Special Article: List of Pedologues summaries
Pedologues was a podcast for MAPs running from Sep 2005-Sep 2006.
Here, we summarize the episodes with timestamps linking to the audio file of the relevant episode on FreeSpeechTube.
Pedologues is not affiliated with Newgon, nor FreeSpeechTube. The former predated the latter two, and the original participants have not been active in the archiving of this project.
Pedologues Episode 1 (10 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas summary
Domain name set-up problems
Locating service providers prepared to allow an individual’s right to freedom of speech online. Contrasting responses from Libsyn.Org and DomainsByProxy.Com. Barriers to maintaining anonymity legally whilst managing a domain. (01:30 to 10:39)
Pedologue rationale
Who we are: Rookiee, Abraxas. Why we are here: help put the truth out, defend childlove, and support childlovers, especially young childlovers, and stigmatised youth. Law enforcement once told Abraxus that “we” never want you people to ever be given the opportunity to try and tell others about yourselves in a positive light. (10:40 to 13:29)
Perceptions of childlove
Society’s view versus childlove community’s view. Who is right? Love is always right. However, US cultural ideals tell us certain types of love are wrong. This is a distortion of the truth. This distortion is applied, for example, as punishment on any child exhibiting an “unhealthy” interest in their own taboo body parts or those of others. “Educators” go out of their way to ignore discussing these taboo body parts with the child. (13:30 to 23:19)
Sex education
What age do you teach a child about sex? Rookiee relates story about his over-protective mother, and the difficulty she had had in discussing the topic once he began to ask leading questions. Many children are kept in ignorance because the “educators” are too embarrassed to educate. In these situations, children seek information from alternative sources, ones they can trust. (23:20 to 27:59)
Self-loathing
Negative historic child abuse experience and/or paedophilic self-loathing shaping negative adult opinions toward intergenerational relationships. This dynamic occurred also within the homosexual community at a time when adult same-sex intimacy was illegal. (28:00 to 32:29)
Profit from discrimination
Increasingly, child abuse stories sell well, so anti-paedophile propaganda is a good business model for the media. Profit at the expense of a sexual minority group by highlighting the worst child abuse cases and repeatedly tell their readers that all paedophiles are capable of such crimes. When the media repeats a lie often enough, the falsehood becomes the truth and a stereotype is born. The stereotype is not easily dismantled even when contrary evidence is made available sufficient for them to experience cognitive dissonance. (32:30 to 40:59)
Grooming versus teaching
Parents mould their offspring into a shape that easily fits into society. The process of moulding is considered by society to be teaching the child. If the child responds well to this teaching, they can be rewarded say with a gift if their expectations are fulfilled. Society however, takes a very different view of communication between a paedophile and a child. Society interprets such communication as grooming, and if proven by law enforcement, the paedophile can be registered as a sex offender. (41:00 to 47:59)
Cotton wool kids
Face to face communication steadily being replaced by online communication. It is becoming harder to really get to know people. The younger generation is increasingly identifying with celebrities who they have never met in real life to such an extent they can be considered to be surrogate friends. In reality, the fans have fallen in love with the celebrity’s ego. (48:00 to 50:29)
Pedologues Episode 2 (17 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas summary
Response to episode 1
Sixty listeners. Improvements to broadcast quality. (01:30 to 04:39)
Suggested topics for discussion
Sex offender registries, child pornography, literature, urban dictionary. (04:50 to 06:09)
Homosexual versus paedophile
Urban dictionary definition of “paedophile” and “homosexual”. “Homosexual: a person whose sexual preference is members of the same sex. Homosexuality is not a perversion or a disease, but merely an aspect of sexuality that has been around for thousands of years.” “Paedophile: a person who suffers from paedophilia, that is, an adult who is sexually attracted to children. Paedophilia is a mental disorder, not a sexual orientation or lifestyle choice. Specifically it is a paraphilia. The paraphilias are characterised by a recurrence of sexual urges, fantasies or behaviours that involve unusual objects, activities or situations. Terms like paedosexuals are misnomers and nothing more than political activism on the part of organised groups of paedophiles attempting to legitimise or legalise their abuse and predation of children.” (06:10 to 11:49)
Recommended literature
For MAPs who seek accurate information on the topic of boy love, girl love and youth sexuality: Tom o’Carroll: Paedophilia The Radical Case. Dr Edward Brongersma: Loving Boys Vols I and II. Anything by Theo Sandfort. Dr Judith Levine: Harmful to Minors. Rod Downey: The Moralist. (11:50 to 13:39)
Sex offender registries
They do not work. Registries are available for all to see online via websites such as “pedo-watch”, detailing sex offender photos, addresses, phone numbers plus other personal information. Apart from being fear generators, they function as hit lists for vigilantes to mete out rough justice without having to worry about law enforcement intervention. This is the closest the US has come to installing Nazi death camps, apart from setting up internment camps for Japanese prisoners of war. On-line offender registries for other crimes do not exist. (13:40 to 20:19)
Sex offender discrimination
Negative impact on the sex offender: barred from applying for housing as association is liable if any problems arose, employment terminated when hire found to be an offender, employment refused if job entails contact with children, keep beyond radius of 2000 feet around schools so large areas in towns become forbidden zones, notify authorities when car changed or address changed, law enforcement can search house without warrant at any time so no right to privacy and no fourth amendment, lose right not to incriminate yourself and thus the fifth amendment, offenders are forced to coalesce into colonies. Offenders continue to be punished long after they have paid their debt to society. Hypocrisy of law enforcement agencies encouraging sex offenders to succeed upon release whilst simultaneously removing all practical means to do so. (20:20 to 29:49)
Poll
Who would you prefer to socialise with a paedophile or a member of al-Qaeda? (29:50 to 31:29)
Boy celebrities
Zack and Cody, Paul Butcher. With the sound turned down, easier to concentrate on your masturbation fantasies and techniques. (31:30 to 33:29)
Pornography definitions
Has to be distributed, has to be commercial and has to be lacking in artistic merit. But, what constitutes artistic merit? (33:30 to 35:04)
Child pornography
Difficult to eradicate, and, from a MAP’s perspective, such material will always exist so long as the face of the child can be seen. One should draw a distinction between child pornography and child erotica, the former is harmful in some way, whereas the latter has the ability to arouse. Pornography is neither the portrayal of the naked human form nor the portrayal of the natural loving human sexual act. Conflict in some US states between child pornography law and age of consent law: legal to have sex with a 16 year-old girl but a nude photo of her is child pornography. Instance of a 13 year-old boy being arrested for distributing child pornography, specifically photos of his naked self online. A naked child is now judged as obscene; in reality, a child’s body is beautiful and charming. Hypocritically, historic artefacts on display in public places, such as Michaelangelo’s David, are exempt from child pornography laws as they are deemed to be culturally significant. (35:05 to 44:54)
Peace versus aggression
Carl Sagan’s book Cosmos, final chapter: in studying anthropology, scientists conclude that peaceful humane societies allow open and free expression of nudity and sexuality across all ages, whereas aggressive societies make sex and nudity shameful, discriminate against sexual minorities, prohibit sexual expression among children, and thus become detached from humanity. (44:55 to 49:19)
Pedologues as activism
We are two individuals communicating the range of ideas raised on MAP boards in the hope that we can ultimately change societal attitudes towards MAPs. There are a lot of different perspectives within our community, and having this podcast we hope to open up discussion on these perspectives to a wider audience. Although the MAP boards are beneficial to those who participate, they are limited in what they can achieve simply because too many people hide among them, like frogs in a pond. By leaping out of the pond and engaging in activism there is of course increased risk, but there is no other way to change society. If more frogs left the pond to do more podcasts, then more voices would be heard and there would be a greater chance of bringing about change. (49:20 to 55:40)
Pedologues Episode 3 (24 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas summary
Failing education. HBO ‘parenting special’ focusing on the daily issues a US child has from the child’s perspective, in junior high school at age 12, and then two years later the same child at 14. It was apparent that at 12 years old, some of those kids would not be able to consent because they lacked sufficient communication skills, and hadn’t even figured themselves out, or the world around them, at that point. Failing education stunts a child’s development, for example: inadequate sex education. Useful to conduct similar HBO exercise say in Norway, or even say between US city kids and US rural kids, for comparison. (03:46 to 09:09; 12:30 to 14:49)
Keep children innocent. Societal mantra: children are innocent and must continue to be so. Innocence is a puritanical moralising term bearing no relevance to reality. Substitute “ignorance” for “innocence”. Due to these restrictions, the older child has to overturn/relearn cultural values into adulthood as reality becomes apparent. Freud: children have innate sexuality. (09:10 to 12:29)
Childhood sexual freedom. 1978 Danish movie ‘You Are Not Alone’. Film features a developing love affair between a post-pubescent boy and a pre-pubescent boy, in a supportive community. Denmark is a more open socialist country. By not imposing moral strictures on them, children are allowed to freely experiment and taste freedom. Film touches upon tensions between moralising Christians and liberty-promoting socialists. A noticeable thing about the film was the absence of any reprimand directed at the two boys. Often, US films with a similar theme depict an authoritarian figure entering the scene who then breaks up the relationship. Sex education is a taboo subject in the US and much avoided by adults who have responsibility for children. (14:50 to 20:59)
Conflict of conscience. Try to learn to think about the bigger picture to understand what lies behind other people’s viewpoints, even if they are hate-filled. Attempt to learn from life experiences. Inner conflicts often arise from the way a person is raised. (21:00 to 24:39)
Telling others. Rookiee has real hard time discussing his inner thoughts and experiences without risking incrimination (he breaks down at this point for five minutes, and continues to be pretty upset for the rest of the podcast). The conundrum of dating and fearing a date’s reaction to learning about his primary sexuality, having to hide the truth about himself from the world, like Jews in wartime Germany. His mother discovering lewd drawings, and confronting him at the dinner table: ‘How could you be so deviant?’ All he can do is hope the world will change. (24:40 to 31:09)
MAPs denounce MAPs. MAPs that do a disservice to their community. One guy handing out bubblegum in public to kids, instilling fear in communities. Self-loathing MAPS willing to denounce other MAPs for viewing illegal material. (31:10 to 33:14)
Historical discrimination. Just occasional glimmers of hope through friends and family who one comes out to. Response from a 19 year-old friend Rookiee opened up to was: don’t let the topic consume you or make you depressed. Friendship was a long-standing one, and Rookiee had, during that time, taught the boy a trade which in turn led to a computing career. But still people would say, well I hope to God you didn’t touch the boy whilst he was young. Parallel with black people in the 1960’s through no fault of their own happened to be born a different colour, and yet they were stigmatised and discriminated against. A further parallel: gays. Fortunately, it is now politically incorrect for bigots to discriminate against blacks and gays, but that recognition came about through hard-fought activism. (33:15 to 38:09)
Gays betray MAPs. The Gay agenda pushing MAPs aside as outcasts, whilst conveniently forgetting the historic union of the two dating back to ancient times when the concept of democracy was established. Abraxus thanks Rookiee for opening up and for his honesty about his internal conflicts, adding that many people within the MAP community face similar dilemmas. Rookiee goes into further detail about his young friend and voices regret over not looking out for him more whilst the boy was suffering physical and mental abuse from his father, also Rookiee’s work colleague. (38:10 to 43:14)
Ignorance and prejudice. The problem of holding honest conversations with people; risking being made to feel bad about yourself once that person responds. Risking creating a bad impression. Having to lie about yourself to protect yourself. What is deviance? Society being spoon-fed the lies, reinforcing their own ignorance and prejudices. (43:15 to 48:49)
MAP community diversity. (48:50 to 53:20)
Pedologues Episode 4 (10 October 2005) Rookiee and Rebellee summary
Boylover.net moderation. Rebellee is the entertainments officer of boylover.net and has been there since the beginning. Discussion about his role as a boylover.net moderator and the difficulty in keeping the peace, and having to resign because he no longer enjoyed the role. (01:35 to 11:24)
Story of Rebellee. He talked about the significance of the name Rebellee, and he told the story of meeting a 10 year-old boy at a racquet-ball club sitting on the steps. He asked the boy if he intended to go in to play, and the boy said I can’t, I am on my own so they won’t let me in. Rebellee told the boy I have no-one with me – come in with me. The pair spent two hours together in the club playing sport. Rebellee visited the club the following day, and guess who was sitting on the steps again: the same boy. Rebellee asked the boy what his name was. Rebel Lee said the boy. He was a boy who lived with older parents who were obviously not that interested in him; he had anger issues and obviously needed an adult in his life to look up to. Over the following years, Rebellee fulfilled that role for the boy. (11:25 to 14:39)
Being a boylover. What does it mean? Rebellee: boys are the greatest creatures on this earth and I would do anything to help a boy. A boy lover is not a child molester, the former has a boy’s best interests at heart whereas the latter is someone looking for a quick fix to satisfy his physical needs. (14:40 to 15:49)
Choosing one’s sexuality. Society’s view of paedophiles. Society believes that an adult can choose his or her sexuality; they fail to comprehend that a child lover is given no choice in the matter. We are what we are, and we have to live with that. Rebellee knew instinctively from age 11, that he liked boys. Society is ignorant if they believe that child lovers have mental issues due to an underlying sickness. Most intelligent people realise that paedophilia exists, but they just don’t want it considered acceptable. (15:50 to 18:19)
Paedophobia. Misuse of the word paedophile. Parents are terrified their boy will turn out homosexual, and the thought of their boy being around a boylover petrifies them because such a friendship will make their boy gay. If parents became aware that their innocent 8, 9, 10 year-old was playing with himself at night in bed while fantasising about another boy, they would be horrified and unable to accept it. It is ironic that we are intelligent enough to fly to the moon and back, and yet unable to accept what we are. The only game in town involves just heterosexuality and male and female. (18:20 to 21:49)
Celebrity boys you were into when you yourself were a boy. (21:50 to 41:14)
Normalising paedophilia. Will paedophilia ever be normalised and accepted? Rebellee: it has a long way to go. Only progress possible when stigmatisation of being gay stops once and for all, and homosexuality is treated as valid as heterosexuality. Such a shift has to start in the school environment, and right now there is no shift.(41:15 to 43:30)
Rebellee’s boylove genesis. Rebellee: First sexual experience was during a sleepover at age 11 with a same-age friend who initiated play after asking if he could do so. The only thought from that point on was of boys. There was a further incident at age 7 or 8, when sharing a room with another boy; both had showered and were dressed in bath robes, but the other boy approached him and undid the robe chord and stared at his naked body. Rebellee was furious and spurned his advances. Rebellee did not realise boys aged around 10 was the primary attraction until he was 15 years old. Girls were never in the picture. He had zero sex education as a child, and had no clue that boys played sexually with other boys. If parents found out what was going on between the two 11 year-old boys, they would call it “nasty”. (46:00 to 50:44)
Childhood guilt. Guilt about having sexual thoughts. Rebellee went to a Catholic school where he had to attend confession. He answered affirmative to the question posed by the priest on the topic of impure thoughts, and answered negative to the question of touching himself. By 10 years-old Rebellee was finished with the Catholic church anyway. Rookiee: An over-protective mother restricted him. Only when the mother discussed sex with her son, did self-experimentation begin, and always within the privacy of his bedroom. At age 7 or 8 within the school urinal, several boys invited him to come and perform synchronised peeing. His thought was this was the naughtiest thing ever, so he shied away. In retrospect, so many chances to do naughty things, but insufficient daring to follow through. Another experience at age 9 or 10, was a rare sleepover when two brothers in the house he stayed at, got undressed for bed and Rookie just stood there gawping as they stripped down to their tighty-whities. The older brother asked him to leave for his own room, and as he left, he felt really weird. He was so unfamiliar with human anatomy that the boy nakedness in front of him was a revelation. (50:45 to 01:02:46)
Discovering porn. Rookiee: When 11, accessed adult straight porn on his father’s computer by running a Norton utility to undelete files that had been deleted by his father, and placed the jpeg files on a disk to view on his own computer via a jpeg viewer. He managed to accumulate quite the porn collection in this way. When a friend came round, Rookiee showed off his computer, and the friend immediately asked whether he had some porn, to which the response was a flat “No!”. Rookiee looks back on that event as a missed opportunity simply because he was scared and so out of touch socially. Rebellee: His step-father had a porn collection, but these were photographs kept in a locked draw. He figured out the porn could be reached by opening the drawer below. He was happy to share the porn with friends when they came around. (01:02:47 to 01:05:44)
Molestation versus boylove. Rebellee: there were instances when men wanted to come onto me when I was a boy, but because they made physical advances, didn’t talk to me, and didn’t give me a choice, that scared me so I left the scene every time. I often wondered what might have happened is a man took me under his wing. These instances really made me afraid of men, and I really had no attraction towards men nor individuals older than myself. (01:05:45 to 01:18:14)
Age of consent. Rookiee: Sex education should be sufficiently thorough to educate a boy from a young age. That will then give him sufficient knowledge to decide from that whether to wants to experiment sexually with another person. Society should be sufficiently humane to allow him to experiment from that young age with whomever he wants. Rebellee: you should let mother nature decide when the time is right to experiment sexually, and that would be when the boy is able to ejaculate. This is essentially a compromise between what a boy might desire at an even younger age, and what society feels is appropriate. (01:18:15 to 01:23:46)
Pedologues Episode 5 (16 October 2005) Rookiee, Jeffrey Gold (SQIR) and Jessie summary
Categorising antis. Three types of people against us. Those who have been hurt in the past from some traumatic experience. Those who don’t understand us and just follow the status quo. Those who outwardly preach right-wing conformity. Difficult to combat these three types in one go as each opposes us in different ways. Jeffrey: Those hurt in the past suddenly appear when they realise they can make a lot of money by suing a third party for that past hurt. In parallel the media love child abuse stories, and politicians get more votes from an increasingly fearful society for invoking more stringent laws. (04:25 to 11:06)
Consent law validity. Rookiee: First few pedologues had blunt content. Perhaps we would make more progress if we were to address public concerns rather than debunk them, particularly on the topic of adults taking advantage of children. Age of consent law may be the best way to do this, for example Dutch law where a 12/16 bar with caveats was established until 2002. However, it was then raised to 16 thereafter. The US secretary of state Rice recently pressured Russia into raising the age of consent from 14 to 16. (11:07 to 14:04)
Over-protected child. Jeffrey: A 13 year-old boy he saw with his mother, followed her around like a lost puppy dog, and he thought ... nope, not ready. Firstly, over-protection means that at age 18, a boy is more likely to have insufficient skills to cope with real-world reality and adult responsibilities. Secondly, overprotection and pampering instils a sense of entitlement in mid-teens, which again is likely to cause the boy problems later on. Third, by not encouraging a child to discover things by himself, one removes the opportunity to experience a sense of achievement. A whole generation is being raised by adult rules and restrictions thereby stunting mental development. Educational authorities need to delay exit exams for up to 20% of US students to enable them to obtain their diplomas. Older generations validate these changes, by relating many under-protection experiences when they were kids. By raising the age of consent, governments only exacerbate the root problem. Wealthy people in cities are more tolerant of homosexuality than poor people in rural communities; the former are better informed. (14:05 to 26:19)
Creationism versus evolution. Religion and faith are all very well, but when you add humans to it you get chaos. Christianity is all about power and control. There are many different types of Christians, but mostly they preach bullshit to children about creationism and ignore evolution, that is to say: subservience trumps natural order. (26:20 to 38:09)
Single-parent families. The non-existent two-parent family. Children need knowledgeable and accepting others around them – people they can respect. Increasingly, single-parent families are the norm with endless temporary partners who have no wish to associate with or care for the child. (38:10 to 38:54)
Boylover's raison d'être. Misconception of the antis that all we want is bed the minor. In reality most boylovers first and foremost want to care and look out for the boy. (38:55 to 44:03)
Jessie’s abuse story. Jessie: Yes, abused between the ages of 4 and 13, and over time, multiple people forcing themselves upon me, especially when in foster care. I do not blame them for it even though I did not like it, but I could have done nothing to stop it - if I raised it with the police or councillors at the time, it would have led to even more problems for me, for example: shrinks coming to visit me and “fix” me. Those who force themselves on others are predators, not boylovers, and only out to get sexual gratification. The good folk are the boylovers who only want to help them learn and figure things out as they grow, and to generally support them. That is why I support them. (44:04 to 50:59)
Boylove, paedosexuality, paederasty. Three different terms that people muddle together. Paedosexuality is the sexual attraction towards a minor. Boylove is a moral ideal that paedosexuals attempt to achieve to set some sort of moral standard regarding their sexual attraction. Paederasty is the act of having a sexual relationship with a minor. Paederasty in ancient Greek times was more the definition of boylover, focusing on mentorship as a protégé. A high sense of morality was placed on the relationship, implying it was sanctioned by society. (51:00 to 57:04)
Explaining boylove to straights. Jeffrey: You know how you love women, and it is not always sexual, sure you want to get some, what guy doesn’t, but it’s not always that, occasionally it is the love you have for her as a person, and the respect she shows towards you. Also the value you place in mutual communication and sharing life experiences. Imagine if tomorrow, the government made the love you have for each other, illegal. Further, they also made it illegal for you to walk down a street and say hello to a woman you were attracted to, because the woman would be at risk from grooming. Jeffrey has come out to all his work colleagues and it transpires they support him. (57:05 to 59:47)
Enlightening the masses. Better world for all of us if somehow people could become more enlightened than they currently are. Rookieee: We are facing the stigma of homosexuality, plus the stigma of intergenerational relationships. The more hysteria gets heaped on these stigmas, the more problems society creates for itself. This is a vicious circle. If boylovers had unfettered access to boys, there would still be child rapes and child murders, but the boylovers will have had say, one hundred boys they will have nurtured, taught and treated as a little brother; very few of these will have also been sexual relationships. We are at the stage where children may as well walk around in public spaces with full-cover hijabs so adults cannot see any part of them. (59:48 to 01:05:00)
Pedologues Episode 6 (30 October 2005) Rookiee, Renée, Aqua, and George summary
Pedologues intro-outro music. Rookiee concerned Lennon’s acoustic guitar music may attract litigation from Oko Yono, and asked listeners to propose alternative theme music. (02:10 to 04:40)
Introductions, listener feedback.First email from a straight 16yo: “You are not just preaching to the choir. Initial reaction was ‘What The Hell ...’, however, I was intrigued enough to listen to one of your podcasts. Although I don’t agree 100% with your views, there is hope enough to educate people. I realise you are no more evil than gays, and so not evil at all. You honestly want to love like your heart tells you to. I sincerely hope that one day, people will be able to love whom they wish.” Second email from 18yo male: “When I first listened to Pedologues, it confused me that you should use the term paedophile to describe yourselves. On looking up this term in the AOL dictionary supplied to me free at college, it says ‘An adult who is sexually attracted to children, a child molester. Re paedophilia ‘A sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.’”. George: stereotypical discrimination. (04:40 to 14:34)
AAMs. The 18yo correspondent goes on to say that his AOA is 12 to 18, but cannot understand how a child could ever be sexually attracted to an adult. Renée recalls the 36yo adult friend she had a consensual loving relationship with at age 11. He was a customer at the coffee shop where she worked that she got closer and closer to. Her mother did not object to their initially non-sexual relationship. Aqua who is 12yo and gay, is attracted to age range 12yo to 30yo. Rookiee at age 10, found boys of same age attractive, but as he grew older, the age of attraction remained constant. As a 12yo, being attracted to 10yo boys is called homosexuality, but as you grow older, it is called paedophilia, even though it is still homosexuality. (14:35 to 19:39)
AOA versus sexual attraction. The public focus less on age, more on how wrong paedophilic attraction is, stereotypically: 'How could anyone possibly be sexually attracted to a youngster in the first place?' The ensuing hysteria results in individual profiling to obtain a classification of mental illness. It is not considered too big a problem for a 12yo to be sexually attracted to another 12yo. However, as soon as that age gap widens, the small problem gets inflated to humungous proportions. (19:40 to 21:27)
Gay youth. Pro-gay talk-show host Bill Handel on KFI AM 640, talks about gay youth and how they are coming out at an earlier age and discussing their gay realisation. First clip: Handel noted that social conservatives, who are anti-gay anyway, are very concerned about gay adolescents being given an opportunity to come out publicly. Second clip: during the 1960s, gay men recalled desiring other males at age 14 whilst gay women recalled desiring other women at age 17. By the 1990s the age had dropped to 10 for boys, and 12 for girls. Handel adds that youngsters shouldn’t endure the same loneliness and longing that gay people had to endure in the past. Handel recalled his first sexual experience at age 12 with an older woman of around 20. He also commended the Netherlands for having a comprehensive and progressive age of consent policy for Dutch youth. (21:28 to 26:14)
Kidnap, Rape, Torture. However, as soon as Handel talks about paedophiles, the tone changes, and the crimes of kidnap, rape and torture emerge and they become synonymous with the concept of paedophilia. Handel plays a clip of Oprah Winfrey offering a $100,000 reward to anyone denouncing such people to the FBI. Rookiee: people are blurring the line between people who want to hurt others, and people who are biologically and naturally attracted to others. It may be that such people had their natural attraction suppressed to such a degree, they took a wrong turn and made inappropriate decisions. Renée’s story: At age 14, she was a victim of violent rape. She was teaching English to a 50 year old student, and he imprisoned her for more than 24 hours, the period of time the authorities let lapse before taking action. Once she had been found, released, and taken to safety, her doctors said that in a further two hours, she would have bled to death. The rapist is still roaming the streets. (26:15 to 31:59)
Grooming families. Handel talks about single men worming their way into family homes, all the while being friendly but at the same time, harbouring ulterior motives. Rookiee discusses the point Kinsey made about individuals who have been sexuality suppressed. Such people tend to become obsessed with specific objects of desire. (32:00 to 35:14)
Intergenerational gay friendship. If kids know they are gay at 10 or 12 years old, and they enter into a reciprocal friendship with an older friend, what makes it wrong for those two people to enjoy this relationship? George: if you both know in your heart it is right and you want to celebrate that friendship together, then that is a matter solely for the two of you. It is not up to society to prevent such a friendship. Rookiee: Is it society’s censorship of finding children sexual that outlaws such relationships, or is it society preventing a couple from deciding themselves? The panel: both. George: society’s usual response to the child ... wait until you are a little older, then you will know. Society’s response to the adult... if you do that, you will be charged with molestation, child pornography, kidnap, solicitation, grooming, or a whole raft of other crimes. (35:15 to 40:19)
Informed consent. At what point do children have sufficient cognitive ability to make informed decisions? Cultural beliefs dictate what a person can or can’t do at a given age. However, the experiences a child has previously had, determines to what extent they can make informed decisions. Survival trains hard. Informed consent is a function of how ready a person is to agree to do something. A gay child will be more able to give informed consent if those around him are more accepting of his sexuality. Unfortunately society fails gay kids because gay support is denied to them. George: the kids come into the SQR chat rooms because they feel safe, wanted and accepted. Rookiee: they also get to talk to adults who are in a position to answer the many questions they have, adults who have been through the self-same situations in the past. The kids know what they want, and yet if they went for it, society would class it as abuse and punish accordingly. (40:20 to 48:09)
Stopping the unstoppable. Mutual attraction means it is going to happen regardless. No-one can stop kids from smoking even though it is illegal for them to do so. They will find ways to obtain the cigarettes, even though they cannot legally buy them in the shops. With mutual attraction, society will do all in its power to prevent their children practising same-sex intimacy for fear their offspring turn out gay. (48:10 to 50:24)
Anti-gay christianity. Boys as young as three years old being physically abused by their fathers to make them strong and macho, thereby reducing the chance that they turn out gay, or, a boy of eight being forcibly circumcised with a hunter’s knife by his father because it was “God’s Will”. Aqua: If God is all powerful and decided to make a small proportion of the global population gay, why do conservative Christians talk about how horrible gayness is and that being gay is a sin. It doesn’t matter what religion you follow. What does matter is how you apply your religion to everyday life, so long as it benefits everyone you come into contact with. Society is more willing to condone violence than it is to love fellow man. (50:25 to 56:05)
Pedologues Episode 7 (5 November 2005) Rookiee, Renée, Just Me, and Why How Which summary
Introductions. Renée introduced in episode 6. Just Me attended a Baptist seminary in preparation for entering the priesthood. Why How Which is a Brit. (03:20 to 05:14)
Feedback. Rookiee mentioned the Bibb and Yaz podcast. If Rookiee tries to post something on this duo’s website, he gets the response “Cork it child molester”. The duo claims that to be a paedophile, you need to be gay and into boys less than 10 years old; the boy also needs to be a faggot. This restriction rules out Renée who is female, and it also rules out everyone else who is into such boys. The two hosts of a second podcast found Pedologues boring, perhaps because it failed to confirm all their prejudices. (05:15 to 12:59)
SQIR archiving. Rookiee urging Sure Quality Radio Internet Radio (SQIR) DJs to hit the archive button and turn them into podcasts, especially if they are talk shows. Rookiee shouldn’t have to be the only one doing this type of podcast. (13:00 to 15:29)
18yo: man or boy? Rookiee: has noticed on media news, an 18yo is a man if he commits a crime, and a boy if he is a victim. Is an 18yo a man or a boy? Just Me: depends on the individual. Renée: a 15yo is a sometimes referred to as a young man. Rookiee: on occasion a 17yo is called a child, and a 10yo a youth. Why How Which: 15yo to 18yo is the range for a UK youth. US society refers to a 17yo as a victim of child abuse. Renée: if a 16yo is not old enough to vote, then no way should he be expected to go to war. A 10yo child can have the cognitive ability to decide to murder someone, and can thus be charged with murder as if he was an adult. (15:30 to 24:29)
UK youth restrictions. Why How Which: 18yo considered to be an adult. 16yo is the age of consent, but 21yo for homosexuals up till the early 1990s, before bringing it down to 18yo, and finally parity with heterosexuals. If one is in a position of authority, then it is illegal to have sex with your 16yo or 17yo students. (24:30 to 25:49)
Child grooming Wikipedia. Rookiee considered the article biased, so placed a fallacy tag against it. The author claimed ‘only paedophiles groomed children’ and ‘it is only used for explicit sexual intent’. The fallacy here is that grooming is also a term that applies to a range of child-rearing activities, child education, and establishing moral foundation. Rookiee’s re-write was effectively a neutral piece that removed author bias, but the author still took this down. Rookiee recommended people visit the article and comment on it as he did. The other dimension is that society has become more ‘online’ in recent years and less ‘in real life’, but the concept of child grooming remains the same and just as polarised. (25:50 to 33:54)
Limited citeable research. A big drawback is the lack of citeable research on the topic of adult-child relationships, to strengthen one’s case on resources such as Wikipedia. One notable exception is David Riegel, an American author, who wrote Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers. He published a number of other similar books. His first book contained online anonymous testimony in the style of Kinsey. Rookiee: suggest undertaking scientific research into the field of intergenerational relationships via a dedicated website, where individuals can record past experiences, either as an adult or as a child. First, brainstorm relevant questions to elicit ‘within-scope’ responses, and then subject the data to statistical analysis. Just Me: the law doesn’t always penalise an age gap between child and adult. In Missouri, a more than twenty year plus age gap between two adults can attract charges of molestation. (33:55 to 43:24)
Social changes. People can go out into the world without leaving their home whilst online. Chat rooms for many become social clubs. Renée depends on chat-rooms for her social life; she has no family where she lives, and the chat-rooms provide a surrogate family. On the topic of low-income families, parents have to work long hours to afford to live in a house that they can call their own. Historically, multiple generations lived under the same roof or in the same village. In post-war years, younger generations moved away to locate good jobs and higher incomes. More recently, as property prices rose, wages failed to keep up, so the younger generation has increasingly been forced to return to the family home. (43:25 to 49:20)
Pedologues Episode 8 (12 November 2005) Rookiee, Renée, Aqua, and Happy summary
Introductions. Renée introduced in episode 6. Aqua introduced in episode 7. Happy is a Brit. Waffle. (06:00 to 09:49)
Pre-podcast topics. Mr Kellogg of cornflakes invention fame, designed food products so that consumers would find them so boring and puritanical they would immediately take steps to become celibate. He thought masturbation amongst children was such a bad thing, that he promoted the manufacture of chastity belts to prevent them from touching themselves. (09:50 to 13:49)
Podcast Expo recording. (13:50 to 25:34)
Pushing Back Podcast - grooming. Rationale of Pushing Back podcast is to protect kids from online predators, without quantifying instances of online predator encounters? Rookiee mentions his hoped-for Kinsey-style statistics gathering initiative mentioned in episode 7, to compile statistics such as this. Aqua: no-one has approached me online in such a way to date. From the podcast: “Once a predator identifies a victim, they use a technique called online grooming to trap the child.” Happy: all they have done is choose a dirty word and relate it to paedophiles. This word can also be applied to adults predating other adults. Rookiee gives a further meaning: the moulding of a child by educators and parents alike. The negative connotation is a way of out-casting people from society. (25:35 to 28:54)
Pushing Back Podcast - coercion. From the podcast: “The systematic breaking down of a child’s mental and emotional state is geared to one goal: to meet the child in real life and assault him or her.” The narrator assumes that any sexual activity between an adult and a child is assault. It is assumed therefore that no minor can have sexual feelings whatsoever for another person. Happy: it is hard to believe that the narrator had no sexual feelings up to the age of 17. Rookiee: it is also hard to believe that someone has difficulty recalling their own burgeoning sexuality from puberty onwards. (28:55 to 30:14)
Pushing Back Podcast – porn use. From the podcast. “Perhaps you didn’t also know that the average age of exposure to pornographic material is 11 years old, and the largest consumers of internet pornography are children aged 12 to 17.” Rookiee: children are not aged 17. Aqua: the narrator is clearly reading from a script that someone else wrote. Rookiee would love to have the narrator on Pedologues. This narrator condones and supports vigilantism via PervertedJustice.com, referring to them as noble people. Happy: humans seem to have a basic need to hate others almost at a tribal level. (30:15 to 33:49)
Pushing Back Podcast – commercial porn. From the podcast: “This is the most incredible concept I have ever heard: Targeting kids to move a product that’s not meant for them in the first place. In a nutshell, companies use several tactics to get pornography in front of kids. They use soft porn ads. They use scantily-dressed women and sexual innuendo and videos. They advertise on sites they know kids are going to go to, even if the kids shouldn’t go to them.” Rookiee: The claim that the ads are being pushed on kids is a fallacy. Kids are biologically programmed to want to watch them. The narrator is in denial. (33:50 to 35:04)
Pushing Back Podcast – P2P files. From the podcast: “Peer to peer networks are full of innocently-named files and when you download them, they are pornography.” Rookiee: the narrator is insinuating that the primary source of the pornography is paedophiles, without actually saying it. This propaganda is all about control, and making society fearful so that it restricts the natural development of the child. (35:05 to 37:29)
From the podcast: “File-sharing networks like WinMX or BearShare, a child could search for pictures about batman, and end up downloading pornographic images.” Aqua: its people like the narrator that are trying to get the P2P networks shut down. Renée: but when one is shut down, another pops up. Rookiee: no matter how hard they try to suppress, people will find ways to overcome it. Even the Chinese government cannot stop its people from communicating, especially with the advent of the internet. (37:30 to 41:04)
Pushing Back Podcast – conclusion. Happy: I have never held a grudge against those who are ignorant, and that podcast narrator is ignorant. If you ever want to know the truth about something, just peel back the layers of deceit, brainwashing and propaganda, essentially everything you have learnt since you were born, and look logically at it for what it really is. Rookiee: George Carlin once said that the reason why the education system in America sucks, is because the people who run and own the country don’t want smart, intelligent critical thinkers; they want diligent workers and obedient servants. (41:05 to 44:49)
Podcast Expo recording cont. (44:50 to 01:03:49)
Waffle, goodbyes. (01:03:50 to 01:13:10)
Pedologues Episode 9 (20 November 2005) Rookiee, Fallen, Buddy Christ, Amigo, and Howard summary
Introductions
Howard is an on-line writer and his website cerius.org is entitled “A personal statement website on paedophile life and politics.” Website explains who I am, and why I feel the way this issue is handled today is dead wrong. Even some US communities exist that believe children need a healthy attitude towards sexuality, but today’s culture squelches that opinion terribly. Amigo: oppression not confined to the US; it pervades much of the west. (01:30 to 07:04)
Double standards
Fallen: case in Georgia of a 15yo boy marrying a 37yo woman. Work colleagues commented the woman must be the most disgusting person out there. If one swapped the genders, it wouldn’t be such a big deal, so double standards persist. Rookiee: the case of a 14yo involved with his hot 20yo English teacher, and the media saying: Damn, I wish my teacher was like that when I was at school. If they were male, they would be labelled a monster. Another case involved a woman who had sex with teenagers, got a 30-year sentence. Fallen: these are essentially victimless crimes. Taxpayer money to imprison these offenders must be astronomic over that time, and society does not benefit. Howard: not to mention the damage to the boys, from ridicule, or a possible custodial sentence. Two more age-difference cases where the woman was older: Demi Moore and Mary Kay Letourneau. (07:05 to 13:04)
Sex is bad
Buddy Christ: the dynamic of my first intimacy with someone younger was opposite, as I was not the instigator. I tend to acquiesce rather than play a lead role. Rookie: how old were you when on your first experience? Howard: 17yo with woman who solicited me; it was a one-off. No earlier experience due to illegality of such activity. I urgently wanted to lose my virginity by then. How much better if I had been with others willing to teach me, rather than jumping at this ugly bitch on my 17th birthday. (13:05 to 16:44)
Children’s rights
Rookiee: I disagree with those saying children should have no rights. They should have both rights and protections, for example, deciding what to do with their own body. In Mexico 12yo kids in rural areas drive vehicles, so they become an asset within farming communities. In California, legal restrictions mean youth have no clue how to drive until 18. The parallel with a child’s experience of sex is relevant, for example: prevented from having a loving encounter with another human being. George Carlin: “They have to wear helmets for everything except jacking off.” (16:45 to 18:44)
Sexually Transmitted Diseases
Buddy Christian: A reason why society is against teenage sex is STD threat. His mother is in medicine, and observes 17 year-olds already diagnosed with full HIV. When society creates a taboo subject by calling it a social disease, and refuses to educate the young, problems will arise. A virus doesn’t care who it targets; if your defences are down, it will likely attack you. (18:45 to 21:09)
Circumcision I
Buddy Christian: a lot of US males are circumcised, and the fact that glans are exposed 24/7 inevitably makes it less sensitive. Rookiee: mentioned having experience with someone who was uncircumcised. It was evident just how sensitive it can be down there. Amigo: in New Zealand, hardly any male is circumcised. At school, one boy was circumcised, and all his peers were checking him out as it was so unusual. Buddy Christian: How much is a plane ticket to New Zealand? (21:10 to 22:36)
New Zealand consent law
Amigo: New Zealand Reform Act states that a boy can make the decision to have sex at age 12. However, age of consent there is 16. If a boy between 12 and 16 reports an instance of “abuse” more than a year afterwards, there are no grounds for arrest and charging. So, the authorities believe a child of 12 can say yes to sex, but is dissuaded from doing so by law. (22:37 to 24:54)
Outdated laws
Rookiee: As society mores change, laws fail to keep pace. Many US laws are more than fifty years old. Fallen: notes that the constitution has sufficient elasticity for interpretation. Rookiee: When the constitution was written, everyone adhered to the moral code within the bible. Society has since replaced a puritanical lifestyle with a hedonistic one. Sodomy case and the banning of gay marriage in Texas reflect a puritan majority there. Civil rights ought to be based on fairness and equality; it should never be left to the majority vote because minorities will always lose out. Benjamin Franklin: ‘Democracy should be more than two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb.’ The more liberty exists, the more one can fight the popular vote. Buddy Christian: Thomas Jefferson: ‘People who give up liberty for security deserve neither’. Howard: Immigrants came to the US in the first place to escape religious persecution. Rookiee: the rules they established turned out to be more oppressive than the ones they were fleeing from. (24:55 to 31:24)
Circumcision II
Howard: Involved in paedophilia as a political issue for seven years, yet never thought too much about circumcision topic. I now conclude circumcision is a terrible act of torture on a defenceless child, and legalised sexual abuse. Many boys in the US have had their genitals mutilated. The screams that an infant utters during the procedure, tells you they really don’t like it, but that is the only way they can voice their refusal to consent. Society has forgotten why they do it. Religious people say if Jesus did it, we must do it too, so it continues. Medics of course profit, and so claim it is for the child’s own good. Rookiee: the sacred Jewish tradition historically to circumvent male infibulation by Israel’s enemies such as Romans. Howard highlights the resistance to outlawing circumcision. Even his own mother, who agreed to circumcise her son, claims the child feels no pain. She believes it is absolutely fine to chop off the end of an infant’s penis. But for a person to go and gently caress that penis whilst the child experiences pleasure, is a sin worthy of putting someone away forever. Puritan belief: sex solely comprises the missionary-position for procreation. (31:25 to 39:04)
Gay.com story
Howard: a 50 year old guy hooked up and had a conversation in chat room, asking about my chat room bio line: interested in boys. I confirmed yes. The guy was shocked, and asked why a boy would want a man of my age? I replied, an older male has knowledge and wisdom that is very attractive to a boy. The guy said, like ancient Greece? No, like throughout history, but now opposed by a rabidly oppressive culture. He was clearly disapproving, yet I did not back down. I got him to think about the subject in ways he had never done before. After, I felt proud of myself and considered it to be a small act of resistance and activism. Amigo: when you explain your attraction, it is possible to gain some understanding from your listener. (39:05 to 47:44)
Boylover boyhood experiences
Amigo: Knew I was a boylover at 13yo, but also knew I was not gay. All I heard via radio was that boylovers were monsters that hurt children. Gay then meant being into peers and older. Buddy Christian: knew I was attracted to the smaller boys at school, but did not feel I was a stereotypical gay, even though I questioned myself continuously. Fallen: When I was 8, I was attracted to a 7yo neighbour. I really wanted to see him in as little clothing as possible. One day I went up to him and pantsed him; he was in shock, got angry and tackled me. Fallen: By 12 the attraction was fully developed and I had an 8yo friend with benefits. In parallel, I had a huge crush on a girl at school who promptly left the area. Amigo: Girls were the thing up to 12, but recall an experience whilst camping when a peer jumped on me then began to feel me up. I was like ‘get off you faggot!’ A year later, I knew me better, and kicked myself for reacting the way I did. Buddy Christian: I am attracted to red-haired boys. One time a 11yo red-head class mate slept over. He asked whether we could sleep naked, but I said no, probably fearing he had a bigger penis than I did. I kick myself to this day for saying no. Rookiee: When 12 there was a 13yo who was so crushed on me. All my classmates knew he was gay, but I didn’t. Meanwhile I was crushed on an 11yo who was crushed on the 13yo. Piggy in the middle didn’t benefit from this triangle one bit, due to shyness and telling myself I was straight. I also kick myself to this day for lacking courage. (47:45 to 01:02:08)
Being kept ignorant
Howard: I felt ashamed and embarrassed when experiencing erections from 8yo on. I consider that I was sexually molested as a child by having my sexuality denied me, meaning being prevented from learning about my body and how to enjoy it. Instead, I was trained to be ashamed of it, told it was bad, and to cover it up because the book of Genesis said so. At the time, I was locked into that terrible perspective. (01:02:09 to 01:05:36)
Impact of religion
Amigo: What is the impact of religion on US kids in the US? Rookiee: Depends on your location, your situation, your family. Fallen: I have always been in religious schools, and all it does is breed sexual addicts. Rookiee: Whatever you make taboo becomes an obsession. They teach you sex education, then tell you not to do it. Amigo: New Zealand schools are not allowed to teach any distinct religious ideas. Buddy Christian: It would benefit the US if they actually took the Ten Commandments and followed them. (01:05:37 to 01:12:27)
Pedologues Episode 10 (27 November 2005) Rookiee, Just Me, Renée, Boy Story, and Aqua summary
Introductions. Just Me, Renée, Aqua introduced in previous episodes. Boy Story: tuned into SQIR for the first time at the suggestion of my young friend. Amadeus was hosting the show and it just so happens that Amadeus and I share a few acquaintances. I write short stories for Nifty.org. I am the Boy Story featured on that site’s LGBT erotic stories archive. Nifty.org has disclaimers saying you have to be over 18 to read the stories, but in reality, 80% of those that do are under 18. I had a purge of thirty-five members because their profiles explicitly stated they were under 18, or they included no age. The site does not allow rape or snuff stories. (01:25 to 12:39)
Boy Story’s story.
First realised I was into boys when I was 19. I was a ‘professional’ young friend, in other words, a slut, up to the age of 16, and went with older guys. When 16, I hooked up with a boy lover, and during our conversations, he said to me, you are really into younger guys, aren’t you? To which the response was: well yes, I am. (12:40 to 14:04)
What is boylove? Rookie: so he introduced to the world beyond just sex ... how would you define that world? Boy Story: essentially bettering the life of the boy, whether helping him with his homework, or instilling a sense of values, or increasing his self-esteem. There is a difference between the words values and morals. Values: be respectful of yourself and of others; be careful of what you do and how it affects others. Morals: a dogma taught to us by society which has a degree of merit, but is mostly bullshit. Historically, boy love has been around for eons. When a boy has no inclination towards sex, doesn’t mean to say you cannot form a relationship with him. Two types of attraction towards boys: boylovers and boyfuckers. The latter group cannot come close to calling themselves boylovers. (14:05 to 18:19)
Five love languages. Renée: like me and my adult friend when I was 11 and he was 36. There was nothing sexual between us until I was older, but he was there for me in many aspects of my life early on. Five love languages: quality time, acts of service, gifts, words of affirmation, physical touch. I took a love languages course before being allowed to get married. Unfortunately, my ex-husband had physical touch at the top of his list, and I had quality time as my priority, so conflicts arose. I try to practise that with my two young friends, but communicating with them online makes this difficult. Rookie: what is the love language they use for the adult? Renée: it depends because you find out every child is different, that is if you make the effort to listen. For children younger than say, five, they have not developed the concept of the five languages. Even up to seven years old, their personality is not yet fully formed. (18:20 to 23:09)
Demarcating AoA. Rookiee: in discussion with guys into really young children, I would ask: What would you really do with someone that young? I would draw the line maybe at 9yo from a sexual attraction perspective, but for younger, the interest would be passive although I might find them cute. Boy Story: in discussion on this topic, the age of consent laws are the worst ever written. Renée: the media always focuses on the bad stories concerning molestation, and never portrays the good side of child love. (23:10 to 26:46)
Someone to trust. Aqua: long-distance relationship when I was 11 and he was 21. He was a really nice person and would do anything for me, but ended up pursuing other people. The fact that I was able to open up to him and discuss pretty much anything was good. Just Me: I have had similar young friends who turn to me for the very same reasons as Aqua stated. One boy was able to contact me when his home situation got really bad, and I would pick him up and was there for him as listener. (26:47 to 31:54)
Conflict with religion. Just Me: I studied in a seminary to become a priest, but then left. I have been through the paradox between my faith and the potential evil and intolerance the church symbolises within the child love community. Rookie: playing the Devil’s Advocate: some might say, as a religious leader, you should know better than to represent an agency that broadcasts a ‘homosexuality is wrong’ mantra. Just Me: age is never mentioned in the bible, and homosexuality was introduced from the King James version onwards. Rookiee: age of consent is a recent invention. Just Me: in the time of Jesus, one could marry at 12 years old. The excuse used to get round that fact is that morality has advanced since then, but at the same time other cultures retain that morality. Renée: just because the US thinks itself better than anyone else, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s true. (31:55 to 39:34)
Sociology versus Biology. Rookiee: historically, life expectancy was half of what it is today, so marriage would have to happen at a much earlier age. Just Me: maybe as we are living longer and the decision to raise a family is being put back further, so children are being born to older parents. Rookiee: perhaps social aspects of our society are becoming misaligned with our biological aspects. Our bodies are telling us to do something that is well ahead of what is now socially acceptable. Boy Story: in addition, children are entering puberty several years earlier than historically. (39:35 to 41:48)
Cry for help. Boy Story received an email from a 15yo boy commenting on a Nifty.org erotic story called Gabriel, a 15yo fictional character who meets someone in a chat room, and decides to meet this person. The email correspondent who is gay, said Gabriel’s story really touched him. He lives in a house with a conservative rabidly anti-gay father and an acquiescent mother. His father gives him tips on how to get girls. He knows he will be kicked out of the house and excommunicated if ever his parents discover his true sexuality identity. He says he really wishes he wasn’t gay and could make his father happy. The only gay outlet he has is Nifty.org. At school, he has to put up with his peers who revel in their homophobia. His email continues for another sixteen paragraphs. (47:30 to 50:38)
Youth support. Renée: a YMCA set up for the gay and lesbian youth in my town, run by people who understand what kids go through. They have their own Pride parade. Aqua: really no outlet or support where I live. It is made difficult because as soon as an older guy appears on the scene, the support becomes evil. Boy Story: ten years ago, I did voluntary unpaid Los Angeles gay and lesbian youth counselling, providing advice to teens. However, it was perceived by the parents that as I was in my thirties providing advice to teens, I was there for an ulterior motive. The director broke the news, so I resigned. That was a let-down for me, because I really enjoyed the work. At no point did I communicate my attraction for boys within that agency or when chatting to the teens. The teens trusted me sufficiently to confide their problems, knowing that I would not come on to them. (50:39 to 01:02:18)