three years, at age twelve, Amy's twenty-three-year-old dance teacher “brought her out” sexually when they shared a hotel room on a trip for an out-of-town dance performance. Amy's relationship with her dance teacher continued secretly for several years until Amy and her family eventually moved away. The dance teacher validated Amy’s sexual identity and introduced Amy to books and other resources about lesbian life. In fact, Amy’s teacher was the first to introduce her to the word “lesbian” itself. Writing for ''One Teenager in Ten'' several years later while in the midst of a lesbian relationship with a similarly aged peer, Amy continued to have positive feelings about her sexual relationship with her teacher and remained in contact with her." (Lauren Gutterman, pp. 146-147).

*Amanda H. Littauer, ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'', in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1 (2020), 95-108.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]</ref>

*Marion E.P. de Ras, ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934'' (Routledge, 2008).<ref>Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].</ref><ref>For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, "The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?", in ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'' 5:1 (1994), 90–114.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]</ref>

*Marina Knopf, "Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children", in ''Paidika'', Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).<ref>[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].</ref>

*''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, ''Interview'' in ''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

*Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].</ref>

* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, 'Female Paedophilia', in ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]'' (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].

*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction", in ''International Journal of Greek Love'', Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.<ref>[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]</ref>

*Jenn McCollum, "The Romance of Henry James's Female Pedophile, in ''MP: An Online Feminist Journal'', Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).<ref>[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].</ref>

==See also==

*[[Pederasty]]
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.

==External Links==

*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.

===Personal perspectives===

*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly's testimony]
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]
[[Category:Gay]]
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]
[[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]]

NSPCC

2026-07-01T15:05:46Z

Prue: /* Angry Harry's articles */

<div style="margin-right: 25px; float: left;">__TOC__</div>[[Image:Pcc.JPG|thumb|NSPCC HQ, Curtain Road, London.]]'''The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children''' (NSPCC, f. 1884) is a UK-based children's charity with statutory powers, and a history of circulating questionable fundraising literature. Between the 00s and the 10s, its size has been estimated at roughly 2,500 employees, with revenues of £118 Million. During this period, they were also a recipient of EU funding.

The charity are known for their emotive TV commercials, and have sometimes portrayed a demonic/oversexed image of males with children in their custody - or sought to play on common fears - putting them at odds with Mens Rights Activists among others.

==Corporate/state-model==

The NSPCC's success led to it effectively becoming an arm of the British state, receiving funding to carry out training programmes and other services. The NSPCC is the only UK charity which has been granted<ref>[http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1989/ukpga_19890041_en_6 Children Act 1989]</ref> statutory powers (under the [[Children Act 1989]]), allowing it to apply for care and supervision orders for "children at risk". It is also the only charity with the statutory power to undertake child abuse investigations and can be called upon by the police and local authorities to assist them. State-employed care-givers and web-administrators have been known to frequently refer cases of child abuse to the NSPCC or encourage the use of this organisation as a contact point. [[Philip Jenkins]], 'Intimate Enemies' (Aldine de Gruyter, New York, 1992)<ref>[https://openlibrary.org/books/OL1705803M/Intimate_enemies Intimate Enemies: Moral Panics in Contemporary Great Britain]</ref>, pp. 104-113, explains how this close relationship was vital to the success of the charity and its ideas:

<blockquote>''The NSPCC acted as the conduit by which American perceptions of a problem (and soon a crisis) were introduced to Britain. NSPCC director Arthur Morton first visited the United States in 1964 and spent time with Dr C Henry Kempe, who would long be a major influence on British child protection policy.... Researchers and other officials began making frequent visits to the United States to study changing perceptions of child maltreatment. The various researchers published extensively on the topic, and there was interchange of ideas and personnel between the NSPCC and the child welfare section of the Department of Health and Social Security (DHSS), the department of central government with overall charge of the welfare system. Joan Court of the NSPCC Research Unit actually moved to head the relevant section of the SHSS. From 1970, DHSS circulars began to adopt NSPCC ideas...''

[The NSPCC] ''was vital to the establishment of new ideas about sexual abuse...''

''Alan Gilmour had become director in 1979 in the middle of a crisis: “Its Inspectors...were diminishing in number and in some areas losing credibility because they were too few and too scattered to provide a coherent service; and this service was too vaguely defined” (Gilmour 1988:133-134). Gilmour's directorship produced a near revolution, focused especially on the society's centenary in 1984. This offered abundant opportunities for fund-raising and publicity... Gilmour launched an aggressive and more proactive effort at child protection, in intimate alliance with public agencies.... By 1989, the society was drawing about 11 percent of its £36 million ($45 million) budget from central and local government, the balance being raised from fund-raising and investments. The society's budget had increased over the decade by 1000%.''</blockquote>
[[File:Screenshot 20210918-064641 DuckDuckGo.jpg|thumb|Bizarre and implausible messaging]]

==Dishonesty==

Various examples of the NSPCC's dishonesty and disregard for young people include sensationalized advertising,<ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/1999/aug/08/foodanddrink.childprotection The Guardian - NSPCC]</ref> the contrivance of questionable social networking identities for what they claim to be abused children (see gallery),<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20080423050030/http://www.donthideit.com/profiles/hubpage.html Questionable social media Profiles]</ref> and the use of falsified examples of child abuse to solicit donations in their mass mailings.<ref>[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481243/How-NSPCC-faked-child-abuse-stories-generate-cash.html Daily Mail: Fake Abuse]</ref> Children have been encouraged to expand the range of behaviors they deem to be abusive,<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5047120.stm BBC - Schools 'not advising on abuse']</ref> strongly supporting the hypothesis of the NSPCC as a [[Research: Secondary Harm|secondary victimizer]] (see section on victimologists).

It has been pointed out that the NSPCC's 2009 findings that a quarter of 18 to 24 year olds had experienced "severe physical violence, sexual abuse or neglect in childhood" and that one in five had been "physically attacked by an adult, raped or sexually assaulted or severely neglected during their lives" are tainted by their inclusivity. Those categories included "serious emotional neglect or lack of physical care or supervision", which were defined as including "parents never or hardly ever asking their child who they were going out with or where or what they were doing".<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/education-12449643 Million children 'severely maltreated', says NSPCC]</ref>

NSPCC campaigns have been criticised<ref>[http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/01/childrensservices.comment Guardian: Criticism]</ref> for their ineffectuality by organisations such as NPC:

<blockquote>''The answer, suggests the report by New Philanthropy Capital (NPC), is not a lot. Campaigning to change public attitudes and keep abuse on the radar, as NSPCC does with some success, has its place, but there is zero evidence that this leads to fewer beatings. The logic behind Full Stop, it argues, is flawed and naive: "Improved attitudes to abuse can certainly facilitate the identification and reporting of abuse that is already occurring, but they seem to have very little bearing on whether a substance-abusing parent neglects their child behind closed doors, or whether a sexual offender chooses to abuse a child when they have the opportunity to do so in secret."''</blockquote>

The charity has also faced criticism for its obsession with publicity and advertising, for fearmongering<ref>[http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3890641,00.html Guardian: Criticism of fearmongering]</ref><ref>[http://www.sirc.org/media/mediaaugust1399.html SIRC - Advertising criticism]</ref> and fabricating or exaggerating facts and figures in its research. In an article in Spiked Magazine, [[Frank Furedi]] professor of sociology at the University of Kent, branded it a <ref>[https://www.spiked-online.com/2004/01/19/a-danger-to-the-nations-children/ Frank Furedi]</ref> ''"lobby group devoted to publicising its peculiar brand of anti-parent propaganda and promoting itself."'' NSPCC wages are most certainly excessive for a charity - matching those of civil servants in most cases. For example, in 2008 (Guardian), a Campaigns Development Adviser could expect to earn up to £40k pa and graduates entered at £16-18k pa (Hobsons, 2008).

==Sex, and other scandals==

There have been examples of sex-scandals involving NSPCC staff. These include an amateur fetishistic pornographer, and the authorization of prolific sex-abuse fantasist, fraudster and child sex offender [[Carl Beech]] to give talks at primary schools.<ref>[https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nspccs-top-celeb-booker-filmed-20568053 Rubber Fetish]</ref><ref>[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7274369/Paedophile-Carl-Beechs-NSPCC-role-allowed-mingle-children-young-four.html Carl Beech/NSPCC]</ref> Data misuse has also been indicated and led to a fine from the Information Commissioner in 2017.<ref>[https://ico.org.uk/about-the-ico/news-and-events/news-and-blogs/2017/04/ico-fines-eleven-more-charities/ ICO Fine]</ref>

==SRA: A betrayal of the NSPCC's agenda==

During the late 1980s and early 1990s, a moral panic emerged over alleged ritual satanic abuse. The NSPCC provided a publication known as 'Satanic Indicators' to social services around the country that has been blamed for some social workers panicking and making false accusations. The most prominent of these cases was in Rochdale in 1990 when up to 20 children were taken from their homes and parents after social services believed them to be involved in satanic or occult ritual abuse. The allegations were later found out to be false.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20121009121020/http://menmedia.co.uk/middletonguardian/news/s/508066_satanic_abuse_the_truth_at_last_ MEN Media: Satanic abuse: The truth at last ]</ref> The case was the subject of a BBC documentary which featured recordings of the interviews made by NSPCC social workers, revealing that flawed techniques and leading questions were used to gain evidence of abuse from the children. The documentary revealed<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4595158.stm documentary BBC - When Satan came to town]</ref><ref>[https://www.spiked-online.com/2006/01/12/a-full-stop-to-the-satanic-panic/ Spiked - A full stop to the Satanic panic]</ref> that social services were wrongly convinced by organisations such as the NSPCC, that abuse was occurring and was so rife that they made allegations before any evidence was considered.

[[File:Wp-content.jpg|thumb|More disturbing advertising]]
==Thought crime==

Further assimilation of NSPCC incentives on Child Pornography into UK law would lead to an expansion of the current ''thought crime'' agenda. For example, a NSPCC Policy Advisor, Zoe Hilton supported the closure of role-play websites in which it is possible for adults to play out adult-child sex fantasies (age-regression) without involving any actual minors:

<blockquote>''It is not OK to fantasise about this stuff. These kind of interactions need to be shut down.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20100512042538/http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641290719 Zoe Hilton - Age regression bigotry]''</ref></blockquote>

[[Prostasia Foundation]] are one example of a "sex positive" child protectionist charity who have pled for donors to reconsider leaving large amounts of money in their will to the NSPCC, because of such positions.

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:Nspcc.png||Example of claimed "real life stories" with implausible youthspeak
</gallery>

==See also==

*[[Child safety mascot]] - The NSPCC sometimes uses mascots, such as the Pantosaurus, a dinosaur that advises children not to let strangers touch their genitals.

==External links==

*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Society_for_the_Prevention_of_Cruelty_to_Children Wikipedia]
*[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2002/feb/19/childprotection.comment The NSPCC needs to be stopped, full stop] - Dea Birkett, Guardian article.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20080517035730/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article3187323.ece Guardians that need a good smack] - Times criticism.

===Reddit articles===

*[https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1ivcpb/the_nspcc_is_an_evil_organisation/ The NSPCC is an evil organisation]
*[https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/flqoz/this_is_why_i_dont_give_money_to_the_nspcc/ This is why I don't give money to the NSPCC]

===Angry Harry's articles===

Archived opinion pieces from a [[Masculism|Men's Rights]] Activist who [https://angryharry.mra-archive.com/ bitterly opposed] the children's charity.
<div style="column-count:2;-moz-column-count:2;-webkit-column-count:2">
*[https://angryharry.com/es-Curse-of-the-NSPCC.htm?AHMain The Curse of the NSPCC] - Aggregate of many articles criticizing the NSPCC.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20101115113011/http://www.angryharry.com/reNSPCCSHATTERSCHILDABUSEMYTHS.htm?note NSPCC Shatters Child Abuse Myths] - 2000.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20111012052601/http://angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm NSPCC: Do We Need An Abuse Industry?] - 2004.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20111011161725/http://angryharry.com/esNSPCCNeedsToBeStopped.htm NSPCC: Demonising Men] - 2004.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20111010185357/http://www.angryharry.com/esNSPCCExposedYetAgain.htm?note NSPCC Exposed Yet Again] - 2006.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20101115111751/http://www.angryharry.com/esDoWeNeedAnAbuseIndustry.htm?note NSPCC: Do We Need An Abuse Industry?] - 2007.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20101115103449/http://www.angryharry.com/es-Charity-Or-Self-Interest.htm?note Charity or Self-Interest?] - 2008.
*[https://web.archive.org/web/20140213234445/http://www.angryharry.com/Child-Abuse-The-Real-Culprits.htm Child Abuse: The Real Culprits] - 2014.
</div>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Child Advocacy]][[Category:Victims' Rights]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Organisations]][[Category:Organisations: Charity & NGO]][[Category:Organisations: Real-life]][[Category:Organisations: British]][[Category:Organisations: Unsympathetic]][[Category:Organisations: Professional]]

Age of Consent

2026-07-01T15:03:59Z

Prue:

__NOTOC__[[File:Consent.png|thumb|The British National Council for One Parent Families supported abolition in 1979]]
The '''Age of [[Consent]]''' is an arbitrary age at which a person is considered legally capable of consenting to sex within a given country (or with a citizen of that country anywhere in the world, if it has extraterritorial jurisdiction laws). Where a country's age of consent laws for sexual activity treat people convicted of those offences with the same severity as criminal [[rape]], the law is often referred to as [[statutory rape]].

This definition highlights several important factors which go into determining the age of consent. To begin with, it is arbitrary. In other words, the age is not chosen based on an empirical and measurable personal quality which relates to the capacity for consent, but rather, it is chosen as a compromise number based largely on political, social, psychological and judicial precedent factors in a legislative process often only marginally related to the actual capabilities of the individuals to which it is applied. This is seen as necessary when such an age must be determined, despite the fact that no two individuals mature at precisely the same rate.

Another important factor is that of jurisdiction. A jurisdiction represents the abstract collection of individuals over whom a certain legal institution has authority. As a direct consequence of the arbitrariness of the age of consent, the actual number varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. An individual who may be capable of legally consenting in one area may, simply by crossing a border, find that his consent is no longer valid.

==Current debate==
[[File:KTkQrjw.jpeg|thumb|1990s initiative to "decriminalise" adult-minor sexual contact (i.e. as with drugs in some countries, the supply would remain illegal and users cared for, but it would not be punished as a crime)]]
Recent years have seen a general trend towards decriminalizing, or at least destigmatizing sexual acts which carry a burden of moral guilt, but no substantiated evidence of harm. HIV nondisclosure is one such example,<ref>[https://thecanadiandailynews.com/news/canada/former-barrie-ont-womans-conviction-for-hiv-non-disclosure-overturned/ HIV transmission laws are being described as unscientific]</ref> and similar trends have been seen in sex-work advocacy, [[Research: Recidivism and other offending figures|SOL Reform]] and sex education, the latter leading to accusations of so-called [[grooming]]. It appears there is an [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes|evidentiary base]] for making similar arguments with respect to voluntary minor-adult sex, although critical mass has not yet been reached for such substantial moves.

The following positions on the age of consent are not strict categories:

*The '''authoritarian''' position holds that current age of consent laws are set at inadequately low ages, and should be revised, in some cases as high as 21 or 25. This position is sometimes based more on antipathy towards sexual behavior among young people rather than extensive authoritarian protectionism.
*The '''conservative''' position (not necessarily right-leaning conservatism) holds that current age of consent laws are appropriate and should be enforced as they stand. This would segue into a globalist conservative position holding that jurisdictions with lower ages of consent should bring themselves up to parity with jurisdictions with higher ones.
*The '''libertarian''' or '''reformist''' position holds that while at least in the cultures concerned, age of consent in itself is a valid and desirable concept, the current numbers are too high or unrealistic and should be revised downwards. This might take the form of an [[Ethos of Newgon|elective system]] whereby a minor chooses to emancipate themselves in various areas, including consent to physical relationships.
*The '''replacement''' position holds that the concept of age of consent is not valid for its purported purpose and should be replaced with another system of determining capability to legally consent. The replacements most typically take the form of marriage, or some type of preparation or education, examination or empirically graded "test" to determine whether an individual is "ready", sometimes coupled with licensing schemes.
*The '''repeal''' position holds that the concept of age of consent should be eliminated completely.

===Poll in Britain===
On November 16, 2003 Channel 4 broadcast a program; "Sex Before 16: Why the Law is Failing" and afterwards conducted a phone poll of its viewers in the United Kingdom.

Of the 3366 respondents to the four options;
*34% thought the age of consent should be reduced to 14
*35% thought it should stay at 16
*13% thought it should be raised to 18
*18% thought it should be abolished<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20031124074934/http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/A/adultat14/consent/aoc_vote.shtml</ref>

Whilst this would suggest that there is more potential to lower the age, the topic remains controversial, and the Channel 4 viewer sample was questionably left-libertarian biased.

===Popular opinion===

It is generally hard to gauge popular opinion on this topic, due to a dearth of reliable polling. '''Debate.org''' conducted a poll, in which over 2/3rds supported reform, with many radical proposals. Between 2008 and some unknown point, '''"misterpoll.com"''' published a large list of questions related to the Age of Consent. Their respondents, mainly men, answered mostly between the years of 2008 and 2011. Over half did not support the idea of an age of consent, and 86% agreed that minors should be able to perform in a strip tease. It is unclear how representative this sample is.<ref>[https://www.misterpoll.com/polls/332845/results MisterPoll Results] and [https://web.archive.org/web/2011*/https://www.misterpoll.com/polls/332845/results Misterpoll Archived Results]</ref>

<gallery>
File:Debate.org.png|Debate.org
</gallery>

====Is support for high ages of consent associated with poor intelligence?====

Limited studies suggest that support for maintaining a high age is associated with lesser intelligence.<ref>[https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/t5pmq_v2 Bronski study article on intelligence]</ref>

===The UN===

A 2023 controversy arose on social media<ref>[https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/un-backed-legal-recommendations-normalize-sex-minors-critics-say New UN-backed legal recommendations normalize sex with minors, outraged critics say]</ref> following the publication of new legal principles problematizing the idea that adolescents are inherently unable to [[consent]], including to sex. American conservatives reacted by circulating the theory that such opinions represent an attempt to "soften up" the public prior to the release of supposedly "damning" information concerning [[Jeffrey Epstein]]'s high-profile visitors.

==Ages of consent around the world==
[[File:Unrestricted hetero AoC.png|250px|right|thumb|''Unrestricted'' heterosexual ages of consent by legislation: The law of that country or state dictates that any sane and sober person who is this age or older is able to consent to sexual acts with the opposite sex, regardless of any other factor, such as age difference or hierarchy between the partners. The law may still forbid prostitution (paying for sex) or filming/photographing the acts if an underage partner is involved, but the act in itself is legal.]]
[[File:Authority-only restricted hetero AoC.png|250px|right|thumb|Authority-restricted heterosexual ages of consent by legislation: The law of that country or state dictates that any sane and sober person who is this age or older and ''is not a subordinate to the older partner'' (i.e. the older partner is not their boss, teacher, etc.) is able to consent to sexual acts with the opposite sex.]]
:''For a short analysis of the historical context behind AoC laws and their interpretation, see our article on [[Consent]]. Given the constantly changing nature of AoC laws, an up-to-date list can not be provided here. See [[Wikipedia:Ages of consent by country|Wikipedia]].''

Some interesting examples of low ages of consent include Japan<ref>[https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/japan AoC.net - Japan]</ref> (who appear to be raising it<ref>[https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20230314/p2g/00m/0na/027000c Japan OKs bill to reform sexual offense charge, raise age of consent]</ref> under Western pressure), Brazil and [[Essay:Peru Lowers Its Age Of Consent--My Analysis|Peru]]. The case of Brazil is described at length, in the document, ''Sexuality, the age of consent and the Brazilian law'', which describes among other things, proposals in the 10s, to reduce the age from 14 to 12.<ref>[https://pedrapapeletesoura.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/sexualitytheageofconsentandthebrazilianlaw/ Sexuality, the age of consent and the Brazilian law, by Yure]</ref> India has faced similar calls, based upon the sheer number of adolescents engaged in illegal sexual activity.<ref>[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-63953752 Age of consent: Why is consensual teen sex a crime in India?]</ref>

While the federal age of consent in Mexico is 15, state laws often override federal law, and state ages of consent vary from 12 to 15. The state law of Nayarit specifies that a person must have reached puberty in order to consent with sex. However, the state age of consent is not unrestricted and factors such as age difference and hierarchical subordination of the younger partner may play a role.

The age of consent in the Philippines was 12 until 2022, when it was raised to 16.<ref>[https://www.cnnphilippines.com/news/2022/3/7/Age-of-sexual-consent-Philippines-law.html PH raises age of sexual consent from 12 to 16]. CNN Philippines. March 7, 2022.</ref>

In the late 70s, New Jersey lowered its age of consent to 13, amid sweeping law reforms. It was raised soon after, but only because of public outcry, not any increase in sexual victimization.<ref>[https://www.nytimes.com/1979/08/12/archives/new-jersey-law-changes-reflect-the-new-morality-a-compilation-from.html Waldron in NYT: A Decade in the Making, the State's First Criminal Code Takes Effect Next Month]</ref> A 2018 act reduced the age of consent in Malta, albeit to fall in line with the rest of Europe at 16. The same act also reduced the voting age to 16.<ref>[https://lovinmalta.com/news/local/the-age-of-consent-in-malta-has-been-lowered/ The Age Of Consent In Malta Has Been Lowered - J. Cilia for Lovin Malta]</ref>

===The case of the Netherlands===
Much discussion has been devoted to the age of consent in the Netherlands. According to a law passed in 1989 (after a much longer period of unofficial liberalization<ref>[https://www.greek-love.com/index.php/modern-europe/netherlands/dutch-policemen-understood-pederasty Dutch Policemen who understood pederasty - Brongersma]</ref>), even though the age of consent was set at 16, sex between an adult and a young person between 12 and 16 was not an offence if the young person consented to the contact. Prosecutions for coercive sex could be sought by the young person or his/her parents.

The law which stirred much discussion (see Schuijer 1991, 1993, 1995, Faust 1995) and praised as positive for adolescent sexuality ([[Judith Levine|Levine]] 2002, 89) was later repealed in 2002 by a very rare unanimous vote in the Dutch parliament ([[Gert Hekma|Hekma]] 2004).

===Initiatives to lower the UK Age of Consent===

At around the turn of the century, a [[Youth Perspectives|poll of 12-16 year old British girls suggested that the age should be lowered to 12]]. Activists such as [[Peter Tatchell]] have long sought to lower the age, arguing that this would be more in line with the lived experiences of young people. In 2013, a leading public health official called for a moderate reduction, but leaders only appeared to be amenable to a close in age exemption and not a "blanket reduction". John Ashton advocated the moderate reduction to 15, but was shut out of the public debate.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/puTFEqCBRLcprr9M38ge9W John Ashton, 2013]</ref><ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/17/no-10-rejects-lower-age-consent-sex No 10 rejects call to lower age of consent]</ref>

Earlier (in the 70s and 80s), the British National Council for One Parent Families (image inset) had even advocated for abolition, being [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|joined by various Gay and MAP groups]]. In 1979, close to the peak of liberal attitudes on this topic, even the Home Office argued that the age of consent be lowered from 16 to 14, calling for a dramatic reduction in statutory punishments for consensual sex with girls as young as 12 in an internal research study obtained by the Guardian.<ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/08/lower-age-consent-14-1979-home-office-report Whitehall study wanted age of consent lowered to 14 and sentences for sex cut]</ref>

==Reasons for increasing the Age of Consent==

As explained by [[Wikipedia:Age of consent#History and social attitudes|Wikipedia]], ages of consent were often set around the age of puberty or marriage until the reforms of the 19th and 20th Centuries, and were very much open to interpretation. In postindustrial Victorian England, changing attitudes around the institution of childhood and prologation of education, aided by Christian/Feminist Social Purity campaigners, [[Moral Enterprise|moral entrepreneurs]] and journalists such as W. T. Stead, - led to changes that spread the world over.<ref>W. T. Stead engendered a moral panic in Britain after he paid to have a 13 year old girl drugged and abducted by brothel staff, fabricated a story that the 13 year old girl was raped, and was himself arrested and convicted for the abduction in the process. The ensuing panic resulted in the UK raising the age of sexual consent from 13 to 16, and even when Stead's publicity stunt was exposed, the age of consent was not returned back to 13. See, for example, [https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/oct/16/books.guardianreview Skill for scandal] (''The Guardian'' on W. T. Stead, 1999).</ref>

It is important to note that ages of consent were not initially raised and enforced for the same reasons we presently uphold them:

:''“Sexual consent is now understood by many – although not all – as a marker of when girls (and boys) are ‘allowed’ or likely to have sexual intercourse as much as a signifier of their capacity to consent. For the Victorians, sexual consent was certainly not a recommended or permitted age of sexual activity. The 1885 law on sexual consent meant, to cite the 1908 Royal Commissioners on the Care and Control of the Feeble-Minded, that ‘[t]he power of consenting to unlawful defilement … '''has been taken from girls under sixteen'''’. This wording is significant: the right to consent was ‘taken away’ from girls under the age of consent, rather than given to those above it. Few commentators approved of sexual intercourse outside of marriage, which was expected to occur in the mid-20s rather than at the legal age of marriage (14 for boys and 12 for girls) or age of sexual consent.”''<ref>[https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/the-legacy-of-1885-girls-and-the-age-of-sexual-consent The legacy of 1885: girls and the age of sexual consent, by Victoria Bates]</ref> [our emphasis]

Oftentimes, when opposition to British-style increased age of consent statutes was voiced during the empire's fall, it took the form of an anti-imperialist argument.<ref>[https://sumitamukherjee.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/sarda-act-article-version.pdf Sumita Mukherjee, ‘Using the Legislative Assembly for Social Reform: The Sarda Act 1929’, South Asia Research, 26, 3, (November 2006).] ''There were also political and nationalist concerns for reformers within the Legislative Assembly. In the 1890s, the nationalist leader Bal Gandadhar Tilak had been opposed to the Age of Consent Bill because he did not want India’s advancement to be dependent upon British help. Now that Indians were more involved and represented in the debating chamber, they could argue that their advancement was no longer dependent upon the British.''</ref>

==See also==

*[[Consent]] - Explores the concept and links to specific articles on Newgon.
*[[Debate Guide: Problems with the Age of Consent]]
*[[Mature Minor]]
*[[Age of majority]]

==External links==

*[https://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230.html Age of Consent Laws - Summary article by Stephen Robertson]
*[https://www.scarleteen.com/article/abuse_assault/the_age_of_consent_for_what_exactly The age of consent... for what, exactly?] - Heather Corinna, for ''Scarleteen''.
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform AoC Reform - Wikipedia]
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_by_country The definitive list] - Ages of consent on Wikipedia.
*[https://secure.boychat.org/messages/1607318.htm Reading list - published on BC]
*[http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/wwaoc.htm Worldwide Ages of Consent] - a table presumably dated from around 2012

==References and further reading==
*Baker, C. (1983) [https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1177/144078338301900105 "The Age of Consent Controversy: Age and Gender As Social Practice."] Australian & New Zealand Journal of Sociology 19(1): 96-112.
*[[Michael C. Baurmann|Baurmann, M.]] (2005) "[https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1300/J056v16n02_07 Sexuality, Adolescence and the Criminal Law: The Perspective of Criminology.]" Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 71-88.
*Böllinger, L. (2005) [https://sci-hub.se/10.1300/j056v16n02_08 "Adolescence, Sexual Aggression and the Criminal Law."] Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 89-104.
*[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma, E.]] (1980) [https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article/20/1/20/378071 "The meaning of 'indecency' with respect to moral offences involving children."] British Journal of Criminology 20(1): 20-34.
*[[Edward Brongersma|Brongersma, E.]] (1988) [https://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/brong_88_frame.htm "A Defence of Sexual Liberty for All Age Groups."] Howard Journal of Criminal Justice 27(1): 32-43.
*Brown, M. (1996) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13572339608420468 "The Age of Consent: The Parliamentary Campaign in the UK to Lower the Age of Consent for Homosexual Acts."] Journal of Legislative Studies 2(2): 1-7.
*[[Vern Bullough|Bullough, V. L.]] (2005) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v16n02_03 "Age of Consent: A Historical Overview."] Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 25-42.
*Cocca, C. E. (2004) [https://networks.h-net.org/node/18732/reviews/19007/littauer-cocca-jailbait-politics-statutory-rape-laws-united-states Jailbait: The Politics of Statutory Rape Laws in the United States]. Albany, NY: State University of New York Press.
*Coleman, E. [http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/WAS1.htm Letter to EU President Prodi (2001)]
*Ellis, S. J. and C. Kitzinger (2002) [https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Denying-equality%3A-an-analysis-of-arguments-against-Ellis-Kitzinger/184be7a20082718aa34e4eea37bac3d8232c9e4b "Denying equality: An analysis of arguments against lowering the age of consent for sex between men."] Journal of Community & Applied Social Psychology 12(3): 167-180.
*[[Beatrice_Faust|Faust]], B. (1995) [[Media:(1995) Faust - Child Sexuality and AOC - The Netherlands Model.pdf|"Child sexuality and age of consent laws: The Netherlands model."]] Australasian Gay and Lesbian Law Journal, 5, pp. 78-85.
*[[Helmut_Graupner|Graupner, H.]] (1999) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10482330/ "Love versus abuse: crossgenerational sexual relations of minors: a gay rights issue?"] Journal of Homosexuality 37(4): 23-56.
*[[Helmut_Graupner|Graupner, H.]] (2000) [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1001986103125 "Sexual consent: The criminal law in Europe and overseas."] Archives of Sexual Behavior 29(5): 415-461.
*[[Helmut_Graupner|Graupner, H.]] (2005) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v16n02_02 "The 17-Year-Old Child: An Absurdity of the Late 20th Century."] Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 7-24. (.pdf file)
*[[Gert Hekma|Hekma, G.]] (2004) "Queer: The Dutch case." GLQ: A Journal of Gay and Lesbian Studies 10(2): 276-280.
* [[Erwin Haeberle|Haeberle, E.J.]] (June 27, 2001) [http://www.sexarchive.info/BIB/letterprodi.htm A Dangerous New Definition of Childhood: Letter to the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi]
*Hofmeister, L. (2005) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v16n02_06 "14 to 18 Year Olds as 'Children' by Law? Reflections on Developments in National European Law."] Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 63-70.
*Killias, M. (1990) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v20n01_05 "The Historic Origins of Penal Statutes Concerning Sexual Activities Involving Children and Adolescents."] Journal of Homosexuality 20 (1/2): 41-46.
*[[Terry_Leahy|Leahy]], T. (1996). [https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/sex-and-age-consent-ethical-issues "Sex and the age of consent: the ethical issues."] Social Analysis 39(April): 27-55.
*[[Judith Levine|Levine, J.]] (2002). [http://library.lol/main/4EB3A2F1FB22A7FDB0C327E57D0665E2 Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children From Sex]. Mineapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
*Maplestone, P. and R. Roberts (2002) "Young gay men and the age of consent in New South Wales." Word is Out 3(June): 13-21. (.pdf file)
*Mawby, R. I. (1979) "[https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-1971(79)80005-6 Policing the Age of Consent.]" Journal of Adolescence 2(1): 41-49.
*Powell, D. E. B. (1994) "Homosexuality and Age of Consent." Lancet 343(8898): 674.
*[[Bruce Rind|Rind, B.]], P. Tromovitch & R. Bauserman (2001) "The validity and appropriateness of methods, analyses, and conclusions in Rind et al. (1998): A rebuttal of victimological critique from Ondersma et al. (2001) and Dallam et al. (2001)." Psychological Bulletin 127: 734-758.
*Robertson, S. (2002) "Age of consent law and the making of modern childhood in New York City, 1886-1921." Journal of Social History 35(4): 781-798.
*Thomson, R. (2004) [https://oro.open.ac.uk/6435/ ‘An Adult Thing?’ Young People’s Perspectives on the Heterosexual Age of Consent]. Sexualities, 7(2), 133-149.
*[[Jan Schuijer|Schuijer, J.]] (1991) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v20n01_13 "Tolerance at Arm's Length: The Dutch Experience."] Journal of Homosexuality 20 (1/2): 199-229.
*[[Jan Schuijer|Schuijer, J.]] (1993) "The Netherlands Changes its Age Of Consent Law." Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia 3(1): 13-17.
*[[Jan Schuijer|Schuijer, J.]] (1995) "Recent Legal Developments in the Netherlands." Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia 3(4): 64-71.
*Waites, Matthew. 2005 ''[[The Age of Consent (book)|The Age of Consent]]: Young People, Sexuality and Citizenship'' (2005). Find at [https://archive.org/details/waites-aoc Internet Archive] and [https://annas-archive.org/md5/dbfb9d50125c52d17561f34f4c295fb7 annas-archive], or through [[Help:Research Resources|Research Resources - Information Freedom Companions]] if inaccessible.
*Weber, A. (2001) "Europeanwide Criminalization of Juvenile Sexuality up to 18." EuroLetter 91: 6-8.
*Weis, D. and V. L. Bullough (2005) "Adolescent American Sex." Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality 16(2/3): 43-54.
*Bourne PA, Brown N (2026) [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/403546354_Psychosocial_Implications_of_the_Age_of_Sexual_Consent_Being_16_Years_in_Jamaica_Article_Information_Corresponding_author_Distributed_under_Creative_Commons_CC-BY_40/link/69d3d4463c61894306741d97/download Psychosocial Implications of the Age of Sexual Consent Being 16 Years in Jamaica]. Adv Res Psych & Behav Sci.

==References==

{{reflist}}

[[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: Crime Types]][[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:Youth]]

Moral panic

2026-07-01T15:02:42Z

Prue:

{{template:Adj}}__NOTOC__
:''For consequences of moral panic over "sexual offending", see [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria|Adverse effects of hysteria]].''

'''Moral panic''' refers to a phenomenon in which mainstream society experiences large amounts of fear and uncertainty fuelled by the perception that a particular moral institution (such as [[Childhood Innocence|childhood innocence]]) or group of people (such as [[child]]ren or [[Adolescence|adolescents]]) are under threat. The perceived threat often comes in the form of a socially excluded, alien group of people ([[pedophile]]s or sex offenders) and the ideologies and real life events attributed to them. Necessary to the incitement of moral panic is the persistant exchange of [[misinformation]], by the media for example.

The concept is often used in the British sociological sense to refer to shorter-term events<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic Wikipedia - Moral Panic]</ref>, such as groups of hooligans or mods supposedly inciting flash panics in society, and the resulting authoritarian crackdowns. This (while it was the original usage, by Stanley Cohen), is a highly questionable phenomenon, since it usually relies on [[moral enterprise]] and media/institutional involvement to manufacture consent to "moral panics". Academics such as [[Bill Thompson]] describe the British theory of Moral Panic as a bourgeoise construct of middle-class sociologists who themselves partake in this manufacturing of panic and benefit from it.

"Critical Realist" theorists such as David Pilgrim may argue that CSA does not fulfil the "criteria" of a moral panic on various technical grounds.<ref>[https://sci-hub.se/10.1002/car.2497 Pilgrim, D. (2017). Academic Disputes about Adult-Child Sexual Contact: A Critical Realist Appraisal. Child Abuse Review, 27(3), 171–180.]</ref> Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that childhood innocence/purity discourse and its offshoots have led to a series of rolling panics throughout western society (amplified by moral entrepreneurs in politics, media and the professional sphere), forcing the economic and recreational institutions to react in varying ways. Thus, within an academic context, CSA (as we now know it) is perhaps better described as a moral technology, or a technology of power.

==Timeline==

===The beginnings of (anti)sexual morality===

Controls on sexuality have been used to varying degrees in traditional cultures<ref>[https://books.google.com/books/about/How_Sex_Got_Screwed_Up_The_Ghosts_that_H.html?id=DOVwDwAAQBAJ How Sex Got Screwed Up: The Ghosts that Haunt Our Sexual Pleasure, by Jon Knowles], see also [https://vernonpress.com/book/417 Vernon Press website.]</ref>, but what we now know as Christian sexual morality goes back a lot further than the present era of repeated moral panics, possibly even before the founding of the religion, as revealed in scripture<ref>[https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sexuality Bible Verses about Sexuality - Knowing Jesus]</ref>. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) and other sinful/wasteful/impure indulgences were the target, rather than [[Debate Guide: Religious arguments|intergenerational encounters per se]].

*Some [[Wikipedia:Antisexuality|forms of early ascetic Gnosticism held all matter to be evil]], and that unnecessary gratifications of the physical senses were to be avoided. Married couples were encouraged to be chaste. The Skoptsys were a radical sect of the Russian Orthodox Church that practiced castration and amputation of sexual organs. They believed that Christ had been castrated during his crucifixion, and it was this castration that brought about salvation.

*[[Augustine of Hippo (Saint Augustine)|Augustine of Hippo]] is often held up as an early example of a Puritanical Theologian:

<blockquote>''Sex has always been a thorny problem for Christianity. Since the religion’s early stages, its doctrines have included an antisensual strain—a sense that sexual love is at best a necessary evil ''[...]'' The greatest early champion of that puritanical, antisexual approach was '''St. Augustine''', a monk who lived in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. As Pagels shows, his personal history was extremely important in shaping beliefs that eventually dominated the church’s policies in critical areas. As a young man, Augustine had freely indulged in the sexual licentiousness common during the declining years of the Roman Empire. By his own admission, he was ruled by an insatiable lust. Then, when he converted to Christianity, he became obsessed with triumphing over the temptations of the flesh. He valued [[Virtuous Pedophiles|celibacy]] more than married life and emphasized the essential depravity of the human race. Adam and Eve’s disobedience, Augustine argued, tainted their descendants forever after with what he called “original sin.”''<ref>[https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1988/8/15/of-carnal-knowledge John Bemrose's short review of ''Of carnal knowledge: ADAM, EVE, AND THE SERPENT, By Elaine Pagels''.]</ref></blockquote>

*There are reports of men and boys being burned at the stake by the Church for [[Pederasty|mutually consented sexual activity]] in the '''middle ages''' - a period spanning from 500 AD to roughly 1500. The prohibition appears to have been on homosexuality and sodomitical activity in general.

*In the following Renaissance era, [[Age of Consent|ages of consent]] were soon established - usually 10-12 for girls.

*The late 1600s begin the slow birth of "public opinion" as a monolithic entity - coffee houses and gentlemen's clubs serve as a base for polite society, and mass media proliferates in the form of high circulation newspapers from the 1800s.

*In '''1762''', [[Wikipedia:Emile, or On Education|Emile, or On Education]] by [[Jean-Jacques Rousseau]] is published. The popular idea of childhood innocence pioneered by such romanticists begins to gain traction. The idea of insanity is slowly bought into the realm of medicine during the enlightenment, and sexual deviance is similarly medicalized. Psychiatry (as a medical science) emerges in the '''1800s''', along with official pathologization of [[masturbation]], which had long been regarded as dysfunctional or immoral by learned men.

===The "panic era" from roughly 1880===

[[File:Cycle.png|thumb|400px|Charting the cycles of panic]]Since the Victorian era, mass media/politics, industrialization, globalization and the artificial extension of childhood have all allowed for a series of moral panics concerning the erotic potential of children and minors. We are at the start of a fourth panic, which relates to normalization of sexual and romantic attractions towards minors. We insert titles to identify the rough start and end of different waves of moral panic in the graphic on the right.

====Identification (Child Pro) Panic, and "Paraphilia"====

*'''1857''' - The first Law criminalizing pornography was [[Wikipedia:Obscene Publications Act 1857|Lord Campbell's Act]], in effect, a ban of any material "intended" to corrupt. Lord Campbell was the Chief Justice at the time and justified his ruling, assuring that it was "...intended to apply exclusively to works written for the single purpose of corrupting the morals of youth and of a nature calculated to shock the common feelings of decency in any well-regulated mind."

*'''1868''' - Sir Alexander Cockburn III amended the UK definition of obscenity in appeal to include "...whether the tendency of the matter charged as obscenity is to deprave and corrupt those whose minds are open to such immoral influences and into whose hands a publication of this sort may fall."

*'''1873''' - [[Wikipedia:Comstock laws|Comstock laws]] criminalize US "interstate transport" of "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material. Pornography was effectively outlawed.

*'''1874''' - [[Wikipedia:New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children|New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children]] is founded by Quakers and Moral Crusaders - the world’s first organization devoted entirely to child protection. Ten years later, the [[NSPCC]] is founded in England, and [[Wikipedia:W. T. Stead|W. T. Stead's]] '''1885''' exposé of child prostitution in London, “''The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon'',” boosted the circulation of the Pall Mall Gazette ten times. Stead engenders a moral panic after he paid to have a 13 year old girl drugged and abducted by brothel staff, fabricated a story that the 13 year old girl was raped, and was himself arrested and convicted for the abduction in the process. The ensuing panic resulted in the UK raising the age of sexual consent from 13 to 16, and even when Stead's publicity stunt was exposed, the age of consent was not returned back to 13.<ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/oct/16/books.guardianreview Skill for scandal] (''The Guardian'' on W. T. Stead, 1999).</ref> The protection of girls becomes framed as a women's issue, causing feminist collaborators and the [[Wikipedia:Social purity movement|social purity movement]] to seize upon the panic - working alongside religious organizations such as the Salvation Army and Liberal politicians. The [[Wikipedia:Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885|initial act]] that raised the Age of Consent from 13 to 16 was not so much designed for the protection of all children, but rather to propagate middle class morality to the masses, particularly in relation to girls' virtue. It also criminalized non-anal homosexuality and ramped up measures against sex workers.

*During the same era, [[Homosexuality]] and [[Pedophilia]] are formalized by psychiatrists as medical diagnoses, later going on to be grouped together as [[Wikipedia:Paraphilia#History|"Paraphilias"]] (see also, [[Paraphilia|our position]] on that term). Like the lawmakers, the German psychiatrists who invented these categories<ref>[https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s10508-016-0883-3 Janssen, D. F. (2016). “Chronophilia”: Appreciating 150 Years of Puzzle-Solving. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 46(1), 35–38. ]</ref> did not hide their moralistic motivations, since they as well supported the beating of children who [[Masturbation|self-pleasured]]. While paraphilias did exist as diagnostic categories, they were far from being [[Reification|reified]] as part of the public lexicon. While the girl victim was given copious attention, and thus approached something akin to a concrete identity, there is no consensus that any such thing as the modern-day "pedophile" or its equivalent had entered the popular psyche. Depictions in gothic fiction contributed to perceptions of a monstrous stranger emerging from the shadows - a man of lesser virtue who exists almost entirely outside of middle class society.<ref>[https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/08905495.2021.1897373 Bulfin. (2021). “Monster, give me my child”: how the myth of the paedophile as a monstrous stranger took shape in emerging discourses on child sexual abuse in late nineteenth-century Britain. Nineteenth-Century Contexts, 43(2), 221–245.]</ref>

*Following the yellow journalism panics and UK law reforms, lawmakers begin to raise ages of consent throughout the Anglosphere, including America.

====Pathologization (Molester) Panic====

*'''1920s''' - The media start seizing upon examples of "sexual deviance" among psychopathic criminals, including child murderers. The "sexual psychopath" and uncontrollable molester myth enters the public psyche, but still the "pedophile" is almost unheard of. For the first time, the idea of this problem as a medical-legal one as opposed to a moral or religious one is sold wholesale to the public. Examples include [[Wikipedia:Albert Fish|Albert Fish]], a notorious and unrepentant serial child rapist and cannibal who courted significant publicity for his actions.
*'''1930s-50s''' - De Orio notes "In the 1930s, ’40s, and ’50s, lawmakers enacted new “sexual psychopath” and other sex offender laws in an effort to combat sex crimes of all kinds but especially ones involving children. In practice, those laws gave the police the discretion to enforce them in a discriminatory and disproportionate way against gay men, and furthermore the stereotype of the gay child molester underpinned and served to justify the over-criminalization of even homosexual conduct involving only consenting adults."<ref name=deorio/> In 1930, obscenity law amended to include the overall work instead of out of context sections. This was clarified through two incidents. Mary Ware Dennet was charged with obscenity for a sex education book and James Joyce's Ulysses was stopped at the U.S. border.

*'''1950s''' - [[J. Edgar Hoover]]'s "Stranger Danger" campaigns begin, targeting gays. According to De Orio, the state conflated the category of the male homosexual with the category of the child molester. In the eyes of the state, all homosexuals were potential child molesters, and vice-versa. The notion of the “pedophile,” as distinct from the “homosexual,” was still not prevalent at this time. He adds that police departments cracked down increasingly on men who were involved in sexual activity with teenage boys, some of whom were actually straight hustlers whom the state criminalized as “juvenile delinquents.”<ref name=deorio/> Public information films from this era are a common trope of the gay molester/stranger danger panic, recycled frequently to this very day.<ref>[https://fstube.net/w/3WL9JsYgtDWyfQKxTYygTv Stranger danger public information film]</ref><ref>[https://archive.org/details/boys_beware Boys Beware] ([https://fstube.net/w/v1BKbgyphJ8vJsSHmKgpzH backup])</ref>

*'''1957-62''' - The [[Model Penal Code|Model Penal Code]] in the US and the [[Wikipedia:Wolfenden report|Wolfenden Report]] in Britain advocate for the decriminalization of adult homosexuality. From this point on, the concepts of homosexuality and child molestation slowly begin to be defined as separate categories. Prior to the decriminalization of homosexuality, gays and pederasts were treated under the same legal schemes, with arguably some police departments allocating more resources to pursuing "deviant" non-pederastic homosexuals. A 1964 video calmly relays contemporary (mis)conceptions of the "child molester".<ref>[https://archive.org/details/0424_Child_Molester_The_01_00_05_00 "The Child Molester." (Highway safety Films). Emphasizes the danger of attacks on children, dramatizing typical approaches. Shows what can be done to reduce the problem by making children aware of it and ready to take precautions when accosted by strangers.]</ref> In 1957, Roth v. United States established that obscenity was not protected by the First Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. Justice William Brennan declared all forms of pornography as "prurient" and without social value.

*'''1960s<ref>[https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/07/the-chickens-and-the-bulls-the-rise-and-incredible-fall-of-a-vicious-extortion-ring-that-preyed-on-prominent-gay-men-in-the-1960s.html Late 1960s - Slate.com]</ref>''' - For a long time, the mob had run extortion schemes against prominent pederasts and gays, however, the 60s were a time of relative latency in the war against sex offenders. Gay liberation and homophile activists were joined by sexual freedom activists, and progress began to be made with law reforms.<ref name=deorio/> The decade ends with the Stonewall Riots, an event after which the [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|Gay Movement frequently allied with pederasts and youth libs]].

*'''1962-69''' - The "discovery" of [[Wikipedia:Child abuse#History|Battered Child Syndrome]] introduces the idea of child abuse as a widespread phenomenon as opposed to a one-off act.<ref>[https://academic.oup.com/shm/article/28/4/767/2510436?login=false ‘The bones tell a story the child is too young or too frightened to tell’: The Battered Child Syndrome in Post-war Britain and America]</ref> For the first time, society as a whole is pathologized, heralding a new era of problematization (the next wave of the panic).

====Problematization (CSA) Panic====
[[File:Robinlloyd.jpg|thumb|Robin Lloyd's 1978 expose of American Boy Prostitution]]
*'''April 1971''' – Florence Rush presents her ground-breaking: “The Sexual Abuse of Children: A Feminist Point of View” about childhood sexual abuse and incest, at the New York Radical Feminists Rape Conference. Focus is on sexual violence against female children within the family, seen as a pervasive, if not universal factor in socializing females to accept subservient & submissive role in society. Sexual violence is reframed as an inherently political, women’s issue.

*'''1973''' - [[Wikipedia:Sybil (Schreiber book)|''Sybil'']] (1973) by Flora Rheta Schreiber told the “true story” of a woman suffering from multiple personality disorder (now known as dissociative identity disorder) and the psychoanalyst, Cornelia B. Wilbur, who “cures” her. It is now widely derided as deceptive and sensational, but was a bestseller and arguably pivotal in initiating the panics that were to come.

*'''1973''' – Revelations that dozens of teenage boys had been tortured, raped, murdered and secretly buried by serial killer Dean Corll. Rumors that the boys had been involved in prostitution and/or pornography are encouraged by Police leadership, blaming victim “lifestyle” for the tragedy to offset parent’s revelations that police had refused to investigate the disappearance of the early victims. No verification of lifestyle claims from any family members or friends of the deceased. Boy prostitution and pornography operations are later uncovered in California, the [[Lyric International|DOM-LYRIC]] case (police attempt to link it to the previous case). In Houston, the Roy Ames case, 1973-75, again unrelated. In '''1974''', The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) passed in the U.S.

*'''1975''' – Dr [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]] publishes ''“Incest as a causative factor in anti-social behavior: An exploratory study”'' in Contemporary Drug Problems. Establishes incest of female children as a public health issue linked to drug addiction and prostitution. In the same year, family members of children living in Christian Brothers run orphanage in Newfoundland Canada, supported by a concerned community employee, attempt to reveal the long history of physical and sexual abuse of the boys by the staff, which is ongoing. The whistle is blown over local radio, inciting police investigation but is quashed by collusion of prominent Catholics. Efforts continue however, over the next decade.

*'''1974–76''' – Pederast network shut down by police investigation and successful prosecution of several principle conspirators, revealed in three linked cases: the New Orleans Boy Scout troop (Halvorsen), the Tennessee Boy’s Farm (Vermylie) and Brother Paul’s Christian Mission – Michigan (Gerald Richards). Dozens of boys aged 10-19 years linked with multiple men in prostitution and pornography operations over the previous 5 years. Perpetrators ran charities providing services to “wayward” or delinquent boys previously identified as juvenile prostitutes, including short and long term crisis housing. Images of the victims published as pornography.
[[File:Bryant.jpg|thumb|Anita Bryant is the archetypal conservative problematizer, but was joined by lesbian feminists. Her threat was designed to shame mainstream gays into submission]]
*'''1977–79''' – Densen-Gerber and Det. [[Lloyd Martin]] (LAPD) aggressively lobby state and federal legislators for new laws effectively banning and criminalizing possession or sale of [[child pornography]]. Heavy print media coverage of these issues, multiple hearings with testimony from various social sciences experts, incarcerated perpetrators, models. Victimization of children in state or private custody of various kinds is a secondary focus. In '''1978''', John Wayne Gacy confessed to police that since 1972, he had sexually assaulted, tortured and murdered approximately 25 to 30 teenage males, whom he falsely claimed were all runaways or male prostitutes, burying many of them in a crawlspace under his home. In '''1979''', Jonathan Gathorne-Hardy publishes “The Public School Phenomenon” in the UK, documenting a long history & culture of relationships between older and younger students, as well as violence perpetrated on residents by other residents and staff.

*'''1977''' - [[Anita Bryant]] launches her divisive [[Wikipedia:Save Our Children|Save Our Children]] campaign, splitting the gay movement against the pederasts. While some radical voices argued for age inclusivity, the dominant faction saw that as a recipe for disaster and (foreshadowing the gay marriage movement) tried to minimize the differences between gay culture and heteronormativity, assimilating itself first to the latter's stigmatization of youth sexuality as deviant and harmful and later to its stigmatization of all sex outside of marriage (or, at least, of a monogamous relationship). "Consenting Adults" became the slogan for gay [[assimilationism]].<ref>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Our_Children Save Our Children]</ref><ref name=deorio>[https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/138757/sadeorio_1.pdf Scott De Orio]</ref> By '''1978''', Bryant's campaign falters as an attempt to ban gay teachers is defeated in California. De Orio notes "In response to the decreasing popularity of “the homosexual” as a demonic figure, law enforcement officials such as the LAPD detective [[Lloyd Martin]] refocused their energies on demonizing the “pedophile.” By focusing less on homosexuality per se and more on other, less sympathetic deviant subjects, who remained outside the boundaries of identity politics, conservatives managed to pursue a law-and-order agenda with respect to sex crimes unhindered by resistance from gay and progressive activists."<ref name=deorio/> In '''1978''', [[NAMBLA]] is set up, in response to an anti-gay anti-youth and anti-pederast witch-hunt in Revere, Massachusetts.

*'''1978-1980''' - [[Wikipedia:Jacqueline Livingston|Jacqueline Livingston]] targeted and surveilled by the [[American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children]] and FBI for nude photography of her son and other male nudes. She is remembered as one of the first victims of the newly introduced [[Child Pornography|child pornography]] laws, but was never convicted.

*'''1979''' - The highly influential [[David Finkelhor]]'s first book, ''Sexually Victimized Children'' is published, going on to shape policy and practise.

*'''1980''' – [[Wikipedia:Lawrence Pazder|Lawrence Pazder]] publishes ''[[Michelle Remembers]]'', inventing the terminology and concepts of [[Wikipedia:Satanic panic|Satanic Ritual Abuse]]/Ritual Abuse/Ritualized Abuse. Pazder attempts to have Michelle Smith declared a living saint by the Vatican. Throughout the 1980s, "pedophilia" and the "pedophile" enters the wider public lexicon, a trend that intensifies in the following decades.

*'''1982-86''' - [[Wikipedia:Disappearance of Johnny Gosch|Johnny Gosch]] and a succession of other Des Moines teenage boys go missing over the following years. Speculation is rife as to organized "pedophile" conspiracy.

*'''1983''' – The first adult women claiming to be survivors of SRA are being evaluated and studied by psychiatric staff in California. Allegations are of long term sadistic abuse by satanic family cult members, with supernatural elements and frequent diagnosis of the previously rare Multiple Personality Disorder, and as in previous cases, are pumped by a political alliance of right and left.<ref>[https://medium.com/the-radical-center/when-sex-hysteria-was-left-wing-13153ec25861 Medium: When Sex Hysteria was Left Wing]</ref> By '''1985''', media coverage of CSA issues is entirely focused on women’s allegations of satanic cult abuse and mind control in childhood, or large-scale daycare abuse accusation cases with allegations by some parents that children have revealed SRA victimization. Child protection resources are also dominated by cases of this nature, as are police child sex crime investigation resources, and psychiatric treatment/therapy services for women and child sexual abuse victims. In the mid-80s, the "abuse survivor" concept is born as an identity; a segment of society that is commercially targeted by therapists.

*'''1984''' - [[Wikipedia:Traci Lords|Traci Lords]] makes her first adult film, ''"What Gets Me Hot."'' She made over 20 movies and numerous magazine appearances, including the famous Penthouse that also featured Vanessa Williams. She was arrested with the owners of X-citement Video. All charges were dropped. The identification she used was a U.S. Passport with the name of Traci Lords, so the owners were not liable and as a minor, Traci was not accountable.

*'''1986''' - [[Wikipedia:Meese Report|Meese Report]] is published in the U.S. The report is the result of a comprehensive investigation into pornography ordered by U.S. President Ronald Reagan, and in 1,960 pages, establishes the harmfulness of pornography by way of fabrication, suggestion and conjecture.

*'''1988''' - The million plus best-seller ''[[Courage To Heal]]'' is published by Laura Bass and Ellen Davis. Abuse survivor self-help takes off as a genre. ''"The long term effects of child sexual abuse can be so pervasive that it’s sometimes hard to pinpoint exactly how the abuse affected you. It permeates everything: your sense of self, your intimate relationships, your sexuality, your parenting, your work life, even your sanity. Everywhere you look, you see its effects."''

* In the '''late 80s and early 90s''', a number of photography controversies rocked the American intelligentsia as [[Child Pornography]] laws continued to be tightened. Cincinnati Contemporary Arts Center director Dennis Barrie is charged with violating obscenity laws for presenting "[[Wikipedia:The Perfect Moment|Robert Mapplethorpe: The Perfect Moment]]." He is acquitted by a jury. FBI and local police break into San Francisco photographer [[Wikipedia:Jock Sturges|Jock Sturges]]'s home to investigate a photo-lab tip that Sturges is a child pornographer. Ten months after confiscating most of his possessions, and destroying some of his film stock and records, charges had still not been filed. Reflecting on these high-profile cases, academic Laura Marks (1990) argued that "A moral panic over the production of child pornography has swept the United States."<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1525/aft.1990.18.4.12 Laura U. Marks, Minor Infractions: Child Pornography and the Legislation of Morality. ''Afterimage'' (1 November, 1990); 18:(4), pp. 12–14].</ref> [[Wikipedia:Sally Mann|Sally Mann]] is another example of a photographer who faced similar controversy in the 90s.

*'''1990s''' - U.S. passes [[Wikipedia:Megan's Law|Megan's Law]], among other domestic initiatives, while pursuing ever more imperialist sex, drugs and trafficking initiatives abroad. [[Wikipedia:Sexually violent predator laws|Sexually Violent Predator (SVP) laws]] are passed, allowing indeterminate incarceration. In conjunction with the implementation of Megan's law requirements at the state level, various programs for monitoring and treatment of paroled sex offenders are also implemented. The "treatment" regimens often include untested "therapies" featuring inducement of self hatred and extreme sex negativity. Many such programs have proven ineffective following empirical investigation. Gender neutrality becomes an agenda in the law, and previous theories of CSA must now be applied with equal vigor to boys. Popular personalities such as [[Andrew Vachss]] signpost the turning point for the homophobic American Male psyche - time to pick a new bogeyman - the Sexual Predator, or "Pedophile". The LGBT/Gay Movement [[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity|ousts pederasts after having made considerable gains]].

*'''1996''' - [[Wikipedia:Amber alert|AMBER alerts]] & milk-carton campaigns begin, displaying the faces of missing children.

*'''1998''' - [[Rind et al]] controversy shakes academia and draws official congressional condemnation 2 years later. Much like the discovery of child abuse in the 60s heralded the later ''problematization'' panic, Rind is an early example of the ''normalization'' discourse that was to take on a life of its own two decades later.

*'''2004''' - Sadistic killer [[Wikipedia:Marc Dutroux|Marc Dutroux]] (arrested in 1996) is convicted. The attention given to his case has already unleashed a wave of "pedophile" panic throughout Europe. [[Wikipedia:To Catch a Predator|To Catch a Predator]] debuts on NBC, televising the entrapment (by vigilantes and law enforcement) of men who seek sexual relations with minors, and breaking new boundaries in entertainment. It would run until 2007, when [[Louis Conradt]] shot himself dead as a television crew descended upon his house.

*'''2006''' - Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act passed in U.S. Towards the end of the decade and early 10s, [[Minor Attracted People]] regroup online as a "movement" after the setbacks of the 90s, but this is a long, drawn-out process with many false starts.

*'''2007-2016''' - This was a period of relative calm, representing a slight relief in the news cycle as the problematization that commenced in the mid-70s belatedly burned out. Arrests and convictions for sexual offenses began a downward trend that continues in the 2020s. Media attention shifted to institutional forms of abuse, celebrity abuse scandals and generalized trends such as human trafficking, and later, right-wing conspiracy theories and the #MeToo movement. A small note concerns the emergence of the "Male Survivor" in institutional/community settings such as [[Wikipedia:United Kingdom football sexual abuse scandal|English Association Football]]. In the 10s, two separate media trends emerge in defiance of moral panic: the [[Virtuous Pedophiles|"Virtuous Pedophile"]] and the [[Wikipedia:Free-range parenting|"free range parent"]], both being characterized as the product of laissez-faire social liberalism as opposed to critical self-awareness. The stage is set for the political polarization of this topic, helping to enable the subsequent "normalization" discourse. In 2011, the U.S. passes a law to require all ISPs to log any and all internet traffic and hold up to 1 year for police use (Protecting Children From Internet Pornographers Act of 2011).

====Normalization (MAP) Panic====

*'''2016-present''' - Pedophile panic re-emerges in the conspiracy-fuelled culture wars of the Trump era. [[Wikipedia:QAnon|Q-Anon]] and [[Wikipedia:Pizzagate conspiracy theory|Pizzagate]] make bizarre claims of coded pedophile language and elite pedophilia running all the way to the very top of society. [[Wikipedia:Jeffrey Epstein|Jeffrey Epstein]] is seemingly the poster-boy for this brand of elite debauchery. In 2018, a new wave of social media hysteria focusing on the "normalization of pedophilia" begins with the founding of [[Prostasia Foundation]]. Various controversies in academia follow, FOX News and the right wing media/influencers start identifying liberal trends in education and [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors|trans-inclusivity]], accusing Disney among others of "[[grooming]]" children for [[degeneracy]]. In particular, we counted at least 14 [[MAPocalypse|such controversies]] in 2021 and 2022, including Noah Berlatsky ([[Prostasia Foundation|Prostasia]]), [[San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus|SFGMC]], [[Allyn Walker]], [[Karl Andersson]], Miranda Galbreath, [[Minor Attracted Person|Amber Parker/Franklin High School]], [[Jacob Breslow]], and Police Scotland/European Union<ref>[https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/world-news/minor-attracted-person-scandal-inside-28858264 Scottish Daily Express scandal re. EU, Police Scotland using "Minor Attracted Person"]</ref>.
*'''2020s''' - Attention is given by liberals to the "disturbing" rise of pedophile hunting as entertainment on a commercial scale via social media influencers, with levels of violence way beyond that condoned by network pioneers such as Chris Hansen, associated with ''[[To Catch a Predator]]''. The New York Times carries out an investigation<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20250327140547/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/26/us/pedophile-hunting-violence.html Online ‘Pedophile Hunters’ Are Growing More Violent — and Going Viral - NYT]</ref> into the activities of these many groups, after some were not correctly prosecuted. Influencers intersect tellingly with right-wing conspiracy theorists heavily invested in the normalisation/grooming narratives. Many of these vigilantes and conspiracy theorists [[Anti|go on to be convicted]] for sex crimes involving children. By 2025, Trump himself is dragged into the Epstein saga, floated for so long by his followers, and has to downplay its importance.

*'''Going forward''' - The stages of moral panic summarized in the graphic on the right are an expansive analogy for how people come to terms with social "issues" in general. At the start, we are told "this is the issue" - the problem is ''identified'' and acknowledged. In the middle, we are told why we urgently have to act and who is the scapegoat (''pathologization''). Then within decades, the discourse evolves, and we learn that such people are not of one single type, and are "among us" (''problematization''). At the end, the problem becomes so widely manifest, that we have to accept it as part of us. This is ''normalization''. A later, fifth-phase might then be described as "ascendancy", following on from the rotating panics. Here, the formerly ostracized groups are gentrified, and begin to win social recognition as well as further legal reforms.

==Quotes on moral panic==

Don Pierce, a Sex offender GPS tracking expert on the possibility of surgically implanted GPS for sex offenders:

:''"One of the things we want to make sure that we don’t do is something that feels good or looks good or causes the public to relax."''<ref>From dead local news article: '''king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_011409WAB-surgically-implanted-gps-TP.28c9413.html'''</ref>

==Reading list==

*[[Moral Panic (book)|Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America]] [https://en.ua1lib.org/book/13428246/825aac (en.ua1lib.org)], [https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/books/jenkins.htm (on Ipce)], [https://ebin.pub/moral-panic-changing-concepts-of-the-child-molester-in-modern-america-9780300109634-9780300148534-0300148534.html (on Ebin)], [https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=AF4CFCC53779EC94D7F746B6266B7C02 (on Libgen)] - 1998 treatment by historian, [[Wikipedia:Philip Jenkins|Philip Jenkins]].
*[https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/138757/sadeorio_1.pdf Punishing Queer Sexuality in the Age of LGBT Rights] - Scott De Orio's 2017 dissertation.
*[https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/1908506 Freedman, E. B. (1987). “Uncontrolled Desires”: The Response to the Sexual Psychopath, 1920-1960] - Of particular relevance to the second panic.
*[https://www.boychat.org/messages/1612361.htm Architects of Oppression] - 3 part series covering the time period from roughly the 2nd panic onwards.
* Haeberle, Erwin J. (1977) [https://www.ipce.info/library/web-article/historical-roots-sexual-oppression "Historical Roots of Sexual Oppression"]. First published in: The Sexually Oppressed, Harvey L. Gochros and Jean S. Gochros (eds.), Association Press, New York, 1977, pp. 3-27
* [[Patrick Califia]]. [https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm "Feminism, Pedophilia, and Children's Rights"]. in: [[Paidika]], 1991; & in: [http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/art_ess_c.htm Public sex: The Culture of Radical Sex], 1994
* [[Patrick Califia]]. [https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_aoc_frame.htm "The Age of Consent: The Great Kiddy-Porn Panic of '77"]. In: [http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/art_ess_c.htm Public sex: The Culture of Radical Sex], 1994
* [[Sex Panic and the Punitive State]] by Roger N. Lancaster, 2011
* Arnold Hunt (1997) [https://web.archive.org/web/20130420132144/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/'Moral%20Panic'%20and%20Moral%20Language%20in%20the%20Media.pdf 'Moral Panic' and Moral Language in the Media] ''The British Journal of Sociology'', Vol. 48, No. 4, pp. 629-648 - This article surveys the evolution and changing meanings of the term 'moral panic' from its inception in 1972 to the present.
*Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes, [https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/09540253.2012.666232 "Sexuality, youth and the perils of endangered innocence: how history can help us get past the panic"], in ''Gender and Education'', 24(3) (2012), 269–284.
*Jay Daniel Thompson. (2019). [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14681811.2018.1475284 Predatory schools and student non-lives: A discourse analysis of the Safe Schools Coalition Australia controversy], ''Sex Education'', Volume 19; Issue 1, pp. 41-53.
*Catherine Lee. (2023). [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/08920206211016453 Inclusive relationships, sex and health education: Why the moral panic?], ''Management in Education'', Vol. 37(2) 107–112.
*Tig Slater. (2024). [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/00380261231167747 Mundanity, fascination and threat: Interrogating responses to publicly engaged research in toilet, trans and disability studies amid a ‘culture war’], ''The Sociological Review'', Vol. 72(3), 511–528.
* [[Monstrous Crimes and the Failure of Forensic Psychiatry]] - a 2013 non-fiction book by [[John Douard]] and [[Pamela Schultz|Pamela D. Schultz]]
* [[Moral Panics over Contemporary Children and Youth]] (ed. Charles Krinsky, 2016)
* [https://annas-archive.org/md5/1d428c2369c13437c7ced5ccaba40a41 The Ashgate Research Companion to Moral Panics] (edited by Charles Krinsky, 2013)- a comprehensive assemblage of cutting-edge critical and theoretical perspectives on the concept of moral panic.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:Child Advocacy]][[Category:Prostitution]][[Category:Sociological Theory]][[Category:Child Pornography]][[Category:Anti-Pedophile culture]][[Category:Hysteria]][[Category:Religion]][[Category:TV & Media]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: Academic]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:History & Events]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]][[Category:History & Events: 1990s]][[Category:History & Events: 2000s]][[Category:History & Events: 2010s]][[Category:History & Events: 2020s]][[Category:History & Events: Real Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: Corruption]]

Peter Bremner

2026-07-01T13:35:57Z

Prue:

[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to PIE Chairman Steven Adrian Smith (left), for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]
Dr. '''David Peter Bremner''' (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE's) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University.

Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the ''Daily Express'' (1984) described Bremner as a "doctor of philosophy,"<ref>Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (''Daily Express'', 15th November 1984).</ref> he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.

Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O'Carroll as PIE's representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC's ''Newsnight'' TV programme. As recalled by O'Carroll:

<blockquote>''He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.''<ref name="Eulogy">Tom O'Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.</ref></blockquote>

Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal ''Minor Problems''. He served on the journal's editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need...

Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE's prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.<ref name="Smith">Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 "PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,"] in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].</ref> [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984:

<blockquote>''There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O'Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.''

''The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.''<ref name="Smith" /></blockquote>

==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner's Case==

In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine ''Contact'', dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an "indecent article" (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent ("Mr. Oxley"), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.<ref name="Fox">[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.</ref>

On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a "tendency [...] to corrupt" in court. It was accepted in court that "he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it."<ref name="Fox" /> "He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law," but as Bremner ultimately "held the post office box number of P.I.E.," he "was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation."<ref name="Fox" />

He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...

It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine ''Minor Problems'', which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn's Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.<ref>See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).</ref> Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner's life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O'Carroll]] relaying some details.<ref name="htoc">[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O'Carroll's first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed ''A Tale of Two Activists'']</ref>

==Later years and Death==

O'Carroll wrote:

<blockquote>''Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the great march in 2003 against the Iraq war.''<ref name="Eulogy" /></blockquote>

After what O'Carroll characterized as "outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry," Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O'Carroll's words, "complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped."<ref name="Eulogy" /> In later life, however, Peter "beat the demon drink" (O'Carroll). This marked the start of "a personal renaissance," with his final years being "remarkably happy and contented."

<blockquote>''He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.''</blockquote>

He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, "such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end." "He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home," wrote O'Carroll, "and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April."<ref name="Eulogy" /> On his personal blog, O'Carroll wrote,

<blockquote>''I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.''<ref name="htoc" /></blockquote>

Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79, after being ill for some years with cancer of the liver.

==References==

[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]

Peter Bremner

2026-07-01T13:34:44Z

Prue:

[[File:BBC-PIE.png|thumb|Bremner (right) sits next to fellow PIE member, Steven Adrian Smith for an interview with BBC Newsnight (credit BBC)]]
Dr. '''David Peter Bremner''' (September 1939 - June 2019, age 79) was founder of the [[Paedophile Information Exchange]] (PIE's) East London local group, and a member of the Executive Committee, which he joined in 1977. He was born in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, the son of a Scottish engineer and his wife. He enjoyed a pleasant, untroubled childhood in the security of this stable middle class family. When the family returned to Britain he had a good education, first at Stockport Grammar School and then Edinburgh University.

Sometimes referred to in the press as David Bremner, or identified by his old activist pseudonym Roger Nash, he was known to his friends as Peter. While the British newspaper the ''Daily Express'' (1984) described Bremner as a "doctor of philosophy,"<ref>Tony Dawe, [https://spotlightonabuse.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/1984-pie-trial-was-rigged-by-the-defence-barristers/ Child-sex men fear jail revenge] (''Daily Express'', 15th November 1984).</ref> he was in-fact a doctor of biochemistry. Having undertaken a biochemistry PhD at London University, Peter embarked on a career as a research biochemist. His career saw him working in London hospitals including the St Helier, at Rosehill, Sutton, and the Homerton Hospital, Hackney, which is where he passed away in 2019.

Bremner was a close friend and supporter of many veteran PIE members and associates, including PIE Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]. Bremner succeeded O'Carroll as PIE's representative on the gay rights committee of the [[Nettie_Pollard|National Council for Civil Liberties]], now known as [[Harriet_Harman|Liberty]]. He appeared with the final Chair of PIE [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], on the BBC's ''Newsnight'' TV programme. As recalled by O'Carroll:

<blockquote>''He was not a confident or practised public speaker. But in 1983 he had the guts to go on Newsnight to talk straight to camera, without silhouetting or disguise, to challenge the most powerful taboo in modern society.''<ref name="Eulogy">Tom O'Carroll, Eulogy: David Peter Bremner (1939-2019), unpublished.</ref></blockquote>

Peter was also deeply involved, in the 1980s, with producing the youth rights journal ''Minor Problems''. He served on the journal's editorial collective, and was extremely generous in his support for the principal writer when they faced a time of personal need...

Bremner helped set up and operate a scheme for supporting prisoners by sending them books. Like its American counterpart [[NAMBLA]], PIE's prisoner support scheme found correspondents for inmates, sought sponsors to cover the expenses of their membership, and mailed them recommended books and items from the press service.<ref name="Smith">Steven Adrian Smith, [https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/pie-1980-until-its-demise-1985 "PIE, from 1980 Until its Demise in 1985,"] in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergeneratioal Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London, 1986). [IPCE Link - External link].</ref> [https://heretictoc.com/2021/02/14/the-cruel-martyrdom-of-steven-freeman/ PIE Chairman Steve Smith (later Steve Freeman)], wrote in 1984:

<blockquote>''There had been several major stories on PIE since Tom O'Carroll was convicted, each of which had repercussions far beyond the immediate distress inflicted on the committee members named, and illustrate well the harm which the gutter press can cause.''

''The first of these stories (NOTW, March 22nd., 1981) was occasioned by PIE having to open a new post Office box, the sponsor of our previous box, David Grove, having died. The Post Office leaked the home address of our new sponsor, Peter Bremner, to the NOTW so fast that the reporters were at his door before the box had even been used, and before the Executive Committee itself, let alone our members, knew where the P.O. Box was located.''<ref name="Smith" /></blockquote>

==The Trial and End of PIE: Peter Bremner's Case==

In 1984, at 45-years-old, Peter Bremner stood trial at the Old Bailey alongside PIE member [[David Joy]]. They were charged with offences relating to the 6th Issue of the PIE magazine ''Contact'', dated July 1982. Bremner was charged with sending an "indecent article" (i.e. piece of writing) to an undercover agent ("Mr. Oxley"), which he did not believe to be illegal under UK law.<ref name="Fox">[https://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/bremner-and-joy-1984-dec-1984-court-of-appeal-pie/ Bremner and Joy Court of Appeal] - Wordpress blog.</ref>

On 17th May 1983, police officers interviewed Bremner. In a subsequent trial lasting 6 days, the unnamed article at issue is described as a piece that had been translated by Joy, and judged as having a "tendency [...] to corrupt" in court. It was accepted in court that "he [Bremner] did not know that obscenity would be contained in it."<ref name="Fox" /> "He told Mr. Oxley that he wished the magazine to be within the law," but as Bremner ultimately "held the post office box number of P.I.E.," he "was therefore [judged as] certainly responsible for its in-coming mail, [as] he was also a member of the executive which were together responsible for for all that emanated from that organisation."<ref name="Fox" />

He was jailed for six months, for an infraction of the now defunct Post Office Act. He was acquitted of more serious charges. At the time, he had one previous court appearance - in 1978 - for three charges of indecent assault on three separate boys, for which he was given suspended sentences. He never appeared before a court again...

It has been claimed online that Bremner edited PIE magazine ''Minor Problems'', which was stocked and sold in Ian Campbell Dunn's Edinburgh bookshop, Lavender Menace. Whilst the first claim is true and the second plausible, we are unable to verify the latter claim.<ref>See [https://www.conservapedia.com/Ian_Campbell_Dunn Ian Campbell Dunn] (Conservapedia profile).</ref> Other than his attendance at [[Ipce]] meetings, and passion for [[Wikipedia:Egyptology|Egyptology]], little is known about Bremner's life after PIE disbanded and after he was released from prison, with [[Thomas O'Carroll]] relaying some details.<ref name="htoc">[https://heretictoc.com/2019/07/07/are-we-making-useful-idiots-of-ourselves/ O'Carroll's first (shortened obit for Bremner), 2019 - Sub-headed ''A Tale of Two Activists'']</ref>

==Later years and Death==

O'Carroll wrote:

<blockquote>''Not just likeable, but also admirable, was Peter’s openness and generosity towards those of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, dating back many decades to when this was far less fashionable among the white majority than it is now in multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain. This might have owed something to the fact that his first culture was Latin American and the language of his first acquaintances was Spanish. At all events, he became a life-long [[Communism|internationalist and a socialist]] of the more peace-loving sort – as exemplified by his attendance, along with others here today, on the great march in 2003 against the Iraq war.''<ref name="Eulogy" /></blockquote>

After what O'Carroll characterized as "outrageously vicious media attacks, hostility in prison and in his neighbourhood, and the loss of his career in clinical biochemistry," Peter succumbed to alcoholism for many years. This brought on cirrhosis of the liver, and in O'Carroll's words, "complicated his condition when he contracted cancer of the liver. It meant that an operation would not have helped."<ref name="Eulogy" /> In later life, however, Peter "beat the demon drink" (O'Carroll). This marked the start of "a personal renaissance," with his final years being "remarkably happy and contented."

<blockquote>''He began to take a lively interest in history, especially that of Ancient Egypt. He learned hieroglyphics, became a Friend of the British Museum and went on several tours of Egypt. As a serious student of Egyptology, he was even accorded the unusual privilege of being allowed into the innermost chambers deep inside the Great Pyramid of Giza.''</blockquote>

He became well versed in the interpretation of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Peter was known as both highly intelligent and fiercely independent, "such that he was determined to struggle on at home, in his own flat, doing his own shopping and even gardening, until very near the end." "He thus entirely avoided being stuck in a care home," wrote O'Carroll, "and was even able to join a group of friends for an evening at the National Theatre as recently as April."<ref name="Eulogy" /> On his personal blog, O'Carroll wrote,

<blockquote>''I used to stay at his flat whenever I was in London and we spent many happy hours in agreeable conversation. He will be sorely missed, especially by me and other PIE veterans.''<ref name="htoc" /></blockquote>

Peter Bremner died in June 2019 at the age of 79, after being ill for some years with cancer of the liver.

==References==

[[Category:People: Academics]][[Category:History & Events: British]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:People: Deceased]][[Category:People: British]]

Testimony: CSA (Children's Sexual Advances)

2026-07-01T02:42:46Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}Here follows a few examples of the younger partner (child or older minor) making sexual overtures. These are a selected few accounts, and do not represent all such accounts in the project, of which many more (both from boys and girls) show initiative and/or seeking the contact.

*'''Bruce Rind gives a number of accounts of minor-adult sex initiated by the minor in a [http://www.ipce.info/library_2/rind/rind_gay_boys_app.htm 2001 study] ("Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys' Sexual Experiences With Men"):'''

::Between a boy of 12 and a man of 22:

<blockquote>
''It lasted 9 months with his science teacher. "It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren't home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn't a teacher at my school no more."''
</blockquote>

::Between a boy of 12 and a man of 25:

<blockquote>
''The man was a family friend; the sex was mutually initiated, oral, off and on for 10 years (a couple of times per month), and "physically great." It confused the subject that the man was married, yet was willing to have sex with him. "Eventually I fell in love with him; knew I was gay but did not broadcast this; I was curious because of the age difference. Mutual oral sex happened after he fondled me; it was the first orgasm I ever had."''
</blockquote>

::Between a boy of 13 and a man of 38:

<blockquote>
''"Family friend. I initiated on a camping trip; we were in same tent at state park; oral sex to orgasm for both of us; several times during the night; incredibly erotic, tremendous release, very pleasurable. Not real close; didn't enjoy kissing. Afterwards scary because I enjoyed it so much. Not wanting to be near him on the trip because afraid others would notice. Once per month for the next 4 years that I initiated; never talked about it; sex was all it was. Wished I was straight so the attractions would go away, because the sexual gratification was so strong."''
</blockquote>

*'''In his book [http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality], Floyd Martinson cites three cases from [[Wikipedia:Larry Constantine|Larry Constantine]], of children making sexual advances towards a parent:'''

<blockquote>
''Alice was disturbed by her mother's agitation and breathing during intercourse. She otherwise seemed happy with being with her parents as they made love. Her mother explained the whole thing very carefully one day. Her daughter then said, "I want to make love with you, Mommy." At first her mother didn't know what to do and then decided to go along as long as her daughter seemed okay. She put her hand on her daughter's genitals and suggested Alice put hers on top, showing her mother how it felt best. Her daughter started moving rhythmically and breathing heavily, exactly as she had seen her mother do. Her motion and breathing gradually built up to a climax and she relaxed. Whether she actually reached orgasm or mimicked it is uncertain. She was happy and thanked her mother. (Constantine).''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Barb, at five, appeared to be completely comfortable being present when her parents made love. Her parents were casual about sensual interactions with their children. One day Barb asked, "Dad, can I have a 'love-in' with you?" "Well, maybe when you're older, if you still want to we can talk about it." It was an honest reply, not a put-off, and satisfied her. She continued to have interest in erotic involvement with her father with no apparent anxieties on the part of either daughter or father. (Constantine).''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Dianna [age 2]: "Daddy, would you kiss my clitoris?" Casually, Daddy says, "Sure." Bends over and gives her a light smack. Dianna: "No, do it long like you do to Mommy." The father reports he thought briefly about it and decided there was no harm in it. Dianna enjoyed it and later asked for a repeat performance. (Constantine).''
</blockquote>

*'''Bruce Rind, ''Blinded by Politics and Morality'', in ''[https://archive.org/details/censoringsexresearch/page/n3/mode/2up Censoring Sex Research]'', edited by Hubbard and Verstraete 2013, pp. 291-292. Recalls the experience of [[Clarence_Tripp|Clarence A. Tripp]], Ph. D. (1919 - May 17, 2003), a psychologist, photographer, therapist, writer, gay activist, and researcher for Dr. [[Alfred_Kinsey|Alfred Kinsey]]''':

<blockquote>
''When he was 5 years old, growing up in Oklahoma, one day his mother called a repairman to go under the house, which was raised up on stilts, to fix a leak. Tripp followed the man, whom he later referred to as [[Mahatma_Gandhi|Gandhi]] (his “liberator”), and could see his penis through a crack in his pants. Within one minute, Tripp reported, he “seduced” the man, performing oral sex on him “before he knew it.” How did a 5-year-old know to do this? He answered that it emerged out of nowhere but just felt right; he had no prior sexual experience or knowledge. The man began pushing the boy away, but with “curiosity,” in Tripp’s perception, so the boy did not believe the rebuff and continued the sex act. he remembered that the man was “floored,” but reported that he himself “loved it all.” When he was a bit older, Tripp recalled sitting on the lap of several uncles, intentionally giving them erections without their seeming to know by just moving around. he said he would jump on their laps, asking them to teach him to read, for example, adding that “it was all subterfuge, a trick to get on their lap.” he said he was always “on the prowl” during his boyhood.''
</blockquote>

*'''Loretta Haroian describes one case in "[http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/Haroian/body.htm Child Sexual Development]" (2000):'''

<blockquote>
''Three-year old D was a highly sexed boy who had been involved in sex play with age mates and an older child. He asked his therapist if she wanted to put her mouth on his “dinky.” When she replied in the negative, he pleaded “you'll like it,” “I'll pay you money,” “I'll be your best friend.” When asked if he liked to “play dinky,” he frowned menacingly, clenched his fists and aggressively replied, “yes, I like it, and I'm not going to stop!”''
</blockquote>

*'''Psychology Professor [http://www.ipce.info/host/sandfort_87/chapter2.htm Theo Sandfort asks 12-year-old Wouter who usually initiates sex in his relationship with a 42-year-old man]:'''

<blockquote>
[Wouter] '''Mostly I do.'''

[TS] ''You start it?''

'''I decide if we're going to have sex or not.'''

''You decide that?''

'''Yes. And every day I come here it happens. I don't keep Gerard waiting around.'''

''Is that a kind of rule, that it happens every time?''

'''No. I like it. When I feel like it we just start. Then we first take a bath and then go to bed. Sometimes we do that the other way round.'''

''But if you have to say who starts it, on average, who would that be?''

'''Well, sometimes one of us, sometimes the other. Yes, and sometimes he wants it and I don't, so then we don't do it. Mostly I'm the first one to begin.'''
</blockquote>

*'''Award winning poet [[Delphine Lecompte]] (2021)''':

::On May 6th, 2021, the Dutch Newspaper "Propria Cures," latin for "Mind Your Own Business," published an issue in their newspaper on free speech, specifically in relation to [[pedophilia]].<ref>[https://brongersma.info/PROPRIA_CURES_-_6_May_2021 Propria Cures English Translation (available for PDF viewing or download)], ''Brongersma.info''.</ref> Lecompte's contribution was number 8, titled "The gardener and the five-year-old child," which appears to be an account of Lecompte's [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|own positively experienced sexual feelings and age-gap sex in childhood]]. Among other things, she wrote (retaining her original formatting):

<blockquote>
''As a five-year-old child, I was courted by my grandparents' sturdy weathered half-Bretan gardener. But actually I seduced him.'' [...]

''I stroked the gardener's stiff apron and asked him to show me around his world.''

''The gardener chased me away grimly. He didn't like children.'' [...]

''I knew I couldn't seduce the gardener with words, but maybe the swing would do the trick.''

''If I rocked very high he could see my panties, but he never looked at me, the rocking child. Let alone the panties. His back was always proudly and stubbornly turned to the swing.''

''Nevertheless, every Friday I wore my tightest cutest panties in the hope that the gardener would ever glance at them. After six months, I gave up.''

''I needed to be bolder. I devised a plan: on Thursday night, I would sneak down to my grandparents' basement to disguise a bottle of gin and a goblet of apricots in syrup, and I would then gobble up this rich, irresistible feast with the gardener the next day.'' [...]

''At first I watched the gardener like a horny sneaky voyeur: I gaped unabashedly at the sagging pants and at the sweaty slit leading to the anus.'' [...]

''The gardener turned around and caught me. But he was not annoyed, rather amused.''

''He called me to him, patted my crown and told me I could tip out the wheelbarrow full of weeds in that corner over there.''

''But the wheelbarrow was too heavy and the gardener came up behind me and put his hands on my hands and pressed his blissfully hard midsection against my back, and I thought I was going to cum.'' [...]

''The next Friday was the day: without swing, without gin, and without apricots I went to my goal.''

''I said to the gardener, "Caress me in the bushes, I need it. I've been waiting so long."''

''The gardener seemed moved, and he obeyed, thank God.''

''He tenderly laid me on a tarp between two conifers. He carefully removed my clothes and groped my small limbs with his dirty warm fingers. It was delicious! He built it up heavenly slowly and I almost didn't last, but finally he reached my vagina.'' [...]

''We experienced two years of fun, nay ecstasy. I spoiled him too, his penis in my mouth. Tricky it was not, on the contrary.''

''Even the penetration was much less painful than expected.'' [...]

''We were never caught, never booed, never stoned.''

''But one day his sister died and the gardener was able to get a better job: detective in Newport.''

''In my poems I regularly introduce the gardener as a character. I then invariably call him "the pedophile gardener," but that's not right. We were a couple, a vulgar blind foolish happy in love innocent couple.''

''It was beautiful and it was not perverse. Or if there was perversion involved it came from me.''<ref>For more detail not captured in this excerpt, please read the full story as printed in ''Propria Cures''.</ref>
</blockquote>

*'''[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987).''' - Feminist writer describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender, in 1953 at age 13.
*:"Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead."

*'''Brooke Hopkins. [[Media:(1993)_Brooke_Hopkins_-_A_Question_of_Child_Abuse.pdf|A Question of Child Abuse]], ''Raritan'', Vol. 13 Issue 2, Fall 1993. (13 pages), see [https://web.archive.org/web/20130420133204/http://snifferdogonline.com/reports/Child%20Abuse,%20Sexuality%20and%20Violence/Brooke%20Hopkins%20-%20A%20Question%20of%20Child%20Abuse.pdf backup at Web Archive]:

::Literature professor Brooke Hopkins (1942-2013),<ref>[https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/saltlaketribune/name/brooke-hopkins-obituary?id=24134330 Legacy.com: Brooke Hopkins Obit']</ref> recalled his erotic feelings and behavior directed towards his mother at 6-years-old, which would have occurred in 1948. Fondling his mother across several weeks as she slept in his bed, Hopkins gestures towards [https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Research:_Secondary_Harm secondary/iatrogenic harm] where his experience becomes traumatic after "my father had pulled my mother, screaming, down the hall to their bedroom", a violent reaction which Hopkins interprets as a father's attempt to regain control. Hopkins wrote:

<blockquote>
''I would like to try to describe what it feels like for a six-year-old boy to lie next to his mother in a situation of such relative intimacy all night. My mother wore a long, ankle-length nightgown ''[...]''. It was tightly fitting, and you could see through it, especially if it was illuminated from behind as it often was in the light of the door, could see the dark V of her pubic hair, the hairs themselves, and the dark spots of her nipples. When my mother got into bed on those nights she would almost invariably lie with her back to me, despite all of my mostly self-interested efforts to coax her to do otherwise ''[...]''. At thirty-four, she was tall and quite slender, with smallish breasts and incredibly soft skin. Despite the difference in our sizes, we seemed to fit together pretty well in the traditional spoon position ''[...and]'' at the age of six ''[...]'' such closeness was ''[...]'' engulfing and fantastically exciting.''

''My most urgent need was to try to find out what would make my mother feel better, make her unhappiness go away. I knew what made me feel better when I was unhappy: expressions of concern, gentle stroking, expressions of love. On occasions when I needed it, my father would soothe me to sleep by rubbing my back and my buttocks (which was also erotically very stimulating). I tried the same thing. I would rub my mother's back until she fell asleep, or until I fell asleep. I would pass my hand down over her buttocks, trying to use the same gentle stroking motion my father used with me, occasionally passing it between her buttocks to see what that felt like, to see how she would respond. Partly because her back was turned, I could never tell when she was asleep or just pretending to be asleep. I could never really tell what was going on in her mind.''

[...]

''I do not think that she ever intended to arouse me sexually. In fact, I think she would have been shocked to discover how aroused I was. Her culture was strictly Victorian, pre-Freudian, ''[...]'' and deeply conservative both socially and politically. But the fact is that it didn't take long under the circumstances of our nights together for me to become almost unbearably excited by being so intimately in bed with her, by exploring her body with my hands (or as much of it as I could with her back to me), feeling her warmth and her smell. Sometimes my penis would be so stiff from rubbing against her that I was afraid it would break off, literally like a stick.''

[...]

''One moment in all this stands out with special clarity for me. I had become increasingly shameless in my efforts to explore with my hands and fingers what were for me the secret parts of my mother's body. Her vagina was particularly mysterious to me, and I desperately wanted to touch it, to see what it felt like, to see if she would permit me to touch that part of her. She seemed to like it when I passed my fingers between her buttocks, or at least she never protested, but would lie there quite still letting me do what I wanted. One night, thinking that I might just be able to explore further, I waited until I believed she had gone to sleep, waited what seemed like a incredibly long time in a heightened state of anticipation. I knew that what I was about to do was taboo - it was one reason my mother always had her back to me - but I had to do it, had to touch her there to see what it was like. After an unbearable wait, I summoned up all of my courage and began cautiously to move my hand toward the place about which I had such curiosity. As I approached it, pausing for long periods to see if there was any change in her breathing, she gave a sudden shake and said sleepily, "No, I'm sorry. You can't touch me there. That place is saved for your father." I don't recall exactly what I replied to this expression of marital propriety. Something like: "Is it still okay to touch everywhere else?" I was startled, chastened. But there was no alternative except to accept the logic ''[...]'' despite the fact that she came down the hall to sleep with me every night and seemed to like all the other things I did. Her words, however, had the effect of reminding me that some things were still out of bounds, that ''[...]'' my father was still the one in control.''
</blockquote>

::We believe this account is valuable to preserve for its problematization of dominant CSA accounts, despite its contradictory statements and ethnocentric (i.e. western) bias (see our [[Research:_Nonwestern_Intergenerational_Relationships|non-western accounts]]). In one contradiction, Hopkins begins by writing that ''"Whether this story turns out to be about "child sexual abuse" is up to the reader to decide"'', that ''"such categories are ultimately irrelevant compared to the experience itself"'', but then ends by declaring his experience to be a form of passive abuse. Hopkins argues that his mother ''"should have known better than to have allowed the situation to develop as it did"'' - i.e. have not slept in his bed. He does not consider the possibility of other sources of mother-son eroticism, such as everyday closeness or washing together. He also fails to explain ''why'' his mother would have avoided sleeping next to him when, in his words, ''"I do not think she ever intended to arouse me sexually." "In fact,"'' he wrote, ''"I think she would have been shocked to discover how aroused I was."''

*'''[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/449541.htm Goethe] on GirlChat:'''

<blockquote>
''I remember there was a 7 yo girl who was the daughter of my parent's friends. They'd come around to visit and she'd sleep in the spare bedroom later on while her parents were still up with mine. One warm night she came into my room and asked me to "scratch under there". Her pretext was that it was "itchy" rather than her feeling horny. I was 12 but didn't want to go along with it as I was terrified I might have been found out and then be labeled a "child molester" and suffer all kinds of punitive actions. She was so unbelievably FORCEFUL and wouldn't take no for an answer, so I lead her back to her room and told her to just go to sleep. I'd go back to my own bed and then she'd come in AGAIN. This went on about 4 or 5 times throughout the night. Her pretext that is was "itchy" was obviously BS as she could have easily done it herself. One time she came into my room with her nighty pulled right up and playing with herself right in front of my face. (I was lying down and she was standing right there by my bed side). I told her time again that I "can't" do that, then she'd ask "BUT WHY!!??" She was practically 'sexually harassing' me by this stage with all her persistence. LOL. In the end I was practically arguing with her over it and her voice had become raised with frustration by this time and I could really see it in her face too!. Her parents ended up hearing all the fuss and came up the passage way to see what was going on. They realised that she was hassling me and demanded she get to bed, and then the mother apologized to me for her being a "bother". The girl didn't say a word to them what it was all over, and naturally neither did I. She finally obeyed them and then went back into her own bed without bothering me again. lol.''
</blockquote>

*'''[http://www.steadyhealth.com/Self_stimulating_infant_seems_to_reach_orgasm__t137843.html Self-stimulating infants] (for validation in literature, see [[Research:_Youth_sexuality#Fetal.2Finfant_sexual_capacity|our research section]]):'''

<blockquote>
''At around 12 mos., my granddaughter began stimulating herself by laying on her stomach & stimulating herself by moving her hips in a rhytmic motion. She began only doing it when she is tired & would put herself to sleep this way. Now she does it a lot more often......in her high chair, carseat, etc. Sometimes when she does it now, she nearly screams & seems to get frustrated at times. She will sometimes have a glassy look in her eyes as if she's in deep concentration or a trance-like state. If you try to distract her or pick her up before she's 'ready', she will cry & fight us. We were worried about her being sexually abused, but she's not left alone with strangers.''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''When my 9 year old son was only 2 weeks old, I was laying with him in my bed and had him laying on top of my stomach and chest. All of a sudden, he started thrusting his pelvis back and forth like a man having sex would! I was shocked! He did this for about 10 seconds, and then I turned him over on his back and checked his diaper. His penis was erect! I really freaked out and to this day can't figure out how or why a 2 week old baby would do something like that. I was his only caretaker from the time we left the hospital, and I have NEVER touched any of my children inappropriately. I never saw it happen again when he was a baby, but to this day, he has a tendency to stimulate himself, I think he does it without even realizing it most of the time.''
</blockquote>

*'''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/brong_1.pdf Loving Boys, Volume One] by [[Edward Brongersma]]:'''

<blockquote>
''A 35-year-old mother told Gauthier, 'When he was only 18 months old my six-year-old son was having erections as soon as he touched me. He would mount me and make the motions of intercourse: I thought this was nice and disarming.'"'' (p. 62)
</blockquote>

*'''[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25852001/page/2/ Investigator Bob Mosier, describing the Cambodian sex trade]''':

<blockquote>
''You have an 8-year-old or 9-year-old little girl who's looking at you smiling, ok, realizing that you're going to, uh, in just a few moments possibly, probably engage in a sexual act that they're gonna get money for, and they're smiling about it. I mean I see a smile like that on my kids' face when they're find out that they're gonna go to Disney World or something like that.''
</blockquote>

==BoyLover.net series==

[[Boylover.net]] was one of the world's largest online [[boylove]]r communities, and was the largest online message board for boylovers. It was started in 2002, and shut down when the server was seized as part of Operation Rescue in 2009.

Many surveys documented the experiences of BLs with flirting boys. Clearly, these are influenced by the subjective perceptions of BLs, and should be read holistically with this in mind:

<blockquote>
''yeh so meny times ive been working in a school since september and a have serously lost count at how many times it has happened. and most of the time in plan sight'' [many boylovers echoed this sentiment]
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I'm a junior high school teacher, and I've been teaching for 10 years now. I work with kids with academic and behavior problems, mostly boys between 12 and 14. This situation happens at least with 2 or 3 boys every year ... For example, last year, one of my boys came to see me after school, and told me that I was giving him a hard-on every time he looks at me. This year, I have a student who told me that he would like me to be his first sex partner!''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''But some of them are real flirts, real extroverts, who would strip completely and run around naked, then flash their willy or bend over and give me a brown-eye if I said anything ... Every now and again however one of them will come back to me without his friends, and take my hand, and just want to ask me "growing-up" questions or talk to me or cuddle mostly. Not saying any more . . .''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Last summer at the pool a kid I didn't even know swam over and took my hand and put it in his private area”'' [crotch grabbing, flashing (inc. erection bearing) and voyeurism are well documented behaviours of curious boys in these threads]
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''in my lifetime, i have been flirted with, mooned at, flashed at, and have been innapropriatly touched by various youngsters. i suppose we have to realise its strange old world out there''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''One of my YF's (13 at the time) placed his hands on his hips right in front of me,lowering his track pants so I could see his briefs... it was done very provocatively... Another (10 at the time) would take my hand whenever I sat next to him,then place it on his...sensitive place''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I use to go swimming after my workout in the gym 3 times a week and some boys would come on to me shy and quiet and others plain and rampant. My love is boys under 11 and only 1 boy in this age range came on to me. When i was showering and dressing he watched me closely while staying naked himself, covered but not. (if you see what i mean) The next week i saw him in the pool and he followed me out into the changing room. same again. In time we became friends we talked and laughed together''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''YA! he was talking to me and stuff and then he started rubbing up against me i was trying not to get all "excited" lol but yes i was thrilled!''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''One boy who slept with me on the living room floor by the stove on the colest morning found my hand on his stomach, so he moved his groin up to where my hand was and started humping. A boy took my hand and placed it on his groin, too, but he was always displaying his boner. He couldn't do that with people in the next room, so I guess he did the closest thing possible. I've been kissed by boys on the lips, and a few slipped me a tongue, all ages. Some in the shower would turn around and get a feel to see if I was getting hard, but it went no further. Kind of an eye-opener as far as what boys will do to initiate things. Some people swear that it never happens that way''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''4 of my lfs would kiss me on the lips, and the mothers had no probs with it. But sometimes, they would push the intensity, and each of these put their tongues in to test the limit. The taking your hand to their crotch seems to happen alot, cuz it's happened to me. Flashing, particularly a boner, or getting one before, during, or after a bath happened alot even when we already had a clear decision made on no inappropriate touching. Humping a leg or a hand has ocurred, and putting something in their lap and stroking it for teasing has, too''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Oh I've had couple of y/f's trying to place my hand on their "sensitive place", but the biggest flirt, if you would call it that, for me would have to be the time one of my y/f's spoke to me about being called "gay" at school and I told him what it ment after finding out it was something to do with me, he went quiet for a moment then asked if I would be his b/f''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I have had boys from age 10 to 14 flirt or comeon to me while teaching them swimming. It probably happens with at least 3 boys out of every group I work with. I don't know if they sense about me liking boys or what but they can be pretty forward about it. I have had kids who i am teaching to swim push my hand down to their crotch areas while I am holding them in the pool. I have had kids linger after the session ended and come into to the changing room when Im changing and let me see their little bones as they change. Just the other day I had a 11 yr. who I was holding in the water so he could practice his breast stroke put his hand down under the water and rest it on my crotch. At first this all kind of surprised me but it seems th emore classes I work with the more I see it''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''i have on many occsions. a few have sat on me and grab my croach one pushed me back that i was wresltling and he got on top of me and started feeling my croach for a while. i didnt want it 2 stop''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Yeah, I had a friend that would tell me to touch his...whenever he had a boner. Then he would joke around and say it was a crayon, or something in his pocket. Very hot''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Oh Yes! My SYF flirts with me alot. I could write a whole chapter on all the times he done something to get my attention. He's so open about it that even his old sister (15 yo) has teased me about "It must be nice to have a 10 yo boy that has a crush on you." And when no one else is around he flirts on an entirely other level. Just recently I was sitting on the couch with him while his a playing zelda on a gameboy. I was leaning on his knee (he was laying longways on the couch with his knees up). I was feeling kinda sleepy and everyone else had went to bed. he shifted his knee and grabed my head with his legs and pulled my face into his groin. I didn't feel safe keeping my head there too long since anyone in the house could walk in on us, but it was long enough for me to feel his pulse, if you know what I mean. But that made his intentions to me quite clear. Another time after that he walked up to the side of me while I was on their computer and put his mouth completely around my ear, then asked me if I wanted to do the same thing to him. I'm usally accepting of any advances he makes towards me''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I was watching a 7 yr old boy once, he wanted to wrestle. We were wearing jeans, after a while he wanted to wrestle in just our underwear. So we did that as well and there was more contact than normal. We were both pretty excited after a while and then I had to explain to him why that happens. It was fun to say the least!''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I have had many boys flirt with me, but I have to say the most memorable time was when I was 17 and went to a girlfriend's house to play cards with her, her sister, and mother. I knew she had a brother, but I had never seen him. We were playing cards and he walked into the dining room asking for help with his math homework. He was 12 with dark brown hair and brown eyes and the most perfect build. No one else wanted to help him, so I volunteered and followed him up to his room. His book and papers were on a TV tray next to the bed, so I sat down on the bed and picked up his book. He sat down beside me and literally rammed his entire body against mine. I gave him a funny look and he just smiled even more. It quickly became apparant that he did not need help and one time when I looked into his eyes, only a couple of inches from mine, he clamped a lip-lock on me and tried to slide his tongue in my mouth. I was rescued by his sister coming upstairs to use the bathroom and went back downstairs with her. Another time I stopped by the house and knocked at the side door and he shouted up from the basement. The doors were open next to the side door and I looked down the stairs to see him standing there completely naked and soaked. I ascertained that he was the only one home and left, but his big smile told me he was enjoying the situation immensely!!!” “Couple weeks ago i went to the football and a boy i was with suggestivly sucked on a bottle then said my bf jamie likes me to do it to him, want me to do it to you... I was with family and friends at the time, he then started laughing as i blushed and went completely silent,because he's a real cute 11 year old''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>''Yes, I love boys that flirt with me. My last girlfriends son was a flirt big time. Even just reached out one day and just grabbed my private parts....used to love to play wrestle with him”''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''i once woke up middle of the night at my mates to find his 11yr old cute as bro spoonng naked with me! i was a little shoced, but i'l leave it there!''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''It's happened to me numerous times, starting way back in 7th grade and continuing to the present - and I'm in my 50's. One time, I took this kid fishing. He said, "I'm horny." I said, "Prove it." He did. Oh, boy! We didn't catch many fish''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''my little cousin on more than one occasion would sit next to me in an empty room, while watching tv and grab my hand and shove it down his pants. i didnt really know what to do, so whenever he comes over i try to stay in a room full of people''
</blockquote>

===Thread: Online survey on boys who have "floored" BoyLover.net members===

Some respondents noted general curiosity; initiating kisses and asking intimate questions.

<blockquote>
''Once I asked a super cute, friendly, if troublesome 9-year-old boy why did he think I liked him so much. He just looked me in the eye, smiled, and said, "Because I'm a boy." Golly, he had me pegged!''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I used to live nextdoor to a family of russians..They had 7 kids, 5 were boys.. one day we were all sitting on the stairs. I was trying my hardest to teach them english.. one of the boys just came up and started kissing the back of my neck. I turned my head around and he gave me "the look" and kissed me on the lips. The brothers just started giggling and he had the biggest smile on his face... I was about 16 and boy was 7.. One of my greatest boy moments..''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''I was once asked by a 9 year old lad "What's your AOA?"“ (age of attraction!)''
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''When I was in college, helping out at a recreation center, I was sitting on the steps talking with a group of boys when one hopped up on my lap and hugged me. He had a boner was pressing it against me. He looked me in the eyes, hugged me again and whispered in my ear "...I love you..." ... A few minutes later he asked me "What time is it?" I told him and with a a wonderful smile, he asked, "Will you be here tomorrow?" I said, "Yes." He said, "See you tomorrow!" and whispered, "I really do love you." and ran off''
</blockquote>

==Notes==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Contact]]

Testimony: Non-expressed childhood sexuality

2026-07-01T02:38:52Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}
*'''[https://www.killscreen.com/hide-kojimas-parents-used-make-him-watch-sex-scenes-european-movies-when-he-was-boy/ Hideo Kojima’s parents used to make him watch sex scenes in European movies when he was a boy] (2012)'''
*:"What’s to become of sensitive children who watch naked people having sex on TV? In Hideo Kojima’s case, fame, fortune, and a life-long obsession with moviemaking. In an interview in The Guardian the Metal Gear Solid creator recalls his parents nightly tradition of gathering around the family television to watch imported movies. “I wasn’t allowed to go to bed till the film had finished: the opposite of how it is for most children. My parents were huge fans of westerns, European cinema and horror in particular. They wouldn’t just show me kids’ films. I’d even see the sex scenes.”"
*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20090211153116/http://inquisition21.com/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=327 Two loves that dare not speak their names] by Brian Dyer in Inquisition 21, March 17, 2008.'''
**"College Callgirl" on her over-protective upbringing and sexual fascination with being "molested": “Knowing where I ended up, people often want to know if I was molested as a child. I wasn't, but not for lack of trying [...] [I] quivered with anticipation when alone with an adult, breathlessly wishing and completely terrified that they would cross the line. I fantasized about someone taking advantage of me because it was the only kind of sex I could imagine being able to engage in without feeling guilty [...] My entire childhood felt like watching a pervert jerk off through the library window – me, cocooned in a place of safety and learning, looking out at the dirty, visceral realities of life, intrigued but unable to connect.”
**Foo in comments: “Even though I was raised in a secular way and abstinence propaganda is not an issue where I live, I had the same fantasies as you did growing up. Older people using me was a constant turn on [...] As a 14 year old [boy], I tried to prostitute myself to older men to get some ‘abusive’ action, even though I'm not gay. While ease of finding customers was one reason, the fact that it was the wrong gender for me made it even more titillating. The plan fell through for various reasons, chiefly because I was scared of anybody I knew finding out. Another problem was that I could not find any good facts about whether a condom should be used also for fellatio. Now, more than ten years later, I regret that I never fulfilled my plans.”

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20100110013043/http://www.martijn.org/info/OK87_EN_1.html Marthijn Uittenbogaard] in "Out of the Closet #2", ''OK magazine'', June 18 2003.'''
*:He was attracted to men as a child. "There were no sex games between the two of us, but I did (of course) fantasize about sex. In my fantasies there were boys of my own age (not my school friend though), and a girl that looks boyish (to me now, in an old school photo). I also fantasized about sex with grown-up men. What sex meant, I didn't precisely know, but growing up, the picture became more and more coloured. I hoped for a contact with a nice man, but his looks were not of much importance. What I wanted was to give him sexual pleasure. Sex is an interaction; you can also get pleasure when you give pleasure to your partner. It was a pity that I never met a 'sexual predator'."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20101210224344/http://www.scarletletters.com/current/080102_nf_s.shtml Sharona] in "My Virgin Mind", ''Scarlet Letters''.'''
*:The fantasies of an 11 year old girl. "I came into extreme, insistent sexual awareness at eleven [...] Teenage girls, especially young teens, in this society, are told that their sexual desire simply doesn't exist. [...] I remember my fury, starting at twelve and continuing until the end of high school, every time this piece of drivel was trotted out. I wasn't even thinking about having sex with anyone I knew, but I did want sex. I wanted a lot of sex, and I wanted it right then."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20080511143520/http://www.chrislowe.co.uk/interviews_neil_elton.html Elton John] (musician) in an interview by Neil Tennant in January 1998.'''
*:"At school everyone boasted about sex. Meanwhile I was dying to be molested by someone. When I went to therapy, my therapist said, "I have to ask you if you were molested." And I said, "No, actually." But I was dying to be molested by someone - just to teach me, just to find out, you know?"

*'''An 11-year-old French boy, quoted in: Brongersma, Edward (1979). "[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/pan/htmfiles/pan3p26.htm Boy-Caught]", ''PAN'', Vol. 1 No. 3, p. 26.'''
*:The diaries of a young boy who was in love with a man are quoted from Leonid Kameneff's book ''Ecoliers sans tablier''. It is not clear whether the love was sexually expressed. "In the dormitory last night - I imagined you are there. It is like this - I close my eyes and I embrace you. I caress your body all over. I love you. You do the same things to me. ... And then I fall asleep, so happy! [...] I love him. I want to prove to him all the love I feel for him. The best way I can do that is with my body. I want to make both of us weep for joy. [...] You taught me the meaning of love. I might never have known it without you. [...] You introduced me to paradise. Every Saturday I go to paradise. With you I am happy; with you I live. [...] I have never before felt so free."

*'''Dana M. Northcraft (2004) in "[https://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/genderlaw/12/northcraft.pdf A Nation Scared: Children, Sex, and the Denial of Humanity]", ''American University Journal of Gender, Social. Policy & the Law'', 12(3), pp. 483-518'''
*:"I was five when I had my first orgasm. I recall having conversations with friends when I was no older than ten about that infamous "first time" we were eagerly anticipating."

*'''Anarchist Emma Goldman in her autobiography, ''Living My Life'', [http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/living/living1_2.html chapter 2]
*:"The first erotic sensations I remember had come to me when I was about six. [...] Among the stable help there was a young peasant, Petrushka, who served as shepherd, looking after our cows and sheep. Often he would take me with him to the meadows, and I would listen to the sweet tones of his flute. In the evening he would carry me back home on his shoulders, I sitting astride. He would play horse --- run as fast as his legs could carry him, then suddenly throw me up in the air, catch me in his arms, and press me to him. It used to give me a peculiar sensation, fill me with exultation, followed by blissful release.
*:I became inseparable from Petrushka. I grew so fond of him that I began stealing cake and fruit from Mother's pantry for him. To be with Petrushka out in the fields, to listen to his music, to ride on his shoulders, became the obsession of my waking and sleeping hours. One day Father had an altercation with Petrushka, and the boy was sent away. The loss of him was one of the greatest tragedies of in child-life. For weeks afterwards I kept on dreaming of Petrushka, the meadows, the music, and reliving the joy and ecstasy of our play. One morning I felt myself torn out of sleep. Mother was bending over me, tightly holding my right hand. In an angry voice she cried: "If ever I find your hand again like that, I'll whip you, you naughty child!""

*'''Claudia Card in "What's Wrong with Adult-Child Sex?", ''Journal of Social Philosophy'', 33(2), p. 173'''
*:"Since I was much younger than ten, I was “in love with” particular others (adults, peers) whom I wished passionately to see and caress naked, and I fantasized their wanting to do the same with me."

*'''[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987).'''
*:"I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me."

*'''Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]''.'''
:*"The first time I can recall having a sexually pleasing sensation was when I was around three or four. I remember feeling very proud of what I had learned (how to masturbate) and the strange sensation it aroused. I can remember there was physical pleasure to be derived from fondling my genitals. Such fondling had no heterosexual overtones; the mere physical satisfaction was enough to develop this practice into a habit."

:*"At about the age seven, or so, I first began to masturbate. I am not sure how I came upon this discovery. I believe it may have been when, feeling a need to urinate, I began fingering the genital area and found it to produce a very pleasurable sensation."

:*"Kindergarten was curiously arousing in that I (a boy) enjoyed sleeping next to girls on their mats during rest periods. In the second grade I seemed to have been popular among the girls. During recess, I would tell all the girls that wanted to kiss me to line up, and would then proceed to kiss each one in turn, giving those two or three that I preferred most a kiss on the lips."

:*"I (a boy) first masturbated at the age of seven, as far as I can remember. I had no idea of what I was doing or what it meant, but the feeling was terrific. In view of the fact that masturbation was so enjoyable, it served to make time pass rapidly. Therefore, before the crushing boredom of a second grade classroom would grip me, I would swing my legs under my desk in a fashion which would end in an orgasm."

:*[Boy, age 6]: "The experience of sexual arousal as a child is one of my sexual experiences. Whenever my girl friends and I would look at books while playing, I would always choose the book Little Black Sambo. The picture I am referring to is that of the tiger chasing Sambo around the tree as he is melting into butter. The tiger has previously taken all of Sambo's clothes. The sight of the nude little boy's rear end is what excited me.... I would stare at the picture for quite some time getting a funny feeling the whole time.... My body would tingle all over and my stomach would seem to have butterflies inside of it. I loved this new feeling and wanted to experience it over and over again."

:*"In the garage three, four, and five year olds were starting to explore each other's genitalia, but I (a girl) felt so embarrassed that I sought an escape in being the door guard in case anyone came in. Guilt surrounded the whole escapade both during and after. But somehow I never ventured far enough away so that I could not observe the "action." Afterwards I tried to face my mother but I felt so terrible that I started crying and told her about our experience, whereupon she consoled me and assured me that I did right in not participating and saying how bad my cousin and friend were. My first ordeal was over for me, but the other two received lectures from their parents after being informed by my mother. Still, a curiosity lingered and during the next seven years or so I remember masturbating and fantasizing, but only quietly (secretly) and in bed."

:*"I do remember having erections when I was seven or eight years old. All I really noticed about them was that they occurred when I thought about a young girl I felt romantically inclined toward. Also, they made it very difficult to roll over in bed. I never knew the purpose of the arousal, but I was aroused."

:*"Visual stimulation, from magazine pictures or television, began to occur frequently at age six. This period, lasting from age six to twelve, was one of predominant homosexual stimulation. A marked period of homosexual responses, to both visual and mental imagery, is a major part of my early childhood. Beyond the age of twelve, when I entered the seventh grade, homosexual response declined while heterosexual stimulation increased."

:*"I was about four years old at the time, and had recently discovered masturbation. I was found one day by my mother as she looked in at me during my usual afternoon nap. I was lying naked on the bed in the process of stimulation. I was not physically punished but did receive a few harsh words that inspired some degree of guilt in me. I have continued masturbation. Masturbation was a substantial part of my early life."

:*"Coming home from play one day I (about nine years old) happened upon my sister (about eight) in the basement of our home on the sofa, manipulating herself through her clothes. She showed me how to add pressure to the sides of my labia to gain a 'funny feeling.' At first I felt no satisfaction in it, but after a month of practice and experimenting, I obtained my first orgasm.... I am very grateful to my sister for introducing masturbation to me."

*'''Noah Michelson (2013) in "[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/noah-michelson/pages-from-the-penis-book_b_4098678.html Pages From the Penis Book: My (Possibly Shocking) Sexual Life as a Gay Child]", ''Boys, An Anthology'', Thought Catalog.'''
*:"What else could explain why, from the day I was born, all I've ever been able to think about is having sex with men? [...] My mother claims that once, at a large family function, probably a birthday party or a breakfast celebrating some vaguely Christian holiday, she saw me happily masturbating. I was only 3 years old [...]
*:I have always been boy-crazy. Always. I would spend hours fantasizing about the father shaving in my Pat the Bunny book, wishing I could rub my hand over more than just his sandpaper stubble. And every time Mr. Rogers came on television, I would pray that this time he would change out of more than just his shoes and cardigan and finally reveal himself to me fully.
*:When I was 4 or 5, I fell in love with our garbage man. All I really remember about him now is that he had a porn star mustache and never wore sleeves during our hot Midwestern summers. One day, determined to finally take matters into my own hands, I snuck outside when I heard his truck coming down the street and, wearing nothing but my underwear, performed a burlesque-esque dance for him in our front yard. [...]
*:I'm not sure if I ever fully wanted to be a girl. Aside from being interested in more typically feminine activities, I realize now that part of the reason that I identified with women was that, as far as I knew as a little boy in small-town Wisconsin, men did not have sex with men. There were no gay men there (and if there were, they were forced to take their pick between being closeted and miserable or just plain miserable). So if I wanted to be with a man -- and boy, did I ever -- I needed to be a woman. [...] My secret was out: I loved men. I lusted after them. Men in garbage trucks. Men in grocery stores. Men in puffy-sleeve pirate shirts. And I wanted them to do wonderful and terrible things to me."

* '''French novelist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Flaubert Gustave Flaubert] (age 14) circa 1835, quoted in Germaine Greer, ''[https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/books/beautiful.pdf The Beautiful Boy]'' (London: Thames and Hudson, 2003), p. 74.'''
*:"By his own account Gustave Flaubert was six months shy of his fifteenth birthday when he went on holiday with his family to Trouville and fell in love. In a memoir written when he was sixteen, he recalled the way he stalked a woman he saw on the beach:
*:I gazed at her from afar underneath the water, I envied the soft, peaceful waves lapping against her sides and covering with foam that heaving breast, I could see the outline of her limbs beneath the wet clothes enwrapping her, I could see her heart beating, her breast swelling, I mechanically contemplated her foot placing itself on the sand, and my gaze remained fixed to the trace of her steps and I could almost have wept at the sight of the waves washing them slowly away.
*:And then when she came back and passed by me, and I heard the water dripping from her clothes and the swish of her walk, my heart beat violently, I lowered my eyes, blood rushed to my head — I was suffocating — I could feel that woman's half-naked body passing by me with the odour of the waves. Even deaf and blind, I could have guessed at her presence, for there was within me something intimate and tender which was submerged in ecstasy and graceful imaginings, whenever she passed by like that."

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]

Testimony: Expressed childhood sexuality

2026-07-01T02:37:28Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}
There are numerous recorded examples of children and minors engaging in sexual behaviors among themselves. This accounts for the vast bulk of sexual interactions involving youth. Teenage boys are the [[Research: Who offends and how often?|most at-risk group]] for prosecution of all sexual contact involving minors, even more so than adult men.

*'''[http://anu.nfshost.com/?p=92 Steve Diamond on ATC blog (defunct)]'''
*:"I have naturally craved sex...sexual touch, through all stages of my conscious life. I do not remember any phase during my childhood, when I was without sexual attraction and arousal. It was very natural, and spontaneous. I never disliked it, though I learned to hide it from others. [...] But I have, honestly, known several children (when I was a boy), who were having sex...semi-regular, and prior to puberty. Nobody complained...Everybody liked it...Everybody made the choice to be there and do that."

*'''Nine-year-old girl, quoted in: Martin, Lorna and Card, Nell. "[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1669967,00.html The secret love life of Laura-Anne, aged 9¾]", ''The Guardian'', December 18 2005.'''
*:"Laura-Anne Hanrahan [nine years old] is sitting on her doorstep, playing with a pumpkin as she describes how she felt when her boyfriend kissed her. 'Tingly,' she says, dreamily. 'He used to come over and cuddle me and put his hands up my top. It used to feel cosy. I feel desperate to go up to him and say "Ben, why don't we kiss any more". It hurts so much that we don't kiss that I want to rip my heart out and throw it away.'"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Angelina-Jolie-Was-A-Kindergarten-Sex-Kitten-3855.html Angelina Jolie] (actress), quoted in: "Angelina Jolie Was A Kindergarten Sex Kitten", ''World Entertainment News Network'', April 18 2007.'''
*:"I was a member of a group called the Kissy Girls. I was very sexual in kindergarten. "I created a game where I would kiss the boys and give them cooties (children's fictional disease). Then we would make out and we would take our clothes off."

*'''[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987).'''
*:"I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|lesbian]], but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it."

*'''Anonymous boy, 14'''
*:"My brother (three years older) initiated some 'exploration' (I was around 10 years old at the time) - showing our penises, measuring them, eventually leading to me licking his penis. This eventually led to frequent mutual masturbation, oral sex, and an attempt at anal sex, with me on bottom (we used shampoo for lube - ouch). There was a period where my brother lost interest in such activities, but I continued craving sex with him. I eventually got more - he would let me suck him off, and we eventually did anal once, with me on top this time. After a few minutes he wasn't interested anymore and I finished him off by mouth. I was 14 at the time. The frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off after that, and it has been several months since anything happened (I still crave cock though)."

*'''[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/441610.htm AlbertRoss on GirlChat], May 21 2008'''
*:Although his real name is probably not known, he has previously outed himself on video. "my older male friend was about four or five years ahead of me, almost fourteen to my nine, at the time we met. two of the best years of my life, in so many ways, and not just because he had a swimming pool in his front yard, nor because his dad was well off, and took us all out to dinner a lot. i learned most of what i know about sex from him. normal heterosexual sex, that is - his interest was in me, mine was about girls, he had the details i wanted, and i hadn't yet been tainted by homophobia. what they call a win/win situation, i guess. i discovered the phobia at eleven, told him i couldn't see him any more, and that was it. took me decades to get over the sense of having done something terribly wrong, and quite a few more to restore my memories to what i now remember - that overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder. in short - the only harm i experienced was that imposed on me by outside prejudices. i'm exclusively hetero, and always have been, and today i feel diminished by that.."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html Mother of two boys], from: "Molested: A mother discovers that the legal system's nightmarish 'cure' for child sexual abuse can be worse than the disease", ''Salon'', February 28 1997.'''
*:As well as being a very reliable and articulate source for the younger brother's feelings about an affectionate, family sex relationship, there are many points raised about the persecution of young people in a sex-negative welfare state. "Between my two sons, there was kissing, there was touching, there was oral contact ("sodomy"). There was a lot of looking. There was no penetration, no force, no threats. They are several years apart in age and the contacts occurred over several weeks. My youngest son confessed in tears that he'd enjoyed it, and was very sorry he'd gotten his brother in so much trouble." (Parts [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303112703/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested970228.html 1], [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303150342/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested2970228.html 2] and [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html 3] | [http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/mother.htm Combined] )

*'''"[http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Boys_family_fights_sex_charges/UPI-54821228781406/ Boy's family fights sex charges]", ''United Press Internationa'', December 8 2008.'''
*:"Several teenage girls in Mequon, Wis., say they object to a classmate being criminally prosecuted for allegedly touching them inappropriately. The girls, in court affidavits, said they did not feel degraded by the boy, now 14, and don't want to see him prosecuted for five counts of fourth-degree sexual assault, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday. [...] Prosecutors allege the boy several times in 2007 and in June 2008, when he was 13, grabbed the girls' buttocks or their breasts, licked a girl's neck and tickled a girl in the stomach."

*'''[http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/04/chris-brown-rihanna-interview-x Chris Brown], quoted in: Aitkenhead, Decca. "Chris Brown: 'It was the biggest wake-up call'", ''The Guardian'', October 4 2013.'''
*:He lost his virginity when he was eight years old, to a local girl who was 14 or 15. Seriously? "Yeah, really. Uh-huh." He grins and chuckles. "It's different in the country." Brown grew up with a great gang of boy cousins, and they watched so much porn that he was raring to go. "By that point, we were already kind of like hot to trot, you know what I'm saying? Like, girls, we weren't afraid to talk to them; I wasn't afraid. So, at eight, being able to do it, it kind of preps you for the long run, so you can be a beast at it. You can be the best at it."

*'''Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]''.'''

:*"My neighborhood environment has always been quite permissive which enabled me (a boy) the time and freedom to become the finest five year old doctor in my neighborhood. I clearly remember associating my penile erections with examination of the next door girl's anatomy."

:*"I (a girl) encountered a sexual experience that was confusing at kindergarten age.... Some afternoons we would meet and lock ourselves in a bedroom and take our pants off. We took turns lying on the bed and put pennies, marbles, etc. between our labia. The other two liked to pretend they were boys and used a pencil for a penis. As the ritual became old hat, it passed out of existence. I enjoyed the sexual manipulation, for it was stimulating."

:*"The girl and I were age six. I suggested playing doctor. We took off our clothes and then she lay down on her stomach so I could give her a "shot." [...] She messed around a little bit until I began to get what was for me my first memorable erection. [...] She started to touch it, pulled back quickly (still giggling), then touched it and finally put her hand on it. At that time I wasn't exactly prepared for the sensations I received so I suggested that maybe she shouldn't do that any more. I seem to remember a strange feeling when looking at her genitals. I couldn't figure out what they were for but while looking, I felt a pleasurable sensation in my own genitals, and I'm sure that the thought of placing mine near hers passed through my mind but I dismissed it for lack of time (her mother would be coming soon)."

:*"When I [a girl] was about seven years old, my eleven year old neighbor girl friend and I would get together and play games which involved fondling and exploring each other's body.... A game that we played was referred to as "upper" and "lower" and this would include choosing one of the words and the other person would stimulate that portion of the body for about 10-15 minutes. This we did anywhere since it did not involve taking off clothes, just placing the hand inside the clothing. By sexual contacts I had a release to strange feelings inside me and got much physical satisfaction when arms were holding me."

:*"I (age 12) was invited to an all boy slumber party at one of my friend's homes.... I laid down next to Jim, and we talked for a long time and I remember scratching his back and then I remember him asking if I would itch his "cock." I guess it was more curiosity at his big organ than anything that led me to comply and I did. [...] Anyway, I was stimulating him and he all of a sudden insisted that I stop. I didn't know why at the time, but I did what he said. He then suggested that he return the favor. Well, he began to manually stimulate me, and the sensation was so great at orgasm I honestly remember that I made him stop for a second. Then I asked him to start again and the sensation came back and I made him stop again. I was too young to ejaculate anything, but it sure felt good. We repeated the cycle at least ten times before we quit."

:*My second homosexual experience was one with my older cousin. I think I was in about fifth grade when this happened, and he must have been in about eighth grade of junior high school. The contact involved lying down on the couch and unzipping each other's pants and fondling, caressing, and masturbating each other's genitals. I remember he felt a special sensation when I would reach way around his scrotum and fondle his testes. We would take turns stimulating each other and then we would fondle each other simultaneously. I also received great pleasure from this homosexual contact."

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]] [[Category:Testimony: Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]

Testimony: Expressed childhood sexuality

2026-07-01T02:36:29Z

Prue:

{{Template:A&T}}
There are numerous recorded examples of children and minors engaging in sexual behaviors among themselves. This accounts for the vast bulk of sexual interactions involving youth. Teenage boys are the [[Research: Who offends and how often?|most at-risk group]] for prosecution of all sexual contact involving minors, even more so than adult men.

*'''[http://anu.nfshost.com/?p=92 Steve Diamond on ATC blog (defunct)]'''
*:"I have naturally craved sex...sexual touch, through all stages of my conscious life. I do not remember any phase during my childhood, when I was without sexual attraction and arousal. It was very natural, and spontaneous. I never disliked it, though I learned to hide it from others. [...] But I have, honestly, known several children (when I was a boy), who were having sex...semi-regular, and prior to puberty. Nobody complained...Everybody liked it...Everybody made the choice to be there and do that."

*'''Nine-year-old girl, quoted in: Martin, Lorna and Card, Nell. "[http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1669967,00.html The secret love life of Laura-Anne, aged 9¾]", ''The Guardian'', December 18 2005.'''
*:"Laura-Anne Hanrahan [nine years old] is sitting on her doorstep, playing with a pumpkin as she describes how she felt when her boyfriend kissed her. 'Tingly,' she says, dreamily. 'He used to come over and cuddle me and put his hands up my top. It used to feel cosy. I feel desperate to go up to him and say "Ben, why don't we kiss any more". It hurts so much that we don't kiss that I want to rip my heart out and throw it away.'"

*'''[http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1589948,00.html Prominent British men on fagging in their public schools]'''
*:Article by the Guardian about the culture of homosexuality and pederasty in boys' boarding schools.

*'''[http://www.cinemablend.com/celebrity/Angelina-Jolie-Was-A-Kindergarten-Sex-Kitten-3855.html Angelina Jolie] (actress), quoted in: "Angelina Jolie Was A Kindergarten Sex Kitten", ''World Entertainment News Network'', April 18 2007.'''
*:"I was a member of a group called the Kissy Girls. I was very sexual in kindergarten. "I created a game where I would kiss the boys and give them cooties (children's fictional disease). Then we would make out and we would take our clothes off."

*'''[[Joan Nestle]], [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987).'''
*:"I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it."

*'''Anonymous boy, 14'''
*:"My brother (three years older) initiated some 'exploration' (I was around 10 years old at the time) - showing our penises, measuring them, eventually leading to me licking his penis. This eventually led to frequent mutual masturbation, oral sex, and an attempt at anal sex, with me on bottom (we used shampoo for lube - ouch). There was a period where my brother lost interest in such activities, but I continued craving sex with him. I eventually got more - he would let me suck him off, and we eventually did anal once, with me on top this time. After a few minutes he wasn't interested anymore and I finished him off by mouth. I was 14 at the time. The frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off after that, and it has been several months since anything happened (I still crave cock though)."

*'''[http://annabelleigh.net/messages/441610.htm AlbertRoss on GirlChat], May 21 2008'''
*:Although his real name is probably not known, he has previously outed himself on video. "my older male friend was about four or five years ahead of me, almost fourteen to my nine, at the time we met. two of the best years of my life, in so many ways, and not just because he had a swimming pool in his front yard, nor because his dad was well off, and took us all out to dinner a lot. i learned most of what i know about sex from him. normal heterosexual sex, that is - his interest was in me, mine was about girls, he had the details i wanted, and i hadn't yet been tainted by homophobia. what they call a win/win situation, i guess. i discovered the phobia at eleven, told him i couldn't see him any more, and that was it. took me decades to get over the sense of having done something terribly wrong, and quite a few more to restore my memories to what i now remember - that overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder. in short - the only harm i experienced was that imposed on me by outside prejudices. i'm exclusively hetero, and always have been, and today i feel diminished by that.."

*'''[http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html Mother of two boys], from: "Molested: A mother discovers that the legal system's nightmarish 'cure' for child sexual abuse can be worse than the disease", ''Salon'', February 28 1997.'''
*:As well as being a very reliable and articulate source for the younger brother's feelings about an affectionate, family sex relationship, there are many points raised about the persecution of young people in a sex-negative welfare state. "Between my two sons, there was kissing, there was touching, there was oral contact ("sodomy"). There was a lot of looking. There was no penetration, no force, no threats. They are several years apart in age and the contacts occurred over several weeks. My youngest son confessed in tears that he'd enjoyed it, and was very sorry he'd gotten his brother in so much trouble." (Parts [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303112703/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested970228.html 1], [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303150342/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested2970228.html 2] and [http://web.archive.org/web/20090303151556/http://www.salon.com/feb97/molested3970228.html 3] | [http://www.helping-people.info/Treatment/mother.htm Combined] )

*'''"[http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/08/Boys_family_fights_sex_charges/UPI-54821228781406/ Boy's family fights sex charges]", ''United Press Internationa'', December 8 2008.'''
*:"Several teenage girls in Mequon, Wis., say they object to a classmate being criminally prosecuted for allegedly touching them inappropriately. The girls, in court affidavits, said they did not feel degraded by the boy, now 14, and don't want to see him prosecuted for five counts of fourth-degree sexual assault, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Monday. [...] Prosecutors allege the boy several times in 2007 and in June 2008, when he was 13, grabbed the girls' buttocks or their breasts, licked a girl's neck and tickled a girl in the stomach."

*'''[http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/04/chris-brown-rihanna-interview-x Chris Brown], quoted in: Aitkenhead, Decca. "Chris Brown: 'It was the biggest wake-up call'", ''The Guardian'', October 4 2013.'''
*:He lost his virginity when he was eight years old, to a local girl who was 14 or 15. Seriously? "Yeah, really. Uh-huh." He grins and chuckles. "It's different in the country." Brown grew up with a great gang of boy cousins, and they watched so much porn that he was raring to go. "By that point, we were already kind of like hot to trot, you know what I'm saying? Like, girls, we weren't afraid to talk to them; I wasn't afraid. So, at eight, being able to do it, it kind of preps you for the long run, so you can be a beast at it. You can be the best at it."

*'''Various interviewees, quoted in: Martinson, Floyd (1973). ''[http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/martinson/infant/InfantAndChildSexuality.html Infant and Child Sexuality: A Sociological Perspective]''.'''

:*"My neighborhood environment has always been quite permissive which enabled me (a boy) the time and freedom to become the finest five year old doctor in my neighborhood. I clearly remember associating my penile erections with examination of the next door girl's anatomy."

:*"I (a girl) encountered a sexual experience that was confusing at kindergarten age.... Some afternoons we would meet and lock ourselves in a bedroom and take our pants off. We took turns lying on the bed and put pennies, marbles, etc. between our labia. The other two liked to pretend they were boys and used a pencil for a penis. As the ritual became old hat, it passed out of existence. I enjoyed the sexual manipulation, for it was stimulating."

:*"The girl and I were age six. I suggested playing doctor. We took off our clothes and then she lay down on her stomach so I could give her a "shot." [...] She messed around a little bit until I began to get what was for me my first memorable erection. [...] She started to touch it, pulled back quickly (still giggling), then touched it and finally put her hand on it. At that time I wasn't exactly prepared for the sensations I received so I suggested that maybe she shouldn't do that any more. I seem to remember a strange feeling when looking at her genitals. I couldn't figure out what they were for but while looking, I felt a pleasurable sensation in my own genitals, and I'm sure that the thought of placing mine near hers passed through my mind but I dismissed it for lack of time (her mother would be coming soon)."

:*"When I [a girl] was about seven years old, my eleven year old neighbor girl friend and I would get together and play games which involved fondling and exploring each other's body.... A game that we played was referred to as "upper" and "lower" and this would include choosing one of the words and the other person would stimulate that portion of the body for about 10-15 minutes. This we did anywhere since it did not involve taking off clothes, just placing the hand inside the clothing. By sexual contacts I had a release to strange feelings inside me and got much physical satisfaction when arms were holding me."

:*"I (age 12) was invited to an all boy slumber party at one of my friend's homes.... I laid down next to Jim, and we talked for a long time and I remember scratching his back and then I remember him asking if I would itch his "cock." I guess it was more curiosity at his big organ than anything that led me to comply and I did. [...] Anyway, I was stimulating him and he all of a sudden insisted that I stop. I didn't know why at the time, but I did what he said. He then suggested that he return the favor. Well, he began to manually stimulate me, and the sensation was so great at orgasm I honestly remember that I made him stop for a second. Then I asked him to start again and the sensation came back and I made him stop again. I was too young to ejaculate anything, but it sure felt good. We repeated the cycle at least ten times before we quit."

:*My second homosexual experience was one with my older cousin. I think I was in about fifth grade when this happened, and he must have been in about eighth grade of junior high school. The contact involved lying down on the couch and unzipping each other's pants and fondling, caressing, and masturbating each other's genitals. I remember he felt a special sensation when I would reach way around his scrotum and fondle his testes. We would take turns stimulating each other and then we would fondle each other simultaneously. I also received great pleasure from this homosexual contact."

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Testimony]] [[Category:Testimony: Contact]][[Category:Testimony: Non-Contact]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T02:30:19Z

Prue:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by [[Feminism|feminist]] civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988.<ref>Nestle, [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/d3baf967efaba267e721d81cc9441ca2 ''A Restricted Country''] (1987). [Annas Archive PDF link].</ref> Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Various editions are available.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina's husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:
<blockquote>
''I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pornography [[Feminism|feminism]]. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

User:Prue

2026-07-01T02:23:42Z

Prue:

[[File:Bluecross.png|thumb|This user has been awarded a blue cross (for contributing at least '''7''' complete articles on NewgonWiki), and is thus able to award the cross to any other editor]]
'''Role:''' Editorial Lead: [[Newgon Support Team|Social History and Critical Theory]].

Teleiophile (i.e. not, myself, an MAP). I've come to be interested in MAP issues through scholarship, so I tend to produce pages about academics and historical figures related to MAPs. Some pages I've produced include:

*I made pages for all but one of the "famous pedophiles" blog. Includes [[Andre Gide]], [[Johann Wolfgang von Goethe]], [[Thomas Mann]], [[Edgar Allan Poe]], [[Lord Byron]], [[Gabriel Garcia Marquez]], [[Samuel de Champlain]], [[Novalis]], [[Mark Twain]], [[Will Durant]], [[Horatio Alger]], [[Giacomo Casanova]], [[Mahatma Gandhi]], the [[Prophet Muhammad]], [[Srinivasa Ramanujan]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]], [[M. P. Shiel]], [[T. H. White]], [[Kentaro Miura]] and [[Hayao Miyazaki]].

*[[Intergenerational Lesbianism]] is largely by me, including the summary of historian Amanda H. Littauer's 2020 article in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonials]] page. The detailed [[Feminism]] page is largely by me, as well as the detailed page on the lesbian feminist [[Joan Nestle]], who documented her own intergenerational desire directed towards older women during her childhood.

*A large fact-checker article on [[Erwin Schrodinger]]. Large articles on historical MAP figures: [[Charlie Chaplin]], [[John Ruskin]], [[Eric Gill]], and [[Ernest Dowson]]. The most detailed article anywhere on [[Roger Moody]], a left-wing MAP figure who was the 1st British person to openly declare himself a "paedophile" in print. The most detailed page anywhere on [[Nettie Pollard]], a pioneering British lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner who supported [[PIE]] and children's liberation.

*General/miscellaneous: Australian modern MAP figure [[Clarence Osborne]]. The author of ''Lolita'', [[Vladimir Nabokov]], and the contemporary artist he admired: [[Balthus]]. Books like Nancy Friday's truly sex-positive [[My Secret Garden]], and the 1st anthology of American homosexual literature [[Men and Boys: An Anthology (1924)]], as well as its author [[Edward Mark Slocum]]. The [[Encyclopedia of Homosexuality]] (1990) - a good starting point for the history of [[pederasty]]. [[Boyd McDonald]] - publisher of reader's sex stories / histories in the long-running gay pornography and erotic literature zine ''S.T.H.'' or ''Straight to Hell'', which often involved childhood experiences and age-gap sexual experience. Gay icons [[Harvey Milk]] and [[Craig Rodwell]].

*Academics (General): [[Ken Plummer]], [[John P. De Cecco]], [[David Sonenschein]], [[Ernest Borneman]], [[John Money]], [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[Gilbert Herdt]], [[Gert Hekma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc]], [[Theo Sandfort]], [[Terry Leahy]] (updated links), [[Allie C. Kilpatrick]], [[Paul Okami]], [[Chin-Keung Li]]/C.K. Li, [[Warren Johansson]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster]], [[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal]], [[Hoko Horii]], [[Gennady Borisovich Deryagin]], [[LeRoy G. Schultz]], [[Preben Hertoft]], [[Helmut Graupner]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Volkmar Sigusch]], [[Eberhard Schorsch]], [[Gunter Schmidt]], [[Thore Langfeldt]], [[Katharina Rutschky]], [[Marjan Sax]], [[Pat Sikes]] (teacher-student relationships), [[Jeffrey Weeks]], [[Philip Jenkins]], [[Charles Shively]] and his friend [[NAMBLA]] spokesperson [[Tom Reeves]].

*I've helped to make books such as [[The Betrayal of Youth (Book)]] (1986), and [[Pedophiles on Parade]] (Vol. 1 and 2, 1998), available to the general public, online for free.

*Many pages I've made relate to [[Communism|Left-wing politics]]. E.g. The most detailed article anywhere on the the life and thought of the once influential anarchist German MAP activist [[Peter Schult]]. This involved translating the 1 German academic biography about him, summarized in [[Beispiel Peter Schult]]. Created pages for the anarchists [[Sebastien Faure]], [[Wolfi Landstreicher]], [[Noam Chomsky]], [[Vaush]], and the socialist [[The_Oneida_Community|Oneida Community]] which institutionalized woman-boy sexual contact.

*French figures, including queer theorists [[Guy Hocquenghem]] and [[Mario Mieli]]; writers [[Pierre Louys]], [[Jacques d'Adelsward-Fersen]], [[Jean-Claude Féray]], [[Roger Peyrefitte]], [[Tony Duvert]], and [[Gabriel Matzneff]]; artists like [[Paul Gauguin]], and film director / writer [[Alain Robbe-Grillet]].

*Japanese figures (mostly manga artists): [[Kentaro Miura]], [[Nobuhiro Watsuki]], [[Mitsutoshi Shimabukuro]], [[Kenya Suzuki]], [[Tatsuya Matsuki]], [[Hidekazu Tanaka]], [[Ken Akamatsu]]

*Indian figures: [[Anandi Gopal Joshi]], [[Rani Laxmibai]], [[B. R. Ambedkar]], [[Chakravarti Rajagopalachari]], [[Mahadev Govind Ranade]].

I've also made edits to already existing pages that aren't shown here. Want to get in touch? Leave a comment at heretictoc.com and I'll be likely to see it and reply. Or join the [[Help:Joining PCMA chat|Newgon chat on Matrix/Element]].

User:Prue

2026-07-01T02:22:53Z

Prue:

[[File:Bluecross.png|thumb|This user has been awarded a blue cross (for contributing at least '''7''' complete articles on NewgonWiki), and is thus able to award the cross to any other editor]]
'''Role:''' Editorial Lead: [[Newgon Support Team|Social History and Critical Theory]].

Teleiophile (i.e. not, myself, an MAP). I've come to be interested in MAP issues through scholarship, so I tend to produce pages about academics and historical figures related to MAPs. Some pages I've produced include:

*I made pages for all but one of the "famous pedophiles" blog. Includes [[Andre Gide]], [[Johann Wolfgang von Goethe]], [[Thomas Mann]], [[Edgar Allan Poe]], [[Lord Byron]], [[Gabriel Garcia Marquez]], [[Samuel de Champlain]], [[Novalis]], [[Mark Twain]], [[Will Durant]], [[Horatio Alger]], [[Giacomo Casanova]], [[Mahatma Gandhi]], the [[Prophet Muhammad]], [[Srinivasa Ramanujan]], [[Carleton Gajdusek]], [[M. P. Shiel]], [[T. H. White]], [[Kentaro Miura]] and [[Hayao Miyazaki]].

*[[Intergenerational Lesbianism]] is largely by me, including the summary of historian Amanda H. Littauer's 2020 article in our [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonials]] page. The detailed [[Feminism]] page is largely by me, including a detailed page on the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] who documented her own intergenerational desire directed at older women during her childhood.

*A large fact-checker article on [[Erwin Schrodinger]]. Large articles on historical MAP figures: [[Charlie Chaplin]], [[John Ruskin]], [[Eric Gill]], and [[Ernest Dowson]]. The most detailed article anywhere on [[Roger Moody]], a left-wing MAP figure who was the 1st British person to openly declare himself a "paedophile" in print. The most detailed page anywhere on [[Nettie Pollard]], a pioneering British lesbian activist and civil rights campaigner who supported [[PIE]] and children's liberation.

*General/miscellaneous: Australian modern MAP figure [[Clarence Osborne]]. The author of ''Lolita'', [[Vladimir Nabokov]], and the contemporary artist he admired: [[Balthus]]. Books like Nancy Friday's truly sex-positive [[My Secret Garden]], and the 1st anthology of American homosexual literature [[Men and Boys: An Anthology (1924)]], as well as its author [[Edward Mark Slocum]]. The [[Encyclopedia of Homosexuality]] (1990) - a good starting point for the history of [[pederasty]]. [[Boyd McDonald]] - publisher of reader's sex stories / histories in the long-running gay pornography and erotic literature zine ''S.T.H.'' or ''Straight to Hell'', which often involved childhood experiences and age-gap sexual experience. Gay icons [[Harvey Milk]] and [[Craig Rodwell]].

*Academics (General): [[Ken Plummer]], [[John P. De Cecco]], [[David Sonenschein]], [[Ernest Borneman]], [[John Money]], [[Richard Green]], [[Donald West]], [[Gilbert Herdt]], [[Gert Hekma]], [[Will H. L. Ogrinc]], [[Theo Sandfort]], [[Terry Leahy]] (updated links), [[Allie C. Kilpatrick]], [[Paul Okami]], [[Chin-Keung Li]]/C.K. Li, [[Warren Johansson]], [[Stephen Wayne Foster]], [[Rachel Hope Cleves]], [[Nicholas Syrett]], [[Leonardo Arce Vidal]], [[Hoko Horii]], [[Gennady Borisovich Deryagin]], [[LeRoy G. Schultz]], [[Preben Hertoft]], [[Helmut Graupner]], [[Gisela Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg]], [[Volkmar Sigusch]], [[Eberhard Schorsch]], [[Gunter Schmidt]], [[Thore Langfeldt]], [[Katharina Rutschky]], [[Marjan Sax]], [[Pat Sikes]] (teacher-student relationships), [[Jeffrey Weeks]], [[Philip Jenkins]], [[Charles Shively]] and his friend [[NAMBLA]] spokesperson [[Tom Reeves]].

*I've helped to make books such as [[The Betrayal of Youth (Book)]] (1986), and [[Pedophiles on Parade]] (Vol. 1 and 2, 1998), available to the general public, online for free.

*Many pages I've made relate to [[Communism|Left-wing politics]]. E.g. The most detailed article anywhere on the the life and thought of the once influential anarchist German MAP activist [[Peter Schult]]. This involved translating the 1 German academic biography about him, summarized in [[Beispiel Peter Schult]]. Created pages for the anarchists [[Sebastien Faure]], [[Wolfi Landstreicher]], [[Noam Chomsky]], [[Vaush]], and the socialist [[The_Oneida_Community|Oneida Community]] which institutionalized woman-boy sexual contact.

*French figures, including queer theorists [[Guy Hocquenghem]] and [[Mario Mieli]]; writers [[Pierre Louys]], [[Jacques d'Adelsward-Fersen]], [[Jean-Claude Féray]], [[Roger Peyrefitte]], [[Tony Duvert]], and [[Gabriel Matzneff]]; artists like [[Paul Gauguin]], and film director / writer [[Alain Robbe-Grillet]].

*Japanese figures (mostly manga artists): [[Kentaro Miura]], [[Nobuhiro Watsuki]], [[Mitsutoshi Shimabukuro]], [[Kenya Suzuki]], [[Tatsuya Matsuki]], [[Hidekazu Tanaka]], [[Ken Akamatsu]]

*Indian figures: [[Anandi Gopal Joshi]], [[Rani Laxmibai]], [[B. R. Ambedkar]], [[Chakravarti Rajagopalachari]], [[Mahadev Govind Ranade]].

I've also made edits to already existing pages that aren't shown here. Want to get in touch? Leave a comment at heretictoc.com and I'll be likely to see it and reply. Or join the [[Help:Joining PCMA chat|Newgon chat on Matrix/Element]].

Feminism

2026-07-01T02:20:34Z

Prue:

{{Template:Adj}}__NOTOC__'''Feminism''' is a belief-system based on a purported anti-oppression point of view as applied to the contemporary situation of women and historical abuses faced by women and other minorities. The feminist discourse is particularly concerned with equal rights, and in some cases, outright [[inequality|equality]].

Many of the most influential feminists of the 20th century have made supportive statements about minor-older erotic behavior, including [[Gayle Rubin]], [[Germaine Greer]], [[Kate Millett]], [[Simone de Beauvoir]], [[Shulamith Firestone]], [[Judith Butler]], and [[Andrea Dworkin]]. Whilst some other sex-positive and/or dissident feminists such as [[Jane Rule]], [[Camille Paglia]], [[Patrick Califia]], [[Nettie Pollard]], [[Joan Nestle]], [[Judith Levine]], [[Yasmin Nair]], [[Beatrice_Faust|Beatrice Faust]], [[Essay:Our Sexuality, Ourselves (Review of The Age Taboo in Gay Community News)|Cindy Patton]], [[Stevi Jackson]], [[Katharina Rutschky]], [[Nina Power]], [[Heather Corinna]], [[Janice Irvine]], [[Sharon Lamb]] and [[Carol Tavris]], elaborate contrarian philosophies and anecdotes on the issue of adult-minor sexuality, since the 1970s the discourse has been increasingly used to condemn such sexual relationships on the basis that inequalities render them universally "abusive".

At present, adjacent movements such as pro-sex work, sex-positive, and [[Wikipedia:Carceral feminism|anti-carceral]] feminism are more likely to hold positions that pro-choice MAP and youth rights activists may hold, including the recognition that [[Research:_Commercial_and_online_sexual_exploitation|minors choose and want]] to engage in sex and sex work, and that prisons and public registration for lawbreakers are ineffective strategies for reducing the incidence of unlawful erotic behavior, especially when law makes no distinctions between mutually willing eroticism and unwanted, violent assaults, and criminalizes minors for [[consent|consensual]] erotic activity with other minors (Levine and Meiners<ref>[http://library.lol/main/13B331C61A42685FEE3ECF8BD1F0BD99 The Feminist and the Sex Offender]</ref> 2020; Taylor<ref>[https://wapercyfoundation.org/?page_id=1086 News & Resources: review – Taylor: ‘Foucault, Feminism, & Sex Crimes’]</ref> 2018).

The influence of sex-positive and anti-carceral feminism remains marginal in comparison to the dominance of carceral feminism (Angela Davis et al.<ref>[http://library.lol/main/018C1834DB2D87853010DEB45DC25067 Abolition. Feminism. Now.]</ref> 2022; Aya Gruber, 2020<ref>See Aya Gruber, ''The Feminist War on Crime: The Unexpected Role of Women's Liberation in Mass Incarceration'' (University of California Press, 2020).</ref>, etc.).<ref>Amia Srinivasan, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_to_Sex ''The Right to Sex: Feminism in the Twenty-First Century''] (Bloomsbury, 2021), pp. 170-71. [See [https://www.boychat.org/messages/1583018.htm quote on Boychat]]. [See [https://annas-archive.gl/md5/cb5d9c5ddef6afa61be6949bdac044d2 Annas Archive for PDF link]].</ref> It could be said that the loathing felt by some [[Minor Attracted People|MAPs]], particularly [[boylovers]] towards feminists as a group is similar in magnitude to the derision which present day feminists show towards boy-attracted males. For an account of activism against the MAP-youth rights organization NAMBLA, written by a self-identified feminist, see the 1992 issue of Women's magazine ''Off Our Backs'' [[Media:Off_Our_Backs_-_1992_-_Anti-NAMBLA_Activism.pdf|here]]. For a well-read and articulate feminist critique of common [[pro-c]] arguments, see the work of Sheila Jeffreys.<ref>See ‘PAEDOPHILIA’, in ''Anticlimax: A Feminist Perspective on the Sexual Revolution'' (1990), pp. 134-149.; CHAPTER 5 The Paedophile Liberation Movement, in ''Penile Imperialism: The Male Sex Right and Women's Subordination'' (2022).</ref>

==Reasons for loathing of "feminism" among MAPs==

A number of reasons can be speculatively offered:

* The role of feminists in the social purity movement of the Victorian era, and their role in raising the [[Age of Consent]]. Perception of feminism as a founder member of the [[child sexual abuse]] [[psychiatry]] agenda of the late 1970s, 80s and onwards, with the establishment of psychiatric organizations such as [[The Leadership Council]], sometimes fronted by suspected exclusionary feminists.
* Conflation of [[pederasty]] (a practice that brings with it a considerable historical tradition) with the fledgling [[incest]] model of [[Child Sexual Abuse]]. The perception that this generalization involves a knowing revision of that well-established history.
* Failure of feminists to explain experiences of [[boy]]s and [[boylover]]s that run contrary to those speculated in feminist critiques of intergenerational relationships.
* Failure of feminists to identify with or even tentatively address issues related to masculinity. Prof. [[John P. De Cecco]] argued that identity [[Wikipedia:Essentialism|essentialist]] feminists "are jealous of men who show the kind of nurturance that only females are supposed to posses".<ref>[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/File:John_de_cecco_paidika_issue_3_interview.pdf De Cecco Paidika interview (1987)] - (Archived PDF copy).</ref>
* The perception of modern feminism as female elitism ("feminazi", etc) and/or institutionalized model of covertly exercised authority.
* Attempts by feminists to represent (gay) youth and encourage their "rights" and "participation" whilst at the same time [[Ageism|infantalizing]] them and denying their autonomy.
* Alliances between radical feminists (TERFs/SWERFs) and violently anti-pedophile ideologies - particularly those of the right. These alliances have been rejuvenated after the [[MAP Movement]] achieved basic visibility in the 2020s.
* Plain misogyny.

Whilst many of these grievances may have more than a firm foothold in reality, it can certainly be said that their airing has done little good for the cause of [[boylove]] or MAPs in general.

===MAP-Exclusionary Radical Feminism===

A solution to the MAP/Feminism paradox might be to define a group of radical feminists who are particularly hostile towards MAPs, or motivated by hate. For example, in setting out care guidelines for survivors of CSA, [[UNICEF]] states "incest and '''paedophilia''' are forms of child sexual abuse shaped and perpetuated by patriarchal systems and harmful masculine ideologies"<ref>[https://www.unicef.org/media/155226/file/CCS%20Guidelines%20Final%20.pdf CARING FOR CHILD SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE GUIDELINES (2nd Ed)]</ref> (our emphasis), referencing Kelly and Lusk's 1992 "theories of pedophilia". This would be a clear use of feminist ideology to attack or malign an [[pedophilia|identity group]] or sexual orientation.

==Pro-choice/pro-youth Feminism reading list==

As mentioned earlier on, some contrary examples exist. A few potential starting points follow:

===1st-wave Feminism===

====[[Wikipedia:Emma Goldman|Emma Goldman]]====

Wikipedia states that Emma Goldman (June 27, 1869 – May 14, 1940) was an anarchist political activist and writer. She played a pivotal role in the development of anarchist political philosophy in North America and Europe in the first half of the 20th century.

<blockquote>
''When the child reaches adolescence, it meets, added to the home and school restrictions, with a vast amount of hard traditions of social morality. The cravings of love and sex are met with absolute ignorance by the majority of parents, who consider it as something indecent and improper, something disgraceful, almost criminal, to be suppressed and fought like some terrible disease. ''[...]'' Some will ask, what about weak natures, must they not be protected? Yes, but to be able to do that, it will be necessary to realize that education of children is not synonymous with herdlike drilling and training. If education should really mean anything at all, it must insist upon the free growth and development of the innate forces and tendencies of the child.''

'''Emma Goldman''', 'The Child and Its Enemies', in ''Mother Earth'', Vol. 1: No. 2 (April 1906).<ref>[https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-the-child-and-its-enemies Emma Goldman, 'The Child and Its Enemies', in ''Mother Earth'', Vol. 1: No. 2 (April 1906)]</ref></blockquote>

===2nd-wave Feminism===

====[[Wikipedia:Simone de Beauvoir|Simone de Beauvoir]]====

Beauvoir was a highly influential French public intellectual and a leading voice of 2nd wave feminism. She was a communist, existentialist, feminist author, interested in understanding and overcoming limitations on human freedom (what existentialists call living in “Bad Faith”). In the West, Beauvoir is best known for her life-long unconventional partnership with existentialist philosopher [[Wikipedia:Jean-Paul Sartre|Jean-Paul Sartre]], as well as her book “[[Wikipedia:The Second Sex|The Second Sex]]” (1949), often considered the starting inspiration point of second-wave feminism and a foundational text for social constructionist theories of gender, with its famous line: “one is not born, but rather, becomes a woman”. Beauvoir was one of the signatories of the [[Wikipedia:French petition against age of consent laws|French petition]] calling to abolish age of consent laws. Below we quote from scholarship below which explains her theories on childhood, and her sexual relationships with her young students.

<blockquote>
''In Beauvoir’s ongoing project to explore the possibility of moral freedom, childhood is repeatedly pinpointed as the moment when the greatest failure can occur. The child remains within the adult as a haunting, ‘dutiful’ presence of the past; furthering the situating fact of birth, childhood sets limitations for the individual. Children are born with a certain body, and within certain sociopolitical and cultural conditions; both condition the emergence of their subjectivity. For Beauvoir, early childhood experiences wound children by instilling in them a belief in essentialism and in unquestionable authorities. ''[...]'' In childhood, one is kept under the illusion, carefully created by adults, that universal moral principles exist.'' (p. 332). ''With astonishment, revolt and disrespect the child little by little asks himself, “Why must I act that way? What good is it? And what will happen if I act another way?” He discovers his subjectivity; he discovers that of others.’ (Beauvoir, Ethics of Ambiguity, 39). Teenage crisis, for Beauvoir, is precisely the shock of finding one’s questions unanswered, of having to accept one’s subjectivity and one’s potential independence from arbitrary adult prescriptions. By questioning the world, teenagers can extract themselves from the behaviours of bad faith encouraged by the ready-made judgements of their families and educators'' (pp. 335-336). '' ''[C]''hildhood itself becomes a space of ''[…]'' conflict between what is and what could be. Inquisitive, dissatisfied, suspicious: the child, for Beauvoir, embodies the fugitive vision that one can have of freedom and transcendence even as one is carefully conditioned to engage in bad faith. Her portrayal of childhood thus exacerbates a central tension of existentialism: the individual aspiration towards the future, clashing against a quickly solidifying situation'' (p. 336).

'''Clémentine Beauvais''', ‘Simone de Beauvoir and the Ambiguity of Childhood’, in ''Paragraph'', 38:3 (2015), 329–346.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3366/para.2015.0171 Clémentine Beauvais, ‘Simone de Beauvoir and the Ambiguity of Childhood’, in ''Paragraph'', 38:3 (2015), 329–346.]</ref><ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/44016387 Beauvais - Jstor]</ref>
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Beauvoir's posthumously published journals and letters from 1939-41 reveal that she engaged in sexual affairs with students and former students from her philosophy classes; she often led them to her hotel room to tutor them in philosophy and, eventually, take them to bed.'' (p. 149)

'''Margaret A. Simons''', ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism', in ''Signs'', 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174730 Margaret A. Simons, ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism', in ''Signs'', 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161.]</ref>
</blockquote>

====[[Wikipedia:Shulamith Firestone|Shulamith Firestone]]====

*Chapter 4 - 'Down With Childhood', in ''The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution'' (New York: Bantam Books, 1970).<ref>[http://library.lol/main/8F6A64276692ED9B5B5C1EE7EB9A2AD6 Chapter 4 - 'Down With Childhood', in ''The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution'' (New York: Bantam Books, 1970).]</ref>

Dr. Ohad Zehavi discusses Firestone's philosophy which sees 'childhood as hell', writing that:

<blockquote>
''According to Firestone, "sex forms a class division, but so does age. ''[...]'' Children, according to Firestone, are an oppressed group just like women: ‘children of every class are lower-class, just as women have always been’. This oppression is brought about not only by the vast segregation of children, primarily (but not exclusively) by means of the education system, but also by children’s economic dependency, by their constant subjection to external authority and by their overall disenfranchisement. ''[...]'' For Firestone both femininity and childhood are fabricated, constructed myths, and since both myths serve as bases for oppressive social regimes they both should – and could – be eradicated. As a result we would no longer recognise a person as man or woman, adult or child, thus ‘clearing the way for a fully “human” condition’".''

'''Ohad Zehavi''', 'Becoming-woman, becoming-child: A joint political programme' (pp. 242-243) in ''Feminism and the Politics of Childhood: Friends or Foes?''<ref>Ohad Zehavi, 'Becoming-woman, becoming-child: A joint political programme', in ''[http://library.lol/main/47E131B6508AC06DDBCBF4DC998AAE77 Feminism and the Politics of Childhood: Friends or Foes?]'', ed. by Rachel Rosen and Katherine Twamley (London: UCL Press, 2018), pp. 241-256.</ref>
</blockquote>

====[[Wikipedia:Germaine Greer|Germaine Greer]]====

In 1975, she wrote of the experience of one of her school friends:

<blockquote>
''Sexual intercourse between grown men and little girls is automatically termed rape under most codes of law. It does not matter whether the child invites it or even whether she seduces the adult; he and he only is guilty of a felony. From the child’s point of view and from the commonsense point of view, there is an enormous difference between intercourse with a willing little girl and the forcible penetration of the small vagina of a terrified child. One woman I know enjoyed sex with her uncle all through her childhood, and never realized that anything was unusual until she went away to school. What disturbed her then was not what her uncle had done but the attitude of her teachers and the school psychiatrist. They assumed that she must have been traumatized and disgusted and therefore in need of very special help. In order to capitulate to their expectation, she began to fake symptoms she did not feel, until at length she began to feel truly guilty for not having felt guilty. She ended up judging herself quite harshly for this innate lechery''

'''Germaine Greer''', [https://id.annas-archive.org/md5/9f290ff3e162eb802847c462e7e022a3 'Seduction is a Four-Letter Word'], in [[LeRoy G. Schultz]], ''Rape Victimology'', ed. by Shultz (Charles C. Thomas Publishers: Springfield, Illinois, U.S.A. 1975), p. 377.<ref>Also quoted in social worker Thomas D. Oellerich's scholarship. E.g. Oellerich, Thomas D. (2000), "[https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s12119-000-1027-3 Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman: Politically Incorrect - Scientifically Correct]", Sexuality and Culture, 4 (2): 67–81</ref>
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''A woman of taste is a pederast — boys rather than men.''

'''Germaine Greer''', from archived interview (2003).<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20080203035904/http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s946782.htm</ref>
</blockquote>

When asked about her book, ''The Beautiful Boy'',<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/imo-archive/books/beautiful.pdf ''The Beautiful Boy'' (London: Thames & Hudson, 2003) - Ipce PDF]</ref> Greer replies:

<blockquote>
''It's part of the joy of life is admiring the beauty of things that are beautiful. What is important to me about the Boy is that once upon a time his beauty was understood and celebrated by people of both sexes. A boy was allowed to dress in very bright colours, he was allowed to show himself off in the street, he dyed his hair, he wore make-up, ''[...]'' he wore tight pants and cropped jackets and so on. And the girls looked down from behind their jalousie and talked about the best-looking boys. Now, that's still evident in rock culture, where a lot of it is just straight sexual display.''

[Interviewer]: ''You said that one of the things that attracts you about boys was "semen that runs like tap water."''

[Greer]: ''That's not such a bad idea, is it girls? ''[...]'' I mean, the recharge time is remarkably short, which is a good thing. If what you want is a high level of excitement''</blockquote>

Greer also defended a UK female teacher, Helen Goddard, who had a [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|lesbian affair]] instigated by a 15-year old female student at her school. She wrote:

<blockquote>''So how old was she? How old was he? I don’t know and I don’t very much care. I know I’m supposed to care. I’m supposed to think that falling in love with people under the legal age of [[consent]] is evidence of deep perversion and vileness, but I don’t. Young people shouldn’t fall in love, you wish they wouldn’t, and yet they do, very often with someone rather older than they. The results are nearly always catastrophic, whether the love is returned or denied. When an old friend of mine was still a schoolboy, he climbed into the bed of his guardian, who he adored. His appalled guardian threw him out of the house. He swallowed rat-poison. I’m not supposed to talk about Helen Goddard’s victim as her lover. She’s not supposed to be capable of being anybody’s lover. She’s still not 16. She has tried to take the blame, she had admitted that it was she who first kissed Goddard, but it makes no odds. As a 15-year-old she was incapable of consent, let alone of seduction. In Shakespeare’s play of star-crossed love, we are told repeatedly that Juliet is 14. We don’t know how old Romeo is. There’s nothing to say he isn’t 27, like Helen Goddard. Yet it is Juliet who instigates the affair and precipitates the clandestine marriage and its consummation. And as for deceiving one’s parents, you can’t go a wholer hog than Juliet did. In a sane society lovers are protected from mutual self-immolation; in a crazy one they are driven to it.''

'''Germaine Greer''', in ‘Jazz Lady’s affair was foolish not evil; Falling for a minor is not evidence of perversion or vileness, says Germaine Greer’, ''The Times'' (London), September 23rd, 2009.
</blockquote>

====[[Wikipedia:Kate Millett|Kate Millett]]====

<blockquote>
''Part of the patriarchal family structure involves the control of the sexual life of children; indeed, the control of children totally. Children ''[…]'' have no money which, in a money-economy, is one of the most important sources of their oppression. Certainly, one of children’s essential rights is to express themselves sexually, probably primarily with each other but with adults as well. ''[…]'' The problem here is that ''[…]'' cross-generational relationships take place in a situation of inequality. Children are in a very precarious position when they enter into relationships with adults, not only in a concrete material sense but emotionally as well, because their personhood is not acknowledged in our society. ''[…]'' Of course, these relationships can be non-exploitative and, considering the circumstances, they are probably heroic and very wonderful; but we have to admit they can be exploitative as well'' (p. 83).

''What is really at issue is children’s rights and not, as it has been formulated up to now, merely the right of sexual access to children. ''[…]'' I would like to see a broader movement involving young people who would be making the decisions because it’s their issue and their fight.'' (pp. 84-85).

'''Kate Millett''', Sexual Revolution and the Liberation of Children: An Interview with Kate Millett by Mark Blasius, in ''Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia'', ed. by Marjan Sax and Sjuul Deckwitz, 2:8 (1992 {1980}), pp. 83-86.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20220319015646/https://www.brongersma.info/images/Paidika8.pdf Kate Millett, Sexual Revolution and the Liberation of Children: An Interview with Kate Millett by Mark Blasius, in ''Paidika: The Journal of Paedophilia'', ed. by Marjan Sax and Sjuul Deckwitz, 2:8 (1992 {1980}), pp. 83-86.]</ref>
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''Sex itself is presented as a crime to children. It is how adults control children, how they forbid them sexuality ''[...]'' Despite the degree of sexual activity that actually goes on among children, I think adults have been all too effective, not only in poisoning sexuality but also in preventing children from understanding or experiencing it."'' (p. 218).

''" ''[T]''he rhetoric and practice that surrounds children has abjured them since infancy to chastity. "Don't touch yourself there, that's nasty." ''[...]'' here is a little person who has been told that one whole section of the body has a crime attached to it. Imagine, "Never, never look at your left hand." It seems silly to children, of course, but power and force is conveyed by the phrase, "that's awful," principally because it is not explained. And the explanation that "it's dirty"? Well, thinks the child, obviously it isn't; I've taken a bath. What do they mean, it's dirty? So the taboo, because of its irrationality and mysterious quality, is yet more harmful. It attacks the whole system of mental confidence and reason itself.'' (p. 219).

''Parental policing of young females is the one great, unexamined oppression, not only in their lives but in our own as adult women. ''[...]'' Considering its possibilities, sexuality has been very effectively policed. Control works in stopping the behavior; where it doesn't work, it succeeds still because there is so much guilt; so much shame for whatever sexual activity does take place; so much fear of discovery that when sexually active children are discovered, squelched, and separated, control succeeds." ''[...]'' Since sexuality was forbidden knowledge, contraception is also forbidden, unfortunately; the culprits can become victims ''[of unwanted pregnancy]'' as well. ''[...]'' Adults create this pool of ignorance - and that is what it is: ignorance forced upon a group of young people, not innocence.'' (p. 220).

''Intergenerational sex could perhaps in the future be a wonderful opportunity for understanding between human beings. But conditions between adults and children preclude any sexual relationship that is not in some sense exploitative. This is not actually the fault of the adults involved, but of the entire social structure. To succeed, a relationship needs an egalitarian space and a balance between the two partners which it cannot by virtue of society have.” ''[...]'' It is difficult therefore to imagine the sexual emancipation of children without coming to understand how necessary are other forms of emancipation as well, all parts of progressive social change in years to come. That children have autonomy - that they do not belong to their biological parents, that they have a right to money, to a choice in where they live, that they are not property, that they are not slaves, that they belong to themselves - is a most revolutionary idea.'' (pp. 222-223).

'''Kate Millett''', Beyond Politics? Children and Sexuality, in ''Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality'', ed. by Carole S. Vance, 2nd edn., (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1992 {1984}), pp. 217–224.<ref>[http://library.lol/main/2CD4B6F851238A755DF8658453624FF0 Kate Millett, Beyond Politics? Children and Sexuality, in ''Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality'', ed. by Carole S. Vance, 2nd edn., (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1992 {1984}), pp. 217–224.]</ref>
</blockquote>

====[[Wikipedia:Andrea Dworkin|Andrea Dworkin]]====

Editors: Most surprisingly, as MAP activist [[Roger Moody]] pointed out (1986), Dworkin made supportive statements in her 1st published book ''Woman Hating'' (1974), in which she also supports the practice of incest and bestiality<ref>[https://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Andrea-DWORKIN-Woman-Hating-A-Radical-Look-at-Sexuality-1974.pdf '''Andrea Dworkin''', (1974). ''Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality'' (E.P. Dutton: Boston, Massachusetts)]. For example, Dworkin wrote:

"The parent-child relationship is primarily erotic because all human relationships are primarily erotic. The incest taboo is a particularized form of repression, one which functions as the bulwark of all the other repressions. The incest taboo ensures that however free we become, we never become genuinely free. The incest taboo, because it denies us essential fulfillment with the parents whom we love with our primary energy, forces us to internalize those parents and constantly seek them, or seek to negate them, in the minds, bodies, and hearts of other humans who are not our parents and never will be."

"The incest taboo does the worst work of the culture: it teaches us the mechanisms o f repressing and internalizing erotic feeling — it forces us to develop those mechanisms in the first place; it forces us to particularize sexual feeling, so that it congeals into a need for a particular sexual “object” ; it demands that we place the nuclear family above the human family. The destruction o f the incest taboo is essential to the development of cooperative human community based on the free-flow of natural androgynous eroticism." (p. 189)."

"In contemporary society relationships between people and other animals often reflect the sadomasochistic complexion of human relationship. Animals in our culture are often badly abused, the objects of violence and cruelty, the foil of repressed and therefore very dangerous human sexuality. Some animals, like horses and big dogs, become surrogate cocks, symbols of ideal macho virility. Needless to say, in androgynous community, human and other-animal relationships would become more explicitly erotic, and that eroticism would not degenerate into abuse." (p. 188).</ref> in a future "androgynous" society, before turning militantly against age-disparate eroticism in later years.

<blockquote>
''As for children, they too are erotic beings, closer to androgyny than the adults who oppress them. Children are fully capable of participating in community, and have every right to live out their own erotic impulses. In androgynous community, those impulses would retain a high degree of non-specificity and would no doubt show the rest of us the way into sexual self-realization. The distinctions between “children” and “adults,” and the social institutions which enforce those distinctions, would disappear as androgynous community develops.''

'''Andrea Dworkin''', (1974). ''Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality'' (E.P. Dutton: Boston, Massachusetts), p. 192.
</blockquote>

====[[Beatrice_Faust|Beatrice Faust]]====

<blockquote>
''Children cannot be wholly self-determining as long as factors like parental unemployment, poverty, or homelessness force them into prostitution or pornography. And they cannot exercise satisfactory self-determination without adequate sex education. Women and homosexuals, as well as children and child-lovers, are oppressed by the view that procreational sex is the only erotic activity that rates the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. ''[...]'' But this view cannot survive the economic pressure for fewer children and the technocracy's demand for less, but better educated workers.'' (p. 114).

'''Beatrice Faust''', (1986). 'The paedophiles', in [[The_Betrayal_of_Youth_(Book)|''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'']], ed. by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London), pp. 107-115.<ref>[https://library.lol/main/D3E65600BCD53F898EE99AEBF6BCBC24 Faust, B. (1986). 'The paedophiles', in ''The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People'', Edited by Warren Middleton (CL Publications: London), pp. 107-115.]</ref>
</blockquote>

<blockquote>
'' ''[T]''he so-called Sexual Revolution, and the emergence of the Women's Liberation Movement from the New Left, is a serendipitous experiment: women were given strong permissions to enjoy sex with the same frequency and on the same terms as men, and they rejected the notion, retreating into lesbianism, radical celibacy, puritanism and traditionally feminine models of sex. Even at the outset of the so-called sexual revolution, boys began intercourse earlier than girls and found sexual activity more satisfying ''[…]'' Girls mature physically before boys but boys seek sexual knowledge and experience earlier and more actively than girls (cruising). This being so, it seems that a uniform age of consent law for both sexes and/or an age of consent law that does not allow for the possibility of a consensual relationship will be discriminatory against boys and damaging for some children of both sexes. The Netherlands provides a model that avoids this risk.'' (p. 83).

'''Beatrice Faust''', (1995). "Child sexuality and age of consent laws: The Netherlands model." Australasian Gay and Lesbian Law Journal, 5, pp. 78-85.<ref>[[Media:(1995) Faust - Child Sexuality and AOC - The Netherlands Model.pdf|Beatrice Faust, (1995). "Child sexuality and age of consent laws: The Netherlands model." Australasian Gay and Lesbian Law Journal, 5, pp. 78-85.]]</ref>
</blockquote>

====[[Stevi Jackson]]====

<blockquote>
[A] ''great deal of effort is spent in keeping children childish. Not being encouraged towards independence, they remain dependent; unused to looking after themselves, they stay vulnerable; having their smallest needs fulfilled by adults, they are often unable to perform simple tasks well within their capabilities. Children are frequently sent to school unable to dress themselves at an age when, in other societies and in earlier days of our own, they would be beginning to make a real contribution to the life and work of their community. If a child expresses interest in adult affairs or engages in adult pursuits it is thought unusual, even extraordinary. Children who behave like adults are regarded as at best amusing and at worst thoroughly obnoxious. If we were not so interested in nurturing immaturity, would the word 'precocious' have become an insult?'' (p. 27).

''The activities and interests of children in other societies may contrast sharply with our ideas of what is natural or appropriate for them. We would find it strange for a boy of six or seven to be preoccupied with financial provision for his marriage, yet this is considered natural among the Tallensi. We would not expect a child of this age to be making a real contribution to the economic survival of the community, yet this is commonplace in many simpler societies. ''[...]'' It is unusual for five-year-olds in our society to be fully aware of the facts of human sex and reproduction, but elsewhere this is normal.''

''Despite all the different forms of childhood that exist throughout the world, our society might be singled out as distinctly odd'' (p. 29).

[...] ''Given the connections between the status of women and children, the ideas of the women's liberation movement should help us to raise questions about the status of children and the adult power wielded over them, and to consider the possibility of redefining their sexuality. It is because we keep children dependent, vulnerable and asexual that women come to share these qualities. It is because only the male sex learns to break free from these bonds that men become more autonomous than women. It is because male autonomy is associated with power and aggression that men maintain control over women and that the need is created to 'protect' women and children. We need to question whether our apparent concern for children, our protectiveness I towards them, is just a subtle form of oppression, as it is with women.''

[...] ''I will now commit the final heresy by stating clearly my belief that we do more harm than good in enforcing sexual ignorance on children. In attempting to protect children from sex we expose them to danger, in trying to preserve their innocence we expose them to guilt. In keeping both sexes asexual, and then training them to become sexual in different ways, we perpetuate sexual inequality, exploitation and oppression.'' (p. 180).

'''Stevi Jackson'''. ''Childhood and Sexuality'' (Basil Blackwell: Oxford, 1982).<ref>[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/File:1982_Jackson_Childhood_and_Sexuality.pdf Childhood and Sexuality] (click for archived PDF)</ref>
</blockquote>

===Resisting Anti-Porn Feminism===

Some feminist thought supportive of intergenerational rights came during what anthropologist [[Gayle Rubin]] called "The Feminist Sex Wars," where sex-positive feminists (e.g. Strossen<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/1073402 Strossen 1993]</ref>,; Echols<ref>[https://doi.org/10.2307/466453 Echols, 1983]</ref>) resisted attempts to legally define all pornography as tantamount to rape (see [[Debate_Guide:_Porn_is_the_theory,_rape_is_its_practise|"Porn is the theory, rape is its practise"]] and West<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/828376 West, 1987]</ref>; Linz et al.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/828377 Linz, 1987]</ref>; Schauer<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/828378 Schauer, 1987]</ref>; <ref>[https://openyls.law.yale.edu/handle/20.500.13051/7029 Fischel, 2010]</ref>) and prohibit/criminalize sex work (such feminists are now called "SWERFs"<ref>[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/SWERF) SWERF - Wiktionary]</ref>) under the banner of "feminism." Some relevant readings below:

*Nettie Pollard, 'The Small Matter of Children,' in ''Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism'', ed. by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol (Boulder, Colorado: Pluto Press, 1993), pp. 105-111.<ref>''Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The Challenge to Reclaim Feminism'', ed. by Alison Assiter and Avedon Carol (Boulder, Colorado: Pluto Press, 1993). [[https://www.jstor.org/stable/jj.38401871.21 Jstor] link]. [[https://annas-archive.gl/md5/38138de0c0ef229d5cd9075b1661275a Annas Archive PDF] link].</ref>

*Brenda Cossman, Shannon Bell, Lise Gotell, Becki Ross, ''Bad Attitude/s on Trial: Pornography, Feminism, and the Butler Decision'' (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1997). [[Shannon Bell]]'s chapter, ''The image cannot be seen'', includes her interview with [[Matthew McGowan]], a Canadian hustler and poet who stood trial for having filmed himself and 2 male friends who were 14-years-old and thus had reached the national [[age of consent]] at the time, engaging in [[Research:_Secondary_Harm#Self-appraisal_of_abuse,_Self-Perception_and_"Consent"|mutually willing (consensual)]] vanilla sex the year prior, when McGowan was 22 years-old. Canadian law changed to make depictions of sexual activity involving people who appear to be under 18 illegal, meaning that their sex was legal but filming was not. In her chapter, Bell interprets Canada's then-recent change in porn law through the lens of moral panic, and criticizes the obfuscation, denial and silencing of young people's voices by 'expert' truth claims:

<blockquote>''The hysteria mounts the closer the sexual activity gets to or can be portrayed as getting to children. Perhaps that is why 'seventeen year olds at the height of their sexual powers are called children' (CBC, 1994, 38) in the London porn panic. The media played up the hysteria [...]
As the research coordinator at the London Family Court Clinic explains: 'victim impact statements are written by clinicians who have a lot of experience in child victimization.' There is 'the victim's version of the story' and 'what we think it means' (Ibid., 40)'' (p. 207, p. 211).<ref>[https://www.google.at/books/edition/Bad_Attitude_s_on_Trial/KfTtZl-hrBsC?hl=de&gbpv=1&dq=Bad+Attitude%5Cs+on+Trial:+Pornography,+Feminism+and+the+Butler+Decision&pg=PA3&printsec=frontcover Cossman, 1997]</ref></blockquote>

===Contemporary 3rd/4th Wave Feminism===

*'''[[Judith Butler]]'''

<blockquote>
'' ''[T]''o understand the violation that incest can be—and also to distinguish between those occasions of incest that are violation and those that are not—it is unnecessary to figure the body of the child exclusively as a surface imposed upon from the outside. ''[...]'' So I keep adding this qualification: “when incest is a violation,” suggesting that I think that there may be occasions in which it is not. Why would I talk that way? Well, I do think that there are probably forms of incest that are not necessarily traumatic or which gain their traumatic character by virtue of the consciousness of social shame that they produce. ''[...]'[T]''he very existence of a taboo against incest presumes that a family structure is already there, for how else would one understand the prohibition on sexual relations with members of one’s own family without a prior conception of family?'' [Explanation<ref>One commentator on heretictoc.com wrote: “Under what exact conditions is incest “not necessarily traumatic”?”

Butler elaborates on the following pages that the concept of “incest” can only exist as long as there’s the concept of the white heterosexual middle-class family. After all, without the idea of a “family” what does incest even mean? Therefore, incest is, according to Butler, not inherently traumatic.

Or to give a concrete example that I believe most people would agree upon is not traumatic, let’s think of two siblings who are infertile and who have sex with each other but neither they themselves nor anyone else is aware that they are indeed relatives. This is what Butler means by “not necessarily traumatic”.</ref>]

'''Judith Butler''', 'Quandaries of the Incest Taboo', in ''Undoing Gender'' (Routledge: New York, 2004), pp. 152-161 (quoting pp. 155-157).</blockquote>

<blockquote>
''At what age is consent to sexual relations permissible? Indeed, the views on this matter are quite diverse, and they differ according to country and gender, according to whether the law seeks to end sexual trafficking, whether the law is acknowledging customs regarding child brides, and whether the kind of sex is permissible or not: So age of consent laws vary according to whether sexual practice is deemed heterosexual or homosexual, or within marriage or before marriage. In most cases, sexuality is presumed by such legal codes to be heterosexual, so the lack of a differential regulation between straight and not straight sex is less a sign of equal treatment, than of the unthinkability of non-heterosexual law within the legal codes regulating sexuality — after all, even prohibiting homosexual sex is a way of acknowledging that it exists.'' (p. 5).

"''We are used to hearing that there are [[consent]]ing adults and then there are those who are incompetent to consent. But perhaps incompetence is part of the very process of "yes"-saying. We are not competent to know all the future consequences of the sexual relations to which we say "yes," or to which we willingly or ambivalently acquiesce. We are never fully active, knowing, and competently predictive at such moments. We open, sometimes in spite of ourselves, to a future we cannot fully control, even though we can steer and direct and try to give it shape in one way or another to the best or our abilities. Perhaps the opposite of the subject of consent is not the subject who is too young or too inexperienced or suffering incompetence. Although there are cases where that is legally right, to be sure, we have to remember that something of childhood persists in adult sexuality, making us more vulnerable or less knowing than we might like, that a certain incompetence pervades our efforts to predict in advance how things will go, and that even a certain inexperience is there at the outset of sexual encounter and in its midst. The juridical ''[legal]'' subject of [[consent]] rules out the humility of unknowingness without which we cannot really understand sexuality. We can, as the former Antioch College rules of sexual conduct tried to do, make every sexual act discussable between two people in advance and a settled matter of consent before embarking on any touch. At such moments, the law has pervaded sexual encounter; the law has drenched our discourse. We expect knowingness precisely at those moments when unknowingness is inseparable from sexuality itself. The law then functions as a defense against the unknown, and tell me: who would have sex if it were really known in advance exactly what it would be like?'' (pp. 24-25).

'''Judith Butler'''. (2011). 'Sexual Consent: Some Thoughts on Psychoanalysis and Law', in ''Columbia Journal of Gender and Law'', Vol. 21 No. 2, pp. 3-27.<ref>[[File:Judith_Butler_-_2011_-_Sexual_Consent_-_Psychoanalysis_and_Law.pdf|Archived PDF of Sexual Consent: Some Thoughts on Psychoanalysis and Law]] (internal link). This paper is based on a paper presented in 2011, which was filmed and has been archived [https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/10j9 here] and [https://vimeo.com/22547545 here].</ref>
</blockquote>

Other feminist writers of interest are listed below:

*[https://library.lol/main/99099C4003BC144DCA222C5D34D84A6C Kids Club Anthology #2 - ''She said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminist Speak Out about Youthlove''] - This anthology (2019) collects material on sexual attraction to youth, youth sexuality, age-gap relationships, and the age of consent written by young gay people, women, lesbians, and feminist, from the late 70s to the mid-90s.
*Danielle Egan, Gail Hawkes, and Emma Renold - these 3 contemporary feminists tend to co-author together, criticizing panic discourses over the [[sexualization]] of young people that neglect to take account of young people's voices and agency
*Children, Sexuality and Sexualization, ed. by Emma Renold et al., (Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan, 2015).<ref>[https://archive.org/details/renold-sexualization Children, Sexuality and Sexualization]</ref>
*Danielle Egan, Becoming Sexual: A Critical Appraisal of the Sexualization of Girls (Cambridge: Polity Press, 2013) (Book)<ref>[http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=15C2F2D9BE951828DE35ADF89A61552B Becoming Sexual (Book) on libgen]</ref>.
*Danielle Egan and Gail L. Hawkes, ‘Endangered Girls and Incendiary Objects: Unpacking the Discourse on Sexualization’, in Sexuality and Culture, 12 (2008), 291–311.
*Gail Hawkes and Danielle Egan, ‘Landscapes of Erotophobia: The Sexual(ized) Child in The Postmodern Anglophone West’, in Sexuality and Culture, 12 (2008), 193–203.
*Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes, ‘The problem with protection: Or, why we need to move towards recognition and the sexual agency of children’, in Continuum, 23:3 (2009), 289-400.
*Danielle Egan and Gail Hawkes, [https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/09540253.2012.666232 "Sexuality, youth and the perils of endangered innocence: how history can help us get past the panic"], in Gender and Education, 24(3) (2012), 269–284.
*Emma Renold and Jessica Ringrose, ‘Schizoid Subjectivities? Re- theorizing Teen-Girls’ Sexual Cultures in an Era of ‘Sexualization,’ in Journal of Sociology, 47:4 (2011), 389–409.
*Emma Renold and Jessica Ringrose, ‘Feminisms re-figuring ‘sexualization’, sexuality and ‘the girl’, in Feminist Theory, 14:3 (2013), 247-254.
*Deborah L. Tolman, ‘Doing Desire: Adolescent Girls’ Struggles for/with Sexuality’, in Gender and Society, 8:3 (1994), 324–342.
*Laina Y. Bay-Cheng and Amanda E. Lewis, 'Our “Ideal Girl”: Prescriptions of Female Adolescent Sexuality in a Feminist Mentorship Program', in Affilia: Journal of Women and Social Work, 21:1 (2006), 71-83.<ref>https://doi.org/10.1177/0886109905283137</ref>
*Nancy Whittier, ''The Politics of Child Sexual Abuse: Emotion, Social Movements, and the State'' (Oxford University Press, 2011).<ref>[https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Child-Sexual-Abuse-Movements/dp/0199783314 Nancy Whittier, ''The Politics of Child Sexual Abuse: Emotion, Social Movements, and the State'' (Oxford University Press, 2011).]</ref>
*Joseph J. Fischel, 'Catharine MacKinnon’s Wayward Children', in ''differences'', 30:1 (2019), pp. 34-54.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1215/10407391-7481204 Joseph J. Fischel, 'Catharine MacKinnon’s Wayward Children', in ''differences'', 30:1 (2019), pp. 34-54.]</ref>
*Feona Attwood, ‘Sluts and Riot Grrrls: Female Identity and Sexual Agency’, in Journal of Gender Studies, 16:3 (2007), 233–247.
*Kari Lerum and Shari L. Dworkin, ‘Sexual Agency is not a Problem of Neoliberalism: Feminism, Sexual Justice, and the Carceral Turn’, in Sex Roles, 73 (2015), 311-319.
*Lynne M. Phillips, ‘Recasting Consent: Agency and Victimization in Adult-Teen Relationships’, in ''New Versions of Victims: Feminists Struggle with the Concept'', ed. by Sharon Lamb (New York: New York University Press, 1999), pp. 82-108.<ref>[http://library.lol/main/399EA11DCC241D1A5275970C15BDFB2C New Versions of Victims]</ref>
*Michelle Fine, Sexuality, Schooling, and Adolescent Females: The Missing Discourse of Desire, in Harvard Educational Review, 58:1 (1988), 29–54<ref>https://doi.org/10.17763/haer.58.1.u0468k1v2n2n8242</ref>; Cf. Fine, X. Desire: The Morning (and 15 years) After, in Feminism & Psychology, 15:1 (2005), 54-60.<ref>https://doi.org/10.1177/0959353505049708</ref>
*Lynda Marin, Mother and Child: The Erotic Bond, in ''Mother's Journeys: Feminists Write about Mothering'', ed. by Maureen T. Reddy, Martha Roth, Amy Sheldon, (Spinsters Ink, Minneapolis, 1994), pp. 9-21.<ref>http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/MaCTEB.html</ref>
* [[Marjan Sax]] and Sjuul Deckwitz, 'You Learn Better on An Old Bicycle: Erotic and Sexual Relations Between Women and Minors', in ''[[Paidika]]: The Journal of Paedophilia'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's lssue, pp. 2-13. [Newgon: Marjan Sax is listed as a "feminst sex activist, political scientist, and writer"].
* Jo Bridgeman and Daniel Monk, “Introduction: Reflections on the Relationship between Feminism and Child Law,” in ''Feminist Perspectives on Child Law'', ed. Jo Bridgeman and Daniel Monk (London: Cavendish, 2000).<ref>[http://library.lol/main/676071FAB671AE21153A9D87680FFC37 Feminist Perspectives on Child Law PDF]</ref>
*[[Wikipedia:Carol Tavris|Carol Tavris]], Beware the Incest-Survivor Machine, in the ''New York Times'' (1993)<ref>https://web.archive.org/web/20150419234012/https://www.nytimes.com/1993/01/03/books/beware-the-incest-survivor-machine.html?pagewanted=1</ref>; Tavris, The uproar over sexual abuse research and its findings, in ''Society'' (2000).<ref>https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00-018_uproar.htm</ref> [Responds to the [[Rind_et_al|Rind et al controversy]]].
*Yasmin Nair,<ref>[https://yasminnair.com/about-2/ Yasmin Nair: About]</ref> feminist/queer activist and author, co-edited ''Against Equality'' <ref>[http://library.lol/main/DD4D1C4C3CE07971C2DE09315132F098 Against Equality]</ref> (2014), including contributions from early MAP/Youth Rights advocates including Bill Andriette and John P. De Cecco. On her personal website, Nair published relevant articles, including: Can We Talk?: Censorship, Pedophilia, and Panic, in ''Wind City Times'' (2005).<ref>https://yasminnair.com/can-we-talk-censorship-pedophilia-and-panic-16-november-2005/</ref>; From Queer To Gay: The Rise and Fall of Milo <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[Milo Yiannopoulos|Yiannopoulos]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>, self-published (2017)<ref>https://yasminnair.com/from-queer-to-gay-the-rise-and-fall-of-milo/</ref>. In ''Adopting Difference: Race, Sex, and the Archaeology of Power in the Farrow-Allen Case'' (published in 2014, reproduced online in 2020)<ref>https://yasminnair.com/adopting-difference-race-sex-and-the-archaeology-of-power-in-the-farrow-allen-case-3/</ref>, Nair argued that critics tended to avoid or downplay the power Mia Farrow wielded over Woody Allen and their children.

For Nair, Mia Farrow:

<blockquote>''successfully painted herself as a powerless woman wounded by a powerful and wealthy man. Allen is certainly wealthy and powerful, but Farrow has a lineage in Hollywood that is much older than his, and possesses tremendous political and cultural influence. Much of her power has manifested in the ways that she has managed to even change the law to enable her to satisfy her urge to adopt.''</blockquote>

==Commentary==

[[BoyChat]] contributor, '''Anacreon''':

<blockquote>''Historically, from what I've read I get the impression that the earliest modern feminism, which got started about two hundred years ago on the heels of the French Revolution, was probably a liberating idea. The early Romantics who espoused it, for instance the poet Percy Shelley and his wife Mary, associated it with free love and equality of the sexes within the context of a generally emancipated state of society. These people were wild radicals, the hippies of their day, and so alienated from mainstream society that they felt compelled to leave their native England.''

''Later on something horrible happened. I suspect it was probably Victorianism. Decades after the high Romantic period, when feminism got started again in the late nineteenth century following a long hiatus, it emerged as a deeply bourgeois movement in the worst sense of that term. It was intensely puritanical, and oriented toward controlling male behavior. It became associated with the "temperance" movement and suppression of "vice," meaning chiefly prostitution. In the United States it involved itself in the ultimately successful push for Prohibition, a disaster that brought terrible troubles with organized crime that plague us to this day.''

''So I guess you could say that feminism went bad when it became respectable. In this sense it resembles the gay movement, which from the viewpoint of boylovers joined the oppressor when it opted for assimilation and so decided to eject undesirables. Contemporary feminism seems to me to be entirely modeled on the second, Victorian version of itself, not at all on the first. Modern feminists are interested in domination rather than in freedom, obsessed with control through the infantilization of everyone in sight, and fanatically eager to wield the gelding knife. So as you rightly observe their movement operates generally as a viciously regressive force, often the unacknowledged ally of rabid fundamentalism.''<ref>http://boychat.org/messages/1147733.htm</ref></blockquote>

U.S. historian '''Beryl Satter''':<ref>https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704895 Satter, 2003</ref>

<blockquote>''it is undeniable that feminists and therapists with feminist sympathies elaborated and promoted the sexual abuse paradigm." (p. 426). American clinical psychologist [[Wikipedia:Jan Haaken|Janice Haaken]], Satter explains, "interprets sexual abuse accusations as a complex phenomenon encompassing women's desire to speak the hidden truths of their lives and express rage at a broad range of "boundary violations" that are the lot of most women. According to Haaken, sexual abuse accusations symbolize women's rebellion against their fathers and against expectations that they should remain loyal to their families. These accusations express forbidden emotional and sexual fantasies and might also express conflicts between women that are repressed in some feminist circles.'' (''Ibid'').</blockquote>

Similar to Richard Beck (see Breland, 2019<ref>[https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/07/why-are-right-wing-conspiracies-so-obsessed-with-pedophilia/ Breland, 2009]</ref>), Satter argues that the sexual abuse paradigmn rose to prominence during the 1980s due to its use across the political spectrum in a time of economic upheaval, of which warring feminist factions were only one force of many:

<blockquote>''Historically, crusades to "save the children" emerge at the moment when progressive movements are beginning to falter. This fits the 1980s context. As social programs serving families were severely reduced, sexual abuse narratives were one way to speak about family pain. Ultimately, the crusades against child abuse gained support from all sides: from feminists ''[...]'' and liberals ''[...]''; conservatives anxious about sexual hedonism and evangelical Christians anxious about sexual sin; therapists, attorneys, and criminologists who sought to expand their professional authority; a sensation-hungry media seeking new sexual narratives; and politicians seeking a cause sure to attract support. In addition, Reagan and Bush officials promoted the idea that the greatest threat to American children was pornography rather than poverty. They funded reports on child abuse and widely disseminated the most extreme claims about the sexual victimization of children.'' (p. 452).</blockquote>

==See also==

*[[Intergenerational Lesbianism]]
*[[Wikipedia:Radical feminism|Radical feminism]] - Wikipedia.
*[[Wikipedia:Sex-positive feminism|Sex-positive feminism]] - Wikipedia.
*[[Masculism]]

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:Child Advocacy]][[Category:Sociological Theory]][[Category:Terminology]][[Category:Terminology: Academic]][[Category:Terminology: Popular]][[Category:Prostitution]]

Intergenerational Lesbianism

2026-07-01T02:18:48Z

Prue:

{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__'''Intergenerational Lesbianism''', sometimes called '''Korephilia'''<ref>[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]</ref> is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love".

==Etymology and History==

The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love". The word ''lesbian'' itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of ''Lesbos'', where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.<ref>[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] ''NAMBLA Bulletin'', Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in ''Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin''. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 ''Sappho: The Tenth Muse''] (author unknown).</ref> Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, "How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:

<blockquote>
''Sappho, if you will not get up''

''and let us look at you''

''I shall never love you again''

''Get up, unleash your suppleness''

''lift off your Chian nightdress''<ref>(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).</ref>
</blockquote>

[...] One does not berate one's teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked."<ref>Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>

Frankel argued that "Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]". She ends with Sappho's blessing:

<blockquote>
''The gods bless you''

''May you sleep then''

''On some tender''

''girl friend's breast.''<ref>(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==

There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. "The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could" from "[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]]," recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl's relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|''Blue Is the Warmest Colour'']], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic.

Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and ''Body Politic'' writer Chris Bearchell,<ref>Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three..." A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. ''The Body Politic'', May 1978.</ref> lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],<ref>[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on "Women/Girl Love" - Or, Lesbians Do "Do It". ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O'Carroll, ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' (1980)].</ref> and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, "Teaching Sexuality". ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.</ref> It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a 'phase'. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the '[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]', and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.<ref>Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. ''The New Yorker'', September 11, 2023].</ref> It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy.

In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are "more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have"<ref name="paidika 8">[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]</ref>. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, "It’s possible," Millett explained, "that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners" (''Ibid'').

Writing in Toronto's ''The Body Politic'', lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed ''[[The Age Taboo]]'' (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|''The Man they Called a Monster'']] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was "impressed by the lucidity" of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]'s arguments, "by his politeness, courage, and stamina" after having invited and heard him speak at a 'Gay Cambridge' event, and lamented the "silenced women" afraid of speaking out after "the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them."<ref>''The Body Politic'', No. 84 (June, 1982).</ref> Donald recalls "a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences." She states that "Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend," and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend's mother at 8.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the "paedosexual taboo," might be "felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand." Because of their special closeness [to young people]," Knopf argued, "the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men" (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that "Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment."<ref>Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (''New Statesman'', 16 Sept, 1977).</ref>

Ultimately, Berlin's female intergenerational rights organization ("Kanalratten" meaning "Sewer Rats") - which had published a manifesto<ref name="paidika 8" /> - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.

In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, "no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl," could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the "love between adults and children", and said she wanted "to do everything to change such laws." After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP's campaign]</ref>

Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'' - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer's will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:

<blockquote>''I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue."<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]</ref>''</blockquote>

Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book ''A Restricted Country'' (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):

<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.''

''While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''
</blockquote><ref>See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Many editions available.</ref>

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. <ref>[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]</ref>
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] (commonly cited but rarely used symbol)
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...". ''The Body Politic'', May 1978. Reprint from ''Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed''.
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in ''The Body Politic''.

</gallery>

==Research literature==

*Amanda H. Littauer, ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'', in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1 (2020), 95-108.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]</ref>

*Marion E.P. de Ras, ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934'' (Routledge, 2008).<ref>Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].</ref><ref>For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, "The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?", in ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'' 5:1 (1994), 90–114.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]</ref>

*Marina Knopf, "Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children", in ''Paidika'', Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).<ref>[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].</ref>

*''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, ''Interview'' in ''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

*Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].</ref>

* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, 'Female Paedophilia', in ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]'' (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].

*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction", in ''International Journal of Greek Love'', Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.<ref>[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]</ref>

*Jenn McCollum, "The Romance of Henry James's Female Pedophile, in ''MP: An Online Feminist Journal'', Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).<ref>[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].</ref>

==See also==

*[[Pederasty]]
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.

==External Links==

*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.

===Personal perspectives===

*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly's testimony]
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]
[[Category:Gay]]
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]
[[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]]

Intergenerational Lesbianism

2026-07-01T02:18:03Z

Prue:

{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__'''Intergenerational Lesbianism''', sometimes called '''Korephilia'''<ref>[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]</ref> is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love".

==Etymology and History==

The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love". The word ''lesbian'' itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of ''Lesbos'', where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.<ref>[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] ''NAMBLA Bulletin'', Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in ''Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin''. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 ''Sappho: The Tenth Muse''] (author unknown).</ref> Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, "How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:

<blockquote>
''Sappho, if you will not get up''

''and let us look at you''

''I shall never love you again''

''Get up, unleash your suppleness''

''lift off your Chian nightdress''<ref>(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).</ref>
</blockquote>

[...] One does not berate one's teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked."<ref>Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>

Frankel argued that "Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]". She ends with Sappho's blessing:

<blockquote>
''The gods bless you''

''May you sleep then''

''On some tender''

''girl friend's breast.''<ref>(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==

There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. "The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could" from "[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]]," recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl's relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|''Blue Is the Warmest Colour'']], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic.

Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and ''Body Politic'' writer Chris Bearchell,<ref>Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three..." A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. ''The Body Politic'', May 1978.</ref> lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],<ref>[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on "Women/Girl Love" - Or, Lesbians Do "Do It". ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O'Carroll, ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' (1980)].</ref> and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, "Teaching Sexuality". ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.</ref> It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a 'phase'. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the '[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]', and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.<ref>Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. ''The New Yorker'', September 11, 2023].</ref> It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy.

In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are "more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have"<ref name="paidika 8">[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]</ref>. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, "It’s possible," Millett explained, "that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners" (''Ibid'').

Writing in Toronto's ''The Body Politic'', lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed ''[[The Age Taboo]]'' (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|''The Man they Called a Monster'']] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was "impressed by the lucidity" of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]'s arguments, "by his politeness, courage, and stamina" after having invited and heard him speak at a 'Gay Cambridge' event, and lamented the "silenced women" afraid of speaking out after "the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them."<ref>''The Body Politic'', No. 84 (June, 1982).</ref> Donald recalls "a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences." She states that "Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend," and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend's mother at 8.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the "paedosexual taboo," might be "felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand." Because of their special closeness [to young people]," Knopf argued, "the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men" (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that "Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment."<ref>Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (''New Statesman'', 16 Sept, 1977).</ref>

Ultimately, Berlin's female intergenerational rights organization ("Kanalratten" meaning "Sewer Rats") - which had published a manifesto<ref name="paidika 8" /> - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.

In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, "no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl," could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the "love between adults and children", and said she wanted "to do everything to change such laws." After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP's campaign]</ref>

Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'' - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer's will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:

<blockquote>''I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue."<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]</ref>''</blockquote>

Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book ''A Restricted Country'' (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):

<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex.

While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''
</blockquote><ref>See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Many editions available.</ref>

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. <ref>[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]</ref>
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] (commonly cited but rarely used symbol)
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...". ''The Body Politic'', May 1978. Reprint from ''Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed''.
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in ''The Body Politic''.

</gallery>

==Research literature==

*Amanda H. Littauer, ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'', in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1 (2020), 95-108.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]</ref>

*Marion E.P. de Ras, ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934'' (Routledge, 2008).<ref>Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].</ref><ref>For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, "The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?", in ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'' 5:1 (1994), 90–114.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]</ref>

*Marina Knopf, "Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children", in ''Paidika'', Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).<ref>[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].</ref>

*''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, ''Interview'' in ''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

*Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].</ref>

* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, 'Female Paedophilia', in ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]'' (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].

*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction", in ''International Journal of Greek Love'', Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.<ref>[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]</ref>

*Jenn McCollum, "The Romance of Henry James's Female Pedophile, in ''MP: An Online Feminist Journal'', Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).<ref>[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].</ref>

==See also==

*[[Pederasty]]
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.

==External Links==

*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.

===Personal perspectives===

*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly's testimony]
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]
[[Category:Gay]]
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]
[[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]]

Intergenerational Lesbianism

2026-07-01T02:17:17Z

Prue: /* Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature */

{{Template:MAI}}__NOTOC__'''Intergenerational Lesbianism''', sometimes called '''Korephilia'''<ref>[https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/25498618 Wiktionary diff for Korephilia, with critical citations]</ref> is an age-gap relationship (similar to [[pederasty]]), but between a woman and a younger female / [[girl]]. The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love".

==Etymology and History==

The word ''korephilia'' comes from the Greek words κόρη kórē meaning "girl" and φιλία philíā meaning "love". The word ''lesbian'' itself is an allusion to Sappho, originating from the name of the island of ''Lesbos'', where she was born. Sappho was a teacher and priestess of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sexual passion, and was said to have had consensual sexual contact with her female adolescent students.<ref>[https://www.nambla.org/sappho.htm Linda Frankel, Sappho Was a Right-On Girl-Lover!] ''NAMBLA Bulletin'', Vol. 4, No. 3, Pg. 9, 1983. Also reprinted in ''Not Fade Away: Selections from the NAMBLA Bulletin''. For further discussion, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4689#p4689 ''Sappho: The Tenth Muse''] (author unknown).</ref> Writing for [[NAMBLA]], Linda Frankel explained, "How do we know how the girls felt about it? Sappho quotes her student Atthis as saying:

<blockquote>
''Sappho, if you will not get up''

''and let us look at you''

''I shall never love you again''

''Get up, unleash your suppleness''

''lift off your Chian nightdress''<ref>(Fragment 43 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958).</ref>
</blockquote>

[...] One does not berate one's teacher for refusing to get undressed unless one happens to like looking at her naked."<ref>Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>

Frankel argued that "Sexual relationships between student and teacher that involved mutual consent were actually considered in a positive light. Learning intimacy from an experienced adult was considered beneficial for the young and a significant part of their education. [...] If the lesbian community of today were aware that their foremother, Sappho, was a lover of girls, they might not be so quick to condemn [[NAMBLA]]". She ends with Sappho's blessing:

<blockquote>
''The gods bless you''

''May you sleep then''

''On some tender''

''girl friend's breast.''<ref>(Fragment 96 in SAPPHO: A NEW TRANSLATION by Mary Barnard, University of California Press 1958), quoted in Frankel, Op. cit.</ref>
</blockquote>

==Korephilia in Modern and Feminist literature==

There have been recent depictions of Intergenerational Lesbianism in [[Minor_attraction_in_popular_culture|popular culture]]. "The Little Coochie Snorcher That Could" from "[[Wikipedia:The Vagina Monologues|The Vagina Monologues]]," recounts the experience of a thirteen year old girl's relationship with an older woman. The 2013 film [[Wikipedia:Blue Is the Warmest Colour|''Blue Is the Warmest Colour'']], depicts the friendship between a fifteen year old girl and an adult woman that becomes erotic.

Well-known examples in English-speaking literature come from the gay world, including the influential Canadian gay liberation activist and ''Body Politic'' writer Chris Bearchell,<ref>Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three..." A Feminist Look at the Place of Female Child-Adult Relations in the Politics of the Lesbian Movement. ''The Body Politic'', May 1978.</ref> lesbian [[Feminism|feminist]] activist Prof. [[Wikipedia:Beth Kelly|Beth Kelly]],<ref>[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly, Speaking Out on "Women/Girl Love" - Or, Lesbians Do "Do It". ''Gay Community News'', 3 March, 1979]. Also quoted in [http://www.ipce.info/host/radicase/chap04.htm O'Carroll, ''Paedophilia: The Radical Case'' (1980)].</ref> and nationally honored / decorated lesbian writer [[Wikipedia:Jane Rule|Jane Rule CM OBC]].<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20130118064126/http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?AFF_TYPE=1&STORY_ID=3979&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=1 Jane Rule, "Teaching Sexuality". ''The Body Politic'', June 30 1979]. Also cited in our testimonies page and others.</ref> It should be noted, however, that these examples emerge from the 1970s spirit of sexual revolution. Before the sexual revolution, as writers like [[Joan Nestle]] have discussed, Lesbianism was often pathologized, outright denied, thought of as deviant or a 'phase'. Until very recently, Lesbianism was subject to a conspiracy of silence, to the extent that feminist icon [[Wikipedia:Betty Friedan|Betty Freidan]] famously dubbed them the '[[Wikipedia:Lavender Menace|lavender menace]]', and at-one-time believed lesbians to be part of a plot to bring the (heterosexual) feminist movement into disrepute.<ref>Many articles recount and discuss this event. A recent one at time of writing is: [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/the-women-of-now-how-feminists-built-an-organization-that-transformed-america-katherine-turk-book-review-betty-friedan-magnificent-disrupter-rachel-shteir Moira Donegan, The Catalyst: Betty Friedan and the movement that outgrew her. ''The New Yorker'', September 11, 2023].</ref> It is therefore difficult to find clear evidence of positive and consensual lesbian sexual contact before the sexual revolution, with sexual contact that transgresses [[age of consent]] laws / age-gap norms being especially sensitive and stigmatized after the late 1970s and early 80s, forced underground into secrecy.

In previous literature, writers such as feminist activist [[Feminism|Kate Millett]] interpreted aversion to intergenerational eroticism as a product of women being subjects of historical patriarchy. Millett contrasted the more prevalent discussion and even defense of mutually willing intergenerational eroticism within the male-gay movement (see [[Historical_examples_of_LGBT-MAP_unity|LGBT-MAP Unity]]), with the aversion many women and lesbians espoused. Millett wrote that women are "more sexually repressed than men, having been given a much more puritanical code of behavior than men ever have"<ref name="paidika 8">[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol 08, 1992, p. 84]</ref>. Unlike men who had the history of [[Pederasty|pederasty]] to draw on, "It’s possible," Millett explained, "that the condition of lesbians has been so repressive that it prevents them from seeing people below the [[Age of Consent|age of consent]] as sexual partners" (''Ibid'').

Writing in Toronto's ''The Body Politic'', lesbian feminist writer Christine Donald reviewed ''[[The Age Taboo]]'' (Tsang ed. 1981) and [[Clarence_Osborne|''The Man they Called a Monster'']] (Wilson, 1981), stated how she was "impressed by the lucidity" of [[PIE]] Chairperson [[Tom O'Carroll]]'s arguments, "by his politeness, courage, and stamina" after having invited and heard him speak at a 'Gay Cambridge' event, and lamented the "silenced women" afraid of speaking out after "the scandalmongering of the straights [... and] the denunciation of feminists [which] has helped silence them."<ref>''The Body Politic'', No. 84 (June, 1982).</ref> Donald recalls "a workshop on pedophilia at the [[wikipedia:International_Lesbian_Information_Service|International Lesbian Information Secretariat]] (ILIS) conference in Amsterdam in January, 1981 [...] that approached the subject (rather than frantically pushing it away) by speaking about our own first sexual experiences." She states that "Many of these [sexual] experiences happened when we were between twelve and sixteen, some with best friends and contemporaries, more with a prefect, a teacher, an older friend," and recalls what she now recognizes as love feelings for her German teacher at 15, her friend Julie Irvine at 11, and her friend's mother at 8.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Later, German Psychologist Marina Knopf (1994, cited below) attempted to solicit interviews from females who had experienced intergenerational lesbianism. Knopf received letters but all respondents except one refused to be interviewed. Knopf argued that the age taboo, or what she terms the "paedosexual taboo," might be "felt so strongly by women precisely because the opportunities for breaking it lie so close at hand." Because of their special closeness [to young people]," Knopf argued, "the paedosexual attraction, as well as the taboo, could be greater than for men" (p. 19). The British psychiatrist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Yaff%C3%A9 Maurice Yaffe] had argued similarly in 1977 that "Virtually all pedophiles are male, and one reason why there are so few women may be that the sensuous expression of pedophilia in females is socially approved as a vital and necessary function of all maternal caring, and provides sufficient fulfillment."<ref>Maurice Yaffe, ‘Pedophilia: The Forbidden Subject’, (''New Statesman'', 16 Sept, 1977).</ref>

Ultimately, Berlin's female intergenerational rights organization ("Kanalratten" meaning "Sewer Rats") - which had published a manifesto<ref name="paidika 8" /> - were too inhibited to meet Knopf after agreeing to be interviewed by her. For her part, Knopf detected a greater sense of guilt and fear of arrest among females [[MAP]]s.

In the case of German Politician Dagmar Döring, for example, written in 1980 when she was 19, she wrote of an experience where, "no man and no woman, rather a child, in particular a girl," could satisfy her needs. Döring said, however, that she was afraid of the law which punished the "love between adults and children", and said she wanted "to do everything to change such laws." After [[MAPocalypse#Realization_of_the_panic_from_2020-2023|the 1980s backlash era]] of [[Moral_panic|moral panic]], Döring would later distance herself from these comments.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210726053352/https://www.thelocal.de/20130812/51349/ Pro-paedo text scuppers would-be MP's campaign]</ref>

Taken together, the evidence suggests that intergenerational lesbianism has been far more underground and secretive than its male homosexual counterpart. Nevertheless, despite a conspiracy of silence around Lesbianism until the sexual revolution, and the increasing stigmatization and criminalization of mutually willing sexual contacts involving age gaps as the sexual revolution declined and neoliberalism, sexual conservatism, and fear around sex took its place during the 1980s [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States AIDS Crisis] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic Satanic Panic] - we have documented many positive age-gap [[Testimony:_Adult_Female_with_Minor|testimonies]]. In 2020, historian Amanda H. Littauer (cited below) published a seminal scholarly article - ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'' - which provides testimonies from archival research. We hope more investigations like Littauer's will continue to uncover and publish evidence of this largely underground world. As pioneer queer activist, Pat [now Patrick] Califia, wrote:

<blockquote>''I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful. Our real-life experiences do not jibe with our politics on this issue."<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm Pat Califia - Ipce]</ref>''</blockquote>

Similarly, the feminist [[Joan Nestle]] wrote in her 1987 book ''A Restricted Country'' (winner of the Stonewall Book Award, 1988):

<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote><ref>See her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” in Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Many editions available.</ref>

==Gallery==

<gallery>
File:K-Heart.svg|The K/Heart. A symbol proposed by [[Katie Cruz]] to represent Korephilia. <ref>[https://amapin.love/2022/04/18/korephilia/ A MAP In Love - Korephilia]</ref>
File:Lesmap.png|Lesbian [[MAP Flag]] (commonly cited but rarely used symbol)
File:Kanalratten_Manifesto.png|The Kanalratten Manifesto - Via bk-girls.org, originally printed in 1989.
File:Bearchell.jpg|Chris Bearchell, "I Was Fifteen, She Was Forty-Three...". ''The Body Politic'', May 1978. Reprint from ''Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed''.
File:Rule.png|Lesbian Feminist [[Jane Rule]] writes in ''The Body Politic''.

</gallery>

==Research literature==

*Amanda H. Littauer, ''Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s'', in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1 (2020), 95-108.<ref>[https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Littauer - Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s]</ref>

*Marion E.P. de Ras, ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement: 1900–1934'' (Routledge, 2008).<ref>Marion E.P. de Ras, [https://annas-archive.org/md5/6d60cee91111399ecb39279feb1c9d9f ''Body, Femininity and Nationalism Girls in the German Youth Movement 1900–1934''] (Routledge, 2008). (Annas Archive PDF link); Alternatively, [https://www.routledge.com/Body-Femininity-and-Nationalism-Girls-in-the-German-Youth-Movement-1900-1934/deRas/p/book/9780415540964 purchase the book from Routledge] or [https://www.amazon.com/Body-Femininity-Nationalism-1900-1934-Routledge/dp/0415182557 Amazon].</ref><ref>For a shorter read, see [https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?p=4595#p4595 ''The Domain of the Wandervogel Girls: Pedagogical Eros and the Utopia of a Holy Island''], by Marion E.P. de Ras. Marion writes: Another tension in the girls' movement was that between the erotic and the sexual. Although this was never publicly discussed by any of the girls' groups, it is clear in the descriptions of camping trips, especially in descriptions of being and sleeping together. [... For] Hans Buhler, the "infamous" chronicler of the Wandervogel movement, it was all crystal clear. [...] The outside world thought that the community was based on a love of nature, vegetarianism, dance, and the ideals of the Wandervogel movement, but as an insider he knew that the driving force was mutual love between females, that is, the holy island and pedagogical Eros."</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, "The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale?", in ''Journal of the History of Sexuality'' 5:1 (1994), 90–114.<ref>[https://www.jstor.org/stable/3704081 Vicinus - The Adolescent Boy: Fin De Siècle Femme Fatale? (1994)]</ref>

*Marina Knopf, "Sexual Contacts Between Women and Children", in ''Paidika'', Vol. 3, No.3 (1994).<ref>[https://www.brongersma.info/Paidika-11 Paidika vol. 11].</ref>

*''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>[https://brongersma.info/Paidika-08 Paidika vol. 8].</ref>

*Martha Vicinus, ''Interview'' in ''Paidika'', Vol. 2, No. 4 (1992): Special Women's Issue.<ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

*Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’ (1986).<ref>[https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07 Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116] and [https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/23816159 full version on Sci-Hub].</ref>

* Dr. Arne Frederiksen, 'Female Paedophilia', in ''[https://www.ipce.info/library/miscellaneous/crime-without-victims-book-about-paedo Crime without victims: A book about paedophilia]'' (1983, translated to English by Dr. [[Edward Brongersma]] in 1993, with an introduction by Dr. [[Preben Hertoft]].

*Marion Zimmer-Bradley, "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction", in ''International Journal of Greek Love'', Vol.1 No.1, 1965, page 48.<ref>[http://exitinterview.biz/rarities/ijgl/htmfiles/ijg1p48.htm "Feminine Equivalents of Greek Love in Modern Fiction]</ref>

*Jenn McCollum, "The Romance of Henry James's Female Pedophile, in ''MP: An Online Feminist Journal'', Vol. 3, Issue 1 (Summer 2010).<ref>[http://academinist.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/030104McCollum_Femaleped.pdf Jenn McCollum (2010) PDF].</ref>

==See also==

*[[Pederasty]]
*[[Testimony: Adult Female with Minor]] - Contains some examples.
:*[[Testimony: Experiences of chronophilias]] - Contains some examples.

==External Links==

*[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians, and Feminists Speak About Youthlove]
*[https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Korephilia Korephilia] - RationalWiki.
*[https://forum.map-union.org/viewtopic.php?t=890 Butterfly Kisses] - Archive of research.

===Personal perspectives===

*[https://amapin.love A MAP In Love] - A Blog by [[Katie Cruz]]
*[https://aboutpedophilia.com/2018/09/05/a-strange-and-terrible-unicorn/ A Strange and Terrible Unicorn] - A low AoA lesbian pedophile.
*[https://www.consentingjuveniles.com/Case_Narrative?case=Beth_Kelly Beth Kelly's testimony]
*[[Wikipedia:Marion Zimmer Bradley|Marion Zimmer Bradley]], who was outed by her homophobic daughter might be an interesting point at which to begin some research.

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]]
[[Category:Gay]]
[[Category:Research: Broader Perspectives]]
[[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: International]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T02:03:40Z

Prue:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by [[Feminism|feminist]] civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Various editions are available.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina's husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:
<blockquote>
''I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pornography [[Feminism|feminism]]. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T02:02:17Z

Prue:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>All quotes on this page can be found in Joan Nestle, ''A Restricted Country'' (1987). Various editions are available.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina's husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:
<blockquote>
''I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T02:00:34Z

Prue:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina's husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:
<blockquote>
''I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Barnard_Conference_on_Sexuality famous Barnard Conference of 1982] (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T01:57:39Z

Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

Joan writes extensively about her mother Regina, who was born in 1910. Regina lived a difficult, poverty-stricken life working as a bookkeeper in New York while also occasionally selling sex. She was heterosexual and did not accept her daughter Joan’s lesbian sexuality until close to her death. In “My mother liked to fuck” and “Two Women: Regina Nestle, 1910–1978, and Her Daughter, Joan, 1940-”, Nestle reckoned with her mother’s extensive, active and difficult sex life. This involved much casual and paid sex after the death of Regina's husband who had died when she was 29 years old, leaving two unborn children behind. Upon death, Regina had no money or possessions, but left Joan a series of letters and scrawled notes which gave her frank and innermost thoughts on events in her life, including her childhood, sexual experiences good and bad, and her children and work life. Joan quotes these evocative writings, which include Regina’s own recognition of her childhood sexual feelings:
<blockquote>
''I remember as a little girl, the impatience with my own youth. I recognized that I was someone, someone to be reckoned with. I sensed the sexual order of life. I felt its pull. I wanted to be quickly and passionately involved. God, so young and yet so old. I recognized my youth only in the physical sense, as when I exposed my own body to my own vision, saw the beautiful breasts, the flat stomach, the sturdy limbs, the eyes that hid sadness, needed love—a hell of a lot of grit and already acknowledging this to be one hell of a life. I was going to find the key. I knew the hunger but I did not know how to appease it.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T01:53:35Z

Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, for which she won the Stonewall Book Award in 1988. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T01:51:03Z

Prue:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==

[[Category:Official Encyclopedia]][[Category:People]][[Category:Gay]][[Category:People: American]][[Category:People: Critical Analysts]][[Category:Censorship]][[Category:History & Events: Personal Scandals]][[Category:History & Events: American]][[Category:History & Events: 1950s]][[Category:History & Events: 1960s]][[Category:History & Events: 1970s]][[Category:History & Events: 1980s]]

Joan Nestle

2026-07-01T01:49:00Z

Prue: /* Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality */

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Nestle '''Joan Nestle'''] (born May 12, 1940) is a Lambda Award-winning writer and editor and a founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Cited by feminist civil liberties activist [[Nettie Pollard]] for having written about [[Intergenerational_Lesbianism|intergenerational lesbianism]], age-gap sex and childhood sexuality, Nestle also consistently advocated against [[censorship]] of dissident views. In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.

As a lesbian who came to erotic awareness in the 1950s and into young adulthood in the 1960s, Joan defended the lesbian activism and sexual culture of the 1950s against charges that it was reactionary, rather than a product of its time. Based on her experience living through periods where lesbianism was considered a sickness / mental illness, an aberration and highly stigmatized, she advocated for solidarity with other sexual minorities and against censorship and lesbian co-operation with the carceral State.

Nestle was part of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme#Mid-_to_late_20th_century butch and femme bar culture] of New York City since the late 1950s. In an interview with ''Ripe Magazine'', she recalled that the center of her social life as a young lesbian was a bar called the Sea Colony, which was run by organized crime and, in an attempt to avoid raids by the vice squad, allowed only one woman into the bathroom at a time.

After the Stonewall riots in 1969, gay liberation became a focus of her activism. She joined the Lesbian Liberation Committee in 1971 and helped found the Gay Academic Union (GAU) in 1972. Nestle began writing fiction in 1978, when a prolonged illness prevented her from teaching for a year. Her erotica focusing on butch and femme relationships made her a controversial figure during the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_sex_wars feminist sex wars] of the 1980s; members of Women Against Pornography called for censorship of her stories. Her life was the subject of a 2002 documentary by Joyce Warshow entitled ''Hand on the Pulse'', and she appears in the 1994 documentary about lesbian history ''Not Just Passing Through''.

==Joan Nestle and childhood sexuality==

In her 1987 non-fiction book ''A Restricted Country'', Nestle narrates various stories from her life, as well as speeches she gave at feminist conferences in later years. Sexual contact and desire involving large age gaps is mentioned in multiple stories, including both unrequited desire, [[Research:_Prevalence_of_Harm_and_Negative_Outcomes|wanted and unwanted]] experiences. Nestle writes how she had been having oral sex, “making love with my best friend Roz Rabinowitz,” since she was 10-years-old. By age 13, she writes of persistent intergenerational desire directed at older women in her life.

In her story “Liberties not Taken,” Nestle describes her childhood in 1953 at the age of 13, staying in a rural area with Mac (“a big man”) and his wife Jean who had 5 children together. Nestle vividly describes her [[Research:_Youth_sexuality|youthful longings]] for Jean which went unspoken and unconsummated, much to her regret when she discovers that Jean died of cancer only 5 years later...
<blockquote>
''I didn’t call myself gay yet. For three years [i.e. at 10 years old – Newgon] I had been making love to my best friend Roz Rabinowitz with my mouth, and I knew the word lesbian, but I was terrified of its implications and could not say it. [...]''

''With Jean it was different; I was not afraid of being anything she was— except Mac’s wife. We spent the long weekday nights playing cards with the older women who shared a cabin down the road. Every night before we went to bed she asked me to massage her back. I would straddle her, marveling at her body that was her ally, the muscles lying lean on her bones. I longed to slip my hands around her, to catch her small pointed breasts in my hands, to extend the travel of my fingers down the small of her back to her buttocks, to slip gently into her, and to give her all the pleasure there was in my thirteen-year-old imagination to give. I wanted to lie beside her, hoping that she would wrap her long legs around me and carry me with her in her leaps for freedom. I never had the courage to do these things. I just whispered “I love you,” as she stretched under my hands. [...]''

''I longed for Jean’s lips. But because I did not tell her clearly that it was my yearning, my choice, my passion that wanted her, a 13-year-old knowledge that was deep and fine, she and I did nothing, and Mac kissed me and fucked her. [...] My whole body was tuned for another sound. I knew she would come, and I wanted to show her I recognized my difference. I will bide my time until she touches me. I want her hands on me, her tongue in my mouth. I want to hold her head against me and throw my legs around her. [...] You heard their voices, not mine, because I was a girl-woman and it was a dangerous thing to touch me, and yet I had been touched so many times before by men who did not pause to think of innocence. Your touch would have healed me.''
</blockquote><ref>''Ibid''.</ref>

Again in 1953 at age 13, Nestle describes her attraction to an older woman named Susan Bender.
<blockquote>
''Susan attracted me. I thought she was butchy and I sensed a strong body under her unattractive clothes. I was looking for this secret strength even then. I remember one afternoon trying to seduce her in her bedroom, and somehow handcuffs were part of the game. I soon realized, however, that even though Susan looked the part, she was slow to follow my lead.''
</blockquote>

==Teenage experience==

In the chapter “A Restricted Country,” Nestle describes a double date with “Bill, the tired, aging cowboy who ran the corral,” alongside her brother Elliot who “was with Mary, a woman in her twenties who worked at the ranch.” It is not stated how old Bill was, but as he is described as having a "bony hand" (and later as being the lover of an elderly woman with cancer), we can presume he was in his 60s or older.
<blockquote>
''We had been to see a movie and were now parked behind the ranch house. Bill kissed me as we twisted around in the front seat. His bony hand pushed into my crotch, while his tongue opened my mouth. I pushed his hand away, sure of what I wanted and of what I did not. I did not want his fingers in me, but I did want to see his cheek against my breast. My brother and Mary gave up their squirming in the back seat and left the two of us alone. Bill was respectful. One word from me was enough to get him to stop his efforts at penetration. “Lie in my arms,” I told him.''

''His lips pulled at my nipples. We sat that way for a long time as the Arizona sky grew darker and darker. Right before he fell asleep, he said, “Best thing that’s happened to me in twenty years.” I knew this did not have very much to do with me, but a lot to do with my 16-year-old breasts. I sat there holding him for what seemed like hours, afraid to move because I did not want to wake him, when suddenly he jerked in his sleep and knocked into the steering wheel, setting off the horn. The desert stillness was split by its harsh alarm, and I knew my idyll was coming to an end.''

''One by one the lights came on in the guest cottages. My brother was the first to reach the car, his pajamas shining white in the moonlight. “I’m all right, I’m all right,” I whispered, as I maneuvered my body away from Bill’s. I wanted to escape before the other guests came pouring out, to save Bill from having to explain what we were doing. He would be held responsible for breaking the boundaries between guests and workers, between young girls and old men, and I would never be able to convince them that I knew exactly what I was doing, that tenderness was my joy that night.''
</blockquote>

==Anti-censorship views and support of dissident views==

In her 1980 talk titled “Some Understandings,” Nestle defends the right for gay men to speak about their experience of intergenerational sex, and advocates against scapegoating.
<blockquote>
''In these painful and challenging times, we must not run out on gay men and leave them holding the sexuality bag. It is tempting to some lesbians to see themselves as the clean sex deviant, to dissociate themselves from public sexual activity, multiple partners, and intergenerational sex. While this may be the choice for some of us, it is not the reality of many others, not now and not in the past. Lesbian purity, a public image that drapes us in the cloak of monogamous long-term relationships, discreet at-home social gatherings, and a basic urge to recreate the family, helps no one. It does justice to neither the choices it supposedly venerates nor our sexual independence. Long-term couples are often struggling with huge issues of lust and changes in sexual patterns. Discreet social gatherings were and often are the way close-knit sexual communities found a safe place to play. Public bathrooms have been social bedrooms through the years for young lesbians who had no safe home to take their lovers back to, and we have long documented the lustful crushes of young lesbians on older women, many more of which have been consummated than we encourage to be discussed.''

''Thus, by allowing ourselves to be portrayed as the good deviant, the respectable deviant, we lose more than we will ever gain. We lose the complexity of our own lives, and we lose what for me has been a lifelong lesson: you do not betray your comrades when the scapegoating begins.''
</blockquote>

In the chapter “My history with censorship,” she discusses living through McCarthyism and later, the feminist sex wars and anti-pormography feminism. During this time, Nestle became associated with the "pro-sex" or "sex positive" wing of feminist thought. She argued that, in the 1950s, "Any dissension became a heroic act."
<blockquote>
''If you spoke the wrong words or supported the wrong people, you were labeled un-American. You were sent into national, and in many cases private, exile. I watched people in their forties and fifties shrink from their children, withdraw into long, slow deaths. I heard read over the radio the names of those who were to be called in front of the Committee, before the Committee even reached a city. Long enough in advance for employers to fire the accused, long enough to give neighbors time to ostracize the marked family, long enough to give the stigmatized individuals time to take their lives. None of this was done by legal power. It was done by the power of orthodoxy, of one prevailing view of how to make the country safe. It was not trial by jury in a court of law: it was conviction by innuendo, by association, by labeling.''

''This is my historical and emotional starting point on the issue of censorship. Those were the years I learned about censorship, the overt kind and the more subtle kind; the years I learned about a mentality that reserves for itself the words that mean everything good, and labels dissenters with any term that will set off the alarm. Those were the years I learned about anonymous telephone calls warning people about the undesirables among them; the years I learned about visits to places of employment to make sure employers knew who they had working for them. It was the time I learned about silence, enforced by the fear of losing whole communities, about words and pictures never born because difference was a curse.''
</blockquote>

While unstated, these descriptions are arguably very similar to the situation faced by [[MAP]]s, [[AAM]]s and their allies (LGBTQ or not) who face intense stigma and [[censorship]]. Even more similar, Nestle's lesbian sexuality in the 1950s meant that she was part of a criminalized sexual minority. Historians such as [[Rachel Hope Cleves]] have used [[Gayle Rubin]]'s theory of the "Charmed Circle" to explain how sexual minorities in the past were more proximate, and therefore more likely to form alliances and support each other because a broader array of sexual practices in general were stigmatized and/or criminalized. Nestle wrote of her criminalized sexuality:
<blockquote>
''But all along I had another world to sustain me, the deviant criminalized world of butch-femme lesbians in Village bars. Here, also, I was part of a judged community. We were moral dangers. Here I learned that vice squads existed to keep obscenities like myself from polluting the rest of society. Here I learned how to take brutal insults to personal dignity and keep wanting and loving. Here I first learned what a community of women could do even when we were called the scum of the earth.''
</blockquote>

When speaking at the famous Barnard Conference of 1982 (where [[Gayle Rubin]] was also a speaker), Nestle faced backlash from anti-porn feminists. She described this as the "second McCarthy period in my life."
<blockquote>
''Women called the organizers of conferences where I was speaking and told them I was a “sexual deviant,” labeling me a dangerous person who betrays the feminist cause. A member of Women Against Pornography, who saw it as her duty to warn a group of students and professors about me, visited the place where I earn my living, Queens College. “Don’t you know she is a lesbian?” “Don’t you know she practices S&M?” “Don’t you know she engages in unequal, patriarchal power sex?” (Butch and femme is what she meant here, I think.) I was called to the Women’s Center on campus and asked by a group of women students gathered there whether the accusations were correct. Only those who remember the cadence of those McCarthy words — “Are you now, or have you ever been...” — can know the rage that grew in me at that moment. These young women, so earnest in their feminism, were so set up for this sad moment. “I cannot answer you,” I said, “because to do so would bring back a world I have worked my whole life to see never come again.”''
</blockquote>

She ended the chapter by stating:
<blockquote>
''All I have are my words and my body, and I will use them to say and picture the truths I know. I have been homeless before and I can be homeless again, but I almost think I have lived too long when I see lesbians become members of the new vice squad.''
</blockquote>

==References==