Debate Guide: Legal pragmatism: Difference between revisions

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Here, so-called "legal pragmatism" refers to a series of legal and technical arguments for keeping the age of consent.
[[File:Balancescale.jpg|thumb|To compare present Age of Consent laws to hypothetical alternatives, we are essentially justifying the relative importance of various subjective claims, and then deciding what (if any) alternative might be feasible, ethical, evidence-based or cost-effective.]]
Here, so-called "legal pragmatism" refers to an argument that concedes the possibility of consensual crime and unjust convictions, but remains in favor of maintaining [[Age of Consent]] laws above 16 or 18.


<blockquote><font color="green">'''''The AoC provides a firm line where one is needed; the public needs to know where they are. This also goes for the courts, since objective, simple legislation is technically superior to subjective interpretations. A few unfair convictions is no loss, when this law allows us to get the bad'uns.'''''</font></blockquote>
<blockquote><font color="green">'''''A legal age provides a <u>fine line in the sand</u>, where society needs it. In court, objective, simple legislation cuts out the need for subjective interpretations, which can be easily manipulated by defense lawyers. A few unsafe, or unfair convictions are no loss, when it allows us to show <u>zero tolerance to the predators</u>.'''''</font></blockquote>


A number of issues come to mind, all having a bearing on the viability of this argument:
In trying to draw a line in the sand, we bury our head in it. A number of issues come to mind, all having a bearing on the viability of this argument:


*How '''common''' are these "bad" experiences really? [[Research]] may help us here, and would appear to suggest that the proponent's "exceptions to the rule" he is willing to sacrifice for the greater good (we assume he means female teachers who are caught with teenage boys) are deemed the only permissible "exceptions" because of his personal prejudices.
*How '''common''' are predatory relationships, really? [[Research]] may help us here, and would tend to suggest that we need a far more sensitive legal tool for separating abuse of minors from voluntary relations. Arguments such as the proponent's tend to be based on lazy, chauvinistic, moralistic generational assumptions about "consensual crime", such as believing male-student relationships with female teachers are invariably the "only exceptions to the rule". Ultimately, lived experience is subjective, and thus objective legal criteria such as age and presumed authority can only be used to judge lived experiences ''inefficiently'' when compared to subjective criteria.
*What '''meta-ethical''' system are we using? [[Debate Guide: If we could only save one child|Negative utilitarianism]] would appear to provide support for this argument, although it is not explicitly utilitarian.
*What ethical system are we using? [[Debate Guide: If we could only save one child|Negative utilitarianism]] (prioritizing the reduction of harms/suffering) is usually applied in defense of consent laws. Yet the same ethical system may well contradict our proponent's argument, as he is causing considerable suffering for what he believes to be a "greater good" of harm-reduction. Under a negative utilitarian model, do the collateral [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria|harms caused]] by a broad-sweeping and punitive legal scheme have adequate offsets in that suffering among abuse victims is reduced, above and beyond laws that entertain the possibility of consensual relations?
*What '''time scale''' are we talking of? "Legal-pragmatic" arguments might have some merit in times of [[Research: Sexual repression|sexual repression]] when experiences are likely to be looked upon with guilt. To avoid establishing a [[Self-fulfilling prophecy|causal loop]], however, we would also have to pursue reform of attitudes so that guilt can be reduced, laws changed and personal choice embraced.
:*Further, are we not bringing about unseen harms, by establishing a [[Self-fulfilling prophecy|causal loop]] in which puritanical attitudes bring about the same results puritanical laws seek to avoid? [[Research]] appears to suggest that self-perception, shame and stigma are very strongly associated with psychological harms.
*Can we '''afford''' to [[Special Article: Adverse effects of hysteria|harm]] individuals who have been caught by arbitrary laws that do not take into account the positive nature of their relationships?
 
*In light of the variable nature of adult-minor (and indeed any human) sexual relationships, is an '''objective test''' in fact the most efficient in court? Can abuse (regardless of age) be identified ''more efficiently'' with a subjective test that takes into account lived experience?
==See also==
 
*[[Debate Guide: Problems with the Age of Consent]]


[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Sociological]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]
[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Sociological]][[Category:Debating Points: Adult-Minor sex]]

Latest revision as of 20:40, 25 August 2024

To compare present Age of Consent laws to hypothetical alternatives, we are essentially justifying the relative importance of various subjective claims, and then deciding what (if any) alternative might be feasible, ethical, evidence-based or cost-effective.

Here, so-called "legal pragmatism" refers to an argument that concedes the possibility of consensual crime and unjust convictions, but remains in favor of maintaining Age of Consent laws above 16 or 18.

A legal age provides a fine line in the sand, where society needs it. In court, objective, simple legislation cuts out the need for subjective interpretations, which can be easily manipulated by defense lawyers. A few unsafe, or unfair convictions are no loss, when it allows us to show zero tolerance to the predators.

In trying to draw a line in the sand, we bury our head in it. A number of issues come to mind, all having a bearing on the viability of this argument:

  • How common are predatory relationships, really? Research may help us here, and would tend to suggest that we need a far more sensitive legal tool for separating abuse of minors from voluntary relations. Arguments such as the proponent's tend to be based on lazy, chauvinistic, moralistic generational assumptions about "consensual crime", such as believing male-student relationships with female teachers are invariably the "only exceptions to the rule". Ultimately, lived experience is subjective, and thus objective legal criteria such as age and presumed authority can only be used to judge lived experiences inefficiently when compared to subjective criteria.
  • What ethical system are we using? Negative utilitarianism (prioritizing the reduction of harms/suffering) is usually applied in defense of consent laws. Yet the same ethical system may well contradict our proponent's argument, as he is causing considerable suffering for what he believes to be a "greater good" of harm-reduction. Under a negative utilitarian model, do the collateral harms caused by a broad-sweeping and punitive legal scheme have adequate offsets in that suffering among abuse victims is reduced, above and beyond laws that entertain the possibility of consensual relations?
  • Further, are we not bringing about unseen harms, by establishing a causal loop in which puritanical attitudes bring about the same results puritanical laws seek to avoid? Research appears to suggest that self-perception, shame and stigma are very strongly associated with psychological harms.

See also