Debate Guide: Profound and lifelong scarring - Revision history

Jim Burton at 13:08, 21 October 2025

2025-10-21T13:08:09Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:08, 21 October 2025
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	__NOTOC__[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]<blockquote>		__NOTOC__[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]<blockquote>
	<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to <u>lifelong</u> mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life.'''''</font></blockquote>		<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to <u>lifelong</u> mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life, and the burden they must carry in life is worse than death.'''''</font></blockquote>

	This is a generalization from what appear to be extraordinary (but highly visible) cases:		This is a generalization from what appear to be extraordinary (but highly visible) cases:
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	*[[Research: Secondary Harm]]		*[[Research: Secondary Harm]]

	In ~~some~~ cases, ~~notably the unwanted~~ and/or ~~coerced/cajoled activities (but not always)~~, the ~~younger partner~~ will ~~go on~~ to ~~suffer in some way they believe is connected~~ to the ~~assault~~ or ~~voluntary sex~~. This is ~~also more likely if~~ a ~~young~~ person ~~is coerced into something they are uncomfortable with, because of an adult~~'s ~~abusive authority - although this may also be the case between adults~~.		In such extreme cases of sexual coercion, abuse of authority and/or social stigma, the victim will often be forced to connect the sex act retrospectively to the trauma or stigma reaction, regardless of whether or not they are really connected. This is harmful, since it represents a permanent internalization of trauma, based upon a social stigma the victim cannot control. It has permanent implications for a person's ability to experience sexual pleasure.

	~~However~~, ~~where this argument ultimately fails~~, ~~is that trauma (and/or the perception of being a life-long victim) is~~ not specific to sexuality, ~~even if it does relate to the prevailing sexual attitudes, mores~~ and ~~power status~~ of ~~minors~~. ~~Subsequent memories can be exacerbated by the long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual~~ is ~~repeatedly told~~ to ~~view as dirty~~, ~~shameful and profound. Understandably~~, this ~~can lead to mental disturbances and depression, as can~~ the ~~stigma~~ of ~~[[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-~~sexual ~~events such~~ as ~~having been the ''sole survivor'' of~~ a ~~tragedy that took the lives of loved ones~~.		Lifelong traumas, however, are not specific to sexuality, and have been seen in victims of war. It is offensive to suggest that once a child has been sexually abused, they would be better off dead, since this affirms the prevailing view of their sexual "purity" as a commodity to be controlled by adults and plundered by men.

	~~None of this implies that any form of ''willing'' physical contact/pleasure has a high innate capacity for harm, let alone [[scarred for life\|life~~-~~long mental scarring]]. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide~~: Social ~~Constructionism\|social~~ construct~~]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse.~~		==Abuse-trauma pipeline: Social construct?==

	~~This~~ is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.		The abuse-trauma pipeline is in fact appreciated by many theorists as a misogynistic (but increasingly, a sex-negative) [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] that [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfills its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims. At the very least, it exacerbates the harmful effects of abusive behavior. Mental disturbances and depression suffered by childhood sexual assault victims, and participants in voluntary minor-adult sex, are comparable to those of [[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-sexual events such as having been the ''sole survivor'' of a tragedy that took the lives of loved ones.

			The idea that traumatic sexual experiences have [[scarred for life\|lifelong consequences]], is also heavily embedded within prevailing sexual attitudes, morality and perceptions surrounding the reduced power status of minors. Sex is not inherently dirty, shameful and profound, and in the present day, it should be totally unacceptable to force that view on to young people.

			===Our obligation to victims===

			The possibility of iatrogenic or [[nocebogenic harm]], is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.

	==Challenging social perceptions of your own lived experiences==		==Challenging social perceptions of your own lived experiences==

	One way of overcoming bad memories may be to challenge the sex - negative foundations upon which the value judgments and feelings of shame are based. ~~Your~~ lived experiences are a ~~passive vector~~ of society's own guilt and shame~~; this~~ is not a burden for ~~you~~ to carry. As any fair-minded therapist would ~~tell you~~, carrying that burden would be doing ~~yourself~~ a disservice and potentially making positive relationships impossible for the rest of ~~your~~ life. Therapists who encourage clients to identify as perpetual victims (and therefore perpetual clients) are probably "on the grift"; there are numerous, [[Wikipedia:Satanic panic\|more visible examples]] from history.		One way of overcoming bad memories may be to challenge the sex - negative foundations upon which the value judgments and feelings of shame are based.

			Our lived experiences are, as described above, often a way of coming to terms with society's own guilt and shame by internalizing it. Ultimately, social shame is not a burden for us to carry. As any fair-minded therapist would inform us, carrying that burden would be doing a disservice to oneself, and potentially making positive relationships impossible for the rest of our life.

			Therapists who encourage clients to identify as perpetual victims (and therefore perpetual clients) are probably "on the grift"; there are numerous, [[Wikipedia:Satanic panic\|more visible examples]] from history.

	=="Adaptive" argument==		=="Adaptive" argument==
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	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an <u>evolutionary adaptation</u> against underage sex.'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an <u>evolutionary adaptation</u> against underage sex.'''''</font></blockquote>

	The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].		The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]]. To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists. After all, when a dog bites you, or you stub your toe, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate.

	To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they are stumped by harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults. When ~~a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when~~ we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], ~~it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further~~, there is no evidence of ~~''even~~ delayed'' trauma. And by the time we ~~had~~ pushed ~~that~~ window all the way out to the end of life, there ~~was still~~ no evidence!<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>		When we look at the overall data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], however, there is ultimately no evidence of this delayed trauma. And by the time we have pushed the abuse-recall window all the way out to the end of life, there is predictably no evidence of a connection to trauma.<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref> This is not to deny that isolated individuals may perceive their experiences of trauma in such a way, but it is simply not supported by cold, hard averages, and metrics of psychological dysfunction.

	We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?		We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have "evolved" in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?

	==Excerpt Graphic Library==		==Excerpt Graphic Library==

The Admins at 21:05, 31 May 2024

2024-05-31T21:05:32Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:05, 31 May 2024
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	__NOTOC__~~<blockquote>~~		__NOTOC__[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]<blockquote>
	[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]
	<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to <u>lifelong</u> mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life.'''''</font></blockquote>		<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to <u>lifelong</u> mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life.'''''</font></blockquote>

The Admins at 18:25, 5 May 2024

2024-05-05T18:25:31Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:25, 5 May 2024
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	However, where this argument ultimately fails, is that trauma (and/or the perception of being a life-long victim) is not specific to sexuality, even if it does relate to the prevailing sexual attitudes, mores and power status of minors. Subsequent memories can be exacerbated by the long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual is repeatedly told to view as dirty, shameful and profound. Understandably, this can lead to mental disturbances and depression, as can the stigma of [[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-sexual events such as having been the ''sole survivor'' of a tragedy that took the lives of loved ones.		However, where this argument ultimately fails, is that trauma (and/or the perception of being a life-long victim) is not specific to sexuality, even if it does relate to the prevailing sexual attitudes, mores and power status of minors. Subsequent memories can be exacerbated by the long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual is repeatedly told to view as dirty, shameful and profound. Understandably, this can lead to mental disturbances and depression, as can the stigma of [[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-sexual events such as having been the ''sole survivor'' of a tragedy that took the lives of loved ones.

	None of this implies that any form of ''willing'' physical contact/pleasure has a high innate capacity for harm, let alone life-long mental scarring. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse.		None of this implies that any form of ''willing'' physical contact/pleasure has a high innate capacity for harm, let alone [[scarred for life\|life-long mental scarring]]. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse.

	This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.		This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.

The Admins: /* "Adaptive" argument */

2024-04-14T18:37:03Z

"Adaptive" argument

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:37, 14 April 2024
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	The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].		The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].

	To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they are stumped by harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults. When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of delayed trauma. And by the time we had pushed that window all the way out to the end of life, there was still no evidence!<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>		To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they are stumped by harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults. When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of ''even delayed'' trauma. And by the time we had pushed that window all the way out to the end of life, there was still no evidence!<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>

	We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?		We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?

The Admins: /* "Adaptive" argument */

2024-04-14T18:35:56Z

"Adaptive" argument

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:35, 14 April 2024
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	=="Adaptive" argument==		=="Adaptive" argument==

	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an <u>evolutionary adaptation</u> against underage sex'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an <u>evolutionary adaptation</u> against underage sex.'''''</font></blockquote>

	The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].		The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].

The Admins at 18:32, 14 April 2024

2024-04-14T18:32:04Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:32, 14 April 2024
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	__NOTOC__<blockquote>		__NOTOC__<blockquote>
	[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]		[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]
	<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to lifelong mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life'''''</font></blockquote>		<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to <u>lifelong</u> mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life.'''''</font></blockquote>

	This generalization ~~may not~~ be ~~true~~:		This is a generalization from what appear to be extraordinary (but highly visible) cases:

	*[[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes]]		*[[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes]]
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	*[[Research: Secondary Harm]]		*[[Research: Secondary Harm]]

	In some cases, notably the unwanted and/or coerced/cajoled activities, ~~lifelong mental scarring~~ is ~~ignited by a "sexual" attack~~. ~~There~~ is also ~~the possibility of~~ a ~~younger participant feeling~~ coerced into something they ~~dislike~~, because of ~~the~~ adult's abusive authority~~. This is not in any way specific to sexuality and has more to do with sexual attitudes, mores and unhealthy authority relationships. Subsequent memories can~~ also be ~~exacerbated by~~ the ~~long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual is repeatedly told to view as dirty, shameful and profound. Understandably, this can easily lead to mental disturbances and depression~~.		In some cases, notably the unwanted and/or coerced/cajoled activities (but not always), the younger partner will go on to suffer in some way they believe is connected to the assault or voluntary sex. This is also more likely if a young person is coerced into something they are uncomfortable with, because of an adult's abusive authority - although this may also be the case between adults.

	~~None of~~ this ~~implies~~ that ~~any form~~ of ~~willing physical contact/pleasure has~~ a ~~high capacity for harm, let alone~~ life-long ~~mental scarring. You could~~ even ~~say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]]~~ of ~~abuse trauma [[Self~~-~~fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds~~ of ~~its victims~~, ~~or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse~~. ~~This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded~~ to ~~investigate~~ the ~~possibility~~ of~~, since we know from studies that the '''~~[[~~Research: Secondary Harm~~\|~~perception of ones own experiences~~]] ~~as abusive~~ or non-~~abusive is a major modifier of outcome~~'''~~. From this, we can conclude~~ that ~~changes in broader social perceptions and~~ the ~~promotion~~ of ~~youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes~~.		However, where this argument ultimately fails, is that trauma (and/or the perception of being a life-long victim) is not specific to sexuality, even if it does relate to the prevailing sexual attitudes, mores and power status of minors. Subsequent memories can be exacerbated by the long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual is repeatedly told to view as dirty, shameful and profound. Understandably, this can lead to mental disturbances and depression, as can the stigma of [[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-sexual events such as having been the ''sole survivor'' of a tragedy that took the lives of loved ones.

	~~==If~~ a ~~personal perspective~~ of abuse ~~is indicated==~~		None of this implies that any form of ''willing'' physical contact/pleasure has a high innate capacity for harm, let alone life-long mental scarring. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse.

	One way of overcoming bad memories, may be to challenge the sex - negative foundations upon which the value judgments and feelings of shame are based. ~~No one needs to associate their pain with their sexual history when the perceived "sexual acts" (even if coercive)~~ are a passive vector of society's guilt. As any fair-minded therapist would tell you, that would be doing yourself a disservice and ~~encouraging forms of neurosis that may make present~~ relationships impossible. Therapists who encourage clients to ~~see themselves through a sex-stigma lens~~ as perpetual victims are probably ~~unprincipled hacks who are~~ on the grift.		This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.

			==Challenging social perceptions of your own lived experiences==

			One way of overcoming bad memories may be to challenge the sex - negative foundations upon which the value judgments and feelings of shame are based. Your lived experiences are a passive vector of society's own guilt and shame; this is not a burden for you to carry. As any fair-minded therapist would tell you, carrying that burden would be doing yourself a disservice and potentially making positive relationships impossible for the rest of your life. Therapists who encourage clients to identify as perpetual victims (and therefore perpetual clients) are probably "on the grift"; there are numerous, [[Wikipedia:Satanic panic\|more visible examples]] from history.

	=="Adaptive" argument==		=="Adaptive" argument==

	<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an evolutionary adaptation against underage sex'''''</font></blockquote>		<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an <u>evolutionary adaptation</u> against underage sex'''''</font></blockquote>

			The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].

	~~In this case~~, why would ~~the trauma~~ delay its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they ~~encounter data concerning~~ harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults? When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of delayed trauma. And ~~this remains~~ the ~~case by~~ the end of life ~~as well.~~<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>		To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they are stumped by harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults. When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of delayed trauma. And by the time we had pushed that window all the way out to the end of life, there was still no evidence!<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>

	We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?		We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?

	~~The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rationalization of antisexualism.~~

	==Excerpt Graphic Library==		==Excerpt Graphic Library==

The Admins: /* "Adaptive" argument */

2024-03-31T16:53:39Z

"Adaptive" argument

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:53, 31 March 2024
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	We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?		We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?

	The evolutionary argument appears to be a rationalization of antisexualism.		The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rationalization of antisexualism.

	==Excerpt Graphic Library==		==Excerpt Graphic Library==

The Admins at 16:48, 31 March 2024

2024-03-31T16:48:22Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:48, 31 March 2024
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	__NOTOC__<blockquote>		__NOTOC__<blockquote>
	[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]		[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]
	<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to lifelong mental scarring. This harm is intrinsic. They/we are victims for life'''''</font></blockquote>		<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to lifelong mental scarring. This [[intrinsic harm\|harm is intrinsic]]. They/we are victims for life'''''</font></blockquote>

	This generalization may not be true:		This generalization may not be true:

The Admins at 03:50, 21 March 2024

2024-03-21T03:50:29Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:50, 21 March 2024
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	==External links==		==External links==

	*[https://~~www~~.~~freespeechtube.org~~/v/~~103x~~ Video: Is sex bad for kids? (Series of videos priming against the idea)]		*[https://fstube.net/w/aSKe2Ktu9iEFgQEHWZgb33 Video: Is sex bad for kids? (Series of videos priming against the idea)]

	==References==		==References==

	[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Sociological]][[Category:Debating Points: Child/Minor]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]		[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Sociological]][[Category:Debating Points: Child/Minor]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]

The Admins at 15:53, 19 August 2022

2022-08-19T15:53:13Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:53, 19 August 2022
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	<blockquote>		__NOTOC__<blockquote>
	[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]		[[File:2022.png\|thumb\|2022 debate rebuttal to harm argument]]
	<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to lifelong mental scarring. This harm is intrinsic. They/we are victims for life'''''</font></blockquote>		<font color="green">'''''Child sexual abuse is unique, in that it almost invariably leads to lifelong mental scarring. This harm is intrinsic. They/we are victims for life'''''</font></blockquote>
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	None of this implies that any form of willing physical contact/pleasure has a high capacity for harm, let alone life-long mental scarring. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of its victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse. This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.		None of this implies that any form of willing physical contact/pleasure has a high capacity for harm, let alone life-long mental scarring. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of its victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse. This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.

	If a personal perspective of abuse is indicated:		==If a personal perspective of abuse is indicated==

	One way of overcoming bad memories, may be to challenge the sex - negative foundations upon which the value judgments and feelings of shame are based. No one needs to associate their pain with their sexual history when the perceived "sexual acts" (even if coercive) are a passive vector of society's guilt. As any fair-minded therapist would tell you, that would be doing yourself a disservice and encouraging forms of neurosis that may make present relationships impossible. Therapists who encourage clients to see themselves through a sex-stigma lens as perpetual victims are probably unprincipled hacks who are in on a ~~grift~~.		One way of overcoming bad memories, may be to challenge the sex - negative foundations upon which the value judgments and feelings of shame are based. No one needs to associate their pain with their sexual history when the perceived "sexual acts" (even if coercive) are a passive vector of society's guilt. As any fair-minded therapist would tell you, that would be doing yourself a disservice and encouraging forms of neurosis that may make present relationships impossible. Therapists who encourage clients to see themselves through a sex-stigma lens as perpetual victims are probably unprincipled hacks who are on the grift.

			=="Adaptive" argument==

			<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Trauma is an evolutionary adaptation against underage sex'''''</font></blockquote>

			In this case, why would the trauma delay its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they encounter data concerning harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults? When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of delayed trauma. And this remains the case by the end of life as well.<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>

			We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?

			The evolutionary argument appears to be a rationalization of antisexualism.

	==Excerpt Graphic Library==		==Excerpt Graphic Library==
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	*[https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/103x Video: Is sex bad for kids? (Series of videos priming against the idea)]		*[https://www.freespeechtube.org/v/103x Video: Is sex bad for kids? (Series of videos priming against the idea)]

			==References==

	[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Sociological]][[Category:Debating Points: Child/Minor]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]		[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Sociological]][[Category:Debating Points: Child/Minor]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:25, 5 May 2024
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	However, where this argument ultimately fails, is that trauma (and/or the perception of being a life-long victim) is not specific to sexuality, even if it does relate to the prevailing sexual attitudes, mores and power status of minors. Subsequent memories can be exacerbated by the long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual is repeatedly told to view as dirty, shameful and profound. Understandably, this can lead to mental disturbances and depression, as can the stigma of [[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-sexual events such as having been the ''sole survivor'' of a tragedy that took the lives of loved ones.		However, where this argument ultimately fails, is that trauma (and/or the perception of being a life-long victim) is not specific to sexuality, even if it does relate to the prevailing sexual attitudes, mores and power status of minors. Subsequent memories can be exacerbated by the long-lasting memory of an experience that an individual is repeatedly told to view as dirty, shameful and profound. Understandably, this can lead to mental disturbances and depression, as can the stigma of [[Masturbation\|masturbation]], or even non-sexual events such as having been the ''sole survivor'' of a tragedy that took the lives of loved ones.

	None of this implies that any form of ''willing'' physical contact/pleasure has a high innate capacity for harm, let alone life-long mental scarring. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse.		None of this implies that any form of ''willing'' physical contact/pleasure has a high innate capacity for harm, let alone [[scarred for life\|life-long mental scarring]]. You could even say that what we are seeing is a [[Debate Guide: Social Constructionism\|social construct]] of abuse trauma [[Self-fulfilling prophecy\|fulfilling its own prophecy]] in the minds of victims, or at the very least exacerbating fundamentally harmful abuse.

	This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.		This is something that any good-meaning victim advocate should be minded to investigate the possibility of, since we know from studies that the '''[[Research: Secondary Harm\|perception of ones own experiences]] as abusive or non-abusive is a major modifier of outcome'''. From this, we can conclude that changes in broader social perceptions and the promotion of youth agency over [[Debate Guide: Cyclical paternalism\|traditional authority relationships]] will reduce the prevalence of negative outcomes.

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:37, 14 April 2024
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	The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].		The [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality\|evolutionary argument]] appears to be a rather thin rationalization of modern day [[Wikipedia:Antisexualism\|antisexualism]].

	To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they are stumped by harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults. When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of delayed trauma. And by the time we had pushed that window all the way out to the end of life, there was still no evidence!<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>		To humor that argument, we could ask why this trauma would ''delay'' its onset by 5-10 or more years, as famously claimed by victimologists every time they are stumped by harmless voluntary sex between minors and adults. When a dog bites you, or you hit yourself on a rock, the pain response (and disincentive) is immediate. However, when we look at the data [[Research: Prevalence of Harm and Negative Outcomes\|concerning CSA]], it appears that whenever researchers push the recall widow out yet further, there is no evidence of ''even delayed'' trauma. And by the time we had pushed that window all the way out to the end of life, there was still no evidence!<ref>[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35232293/ Wang Y, Chen X, Zhou K, Zhang H. A Meta-Analysis of the Effects of Childhood Maltreatment on Elderly Depression. Trauma Violence Abuse. 2022 Mar 1:15248380211073838. doi: 10.1177/15248380211073838.]</ref>

	We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?		We should also question how this "disincentive response" appears to have evolved in the relatively short period (2 centuries, and a few generations) in which anti-sex attitudes concerning youth have become widespread in some societies. If this is in fact a longer-term genetic trend, how did all the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History\|great civilizations]] routinely practicing/institutionalizing these acts even survive to prosper and defeat other civilizations?