Debate Guide: Evolutionary logic - Revision history

The Admins at 12:01, 28 December 2024

2024-12-28T12:01:22Z

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	:''"I definitely don't accept the view of the dominant culture that loving, noncoercive, consensual sexual touching with potty-trained prepubescent children is abusive and ruins them for life. What ruins them is the subsequent brainwashing by the "sex offender" industry that they've been damaged. '''The key test that this is nonsense folkways is that children have to be indoctrinated that pleasurable genital/anal touching is "bad touch" -- yet they instinctively and experientially know that touching a flame is bad touch, sticking a syringe in their arm is bad touch, being bit by a dog is bad touch, etc'''".''		:''"I definitely don't accept the view of the dominant culture that loving, noncoercive, consensual sexual touching with potty-trained prepubescent children is abusive and ruins them for life. What ruins them is the subsequent brainwashing by the "sex offender" industry that they've been damaged. '''The key test that this is nonsense folkways is that children have to be indoctrinated that pleasurable genital/anal touching is "bad touch" -- yet they instinctively and experientially know that touching a flame is bad touch, sticking a syringe in their arm is bad touch, being bit by a dog is bad touch, etc'''".''

	Barring infanticide due to overpopulation or disability, no adaptive function has ever existed for parents to harm their own offspring, particularly in a way that preserves their life but leaves them debilitated. Since modern day abuse experts hold that genital touching is significantly and inherently injurious for youngsters, it would carry an innate pain burden for youngsters and be undesirable for closely related adults. Incest could be dismissed as an "aberration", if only it wasn't [[Research: ~~Double-Taboo CSA\|so common, innately harmless]] and relatable to normal variations in family environment (absence of one parent for example).~~		Barring infanticide due to overpopulation or disability, no adaptive function has ever existed for parents to harm their own offspring, particularly in a way that preserves their life but leaves them debilitated:

	One may decide to argue against this by bringing up the example of children not having any innate aversion to ~~drugs~~ or eating too much chocolate. The analogy is absurd, however, and fails because it ultimately supports the hedonic argument. This is because unlike sex, we are referring to highly refined or artificial substances that were not available in such great a quantity during most of human evolution. As an example, chocolate is not thought to do severe harm after just one exposure (unlike sexual "abuse"), since sugars would have been a valuable sources of energy in primitive societies where food was sparse. An opponent may argue that as with large doses of opiates, human ancestors were simply not exposed to "under-age" sex. However, this is an absurd argument, as a) We know that hard age restrictions did not exist in pre-industrial societies, and b) It would be counter-hedonic for said "harmful" abuse to suddenly increase in prevalence for no apparent necessitating reason.		*Since modern day abuse experts hold that genital touching is significantly and inherently injurious for youngsters, it would thus carry an innate pain burden for youngsters and be undesirable for closely related adults. But this is not the case.
			*The tightness and fit of childrens' clothing in modern western societies would also have become a point of concern (due to unintended "molestation" by ones own clothing). But largely hasn't.
			*Incest could be dismissed as an "aberration", if only it wasn't [[Research: Double-Taboo CSA\|so common, innately harmless]] and relatable to normal variations in family environment (absence of one parent for example). It happens far too commonly to represent a violation of natural laws.

			One may decide to argue against this by bringing up the example of children not having any innate aversion to harmful drug use or eating too much chocolate. The analogy is absurd, however, and fails because it ultimately supports the hedonic argument. This is because unlike sex, we are referring to highly refined or artificial substances that were not available in such great a quantity during most of human evolution. As an example, chocolate is not thought to do severe harm after just one exposure (unlike sexual "abuse"), since sugars would have been a valuable sources of energy in primitive societies where food was sparse. An opponent may argue that as with large doses of opiates, human ancestors were simply not exposed to "under-age" sex. However, this is an absurd argument, as a) We know that hard age restrictions did not exist in pre-industrial societies, and b) It would be counter-hedonic for said "harmful" abuse to suddenly increase in prevalence for no apparent necessitating reason.

	===Adaptive oppression/rape (anti-hedonics)===		===Adaptive oppression/rape (anti-hedonics)===

The Admins: /* See also */

2023-08-22T11:13:21Z

The Admins: /* See also */

2023-03-13T21:35:30Z

Thorn: added "see also" link to the research

2023-01-14T14:15:01Z

added "see also" link to the research

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:15, 14 January 2023
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	Throughout our childhood and adolescence, it is known that various opportunities for development present themselves, and are accompanied by urges for exploration (so called "sensation-seeking"), relevant to learning. It is natural to explore these urges, as they are biological traits geared towards the purpose of personal growth and experience. Since we know that even prepubertal youth show sexual initiative in both [[Testimony: CSA (Children's Sexual Advances)\|anecdotal]] and [[Research: Youth sexuality\|scientific]] literature, maybe we should reject the constant questioning of "the effects of sex on youth", and instead investigate [[Research: Sexual repression\|"the effects of suppressing sex on youth"]]. This revised focus would bring with it a questioning of the harmful sex taboos underpinning said "healthy" impulse suppression.		Throughout our childhood and adolescence, it is known that various opportunities for development present themselves, and are accompanied by urges for exploration (so called "sensation-seeking"), relevant to learning. It is natural to explore these urges, as they are biological traits geared towards the purpose of personal growth and experience. Since we know that even prepubertal youth show sexual initiative in both [[Testimony: CSA (Children's Sexual Advances)\|anecdotal]] and [[Research: Youth sexuality\|scientific]] literature, maybe we should reject the constant questioning of "the effects of sex on youth", and instead investigate [[Research: Sexual repression\|"the effects of suppressing sex on youth"]]. This revised focus would bring with it a questioning of the harmful sex taboos underpinning said "healthy" impulse suppression.

			==See also==
			[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality\| Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality]

	==References==		==References==

The Admins: /* Developmental consideration */

2021-11-18T05:26:36Z

Developmental consideration

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:26, 18 November 2021
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	==Developmental consideration==		==Developmental consideration==

	Throughout our childhood and adolescence, it is known that various opportunities for development present themselves, and are accompanied by urges for exploration (so called "sensation-seeking"), relevant to learning. It is natural to explore these urges, as they are biological traits geared towards the purpose of personal growth and experience. Since we know that even prepubertal youth show sexual initiative in both [[Testimony: CSA (Children's Sexual Advances)\|anecdotal]] and [[Research: Youth sexuality\|scientific]] literature, maybe we should reject the constant questioning of "the effects of sex on youth", and instead investigate [[Research: Sexual repression\|"the effects of suppressing sex on youth"]]. This revised focus would bring with it a questioning of harmful ~~the~~ sex taboos underpinning said "healthy" impulse suppression.		Throughout our childhood and adolescence, it is known that various opportunities for development present themselves, and are accompanied by urges for exploration (so called "sensation-seeking"), relevant to learning. It is natural to explore these urges, as they are biological traits geared towards the purpose of personal growth and experience. Since we know that even prepubertal youth show sexual initiative in both [[Testimony: CSA (Children's Sexual Advances)\|anecdotal]] and [[Research: Youth sexuality\|scientific]] literature, maybe we should reject the constant questioning of "the effects of sex on youth", and instead investigate [[Research: Sexual repression\|"the effects of suppressing sex on youth"]]. This revised focus would bring with it a questioning of the harmful sex taboos underpinning said "healthy" impulse suppression.

	==References==		==References==

The Admins: /* Polymorphous perversity */

2021-11-18T05:24:57Z

Polymorphous perversity

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	==Polymorphous perversity==		==Polymorphous perversity==

	Considering the possible benefits to a primitive community of maybe 30 human ancestors, it makes sense that a small number of adults should have an interest in the emotional development and sexual education of the group's young. "Hands on" sexual education (note the lack of innate damage eluded to earlier) and intergenerational communication are likely to have been important parts of tribal life and survival (see [[Research: Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships\|our research list]] for some examples). ~~And if~~ these attractions towards a range of ~~ages, genders, looks, etcetera~~ (aka '''polymorphous perversity''') are shared by most of the community, this may enhance the possibility of successful reproduction in communities where a wide spread of physical types may not be available. A diverse set of sexual attractions, not only in relation to age, is therefore favourable in the Darwinian model.		Considering the possible benefits to a primitive community of maybe 30 human ancestors, it makes sense that a small number of adults should have an interest in the emotional development and sexual education of the group's young. "Hands on" sexual education (note the lack of innate damage eluded to earlier) and intergenerational communication are likely to have been important parts of tribal life and survival (see [[Research: Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships\|our research list]] for some examples). If these attractions towards a range of physical types (aka '''polymorphous perversity''') are shared by most of the community, this may enhance the possibility of successful reproduction in communities where a wide spread of physical types may not be available. A diverse set of sexual attractions, not only in relation to age, is therefore favourable in the Darwinian model.

	==Developmental consideration==		==Developmental consideration==

The Admins at 05:22, 18 November 2021

2021-11-18T05:22:21Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:22, 18 November 2021
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	The above arguments however, do not fully explain why pedophilia so often has an erotic component. We may begin to explain this by casting light upon the importance of ''good erotic taste'' in the tribal pedophile male. By selecting/promoting the fitness and welfare of children who have budding sexually attractive physical characteristics, the tribal pedophile male again increases the chance that his genetic commonality with said youngster will survive through the generations. This may help us explain why pedophiles express interest in the most physically attractive children, and why this interest takes something of an erotic form.		The above arguments however, do not fully explain why pedophilia so often has an erotic component. We may begin to explain this by casting light upon the importance of ''good erotic taste'' in the tribal pedophile male. By selecting/promoting the fitness and welfare of children who have budding sexually attractive physical characteristics, the tribal pedophile male again increases the chance that his genetic commonality with said youngster will survive through the generations. This may help us explain why pedophiles express interest in the most physically attractive children, and why this interest takes something of an erotic form.

	It is also simplistic to state that due to their reproductive inability, prepubes should be no more sexually attractive to "normal" adults than an inanimate object. ~~To begin with,~~ "~~pedophile~~" relationships may very soon develop into situations where reproduction is a possibility. This early induction may have been vital in early societies where 30, 40 or 50 was considered a death age.		It is also simplistic to state that due to their reproductive inability, prepubes should be no more sexually attractive to "normal" adults than an inanimate object. "Pedophile" relationships may very soon develop into situations where reproduction is a possibility. This early induction may have been vital in early societies where 30, 40 or 50 was considered a death age.

	==Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles==		==Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles==

	There are many possible reasons why erotic contacts with pubertal juveniles and adolescents could confer an advantage in the Darwinian model. These are ~~genrally~~ accepted, ~~and were fully discussed in~~ the controversy surrounding [[hebephilia]].<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/rind-yuill-hebephilia Rind and Yuill - Hebephilia as Mental Disorder?]</ref> For post-menarchal girls, for example, the superior lifespan of children to young mothers<ref>[http://longevity-science.org/media/Daily-Mail-2006-Nov.pdf Daily Mail - First-born of young mums likely to live longer]</ref> makes them desirable partners. It is worth mentioning at this point, that although small girls (when malnourished) may sometimes be more vulnerable to complications during pregnancy, said complications remain limited and are a [[Research: Teen pregnancy\|classic example of confounded outcomes]]. Similarly, negative outcomes for the new child (when observed) were found to be limited/socially confounded and are therefore most likely extrinsic.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219236/ THE CHILDREN OF TEEN CHILDBEARERS - Hofferth]</ref> The benefits to the female of reproducing earlier and more frequently (or to the male of being the first partner for a reproductively fit female) would likely outweigh even significant downsides.		There are many possible reasons why erotic contacts with pubertal juveniles and adolescents could confer an advantage in the Darwinian model. These are generally accepted within the scientific community, following the controversy surrounding [[hebephilia]].<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/rind-yuill-hebephilia Rind and Yuill - Hebephilia as Mental Disorder?]</ref> For post-menarchal girls, for example, the superior lifespan of children to young mothers<ref>[http://longevity-science.org/media/Daily-Mail-2006-Nov.pdf Daily Mail - First-born of young mums likely to live longer]</ref> makes them desirable partners. It is worth mentioning at this point, that although small girls (when malnourished) may sometimes be more vulnerable to complications during pregnancy, said complications remain limited and are a [[Research: Teen pregnancy\|classic example of confounded outcomes]]. Similarly, negative outcomes for the new child (when observed) were found to be limited/socially confounded and are therefore most likely extrinsic.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219236/ THE CHILDREN OF TEEN CHILDBEARERS - Hofferth]</ref> The benefits to the female of reproducing earlier and more frequently (or to the male of being the first partner for a reproductively fit female) would likely outweigh even significant downsides.

	==Polymorphous perversity==		==Polymorphous perversity==

JohnHolt: /* Polymorphous perversity */

2021-11-17T02:53:03Z

Polymorphous perversity

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:53, 17 November 2021
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	==Polymorphous perversity==		==Polymorphous perversity==

	Considering the possible benefits to a primitive community of maybe 30 human ancestors, it makes sense that a small number of adults should have an interest in the emotional development and sexual education of the group's young. "Hands on" sexual education (note the lack of innate damage eluded to earlier) and intergenerational communication are likely to have been important parts of tribal life and survival (see [[Research: Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships]] for some examples). And if these attractions towards a range of ages, genders, looks, etcetera (aka '''polymorphous perversity''') are shared by most of the community, this may enhance the possibility of successful reproduction in communities where a wide spread of physical types may not be available. A diverse set of sexual attractions, not only in relation to age, is therefore favourable in the Darwinian model.		Considering the possible benefits to a primitive community of maybe 30 human ancestors, it makes sense that a small number of adults should have an interest in the emotional development and sexual education of the group's young. "Hands on" sexual education (note the lack of innate damage eluded to earlier) and intergenerational communication are likely to have been important parts of tribal life and survival (see [[Research: Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships\|our research list]] for some examples). And if these attractions towards a range of ages, genders, looks, etcetera (aka '''polymorphous perversity''') are shared by most of the community, this may enhance the possibility of successful reproduction in communities where a wide spread of physical types may not be available. A diverse set of sexual attractions, not only in relation to age, is therefore favourable in the Darwinian model.

	==Developmental consideration==		==Developmental consideration==

JohnHolt: /* Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles */

2021-11-17T02:52:31Z

Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:52, 17 November 2021
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	==Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles==		==Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles==

	There are many possible reasons why erotic contacts with pubertal juveniles and adolescents could confer an advantage in the Darwinian model. These are genrally accepted, and were fully discussed in the controversy surrounding [[hebephilia]].<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/rind-yuill-hebephilia Rind and Yuill - Hebephilia as Mental Disorder?]</ref> For post-menarchal girls, for example, the superior lifespan of children to young mothers<ref>[http://longevity-science.org/media/Daily-Mail-2006-Nov.pdf Daily Mail - First-born of young mums likely to live longer]</ref> makes them desirable partners. It is worth mentioning at this point, that although small girls (when malnourished) may sometimes be more vulnerable to complications during pregnancy, said complications remain limited and are a [[Research: Teen pregnancy\|classic example of confounded outcomes]]. Similarly, negative outcomes for the new child (when observed) were found to be limited/socially confounded and are therefore most likely extrinsic.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219236/ THE CHILDREN OF TEEN CHILDBEARERS - Hofferth]</ref> The benefits to the female of reproducing earlier and more frequently (or to the male of being the first ~~father to~~ a reproductively fit female) would likely outweigh even significant downsides.		There are many possible reasons why erotic contacts with pubertal juveniles and adolescents could confer an advantage in the Darwinian model. These are genrally accepted, and were fully discussed in the controversy surrounding [[hebephilia]].<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/rind-yuill-hebephilia Rind and Yuill - Hebephilia as Mental Disorder?]</ref> For post-menarchal girls, for example, the superior lifespan of children to young mothers<ref>[http://longevity-science.org/media/Daily-Mail-2006-Nov.pdf Daily Mail - First-born of young mums likely to live longer]</ref> makes them desirable partners. It is worth mentioning at this point, that although small girls (when malnourished) may sometimes be more vulnerable to complications during pregnancy, said complications remain limited and are a [[Research: Teen pregnancy\|classic example of confounded outcomes]]. Similarly, negative outcomes for the new child (when observed) were found to be limited/socially confounded and are therefore most likely extrinsic.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219236/ THE CHILDREN OF TEEN CHILDBEARERS - Hofferth]</ref> The benefits to the female of reproducing earlier and more frequently (or to the male of being the first partner for a reproductively fit female) would likely outweigh even significant downsides.

	==Polymorphous perversity==		==Polymorphous perversity==

JohnHolt: /* Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles */

2021-11-17T02:50:14Z

Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:50, 17 November 2021
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	==Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles==		==Sexual contacts with pubertal juveniles==

	There are many possible reasons why erotic contacts with pubertal juveniles and adolescents could confer an advantage in the Darwinian model. These are genrally accepted, and were fully discussed in the controversy surrounding [[hebephilia]].<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/rind-yuill-hebephilia Rind and Yuill - Hebephilia as Mental Disorder?]</ref> For post-menarchal girls, for example, the superior lifespan of children to young mothers<ref>[http://longevity-science.org/media/Daily-Mail-2006-Nov.pdf Daily Mail - First-born of young mums likely to live longer]</ref> makes them desirable partners. It is worth mentioning at this point, that although ~~malnourished,~~ small girls may sometimes be more vulnerable to complications during pregnancy, said complications remain limited and are a [[Research: Teen pregnancy\|classic example of confounded outcomes]]. Similarly, negative outcomes for the new child (when observed) were found to be limited/socially confounded and are therefore most likely extrinsic.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219236/ THE CHILDREN OF TEEN CHILDBEARERS - Hofferth]</ref> The benefits to the female of reproducing earlier and more frequently (or to the male of being the first father to a reproductively fit female) would likely outweigh even significant downsides.		There are many possible reasons why erotic contacts with pubertal juveniles and adolescents could confer an advantage in the Darwinian model. These are genrally accepted, and were fully discussed in the controversy surrounding [[hebephilia]].<ref>[https://www.ipce.info/library/journal-article/rind-yuill-hebephilia Rind and Yuill - Hebephilia as Mental Disorder?]</ref> For post-menarchal girls, for example, the superior lifespan of children to young mothers<ref>[http://longevity-science.org/media/Daily-Mail-2006-Nov.pdf Daily Mail - First-born of young mums likely to live longer]</ref> makes them desirable partners. It is worth mentioning at this point, that although small girls (when malnourished) may sometimes be more vulnerable to complications during pregnancy, said complications remain limited and are a [[Research: Teen pregnancy\|classic example of confounded outcomes]]. Similarly, negative outcomes for the new child (when observed) were found to be limited/socially confounded and are therefore most likely extrinsic.<ref>[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219236/ THE CHILDREN OF TEEN CHILDBEARERS - Hofferth]</ref> The benefits to the female of reproducing earlier and more frequently (or to the male of being the first father to a reproductively fit female) would likely outweigh even significant downsides.

	==Polymorphous perversity==		==Polymorphous perversity==

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:13, 22 August 2023
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	==See also==		==See also==
	*[~~https://www.newgon.net/wiki/~~Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality\| Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality]		*[[Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality\|Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality]]

	==References==		==References==

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:35, 13 March 2023
Line 44:		Line 44:

	==See also==		==See also==
	[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality\| Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality]		*[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality\| Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality]

	==References==		==References==