14 comments on "If it comes down on Free Spirits…"

• So does the intent continue to match the purpose?

  Over the years, many of us have been in a similar pissing match with various vigilantes.

  I don’t agree with sitting on ones hands and I’ve had my years of going beyond civil means.

  I am really just another faceless, no name sod that doesn’t have the right the right to be recognized nor heard. I accept that.

  I rather enjoy a bit of ambiguity… I leave myself open and both sides become doubtful or unsure of my intentions.

  The classic PJ reponse will be to strike out ten times harder whether they make mistakes or not.

  But we know the reality likely will look down upon us… our actions, proclaim this as an act of fear and vengeance.

  the media will likely bring the perspective that this is just how dangerous we are .. that by golly, we can pull up the same information they try to use upon us. And in turn, we could use those skills to track down anyone, even kids.

  These little turf wars while an entertaining release.. don’t provide us with much in the end.

  Its a futile cycle in a way.

  I suppose though if anything maybe it will deter the fad of independent vigilantes from joining the leagues; a level of personal accountability in the risk.

  But how far will this ‘eye for an eye’ go…. we it become similar to the passing of the list of writers, artists, bloggers or amazonian reviewers publicized for little more than being suspect.

  Is this where it may follow?

  If you ask the proverbial community to draw a line and make a stand, most of them are still going to remain seated.

  The purpose of releasing his address doesn’t do much other than the promote an ethic of fear.

  His work, lifestyle, sexuality and interests are left intact. Who will take a second glance? He’s already a public figure.

  And with this he’s only elevated to the the role of a martyr.

  What damage is done, to his cause, to his name, to his life and livelihood… knowing his address does nothing but promote an aspect of fear and the dark imaginative turns all this could follow…

  and besides, if you were going to go for that route,

  a route they have regularly employed and been known to take in opposition of other groups, which perhaps is a bit more suiting to this kind of display… you go for the weakest links in the chain, one by one, until you’ve revealed a map detailing all its flaws.

  Their work has always had a bit of a free go, a lesser of evils in the eyes of public support. But if you know what makes a person tick, achilles heel, the obscure interests or hobbies, the things that don’t catch the public eye… well, even the public salivates over watching a hero fall.

  But even then, how far do you expect this to go?

  Though, I suppose it makes for a fair publicity stunt.

• Particularly after the last week or so, I feel it is important to say this.

  Not everybody in the online BL/GL communities supports this type of behavior, and I personally have taken a stern stance denouncing it.

  These are for very practical, careful and sound reasons.

  We are living in a world that is looking for any reason to bite us in the ass…No matter how unfair, there is no way this public display will ever help us, when we are lacking a sizable groups of people who will actually use that information…

  …In other words, if we had even just an association of a thousand vocal people, who would honestly apply pressure to get these people to back off…then, there might be some value in such a public post.

  Further, we need a general public consensus which acknowledges us as valid, non-harmful…and fed up with watching us being unjustly treated in ways that nobody should have to endure.

  This would actually back us up, and shelter us from a large backlash, from that same general public.

  As things stand, we should not be publicly posting this information anywhere…because we can not count on anything coming of it, and it will only be fodder for the people attacking us…

  …because now they will claim that they are being targeted and harassed…To an ignorant public, we will easily fall into the “pedophile terrorist” stereotype which some groups have been trying to construct around us.

  We can collect and share this information amongst our communities…but it should not be posted in public, at least until we have some real course of action with teeth…if ever…

  I am all for going after these creeps, through legal channels, wherever we can.

  I am not for setting ourselves up as fall guys, in some bogus accusations of “pedophile terrorism”.

  There is no good reason to be doing this, at this point in time. It implies to many things, even with any disclaimers.

  The fact that this is the second time it is occurring on this blog, is a bit unsettling…and I’m wondering how far this can go, before it starts compromising my own stance.

  Of course they deserve it…but you are opening up yourself to some very real, legal dangers…perhaps other dangers, too.

  This is the main reason why the BC cogs were in the right, when they took down your post…and for the record, if I were still in that position and saw anyone being outed, I would have done the same thing.

  BC is not the proper medium for that, and it needs to be respected for what it is…a medium which exists to provide public communication for BLs…and nothing more.

  We need places like that online, and we need not to compromise those places ability to continue existing. Part of their strength is that they are neutral, and remain such.

  We may not be able to do any heavy activism there…but at least they will continue to be there, as a connecting point.

  Look…with the rikijo outing several months back, that blog owner who refused you service, the AZ member outed and now this…my tolerance is starting to get thin with this trend.

  We are not terrorists, looking to terrorize these people.

  This kind of behavior can get out of hand, quickly. This is a very thin tightrope being walked, and I hope you have the foresight to fully appreciate this.

  I cant dictate what is posted here and would not think of trying to. However, some things just are not wise…under different circumstances, maybe they would be…Today, it is just reckless.

  I don’t see whatever weak and improbably “good” someone has supposed will come of this (is there any clear specified goal?), as outweighing the much more likely danger of this coming back to bite “us”.

  I was going to reserve this general message for a private e-mail, but on second thought I feel it is important to make these views clear, out in the open.

  People need to know that this is not what “we” stand for…even though some people will do this.

  I hate to be at odds here, but I also hate that this is happening and would be betraying my own ethics if I said nothing.

• Pt.1:

  I hate to be at odds here, but I also hate that this is happening and would be betraying my own ethics if I said nothing.

  I do not find it troublesome being at odds. As you can see, my post on Boychat and Cat’s post on Girlchat both divided the communities, and I went forward to re-post the information here, knowing full well that the ten or so others who had subscribed, would probably not agree to the point of consensus (and if they disagree to the point of consensus, I shall remove the post).

  As you know, I have actively welcomed dissenting and controversial speech in this community, and have stressed that there should not necessarily be a shared voice. It is a fault of many communities (such as boychat), that they constrain the original ethos too much, leading to disinterest, or the less-than-desirable alternative of self-destruction.

  That isn’t to say that I would ever allow anything that matched my own version of “could be seen as advocating terrorism”. But I do think that the current state of affairs is good for consensus (i.e. not predetermined), as the way that we act can be debated and ultimately determined after discussions. It is also important for outsiders to see that we do not all adhere to a doctrine of brainwashing.

  Examples of this include the post of Viamund, some distance down the front page now, in that I agree with you that there is no reason to denounce groups of “normal” people who also have an axe to grind with the tactics of Perverted-Justice. I have also worked happily with people who think that even the most playful sexual activity between a child and an adult should equal jail time. We would be worse off without that kind of diversity. My views on diversity are not so much that it has an inherent benefit, but a perceptive one.

• Let me address the debate around “terrorist” interpretations of what Cat and myself have done.

  I am glad that you – unlike some others have clearly stated that such accusations would be bogus. But I am unaware of where such accusations would come from. As for the guys at PJ, well, if they made such an accusation, that would be a candy shop of hypocrisy. We could take our pick from all of the rebuttals to that, and so would a sizeable proportion of the mainstream opposition.

  As for the mainstream media itself, I doubt that all but a small proportion would be willing to exclude the obvious parralel with PJ, and indeed the fact that far “worse” than us, they take it to the level of personal harassment, inciting suicides, etc. Ultimately, even if this did gain attention from the media, the perception would probably be one of “two groups of people at each other’s throat”. As we are already in a position of dire peril, publicity, and polarising publicity at that, is in my mind, without doubt one of the most unconditionally good things that can happen to us. And if such a hideously biased story did come about, think about it in terms of the risk of a backlash for the PJ lobby from that point onwards.

  With all that said, I think that this example of outing is not extreme enough for the media to pick up on anyway, although it may be the case that I have underestimated the American media’s zeal for personal security.

  And whilst my actual arguments for this move can be found on the BC forum, I will conclude by stating that it is my honest belief that most people in the UK at least, would not bat an eyelid at someone’s address being published, and pointing out the potential characterisation is among the greatest threats to that state of affairs.

• Just one or two late additions:

  Look…with the rikijo outing several months back, that blog owner who refused you service, the AZ member outed and now this…my tolerance is starting to get thin with this trend.

  As this was personally addressed, I do not understand how you applied the Rikijo case and the AZ member. I think that I carbon copied you on a link to Jan Kruska’s expose of some woman who designed the AZ blog, but I don’t know for sure.

  I am aware of no legal threats that may arise as a result of my posting. I have already dismissed someone who rightly raised concern over the legality of one of your posts (that, to be fair, I asked you to post). That’s not to be nasty, but just to point out that there are differing concerns for different people

  Regards,

  Daniel.

• “I am all for going after these creeps, through legal channels”

  well some of those anti videos on youtube are using popular US Music, particularly signifcant is a Violet Leaves one that uses a “song” by Eminem who was one of the anti-Napster lobby wasnt he?

  I wonder have Violet, Stich, JC etc, got copyright clearance to use the music? And are the RIAA aware? Just askin…

• RNS – the answer to the copyright question is almost certainly no.

  But are they too sacred and too small to go after? I suppose it wouldn’t harm anyone to find out.

  On the other hand, it wouldn’t harm anyone to leave the videos up. They do a great job of polarising the debate and making the opposition look stupid, much like when Rez continuously gets hands-free orgasms off holocaust nostalgia.

• much like when Rez continuously gets hands-free orgasms off holocaust nostalgia.

  why are you always wrong, you stupid fuck? but now that you mention it, i have experienced a certain degree of pleasure thinking about kicking your face in. but the only way for it to be actually orgasmic would be doing it for real, you creepy piece of shit.

• [Unfunny impersonation of myself by Rez – Dan]

  And just as a note on the above…

  …it’s honesty knows no end.

  But at least a child’s life is saved, every time he sits down at his PC 😉

• I included rikijo, as more of a forming trend, over the last several months. This is a trend I really have reservations watching gain momentum.

  “Terrorism”…

  There have been developments in the U.S., since 9/11/01. The so called, “patriot act”…a document with authors so arrogant as to name it “patriotic”, even when it is attacking the very fabric of what it means to be an American.

  It is as unpatriotic, as one could ever imagine…and it also does something else, very disturbing…It gives new powers to be used against “terrorists”…and then vaguely defines what a “terrorist” is.

  Over here, we actually are seeing activity, where some lobby groups (and politicians) are trying to apply these “laws”, as weapons against MAAs.

  We have been starting to see a few of the more bold of them, using the term “terrorist”, in association with “pedophile” activity…including just having a web site.

  This is a new tactic.

  They are trying to say that just because types of men exist who would murder Jeffery Curley, and just because those men read something written by a boylover…that writing positively on such a topic is a “terrorist threat”…because allegedly, it threatens the life and well being of children and their families.

  Of course, this is ridiculous, and there is nothing that I, you or anyone can do to stop some deranged person from hurting another person…Whether our words are available online or elsewhere, will have no impact either way…Either the person is mentally sick, and would have done it anyway, or not.

  …but, it is still important to keep in mind, at least in the U.S. (hopefully, this does not start in your country), that there is a conscious effort to attach “terrorist” with “child love”.

  If we start acting in such a manner, that we outwardly facilitate real life acts of aggression towards other people…in this type of a political atmosphere, it can be treated as a real act of terrorism.

  If philip eide ever ended up being found shot to death (and don’t think that is so far fetched), and the perpetrator said he’d gotten the information from this blog…that would be extremely bad, for you and anyone associated with this blog.

  Case law does exist in the U.S., which may be able to be used here.

  It is hard to say whether or not “you” are untouchable by U.S. laws, as you should be out of it’s jurisdiction…but, there’s pleanty of political pressure and influence going around. The creeps in D.C. know how to make calls to the creeps in the U.K., etc, etc…

  I think back of a case with a fundamentalist christian, who was publishing on his web site the names, addresses, phone numbers, pictures, etc, of doctors and anybody working at abortion clinics…which laid bare, all the information needed, for anybody who wanted to do any manner of hostility.

  Several people ended up being murdered in cold blood…often at point blank with a gun, by some deranged lunatic who decreed that a mystical sky fairy gave him the “divine right”.

  Now, yes, that guy was a blatant scum bag…He knew what he was doing, but thought he could get away with it by just being a “provider of information”…and letting other people do as they will…with a wink and a nudge…and a “you know what I mean”, kind of look on his face.

  He was sued for…gee…I believe it was a couple million dollars…though, I’m unaware if he was ever held criminally liable.

  What is happening in some BL/GL circles, is getting a bit to close to this sort of behavior, for my tastes…and it is not just about tastes…

  It is about what accomplishments can be expected from it, and are they worth the risks?

  Nobody in their right mind is going to call up philip eide…and certainly, no organised group is going to do it.

  If they did, they’d be exposed and vulnerable…further, this can be called real life harassment and terrorism, if we are actively trying to intimidate that ass hole, and cause bad things to befall him.

  My concern is that, while what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander…the truth is, there is nothing fair about this arena we are forced to fight in. The rules are stacked, obscenely against us…and there are people itching for any excuse to come after us and seize what we have…throw us into a cage.

  We can not afford to fight at their low level. It just makes us easier to pick off, when we do.

  I know it is not always fashionable to take the higher road…and believe me, I don’t want to do it myself, on many days.

  But I really believe soundly, on this topic, we must be above that type of behavior. They must have absolutely nothing they can use against us.

  Doing this, is just playing into their hand.

  …and lest we forget, there are about a dozen NAMBLA people, who are being sued for some obscene amount of money, by people who want to financially devastate them (and probably the entire membership of NAMBLA, as well).

  To say that case is flimsy and a joke is a gross understatement…but you know what?…the system is corrupt…corrupt lawyers…corrupt judges…biasedly corrupt jury’s…

  The U.S. “justice” system is corrupt…and it let a blatant abuse of the court system (and attack on the first amendment) breeze right through one of it’s court rooms.

  Of course, it is still being fought out…how many years later?…

  Maybe things are a lot different over here, than they are where you live…I don’t know…

  I’ve been watching a lot of bad things happening, over here though.

  We need to cut out unnecessary risks…and anything that looks like a thinly veiled threat towards other people, is an unnecessary risk.

  I hope I’ve made clear where I stand on this.

• Although I see the tactic as sound, safe and fair, there are probably better ways of engaging it. For example, I shouldn’t really be associating my identity with expose type posts. And however many associates of this website support that posting, if one person really feels that uneasy, maybe we should be finding a separate home for publishing this kind of information (both here, and over at ANU). This idea has been run by me before.

  It must be understood, however, that the posting on this website was facilitated by what I still see as rather picky button pressing on a private forum that is usually outstandingly open. This kind of article does not have its natural home here, as the headers and ethos suggest.

  The terrorism idea, I feel you’re over-egging a bit. The only person I’ve heard using that is Marina H, and everyone knows that she’s a CJD sufferer 😉

• I don’t think posting the addresses of “antis”, for the purpose of outing them, will do any good. And I agree with some of the sentiments that this blog shouldn’t be our version of Perverted-Justice, especially if we can’t verify that Phil lives at that address.

  However, I also believe there IS a place in our “movement” (not for me, but in our movement) for the more militant among us.

  I would like to say to the antis who enjoy referring to us as “animals” and “monsters”, like it or not, no matter how docile the animal, if you poke and pester it long enough, it WILL turn and bite you.

  Perhaps it is time to start considering the more offensive activists among us as The Resistance, similar to the resistance fighters against the Nazis.

  And with every headless and burned corpse of a sex offender or pedophile that turns up in a suburban neighborhood; with every address posted on their little wiki site; with every TV Show, people like XVE and Chris Hanson probably should starting thinking about their personal safety.

  This is not a threat, this should not be interpreted as a threat, it is simply a logical assumption when we stop and consider reality.

  “live by the sword, die by the sword.”

  But always remember, the sword swings both ways.

• As Raven observed, political movements will always have a militant wing, alongside the intellectual and P.R. wings. This is particularly inevitable among minorities who are so viciously oppressed as CLs.

  I constantly observe instances of ‘the pedophile threat’ being used in the same breath as the ‘threat of terrorism’; and those such as Jim Gamble advocate the use of anti-terrorist tactics against CLs. It should come as no suprise that in such an environment of persecution, some CLs will desire to rise up and retaliate.

  Nevertheless, while such activites will certainly occur, should we give them a public face? Newgon’s strength will always lie in the calibre of its contributors – and I suggest that, above all, it is important for Newgon to entrench its intellectual foundations.

• Yes, I have been impressed with the intellect displayed thusfar.

  We’ve got some good ones yet to comment as well, including some who have not yet registered.

  Raza, for example is probably the most intelligent person I have ever met over the internet. The reason why we never hear from him is because of his similarly intelligent decision to lead a hedonistic lifestyle.

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