Debate Guide: Power disparity - Revision history

The Admins: /* Egalitarian? Secular? */

2024-12-07T23:56:03Z

Egalitarian? Secular?

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:56, 7 December 2024
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	It's a convenient and oft-repeated myth that present [[Child Sexual Abuse\|CSA]] praxis is inherently egalitarian or dispassionately secular<ref>[https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/03/14/atheists-liberals-pedophilia-bestiality/ Can Liberal Atheists REALLY Criticize Pedophilia, Bestiality?]</ref> - even somehow libertarian, "freeing" minors from adult power. We convince ourselves that protecting minors way into their teens is somehow necessary because "liberal-democratic society" is ''always progressing''; thus we are only now beginning to learn of a dark and hidden history of abuse. This sounds poetic and virtuous, a revelation even, but just doesn't check out against the evidence. It is very easy to establish the modern roots of CSA were in fact [[moral entrepreneur]]s, religious puritanist zealots and "child savers" such as [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]]. This movement initially amplified the witch-hunt in the 1970s, elevating the "molester", "kiddy porn" and the "trafficked child" to the level of media spectacle. Feminists, psychiatrists and survivor networks then filled the gaps left in what evolved to become highly profitable public "sexual predator", "pedophilia" discourse during the post-AIDS conservative backlash and the 90s.		It's a convenient and oft-repeated myth that present [[Child Sexual Abuse\|CSA]] praxis is inherently egalitarian or dispassionately secular<ref>[https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/03/14/atheists-liberals-pedophilia-bestiality/ Can Liberal Atheists REALLY Criticize Pedophilia, Bestiality?]</ref> - even somehow libertarian, "freeing" minors from adult power. We convince ourselves that protecting minors way into their teens is somehow necessary because "liberal-democratic society" is ''always progressing''; thus we are only now beginning to learn of a dark and hidden history of abuse. This sounds poetic and virtuous, a revelation even, but just doesn't check out against the evidence. It is very easy to establish the modern roots of CSA were in fact [[moral entrepreneur]]s, religious puritanist zealots and "child savers" such as [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]]. This movement initially amplified the witch-hunt in the 1970s, elevating the "molester", "kiddy porn" and the "trafficked child" to the level of media spectacle. Feminists, psychiatrists and survivor networks then filled the gaps left in what evolved to become highly profitable public "sexual predator", "pedophilia" discourse during the post-AIDS conservative backlash and the 90s.

	Further, when we trace these recurring panics back in time (there have been around three so far), we find exactly the same circus of moral righteousness ''preceding'' any illusion of objective scientific method or progressivist virtue. The misogyny goes all the way back to the well-documented child prostitution panics in the Victorian era, caused by a moral crisis in post-industrial society. Then in the postwar era, "child molester" panics were centered on ~~the predatory~~ homosexual.		Further, when we trace these recurring panics back in time (there have been around three so far), we find exactly the same circus of moral righteousness ''preceding'' any illusion of objective scientific method or progressivist virtue. The misogyny goes all the way back to the well-documented child prostitution panics in the Victorian era, caused by a moral crisis in post-industrial society. Then in the postwar era, "child molester" panics were centered on supposedly homosexual abductors, "sexual deviates".

	Regardless of its cause, the results of this "egalitarian" sex stigma are plain to see:		Regardless of its cause, the results of this "egalitarian" sex stigma are plain to see:

The Admins: /* Egalitarian? Secular? */

2024-12-07T23:53:39Z

Egalitarian? Secular?

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:53, 7 December 2024
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	==Egalitarian? Secular?==		==Egalitarian? Secular?==

	It's a convenient and oft-repeated myth that present [[Child Sexual Abuse\|CSA]] praxis is inherently egalitarian or dispassionately secular<ref>[https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/03/14/atheists-liberals-pedophilia-bestiality/ Can Liberal Atheists REALLY Criticize Pedophilia, Bestiality?]</ref> - even somehow libertarian, "freeing" minors from adult power. We convince ourselves that protecting minors way into their teens is somehow necessary because "liberal-democratic society" is ''always progressing''; thus we are only now beginning to learn of a dark and hidden history of abuse. This sounds poetic and virtuous, a revelation even, but just doesn't check out against the evidence. It is very easy to establish the modern roots of CSA were in fact [[moral entrepreneur]]s, religious puritanist zealots and "child savers" such as [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]]. This movement initially amplified the witch-hunt in the 1970s, elevating the "~~sexual predator~~" and the "trafficked child" to the level of media spectacle. Feminists and ~~psychiatrists~~ then filled the gaps left in what evolved to become highly profitable public discourse during the post-AIDS conservative backlash.		It's a convenient and oft-repeated myth that present [[Child Sexual Abuse\|CSA]] praxis is inherently egalitarian or dispassionately secular<ref>[https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/03/14/atheists-liberals-pedophilia-bestiality/ Can Liberal Atheists REALLY Criticize Pedophilia, Bestiality?]</ref> - even somehow libertarian, "freeing" minors from adult power. We convince ourselves that protecting minors way into their teens is somehow necessary because "liberal-democratic society" is ''always progressing''; thus we are only now beginning to learn of a dark and hidden history of abuse. This sounds poetic and virtuous, a revelation even, but just doesn't check out against the evidence. It is very easy to establish the modern roots of CSA were in fact [[moral entrepreneur]]s, religious puritanist zealots and "child savers" such as [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]]. This movement initially amplified the witch-hunt in the 1970s, elevating the "molester", "kiddy porn" and the "trafficked child" to the level of media spectacle. Feminists, psychiatrists and survivor networks then filled the gaps left in what evolved to become highly profitable public "sexual predator", "pedophilia" discourse during the post-AIDS conservative backlash and the 90s.

	Further, when we trace these recurring panics back in time (there have been around three so far), we find exactly the same circus of moral righteousness ''preceding'' any illusion of objective scientific method or progressivist virtue. The misogyny goes all the way back to the well-documented child prostitution panics in the Victorian era, caused by a moral crisis in post-industrial society. Then in the postwar era, "child molester" panics were centered on the predatory homosexual.		Further, when we trace these recurring panics back in time (there have been around three so far), we find exactly the same circus of moral righteousness ''preceding'' any illusion of objective scientific method or progressivist virtue. The misogyny goes all the way back to the well-documented child prostitution panics in the Victorian era, caused by a moral crisis in post-industrial society. Then in the postwar era, "child molester" panics were centered on the predatory homosexual.

The Admins at 23:47, 7 December 2024

2024-12-07T23:47:42Z

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	__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:		__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:

	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a <u>position of lesser social or physical power/status.</u> Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner. This is why ~~we call~~ it abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a <u>position of lesser social or physical power/status.</u> Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner. This is why it's always abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>

	'''Firstly''', you can ask your opponent to explain the wrongfulness of relationships in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person:		'''Firstly''', you can ask your opponent to explain the wrongfulness of relationships in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person:

The Admins at 22:38, 3 June 2024

2024-06-03T22:38:31Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:38, 3 June 2024
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	__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:		__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:

	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a <u>position of lesser social or physical power/status.</u> Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner~~, and this~~ is why we call it abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a <u>position of lesser social or physical power/status.</u> Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner. This is why we call it abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>

	~~1. If your opponent~~'~~s intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws~~, you ~~will have~~ to explain ~~how it would apply to instances~~ in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person~~. [https~~:~~//www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].~~		'''Firstly''', you can ask your opponent to explain the wrongfulness of relationships in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person:

	2. ~~We have to consider whether there ''is in fact a gap''~~, and ~~whether or not there may be power differentials favoring ''both sides'' in different ways. While an adult may excel in physical power, they have~~ [[~~Power of consequences~~\|~~not a leg to stand on legally.]] Since they could be put in a jail cell under suspicion of unlawful sex with a~~ minor ~~within hours, it is the "minor" who has the power of perceived victimhood. So, much of a minor's [[Power of attraction\|power over an~~ adult~~]] is covert in nature - we can perhaps point~~ to ~~[[Michel Foucault~~]] for examples of how this power is manifested. It could also be said in layman's terms, that most parents will know deep down, even the youngest child can always say 'no' - often in the most expressive of ways. In this instance, one would have to explain the ''mechanism'' by which physical relations negate this strength of will.		*See for example selected [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Boylove relationships throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|minor-adult relationships closer to the present]].

	~~If the adult~~, ~~on the other hand is using threats~~ to ~~subvert the minor~~'s power~~, then we are witnessing~~ a ~~clear-cut [[Special Article: Adverse effects~~ of ~~hysteria\|adverse consequence]] of [[Debate Guide~~: ~~Problems with the Age of Consent\|age of consent laws]], and should really be considering the extent to which these laws are causing psychological tensions and harm to both parties.~~		Additionally, they need to demonstrate there ''is in fact a power gap''. Don't be afraid of holding them to a high burden of proof:

	~~3. Since we are not a~~ ''~~savage species~~'' ~~at the personal level, the presence of a natural power gap~~ in ~~no way means that it will be abused~~. ~~As a youth - lover (~~in ~~a literal sense) an ''~~[[~~Minor Attracted Person~~\|~~MAP]]'', if and when they feel~~ a ~~physical attraction, will desire~~ to ~~please and receive pleasure from their partner, like an adult-attracted person would~~. ~~Any number of [[Research: Psychopathy_and_abnormal psychology\|research articles~~]] ~~relating to pedophilia (the only form of attraction to minors which is officially pathologized) will confirm this. This is~~ in ~~contrast to~~ a ~~"situational~~ sex ~~offender" who might simply be taking advantage of the ''proximity'' or ''convenience'' of~~ a minor, ~~whilst using~~ the ~~taboo nature of~~ the ~~act to instill fear~~ of ~~exposure~~. ~~Psychopathic crimes are~~ of ~~course~~ a ~~completely different class from the aforementioned two, and thankfully very rare. We have to recognize that in any instance, these and other abuses~~ of power ~~causing unavoidable physical and psychological harms~~ in ~~situ would remain against the law~~, ~~regardless of what~~ [[~~consent~~]] ~~laws were being used~~.		*Power differentials can favor ''both sides'' in different ways. While an adult may excel in physical power, they have [[Power of consequences\|not a leg to stand on legally.]] Since they could be put in a jail cell under suspicion of unlawful sex with a minor within hours, it is the "minor" who has the power of perceived victimhood.
			*So, much of a minor's [[Power of attraction\|power over an adult]] is covert in nature - we can perhaps point to [[Michel Foucault]], and [[Queer Theory]] for examples of how this power is manifested.

	~~4. Finally~~, ~~while abuse of power (beatings~~, ~~bullying by adults or other minors)~~ can ~~not be excused, it is perpetrated daily against children without any apparent physical or psychological harm. Acknowledging this fact isn~~'~~t a taboo as such~~ - ~~we just ignore~~ the ~~abuses~~ of power to justify them, and thus skirt around the issue as there is no considerable societal stigma on violence or discipline. So what if we were to remove the societal stigma on erotic play, if consented to?		It could also be said in layman's terms, that most parents will know deep down, even the youngest child can always say 'no' - often in the most expressive of ways:

	~~Furthermore, in playground games (seen by developmental psychologists as~~ "~~crucial socializing experiences") and at bath time for example, small children are effectively "felt up" against their will, repeatedly and in ways only deemed indefensible when certain~~ "~~motives" are identified~~. ~~Even when applied~~ to ~~very small children, these interactions are never seen~~ or ~~expected to cause mental torture, nor to have lifelong consequences. Thus, with respect to consensual sex play, the view that harms are inevitable~~ is ~~totally unwarranted and only risks becoming~~ a ~~dangerous,~~ [[~~self~~-fulfilling prophecy]] ~~based on moral hysteria and reactionism~~.		*Your opponent then needs to explain what makes "sex" different. Referring to shame or embarrassment is a [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|circular argument]]. What your opponent must evidence is a ''mechanism'' by which basic physical/sexual relations negate a young person's strength of will.

	~~Whilst~~ there ''is'' a clear hypocrisy in the way we celebrate and encourage non-consensual play among/discipline of "our" children, we should also ask about the social context, i.e. are we creating the need to protect children or minors in general? The [[Debate Guide: Cyclical Paternalism\|cyclical paternalism]] argument will help address this.		If the adult, on the other hand is using threats to subvert the minor's power, then we are again in cyclical argument territory, since it is the stigma and laws that likely cause some people to threaten and silence young people. What we are seeing can thus be interpreted as an [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria\|adverse consequence]] of [[Debate Guide: Problems with the Age of Consent\|age of consent laws]].

			==Difference =/= abuse==

			Your opponent's argument also relies upon an assumption of savagery or bad-faith at the personal level. The presence of a natural power gap in no way means that it will be abused. As a youth - lover (in a literal sense) an ''[[Minor Attracted Person\|MAP]]'', if and when they feel a physical attraction, will desire to please and receive pleasure from their partner, like an adult-attracted person would. Any number of [[Research: Psychopathy_and_abnormal psychology\|research articles]] relating to pedophilia (the only form of attraction to minors which is officially pathologized) will confirm this.

			Pedophilic and hebephilic sexual interest, when acted upon is manifested in a fundamentally different way to "[[Wikipedia:Situational offender\|situational sex offending]]". A situational offender might simply be taking advantage of the ''proximity'' or ''convenience'' of a minor, whilst using the taboo nature of the act to instill fear of exposure.

			Psychopathic crimes are of course a completely different class from the aforementioned two, and thankfully very rare. We have to recognize that in any instance, these and other abuses of power causing unavoidable physical and psychological harms in situ would remain against the law or social values, regardless of what [[consent]] laws were being used.

			==Our society normalizes abuse==

			Finally, while abuse of power (beatings, bullying by adults or other minors) can not be excused, such abuses are perpetuated daily without any observation (or acknowledgement) of physical or psychological harm. As they are socially normative traditions, we ignore these abuses of power, permitting violence and physical discipline.

			This begs the question: What if we were to remove the ''societal stigma'' on erotic play, if consented to?

			We could also observe that in playground games (seen by developmental psychologists as "crucial socializing experiences") and at bath time for example, small children are effectively "felt up" against their will. This happens repeatedly, and in ways deemed totally indefensible when certain "motives" are identified.

			Even in very small children, these interactions are not thought to cause mental torture, nor to have "[[Scarred for life\|lifelong consequences]]". Thus, with respect to consensual sex play, the view that harms are inevitable, is totally unwarranted and only risks becoming a dangerous, [[self-fulfilling prophecy]] based on reactionary moral hysterias.

			While there ''is'' a clear hypocrisy in the way we celebrate and encourage non-consensual play among/discipline of "our" children, we should also ask about the social context, i.e. are we creating the need to protect children or minors in general? The [[Debate Guide: Cyclical Paternalism\|cyclical paternalism]] argument will help address this.

	==Stockholm Syndrome==		==Stockholm Syndrome==

The Admins: /* Egalitarian? Secular? */

2024-05-09T13:22:44Z

Egalitarian? Secular?

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:22, 9 May 2024
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	Regardless of its cause, the results of this "egalitarian" sex stigma are plain to see:		Regardless of its cause, the results of this "egalitarian" sex stigma are plain to see:

	*The taboo on underage sex targets girls unfairly; for example in most studies, boys seem almost immune to the stigma - recalling their experiences neutrally or positively.<ref>https://www.ipce.info/library_3/rbt/ma_11.htm#Gender3</ref> ~~Girls~~ on the other hand, are exposed to more forceful contacts, and ~~the~~ emotional ~~terminology~~ women ~~have used to~~ recall their early experiences ~~is highly indicative of mysogynistic post-event conditioning~~.		*The taboo on underage sex targets girls unfairly; for example in most studies, boys seem almost immune to the stigma - recalling their experiences neutrally or positively.<ref>https://www.ipce.info/library_3/rbt/ma_11.htm#Gender3</ref> While girls and women on the other hand, are often exposed to more forceful contacts, this is further exacerbated by mysogynistic stereotypes, hence the [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|more negative and emotional tone]] with which women recall their early experiences, whether as a minor or adult.
	*CSA theory is in essence an over-reaction to deeply entrenched misogynistic practices in society. Modern CSA praxis has an inherent contradiction insofar as this counter-reaction is so severe, it amplifies and excuses misogyny by providing a nativist explanation for the traumas it causes. We should still not forget that both genders suffer from its effects, since CSA is a monolithic belief system that draws false authority from its supposedly liberal-egalitarian underpinnings.		*CSA theory is in essence an over-reaction to deeply entrenched misogynistic practices in society. Modern CSA praxis has an inherent contradiction insofar as this counter-reaction is so severe, it amplifies and excuses misogyny by providing a nativist explanation for the traumas it causes. We should still not forget that both genders suffer from its effects, since CSA is a monolithic belief system that draws false authority from its supposedly liberal-egalitarian underpinnings.

The Admins at 13:15, 9 May 2024

2024-05-09T13:15:54Z

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	Ultimately, if the young were inherently prone to Stockholm Syndrome, there would be no need for parenting behavioral experts who profess "special knowledge" re. controlling "unruly" youngsters.		Ultimately, if the young were inherently prone to Stockholm Syndrome, there would be no need for parenting behavioral experts who profess "special knowledge" re. controlling "unruly" youngsters.

	==Egalitarian?==		==Egalitarian? Secular?==

	It's a convenient and oft-repeated myth that present [[Child Sexual Abuse\|CSA]] praxis is inherently egalitarian - even somehow libertarian, "freeing" minors from adult power. We convince ourselves that protecting minors way into their teens is somehow necessary because "liberal-democratic society" is ''always progressing''; thus we are only now beginning to learn of a dark and hidden history of abuse. This sounds poetic and virtuous, a revelation even, but just doesn't check out against the evidence. It is very easy to establish the modern roots of CSA were in fact [[moral entrepreneur]]s, religious puritanist zealots and "child savers" such as [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]]. This movement initially amplified the witch-hunt in the 1970s, elevating the "sexual predator" and the "trafficked child" to the level of media spectacle. Feminists and psychiatrists then filled the gaps left in what evolved to become highly profitable public discourse during the post-AIDS conservative backlash.		It's a convenient and oft-repeated myth that present [[Child Sexual Abuse\|CSA]] praxis is inherently egalitarian or dispassionately secular<ref>[https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/03/14/atheists-liberals-pedophilia-bestiality/ Can Liberal Atheists REALLY Criticize Pedophilia, Bestiality?]</ref> - even somehow libertarian, "freeing" minors from adult power. We convince ourselves that protecting minors way into their teens is somehow necessary because "liberal-democratic society" is ''always progressing''; thus we are only now beginning to learn of a dark and hidden history of abuse. This sounds poetic and virtuous, a revelation even, but just doesn't check out against the evidence. It is very easy to establish the modern roots of CSA were in fact [[moral entrepreneur]]s, religious puritanist zealots and "child savers" such as [[Judianne Densen-Gerber]]. This movement initially amplified the witch-hunt in the 1970s, elevating the "sexual predator" and the "trafficked child" to the level of media spectacle. Feminists and psychiatrists then filled the gaps left in what evolved to become highly profitable public discourse during the post-AIDS conservative backlash.

	Further, when we trace these recurring panics back in time (there have been around three so far), we find exactly the same circus of moral righteousness ''preceding'' any illusion of objective scientific method or progressivist virtue. The misogyny goes all the way back to the well-documented child prostitution panics in the Victorian era, caused by a moral crisis in post-industrial society. Then in the postwar era, "child molester" panics were centered on the predatory homosexual.		Further, when we trace these recurring panics back in time (there have been around three so far), we find exactly the same circus of moral righteousness ''preceding'' any illusion of objective scientific method or progressivist virtue. The misogyny goes all the way back to the well-documented child prostitution panics in the Victorian era, caused by a moral crisis in post-industrial society. Then in the postwar era, "child molester" panics were centered on the predatory homosexual.

The Admins at 22:35, 12 April 2024

2024-04-12T22:35:24Z

The Admins at 19:05, 11 April 2024

2024-04-11T19:05:25Z

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	__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:		__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:

	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a position of lesser social or physical power/status. Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner, and this is why we call it abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a <u>position of lesser social or physical power/status.</u> Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner, and this is why we call it abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>

	1. If your opponent's intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws, you will have to explain how it would apply to instances in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person. [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].		1. If your opponent's intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws, you will have to explain how it would apply to instances in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person. [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].

The Admins at 19:04, 11 April 2024

2024-04-11T19:04:56Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:04, 11 April 2024
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	__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:		__NOTOC__[[Image:Youth and suitors.jpg\|thumb\|right\|250px\|'''Youth conversing with suitors'''<br>Miniature illustration from the ''Haft Awrang'' of Jami, in the story ''A Father Advises his Son About Love.'' Freer and Sackler Galleries, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC.]]"'''Power disparity'''" or "'''Unlevel playing field'''" argument:

	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is ~~almost~~ invariably in a position of lesser physical power ~~and~~ status. Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner, and is ~~therefore abusive~~.'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The child or adolescent is invariably in a position of lesser social or physical power/status. Considering this, any sexual contact will function only in the interests of the more powerful partner, and this is why we call it abuse.'''''</font></blockquote>

	1. If your opponent's intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws, you will have to explain how it would apply to instances in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person. [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].		1. If your opponent's intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws, you will have to explain how it would apply to instances in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person. [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].

The Admins at 09:08, 29 August 2023

2023-08-29T09:08:03Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:08, 29 August 2023
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	3. Since we are not a ''savage species'' at the personal level, the presence of a natural power gap in no way means that it will be abused. As a youth - lover (in a literal sense) an ''[[Minor Attracted Person\|MAP]]'', if and when they feel a physical attraction, will desire to please and receiving pleasure from their partner, like an adult-attracted person would. Any number of [[Research: Psychopathy_and_abnormal psychology\|research articles]] relating to pedophilia (the only form of attraction to minors which is pathologized) will confirm this. This is in contrast to a "situational sex offender" who might simply be taking advantage of the ''proximity'' or ''convenience'' of a minor, whilst using the taboo nature of the act to instill fear of exposure. Psychopathic crimes are of course a completely different class from the aforementioned two, and thankfully very rare. We have to recognize that in any instance, these and other abuses of power causing unavoidable physical and psychological harms in situ would remain against the law, regardless of what [[consent]] laws were on the books.		3. Since we are not a ''savage species'' at the personal level, the presence of a natural power gap in no way means that it will be abused. As a youth - lover (in a literal sense) an ''[[Minor Attracted Person\|MAP]]'', if and when they feel a physical attraction, will desire to please and receiving pleasure from their partner, like an adult-attracted person would. Any number of [[Research: Psychopathy_and_abnormal psychology\|research articles]] relating to pedophilia (the only form of attraction to minors which is pathologized) will confirm this. This is in contrast to a "situational sex offender" who might simply be taking advantage of the ''proximity'' or ''convenience'' of a minor, whilst using the taboo nature of the act to instill fear of exposure. Psychopathic crimes are of course a completely different class from the aforementioned two, and thankfully very rare. We have to recognize that in any instance, these and other abuses of power causing unavoidable physical and psychological harms in situ would remain against the law, regardless of what [[consent]] laws were on the books.

	4. Finally, while it can not be excused, it~~'s no safe bet that an abuse of power will lead to~~ any physical or psychological harm. ~~This is something~~ we ~~should be happy~~ to ~~point out~~, and ~~should continue~~ to ~~encourage by erasing~~ societal ~~stigmas. After all~~, ~~children suffer~~ in ~~the education system and repeatedly come through beatings and bullying. In~~ playground games (seen by developmental psychologists as crucial socializing experiences) and at ~~bathtime~~ for example, small children are effectively "felt up" against their will, repeatedly and in ways only deemed indefensible when certain "motives" are identified. Even when applied to very small children, these interactions are never seen to cause mental torture, nor to have lifelong consequences. Thus the view that harms are inevitable is totally unwarranted and only risks becoming a dangerous, [[self-fulfilling prophecy]] based on moral hysteria and reactionism.		4. Finally, while abuse of power (beatings, bullying by adults or other children) can not be excused, it is perpetrated daily against children without any apparent physical or psychological harm. Acknowledging this fact isn't a taboo as such - we just ignore the abuses of power to justify them, and thus skirt around the issue as there is no considerable societal stigma on violence or discipline. So what if we were to remove the societal stigma on erotic play, if consented to?

			Furthermore, in playground games (seen by developmental psychologists as "crucial socializing experiences") and at bath time for example, small children are effectively "felt up" against their will, repeatedly and in ways only deemed indefensible when certain "motives" are identified. Even when applied to very small children, these interactions are never seen or expected to cause mental torture, nor to have lifelong consequences. Thus, with respect to consensual sex play, the view that harms are inevitable is totally unwarranted and only risks becoming a dangerous, [[self-fulfilling prophecy]] based on moral hysteria and reactionism.

	Whilst there ''is'' a clear hypocrisy in the way we celebrate and encourage non-consensual play among/discipline of "our" children, we should also ask about the social context, i.e. are we creating the need to protect children or minors in general? The [[Debate Guide: Cyclical Paternalism\|cyclical paternalism]] argument will help address this.		Whilst there ''is'' a clear hypocrisy in the way we celebrate and encourage non-consensual play among/discipline of "our" children, we should also ask about the social context, i.e. are we creating the need to protect children or minors in general? The [[Debate Guide: Cyclical Paternalism\|cyclical paternalism]] argument will help address this.

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:35, 12 April 2024
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	1. If your opponent's intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws, you will have to explain how it would apply to instances in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person. [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].		1. If your opponent's intent is to use this argument to defend [[Age of Consent]] laws, you will have to explain how it would apply to instances in which the youth has more physical, financial, institutional or bargaining power than the older person. [https://www.boywiki.org/en/Historical_boylove_relationships Many such examples have existed throughout history], and [[Accounts and Testimonies\|closer to the present]].

	2. We have to consider whether there ''is in fact a gap'', and whether or not there may be power differentials on ''both sides''. While an adult may excel in physical power, they have [[Power of consequences\|not a leg to stand on legally.]] Since they could be put in a jail cell under suspicion of unlawful sex with a minor within hours, it is the "~~child~~" who has the power ~~invested in them ''by society'' as a result~~ of ~~their own~~ perceived victimhood. So, much of a minor's [[Power of attraction\|power over an adult]] is covert in nature - we can perhaps point to [[Michel Foucault]] for examples of how this power is manifested. It could also be said in layman's terms, that most parents will know deep down ~~that~~ even the youngest child can always say 'no' - often in the most expressive of ways. In this instance, one would have to explain the ''mechanism'' by which a physical ~~relationship cancels out~~ this strength of will.		2. We have to consider whether there ''is in fact a gap'', and whether or not there may be power differentials favoring ''both sides'' in different ways. While an adult may excel in physical power, they have [[Power of consequences\|not a leg to stand on legally.]] Since they could be put in a jail cell under suspicion of unlawful sex with a minor within hours, it is the "minor" who has the power of perceived victimhood. So, much of a minor's [[Power of attraction\|power over an adult]] is covert in nature - we can perhaps point to [[Michel Foucault]] for examples of how this power is manifested. It could also be said in layman's terms, that most parents will know deep down, even the youngest child can always say 'no' - often in the most expressive of ways. In this instance, one would have to explain the ''mechanism'' by which physical relations negate this strength of will.

	If the adult, on the other hand is using threats to subvert the minor's power, then we are witnessing a clear-cut [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria\|adverse consequence]] of age of consent laws, and should really be considering the extent to which these laws are causing psychological tensions and harm to both parties.		If the adult, on the other hand is using threats to subvert the minor's power, then we are witnessing a clear-cut [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria\|adverse consequence]] of [[Debate Guide: Problems with the Age of Consent\|age of consent laws]], and should really be considering the extent to which these laws are causing psychological tensions and harm to both parties.

	3. Since we are not a ''savage species'' at the personal level, the presence of a natural power gap in no way means that it will be abused. As a youth - lover (in a literal sense) an ''[[Minor Attracted Person\|MAP]]'', if and when they feel a physical attraction, will desire to please and ~~receiving~~ pleasure from their partner, like an adult-attracted person would. Any number of [[Research: Psychopathy_and_abnormal psychology\|research articles]] relating to pedophilia (the only form of attraction to minors which is pathologized) will confirm this. This is in contrast to a "situational sex offender" who might simply be taking advantage of the ''proximity'' or ''convenience'' of a minor, whilst using the taboo nature of the act to instill fear of exposure. Psychopathic crimes are of course a completely different class from the aforementioned two, and thankfully very rare. We have to recognize that in any instance, these and other abuses of power causing unavoidable physical and psychological harms in situ would remain against the law, regardless of what [[consent]] laws were ~~on the books~~.		3. Since we are not a ''savage species'' at the personal level, the presence of a natural power gap in no way means that it will be abused. As a youth - lover (in a literal sense) an ''[[Minor Attracted Person\|MAP]]'', if and when they feel a physical attraction, will desire to please and receive pleasure from their partner, like an adult-attracted person would. Any number of [[Research: Psychopathy_and_abnormal psychology\|research articles]] relating to pedophilia (the only form of attraction to minors which is officially pathologized) will confirm this. This is in contrast to a "situational sex offender" who might simply be taking advantage of the ''proximity'' or ''convenience'' of a minor, whilst using the taboo nature of the act to instill fear of exposure. Psychopathic crimes are of course a completely different class from the aforementioned two, and thankfully very rare. We have to recognize that in any instance, these and other abuses of power causing unavoidable physical and psychological harms in situ would remain against the law, regardless of what [[consent]] laws were being used.

	4. Finally, while abuse of power (beatings, bullying by adults or other ~~children~~) can not be excused, it is perpetrated daily against children without any apparent physical or psychological harm. Acknowledging this fact isn't a taboo as such - we just ignore the abuses of power to justify them, and thus skirt around the issue as there is no considerable societal stigma on violence or discipline. So what if we were to remove the societal stigma on erotic play, if consented to?		4. Finally, while abuse of power (beatings, bullying by adults or other minors) can not be excused, it is perpetrated daily against children without any apparent physical or psychological harm. Acknowledging this fact isn't a taboo as such - we just ignore the abuses of power to justify them, and thus skirt around the issue as there is no considerable societal stigma on violence or discipline. So what if we were to remove the societal stigma on erotic play, if consented to?

	Furthermore, in playground games (seen by developmental psychologists as "crucial socializing experiences") and at bath time for example, small children are effectively "felt up" against their will, repeatedly and in ways only deemed indefensible when certain "motives" are identified. Even when applied to very small children, these interactions are never seen or expected to cause mental torture, nor to have lifelong consequences. Thus, with respect to consensual sex play, the view that harms are inevitable is totally unwarranted and only risks becoming a dangerous, [[self-fulfilling prophecy]] based on moral hysteria and reactionism.		Furthermore, in playground games (seen by developmental psychologists as "crucial socializing experiences") and at bath time for example, small children are effectively "felt up" against their will, repeatedly and in ways only deemed indefensible when certain "motives" are identified. Even when applied to very small children, these interactions are never seen or expected to cause mental torture, nor to have lifelong consequences. Thus, with respect to consensual sex play, the view that harms are inevitable is totally unwarranted and only risks becoming a dangerous, [[self-fulfilling prophecy]] based on moral hysteria and reactionism.
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	[[File:Stockholm.png\|thumb\|About Stockholm Syndrome]]		[[File:Stockholm.png\|thumb\|About Stockholm Syndrome]]
	Stockholm Syndrome is often applied to adult-minor relationships in social media debates that touch upon the power disparity argument - and has ~~often~~ been used to support victim narratives in general.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20211206080728/https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/j.1533-8525.2012.01241.x STOCKHOLM SYNDROME AS VERNACULAR RESOURCE]</ref> We describe it as absurd and well past its sell-by-date, because it takes a theory originally intended for ''actual hostages/abductees'' and tries to apply it to personal relationships ''years after the fact''.		Stockholm Syndrome is often applied to adult-minor relationships in social media debates that touch upon the power disparity argument - and has been used to support victim narratives in general.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20211206080728/https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/j.1533-8525.2012.01241.x STOCKHOLM SYNDROME AS VERNACULAR RESOURCE]</ref> We describe it as absurd and well past its sell-by-date, because it takes a theory originally intended for ''actual hostages/abductees'' and tries to apply it to personal relationships, sometimes even ''years after the fact''.

	This particular argument is of course encountered by people who argue from experience, claiming they had positive encounters with an adult as a minor, absent PTSD. Armchair diagnosis of Stockholm Syndrome (better ~~characterised~~ as disrespectful [~~https~~:~~//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/~~Gaslighting gaslighting]) is invariably attempted by those with ''no qualifications in psychology or mental health'' whatsoever. As can be seen from our [[Accounts and Testimonies\|accounts section]], many adults point out ~~that~~ they were the ones with the real power; the [[Power of attraction\|power of attraction]] and the ironic bargaining [[Power of consequences\|power given to them by their perceived victimhood]] as the "minor".		This particular argument is of course encountered by people who argue from experience, claiming they had positive encounters with an adult as a minor, absent PTSD. Armchair diagnosis of Stockholm Syndrome (better characterized as disrespectful [[wikipedia:Gaslighting\|gaslighting]]) is invariably attempted by those with ''no qualifications in psychology or mental health'' whatsoever. As can be seen from our [[Accounts and Testimonies\|accounts section]], many adults point out they were the ones with the real power; the [[Power of attraction\|power of attraction]] and the ironic bargaining [[Power of consequences\|power given to them by their perceived victimhood]] as the "minor".

	The Stockholm Syndrome argument would also have to be applied to countless examples of relationships because positive recall is so common. If it were the case, our [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|surveys and studies]] would suggest that due to their generally positive or neutral recall, a majority of boys were in some way mental captives of their "abusers". At the same time, these very same techniques would have to be held as rarely ever working on girls, or at least not attempted by the adult for some reason. This is because girls often later recall their experiences as ~~abuse~~ (despite ~~only marginally different~~ adjustment outcomes).		The Stockholm Syndrome argument would also have to be applied to countless examples of relationships because positive recall is so common. If it were the case, our [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|surveys and studies]] would suggest that due to their generally positive or neutral recall, a majority of boys were in some way mental captives of their "abusers". At the same time, these very same techniques would have to be held as rarely ever working on girls, or at least not attempted by the adult for some reason. This is because girls more often later recall their experiences as abusive or negative (despite non-significant psychological adjustment outcomes). With females who experienced sexual debut as adult women providing similar negative reactions, we would have to explain why the syndrome does not apply to them.

	Ultimately, if ~~children~~ were inherently prone to Stockholm Syndrome, there would be no need for parenting behavioral experts who profess "special knowledge" re. controlling "unruly" youngsters.		Ultimately, if the young were inherently prone to Stockholm Syndrome, there would be no need for parenting behavioral experts who profess "special knowledge" re. controlling "unruly" youngsters.

	==Egalitarian?==		==Egalitarian?==