Testimony: Adult Female with Minor

• Revised Thinking About Former Sexual Experience by Porn-Dog in All About Sex, 1998.

  A 17-year-old writes about an incident in which his 16- or 17-year-old babysitter engaged him in sex games when he was seven or eight, including felating him. He was punished for it and grew up sexually repressed. He later came to the conclusion that the sex games were okay and his problem had been the way his parents reacted to it. He wrote, “I laugh at myself for calling someone doing me a favor like that ‘abuse.’”

• The Confessions of Victor X, circa 1910, Chapter 2: Enlightenment. See also publisher's ad for history of the book.

  A man in pre-revolution Russia looks back on his aristocratic and prudish upbringing and the twists and gambols he went through to learn about human sexuality. This had been left by his parents entirely up to him to research in the musty family library and with whatever friends, servants, or servant’s children knew enough and were willing to show him. At ten years old, Victor was molested by a young woman servant almost twice his age. The woman grabbed his hand and thrust it under her skirt while grabbing his penis with her other hand. The boy chastized her and thereafter avoided being alone with her. Far from being traumatized by the event, it played an important part in his budding awareness of sexuality. I believe this case shows, not only that a prepubescent boy of ten can be capable of resisting what he does not want, but also that when it is gently forced on him, he can be capable of processing the experience in his young mind and turning it to positive effect in his life.

• Part 6 of A Young Boy’s Awakening by “Girl Luvr” on alt.support.girl-lovers, February to March 2001 (In ASGL archives).

  A man in his sixties, looking back on his sexual adventures from age five to 19, recalls the time that two older girls held him down and fondled him. His initial reaction was to struggle, until he realized that it felt good and he then turned to convincing them to let him return the favor.

• Mary Kay LeTourneau -- [1] Interview (PDF, 250 kb) by Larry Elder, September 15, 2004 and Show Recap, [2] Ex-teacher pleads guilty to rape of boy who was 13 in Seattle Times, August 8, 1997

  At the age of 22, Vili Fualaau tells his story of love for his once sixth-grade school teacher and now mother of his two children, Mary Kay LeTourneau, six weeks after she finished serving seven years in prison for statutory rape: “Mary’s out now and we’re finally together. And we still have the same feelings for each other, times forever.” [1] At the age of 14, after she had given birth to their first baby, he said, “I want people to stop seeing me as a victim. My life is going to be fine. Mary didn’t harm me in any way.” [2]

• Letter from Bayardo in HFP Mailbag.

  A 14-year-old boy writes about his desire for women aged 35 and older.

• Catherine N.X.

  “Catherine N.X. is a 19 year old girl whose girllove relationship [with her mother] started at age 8 and continues happily to this day” [HFP main page]. She writes a column for the website, called Ask Cat!. For her view of her relationship, see her answers to the letter from Rainer. Catherine also has her own website, The Cat’s Meow.

• Post by “Gothic Trollita” in discussion of pedophilia is not okay in a forum on Gaia Online, June 30, 2007.

  A 13-year-old girl writes about having “a number of perfectly healthy sexual relationships with adults … [including a current] relationship with a sixteen year-old girl who I understand and who understands me on a level unparalleled by what I believe I could reach with anyone my age.”

• Interview: Heidi, in Paidika, 1991.

  A 24-year-old woman looks back on the fling she had with a teacher when she was 13. "By final exam time I couldn't concentrate at all. I was dreaming about her. I saw her everywhere; I couldn't think of anything else. During the math exam I took a compass and scratched the first letter of her name in my hand. It's still there, you can see it when it's cold. I was so in love with this woman! [...] One day when I had gone to the park again with her and her class, we started hugging and kissing. I think she started it but I didn't say no. I had kissed boys, but I was never in love with them. This was totally different. I was in love with her, so it felt much more intense, more exciting, because it was so secretive. [...] Looking back, I think I would have liked to have had sex with her. At that time it was not the most important thing for me. I don't know how much I knew about sex at the age of thirteen. I think I would have been afraid--afraid, that is, of not knowing how to do it or how to do it right. I had read about sex and heard about it on TV. But to actually do it? On the other hand, she was so gorgeous, it would have been wonderful if we could have been close, to feel her without her clothes. She meant everything to me. I really regret that we didn't do it.

• Anna in Martijn (PDF, 8 Mb), January 1981, page 18-19, in Dutch.

  A woman talks about her teenage love affair with a music teacher in her school. She courted the teacher innocently for about a year and they developed a close friendship. When the teacher was ill and the girl was comforting her at her home, the teacher initiated some kissing and sexual stroking. The girl enjoyed this and later took to intiating such activity herself, although she did find the teacher’s orgasms frightening. The relationship began to attract attention from others at school, which created presure to end it, which they did with some difficulty.

• Alex’s story in Rage of Consent by Heather Corinna in Soapbox Girls, July 2001.

  A young woman talks about the relationship she had with an adult woman as a teenager. “If more people of any age could have that kind of relationship we’d be better off.”

• "NotAMonster"

  A teenage pedophile has a good personal reason for not believing in the current dogma surrounding child sexuality. "When I was 10 I met a 21 year old girl who was a family friend of my cousins. Over a period of 2 months, we started to have a relationship. This went on until I was 13. She never forced me and I don't cry myself to sleep at night because of the memories that "monster" made me do. Never told my parents or anybody else about us because I knew she'd be arrested. Me being a girl lover may possibly be a result of being with her as a child, however it has not had a negative impact on my life. Not to mention we're still friends."

• Jane Rule

  "Certainly my own initiation came long before I was legally adult. Though a number of males around my age offered to participate, a woman ten years my senior was "responsible," at my invitation and encouragement. The only fault I find with that part of my sexual education was the limit her guilt and fear put on our pleasure, the heterosexual pressure even she felt required to put on me. What she did "for my own good" caused both of us pain. If I were to improve on that experience now, it would not be to protect children from adult seduction but to make adults easier to seduce, less burdened with fear or guilt, less defended by hypocrisy."

• Kirk Douglas

  An Oscar winning actor. "He also remembers getting deflowered in high school by his English teacher. "I had been a ragamuffin kid of 15 coping with a neighborhood filled with gangs ... under her guidance I became a different person ... I am eternally grateful. By today's standards she would have gone to jail. I had no idea we were doing something wrong. Did she?""

• "THE SEDUCTION OF PETER JAY RUDGE"

  F40 and M13. This story is very long, and known to us because of the legal persecution it faced. Part 2. "Peter wasn't sure about the natural part but became convinced of the enjoyable aspects, he said, when Diane stroked him again - ``three or four more times - while they were riding her BMW. ``She would touch my penis, outside my clothing and inside, he said. ``She would just kind of move it around. She would ask if it felt good. He and Diane were ``just friends at that point, Peter explained: ``It was fun to be around her. There were, like, no limits. With Mrs. Walden, he and his brothers ``could do whatever we wanted, Peter said, ``and Diane paid for everything. And when the two of them were alone, Mrs. Walden ``spoke to me like a grown-up, Peter recalled. ``She was glad we were such close friends."

• George Hamilton, a Hollywood Actor - interviewed on "The View".

  “When I was very young (12), I had a relationship with my stepmother (not kin … I’ve always liked older women)”. Asked for age of woman: “She was about 28 … 30” … “my father never knew” “it was very normal … she didn’t make me feel bad about it” Told that his experience was molestation: “I was molested? Damn, I’m down for it again”. It went on for a “short period of time” and when he was a professional actor, they met again. “it didn’t feel abnormal at the age of 12 … I cuddled” Informs us that he went further. “I don’t think that it warped me … in my life”

• Beth Kelly in O'Carroll.

  “But what about Beth Kelly, now mature in years, and a radical lesbian feminist, who, as a 'precocious' eight-year-old, developed a relation- ship with a grown woman? She writes:

'The first woman I ever loved sexually was my great-aunt; our feelings for each other were deep strong, and full. The fact that she was more than fifty years older than I did not affect the bond that grew between us. And, yes, I knew what I was doing - every step of the way - even though I had not, at the time, learned many of the words with which to speak of these things.

'Aunt Addie was a dynamic, intelligent, and creative woman - who refused, all her life, to be cowed by convention. In an extended family where women played out "traditional" housewifely roles to the hilt, she stood out, a beacon of independence and strength. She was a nurse in France during the First World War, had travelled, read books, and lived for over twenty years in a monogamous relationship with another woman. Her lover's death pre-dated the start of our sexual relationship by about two years But we had always been close and seen a great deal of each other. In the summers, which my mother, brother and I always spent at her seashore home, we were together daily. In other seasons, she would drive to visit us wherever we were living, and often stayed for a month or so at a time. .

'I adored her; that's all there was to it. I had never been taught at home that heterosexual acts or other body functions were dirty or forbidden, and I'd been isolated enough from other children to manage to miss a lot of the usual sexist socialisation learned in play. It never occurred to me that it might be considered "unnatural" or "antisocial" to kiss or touch or hold the person I loved, and I don't think that Addie was terribly concerned by such things either. I do know that I never felt pressured or forced by any sexual aspects of the love I felt for her. I think I can safely say, some twenty years later, that I was never exploited physically emotionally, or intellectually - in the least.' 8

As so often happens, this joyous liaison eventually foundered on the rocks of parental disapproval, when Beth's mother chanced upon her and Addie in bed together.”

• Lesbian Connection, Nov-Dec 1997.

  "I have always been open with my daughter about my lesbianism. While I would never try to manipulate her sexuality, I am very proud to be the lesbian mother of a lesbian daughter! At age nine she started having sex with other girls with my support and approval. My daughter looks femme, yet acts very butch and is completely secure in her sexuality. Her early experiences were with girls at school, in the neighborhood, on sports teams, etc. Actually, she had a lot of them. Then at age 12 she developed a crush on one of my friends. She told me about her feelings, and I replied directly and emphatically that I approved. Since that time she has mostly dated adult women. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are lots of lesbians who include teenage girls among the types of women they find appealing, sexually and otherwise. As teens, some lesbians had their own loving sexual encounters with adult women. It is hypocritical for them to now deny that same opportunity to contemporary teenage lesbians. To me the ones being controlling and manipulative are those who tell the teens they must not have sex with adult women. Now that is control! Rather than labelling them as "baby dykes" and dismissing them, we should encourage girls to come out and support them through mentoring relationships (and yes, even intimate relationships with adult lesbians when the feelings are mutual). My wife and I have dedicated ourselves to being good role models for these girls. We refuse to dismiss or minimize their sexuality, and we support their inherent right to express it, even with adult women. 'Monica', Oklahoma City, OK."

• Loving Boys, Volume One:

  "'My first serious relationship was with a much older woman. She was twenty-six and I was thirteen, but she thought I was fifteen. It was in the summer in New Hampshire. She was an artist, and she really loved me. We were very serious. I loved her a great deal too. I couldn't believe anything so big could happen to me.' The boy's father discovered, however, what had happened, and put an end to the summer romance. 'I never, ever saw her again, never talked to her again. I still think about her once in a while.'" (p. 62)

• Karen Ellis (37) with student Ben Dunbar (15), as recounted by Steven Angelides:

  "'In the way that it happened, you could say I was a predator', asserted Dunbar confidently to a defiant Liz Hayes in a Sixty Minutes interview two years after the offences (2005). 'I mean, I went after her … I took my chances. And I just went for it.' But Hayes would not have a bar of any inversion of the standard 'adult-perpetrator'/'child-victim' formula. 'But you know that's impossible', Hayes responded, 'You can never be the predator. You know that, don't you?' Despite the arrogant and didactic tone, Hayes's rhetorical question highlights how a narrative of inevitable child sexual abuse often functions to determine the normative boundaries of adolescent subjectivity at the same time as erasing the experiences of actual adolescents themselves. Dunbar was at pains to stress the misfit between the legal categories subsuming him (child, victim) and his experience: 'Well, apparently I'm the victim. You know that's …' But before he could even finish, Hayes cut him off. 'But you are. Not “apparently”. You are.' Still emphasising a distinction ignored by Hayes between legal definition and what it seeks to 'capture', Dunbar replied, 'By the law, yeah, yep.' Sixty Minutes then provided him with a rare moment to articulate his position, albeit in an aggressively infantilising context, and one reflecting his experience at the hands of the law. 'You don't see yourself as a victim?' inquired Hayes cynically. 'Definitely not, no', he said with conviction. In his letter to the court in support of Ellis, Dunbar had pre-empted the question of potential harm and victim status: 'The only way this will affect me is if she was to go to prison or was harshly sentenced. I would feel guilty because I know that she is a good person … At all times I knew what I was doing and wanted to do it'."

• Film director Ingmar Bergman in his autobiography, Mein Leben (pp. 12-13, cited in Paidika 11, pp. 19-20)

  "One evening I was to be bathed. The housemaid filled the bathtub and poured something in that smelled good. Alla Pitreus [widowed acquaintance of parents] knocked on the door and asked if I had fallen asleep. When I did not answer, she entered. She was wearing a green bathrobe, which she immediately took off. She explained that she wanted to scrub my back. I turned around and she also stepped into the bath, soaped me, brushed me with a hard brush, and rinsed me with her soft hands. Then she took my hand, drew it to her, and put it between her thighs. My heart was beating in my throat. She spread my fingers and pressed them deeper into her lap. With her other hand she clasped my sex, startled and wide awake. She cautiously drew back the foreskin and carefully removed a white material that had collected around the glans. Everything was pleasant and also did not frighten me in the least. She held me firmly between her strong, soft thighs, and without resistance and without fear I let myself sway in a strong, almost painful, pleasure. I was eight or perhaps nine years old."