Debate Guide: Religious arguments - Revision history

Jim Burton at 14:36, 22 March 2025

2025-03-22T14:36:17Z

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	<blockquote>''I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.''<br>'''Ezekiel 16:7-8'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.''<br>'''Ezekiel 16:7-8'''</blockquote>

	Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18), and that Mary gave birth to Jesus in her teens, likely between the ages of 12 and 16, although the oldest documented source on the matter, the Gospel of James, posits Mary's age at 12 <ref>Protoevangelium of James, Ch. 8 and 9, https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm</ref>. The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.		Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18), and that Mary gave birth to Jesus in her teens, likely between the ages of 12 and 16, although the oldest documented source on the matter, the Gospel of James, posits Mary's age at 12.<ref>Protoevangelium of James, Ch. 8 and 9, https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm</ref> The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.

	==Transgender Youth tangent==		==Transgender Youth tangent==

GeoTerra: /* Typical argument and rebuttals */

2025-01-22T20:35:51Z

Typical argument and rebuttals

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	<blockquote>''I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.''<br>'''Ezekiel 16:7-8'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.''<br>'''Ezekiel 16:7-8'''</blockquote>

	Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.		Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18), and that Mary gave birth to Jesus in her teens, likely between the ages of 12 and 16, although the oldest documented source on the matter, the Gospel of James, posits Mary's age at 12 <ref>Protoevangelium of James, Ch. 8 and 9, https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm</ref>. The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.

	==Transgender Youth tangent==		==Transgender Youth tangent==

GeoTerra: /* Typical argument and rebuttals */

2024-09-22T00:34:00Z

Typical argument and rebuttals

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	<blockquote>''But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.''<br>'''1 Corinthians 7:36'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.''<br>'''1 Corinthians 7:36'''</blockquote>

			<blockquote>''I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.''<br>'''Ezekiel 16:7-8'''</blockquote>

	Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.		Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.

The Admins at 19:07, 21 September 2024

2024-09-21T19:07:39Z

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	Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.		Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.

			==Transgender Youth tangent==

			Critics will sometimes attempt to up the stakes by introducing [[Transgender youth and attraction to minors\|the modern phenomenon of transitioning youth]] as a tangent, invoking a descent to debauched [[degeneracy]] and civilizational decline by tying it to minor-attraction. However, early Christianity forcefully transitioned children by creating Eunuchs.

			[[Wikipedia:Eunuchs in the Byzantine Empire\|Eunuchs were common in the Byzantine Empire]] and much has been written about the relationship between Christianity and religious castration.<ref>[https://sci-hub.se/10.1163/157007297X00291 Caner, D. F. (1997). The Practice and Prohibition of Self-Castration in Early Christianity.]</ref> Similarly, "traditional" American society [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History#America (Mid 19th-20th) Century\|made use]] of cross-dressing male teen prostitutes.

	==References==		==References==

	[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Adults]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]		[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Adults]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]

GeoTerra at 19:11, 11 March 2024

2024-03-11T19:11:25Z

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	There are also several verses in the Bible that seem to approve of adult-child ''marriage'':		There are also several verses in the Bible that seem to approve of adult-child ''marriage'':

			[[File:Abrahamic faiths.png\|thumb\|Summary of Abrahamic faiths' position on intergenerational intimacy.]]
	[[File:Judaeoc.png\|thumb\|Judaeo-Christian legal and scriptural takes on younger-older relations (expands). Dark excerpts likely from Florence Rush<ref>[https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=6271E61B5C2B5EEE715A26855FE75F46 The Best Kept Secret]</ref>]][[File:Permittedislam.png\|thumb\|Some behaviors permitted in Islamic [[Youth-Adult Marriage]]s<ref>[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Thighing Thighing - WikiIslam]</ref>]]		[[File:Judaeoc.png\|thumb\|Judaeo-Christian legal and scriptural takes on younger-older relations (expands). Dark excerpts likely from Florence Rush<ref>[https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=6271E61B5C2B5EEE715A26855FE75F46 The Best Kept Secret]</ref>]][[File:Permittedislam.png\|thumb\|Some behaviors permitted in Islamic [[Youth-Adult Marriage]]s<ref>[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Thighing Thighing - WikiIslam]</ref>]]
	<blockquote>''And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.''<br>'''Numbers 31:1-18'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.''<br>'''Numbers 31:1-18'''</blockquote>

JohnHolt at 00:49, 18 February 2024

2024-02-18T00:49:10Z

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	[[File:Millst.jpg\|thumb\|Better A Millstone was also the name of a "pedo hunter" website founded by the late [[Mike Echols]].]]		[[File:Millst.jpg\|thumb\|Better A Millstone was also the name of a "pedo hunter" website founded by the late [[Mike Echols]].]]
	In ~~this age~~, religion-based arguments are not considered effective when discussing the morality of a particular subject. Still, they are ~~sometimes~~ used, so it may be worth refuting any erroneous arguments on the supposed immorality of [[pedophilia]], [[Minor Attracted Person\|minor attractions]], adult-child relationships - and by extension even adult-minor relationships well beyond adulthood/~~marrigeable~~ age for biblical times.		In modern western society, religion-based arguments are not considered effective when discussing the morality of a particular subject. Still, they are used in some circumstances and cultures, so it may be worth refuting any erroneous arguments on the supposed immorality of [[pedophilia]], [[Minor Attracted Person\|minor attractions]], adult-child relationships - and by extension even adult-minor relationships well beyond adulthood/marriageable age for biblical times.

	===Typical argument and rebuttals===		===Typical argument and rebuttals===

JohnHolt at 00:45, 18 February 2024

2024-02-18T00:45:19Z

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	There are also several verses in the Bible that seem to approve of adult-child ''marriage'':		There are also several verses in the Bible that seem to approve of adult-child ''marriage'':
	[[File:Judaeoc.png\|thumb\|Judaeo-Christian legal and scriptural takes on younger-older relations (expands)]][[File:Permittedislam.png\|thumb\|Some behaviors permitted in Islamic [[Youth-Adult Marriage]]s<ref>[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Thighing Thighing - WikiIslam]</ref>]]		[[File:Judaeoc.png\|thumb\|Judaeo-Christian legal and scriptural takes on younger-older relations (expands). Dark excerpts likely from Florence Rush<ref>[https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=6271E61B5C2B5EEE715A26855FE75F46 The Best Kept Secret]</ref>]][[File:Permittedislam.png\|thumb\|Some behaviors permitted in Islamic [[Youth-Adult Marriage]]s<ref>[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Thighing Thighing - WikiIslam]</ref>]]
	<blockquote>''And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.''<br>'''Numbers 31:1-18'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.''<br>'''Numbers 31:1-18'''</blockquote>

Gork: /* Typical argument and rebuttals */

2023-09-22T23:51:28Z

Typical argument and rebuttals

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	===Typical argument and rebuttals===		===Typical argument and rebuttals===

	Religious [[anti]]-MAPs, namely anti-MAP Christians tend to present a distorted narrative using misconstrued or misunderstood verses from the Bible to justify the view that Christianity condemns [[pedophilia]] in particular, or at the very least adult-child relationships or the act of sex between a child and an adult.		Religious [[anti]]-MAPs, namely anti-MAP Christians, tend to present a distorted narrative using misconstrued or misunderstood verses from the Bible to justify the view that Christianity condemns [[pedophilia]] in particular, or at the very least adult-child relationships or the act of sex between a child and an adult.

	This is false, and should be refuted because the narrative is used to justify specific contemporary views on pedophilia associated with modern Western culture. These arguments present a distorted view of history, and a book written two millennia ago, with parts that are much older. This is [[Wikipedia:Historical revisionism\|ahistorical and revisionist]], assuming widely held views were the same back then, and by implication throughout known history.		This is false, and should be refuted because the narrative is used to justify specific contemporary views on pedophilia associated with modern Western culture. These arguments present a distorted view of history, and a book written two millennia ago, with parts that are much older. This is [[Wikipedia:Historical revisionism\|ahistorical and revisionist]], assuming widely held views were the same back then, and by implication throughout known history.

The Admins at 18:37, 22 September 2023

2023-09-22T18:37:59Z

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	<blockquote>''But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.''<br>'''Matthew 18:6'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.''<br>'''Matthew 18:6'''</blockquote>

	This passage, if it even refers to children ("little ones"), rather than believers in general as ~~some~~ sources would interpret, refers to making them sin (for example, harming or deceiving others), in general, sometimes translated as "to stumble", i.e. making them stray from faith in God.		This passage, if it even refers to children ("little ones"), rather than believers in general as sources would interpret,<ref>[https://www.gotquestions.org/little-ones.html Who are the “little ones” in Matthew 18:6?]</ref> refers to making them sin (for example, harming or deceiving others), in general, sometimes translated as "to stumble", i.e. making them stray from faith in God.

	While there are many verses in the Bible condemning of fornication (sex outside of marriage) which as such could be considered a sin, this argument alone definitely does not cut it as an anti-MAP/anti-pedophilia argument, considering child marriage historically being commonplace, and certainly would not work as an argument against the mere attraction.		While there are many verses in the Bible condemning of fornication (sex outside of marriage) which as such could be considered a sin, this argument alone definitely does not cut it as an anti-MAP/anti-pedophilia argument, considering child marriage historically being commonplace, and certainly would not work as an argument against the mere attraction.

The Admins at 18:22, 22 September 2023

2023-09-22T18:22:14Z

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	There are also several verses in the Bible that seem to approve of adult-child ''marriage'':		There are also several verses in the Bible that seem to approve of adult-child ''marriage'':
	[[File:Judaeoc.png\|thumb\|Judaeo-Christian legal and scriptural takes on younger-older relations (expands)]]		[[File:Judaeoc.png\|thumb\|Judaeo-Christian legal and scriptural takes on younger-older relations (expands)]][[File:Permittedislam.png\|thumb\|Some behaviors permitted in Islamic [[Youth-Adult Marriage]]s<ref>[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Thighing Thighing - WikiIslam]</ref>]]
	<blockquote>''And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.''<br>'''Numbers 31:1-18'''</blockquote>		<blockquote>''And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.''<br>'''Numbers 31:1-18'''</blockquote>

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	Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.		Some scholars also argue that Isaac married his wife when she was ten (Genesis 24:12-20, Numbers 31:18). The bible also directly opposes hate as sinful (Matthew 5:44-48, Luke 6:27-35, Luke 6:37), and therefore one must assume, the witch-hunt on "pedophiles" exemplified by obscene and demonic imagery in media and literary representations since at least the 1970s (e.g. [[David Sonenschein]] - ''Pedophiles on Parade'', vol.1). Bringing harm unto children is also sinful (1st John 3:11, 3:18, 3:23), meaning that [[Wikipedia:sociogenesis\|sociogenic harm]] (invasion of privacy, criminal processing and social shaming of children) is thusly condemned.

			==References==

	[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Adults]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]		[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Adults]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]