Special Article: List of Pedologues summaries
Pedologues was a podcast for MAPs running from Sep 2005-Sep 2006.
Here, we summarize the episodes with timestamps linking to the audio file of the relevant episode on FreeSpeechTube.
Pedologues is not affiliated with Newgon, nor FreeSpeechTube. The former predated the latter two, and the original participants have not been active in the archiving of this project.
Pedologues Episode 1 (10 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas summary
Domain name set-up problems
Locating service providers prepared to allow an individual’s right to freedom of speech online. Contrasting responses from Libsyn.Org and DomainsByProxy.Com. Barriers to maintaining anonymity legally whilst managing a domain. (01:30 to 10:39)
Pedologues rationale
Who we are: Rookiee, Abraxas. Why we are here: help put the truth out, defend childlove, and support childlovers, especially young childlovers, and stigmatised youth. Law enforcement once told Abraxus that “we” never want you people to ever be given the opportunity to try and tell others about yourselves in a positive light. (10:40 to 13:29)
Perceptions of childlove
Society’s view versus childlove community’s view. Who is right? Love is always right. However, US cultural ideals tell us certain types of love are wrong. This is a distortion of the truth. This distortion is applied, for example, as punishment on any child exhibiting an “unhealthy” interest in their own taboo body parts or those of others. “Educators” go out of their way to ignore discussing these taboo body parts with the child. (13:30 to 23:19)
Sex education
What age do you teach a child about sex? Rookiee relates story about his over-protective mother, and the difficulty she had had in discussing the topic once he began to ask leading questions. Many children are kept in ignorance because the “educators” are too embarrassed to educate. In these situations, children seek information from alternative sources, ones they can trust. (23:20 to 27:59)
Self-loathing
Negative historic child abuse experience and/or paedophilic self-loathing shaping negative adult opinions toward intergenerational relationships. This dynamic occurred also within the homosexual community at a time when adult same-sex intimacy was illegal. (28:00 to 32:29)
Profit from discrimination
Increasingly, child abuse stories sell well, so anti-paedophile propaganda is a good business model for the media. Profit at the expense of a sexual minority group by highlighting the worst child abuse cases and repeatedly tell their readers that all paedophiles are capable of such crimes. When the media repeats a lie often enough, the falsehood becomes the truth and a stereotype is born. The stereotype is not easily dismantled even when contrary evidence is made available sufficient for them to experience cognitive dissonance. (32:30 to 40:59)
Grooming versus teaching
Parents mould their offspring into a shape that easily fits into society. The process of moulding is considered by society to be teaching the child. If the child responds well to this teaching, they can be rewarded say with a gift if their expectations are fulfilled. Society however, takes a very different view of communication between a paedophile and a child. Society interprets such communication as grooming, and if proven by law enforcement, the paedophile can be registered as a sex offender. (41:00 to 47:59)
Cotton wool kids
Face to face communication steadily being replaced by online communication. It is becoming harder to really get to know people. The younger generation is increasingly identifying with celebrities who they have never met in real life to such an extent they can be considered to be surrogate friends. In reality, the fans have fallen in love with the celebrity’s ego. (48:00 to 50:29)
Pedologues Episode 2 (17 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas summary
Response to episode 1
Sixty listeners. Improvements to broadcast quality. (01:30 to 04:39)
Suggested topics for discussion
Sex offender registries, child pornography, literature, urban dictionary. (04:50 to 06:09)
Homosexual versus paedophile
Urban dictionary definition of “paedophile” and “homosexual”. “Homosexual: a person whose sexual preference is members of the same sex. Homosexuality is not a perversion or a disease, but merely an aspect of sexuality that has been around for thousands of years.” “Paedophile: a person who suffers from paedophilia, that is, an adult who is sexually attracted to children. Paedophilia is a mental disorder, not a sexual orientation or lifestyle choice. Specifically it is a paraphilia. The paraphilias are characterised by a recurrence of sexual urges, fantasies or behaviours that involve unusual objects, activities or situations. Terms like paedosexuals are misnomers and nothing more than political activism on the part of organised groups of paedophiles attempting to legitimise or legalise their abuse and predation of children.” (06:10 to 11:49)
Recommended literature
For MAPs who seek accurate information on the topic of boy love, girl love and youth sexuality: Tom o’Carroll: Paedophilia The Radical Case. Dr Edward Brongersma: Loving Boys Vols I and II. Anything by Theo Sandfort. Dr Judith Levine: Harmful to Minors. Rod Downey: The Moralist. (11:50 to 13:39)
Sex offender registries
They do not work. Registries are available for all to see online via websites such as “pedo-watch”, detailing sex offender photos, addresses, phone numbers plus other personal information. Apart from being fear generators, they function as hit lists for vigilantes to mete out rough justice without having to worry about law enforcement intervention. This is the closest the US has come to installing Nazi death camps, apart from setting up internment camps for Japanese prisoners of war. On-line offender registries for other crimes do not exist. (13:40 to 20:19)
Sex offender discrimination
Negative impact on the sex offender: barred from applying for housing as association is liable if any problems arose, employment terminated when hire found to be an offender, employment refused if job entails contact with children, keep beyond radius of 2000 feet around schools so large areas in towns become forbidden zones, notify authorities when car changed or address changed, law enforcement can search house without warrant at any time so no right to privacy and no fourth amendment, lose right not to incriminate yourself and thus the fifth amendment, offenders are forced to coalesce into colonies. Offenders continue to be punished long after they have paid their debt to society. Hypocrisy of law enforcement agencies encouraging sex offenders to succeed upon release whilst simultaneously removing all practical means to do so. (20:20 to 29:49)
Poll
Who would you prefer to socialise with a paedophile or a member of al-Qaeda? (29:50 to 31:29)
Boy celebrities
Zack and Cody, Paul Butcher. With the sound turned down, easier to concentrate on your masturbation fantasies and techniques. (31:30 to 33:29)
Pornography definitions
Has to be distributed, has to be commercial and has to be lacking in artistic merit. But, what constitutes artistic merit? (33:30 to 35:04)
Child pornography
Difficult to eradicate, and, from a MAP’s perspective, such material will always exist so long as the face of the child can be seen. One should draw a distinction between child pornography and child erotica, the former is harmful in some way, whereas the latter has the ability to arouse. Pornography is neither the portrayal of the naked human form nor the portrayal of the natural loving human sexual act. Conflict in some US states between child pornography law and age of consent law: legal to have sex with a 16 year-old girl but a nude photo of her is child pornography. Instance of a 13 year-old boy being arrested for distributing child pornography, specifically photos of his naked self online. A naked child is now judged as obscene; in reality, a child’s body is beautiful and charming. Hypocritically, historic artefacts on display in public places, such as Michaelangelo’s David, are exempt from child pornography laws as they are deemed to be culturally significant. (35:05 to 44:54)
Peace versus aggression
Carl Sagan’s book Cosmos, final chapter: in studying anthropology, scientists conclude that peaceful humane societies allow open and free expression of nudity and sexuality across all ages, whereas aggressive societies make sex and nudity shameful, discriminate against sexual minorities, prohibit sexual expression among children, and thus become detached from humanity. (44:55 to 49:19)
Pedologues as activism
We are two individuals communicating the range of ideas raised on MAP boards in the hope that we can ultimately change societal attitudes towards MAPs. There are a lot of different perspectives within our community, and having this podcast we hope to open up discussion on these perspectives to a wider audience. Although the MAP boards are beneficial to those who participate, they are limited in what they can achieve simply because too many people hide among them, like frogs in a pond. By leaping out of the pond and engaging in activism there is of course increased risk, but there is no other way to change society. If more frogs left the pond to do more podcasts, then more voices would be heard and there would be a greater chance of bringing about change. (49:20 to 55:40)
Pedologues Episode 3 (24 September 2005) Rookiee and Abraxas summary
Failing education
HBO ‘parenting special’ focusing on the daily issues a US child has from the child’s perspective, in junior high school at age 12, and then two years later the same child at 14. It was apparent that at 12 years old, some of those kids would not be able to consent because they lacked sufficient communication skills, and hadn’t even figured themselves out, or the world around them, at that point. Failing education stunts a child’s development, for example: inadequate sex education. Useful to conduct similar HBO exercise say in Norway, or even say between US city kids and US rural kids, for comparison. (03:46 to 09:09; 12:30 to 14:49)
Keep children innocent
Societal mantra: children are innocent and must continue to be so. Innocence is a puritanical moralising term bearing no relevance to reality. Substitute “ignorance” for “innocence”. Due to these restrictions, the older child has to overturn/relearn cultural values into adulthood as reality becomes apparent. Freud: children have innate sexuality. (09:10 to 12:29)
Childhood sexual freedom
1978 Danish movie ‘You Are Not Alone’. Film features a developing love affair between a post-pubescent boy and a pre-pubescent boy, in a supportive community. Denmark is a more open socialist country. By not imposing moral strictures on them, children are allowed to freely experiment and taste freedom. Film touches upon tensions between moralising Christians and liberty-promoting socialists. A noticeable thing about the film was the absence of any reprimand directed at the two boys. Often, US films with a similar theme depict an authoritarian figure entering the scene who then breaks up the relationship. Sex education is a taboo subject in the US and much avoided by adults who have responsibility for children. (14:50 to 20:59)
Conflict of conscience
Try to learn to think about the bigger picture to understand what lies behind other people’s viewpoints, even if they are hate-filled. Attempt to learn from life experiences. Inner conflicts often arise from the way a person is raised. (21:00 to 24:39)
Telling others
Rookiee has real hard time discussing his inner thoughts and experiences without risking incrimination (he breaks down at this point for five minutes, and continues to be pretty upset for the rest of the podcast). The conundrum of dating and fearing a date’s reaction to learning about his primary sexuality, having to hide the truth about himself from the world, like Jews in wartime Germany. His mother discovering lewd drawings, and confronting him at the dinner table: ‘How could you be so deviant?’ All he can do is hope the world will change. (24:40 to 31:09)
MAPs denounce MAPs. MAPs that do a disservice to their community. One guy handing out bubblegum in public to kids, instilling fear in communities. Self-loathing MAPS willing to denounce other MAPs for viewing illegal material. (31:10 to 33:14)
Historical discrimination
Just occasional glimmers of hope through friends and family who one comes out to. Response from a 19 year-old friend Rookiee opened up to was: don’t let the topic consume you or make you depressed. Friendship was a long-standing one, and Rookiee had, during that time, taught the boy a trade which in turn led to a computing career. But still people would say, well I hope to God you didn’t touch the boy whilst he was young. Parallel with black people in the 1960’s through no fault of their own happened to be born a different colour, and yet they were stigmatised and discriminated against. A further parallel: gays. Fortunately, it is now politically incorrect for bigots to discriminate against blacks and gays, but that recognition came about through hard-fought activism. (33:15 to 38:09)
Gays betray MAPs
The Gay agenda pushing MAPs aside as outcasts, whilst conveniently forgetting the historic union of the two dating back to ancient times when the concept of democracy was established. Abraxus thanks Rookiee for opening up and for his honesty about his internal conflicts, adding that many people within the MAP community face similar dilemmas. Rookiee goes into further detail about his young friend and voices regret over not looking out for him more whilst the boy was suffering physical and mental abuse from his father, also Rookiee’s work colleague. (38:10 to 43:14)
Ignorance and prejudice
The problem of holding honest conversations with people; risking being made to feel bad about yourself once that person responds. Risking creating a bad impression. Having to lie about yourself to protect yourself. What is deviance? Society being spoon-fed the lies, reinforcing their own ignorance and prejudices. (43:15 to 48:49)
MAP community diversity
Pedologues Episode 4 (10 October 2005) Rookiee and Rebellee summary
Boylover.net moderation
Rebellee is the entertainments officer of boylover.net and has been there since the beginning. Discussion about his role as a boylover.net moderator and the difficulty in keeping the peace, and having to resign because he no longer enjoyed the role. (01:35 to 11:24)
Story of Rebellee
He talked about the significance of the name Rebellee, and he told the story of meeting a 10 year-old boy at a racquet-ball club sitting on the steps. He asked the boy if he intended to go in to play, and the boy said I can’t, I am on my own so they won’t let me in. Rebellee told the boy I have no-one with me – come in with me. The pair spent two hours together in the club playing sport. Rebellee visited the club the following day, and guess who was sitting on the steps again: the same boy. Rebellee asked the boy what his name was. Rebel Lee said the boy. He was a boy who lived with older parents who were obviously not that interested in him; he had anger issues and obviously needed an adult in his life to look up to. Over the following years, Rebellee fulfilled that role for the boy. (11:25 to 14:39)
Being a boylover
What does it mean? Rebellee: boys are the greatest creatures on this earth and I would do anything to help a boy. A boy lover is not a child molester, the former has a boy’s best interests at heart whereas the latter is someone looking for a quick fix to satisfy his physical needs. (14:40 to 15:49)
Choosing one’s sexuality
Society’s view of paedophiles. Society believes that an adult can choose his or her sexuality; they fail to comprehend that a child lover is given no choice in the matter. We are what we are, and we have to live with that. Rebellee knew instinctively from age 11, that he liked boys. Society is ignorant if they believe that child lovers have mental issues due to an underlying sickness. Most intelligent people realise that paedophilia exists, but they just don’t want it considered acceptable. (15:50 to 18:19)
Paedophobia
Misuse of the word paedophile. Parents are terrified their boy will turn out homosexual, and the thought of their boy being around a boylover petrifies them because such a friendship will make their boy gay. If parents became aware that their innocent 8, 9, 10 year-old was playing with himself at night in bed while fantasising about another boy, they would be horrified and unable to accept it. It is ironic that we are intelligent enough to fly to the moon and back, and yet unable to accept what we are. The only game in town involves just heterosexuality and male and female. (18:20 to 21:49)
Celebrity boys you were into when you yourself were a boy
Normalising paedophilia
Will paedophilia ever be normalised and accepted? Rebellee: it has a long way to go. Only progress possible when stigmatisation of being gay stops once and for all, and homosexuality is treated as valid as heterosexuality. Such a shift has to start in the school environment, and right now there is no shift.(41:15 to 43:30)
Rebellee’s boylove genesis
Rebellee: First sexual experience was during a sleepover at age 11 with a same-age friend who initiated play after asking if he could do so. The only thought from that point on was of boys. There was a further incident at age 7 or 8, when sharing a room with another boy; both had showered and were dressed in bath robes, but the other boy approached him and undid the robe chord and stared at his naked body. Rebellee was furious and spurned his advances. Rebellee did not realise boys aged around 10 was the primary attraction until he was 15 years old. Girls were never in the picture. He had zero sex education as a child, and had no clue that boys played sexually with other boys. If parents found out what was going on between the two 11 year-old boys, they would call it “nasty”. (46:00 to 50:44)
Childhood guilt
Guilt about having sexual thoughts. Rebellee went to a Catholic school where he had to attend confession. He answered affirmative to the question posed by the priest on the topic of impure thoughts, and answered negative to the question of touching himself. By 10 years-old Rebellee was finished with the Catholic church anyway. Rookiee: An over-protective mother restricted him. Only when the mother discussed sex with her son, did self-experimentation begin, and always within the privacy of his bedroom. At age 7 or 8 within the school urinal, several boys invited him to come and perform synchronised peeing. His thought was this was the naughtiest thing ever, so he shied away. In retrospect, so many chances to do naughty things, but insufficient daring to follow through. Another experience at age 9 or 10, was a rare sleepover when two brothers in the house he stayed at, got undressed for bed and Rookie just stood there gawping as they stripped down to their tighty-whities. The older brother asked him to leave for his own room, and as he left, he felt really weird. He was so unfamiliar with human anatomy that the boy nakedness in front of him was a revelation. (50:45 to 01:02:46)
Discovering porn
Rookiee: When 11, accessed adult straight porn on his father’s computer by running a Norton utility to undelete files that had been deleted by his father, and placed the jpeg files on a disk to view on his own computer via a jpeg viewer. He managed to accumulate quite the porn collection in this way. When a friend came round, Rookiee showed off his computer, and the friend immediately asked whether he had some porn, to which the response was a flat “No!”. Rookiee looks back on that event as a missed opportunity simply because he was scared and so out of touch socially. Rebellee: His step-father had a porn collection, but these were photographs kept in a locked draw. He figured out the porn could be reached by opening the drawer below. He was happy to share the porn with friends when they came around. (01:02:47 to 01:05:44)
Molestation versus boylove. Rebellee: there were instances when men wanted to come onto me when I was a boy, but because they made physical advances, didn’t talk to me, and didn’t give me a choice, that scared me so I left the scene every time. I often wondered what might have happened is a man took me under his wing. These instances really made me afraid of men, and I really had no attraction towards men nor individuals older than myself. (01:05:45 to 01:18:14)
Age of consent
Rookiee: Sex education should be sufficiently thorough to educate a boy from a young age. That will then give him sufficient knowledge to decide from that whether to wants to experiment sexually with another person. Society should be sufficiently humane to allow him to experiment from that young age with whomever he wants. Rebellee: you should let mother nature decide when the time is right to experiment sexually, and that would be when the boy is able to ejaculate. This is essentially a compromise between what a boy might desire at an even younger age, and what society feels is appropriate. (01:18:15 to 01:23:46)
Pedologues Episode 5 (16 October 2005) Rookiee, Jeffrey Gold (SQIR) and Jessie summary
Categorising antis
Three types of people against us. Those who have been hurt in the past from some traumatic experience. Those who don’t understand us and just follow the status quo. Those who outwardly preach right-wing conformity. Difficult to combat these three types in one go as each opposes us in different ways. Jeffrey: Those hurt in the past suddenly appear when they realise they can make a lot of money by suing a third party for that past hurt. In parallel the media love child abuse stories, and politicians get more votes from an increasingly fearful society for invoking more stringent laws. (04:25 to 11:06)
Consent law validity
Rookiee: First few pedologues had blunt content. Perhaps we would make more progress if we were to address public concerns rather than debunk them, particularly on the topic of adults taking advantage of children. Age of consent law may be the best way to do this, for example Dutch law where a 12/16 bar with caveats was established until 2002. However, it was then raised to 16 thereafter. The US secretary of state Rice recently pressured Russia into raising the age of consent from 14 to 16. (11:07 to 14:04)
Over-protected child
Jeffrey: A 13 year-old boy he saw with his mother, followed her around like a lost puppy dog, and he thought ... nope, not ready. Firstly, over-protection means that at age 18, a boy is more likely to have insufficient skills to cope with real-world reality and adult responsibilities. Secondly, overprotection and pampering instils a sense of entitlement in mid-teens, which again is likely to cause the boy problems later on. Third, by not encouraging a child to discover things by himself, one removes the opportunity to experience a sense of achievement. A whole generation is being raised by adult rules and restrictions thereby stunting mental development. Educational authorities need to delay exit exams for up to 20% of US students to enable them to obtain their diplomas. Older generations validate these changes, by relating many under-protection experiences when they were kids. By raising the age of consent, governments only exacerbate the root problem. Wealthy people in cities are more tolerant of homosexuality than poor people in rural communities; the former are better informed. (14:05 to 26:19)
Creationism versus evolution. Religion and faith are all very well, but when you add humans to it you get chaos. Christianity is all about power and control. There are many different types of Christians, but mostly they preach bullshit to children about creationism and ignore evolution, that is to say: subservience trumps natural order. (26:20 to 38:09)
Single-parent families
The non-existent two-parent family. Children need knowledgeable and accepting others around them – people they can respect. Increasingly, single-parent families are the norm with endless temporary partners who have no wish to associate with or care for the child. (38:10 to 38:54)
Boylover's raison d'être
Misconception of the antis that all we want is bed the minor. In reality most boylovers first and foremost want to care and look out for the boy. (38:55 to 44:03)
Jessie’s abuse story
Jessie: Yes, abused between the ages of 4 and 13, and over time, multiple people forcing themselves upon me, especially when in foster care. I do not blame them for it even though I did not like it, but I could have done nothing to stop it - if I raised it with the police or councillors at the time, it would have led to even more problems for me, for example: shrinks coming to visit me and “fix” me. Those who force themselves on others are predators, not boylovers, and only out to get sexual gratification. The good folk are the boylovers who only want to help them learn and figure things out as they grow, and to generally support them. That is why I support them. (44:04 to 50:59)
Boylove, paedosexuality, paederasty
Three different terms that people muddle together. Paedosexuality is the sexual attraction towards a minor. Boylove is a moral ideal that paedosexuals attempt to achieve to set some sort of moral standard regarding their sexual attraction. Paederasty is the act of having a sexual relationship with a minor. Paederasty in ancient Greek times was more the definition of boylover, focusing on mentorship as a protégé. A high sense of morality was placed on the relationship, implying it was sanctioned by society. (51:00 to 57:04)
Explaining boylove to straights. Jeffrey: You know how you love women, and it is not always sexual, sure you want to get some, what guy doesn’t, but it’s not always that, occasionally it is the love you have for her as a person, and the respect she shows towards you. Also the value you place in mutual communication and sharing life experiences. Imagine if tomorrow, the government made the love you have for each other, illegal. Further, they also made it illegal for you to walk down a street and say hello to a woman you were attracted to, because the woman would be at risk from grooming. Jeffrey has come out to all his work colleagues and it transpires they support him. (57:05 to 59:47)
Enlightening the masses
Better world for all of us if somehow people could become more enlightened than they currently are. Rookieee: We are facing the stigma of homosexuality, plus the stigma of intergenerational relationships. The more hysteria gets heaped on these stigmas, the more problems society creates for itself. This is a vicious circle. If boylovers had unfettered access to boys, there would still be child rapes and child murders, but the boylovers will have had say, one hundred boys they will have nurtured, taught and treated as a little brother; very few of these will have also been sexual relationships. We are at the stage where children may as well walk around in public spaces with full-cover hijabs so adults cannot see any part of them. (59:48 to 01:05:00)
Pedologues Episode 6 (30 October 2005) Rookiee, Renée, Aqua, and George summary
Pedologues intro-outro music
Rookiee concerned Lennon’s acoustic guitar music may attract litigation from Oko Yono, and asked listeners to propose alternative theme music. (02:10 to 04:40)
Introductions, listener feedback
First email from a straight 16yo: “You are not just preaching to the choir. Initial reaction was ‘What The Hell ...’, however, I was intrigued enough to listen to one of your podcasts. Although I don’t agree 100% with your views, there is hope enough to educate people. I realise you are no more evil than gays, and so not evil at all. You honestly want to love like your heart tells you to. I sincerely hope that one day, people will be able to love whom they wish.” Second email from 18yo male: “When I first listened to Pedologues, it confused me that you should use the term paedophile to describe yourselves. On looking up this term in the AOL dictionary supplied to me free at college, it says ‘An adult who is sexually attracted to children, a child molester. Re paedophilia ‘A sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.’”. George: stereotypical discrimination. (04:40 to 14:34)
AAMs
The 18yo correspondent goes on to say that his AOA is 12 to 18, but cannot understand how a child could ever be sexually attracted to an adult. Renée recalls the 36yo adult friend she had a consensual loving relationship with at age 11. He was a customer at the coffee shop where she worked that she got closer and closer to. Her mother did not object to their initially non-sexual relationship. Aqua who is 12yo and gay, is attracted to age range 12yo to 30yo. Rookiee at age 10, found boys of same age attractive, but as he grew older, the age of attraction remained constant. As a 12yo, being attracted to 10yo boys is called homosexuality, but as you grow older, it is called paedophilia, even though it is still homosexuality. (14:35 to 19:39)
AOA versus sexual attraction
The public focus less on age, more on how wrong paedophilic attraction is, stereotypically: 'How could anyone possibly be sexually attracted to a youngster in the first place?' The ensuing hysteria results in individual profiling to obtain a classification of mental illness. It is not considered too big a problem for a 12yo to be sexually attracted to another 12yo. However, as soon as that age gap widens, the small problem gets inflated to humungous proportions. (19:40 to 21:27)
Gay youth
Pro-gay talk-show host Bill Handel on KFI AM 640, talks about gay youth and how they are coming out at an earlier age and discussing their gay realisation. First clip: Handel noted that social conservatives, who are anti-gay anyway, are very concerned about gay adolescents being given an opportunity to come out publicly. Second clip: during the 1960s, gay men recalled desiring other males at age 14 whilst gay women recalled desiring other women at age 17. By the 1990s the age had dropped to 10 for boys, and 12 for girls. Handel adds that youngsters shouldn’t endure the same loneliness and longing that gay people had to endure in the past. Handel recalled his first sexual experience at age 12 with an older woman of around 20. He also commended the Netherlands for having a comprehensive and progressive age of consent policy for Dutch youth. (21:28 to 26:14)
Kidnap, Rape, Torture
However, as soon as Handel talks about paedophiles, the tone changes, and the crimes of kidnap, rape and torture emerge and they become synonymous with the concept of paedophilia. Handel plays a clip of Oprah Winfrey offering a $100,000 reward to anyone denouncing such people to the FBI. Rookiee: people are blurring the line between people who want to hurt others, and people who are biologically and naturally attracted to others. It may be that such people had their natural attraction suppressed to such a degree, they took a wrong turn and made inappropriate decisions. Renée’s story: At age 14, she was a victim of violent rape. She was teaching English to a 50 year old student, and he imprisoned her for more than 24 hours, the period of time the authorities let lapse before taking action. Once she had been found, released, and taken to safety, her doctors said that in a further two hours, she would have bled to death. The rapist is still roaming the streets. (26:15 to 31:59)
Grooming families
Handel talks about single men worming their way into family homes, all the while being friendly but at the same time, harbouring ulterior motives. Rookiee discusses the point Kinsey made about individuals who have been sexuality suppressed. Such people tend to become obsessed with specific objects of desire. (32:00 to 35:14)
Intergenerational gay friendship
If kids know they are gay at 10 or 12 years old, and they enter into a reciprocal friendship with an older friend, what makes it wrong for those two people to enjoy this relationship? George: if you both know in your heart it is right and you want to celebrate that friendship together, then that is a matter solely for the two of you. It is not up to society to prevent such a friendship. Rookiee: Is it society’s censorship of finding children sexual that outlaws such relationships, or is it society preventing a couple from deciding themselves? The panel: both. George: society’s usual response to the child ... wait until you are a little older, then you will know. Society’s response to the adult... if you do that, you will be charged with molestation, child pornography, kidnap, solicitation, grooming, or a whole raft of other crimes. (35:15 to 40:19)
Informed consent
At what point do children have sufficient cognitive ability to make informed decisions? Cultural beliefs dictate what a person can or can’t do at a given age. However, the experiences a child has previously had, determines to what extent they can make informed decisions. Survival trains hard. Informed consent is a function of how ready a person is to agree to do something. A gay child will be more able to give informed consent if those around him are more accepting of his sexuality. Unfortunately society fails gay kids because gay support is denied to them. George: the kids come into the SQR chat rooms because they feel safe, wanted and accepted. Rookiee: they also get to talk to adults who are in a position to answer the many questions they have, adults who have been through the self-same situations in the past. The kids know what they want, and yet if they went for it, society would class it as abuse and punish accordingly. (40:20 to 48:09)
Stopping the unstoppable
Mutual attraction means it is going to happen regardless. No-one can stop kids from smoking even though it is illegal for them to do so. They will find ways to obtain the cigarettes, even though they cannot legally buy them in the shops. With mutual attraction, society will do all in its power to prevent their children practising same-sex intimacy for fear their offspring turn out gay. (48:10 to 50:24)
Anti-gay christianity
Boys as young as three years old being physically abused by their fathers to make them strong and macho, thereby reducing the chance that they turn out gay, or, a boy of eight being forcibly circumcised with a hunter’s knife by his father because it was “God’s Will”. Aqua: If God is all powerful and decided to make a small proportion of the global population gay, why do conservative Christians talk about how horrible gayness is and that being gay is a sin. It doesn’t matter what religion you follow. What does matter is how you apply your religion to everyday life, so long as it benefits everyone you come into contact with. Society is more willing to condone violence than it is to love fellow man. (50:25 to 56:05)
Pedologues Episode 7 (5 November 2005) Rookiee, Renée, Just Me, and Why How Which summary
Introductions
Renée introduced in episode 6. Just Me attended a Baptist seminary in preparation for entering the priesthood. Why How Which is a Brit. (03:20 to 05:14)
Feedback
Rookiee mentioned the Bibb and Yaz podcast. If Rookiee tries to post something on this duo’s website, he gets the response “Cork it child molester”. The duo claims that to be a paedophile, you need to be gay and into boys less than 10 years old; the boy also needs to be a faggot. This restriction rules out Renée who is female, and it also rules out everyone else who is into such boys. The two hosts of a second podcast found Pedologues boring, perhaps because it failed to confirm all their prejudices. (05:15 to 12:59)
SQIR archiving
Rookiee urging Sure Quality Radio Internet Radio (SQIR) DJs to hit the archive button and turn them into podcasts, especially if they are talk shows. Rookiee shouldn’t have to be the only one doing this type of podcast. (13:00 to 15:29)
18yo: man or boy?
Rookiee: has noticed on media news, an 18yo is a man if he commits a crime, and a boy if he is a victim. Is an 18yo a man or a boy? Just Me: depends on the individual. Renée: a 15yo is a sometimes referred to as a young man. Rookiee: on occasion a 17yo is called a child, and a 10yo a youth. Why How Which: 15yo to 18yo is the range for a UK youth. US society refers to a 17yo as a victim of child abuse. Renée: if a 16yo is not old enough to vote, then no way should he be expected to go to war. A 10yo child can have the cognitive ability to decide to murder someone, and can thus be charged with murder as if he was an adult. (15:30 to 24:29)
UK youth restrictions
Why How Which: 18yo considered to be an adult. 16yo is the age of consent, but 21yo for homosexuals up till the early 1990s, before bringing it down to 18yo, and finally parity with heterosexuals. If one is in a position of authority, then it is illegal to have sex with your 16yo or 17yo students. (24:30 to 25:49)
Child grooming Wikipedia
Rookiee considered the article biased, so placed a fallacy tag against it. The author claimed ‘only paedophiles groomed children’ and ‘it is only used for explicit sexual intent’. The fallacy here is that grooming is also a term that applies to a range of child-rearing activities, child education, and establishing moral foundation. Rookiee’s re-write was effectively a neutral piece that removed author bias, but the author still took this down. Rookiee recommended people visit the article and comment on it as he did. The other dimension is that society has become more ‘online’ in recent years and less ‘in real life’, but the concept of child grooming remains the same and just as polarised. (25:50 to 33:54)
Limited citable research
A big drawback is the lack of citeable research on the topic of adult-child relationships, to strengthen one’s case on resources such as Wikipedia. One notable exception is David Riegel, an American author, who wrote Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers. He published a number of other similar books. His first book contained online anonymous testimony in the style of Kinsey. Rookiee: suggest undertaking scientific research into the field of intergenerational relationships via a dedicated website, where individuals can record past experiences, either as an adult or as a child. First, brainstorm relevant questions to elicit ‘within-scope’ responses, and then subject the data to statistical analysis. Just Me: the law doesn’t always penalise an age gap between child and adult. In Missouri, a more than twenty year plus age gap between two adults can attract charges of molestation. (33:55 to 43:24)
Social changes
People can go out into the world without leaving their home whilst online. Chat rooms for many become social clubs. Renée depends on chat-rooms for her social life; she has no family where she lives, and the chat-rooms provide a surrogate family. On the topic of low-income families, parents have to work long hours to afford to live in a house that they can call their own. Historically, multiple generations lived under the same roof or in the same village. In post-war years, younger generations moved away to locate good jobs and higher incomes. More recently, as property prices rose, wages failed to keep up, so the younger generation has increasingly been forced to return to the family home. (43:25 to 49:20)
Pedologues Episode 8 (12 November 2005) Rookiee, Renée, Aqua, and Happy summary
Introductions
Renée introduced in episode 6. Aqua introduced in episode 7. Happy is a Brit. Waffle. (06:00 to 09:49)
Pre-podcast topics
Mr Kellogg of cornflakes invention fame, designed food products so that consumers would find them so boring and puritanical they would immediately take steps to become celibate. He thought masturbation amongst children was such a bad thing, that he promoted the manufacture of chastity belts to prevent them from touching themselves. (09:50 to 13:49)
Podcast Expo recording
Pushing Back Podcast - grooming
Rationale of Pushing Back podcast is to protect kids from online predators, without quantifying instances of online predator encounters? Rookiee mentions his hoped-for Kinsey-style statistics gathering initiative mentioned in episode 7, to compile statistics such as this. Aqua: no-one has approached me online in such a way to date. From the podcast: “Once a predator identifies a victim, they use a technique called online grooming to trap the child.” Happy: all they have done is choose a dirty word and relate it to paedophiles. This word can also be applied to adults predating other adults. Rookiee gives a further meaning: the moulding of a child by educators and parents alike. The negative connotation is a way of out-casting people from society. (25:35 to 28:54)
Pushing Back Podcast - coercion
From the podcast: “The systematic breaking down of a child’s mental and emotional state is geared to one goal: to meet the child in real life and assault him or her.” The narrator assumes that any sexual activity between an adult and a child is assault. It is assumed therefore that no minor can have sexual feelings whatsoever for another person. Happy: it is hard to believe that the narrator had no sexual feelings up to the age of 17. Rookiee: it is also hard to believe that someone has difficulty recalling their own burgeoning sexuality from puberty onwards. (28:55 to 30:14)
Pushing Back Podcast – porn use
From the podcast. “Perhaps you didn’t also know that the average age of exposure to pornographic material is 11 years old, and the largest consumers of internet pornography are children aged 12 to 17.” Rookiee: children are not aged 17. Aqua: the narrator is clearly reading from a script that someone else wrote. Rookiee would love to have the narrator on Pedologues. This narrator condones and supports vigilantism via PervertedJustice.com, referring to them as noble people. Happy: humans seem to have a basic need to hate others almost at a tribal level. (30:15 to 33:49)
Pushing Back Podcast – commercial porn
From the podcast: “This is the most incredible concept I have ever heard: Targeting kids to move a product that’s not meant for them in the first place. In a nutshell, companies use several tactics to get pornography in front of kids. They use soft porn ads. They use scantily-dressed women and sexual innuendo and videos. They advertise on sites they know kids are going to go to, even if the kids shouldn’t go to them.” Rookiee: The claim that the ads are being pushed on kids is a fallacy. Kids are biologically programmed to want to watch them. The narrator is in denial. (33:50 to 35:04)
Pushing Back Podcast – P2P files
From the podcast: “Peer to peer networks are full of innocently-named files and when you download them, they are pornography.” Rookiee: the narrator is insinuating that the primary source of the pornography is paedophiles, without actually saying it. This propaganda is all about control, and making society fearful so that it restricts the natural development of the child. (35:05 to 37:29)
From the podcast: “File-sharing networks like WinMX or BearShare, a child could search for pictures about batman, and end up downloading pornographic images.” Aqua: its people like the narrator that are trying to get the P2P networks shut down. Renée: but when one is shut down, another pops up. Rookiee: no matter how hard they try to suppress, people will find ways to overcome it. Even the Chinese government cannot stop its people from communicating, especially with the advent of the internet. (37:30 to 41:04)
Pushing Back Podcast – conclusion
Happy: I have never held a grudge against those who are ignorant, and that podcast narrator is ignorant. If you ever want to know the truth about something, just peel back the layers of deceit, brainwashing and propaganda, essentially everything you have learnt since you were born, and look logically at it for what it really is. Rookiee: George Carlin once said that the reason why the education system in America sucks, is because the people who run and own the country don’t want smart, intelligent critical thinkers; they want diligent workers and obedient servants. (41:05 to 44:49)
Podcast Expo recording cont
Waffle, goodbyes
Pedologues Episode 9 (20 November 2005) Rookiee, Fallen, Buddy Christ, Amigo, and Howard summary
Introductions
Howard is an on-line writer and his website cerius.org is entitled “A personal statement website on paedophile life and politics.” Website explains who I am, and why I feel the way this issue is handled today is dead wrong. Even some US communities exist that believe children need a healthy attitude towards sexuality, but today’s culture squelches that opinion terribly. Amigo: oppression not confined to the US; it pervades much of the west. (01:30 to 07:04)
Double standards
Fallen: case in Georgia of a 15yo boy marrying a 37yo woman. Work colleagues commented the woman must be the most disgusting person out there. If one swapped the genders, it wouldn’t be such a big deal, so double standards persist. Rookiee: the case of a 14yo involved with his hot 20yo English teacher, and the media saying: Damn, I wish my teacher was like that when I was at school. If they were male, they would be labelled a monster. Another case involved a woman who had sex with teenagers, got a 30-year sentence. Fallen: these are essentially victimless crimes. Taxpayer money to imprison these offenders must be astronomic over that time, and society does not benefit. Howard: not to mention the damage to the boys, from ridicule, or a possible custodial sentence. Two more age-difference cases where the woman was older: Demi Moore and Mary Kay Letourneau. (07:05 to 13:04)
Sex is bad
Buddy Christ: the dynamic of my first intimacy with someone younger was opposite, as I was not the instigator. I tend to acquiesce rather than play a lead role. Rookie: how old were you when on your first experience? Howard: 17yo with woman who solicited me; it was a one-off. No earlier experience due to illegality of such activity. I urgently wanted to lose my virginity by then. How much better if I had been with others willing to teach me, rather than jumping at this ugly bitch on my 17th birthday. (13:05 to 16:44)
Children’s rights
Rookiee: I disagree with those saying children should have no rights. They should have both rights and protections, for example, deciding what to do with their own body. In Mexico 12yo kids in rural areas drive vehicles, so they become an asset within farming communities. In California, legal restrictions mean youth have no clue how to drive until 18. The parallel with a child’s experience of sex is relevant, for example: prevented from having a loving encounter with another human being. George Carlin: “They have to wear helmets for everything except jacking off.” (16:45 to 18:44)
Sexually Transmitted Diseases
Buddy Christian: A reason why society is against teenage sex is STD threat. His mother is in medicine, and observes 17 year-olds already diagnosed with full HIV. When society creates a taboo subject by calling it a social disease, and refuses to educate the young, problems will arise. A virus doesn’t care who it targets; if your defences are down, it will likely attack you. (18:45 to 21:09)
Circumcision I
Buddy Christian: a lot of US males are circumcised, and the fact that glans are exposed 24/7 inevitably makes it less sensitive. Rookiee: mentioned having experience with someone who was uncircumcised. It was evident just how sensitive it can be down there. Amigo: in New Zealand, hardly any male is circumcised. At school, one boy was circumcised, and all his peers were checking him out as it was so unusual. Buddy Christian: How much is a plane ticket to New Zealand? (21:10 to 22:36)
New Zealand consent law
Amigo: New Zealand Reform Act states that a boy can make the decision to have sex at age 12. However, age of consent there is 16. If a boy between 12 and 16 reports an instance of “abuse” more than a year afterwards, there are no grounds for arrest and charging. So, the authorities believe a child of 12 can say yes to sex, but is dissuaded from doing so by law. (22:37 to 24:54)
Outdated laws
Rookiee: As society mores change, laws fail to keep pace. Many US laws are more than fifty years old. Fallen: notes that the constitution has sufficient elasticity for interpretation. Rookiee: When the constitution was written, everyone adhered to the moral code within the bible. Society has since replaced a puritanical lifestyle with a hedonistic one. Sodomy case and the banning of gay marriage in Texas reflect a puritan majority there. Civil rights ought to be based on fairness and equality; it should never be left to the majority vote because minorities will always lose out. Benjamin Franklin: ‘Democracy should be more than two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb.’ The more liberty exists, the more one can fight the popular vote. Buddy Christian: Thomas Jefferson: ‘People who give up liberty for security deserve neither’. Howard: Immigrants came to the US in the first place to escape religious persecution. Rookiee: the rules they established turned out to be more oppressive than the ones they were fleeing from. (24:55 to 31:24)
Circumcision II
Howard: Involved in paedophilia as a political issue for seven years, yet never thought too much about circumcision topic. I now conclude circumcision is a terrible act of torture on a defenceless child, and legalised sexual abuse. Many boys in the US have had their genitals mutilated. The screams that an infant utters during the procedure, tells you they really don’t like it, but that is the only way they can voice their refusal to consent. Society has forgotten why they do it. Religious people say if Jesus did it, we must do it too, so it continues. Medics of course profit, and so claim it is for the child’s own good. Rookiee: the sacred Jewish tradition historically to circumvent male infibulation by Israel’s enemies such as Romans. Howard highlights the resistance to outlawing circumcision. Even his own mother, who agreed to circumcise her son, claims the child feels no pain. She believes it is absolutely fine to chop off the end of an infant’s penis. But for a person to go and gently caress that penis whilst the child experiences pleasure, is a sin worthy of putting someone away forever. Puritan belief: sex solely comprises the missionary-position for procreation. (31:25 to 39:04)
Gay.com story
Howard: a 50 year old guy hooked up and had a conversation in chat room, asking about my chat room bio line: interested in boys. I confirmed yes. The guy was shocked, and asked why a boy would want a man of my age? I replied, an older male has knowledge and wisdom that is very attractive to a boy. The guy said, like ancient Greece? No, like throughout history, but now opposed by a rabidly oppressive culture. He was clearly disapproving, yet I did not back down. I got him to think about the subject in ways he had never done before. After, I felt proud of myself and considered it to be a small act of resistance and activism. Amigo: when you explain your attraction, it is possible to gain some understanding from your listener. (39:05 to 47:44)
Boylover boyhood experiences
Amigo: Knew I was a boylover at 13yo, but also knew I was not gay. All I heard via radio was that boylovers were monsters that hurt children. Gay then meant being into peers and older. Buddy Christian: knew I was attracted to the smaller boys at school, but did not feel I was a stereotypical gay, even though I questioned myself continuously. Fallen: When I was 8, I was attracted to a 7yo neighbour. I really wanted to see him in as little clothing as possible. One day I went up to him and pantsed him; he was in shock, got angry and tackled me. Fallen: By 12 the attraction was fully developed and I had an 8yo friend with benefits. In parallel, I had a huge crush on a girl at school who promptly left the area. Amigo: Girls were the thing up to 12, but recall an experience whilst camping when a peer jumped on me then began to feel me up. I was like ‘get off you faggot!’ A year later, I knew me better, and kicked myself for reacting the way I did. Buddy Christian: I am attracted to red-haired boys. One time a 11yo red-head class mate slept over. He asked whether we could sleep naked, but I said no, probably fearing he had a bigger penis than I did. I kick myself to this day for saying no. Rookiee: When 12 there was a 13yo who was so crushed on me. All my classmates knew he was gay, but I didn’t. Meanwhile I was crushed on an 11yo who was crushed on the 13yo. Piggy in the middle didn’t benefit from this triangle one bit, due to shyness and telling myself I was straight. I also kick myself to this day for lacking courage. (47:45 to 01:02:08)
Being kept ignorant
Howard: I felt ashamed and embarrassed when experiencing erections from 8yo on. I consider that I was sexually molested as a child by having my sexuality denied me, meaning being prevented from learning about my body and how to enjoy it. Instead, I was trained to be ashamed of it, told it was bad, and to cover it up because the book of Genesis said so. At the time, I was locked into that terrible perspective. (01:02:09 to 01:05:36)
Impact of religion
Amigo: What is the impact of religion on US kids in the US? Rookiee: Depends on your location, your situation, your family. Fallen: I have always been in religious schools, and all it does is breed sexual addicts. Rookiee: Whatever you make taboo becomes an obsession. They teach you sex education, then tell you not to do it. Amigo: New Zealand schools are not allowed to teach any distinct religious ideas. Buddy Christian: It would benefit the US if they actually took the Ten Commandments and followed them. (01:05:37 to 01:12:27)
Pedologues Episode 10 (27 November 2005) Rookiee, Just Me, Renée, Boy Story, and Aqua summary
Introductions
Just Me, Renée, Aqua introduced in previous episodes. Boy Story: tuned into SQIR for the first time at the suggestion of my young friend. Amadeus was hosting the show and it just so happens that Amadeus and I share a few acquaintances. I write short stories for Nifty.org. I am the Boy Story featured on that site’s LGBT erotic stories archive. Nifty.org has disclaimers saying you have to be over 18 to read the stories, but in reality, 80% of those that do are under 18. I had a purge of thirty-five members because their profiles explicitly stated they were under 18, or they included no age. The site does not allow rape or snuff stories. (01:25 to 12:39)
Boy Story’s story.
First realised I was into boys when I was 19. I was a ‘professional’ young friend, in other words, a slut, up to the age of 16, and went with older guys. When 16, I hooked up with a boy lover, and during our conversations, he said to me, you are really into younger guys, aren’t you? To which the response was: well yes, I am. (12:40 to 14:04)
What is boylove?
Rookie: so he introduced to the world beyond just sex ... how would you define that world? Boy Story: essentially bettering the life of the boy, whether helping him with his homework, or instilling a sense of values, or increasing his self-esteem. There is a difference between the words values and morals. Values: be respectful of yourself and of others; be careful of what you do and how it affects others. Morals: a dogma taught to us by society which has a degree of merit, but is mostly bullshit. Historically, boy love has been around for eons. When a boy has no inclination towards sex, doesn’t mean to say you cannot form a relationship with him. Two types of attraction towards boys: boylovers and boyfuckers. The latter group cannot come close to calling themselves boylovers. (14:05 to 18:19)
Five love languages
Renée: like me and my adult friend when I was 11 and he was 36. There was nothing sexual between us until I was older, but he was there for me in many aspects of my life early on. Five love languages: quality time, acts of service, gifts, words of affirmation, physical touch. I took a love languages course before being allowed to get married. Unfortunately, my ex-husband had physical touch at the top of his list, and I had quality time as my priority, so conflicts arose. I try to practise that with my two young friends, but communicating with them online makes this difficult. Rookie: what is the love language they use for the adult? Renée: it depends because you find out every child is different, that is if you make the effort to listen. For children younger than say, five, they have not developed the concept of the five languages. Even up to seven years old, their personality is not yet fully formed. (18:20 to 23:09)
Demarcating AoA
Rookiee: in discussion with guys into really young children, I would ask: What would you really do with someone that young? I would draw the line maybe at 9yo from a sexual attraction perspective, but for younger, the interest would be passive although I might find them cute. Boy Story: in discussion on this topic, the age of consent laws are the worst ever written. Renée: the media always focuses on the bad stories concerning molestation, and never portrays the good side of child love. (23:10 to 26:46)
Someone to trust
Aqua: long-distance relationship when I was 11 and he was 21. He was a really nice person and would do anything for me, but ended up pursuing other people. The fact that I was able to open up to him and discuss pretty much anything was good. Just Me: I have had similar young friends who turn to me for the very same reasons as Aqua stated. One boy was able to contact me when his home situation got really bad, and I would pick him up and was there for him as listener. (26:47 to 31:54)
Conflict with religion
Just Me: I studied in a seminary to become a priest, but then left. I have been through the paradox between my faith and the potential evil and intolerance the church symbolises within the child love community. Rookie: playing the Devil’s Advocate: some might say, as a religious leader, you should know better than to represent an agency that broadcasts a ‘homosexuality is wrong’ mantra. Just Me: age is never mentioned in the bible, and homosexuality was introduced from the King James version onwards. Rookiee: age of consent is a recent invention. Just Me: in the time of Jesus, one could marry at 12 years old. The excuse used to get round that fact is that morality has advanced since then, but at the same time other cultures retain that morality. Renée: just because the US thinks itself better than anyone else, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s true. (31:55 to 39:34)
Sociology versus Biology
Rookiee: historically, life expectancy was half of what it is today, so marriage would have to happen at a much earlier age. Just Me: maybe as we are living longer and the decision to raise a family is being put back further, so children are being born to older parents. Rookiee: perhaps social aspects of our society are becoming misaligned with our biological aspects. Our bodies are telling us to do something that is well ahead of what is now socially acceptable. Boy Story: in addition, children are entering puberty several years earlier than historically. (39:35 to 41:48)
Waffle
Cry for help.
Boy Story received an email from a 15yo boy commenting on a Nifty.org erotic story called Gabriel, a 15yo fictional character who meets someone in a chat room, and decides to meet this person. The email correspondent who is gay, said Gabriel’s story really touched him. He lives in a house with a conservative rabidly anti-gay father and an acquiescent mother. His father gives him tips on how to get girls. He knows he will be kicked out of the house and excommunicated if ever his parents discover his true sexuality identity. He says he really wishes he wasn’t gay and could make his father happy. The only gay outlet he has is Nifty.org. At school, he has to put up with his peers who revel in their homophobia. His email continues for another sixteen paragraphs. (47:30 to 50:38)
Youth support
Renée: a YMCA set up for the gay and lesbian youth in my town, run by people who understand what kids go through. They have their own Pride parade. Aqua: really no outlet or support where I live. It is made difficult because as soon as an older guy appears on the scene, the support becomes evil. Boy Story: ten years ago, I did voluntary unpaid Los Angeles gay and lesbian youth counselling, providing advice to teens. However, it was perceived by the parents that as I was in my thirties providing advice to teens, I was there for an ulterior motive. The director broke the news, so I resigned. That was a let-down for me, because I really enjoyed the work. At no point did I communicate my attraction for boys within that agency or when chatting to the teens. The teens trusted me sufficiently to confide their problems, knowing that I would not come on to them. (50:39 to 01:02:18)
Pedologues Episode 11 (28 November 2005) Rookiee, Jason, and Boy Story summary
Introductions
Jason: I am 15 and on the show because I know a guest from the previous show, plus I want to start a boylover revolution. Rookiee: how are you going to do that? Jason: communicate the fact with everyone you know. (01:42 to 03:59)
Crossing the line
Rookiee: what is a boylover? Jason: someone who cares about boys, who finds them attractive, but doesn’t act upon their desires. Kissing and cuddling is fine, but once you get into their pants, it becomes a problem because a line is crossed. Rookiee: are you worried about getting into the pants from a legal or moral perspective? Jason: I am referring to an innocent boy here. Boy Story: at what point can they know they want to do something, and at what point can they know it would be OK to do something? Jason: they have to know what they are getting into. (04:00 to 06:37)
Little boy lover
Jason: I am into boys aged 3 to 7. Rookiee: being into 9 plus, I don’t see how a relationship with such a young age range can bring anything at all. Jason: maybe because I am still young myself, plus at that young age they are not so adversarial. I am into the emotional aspect rather than the physical. Age of attraction is not a fixed thing; one can still be attracted to older boys in certain circumstances. Rookiee: aware of a person who is essentially asexual because empathetic pleasure trumps physical attraction for them. Jason: and then there is the domain of fetishism. (06:38 to 11:29)
Is paedophilia a fetish?
Rookiee: How do you define a fetish? I know of a couple who have about 150 wigs, and the wife has to wear a wig for the guy to get an erection. Boy Story: a sexuality classification occurs when a significant percentage of a population have a physiological response to a given stimuli. If you showed an image of a nude adolescent male to a large sample of men, a significant proportion of them would become aroused. Such a large response indicates a discrete sexual attraction, not a fetish. Rookiee: Kinsey investigated human sexuality and devised a Kinsey scale from 0 to 6, where zero was no attraction, and six was full attraction. (11:30 to 13:59)
GL v BL friction
Rookie: noticed animosity between a minority of girl lovers and boy lovers within the online community, claiming they are not alike. The majority have no problem and believe the two factions goals are the same. Both communities should be channelling their efforts into mentoring children regardless of what gender the child happens to be, in every aspect of their lives. (14:00 to 16:24)
Born gay?
Jason: do you believe you were born gay or have you learnt it along the way? Boy Story: Jason, when did you realise you were gay? Jason: 12. Rookiee: there is a difference between homosexual and gay. Gay is a lifestyle; homosexual is your sexual orientation. There is also a difference between paedophile and boylover. In answer to your original question, my realisation that I was into boys slowly evolved between 10 and 12. Boy Story: at around 5 years old I realised I wanted to be around males, not females. I believe prior to puberty or before one’s first sexual experience, it is unlikely a child will even comprehend the concept of sexual attraction. (16:25 to 26:09)
Learning about sex
Rookiee: what age did you learn about sex? Jason: at age 8. I heard noise from my parent’s bedroom and thought my mother was being beaten up, so I opened their door and walked in on them. My father shouted at me to leave the room, but I started crying and he came out to console me. He then gave the lowdown on the birds and the bees. Rookiee: the earlier children learn about sex, the more they will be able to deal with related events as they grow older. However, warnings of stranger danger make it difficult for older people to teach this subject to children. Boy Story raises the topic of the counselling work he did in Los Angeles, and which he talked about in episode 10, when he was perceived by parents to be a threat to the kids he was giving advice to, because of stranger danger fear. The advice he gave, is now being given by student peers, no older than 16. (26:10 to 31:29)
Consent age minefield
Rookiee: society is more accepting of gay youth. Even so, a rocky path awaits all mutually attracted kids. 13yo plus 13yo is acceptable, but 16yo plus 12yo – can’t do that. Recalls in high school a teacher telling a 17yo plus 18yo, you two can’t have sex because you will go to jail. Boy Story: a high school couple, the guy at 15 was eight months older than the girl. The girl’s parents didn’t like the boy. The couple were sexually active up to the point the boy turned 18. Thereafter each time the boy came over, the parents recorded the fact the couple made love. Four months later the boy was arrested and charged with more than thirty counts of statutory rape. His sentence was 25 years to life, with no parole. (26:10 to 36:19)
Define rape
Boy Story: California law: child molestation charges levied below the age of 14. Between the ages of 14 and 18, illegal intercourse charges levied – it used to be called statutory rape. Females cannot be charged with rape, so it is a one-way crime; no convictions have occurred in the US. Rape: the unwanted act perpetrated by a male on a female. (36:20 to 40:19)
Define child
Boy Story: anyone who is attracted to a child, no matter how one defines child, is a paedophile. By California society’s norm, that means any one under the age of consent. Rookiee: but increasingly news stories report about sex crimes against children between the ages of 12 and 17. But a 17yo is not a child. Boy Story: they are in the eyes of the law. Society says that a child younger the age of 14 does not have the mental wherewithal to consent. I personally think that that is bullshit. Such crimes rank at a higher level of felonious activity. Rookiee: if we are to make any progress, we really have to clarify terms. (40:20 to 45:46)
Information age
Rookiee: Society has come a long way since before the industrial revolution when interpersonal communication prevailed, boys were part of the labour force, and there were no age of consent laws. Some claim we are well beyond the machine age and even beyond the computer age, both of which promoted impersonal communication. We are now entering the information age, and it may just be that the social pendulum swings back to the way things were prior to the industrial age. (45:47 to 54:04)
Pedologues Episode 12 (3 December 2005) Rookiee, and Boy Story summary
Waffle
Why Pedologues?
Boy Story: what made you decide to do these podcasts? Rookiee: main reason is that my life was shaping up to fall short of attaining its full potential. I cannot legally enjoy my sexuality because of the status quo forced upon me by society, and that situation has the potential to cause me a nervous breakdown. Earlier this year I contemplated suicide. This led to several months of introspection and an effort to change the course of my life, which wasn’t going in any direction. I was pissed off, and me and Abraxas decided to do these deep conversation podcasts. (05:25 to 10:09)
Reason for question
Boy Story: I asked you the question for a reason, and the answer I got was pretty much as expected. I think yours is a common problem for people of our ilk. Some adjust their lives by going out and molesting. Others adjust by going out and doing something positive about their situation. Rookiee: since there are so many people out there that are lost and wallowing in their own turmoil, chances are they will take the road to nowhere. I admit, I was headed in the wrong direction, but once I turned 19 and found the internet, that is when I discovered similar people to myself. That is when my life began to change. Boy Story: I can admit to taking the wrong path for part of my life, but somehow I managed to change for the better, and in my case the positive has been shifting the direction of the life of others for the better. That makes me feel I have done the world a great service. (10:10 to 14:18)
Positive correspondence
Rookiee: email received today. They heard my podcast and they realised they weren’t the only one out there. The podcast made them think, and as a result, they don’t feel so alone any more. Boy Story: I mentioned in episode 10, about the correspondence I receive in connection with my Nifty LGB erotic story writing. Several correspondents say they have experienced similar situations and emotional feelings that as portrayed within the stories and can really identify with the characters in the stories. (14:19 to 15:05)
Nifty.org
Inherent criminality
Rookiee: I have noticed some podcasts are taking hits whilst on the air. Free speech is being replaced by what is deemed acceptable. Boy Story: you have to realise our topic is on the fringes of acceptability. Rookiee: people find what we are into and find attractive, inherently criminal and evil. Why? I am not going to hurt anyone. Pre-conceived notions, ignorance, dis-information via the media because it sells copy, etc. Boy Story: some perspective. Fifty years ago there was Joseph McCarthy and the big evil: communism. We are the modern-day communists. Human societies have always had their witch hunts, and right now our community is living in a police state. People are being frowned upon, simply for having friendships. Rookie: a culture of fear. (19:20 to 22:32)
Reporting a paedophile
Boy Story: If I told you I lived close to a school, and stood on a corner watching the kids as they leave. There was one cute kid I was attracted to, and tomorrow I intended to take him to my apartment and molest him, what would you do? If it was me, without a doubt, I would turn me in. Rookiee: it all depends on the person’s intentions. Boy Story: we are talking about an 8 or 9yo here, and I am determined to take him to bed. I would report me immediately in this situation. Rookiee: right now, our whole community is being turned in. Boy Story: society has a habit of generalising. Back in the seventies when I was a young friend, homosexuals were labelled child molesters. We all know that is bullshit. It took some effort on the part of the gay community at that time to distance itself from the stigma. (22:33 to 24:44)
NAMBLA
Boy Story: I bought into the hype at the time when NAMBLA was formed as a distinct entity quite separate from the homosexual community. I came to believe the phrase ‘sex by eight or it’s too late’ was a tenet of NAMBLA, when in reality it came from another organisation: The René Guyon Society. NAMBLA from what I know promotes boylove in its purest form. Rookiee: I was also under the impression NAMBLA was an organisation all about getting kids into bed. Society helped this notion along by creating negative parodies, such as the skit in South Park. Even I fell into the trap of being led to believe the propaganda. (24:45 to 28:59)
CL community rift
Rookie: I mainly discuss boylover-related topics. I don’t know many girl-lovers, but that shouldn’t stop me from talking about it. What I am noticing is a growing rift between the two communities. Boy Story: what we should recognise is that we are all child lovers, and that we are all experiencing the exact same prejudices. If anything, boy lovers are subjected to way-more prejudice due to the homosexual dimension. Rookiee: David Riegel is of the view that the two communities are so different that boy lovers should focus exclusively on boy love issues. First, there are insufficient of us to effect change. Second, united we stand, divided we fall. Boy Story: change starts with a small number of people taking the initiative, like the black community in the southern US. I can only hope more than just the child love community listens to Pedologues. Rookiee: previous podcast attempts have resulted in being closed down because of the perceived questionable, offensive content. (29:00 to 33:42)
Homosexual community rift
Boy Story: we have been discussing the mainstream prejudices afflicting the child-lover community. However, we also have to put up with negative sentiment coming from the much of the adult homosexual world too. I got into a prolonged fight on Nifty.org with an individual who identifies as gay and who enjoys the company of 18+ males, as to whether paedos should be allowed to write stories on the site. I asked: what age is appropriate to you? ‘18’ was the response. Why? ‘Because it is the law’. And if the law said 12, would that be acceptable? ‘Yes’ was the response. I told him, if that is what you truly think, then I hope you never have sex with anyone. (33:43 to 35:32)
Repression and fear
Boy Story: if governments increase repression, they simultaneously increase fear. US society as a whole is significantly more oppressed than at any time since it was first created. We can’t do half of the things it was once perfectly fine for us to do. When I grew up, we never locked our doors. No-one thought twice about a 7 or 8yo boy setting off from home and walking to the mall on his own. This 180 degree change has not been brought about by the sudden appearance of child lovers. There is likely to be just as many as before, but due to the discrimination heaped upon them today, they maintain a closeted profile. (35:33 to 39:46)
Podcast feeback
Rookiee: some people might accuse us of having a criminal conversation. Boy Story: but we are exercising our first amendment right to have a discussion on topics that just happen to focus on illegal acts. Rookiee: has encountered podcast criticism classifying him as a white supremacist claiming that paedophilia is hate speech. On the other side of the coin, he has also received supportive feedback from correspondents who are not part of the community. Receiving such support means that the podcasts are worth the effort. (39:47 to 45:35)
Podcast benefits
Boy Story: Aqua’s wish was to change the world, but I would be ecstatic if, through my podcast contribution, I managed to change the minds of only a few to the benefit of our community. I have been a boy lover since 1979, consciously knowing that I am attracted to boys. Had there been a resource like this available from the early 1980s, just think what a change that could have wrought over that time. I know of several boy lovers who, over twenty years and more, have never had any contact with boys due to the status quo. (45:36 to 47:58)
Wherewithal to consent
Rookiee: there is no way I could achieve gratification in the knowledge that a sexual encounter with a minor had been anything less than mutual. Boy Story: repeat question from earlier episodes, at what point does a child have the wherewithal to consent? Rookiee: a variable number that can never be quantified due to the arbitrary nature of the level of maturity versus the age of that child. (47:59 to 50:29)
Perceived intent
Rookie: when I was at the Portable Media Expo, I saw someone who was really damn cute on two occasions, and I whispered that fact into the microphone which was then broadcast within episode 8. I was then accused on the forums of stalking. Boy Story: only goes to show that people will bend reality to confirm their prejudices. Rookiee: if anyone else from any other sexual persuasion said that about anyone else, it would have been perfectly fine. If I had said I like a man in uniform – perfectly fine. If I had said I like a schoolboy in uniform – chaos. They are automatically assuming my intent, even if my intent was positive, they would construe it negatively. Boy Story: I recall when in cub scouts aged 9, a 20’s something scout told me I looked good in my uniform. People back then would think nothing of such a comment. Rookiee: someone, who was a youth counsellor, nearly got fired for commenting how cute a boy looked while asleep, implying the little darlings are now asleep, so we can at last have some peace and quiet. Boy Story: and yet it is fine for people to comment on how adorable a child looks. (50:30 to 56:54)
Pedologues contact details
Pedologues Episode 14 (30 December 2005) Rookiee, Boy Story, Ashley, Jack (SQIR), and Chubby summary
Jack's message
Thank you Rookiee for making episode 12 in a public space - a restaurant. I heard about the Xmas podcast taken off because of “offensive material”. You are exercising your first amendment right to free speech. That is what is great about America where we can exercise our rights, so long as it doesn’t infringe upon the rights of people, or break any other laws. Your comment about our culture being enslaved by fear is true, and I think that fear comes from the media. The opinions of broadcaster such as Fox and CNN create a pull on people, especially at election time. The accusation of you stalking a boy at the Portable Media Expo, just demonstrates how unstable people can be if everything they see or hear has a sexual intention. (00:00 to 03:37)
Waffle
Bibcam boy
New York Times article about a boy that had been doing bibcams since he was 13 years old. Bibcam boy is a boy posing or stripping online. He made thousands of dollars from people paying for his recordings. He had roughly 1500 customers by the end. Boy Story: he started off in chatrooms. One correspondent said he would give him twenty dollars to take off his shirt. The correspondent set up a PayPal account for him, and introduced other punters, which then progressed from taking off his shirt, to no clothes, to masturbating, to having sex with others on camera. It was not prostitution, because the punters were voyeurs. Rookiee: I have no problem with that from a moral perspective. (08:02 to 12:49)
Double standards
Rookiee: a 13yo and a 10yo recently got busted for entering someone’s house and stealing items. The article called them young children. The 13yo is not a child; he is a teenager. The article used spin to give the story more sensationalism. Boy Story: the legal system in some instances, try 10 and 11yo children as if they were adults. (08:02 to 14:45)
Introductions 1
Boy Story: from episodes 9 and 10. Ashley: 31yo heard of SQIR through Pedologues, and I heard of Pedologues through boylover.net. Currently working with Boy Story on creating a comic strip called Little Ash, to show pictorially what boy love is about. Rookiee: how far are you going to go with it? Ashley: quite far, but focus will be on the nature of boy love. How did you find out about SQR, Chubby? Chubby: known Geoff Gold since 2002, so known SQR for a year now. I was on Bliss for a few months, then BoyLovers United opened. Aidan Gorey asked me to join, and I was there for two months when he asked me to be a moderator of the main forum of valley of dreams. Problems with the BoyLovers United forum subsequently, meant I decided to step down. In the meantime I have been on various boards and chatrooms, including SQIR. (14:46 to 22:37)
South Africa scene
Rookiee: how does Apartheid and the dynamic of South Africa’s society impact the boylove community in that country? Chubby: the gay community is quite sizeable in the Western Cape and in Cape Town. The age of consent is 16. However, if you are older than 19, it is illegal to have sex with someone younger than yourself, to keep mutual intimacy at the peer level. I have been brought up to be racially pure, so I would never in my heart, be able to have a relationship with a black girl. Boy Story: during the years of segregation in America’s south, racism was taught to white children. The same is true of South Africa. Chubby: agreed. (22:38 to 34:09)
Introductions 2
Jack: Boylinks.net brought me here when they posted the SQIR on their front page in November. I do a podcast – see Jack message above. (34:10 to 36:39)
Parent boylover
Rookiee: I have a friend who is a parent and a boylover. He would never want to see his child behaving sexually towards anyone, even though he is sexually attracted to boys. There is a conflict there because he has an instinctive need to protect his child. Ashley: parents treat their children as if they are property. Chubby: one of my young friends, a boy of 14, arrived home late. The boy’s room was an annex to the main house. His father wondered why his son was late and didn’t stop by to say good night. He went to the boy’s room which was in dark. He told the boy to step into the house for a chat. The father then gave him a talk about AIDs, using a condom, and how dangerous it all is. He added, just remember, you can do what you want, but please protect yourself. Rookiee: to me that sounds sensible and caring. (36:40 to 43:49)
Pedologues Episode 15 (15 January 2006) Rookiee, Jim, and Boy Story summary
Introduction
Jim: My home is Boy Chat. I have been around for ten years doing various projects, the main one is Free Spirits. (00:44 to 01:04)
Boy Chat genesis
Jim: Boy Chat since 1995, was one of the first chat boards and an early web-chat board on the internet. It was developed as pro script by Matt Wright as a teen. From the outside it looks the same as always, but inside it is custom-coded and bullet-proof. It was an informal project on Kasper’s site, but it got too big for him to manage. After several iterations, I took on associate web-master role. Hosted on a Digiweb server, my site FPC hosted on the same server w Boy Links, Boy Right, Freedom Board + assorted other BL resources. (01:05 to 04:49)
Free Spirits
Jim: in 1997, admin said we had 14 days to find a new server. Their policy changed, no longer hosting boy content. Panic. The Web was new, few servers existed. I had my own computer business, took time off to pursue those who could fund plus those with solutions. I rallied the community via Boy Chat. Free Spirits was formed and I chaired the committee. We pulled all boy lover resources together, and paid for them. Our goal: to have our own internet service provider, our own server, and our own independence. For the next year, we jumped from server to server, each time being kicked off. Once our goals were met, I was burnt out. I passed my webmaster role on to others. FPC.net was originally my own website, but this too was incorporated into Free Spirits. It is now run by Kalos. (04:50 to 11:39)
Media experience I
My lover Lenny was older than me and ill. I had been webmaster for a year. A new poster arrived in the Boy Chat community. He asked to meet in New York City where I was based. I agreed. I met him, took him out for drinks and dinner, and we talked. He seemed a reasonable boy lover. I returned to my apartment, and found Lenny was having problems. I took him to hospital, and finally checked him in to a room some hours later. I hadn’t eaten, shaved, or changed. I rang the guy and agreed to meet at his hotel. I phoned him from reception, but it took forever for him to come down. This was an expensive plush hotel, and I looked distinctly scummy. At last the elevator doors opened, and there he is in suit and tie, trailed by a camera crew. The nice guy from Boy Chat was not a boy lover at all, but a TV reporter from Florida. With camera in my face, he asked challenging questions with negative spin. I answered as positively as I could, then left. By the way, whilst together the previous evening, he had a hidden camera plus microphone in his lapel, recording all we discussed. (11:40 to 16:28)
Media experiences II and III
Jim: I was contacted by a major news organisation, maybe ’20 20 tv’, sometime after the Florida TV experience. Wanted to do a story on BC and FS. I spent an hour on the phone with the producer, but nothing came of it. The only other experience was the Bill Moyers show. They did an hour long piece ‘paedophiles on the internet’. The focused on Free Spirits, and made false statements which were libellous. I contacted the producers, and offered to come on the show to debate the things they had said, but they declined. Clearly, they didn’t want anyone pointing out the blatant falsehoods. (16:29 to 19:59)
Child advocates
Jim: ‘child advocates’ is a misnomer; they are really in it for self-glory. Rookiee: an advocate should have professional credentials. Rookiee then raises the Wikipedia editing topic discussed in episode 7, and the political bias creeping into the content of Wikipedia entries. (20:00 to 23:59)
Being outed I
Rookiee: vigilante case regarding the site rikijo.blogspot.com with title ‘alt.hackers.malicious the war against NAMBLA’. The site began by outing NAMBLA members, but expanded its operation to include any boy lover. They targeted a 14yo boy attracted to his peers and younger. Jim: just devastating that it happens, and so often. Important for young boy lovers to be outspoken and to communicate, but we must watch out for them and inform them of the dangers. This kid was outed from the personal details on his website. Youngsters can be vocal, but they also have to be careful. Rookiee: agree completely. The boy was attracted to a 12yo, and for that he was outed as a predator. Who is the predator here? (24:00 to 28:26)
Being outed II
Jim: I recall a case ten years ago when a young teen boy lover on Boy Chat was outed in a similar way. His web page was up, and links led to links. It was easy to figure out his identity. The police got involved and the kid was sentenced to youth detention and mandatory therapy. His teen years turned into a nightmare. That is just one example of so many I know. There are dozens more vigilantes out there reveling in the ruination of others. (28:27 to 34:15)
Gay youth
Jim: it is really important to bring gay youth together, people who love love, but we have to do it responsibly. If we just get burnt, no progress will be made. All we will have done is screwed up a bunch of lives. We have to strategize, plan and know what we are doing. Rookiee: the more gay youth get involved, the bigger the hole punched into the stereotype: ‘paedophilia is the domain of a bunch of old male predators’. Jim: we must educate gay youth to keep their boy love life separate from all other stuff. (34:16 to 38:59)
Media-supported vigilantism
Jim: in the case of the 14yo, it would be ironic if the vigilante got the wrong kid. Rookiee: what this vigilante was doing was not criminal. However, he could be sued for libel as he is defaming people for what they say, not what they do. Jim: I read my local paper and a child molestation story is reported: ‘so and so admitted to a specific action, so and so admitted to the crime of paedophilia’, as if having those feelings was itself a crime. (39:00 to 40:14)
Sexual orientation construction
Jim: hot topic on Boy Chat of late: maybe it is not a good idea to categorise sexual identity. Isn’t it better to live in a world and just love people for what they are? Rookiee: but we need to self-identify as a community. Jim: it’s only when you add the construction that a dilemma arises. How would we find support, plus a sense of community, without self-identity. Yet, the very construction of an identity creates problems. If the concept of boy love didn’t exist, would the hysteria be nearly as high? Some would say no. When I was a young gay teen, the concept of boy love wasn’t a category. I was termed chicken hawk as part of the gay construct. (40:15 to 43:19)
Sexual orientation changes
Jim: I have been struck chatting with younger boy lovers, how attraction changes over time. No-one stays the same. Rookiee: the community should refrain from claiming their own age of attraction trumps everyone else’s. If that happens, fractures will develop, and the mainstream will jump on that weakness. Jim: my ideal society, perhaps not perfect, would be one where sexual orientation really didn’t matter. If that were to happen, many of us would not be so focused on age of attractions. (43:20 to 46:31)
Unachievable fulfilment
Jim: on Boy Chat, many express concern that they will never be able to attain fulfilment. In the absence of romantic love, they overtly focus on this fear, and ignore the myriad other aspects of life to be enjoyed. Someone who does not suffer societal condemnation, is free to appreciate everything around him. Rookiee: by discriminating, society has managed to create a whole group of inward-looking suppressed individuals who have ceased to function effectively. The way sexuality is dealt with in Western societies is quite flawed. (46:32 to 49:04)
Arabic boylove poetry
Jim: have you ever read Arabic poetry from the Middle Ages? Absolutely gorgeous. There was a time in certain parts of the Muslim world, when love of boys was considered a very high ideal. Even though homosexuality is frowned upon by Islam, there have been epochs when it was celebrated. Rookiee: I am intrigued. (49:05 to 50:04)
Syndication
Rookiee speaks about online syndication, and the need for a single portal providing a central reference point for boy lovers. Jim: what is syndication? I can’t see how this concept differs from what is already available, for example Boy Lover Links and Boy Links. What is more important, is concentrating on content, and improve the things we fail to do well, like presenting information. (50:05 to 56:12)
Define boy lover
Boy Story: what makes a boy lover a boy lover? Jim: of all the definitions I have come across, the one put forward by Alexis is probably the best. ‘A boy lover is a person who tends to fall in love with boys.’ Rookiee: what is your definition of a boy? Jim: I prefer not to limit myself to definitions. Rookiee: Kinsey said it best, we are all different. Boy Story: I am chatting to a new boy lover, and I tried to define what boy love is. In my mind, boy love is having such a love of younger males whereby you place their needs for love, companionship and nurturing, ahead of your own. Jim: to an extent I would agree, but I wouldn’t restrict such a definition to selfless love, because sometimes one makes mistakes, so it doesn’t always work out that way. (56:13 to 59:34)
No ideal boy lover
Rookiee: Boy love is an ideal we need to work up to. Jim: no, I don’t agree. Rookiee: Well, a boy lover is not a child molester. To educate the general public, we need to define what a boy lover isn’t. Jim: by who’s definition? I reject the notion that an ideal boy lover exists with boundaries beyond which someone is not a boy lover. If a boundary is something he did wrong, then that doesn’t mean he loses his boy lover status. Love is important, beauty is important, and should be celebrated. Does it really matter what gender a person is, or what age a person is? No. (59:35 to 01:06:39)
Pedologues Episode 16 (30 January 2006) Rookiee, Joe Power, Jeffrey Gold, Jack, and Boy Story summary
Introduction
Joe Power: a member of NAMBLA’s steering committee for twenty years. I get to speak for the organisation. I am a jack of all trades there. Jeffrey Gold introduced in episode 5 from Sure Quality Internet Radio (SQIR). Jack (SQIR DJ) introduced in episode 14. (00:48 to 02:50)
Activism decline
Rookiee: hard to contact a NAMBLA person. Is that due to closing ranks? Joe: early on, more people involved when NAMBLA was New York based. With time, we failed to maintain an activist core. The laws have changed too. We protested outside a prison once, but these days not possible. We also face a lawsuit. Now we inform about world events as part of the boy love ethos. (02:51 to 05:54)
Hypocritical gay establishment
Joe: around 1978, NAMBLA activists were enamoured of older teens, but did not create boundaries. Rather they assessed the philosophy of sexuality. The social landscape has since become very repressive. Gay organisations too rejected the gay youth concept to increase chances of obtaining funds. That stance now haunts them, given the burgeoning generation of gay youth. Now difficult to promote their old mantra: ‘no, no, no, you are asexual and have to wait till 18’. (05:55 to 09:21)
Paedophile pride
Rookiee: Aqua, in a previous episode, laments nothing for gay youth locally in the way of support and socials. Even pride events are 21 plus, with zero gay youth present. Difficult to belong when your AoA is 8 plus. Jeffrey: stop being apologists and start promoting paedophile pride. If not we will continue to be divided. Joe: unfortunately, the word was adopted by our enemies to hate us. Boy Story: all boy lovers are paedophiles, but not all paedophiles are boy lovers. Ask what a paedophile is out here, and they will say: someone who is attracted to kids. Rookie: but then, how do we define ‘kid’? In most places it is up to 18. We need a basis for a conversation. Jeffrey: we also need a basis for a movement instead of arguing over semantics, and to move the hell on. In so many forums people attack NAMBLA, and that is not right. (09:22 to 19:46)
Education is key
Rookiee: is the goal of NAMBLA to get in bed with children? Joe: No. Our goal is to formulate a rational approach to sexuality, and to make laws conform to man boy sexuality. We need a strong philosophical underpinning for our opinions and desires. So long as society equates paedophilia with lust, we will be open to attack. Jeffrey: education is key. We have to teach children and society what paedophiles are, both good and bad. Rookiee: how do we educate? Jeffrey: communicate responsible paedophilia by dropping leaflets discretely in public places. Nobody has done that so far. (19:47 to 27:54)
Public relations
Rookiee: NAMBLA’s use of the internet is lacking. The website has hardly changed. Why? Joe: a lack of will, activism, and resources limits us to the philosophical realm at the expense of online support. NAMBLA, like the gay Mattachine Society formed in 1950, may well evaporate in time. Jeffrey: the addition of a blog on the site might increase interest. Jack: do you have lobbyists in DC? Joe: no. Jack: are there any senators on board? Joe: there a few pro civil liberties, but all I see is two parties trying to see who can pass the toughest laws. Jack: so NAMBLA is losing ground over time? Joe: yes. (27:55 to 40:58)
1980s debacle
Rookiee: NAMBLA busts, raids, meetings where LEA or FEDs present, NAMBLA members falling for sting in Mexico with boy prostitutes. What’s going on? Joe: boy lovers meeting prior to the internet was such a cathartic experience, guards slipped and members became vulnerable. We did create legal funds to be used when a rare positive outcome in court might benefit the most people. We have a prisoner support project promoting pen-pal initiatives. (40:59 to 45:45)
Sex offender register
Rookiee: once sex offender inmates leave prison, they are not allowed to locate other released offenders via SORs. Released prisoners need support too, because very little exists on the outside. Joe: I would defend NAMBLA by saying who else supports prisoners? (45:46 to 50:17)
Membership I
Jack: does NAMBLA have meetings? Joe: activists do, yes. Jeffrey: how many members exist? Joe: a few hundred, with about a dozen activists. We have wondered whether we should up sticks and away, having given it our best shot. We are too tired to go on, and too scared to quit. (50:18 to 52:41)
Bulletins
Joe: invite you to look at any of the bulletins produced over the last five years. Rookiee: I think I have only seen one from the 1980s. Why not produce a free issue and place it on your website as a pdf? Joe: we are trialling this idea currently. Jeffrey: I am holding the latest bulletin right now; it is wonderful. Rookie: a mailed bulletin is not secure; it has your address on it, and can be picked up and opened. Jeffrey: people ask why I put my voice and my photo out daily on SQIR. I tell them I have nothing to hide. A lot of the fear and paranoia in the boy love community is misplaced. (52:42 to 57:07)
Lawsuit
Joe: speaking as someone who is currently being sued for several million dollars, some of the paranoia is justified. Jeffrey: what is the charge? Joe: civil case relating to the Curley murder in Massachusetts. The claim: NAMBLA incited the murderer to commit the crime because a bulletin was found in the murderer’s car. The American Civil Liberties Union represented NAMBLA due to the issue of censorship of unpopular speech about sexuality. It succeeded on getting the suit dismissed. The family continued their suit against individual members insisting NAMBLA hand over membership lists. We have declined to do this. (57:08 to 01:02:20)
Controlling members
Joe: many problems arose from newbie members socialising post-meeting. They shot their mouths off to disguised LEA. Rookiee: whilst running the Pedologues project, I live the life of a monk. Joe: the long-standing members are still around because they live like monks. That’s fine now, but after ten years being a monk? Impossible to enforce policy once they go their own way. Jeffrey: on SQIR, listeners hear the music, but between songs or DJ chat, a serious message is broadcast, causing the listener to pause and think. Rookiee: NAMBLA should lay down rules and emphasise disclaimers. (01:02:21 to 01:17:41)
Divulging membership
Jack: given the news articles stating members being caught, for example the Mexico sting, how do folk know they are NAMBLA members? Do you divulge the list to the authorities? Joe: no. In that specific case, the LEA officers were at the NAMBLA meeting originally. (01:17:42 to 01:19:24)
Laws unfit for purpose
Rookiee: I don’t support people visiting boy prostitutes, not that I have a moral objection to consensual sex with 12yo boys. Joe: on the other hand, if he has no customers, he starves. Jeffrey: no-one here is seriously advocating child prostitution; unfortunately, courts do not consider that distinction. Cases where two people within a legal age span have been prosecuted for filming their sexploits. Rookiee: one case where a 13yo was prosecuted for taking pictures of himself. Joe: laws are always slower than society to change, plus they are a very poor fit for human sexuality. We need to protest the laws, and recommend a better fit. (01:19:25 to 01:23:17)
Misconceptions
Rookiee: ‘paedophiles are unable to control their desires and will act upon them, regardless of the child needs.’ The public perception: ‘paedophiles are dangerous’. We need to convince others this is not the case. Jeffrey: same as in Kinsey’s day; anyone doing on-topic research is censured, or ignored by legislators. Boy Story: when arrested for having an online conversation in 1997, police came, searched my house and found NAMBLA paperwork. They questioned me for many hours about my evident association. NAMBLA needs to change its image. Rookiee: the NAMBLA website needs to be more productive. Joe: we recognise the importance of the internet, but the website guys and the bulletin production are separate with limited overlap. (01:23:18 to 01:33:29)
Membership II
Jeffrey: SQR will likely become a subscribing member. Jack: you really want to associate with NAMBLA? Jeffrey: we are in partnership with NAMBLA’s Peter Herman and Roy Radow. We have a one minute ad that airs on SQR regularly with other projects in the works. Rookiee: risk of backlash? Jeffrey: too bad. They are a fine organisation; we support them 100%. It is time we got angry, but be quick, as freedom to even speak is becoming curtailed. Right now we can speak, albeit whilst giving ourselves up as martyrs to the cause. Those that would just sit on their heels, I have nothing but contempt for. It is high time we educated rather than hide our heads in the sand. (01:33:30 to 01:45:15)
Gay youth perspective
Rookiee: the younger generation of boy lovers sees NAMBLA as old-fashioned; they have misconceptions of it. Joe: a diverse boy love resource world is positive, as it enables choice. Jeffrey: but we are trying to alter the public’s perception of our community. Unfortunately, the only credible resource to the public is NAMBLA, so support them. Boy Story: one thing NAMBLA could do for the boy love community is to add links to other resources on its web page. Joe: because of past denial of service attacks; others resources came under attack too. (01:45:16 to 01:50:50)
Jeffrey’s story
Jeffrey: when I was a 14yo in 1981, NAMBLA was the first boy love resource I found. I had no idea how to contact them back then. It was a tremendous joy to my heart when I heard there was an organisation out there. I say to everyone who is listening, please, let us support our grandfather in his old age. (01:50:51 to 01:51:43)
Pedologues Episode 17 (20 February 2006) Rookiee, C Chan, Jack summary
Waffle
Introduction
C Chan: when I first heard Pedologues, I could not believe someone was actually discussing such a topic. It was a combination of shock and relief at the same time to hear someone voicing the things that I feel. Rookiee: you heard of Pedologues through Freenet? C Chan: a link was placed by someone on Freenet discussing censorship. (04:40 to 05:49)
Waffle
Discriminatory sentencing
C Chan: in the old days, I was really only interested in games and programs. I was totally wares-centric. Rookiee: isn’t it odd that people can openly talk about trading wares, marijuana, and all these different things, but you can’t mention the cp deal without fearing the consequences. C Chan: Two very different outcomes would result. In the former case, I would spend about a year inside, then become a hero upon release and get a job in a large software company. In the latter case, I would face a very lengthy sentence inside prison with the risk of being murdered, and upon release be ostracised forever. Jack: one could move to Europe post fact. Rookiee: the law may soon deny offenders that option too. (11:36 to 15:24)
Waffle
Jack’s story
Rookie: you’ve always told me that the cute and cuddly aspect of a boy attracts you, not the physical side. Jack: for five years I was in military school, where I didn’t see girls or socialise much. In high school, I would prefer to hang out with young teens rather than my peers. My mother thought I was sexually attracted to little boys. She found some legal pictures and over-reacted. Later on I discovered girls. (18:24 to 22:58)
Censuring intimacy
Rookie: I have mentioned this before, but I would rather be with a blond-haired, blue-eyed boy than a woman of my age. I have never been with a child before, since it is illegal and unacceptable to society. Even if the opportunity presented itself, it could end up in disaster and ruin both our lives. It is perceived as a bad thing, so it ends up being a bad thing, even though it is not. That is why I am doing this show. Do you think it is a good idea to be with a boy? Jack: no. Rookiee: I have heard someone comment that it is a fundamental human right to enjoy intimacy irrespective of age. Social and legal constraints imposed on people, prevent intergenerational communication and intimacy. These constraints run counter to human nature and cause harm. (22:59 to 29:16)
Waffle
Do boys enjoy sex?
Rookie: do I think having sex with a boy is bad? Absolutely not, as long as they know what they are getting into and consenting to it. Jack: do you think it is beneficial for them? C Chan: have to agree that for many boys it is the physical experience; it feels good and they enjoy it. Rookiee: so what is bad about that? C Chan: it doesn’t seem bad to me. Jack: but it can’t be good for them. Rookiee: it depends on the individual boy. These days, boys have so much exposure to sex via the media and via their peers it is likely they will want to experience it. (31:02 to 34:58)
Is sex a problem?
There is no way you can fix age of consent. Jack: what age is acceptable? Rookiee: when puberty hits, between 11 and 14 years old. Jack: so a younger boy would have to be very much at the top of his game to understand sex. Rookiee: sex is a fairly easy concept to understand. Jack: so a 7 years old boy is competent? Rookiee: at that age their personalities are still developing, so I think it is too young. I am not aware of any boy that age would have the urge to behave sexually. Sex in itself is not the problem. Because society has made sex a problem, sex is a problem. Jake: yes. C Chan: the stigma of youth having sex has become more detrimental than youth having sex. (34:59 to 39:54)
Why not naked?
Jack: what if in response to a societal norm, everyone walked around naked? Rookiee: the current societal norm is that the human body is perceived as obscene, and that is why we cover up. Jack: agreed. Why is it like that? Rookiee: cover-up fashions also vary over time. (39:55 to 44:48)
AF responsibility
C Chan: on the topic of life with love or without love, I cannot perceive having sexual relations with a boy in the absence of love. I am talking about man-boy intimacy, not boy-boy intimacy. In the former case, there will be emotional bonding and mutual love, and the man assumes a huge responsibility. If the relationship becomes sexual, the man assumes even more responsibility. Rookiee: I agree. Jack says goodnight at this point. (44:49 to 53:44)
Molding YF’s sexuality
C Chan: such an experience may lead the boy down a path he is not prepared for, for example: a homosexual path. Rookie: how do you know homosexuality will result from this encounter? C Chan: well that is my personal belief because that is the only sexual encounter the boy has had. Rookie: I don’t agree. Perhaps an alternate path rather than a homosexual path is more accurate. A person’s innate sexuality will prevail regardless. The affair with a man may make them more tolerant of homosexuality as they develop. But we are only considering two discrete sexualities here; what about bisexuality, how does that fit in here? Also, I didn’t get to choose my innate sexuality. C Chan: I feel that any sexual experience between a boy and a man will have repercussions for the boy. Most will be good if there is mutual love between the two, but some will be bad and we need to realise that. (53:45 to 58:20)
Boy’s interests paramount
Rookiee: the only way I can see someone having a sexual relationship with a boy who has not yet attained puberty, is that the decision to do so has come from the boy. C Chan: exactly. Rookie: if a 9yo has questions about sexuality, then you do your best to answer him honestly, even though a potential conflict of interest situation exists. C Chan: what if the boy makes it obvious he wants to take it further? Rookiee: if it were completely legal, it would be a no-brainer. C Chan: so we have to be extremely careful how we proceed in our culture, and place the interests of the boy above everything else. (58:21 to 01:04:48)
Boy lover responsibilities
C Chan: a great responsibility and more than I see mentioned in the community. Rookiee: there are a lot of people out there who either can’t see it or don’t respect it, and those are the people who give us a bad name. C Chan: exactly. Rookiee: that is what it comes down to, the relationship between the adult and the child. C Chan: often the child does not have the skills to communicate feelings and thoughts in a coherent way. Rookiee: all we can do is let people know about this important topic. (01:04:49 to 01:11:21)
Pedologues Episode 18 (20 March 2006) Rookiee, Technie, and Aqua summary
Introduction
Hospitalised
Technie: I try to help people. There’s a reason for this. At 6 years old, I was struck with a disease with high temperature. I went into coma and was hospitalised. A young man called Aaron came into my life. He was 16yo and still at school. Whilst in hospital, he took a special interest and tended to me whilst I was in coma. When I came round he was washing me. He saw me open my eyes and smile, and ran down the corridor screaming he’s awake, he’s awake. A week later, braces were fitted and electrodes placed on me to stimulate muscular function and tone. All I can recall is electricity running through my body. Aaron had to leave when this happened because of my screams. (07:20 to 11:27)
Back home
Technie: Three months later I was sent home. My father’s funds to keep me there had run out. Aaron tracked me down and introduced himself to my parents. He said he was there to see how their son was getting on. They said go ahead, we don’t give a fuck. Aaron found me in a crib with a second crib upside down on top to stop me falling out. A neighbourhood kid called James came with Aaron to visit me. James was one year younger than me. He became my best friend. They taught me to squirm around like a snake, using my forearms to make me move. (11:28 to 14:11)
First step
Technie: Aaron used his old car to visit; that’s how he took care of me. One day, I managed to take a first step. I intended to surprise Aaron by showing him what I could do. As they arrived, I attempted three steps but fell face down on the floor and injured myself. They found me covered in blood. My feelings for Aaron and James are what helped me to walk again. No-one since has equaled the unselfish love Aaron gave me. (14:12 to 16:59)
Birthday cake
Technie: Aaron and James were coming over to celebrate a birthday. Aaron said: I have assigned you my birthday, your twelve and a half birthday. We will go to a restaurant. I said: I cannot go. He said: you can go because I am going to be there. You will have your first birthday cake with twelve and a half candles. When the day came I waited and waited, but they never showed. I found out why four days later. They set out, but at a railway crossing, a barrier failed. As they crossed the track, a train hit them and both were killed. I totally withdrew into myself, hating everything and everyone, simply because my Aaron and my James had been taken from me. Two perfectly healthy individuals, and there was me stuck in a chair with braces. When I finally came to my senses, three or four years after, I began to start paying Aaron back for what he had done for me. I have been doing it ever since. So that is why I am the way I am. (17:00 to 19:59)
Marriage and family
Rookiee: so you were married for how many years? Technie: I was married twice. My first wife was 17 and we were together for three years, but she was killed in a car wreck. I was 23. When I married my second wife, she already had three kids. Within two years we adopted sixteen more kids ranging from three months to twelve years; three were girls. Rookiee: why so many? Technie: once we started, we couldn’t stop. These were unwanted kids, disabled kids, even kids in trouble with the law. We had a lot of fun times and a lot of hard times. We took the kids everywhere we went; we had two buses. One child, James, who passed since, was black. While shopping, a big woman approached me and asked: is that your son? I said: most definitely. She said: but he is black! Do you let him eat at your table? I said: no we feed him outside. She said: good, that’s the way you need to treat them. I said: do you know who else is outside? All of us, and we are having a barbecue, and you are not invited. (20:00 to 25:36)
Death
Technie: everyone I have taken care of has been no problem. Dealing with end of life situations can be the most difficult; you must keep constant focus. What happens to your heart when a boy loves you because you are there for him at a time when he thinks everyone is against him, or, when even his own parents don’t come into his bedroom to care for him? For an end of life situation, I tried to teach a child to think that death is not death; it is just an extension to living. My kids are all grown now, those still alive. (29:59 to 32:43)
Divorce
Technie: I travelled a long distance to see my twin brother who I hadn’t seen in sixteen years. Whilst there, my brother and his wife accessed my Yahoo account using a key logger. They discovered my supposed gay ‘other’ lifestyle. They then contacted my wife and broke the news. On the strength of that news, my wife of 34 years sued for divorce, for the sake of her political career and her new social circle. (32:44 to 40:52)
People are unique
Rookie: do you feel there is a difference between being gay and being a boy lover? Technie: every human being on this planet is unique. If I place a label on you, I too can expect to be labelled, so I seek to judge no one. If I did, I would be seeking to control you. (40:53 to 41:59)
Boy Story
Technie: I told Boy Story, you need someone in your life. I am here to help you do that. I cannot be that person because you seek to control. ‘But you cater to my every need.’ I do, but I do not cater for your wants. People do not love me for the real me; they do not look into my eyes to see the mirror of my soul. They do not look at my heart. They only look at what I can do for them. The last time he had a heart attack was 2am. The doctor told me, if it wasn’t for you, there would have been no tomorrow for him. (42:00 to 44:10)
Ashley
Technie: I knew what Boy Story needed. I heard Ashley’s voice on Skype. I asked Boy Story to describe Ashley in detail. I said: that boy has a heart. One day I met Ashley. He asked me, why I am getting so close to Boy Story? I said: you both need each other. Boy Story asked a similar question, and I gave him the same response. The two are a good match because one needs to be controlled; the other seeks to control. Both were in danger if they hadn’t met when they did. Ashley was lonely. His only life was being online in his single room, occasional shopping or visiting his dad. (44:11 to 49:27)
Waffle
What is a boy lover?
Technie: he has to give four things of himself. One: is his head, and I am talking about the thing that keeps his ears apart. Two: is his heart. Three: is his time. Four: is his money. As a paedophile, you see both the physical and emotional beauty of a child, and you nurture him. You tell the child: I am your mentor, your teacher, your counsellor, and your friend. That is all. There is no greater thing I can do for you. If you become intimate with that child, then you give him your life. Is that you want? If you bed with him, he becomes secondarily your young friend, and primarily your lover. You have given that child equal status to yourself. You both have eyes for nothing more than each other. (56:25 to 01:02:04)
Age factors
Technie: is a child capable of having an intimate relationship with a grown man without being adversely affected? Who determines that? It all depends on who that relationship is with. It has nothing to do with chronological age. That is a stigma manufactured by modern society. The risk is: that part of society he hates and that is inside him leads to a wider problem, making you history. Mentor him such that he knows what the risks are. If the child is content with that, then you will both have success. (01:02:05 to 01:05:24)
Philosophy and religion
Authority figures
Rookiee: What is your view of the paedophile priest controversy and the scandal to cover it up? Technie: depends on how far they have gone. Recall the third step: making the child your equal. Rookiee: What is your view of people in authority? The age of consent in Canada is 14, but such people cannot be intimate with 14 year olds. Technie: if you are intimate with a 14 year old and in authority over him, then he becomes your slave. It can only work when the two of you are equal, which may mean having to relinquish the position of authority over him. The same action a lawyer needs to take when taking on known to them. (01:47:33 to 01:51:55)
Parent, teacher, pupil
Technie: with regard to girls and boys, the parents, and their parents, are at fault because they trained you to be not equal. They tell their daughters to keep their legs together no matter what, because innocence will be lost. With little brother, they’ll say, go get it, you scored. Rookiee: more stigma attached to a boy-teacher relationship, than a girl-teacher one. Technie: the ‘gay relationship’ is the problem. In ancient Greece, parents would bring their child to the pederast teacher to be taught male to male about what sex and everything else was all about. It was not frowned upon, but these days it is sexual intercourse with a minor. (01:51:55 to 01:54:02)
Girl love vs. Boy love
Rookiee: is there a difference between girl love and boy love? Technie: yes. Rookiee: David Riegel, a Dutch boy love author, maintains that responsible boy love is distinct from girl love, the latter being premature heterosexuality. Technie: as far as love goes, no difference. As for the reasons for that love, yes, there is a difference. There two communities are different, but neither should forget each other. If they act as one, then can accomplish far more than if kept separate. (01:54:03 to 01:57:59)
Philosophy and religion
Pedologues Episode 19.5 (9 April 2006) Rookiee, Chris, and Fallen summary
Introduction
Fallen present in episode 9. Rookiee: so Chris, thank you for creating our intro music. You are not a boy lover, right? Chris: no, I am open-minded up to a point. The common perception is the term boy lover is equivalent to rapist. Rookiee: why do you think that is? Chris: because society is cruel and stereotypes everything. Fallen: they may as well say that every straight guy will rape a woman, or every gay guy will rape a man. Rookiee: you live in Holland, right? Chris: no, I go back and forth. I was born in Holland, and moved to the US when I was 11 years old. (03:37 to 07:37)
Pot
Rookiee: give us an idea of the ideologies in your home country. Chris: certain drugs are legal there, but not over here. If you forbid something someone wants, then they will find ways to get it. Sorry, I am a shy person who gets nervous when talking. Rookiee: don’t apologise; you are doing just fine. You seem to be saying pot is bad, am I right? Chris: personally yes, I do, but if someone wants to get high, then no reason why they shouldn’t. Rookiee: do you drink? Chris: yes. Rookiee: is alcohol a drug? Chris: yes. Rookiee: in the case of cigarettes, nicotine triggers dependency. The point is: one is legal, the other is not. Chris: while walking up a flight of stairs to the school auditorium, I got hassled by someone trying to give me pot. I said: no, I don’t want it. They said: aw c’mon you sissy girl. I said: get away from me. Rookiee: would that happen in Holland? Chris: no, because pot is legal. Rookiee: well there you go then. (07:38 to 14:37)
Waffle
Circumcision
Rookiee: if someone is born into something, they will assume it is natural. Chris: America is the only country that circumcises its babies. Fallen: rather, any country with a sizeable Jewish population. Rookiee: but I am Christian. Chris: I am not circumcised. Rookiee: you can divulge that fact, because you belong to the gay community. We on the other hand are pursued by people with axes, so we always have to worry about what we say. Fallen: here circumcision is normal because everyone does it, plus you want your kid to look like the other kids in the locker room. Rookiee: my mom wanted me to be circumcised because it is more hygienic, which is not true because smegma is anti-bacterial. Chris: why does America have to go against the world? No-one in Europe is circumcised. I think circumcision is a very retarded thing to do. It is mutilation, and the poor babies are in no position to object. Rookiee: Howard from episode 9 said it’s fine to chop off the end of a baby’s penis, but if you stroke it you go to jail. (15:55 to 20:59)
Elementary school perspective
Rookiee: free speech tv is a liberal channel where different organisations can submit their content. One topic was: ‘It’s elementary, a gay issue.’ An elementary school in New York or Boston had on their curriculum: to teach tolerance and acceptance of homosexuals. 7yo and 8yo kids airing their views on the topic appeared to be speaking from the heart, essentially saying that being gay is no big deal. Fallen: it would appear these kids have not yet been indoctrinated. (21:00 to 23:56)
Born good or evil?
Chris: the theme of the movie Lord of the Flies depicts humans born into a world as innocents, but as they grow older, they become indoctrinated by society. Rookiee: my thought is that humans are born neutral; they become either good or bad depending on their environment and what society teaches them. Historically, children were assumed to be born evil, and needed to be moulded into goodness and obedience. Nowadays, the notion is children are born innocent, and innocence needs to be preserved for as long as possible. (23:57 to 26:56)
War on paedophilia
Rookie: do you know the game black and white? You begin neutral, and you can either be a good god or a bad god. There are little humans living on an island, and you can either do good things for them or bad things for them. Either way, they end up worshiping you, but will they fear you or love you? Chris: OK, having heard that, I will now change my original opinion. Fallen: most people in the US will never be willing to consider an alternative viewpoint, let alone agree with it. Rookiee: the war against paedophilia is similar to the war on drugs. These wars endure and escalate, because they are profitable to those who benefit financially from them. In the former case, it will get to the point where you will automatically be assigned criminal status if you are found to have a paedosexuality. (26:57 to 31:51)
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Are kids inferior?
Rookiee: the term kid is indoctrinating people into thinking that someone who is younger than you is less valuable as a citizen. Chris: and you owe respect to the person who is older than you. It boils down to those who are younger are stupider because they haven’t experienced something yet. Fallen: personally, I don’t use it in a derogatory manner. Douglas Adams quotes: everything that is already in the world is normal. Anything that gets invented before you are 30 years old is incredibly exciting and creative, and with luck you can make a career out of it. Everything invented after you are 30 years old, is against the natural order of things, and the beginning of the end of civilisation as we know it. In other words, as we grow older, new things become bad things. Fallen: agree. (35:15 to 38:17)
Why is sex bad?
Chris: what do you think about kids who like to pose and take pictures? Fallen: for me it is questionable because I do not know what their situation is. Rookiee: it depends on the individual, and how much they can control their own destiny. If they have control, it doesn’t matter what they do. Why is it considered bad? Fallen: I guess it is because it is assumed people are forcing them to do that. Rookiee: it is because society feels kids do not have the biological, social, or mental ability to do it yet. Fallen: when I was a kid I said to hell with them, and went ahead and did it anyway. I just tried harder not to get caught. Rookie: your reality was you knew you had the ability to do it. Fallen: they didn’t say anything, because they didn’t know. Rookiee: but you got caught with another boy when you were 13 years old. Fallen: they said you shouldn’t do that. I was pissed off because I got busted, and scared because I didn’t know what would happen to me as a result. Chris: did you take any positives from it. Fallen: yes, I loved it! (38:18 to 43:44)
Technology makes people smarter
Rookiee: the age at which people have the ability to make a decision to have sex is falling because of technology. Chris: yes, I totally agree. Rookiee: because of technology, people are becoming smarter, more intelligent, socially independent, mentally developed. Fallen: agreed. (43:45 to 44:40)
Waffle
A child’s rights
Rookiee: what, if any, major differences are there between being gay and being a paedophile? Chris: a paedophile is attracted to boys younger than 18 years old. Rookiee: so a paedophile could be a 19yo attracted to a 17yo. Chris: numerical age issue doesn’t exist for those two people. Fallen: say I am a 21yo and I have a friend who is 15yo. Rookiee: the definition of boylover is different depending on who you ask, which culture that person comes from, how big the age gap is. Fallen: the age gap is the difference. Rookiee: does the child have the right to have sex? Fallen: no. Rookie: does a 12yo have the right to drive a car? Chris: no. Rookiee: doe the child have the right to masturbate? Chris: yes. Rookiee: does the child have the right to kill an animal? Chris: depends on the situation. On a farm it would be acceptable. Rookiee: so we return to the fact that it is not the age. It is what society considers appropriate for a given age undertaking a certain activity. Is a paedophile’s glass half full or half empty? (47:12 to 57:39)
Pedologues Episode 20 (4 June 2006) Rookiee, Old Saint Nick (OSN) summary
Introduction
OSN: I am a member of IPCE under the name of Old Saint Nick. I worked with a number of academics there. I was a technician in broadcasting, working mainly in the electronics sector. I am in the process of catching up fast with computer know-how. I recommend to the people here, the Security Now podcast. Rookiee: you are not the one who goes down people’s chimneys are you? OSN: no, although I am descended from him. He was a saint in the catholic church and he supported families with poor children, so there is something in that. I want to emphasise through this platform, the persecution of people who are attracted to children in any way, shape or form. The persecution has nothing to do with age of consent. I have qualifications in both psychology and welfare. I have read Tom O’Carroll’s scholarly book ‘Paedophilia: The Radical Case’. (04:49 to 10:06)
The stolen generation
OSN: I have also read material put out by anti-social workers. Rookiee: anti-social workers? OSN: yes. Anyone who takes a child from a family home is anti-social. Have you heard about the stolen generation? These are children of Aboriginal descent taken away from their parents, and brought up by good white families. Rookiee: so these are brown kids who must be ethnically cleansed in order to erase their heritage. This horror story sounds very familiar. OSN: correct. That process stopped in the mid-1970s. Now it is starting again under the guise of protecting children from sexual abuse. Never mind any other form of abuse, the focus is purely on sexual abuse. (10:07 to 11:55)
Growing-up sexually
Rookiee: I understand that in Aboriginal culture, child sexuality is tolerated to the point of encouragement. Is this so? OSN: correct. There is a single research project Growing Up Sexually, that considers all cultures worldwide excluding collective west countries: GUS. The significant finding is that marriage took place at puberty. Rookiee: what was the reason for this? OSN: the preservation of cultural patriarchy, to ensure his property went to his offspring. For more information, take a look at: The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State by Friedrich Engels. Rookiee: did it have anything to do with the lifespan of people? OSN: it is never a fixed date, because puberty onset varies from child to child. It is never regulated by law, rather it is regulated by biological events. (11:56 to 14:16)
Attraction to adolescence
OSN: From what I have learnt through Pedologues, you are not even a paedophile. Rookiee: I am attracted to boys on the cusp of adolescence, before the awkwardness appears, and when everything about them is in balance. I may see an 8yo boy, and sense his cuteness, but not be physically attracted to him. OSN: Growing Up Sexually provides answers to these observations. Girls entering puberty were often married off to men in their twenties who were able to maintain them financially. With boys, their sexual outlet was other boys and men, and this was universal. Both outcomes were considered normal. Historical religious texts refer to man with man interactions as taboo, but man with boy is never mentioned. (14:17 to 16:55)
Polymorphous perversity
The gay community is responsible for a lot of the problems we have, because some have labelled themselves as mentally abnormal, so society needs to treat them differently. Freud noted that all human beings suffer from polymorphous perversity, that is the non-specific nature of childhood sexuality in its primordial form, the impulse. What governments do is to censor the impulse and to remove the freedom to talk about it. Academics are being black-balled by Universities, because governments want to prevent research into this topic. Rookiee: it seems the ignorant are steering the intelligent. OSN: exactly. (16:56 to 18:42)
The paedophile problem
OSN: the “paedophile problem” is a symptom of a very sick time in our history, a time when we are reverting into a world of fear and superstition. Academics are lampooned by the media, social services are devoid of male employees, and instead comprise entitled bitches. Rookiee: the teaching profession too is dominated by female faculty. Nurturing roles are being denied to men. OSN: tolerance of men is at an all-time low. They have been made redundant by an overarching male-hating feminist paradigm forced upon society. (18:43 to 21:20)
False memory syndrome
Rookiee: I have talked with a few social workers. They say some of the kids they work with, have been abused so much that they can only express themselves physically. OSN: back in the 1980s, there was an enterprise called the false memory syndrome foundation. Children were making supernatural claims about so-called child abusers. This was like the witch plague back in the Middle Ages, when religious zealots roamed the land to root out witches having supernatural powers of devilry. The very same delusional paranoia is present today, but this time the fear is directed at paedophiles who are accused of creating the child abuse pandemic. (21:21 to 23:39)
Empathic sense
OSN: research papers written by a law professor and advisor to the UN, refer to the existence of pedo emotions arising from mentor-child contact. Rookiee: this is an empathic phenomenon. OSN: correct. A pre-pubescent girl statistically, will prefer an image of an adult face to an image of a pre-pubescent child’s face. However, a menstruating girl will instinctively prefer the face of a pre-pubescent girl, thus pathologising natural attraction. Children are by nature attracted to adults as care providers, and adults are attracted to children as objects to for nurturing. Adult attraction means every aspect, including sexual. (23:40 to 28:04)
Neophilia
OSN: Even mothers can be sexual attracted to their new-born babies, for example: the act of breast-feeding can trigger the paraphilia. Society deems neophilia acceptable for women, but not for men. There is also the diaper fetishist, who claims the diaper is the focus, when really it is all about what lies underneath. The diaper excuse ligitimises the paraphilia. All of these deflections attempt to avoid honest debate. This highlights the problem we have as a society in admitting to these aspects of human nature. (28:05 to 32:43)
Child carers
ONS: most people in the child care industry are there because they love working within it. Rookiee: it shouldn’t come as a surprise, to find those attracted to children work in such an industry. ONS: exactly. It is the ethos and the attitude of dedicated people that is being persecuted, not the behaviour, and as such it is a witch hunt in every sense. Rookiee: this is why so many people are leaving for unrelated employment, but many find themselves unable to work in any other sphere. (32:43 to 34:45)
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Society-wide attention deficit disorder
Age of consent at 25?
OSN: I asked an open-minded lawyer in Australia where a legal line could be drawn on the topic of parenting, sex education, and child abuse. She said it was the prerogative of the magistrate. On sex education, she said it is wiser to tell the child you were plucked out of a cabbage patch otherwise you risk incrimination, especially if you are a man. After two hours, she had no answer to my original question. There is discussion within the United Nations to increase the age of consent to 25 from 18, on the recommendation of the Family Association. They say people’s brains do not mature sufficiently before 25. Even the bible infers puberty is the right time to marry and breed. Rookiee: I always hate it when people say it is unnatural. Nothing could be more natural. That is why puberty exists. (43:14 to 49:54)
Sex vs. parenting
OSN: other than penetration which starts at puberty, every sexual perversion you can think of, you can find in normal, healthy parenting behaviour: rubber, leather, pacifiers, lederhosen, restraining devices. You can separate child birth and parenting from sex, but you cannot separate sex from child birth and parenting. (49:55 to 51:18)
Unequal relationships
Rookiee: every sexual kink has something to do with control, a power struggle. OSN: absolutely. Social workers decree sex with children is impermissible because of power inequality, especially if the adult is in a position of authority over the child. However when the topic is non-sexual, no-one cares about control, about consent, or anything. Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid blood transfusions based on biblical commands for example, so consent for them is irrelevant. In the US, children cannot consent to blood transfusions, even though the risk of being given contaminated blood is high due to the poor screening of original donors. Children cannot consent to circumcision. (51:19 to 57:08)
A politically correct target
Rookiee: I was having great difficulty finding a domain name for Pedologues. As soon as I mentioned what the content was about, hosters said no, sorry, and yet, they happily host activists who claim to support the abolition of the age of consent. OSN: Such discrimination demonstrates that your fundamental right to associate is under attack. Rookiee: we are a politically correct target ripe for eradication. That is how Hitler began his Final Solution program. I have encountered many child lovers who are afraid of using the word paedophile. OSN: governments are fond of using words as political tools to increase their power. (57:09 to 01:04:15)
Pedologues Episode 21 (20 June 2006) Rookiee, Old Saint Nick (OSN) summary
IPCE
Rookiee: you are with IPCE, correct? OSN: yes, but I must stress, I am not an official speaker on behalf of IPCE. Moreover IPCE has no representative currently. The IPCE initiative began in Holland with a group of scholarly authors, historians and researchers. It is on public record that Tom O’Carroll a published author, was a member. More recently, his house was raided by UK police, not due to anything illegal, but because they classified him as a political paedophile. An interesting comment from an organisation that is tasked with protecting citizens rights in a so-called free country. (02:33 to 06:20)
Alfred Kinsey
OSN: Alfred Kinsey was a courageous human-sexuality, or sexology, researcher, who placed his reputation on the line. His research earned him various labels: communist, Nazi, paedophile. Most academics are free to investigate a subject without criticism to further understanding. We don’t put Einstein or Hawking down for the work they did. Sexology is the only study that suffers attacks. Cheerleaders for attacks on Kinsey include Judith Reissman who founded the anti-Kinsey movement, and Laura Schlessinger who refers to Kinsey as a ‘scientific and moral fraud’ and a ‘certifiable sexual psychopath’. Rookiee: many self-righteous bitches out there claiming the moral high ground. The Kinsey institute is now a vault with no research underway. No sexology research is done in the US anyway. You have to go to Italy to discover sexology academics engaged in research. (06:21 to 13:16)
John Money
OSN: another sexologist was John Money who investigated trans-sexuality. He disproved his own theory, namely, you could raise any boy as a girl, and any girl as a boy. Rookiee: how was the theory disproved? OSN: during a failed circumcision, a young boy’s penis was chopped off. This boy was then raised as a girl. He underwent surgery to install functioning body parts. She became a he again. Importantly, he still felt as if he were a boy, suggesting that a sense of gender and physical characters are predetermined within the brain. (13:17 to 16:16)
Mental illness
Rookiee: mental illness is a very subjective term. OSN: prisons have become de facto mental hospitals. Michel Foucault, a French historian, observed that people who did not fit in were deemed mentally ill. Although they had done nothing wrong, they nevertheless were thrown into mental hospitals and jails. Rookiee: I have a big bone to pick with psychologists. Their field seems so flawed. OSN: it is ironic that the US and Israel do not read their own holy books. There is no reference within them to incarceration. Christians and Jews claim their morality is based on the bible, but nothing could be further from the truth. (16:17 to 18:53)
Joseph Duncan
Rookiee: Duncan, from Idaho, ended up torturing and killing a boy and taking a girl hostage. On his blog, you witness his mental degradation. At 16years old, he tried to have sex with someone a few years younger. He was arrested, and jailed for many years. Prison taught him to be manipulative to survive. His blog noted aspects of the sex offender register that ruined his life once he was placed back in society. Restrictions made it impossible to adapt. OSN: societal exclusion and oppression increases the risk of further offences. (18:54 to 22:59)
Hell on earth
OSN: hard to think of a heterosexual person being banned from marriage, banned from masturbating, banned from owning a sex doll, or banned from associating with other heterosexuals. Rather than providing rehabilitation and outlets for the offender, child advocates put all their energy into ostracising and torturing the offender. Every last one of them, with religion on their side, determined to create hell on earth for offenders, to expunge their own guilt about sex. Rookiee: it has nothing to do with child protection and rights. OSN: no. If you ask them: what would you do about child slave labour in India? Nothing. They would continue to buy Nike products. Not a problem. (22:59 to 26:02)
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Covenant vs. contract
Rookiee: in a sociology class about ten years ago, a teacher told me marriage is no longer a covenant, it is a contract. A covenant cannot be broken, even if the worst abuse is happening. It is harder than stone. A contract however, allows marriage to be broken if one party breaks his contract. High divorce rates evidence a decline in the institution of marriage. OSN: to get around the religious problem, catholics use the word annulment rather than divorce. Rookiee: to have access to a mechanism to break the contract is a positive in society. OSN: yes, absolutely. (33:31 to 37:17)
Dominance, emancipation, consent
Rookiee: consider the situation where someone has power over the other. For example, someone who does not have full citizen status, and someone who does. OSN: if the former is say, a 7yo. As an aside, Mohammed married a 6yo, and Mary was 9yo when Jesus was born, although there is no proof of this, the story has been handed down through the ages. Rookiee: adults have equal rights to break the marriage contract should they choose to. OSN: a child in Australia can divorce his or her parents. Rookiee: they can too here in the US, plus emancipation rights allowing a child to elect to become a full adult during his mid-teens, so long as his parents or guardian authorise it. OSN: no-one raises the consent issue pertaining to mentally challenged elderly people. Society does not place the same set of restrictions on the elderly and infirm as it places on the young. (37:18 to 44:05)
Pederasty
OSN: an adult unable to function, for whatever reason, tends to be allocated a carer by society. In Australia, an advocate can sign documents, etc. on behalf of such an adult. Prostitution is legal, so a prostitute can be hired to provide sexual relief for the adult, once the carer signs the forms. Rookiee: there was a time when governments sanctioned the pederast to mentor boys. This was with the knowledge and approval of the boy’s parents who gave permission to the pederast to take the boy under his wing. The boy had no say in the arrangement. Rookiee: I can’t say I agree with that. I would not be comfortable assuming responsibility for someone who didn’t want to be with me. Do you think there should be licensed pederasts in today’s society? OSN: no. We require legislation that is fit-for-purpose today. Women back then could not consent. Even today, some faiths like Baptists, advocate a woman be under her father’s control till she married, and under her husband’s control thereafter. Men therefore control her whole life. In reality, it is impossible to live by the bible, because it contains so many contradictions. (44:06 to 51:47)
Rights vs. responsibility
Rookiee: I talked recently to an advocate of puerism: the idyllic child love relationship. To achieve this idyll, he suggested rights be allocated to individuals irrespective of age. OSN: quantitative difference, not qualitative. A child has a range of disabilities compared with an adult. Those disabilities slowly dissipate over time. For elderly people, disabilities slowly accumulate over time. Rights come with increased responsibility. If you do not have responsibility, you forfeit your rights. Rookiee: what is your ideal ethos of the relationship between an adult and an adolescent? How would such a dynamic work in a perfect world? OSN: biologically human beings are not designed to live in nuclear families. We should be living in communities. Tribal societies encourage young children to be free range and independent. For example, the aboriginal walkabout is where a youngster survives in the wild on his own for a protracted period. Rookiee: I cannot imagine such freedoms and life tests for similar-age young people in the US. (51:48 to 59:16)
Communism
OSN: our society is sick. It is akin to using chemotherapy to combat cancer, by poisoning the body to treat the disease. Society discourages intergenerational interaction so much, you cannot cuddle a child nor can you take a photo of a child in a bath, without repercussions. Legislation is suffocating society. The mistake of communism is the same as the mistake of capitalism. Both ignore science and become religions. Ask any anarchist and he will say, communism is a religion with Karl Marx as its avatar, and Friedrich Engels as its prophet. Communism was so perfect it provided a utopia for children. In reality, the state has never been able to look after its children in any way, shape or form. The most prolific abuser of children in the west is the state. The fault is not necessarily the system itself, but the administrators of that system. (59:17 to 01:02:33)
Spartacist League
OSN: one group of communists worth considering is the Spartacist League. They fell victim to the 9/11 terrorist attack; their offices were in the World Trade Centre. They support decriminalisation of victimless crimes like drugs, wearing crash helmets, etc., the abolition of age of consent laws, plus they maintain governments have no place in the bedroom. They support the original Stonewall declaration for gay people which included rights for gay men to love boys. I don’t agree with all their views, but I do admire them for their very public stance, and for printing and distributing their opinions. People should be aware that non-paedophile groups exist out there that support doing away with age of consent legislation. Parents should be aware of the risks associated with a phobic society. For example: allowing their own children to run around naked, and upsetting a mortified bigot neighbour who then reports child abuse event to the police. (01:02:34 to 01:07:38)
Pedologues Episode 22 (24 June 2006) Rookiee, Marthijn Uittenbogaard, Norbert de Jonge, Ad van den Berg, and Jeffrey Gold summary
Martjin
Jeffrey: PNVD on the line, the Dutch party for neighbourly love, freedom and diversity. Marthijn: Norbert and I decided to create PNVD. It is not a paedophile party as the media claim. PNVD is broader. We are paedophiles who want to lower the age of consent. Paedophilia and child sexuality are huge taboos. In the 1970s several parties supported an age of consent of 12; some thought to abolish consent laws totally. Today, people think you are insane to hold such views. People forget until 2002, the consent age was 12 with agreement of child and parents. Rookiee: recalls the trope: ‘a child can’t consent; they lack full autonomy’. (06:10 to 09:32)
Ad
Rookiee: Ad is the PNVD treasurer. Ad: fifteen years ago I was president of Martjin, an organisation formed in 1982 when it split off from the parent organisation. (09:33 to 11:21)
Norbert
Jeffrey: what is Dutch opinion of paedophilia and the law? Norbert: some feel current laws are not where they should be. Others are ill-informed. Media and politicians prevent them knowing the full story. PNVD was formed due to censorship. We try to remove taboos, dogmas, fears and intolerance through activism. A further issue is immigration and integration of foreigners. Voicing such topics is discouraged by politicians, so solutions never get proposed. (11:22 to 13:52)
Mental disorder
Martijn: the DSM is an international psychiatric bible. Holland defers to it. Jeffrey: physchiatry makes a lot of money from treating our so-called disorder. Homosexuality stayed on DSM for ages too. Rookiee: the same grift lies behind the ‘war on drugs’ in the US. (13:53 to 16:49)
Drug use
Norbert: drug use is a further PNVD issue. We intend to legalise drug use and make marijuana available from 12 years old. By allowing kids to make their own decisions, consumption should decline. The war on drugs in the West has failed. In a tolerant Holland, there is less consumption. (16:50 to 18:30)
Dependence on the state
Marthijn: PNVD uses the slogan ‘dare to think for your-self’. We want to increase people’s independence. Right now, responsibility is vested in the state, not in the individual. This leads to bad outcomes. Jeffrey: interesting observation. Here, teens are taught they are children. At 18, they have no clue how to survive. (18:31 to 20:47)
Sexual inexperience
Marthijn: sexuality cannot be learnt through masturbating to pornography or from books. Children are kept ignorant of sex, respect and love, so lie behind their biological development and introspective. Only in late teens are kids forced to catch up on this critical aspect of learning. Rookiee: several anti-contact proponent views. Historically, sexual activity was only permissible for a straight married couple under Christian tenets. These days, society and parents stigmatise childhood sexual activity. (20:48 to 23:31)
Experience denied
Rookiee: societies had lower ages of consent historically. Norbert: it is all about profit and control. Jeffrey: listener question: Have you never thought about the effect of sex on the child’s future development? Ad: yes, of course. Dutch research concluded no negative effect on kids experiencing consensual sex, but problems arose when experiences were forbidden. Rookiee: OSN from episode 21 said sexual activity is a fundamental biological need. Jeffrey: criminalising sexual activity among children is inhuman. Norbert: we are against abuse. I had no experiences as a boy, but in retrospect I missed out. Having these would prepare me better in adulthood. Sexuality is one aspect of life omitted from childhood, which is very strange. Jeffrey: I missed out too and regret it. Sexuality is not learnt, it is innate. (23:32 to 29:17)
Appropriate punishment?
Rookiee: a 1960s parenting video depicts a 5yo child playing with himself. A parent slaps him on the hand and exclaims: bad boy, don’t do that! Jeffrey: when a teen realises attraction to younger boys, he worries about his paedophilic sexuality and society’s reaction to him. That is a horrible situation to be in. (29:18 to 30:54)
Sex education
Rookiee: listener question, will PNVD promote paedosexuality as a distinct sexual orientation as part of broader education and reform? Norbert: we are against indoctrination. It is for schools to teach. We prefer effective teaching of tolerance, love, respect, sexuality and intimacy. Jeffrey: like the libertarian party. Norbert: we are part libertarian, with humanitarian and socialist ethos too. (30:55 to 35:59)
The word paedophile
Rookiee: the word paedophilia has negative connotations. The trope goes: ‘paedophiles only aim to have sex with children’. Norbert: paedophilia includes acts of loving and caring too. Most paedophiles I know don’t even have contact with kids. Given the perception plus the illegality, it is better not to engage in such relationships. If the case goes to court, both the paedophile and the child suffer. (36:00 to 38:06)
Asexual paedophile
Rookiee: is there such a thing a non-sexual paedophile? Norbert: everyone has sexuality. Marthijn: some people are non-sexual. Rookiee: is a paedophile defined by their sexuality or is there more to it? Norbert: boy lovers tell us we focus too much on the sex topic. In real life, there is far more to it. We need the Dutch community to support us on non-paedophile issues too. (38:07 to 40:24)
PNVD origin
Jeffrey: how did PNVD come about? Norbert: I started it because I was interested in politics. We discussed the idea for several years. In 2004, we created a website, which is currently being changed and updated. (40:25 to 41:50)
Educating molesters
Rookie: if a future society considered paedophilia normal, what if molesters got out of control? Norbert: laws would still be there to dissuade molesters. In oppressive societies, more children are hurt. Which is healthier? Jeffrey: would you lock them up, treat them, or consider it a crime. Marthijn: they should be treated. They need to be taught to love, to respect, to listen, and to value the child above everything else. Rookiee: suppressing human sexual outlets leads to bad outcomes that tip people over the edge. Norbert: labeling paedophiles as monsters, leads to the creation of monsters. (41:51 to 45:54)
Introductions
Ad: other than what I mentioned earlier, I am 62 and retired from my nursing job in a psychiatric hospital. Norbert: I am 28 and a Unix computer programmer, but more recently teach high school kids. I have recently met a 19 year old girl who is aware of my sexuality and who thinks I am cute, which is nice. Marthijn: the organisation Martjin was not named after me. The first magazine was created two years earlier in 1980, when I was 8. I spend my time as an activist, and have done for eight years. I work part time too. (53:05 to 59:49)
Inaudible
Jeffrey
Jeffrey: I am 39 years old. As a teen, I was attracted to boys and thought the phase would pass. I instead was the dirty old man my family warned me about and society hated so much. I became very depressed and got kicked out of my sophomore year. I did various jobs, but also found the internet. I built web pages and established contact with other boy lovers. I returned to school, studied and qualified in mechanical engineering. I started a pride movement. I knew about NAMBLA, but did not know about Martjin. (01:01:46 to 01:09:39)
Liberal legislation problems
Rookiee: listener asks, on hard drug legislation and age of consent reduction, is a child more at risk from drugging and molestation? Marthijn: a child would be empowered to decide whom to choose, whom to say yes to, or no to. Rape will still be a crime. Jeffrey: listener says boy lovers suffer from introspection due to worry over their situation. They are blind to the bigger picture. I would also like to know how PNVD members deal with hostile criticism from non-boy lovers. (01:09:40 to 01:13:44)
Event time line
Marthijn: May 30 a major Dutch newspaper wrote a story. That evening our internet service provider no longer hosted us. May 31 two politicians spoke in parliament. One to deny us the right to participate in elections, the other demanded examining our activities. June 3 we could no longer use our PNVD party name; it was a security company name. June 7 a court case arose. We received threats, even death threats. Jeffrey: we just now received a death threat directed at PNVD members. Norbert: we will never give in to threats. Ad was living in a camp site, and was threatened so much we had to take him to a safe place. June 8 we sent a letter to all parties requesting denouncement of the threats, otherwise they condone them. June 10 an anti-paedophile protest outside The Hague. We will be sued on July 7. During this time we did a lot of media interviews. June 11 an article appeared online entitled: paedophile party, what’s the problem? Four years ago, 12yo kids were able to engage in sexual activity. Eight years ago, it was legal to possess child pornography, and children could be filmed in porn productions. Child porn was in Dutch sex shops through the 1980s. Jeffrey: child porn available until 1978 in the US. Norbert: now, if you are found to possess a picture of a 17 year old with an erection, you will be punished. Jeffrey: marked societal changes since 1978. Rookiee: the internet has changed society; doors previously barred have been opened by youth. Norbert: society wants to slow progress. Rookiee: legislators are out of touch. Jeffrey: being done by inculcating fear and hatred. Norbert: I totally agree; society has a big problem. We are scapegoats. Discussion and debate on taboo subjects is forbidden. Norbert: June 14, the Italian Alleanza Nazionale party asked the EU to rule PNVD illegal. (01:13:45 to 01:30:00)
Pedologues Episode 22.5 (24 June 2006) Rookiee, Marthijn Uittenbogaard, Norbert de Jonge, Ad van den Berg, Peter Herman, Jeffrey Gold, and Jessie summary
Introduction
Peter Herman: I am a NAMBLA steering committee member. Previously I taught New York High School students. I was outed whilst teaching, and spent ten years defending myself. The teachers Union was pusillanimous. I hired a lawyer but lost. I was dismissed in 1993 because I belonged to NAMBLA. I am positive as I am sure attitudes will change toward the boy love community. (00:01 to 12:58)
Puritan heritage
Howie, a listener from SQIR says I am Jewish. I do not support the Jewish women causing problems for PNVD. They exemplify the Christian, Judeo, western puritan heritage that believes children should be innocent, and being sexual is anti-innocence. Rookiee: people try to preserve innocence but always end up failing. Isn’t it ironic that pederasts were once considered to be the best teachers? Now they are considered not to be. Peter: I agree. (12:59 to 17:39)
Dutch survey findings
Marthijn: adults are in denial over children and their sexuality. When we formed PNVD, an article declared children have no sexual feelings. If they do, molesters have surely abused them. A survey of 10,000 Dutch youngsters between 12 and 18, revealed 25% of them said to have had cyber sex over a six-month period. One-third of boys and one in ten girls stripped naked on these occasions. Further research called ‘sex under 25’, found 7% between 11 and 14, have had penetrative sexual intercourse. Children are evidently sexual beings, but adults don’t want to hear it. (17:40 to 20:11)
Power differentials
Rookiee: I have heard ‘it is OK for children to be sexual, but only among themselves. Don’t let anyone older be involved because they will only take advantage.’ Surely, an older person as mentor would be beneficial. Marthijn: they say their war is on predators. In reality, the war is on child sexuality and emancipation. Norbert: a constant argument is the power differential. But one could say it is the adult exerting power by preventing children from being sexual. (20:12 to 26:12)
Law suits
Jeffrey: laws are becoming increasingly harsh towards paedophiles. This situation is unlikely to change soon in the US or in the UK. Maybe a slim chance though in Holland via the PNVD law suits. Norbert: one law suit has been filed by the security company NVD. Unfortunately we lost it. A second is underway to prevent PNVD from existing. Even if we registered our party formerly, we would be forbidden from exercising our right to speak on behalf of that party. This case will attract a lot of media attention. A third is one initiated against my university. They want to prevent me from associating with children as part of my pedagogy course, even though they agreed originally because another student would be with me. They have caved in to media pressure. Now I have been barred from studying, and told their security will ensure I don’t set foot on campus. They say this is an ethical decision, but no, it is purely commercial. This case is critical not just for me, but for others discriminated against on the basis of their sexuality. (26:13 to 32:57)
SQR vs. paypal
Jeffrey: Sure Quality Radio (SQR) had a paypal account to process donations. We have an Amazon partner store. Because a link of ours pointed to the movie L.I.E., paypal dropped our account and refused to do business with us anymore. L.I.E. was a major motion picture. Paypal is telling us indirectly, because you are paedophiles, we don’t want your business. We are reviewing options but lawyer affordability is the problem. If we could open the litigation door in say The Netherlands, it might work. Rookiee: the media would sure be quick to sniff out and highlight the story. (32:58 to 36:04)
Krumme 13
Marthijn: absolutely. The PNVD party project is a form of activism. Our manifesto does not mention the word paedophile, but we do promote children making their own decisions. Setting up a political party and fighting law suits requires money. Another law suit is the case against Krumme 13, a German paedophile organisation founded by Dieter Gieseking. A link to the book ‘Loving Boys’, by Edward Brongersma appeared on the Krumme 13 website. The objection was not copyright, but that youths visiting the site may be sent in the wrong direction morally. Dieter is being sued but cannot finance legal costs. (36:05 to 38:12)
Appeal
Jeffrey: the civil rights movement faced similar financing difficulties. They created banks to pool funds for legal costs. These collectives comprised strangers, so trust was vital to create cash flow. Norbert: for several weeks we have had a banner on several websites, saying ‘support activism’. The banner links to a web page explaining an alliance of websites that support changes to our society, plus an option to donate. Despite this, no donations have been received. If things are to change, funds will be needed. (38:13 to 41:06)
Comments from listeners I
Rookiee: listener suggests people who go public and then face law suits, should fund their own costs. Norbert: such views are from people who feel things cannot be changed. Rookiee: unless you are rich, one person cannot change things. Norbert: legal action against my university is costing me a lot of money. A success would mean it would all be worth it. Rookiee: listener says ‘his study is hanging together with his sexual behaviour; doesn’t he get this?’ Norbert: it may be hanging together with my sexual feelings, but even that is far-fetched. Rookiee: they are saying normal people can control themselves, but you can’t. Norbert: people are risk-averse; their thinking has to change. PNVD recommends authority figures avoid intimate relationships. (41:07 to 50:29)
Inaudible
No taboos
Norbert: PNVD is a regular political party, not a paedophile party. We need free-thinking open-minded people to support us. Marthijn: we do not want any taboos. Rookiee: what about sex with a dead person? Marthijn: so long as permission is obtained whilst the deceased was still alive. (53:03 to 55:31)
Waffle
Manifesto translation
Jeffrey: is there an English translation of your manifesto? There will be many non-Dutch people who want to read it. Norbert: hopefully by next year, but we need more translators to help us with this. pnvd.nl is the website address. (56:48 to 59:08)
Competence and cognition
Rookiee: caller says adults and children have similar competence and cognitive ability. They also share equivalent behavioural traits. Equal rights and protections regardless of age, should be law. The caller is an advocate of puerism. Do you agree with that? Ad: agree. (59:09 to 01:00:34)
Who are the villains?
Rookiee: are you in hiding now? Ad: my home was a trailer at a campsite. Young people around 20 years old ruined the trailer, and stole my home contents. I received death threats, so I had to move to a different part of the country. Jeffrey: yet we are the villains. (01:00:35 to 01:03:42)
Object vs. being
Rookiee: listener says those who control are resisting losing that control. Norbert: PNVD poses a threat because they fight for equivalence between adults and children. Society is afraid of us being on the same emotional level as a child, because it compromises their hold on power over children. Norbert: there is a difference between treating a child as an object and treating a child as a being. Jeffrey: caller says we do not perceive children as pieces of meat. Such thinking has nothing to do with sexual orientation. (01:03:43 to 01:06:54)
Child pornography I
Rookiee: Stacey Harp of Active Christian Media suggests we trade child pornography among each other like baseball cards. It is true child pornography is exchanged within the boy lover community. What does PNVD say regarding the rights of a child and photographing or filming them, and image distribution? Norbert: a child can be photographed or filmed in any act when it is not sexual; no permission is required or obtained. No-one cares what a child may feel about that. Rookiee: in Hollywood, parents readily pimp out their child to the film industry. Norbert: on the topic of ‘child pornography’, society’s phobic view of sex is the problem. (01:06:55 to 01:09:17)
Recap on ‘No taboos’
Child pornography II
Jessie: topic on bl.net was discussed. One guy talked about legalising it. I said if it was legal and controlled lots of kids who would line up for it. Rookiee: society says it is not healthy for them. Jessie: if they enjoy it, they should be allowed to do it. The availability of material would provide a safety valve for paedophiles that have no outlet for their sexuality. (01:10:12 to 01:12:16)
Donations plea
Jeffrey: we should help PNVD out. A victory anywhere is a victory for all of us. Norbert: recaps the donation mechanism. We need financial support to fight those who are preventing us from speaking up. Rookiee: how much money do you require to retain lawyers? Norbert: Several thousand Euros per lawyer, plus a similar amount for a new server. Rookiee: funds will be needed once the law suits are out of the way. Norbert: true. Jeffrey: how much have you already spent? Norbert: about five thousand Euros. Rookiee: just to clarify, individuals internationally can donate money, correct? Norbert: yes, they can. (01:12:17 to 01:19:15)
Wrap-up
Rookiee: we reached a peak of 150 listeners today. PNVD members expressed thanks to their hosts, and vice versa. (01:19:16 to 01:23:54)
Pedologues Episode 23 (10 July 2006) Rookiee, Mike, and Chris summary
Introduction
Mike: born and raised in California during the 1950s and 1960s when things were a lot different. I am a freelance journalist. Rookiee: how was it back then? Mike: I remember some of my adventures aged 12 or 13, and not being so hushed up as now. (05:08 to 08:05)
Erotic imagery
Chris: did child porn exist back then? Mike: yes, during the 1960s. Bookshops sold magazines with erotic pictures of teen boys. I wrote for ‘Gay Boy’ during the 1970s. Chris: another one from that time was Piccolo. Mike: I don’t know that one. I don’t see anything wrong with the older magazines. They were less erotic than those today. Now, things have gone too far. Back then it was only boys and no adults. Rookiee: describe the levels of eroticism back then. Mike: you would see for example, a boy of 16 and a boy of 12 naked and sucking each other. Rookiee: you would not see that today in the US. Chris: that is a result of the oppression across society. Mike: I agree. (08:06 to 14:59)
Erotic literature
Rookiee: aged 13, I had an erotic book from the 1970s. That was my security blanket. The book mentioned legal struggles in printing erotic stories. By the late 1990s, online bulletin boards had oodles of erotic literature, a goldmine for a horny teen. What is the legal situation for distributing erotic literature now? Mike: it is becoming restrictive. As a journalist, I have certain rights to support my art. Laws are ill-defined around the internet due to the international dimension. (15:00 to 18:41)
Child pornography I
Chris: Roookie told me if you are a 15yo and take a sexual picture of yourself and the police get to know, you are screwed. Rookiee: one can be charged with the production and distribution of child pornography. Even if you are a 17.9yo, the same applies. What if a 15yo wants to see pictures of other 15yo boys? Mike: it is illegal. Rookiee: is it immoral for a 15yo? Mike: no. Rookiee: if a 10yo grabs his parent’s camera and takes a photo. He has no shame of it. Yet they tell him it is a bad thing to have done. Mike: the court would say he is not capable of making decisions for himself. I have chaperoned dance classes for kids, and they are fully capable. If a parent tells you different, they don’t know what they are talking about. The kids trust me and confide in me, and tell me lots. Chris: I know 11 year olds who keep touching themselves. Mike: I see nothing wrong with that. (18:42 to 23:59)
Sexually transmitted diseases
Chris: in the year 2035, BLs are socially accepted, not totally, but like gays today. Wouldn’t sexually transmitted diseases become an epidemic? Rookiee: increase awareness through sex education. It would be the same as today because kids are having sex today, but they would be better informed. (23:59 to 26:55)
Journalistic integrity I
Rookiee: how do child lovers combat discrimination spewed out daily via the media? Mike: society’s perception is that the community contain law-breakers, so negativity gets published because it sells. Rookiee: some say those laws are unjust and the media portray perpetrators as monsters, when in reality, it was consensual sex. Mike: often, the story and the headline differ because different people are involved; the editor writes the headline. I might spend an hour discussing the full story, but just thirty seconds to read it. (26:56 to 32:03)
Journalistic integrity II
Rookiee: whatever happened to journalistic integrity when the full story is never told? Mike: most papers do both sides of the story. Most stories I have seen are fair as I have read them. I wrote to the producers of the Law and Order tv series, about the bias against paedophiles on their shows. They wrote back admitting to this bias, but added this is what the public wants to see. I replied saying, no, this is not what the public wants to see. (32:04 to 37:16)
Waffle
Journalistic integrity III
Mike: when I read something or watch tv, I separate my personal feelings. Rookie: like a doctor? Mike: yes. Rookiee: when I write, I add personal opinion. Mike: if I wrote about a paedophilia case, I would relay the news without crucifying, unless they had hurt someone. Rookiee talks about his Wikipedia contribution experience discussed in ep 7. How can news stories be objective in such a biased media environment? Mike: there is much biased coverage out there. I try to be objective. I also avoid criticising other writers, because doing that can come back to haunt you. I am more concerned in doing what I do well. (40:08 to 46:52)
Journalistic integrity IV
Rookie: in the April fool’s pedologue podcast, World Daily News accused me of mocking the FBI. In fact, I discussed FBI infiltration in a show. I later mocked tv evangelists for claiming they were unbiased and telling us everything they said was God’s word. How can the news industry be allowed to print distorted untruthful accounts? Where is journalistic integrity? They didn’t bother to contact me. Mike: I know fellow journalists who are disillusioned and leaving media. Journalists hide behind freedom of speech. High turnovers of staff lacking journalism qualifications, doesn’t help. (46:53 to 49:26)
Journalistic integrity V
Rookie: stories about sex with minors are automatically molestation, which may or may not be the case. How can we combat that? Mike: the press is guilty of finding a person guilty before a verdict is given. Rookiee: has there ever been journalistic integrity? Has it always been mob mentality? Mike: yes. I have only been involved in features, people profiles, and soft news stories. Hard news writers struggle because they are tasked with producing stories the public wants to hear. Rookiee: I avoid newspapers because I think they are full of shit. Instead, I get news from foreign sources. News is an entertainment industry. Mike: maybe now, but not historically. Rookie: I have to search outside the US to locate honest news. That doesn’t say much for US journalism. Mike: there is more competition in the US, so it is unlikely to change soon. Rookiee: if change comes from improved education, then we are screwed. Big corporations don’t want critical thinkers; they want obedient workers. (49:27 to 56:41)
Educating and mentoring
Rookie: talking with Old Saint Nick in ep 20, we discussed how the education system fails children. Mentors need to be paedo-emotional, yet teachers cannot show such emotion to children, as they risk sanction. Mike: this is why I got involved in youth work, especially as I lost my dad when I was 12. The reason was not sexual. I wanted to give one thing to kids I never had; someone there for them. I wouldn’t be honest if I said I wasn’t interested in some of the kids I mentored. (56:42 to 59:28)
Community differences
Mike: am I interested in taking it further? I don’t know. We are all different. Rookiee: I am getting to the point where I can no longer categorise a person’s sexuality. Mike: I get into a chat room and the conversation degenerates to the point where I just can’t proceed. I think, am I really like him? No I am not. It does make me question whether I am a part of this whole thing. None of us are saints, but neither do we lurk around in alleys. (56:42 to 59:28)
Journalism vs. newspaper
Rookiee: is journalism a style? Mike: yes. Journalistic and newspaper writing are different. Rookiee: so you do personal or erotic writing? Mike: I used to do erotic writing for publication, but no longer. The chat room dialogue soured me. Rookiee: you told me that NAMBLA turned down a story you wrote. Mike: yes, it was too graphic they said, but I didn’t think it was. It was part auto-biography part fiction, and featured an experience when I was 12 years old. I may have made it too personal for consumption. I can understand NAMBLA not wanting to be overtly graphic. (59:29 to 01:01:05)
Blogging
Rookiee: do you think a way to secure journalism integrity is online blogging, etc.? Mike: probably. I know journalists who have their own blogs, as they are unable to express themselves elsewhere. Newspapers want to appeal to the family structure. Ironically most readers are over forty-five. Young people don’t read; they get news online or from tv. Rookiee: mainstream media is inherently flawed. Young people are reverting to the traditional personal communication like blogs. (01:01:06 to 01:05:21)
Youtube
What do you think about Youtube? Mike: Watched a few videos there. Rookiee: YT’s slogan is ‘broadcast yourself’. Anyone can upload a video. Some involve minors. Many of them are highly exhibitionist. One 11yo decided to strip to music very proudly. Tell me, was that boy was forced? It was erotic and porno, and it shouldn’t happen. Society would say ‘he didn’t consent’, or ‘he didn’t know better, and anyway it was unacceptable’. Mike: I happen to have seen it, and I accepted it. (01:05:22 to 01:10:17)
CP II
Rookiee: I advocate a sea-change as to how society perceives minor-attracted individuals. I say minor-attracted not because I am ashamed of using the word paedophile, but because not everyone who is a minor is a child, and not everyone who is attracted to children is attracted to pre-pubescent children. Mike: my age of attraction is 11 years old plus. Rookiee: what do you think of a 17yo jacking off on camera being categorised as child porn? Mike: that is not child porn. Rookiee: federally, a child is anyone under the age of majority. That means 18 years old. The term ‘child porn’ is misleading. Those depicted in ‘child porn’ are mainly minors, not children. Legislators and litigators do not handle this topic honestly. Producers and distributors are primarily kids. I laughed when the government claimed child porn was a multi-billion dollar industry. Mike: it is not for sure, but what can you do? (01:10:18 to 01:13:31)
Pedologues Episode 24 (17 July 2006) Rookiee, James, and John summary
Introduction
James: girl lover from Canada. John: from California. I have a blog ‘at our expense’, and post as Humbolt on girl chat. Rookiee: you two are the first girl lovers on Pedologues. Welcome! (03:05 to 08:06)
BLs vs GLs
Rookiee: I notice friction in the community. Similarities but different identities. John: in the media BLs are portrayed as funny and to be mocked, whereas GLs are reviled. Rookiee: mockery was likely a result of NAMBLA. South Park’s Marlon Brando Lover Association is an example. I am into girls, but not as much as boys. Discourse on Pedologues has been about BL. What is it like to be a GL? James: society reacts strongly. John: they think of intercourse and ugly old perverts. Rookiee: societal misconceptions for sure. BLs discuss boy celebrities and the movies they appear in. Community moralists disapprove of overtly sexual debate. John: we have girl chat chat with similar discussion. (08:07 to 15:25)
Girls more flirtatious
Rookiee: In the boy lover community, pictures are more candid and natural. James: females are fashion-conscious and want to emulate models. Being flirtatious is popular with girls. Rookiee: I am not into model imagery, but many girl lovers are. Anger over ‘indecent and inappropriate’ photos of young girls in Salt Lake City wearing thongs, legs spread, etc. But photos were legal. FBI has become a moral arbiter of decency. Where do you think this is headed? John: I hope so many stupid laws are passed so everybody gets jailed. If non-offenders get riled, whole communities get riled and vocal. (15:26 to 23:39)
Mary Kay Latourneau
Rookiee: a recent interview with the couple for once was not twisted into something bad. Hard to do so given they have children and are happily married. James: I fully support them. Her attraction to him as a 13yo is an innate one. How many men when boys would have passed by such an opportunity? Rookiee: is it appropriate for an authority figure to be intimate with their student? John: I was against it some time ago. I recall a case of an 8yo girl having a sexual relationship with her mother. She grew up open-minded with no regrets. (23:40 to 27:29)
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Etymology of pornography
Rookiee: society believes child pornography is commercially produced and distributed. John: Christian conservatives uphold this view. Rookiee: has pornography changed over time? John: yes, the media now publishes more skin. My mother said it would be unacceptable in the 1960s. Rookiee: I mean, images created in studios then mailed to customers, or, self-created images distributed online. In the latter case, kids are the creators. Is that pornography? James: it depends on who you ask. John: etymology of ‘pornography’. Pornos is Greek for people who sell their bodies for money. Graphy is the act of writing down. James: now, everyone can create images – music too. Rookiee: legislators and lawmakers need to rethink what ‘pornography’ is. Most is not produced for profit. James: agree. (35:30 to 41:40)
War on child pornography
Rookiee: wars on child pornography and drugs have equivalence. John: both have been around a long time. Rookiee: erotic definitions vary over time. Society is dynamic. Rookie refers to the youtube clip discussed in ep 23, where an 11 year old boy strips and gyrates erotically before the camera. John: are they selling their bodies? Rookiee: no, of course not. They do it for fun and exhibitionism. James: girl erotica is taken down quickly from youtube. Rookiee: moderators decide based on comments received. Rookiee: but what is OK? A youtube clip taken on Malibu beach showed two boys were beating up a third boy. That clip stayed up for months. Is violence more tolerated than sex? James: definitely. (41:41 to 46:20)
Prosecuting consensual intimacy
Rookiee: if sex with minors was legalised, what would happen? John: rape cases in court would increase, but the rapes overall would decrease as the stigma of child love disappears. James: the system is anti-nature because intergenerational intimacy is prosecuted. Abuse cases would decrease because the need to coerce a child into secrecy vanishes. Rookiee: laws already exist to protect against abuse and rape. (46:21 to 53:31)
Puerism
Rookiee: in a puerist society, rights and protections are afforded to all, regardless of age. James: I am not a fan of forcing responsibility onto kids. Rookiee: so they should have freedom but no responsibility? James: yes. Rookiee: what ages? James: by child, I am talking pre-puberty. If a female can become pregnant, she has assumed adulthood. John: the US system infantilises children. Other societies treat post-puberty as adult. Rookiee: true of tribal cultures and also of the pre-industrialised west. (53:32 to 56:30)
Religion and sex
Rookiee: perhaps we should consider children as full citizens. At 13 say, they can vote, go to war, and have full sexual freedom. John: outlawing religious views on sex would be a major corrective. Childhood and innocence, and age of consent, was coined in Victorian era England when child prostitution was a problem. Rookiee: chastity was imposed on girls to prevent them from legally being wed and procreating. (56:31 to 01:01:40)
Aptitude for technology
James: I don’t see a child being limited. As we grow, we limit ourselves. Re technology, children are very gifted. Adults try to put the cork back into the bottle, but it is too late. Rookiee: kids have taken the place of adults when it comes to mastering technology; just look at what happens online. The internet has been the catalyst. (01:01:41 to 01:04:13)
Reactions to technologies
Rookiee: Douglas Adams quote: “A set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies: Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary, plus you can probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.” Kids can be sexual because they demonstrate technical competence. Kids would say: ‘why freak out about us being sexual; why don’t you just grow up.’ Meanwhile moralists scream ‘kids are being abused’. Kids reply: ‘no we are not’. (01:04:14 to 01:09:08)
Intergenerational dialogue
James: it is so easy to box oneself into a corner when debating one’s sexuality in the community. We talk about ourselves, when focus should be on the kids we desire. Being dynamic and useful lessens as one grows older. Rookiee: niches exist where you can relate your wisdom to younger community members. They help you in turn. Intergenerational dialogue is key. (01:09:09 to 01:13:16)
Is masturbation harmful?
John: kids masturbate. I began to masturbate as a 5yo. As this is fact, sexual encounters cannot be harmful. Emotional harm or trauma is irrelevant. I ran a small survey of thirty participants who recall masturbating at 7 years old and younger. I asked: ‘do you feel you were traumatised as a result of masturbating at this age?’ All of them responded no. (01:13:17 to 01:14:45)
James story I
Rookiee: one of my friends said he masturbated at 7. At 9, he had a relationship with a 30 year old father and daughter. He said it was the happiest time of his life. James: my catholic upbringing was traumatic. It took me years to learn how the mechanics worked. As a result, I feel cheated. From 9, adventures started with an older guy. Sex was a wonderful thing to have. It bothers me that society denies children early experiences. As a child, it was all fun with no inhibitions, no emotional conflicts, and no attachments. It was all one big game. I just rubbed myself raw without orgasm. Rookiee: was it a learning experience? James: definitely. It was exploration, an insatiable curiosity and obsession. (01:14:46 to 01:18:41)
James story II
I was fortunate to have a 16yo teen who shared my interest for two years. I was fascinated by his ability to orgasm whilst pleasuring him. I know he was experiencing something wonderful. We worked on my ability to orgasm. Finally it happened. Rookiee: society would say you were traumatised and were forced by him, that you never grew up and turned into a paedophile. James: I miss him and would love to contact him. It was love. I used every excuse to be with him. Rookiee: was that love different from what you experience now? James: nothing like it since. I grew up heterosexual. Maybe there is a kind of reversal, young girls climbing into my arms now and me climbing into the teens arms then. (01:18:42 to 01:22:40)
James story III
At 11, I discovered homosexuality was a mortal sin in catholic church diktats. I went directly to the teen and asked for my comic books back. I told him I found out that what we were doing was a sin and I couldn’t see him again. That was the last time I saw him. For years, that was my shameful secret I couldn’t divulge, especially to adult girlfriends. John: I was very religious growing up; I too suffered shame. I’d convince myself I was asexual and my sexual side was a perversion. Rookiee: perhaps ‘normal people’ push their ‘perverse’ sexual side away, because they are in denial of what they actually are. Rookiee: was what you did as a child natural or unnatural? James: looking back, it feels very natural. (01:22:41 to 01:24:53)
Bonobo
Rookiee: bonobo apes are closer to humans than chimps are. They are apex sexed up primates. It is intrinsic for us to experience sex from a young age; being denied is damaging. Our society is so violent likely because of this damage. Bonobos communicate across every generation with sexual acts. Ironically, bonobos are one of God’s creations. It appears governments use denial of sexual freedom to breed warmongers. (01:24:54 to 01:30:32)
Pedologues Episode 25 (30 July 2006) Rookiee, Jeremy, Bastion, and Amadeus (SQR DJ) summary
Waffle
US world policing
Rookiee: if you were to make one statement, what would it be? Amadeus: statement to anyone on the internet, paedophile or pro-paedophile supporter such as myself, find a new hobby. Law enforcement is getting tenacious with their investigations and prosecutions. If you are going to do this stuff, do not trust anyone. Any website that allows downloading of illegal pornography is likely being run by the law. Rookiee: what if it is run abroad? Amadeus: US law enforcement is the world’s police department. I have this sampler that Jeremy did called ‘debauchery unleashed brought to you by the patriot act, pushing its fucked-up morality on the entire world’. Rookiee: chatting to Old Saint Nick in episode 21, he said the World Health Organisation proposes an international age of consent of 25. (05:05 to 07:32)
LEA moral support
Amadeus: you can have a million pictures of speedo-clad boys on your computer, but if just one is remotely questionable age-wise, all of them become level-three pornography. You end up having one million counts of possession. Rookiee: how can law enforcement say this guy had one million illegal photos in his possession, when he only had one illegal photo? Amadeus: law enforcement need social morals rooting for them, otherwise they have no leg to stand on. I envisage the internet either being shut down or being controlled by law enforcement in the future. When I was younger I could use my local library freely. These days, library policy restricts the length of time you sit there reading a book. You are forced to sign it out and take it home to read. Rookiee: the phrase our policy implies overriding an individual’s liberty. Amadeus: exactly. (07:33 to 12:33)
Podcasts censored
Rookiee: you know what happened when I had my podcast indexed in five or six different indices, my index got taken down because it contained ‘inappropriate content’. An ex-DJ guy from MTV with his own podcast came on air and said my topic is not a matter of free speech. Another podcast he had an issue with was a white supremacist one, about hatred and intolerance. Mine was about acceptance and tolerance. I was taken down by the host because it was bad for profits. Another podcast, ‘pushing back’, discusses the dangers of pornography such as a 17yo jacking off to porn. Their morality is not reality. (12:34 to 15:59)
Free speech
Rookiee: on the topic of NAMBLA, you don’t like them very much do you? Amadeus: you mean No Ass Must Be Left Alone. I don’t have a problem with them. I give them a bunch of shit, and Jeffrey tells me they are one of our biggest supporters. You want to fuck little kids? That is not we are all about. If I say what I want to say, it will cause hard feelings among people, because when you actually use free speech, it makes them uncomfortable. I don’t want to quit sure quality radio, but it just doesn’t fit into my life right now. Rookiee: but this doesn’t have anything to do with SQR, does it? Jeffrey has been on my podcast twice, so now is your chance to speak. (16:00 to 18:43)
SQR operation compromised?
Amadeus: I am not putting Jeffrey down as a person. I have great respect for what he is trying to do, but when you embark on such a venture as SQR, everything has to be perfect. You do not claim to your audience that no illegal activity is happening, when in reality you have child molesters involved in the operation. You are asking for trouble. Rookiee: are you talking about Boy Story? Amadeus: yes I am. Rookiee: I personally don’t see that Boy Story has done anything wrong because he hasn’t been convicted of child molestation. Amadeus: guilty or not, he is on the registry in the state of California. Rookiee: Boy Story has had a bunch of issues in his life. Society makes it is hard for someone with a criminal record to succeed in what remains of their life. Amadeus: there are always three sides to every story. Rookiee: true, left, right and what actually happened. Amadeus: I am not here to judge him. I will support him, but not if it hinders my lifestyle. (18:44 to 26:06)
Criminal record stigmatises
Rookiee: Another friend of mine intended to become involved with a youth freedom organisation, enabling youth to make their own choices in life. They wouldn’t accept him due to his criminal record. Problem arises when the most passionate people want to be involved in this area. Such people have either been wrongly accused, or have gone through hell, and rightly so, but have learned from it. In my opinion, there is no way that one can present a squeaky clean image in the cause we are fighting for. (26:07 to 26:56)
SQR fake arrest
Amadeus: one evening SQR Appy DJ’d before my DJ slot. I messaged him and said I wanted to fool around with the audience. Tell them I called you to say the police are at the door and there is a lot of hollering going on, in other words a parody. He played the part really well saying Amadeus will be late and doesn’t know whether he will be on the show or not. The police are at his door. I was in the chat room listening to Appy, and listeners began to flame me like if this was a joke, it was not funny. When they really do knock on your door, you won’t think it so funny. Rookiee: in my April fool podcast, I advised listeners to wipe their hard drives of podcast content in case the FBI discovered who was listening and then proceeding to charge them with an offence. The point of the fool was to draw their attention to the direction society seems to be headed. (26:57 to 29:35)
Outlawing erotic literature
Amadeus: I have a friend who writes for Nifty.org (discussed in episode 12). He actually develops story lines so I was keen to read his work, such as Eddie and the Axeman, featuring him and me as the protagonists. In the four years we have known each other they have passed laws where I live to outlaw stories that feature adult-minor eroticism. Rookiee: isn’t that unconstitutional? Amadeus: the law was added through on an unrelated education bill. (29:36 to 33:02)
Rookiee’s mailbag
Waffle
Indecency fines
Bastion: freedom of speech in movies and on tv. The Federal Communications Commission is changing its indecency fines. Its maximum used to be $32,000; now it is $325,000 per occurrence. Rookiee: what kind of occurrence would this be? Bastion: they don’t define things like that. It’s whatever they deem to be indecent. For example, the ‘without a trace’ show had an episode which caused CBS to be fined $7m, because every single affiliate was fined. There was supposed to be a teen orgy on the show, but there was nothing. They all had their clothes on and were just kissing each other. (45:19 to 47:19)
MPAA
Fine levied on New Line Cinema by the Movie Picture Association of America on the Texas chainsaw massacre trailer, because viewers are restricted to watching it between 10pm and 4am. It is very difficult to track down who is actually involved in the MPAA. The trailer got a green band, but the MPAA issued new instructions to New Line that it couldn’t be shown before anything that wasn’t rated R. New Line responded by asking whether it could be shown online. MPAA said sure, but only between 10pm to 4am. Rookiee recaps discussion around podshow topic in Pedologues episode 8. As soon as you hand over the rights to your podcast to a third party, you open yourself up to the morality police such as MPAA who can take you out very easily. How do MPAA handle youtube. A disclaimer says ‘no copyrighted material’. Yeah, right. What is fair use of copyrighted material on youtube? (47:20 to 57:58)
Infringing upon morality
Rookiee: if no-one cares about copyrighted material on youtube, why do people object to me discussing paedophilia on my podcasts, claiming that I am infringing on people’s rights? Amadeus: freedom of speech is only freedom of speech so long as it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s freedoms. Rookiee: but it is not. Amadeus: they feel it is infringing upon their morality. (57:59 to 58:49)
Waffle
Pedologues Episode 26 (30 August 2006) Rookiee, and Abraxas summary
Waffle
Abraxas story
Rookiee: what have you been doing since ep 3? Abraxas: I haven’t had a boyfriend in twenty-five years or so; a very boring life. Rookiee: when you say boyfriends, you mean any age, right? Abraxas: yes, ‘boy’ in the literal sense. A mutual loving relationship like the one I had where we were very happy together. Unfortunately, other people were not so happy. Rookiee: so you did your time, and in some ways, you are still doing your time. Abraxas: yes, due to the pariah laws in this country. (14:11 to 15:26)
Mechanics of fascism I
Abraxas: A link to a really good article was sent to me. It is on counterpunch.org and called ‘sexual fascism in progressive America’. The author goes by the pseudonym Pariah. It discusses how fascist states need to have a subculture to create societal pariahs, a despised subgroup that makes society feel better about itself, one to fear and to hate, whose very existence demands totalitarian state apparatus of surveillance and control applied to it. (15:27 to 17:04)
John Hopkins statistics
Fred Berlin from John Hopkins University sex disorders clinic, cites 0.1% of all sex offences in the US involve kidnap, rape, torture and murder. Less than 10% of all sex offenders re-offend, but recidivism is given as an excuse to impose draconian measures upon release. Around thirty children annually are abducted, raped and murdered by strangers, but three thousand are murdered in the family home by parents or family members. The media make it seem as if stranger abduction events happen all the time, but coverage of child murders in the home is minimal. Facts do not matter when hysteria prevails, and the media can make money from selling stories that reinforce societal fears. (17:05 to 18:46)
NBC’s schizophrenic dateline
Abraxas: it’s about ratings. For example, NBC’s Dateline show ‘to catch a predator’, recently did a piece on May K Letourneau and her husband Vili. This was a fairly balanced program, considering the crap Dateline usually broadcasts. I thought how schizophrenic of Dateline to treat the topic in such polarised ways across its shows. (18:47 to 19:48)
Are mid-teens children?
Abraxas: there was a case of a 21yo who had arranged to meet a supposed 15yo. Why should that even be a problem? I don’t understand that. He was obviously gay, and the teen was obviously not pre-pubescent. I know what the ages of consent are in this country and they are ridiculously high. Rookiee: in many other countries around the world, the 15yo would be an adult. (19:49 to 21:05)
Entrepreneurial 13yo pornographer
Rookiee: talking to Dylan Thomas from Boy Chat and SQR. We discussed a few ideas, such as: devising one sets of rules defining adulthood and childhood and fully-functioning citizenship requirements within a given society. In an agrarian society, a child entering puberty is expected to work on the land with adults. In an industrial society, adult responsibilities come later, once a certain education level is reached. In this information age, technological aptitude is reducing the age at which a child acquires adult capabilities. Justin Berry, the entrepreneurial 13yo pornographer, is a case in point. Do you think this phenomenon will be a catalyst for change? Abraxas: I see a modern world dominated by moralist anti-sex diktats promoting bigotry and fear, all courtesy of a US axis of evil burrowing its way into the affairs of foreign countries and cultures, where it has no business to be. In my opinion, I don’t see it getting any better any time soon; I see it getting worse. (21:06 to 26:04)
Different cultures comparison
Rookiee: I have nothing against marijuana use, and don’t consider it to be a moral offence to consume it. Talking to Lindsay Ashford about this topic, he called the US the evil empire. Abraxas: can’t disagree with that. Rookiee: he was in Prague for ten years, but moved on to South America. He found it better in many ways. Attitudes were far more accepting, more open, more hospitable, and less fearful. He told a story of walking down a street one evening when he saw a little girl in her home. They began to make faces at each other. The parents saw what was happening, and before he knew it, he had been invited into their home for a meal and wine. If this scenario played out in the US, someone would have called the police, and the media would have had a ball reporting on it. (26:05 to 28:36)
Bleeding over process
Abraxas: not only is the US government influencing other governments, country borders are becoming all American. Mexican border towns are becoming victims to this bleeding-over process where American media, American money and American politics infect foreign soils. Mexican society is inexorably becoming an extension of American society. (28:37 to 29:45)
Waffle
PNVD
Rookiee: I talked to Norbert de Jonge from PNVD last night. I wanted to know what was going on, following their discussions within Pedologue eps 22 and 22.5. Norbert wanted to dispel several myths. First, Ad van den Berg did not go into hiding. He was forced out of his home by vigilantes, egged on by the media. Second, their PNVD party is not a paedophile party. The have stated what they are on their website and in eps 22 and 23. The situation with PNVD continues to be fluid and transitional. Abraxas: in a democratic society, political parties must be given a voice no matter how outrageous. I have been following this topic on boy lover and girl lover boards. One thing that really irritates me is people who jump on them and demean them, or comment that it is a ‘no hope’ party. Seems to me we have a bucket full of negativity courtesy of the outside world; why should we also have to put up with hate from our own community. It really amazes me that this happens. It makes me question whether such people are genuine child lovers, or government agency trolls trying to destroy us. Let us try to get behind PNVD and support them. One comment I read on the boards was from someone who compared PNVD to NAMBLA. Such a comment could only have come from law enforcement; no child lover would have made it. (30:52 to 38:59)
Chat board problems
Rookiee: do you think the boards are being splintered by law enforcement. Abraxas: yes, undoubtedly. Not just that, but resistance from self-righteous paedophiles who are dead against contact of any sort with a child. I am of the opinion that boards are useless as far as getting anything done is concerned. Most of those complaining don’t do a damn thing. I joined a board that had members that were decided on changing the world. Unfortunately I got kicked off that board, because of my criminal record. Rookiee: it is just not possible to create a child love community without child lover members who have fallen fowl of the law at some point in their life. (39:00 to 44:42)
Entrapment
Abraxas: I can never figure out how someone can be convicted for propositioning a minor, when no minor involved. In reality, you are propositioning an adult who is pretending to be one. In any other crime, it would be entrapment and thrown out of court. Amazing what law enforcement get away with regarding our sexual minority group. Rookiee: no crime has been committed. We are talking about the law and commenting on it, not advocating illegal activity. (44:43 to 47:45)
Mechanics of fascism II
Abraxas: more from Pariah in CounterPunch. Estimates of more than thirty-five thousand children and adolescents convicted of sex offences and being required to register. But children are said to be asexual and have no interest in sex whatsoever. Rookiee: I am in favour of the state charging a minor as an adult. If they are considered to be adults, then the age of consent would need to be lowered accordingly. Abraxas: you would think so, however, you are dealing with people who are illogical and have no common sense. Rookiee: the same people would punish us just for having a paedosexuality. (47:46 to 49:56)
Pedologues under attack
Rookiee: are you familiar with Stacey Harp from Christian Active Media? She attacked the boy love blog I administer called ‘Pedastria, the boy love revival’. Stacey Harp says ‘the fact this blog exists is equivalent to when a child comes to its mother and says they are being molester, then the mother doesn’t do anything about it’. Abraxas: where do they get these analogies from? Rookiee: she riled her fan-base up and got them to pound on the blog. Suddenly the blog was gone. Someone had erased it. It was down for a while, but it is now back up with twenty-five bloggers, so we are louder than before. I am now under attack from vigilantes and hackers here. I have reviewed Google’s terms of service, and I see that I am protected from such attacks. Abraxas: such people feel they are immune from criticism and that society is on their side because tacit approval is given to behave illegally. Rookiee: I am well aware of high profile I have become. I found an FBI document that states Pedologues is a high profile paedophile website, whatever that means. They are shadow-criminalising me when I have done absolutely nothing wrong. In doing these podcasts, I have actually learnt a lot about myself. (49:57 to 55:44)
9yo SOs
In ep 20, talking with Old Saint Nick from IPCE, he said it’s not just a right that children should have sex, it is an actual physical biological need. It is society that has the problem, not us. Abraxas: what concerns me is those people who write laws that incriminate 9 year old kids and turn them into sex offenders, were doubtless guilty of the very same ‘offence’ at the very same age. All of us need to recognize who we are and what we are. There are very few child lovers out there who have not suffered to some degree in their lives because of what they are. (55:45 to 01:03:31)
Pedologues Episode 27 (3 September 2006) Rookiee, and Joe Cool summary
Boylover.net hierarchy
Joe: I am executive director of boylover.net. The board creators were Boylover, Loren and ELW. They have since resigned due to real life commitments. Loren wrote the rules and designed the board. Rookiee: what is the board hierarchy? Joe: buddy team does member support and fellowship. Mod team does board legality and rule enforcement. Senior team oversees mod and buddy teams, and advises on what should be upheld. Mod and buddy managers manage teams. Admin has specific focus on member security, registrations, and technical issues. There are two directors. We intend to add directors and create a committee. (01:22 to 11:14)
Board closed to public
Rookiee: when I first joined, I found it friendly and all forums were open. I didn’t have to register to view them. Now, one has to join to see any board. Joe: yes, unfortunately. With new software, the boards will open to the public. Currently, the existing server cannot handle the load. (11:15 to 12:09)
DDOS attacks
Joe: when we were originally attacked by somethingawful.com, we figured they were using repeated denial of service (DDOS) attacks on individual member pages. Attacks were stopped by closing the board to membership only. We are DDOS’d on an almost daily basis. Rookiee: once you go public with your new server, how will you combat attacks? Custom application code will defend us, so the system will be more secure and robust. (12:10 to 14:37)
Press coverage
Joe: everyone but us has been in the news. Main stream media ignores us because we are too big. We have 600,000 hits per month plus 35,000 registered users, 15% of which are active. Rookiee: how do you avoid being sued? Joe: we are just too big, plus we are not a corporation. (14:38 to 21:05)
Moderator behaviour
Rookiee: your mods are strict in what can be shown. How many moderators are there? Joe: roughly 80 including admin; all staff is over 108. Rookiee: how do you select and manage your staff? Joe: we take level-headed people plus we are not political. Staff must stay neutral, although mod emotions can get in the way. They are tasked with making decisions based on our rules. For the most part it works. (21:06 to 23:50)
Training
Rookiee: what training exists? Joe: in mod interviews, sample scenarios are provided. We pose questions, like ‘what would you do in this case?’ Before they start, there is a training room with threads with breaches. We see how they deal with these. Coaching is given if threads are not handled correctly. (23:51 to 24:34)
Illegal post handling
What happens with illegal posts? We abide by US law. For border line posts, a member has to self-edit. If they refuse, we edit or move it to a ‘cellar’ that only mods and admins can access. For clear breaches, they go to the cellar. If it is a top-five-rule breach, the member faces suspension. Rookie: are mods aware of what constitutes illegal pornography? Joe: yes. (24:35 to 26:34)
Legal obligations
Rookiee: do you report members? What happens to the picture? Joe: I am not sure what Dutch law is regarding a host server receiving such a photo, but we would destroy it. We do not report members as we have no means to trace them. Rookie: but IP addresses are obtainable. Joe: not if a proxy is used. Member information is confidential. Rookiee: who is liable? Joe: the member. A court case ten years ago established this. We are a foreign company, so Dutch laws apply. We are subject to US law for the boards the public can browse. If a foreign agency became involved, they would have to go through Interpol. If that happened, we would seek legal advice to protect member confidentiality. (26:35 to 31:39)
Internet jurisdiction
Rookiee: an international treaty was recently ratified by the senate. If a Netherlands host breaks US law, the FBI can petition them to extradite people. Joe: all I can say is good luck for getting cooperation. Rookiee: several countries cooperate with this treaty. I hear legal and civil rights groups are angry, as it removes state sovereignty. Joe: no-one should have jurisdiction over the internet. If we regulate information, what’s next? Burning books outside libraries? What thoughts should be outlawed? The US with its Christian morality is so bull-headed, it thinks it can dominate all. (31:40 to 34:09)
International government
Rookiee: we are headed towards international government. Joe: as a technical computer guy, I feel it should be treated as open source, and yet they propose to outlaw zeros and ones. Eventually, the internet will grow into its own society and will drive itself. I look at my own government and see gross inefficiency. They need to keep their hands off the internet. (34:10 to 38:29)
Internet censorship
Joe: some countries regulate the internet. Saudi Arabia folk cannot access our site for example. China hugely regulates the internet. I would prefer my private company controlling my access to the internet, rather than my government overseeing all I do. Rookiee: when the constitution was ratified in 1778 or 1779, the bill of rights stipulated government cannot interfere with citizen’s freedoms. What if private corporations tell you ‘no, our policy prevents us hosting your content’? Joe: this happened to us. We went through six hosts in seven months, costing us $4000. As hosts received complaints and saw their networks DDOS’d, they dropped us. We bought our own server in Holland. This opened doors for us. Rookiee: you are still at the mercy of corporations. Joe: I don’t see government being any better. Rookiee: Free Spirits have their own ISP and are independent. Joe: we found a data centre willing to host us and sell us band width. (38:29 to 42:41)
Federal vs State
Rookiee: what if The Netherlands is subjected to ‘Bush control’? Joe: then we are fucked. Rookiee: the world sees the US as a bully. Joe: the Federal government has gone astray. Originally, control was 95% state and 5% federal. That has flipped. Citizens are totally out of touch. Government wants citizens to remain stupid. Rookiee: as I got into podcasting, I found corporations limited my freedom of speech. Joe: freedom of speech doesn’t exist anymore. I was arrested for saying ‘asshole’ and ‘bullshit’ to a security officer. I got the case dismissed, but I had to post $1200 bail. We are the laughing stock of the world. Free speech my ass. (42:42 to 50:42)
Child pornography
Joe: re free speech, the child pornography topic is one of hot debate. Once information is online, it is impossible to get rid of. Why spend millions of dollars removing something that is there forever? Child pornography possession crime is thought crime. Rookiee: some say abuse is propagated by creating demand for it. Joe: supply and demand only works in a capitalist society where tangible and renewable assets exist. Rookiee: others say merely viewing child pornography is illegal. Joe: most people do not differentiate between viewing and possession. Mere possession harms no-one. The US government is at war with inanimate objects. (50:43 to 59:10)
US intelligence gathering
Joe: intelligence agencies have this great philosophy: ‘if only we can gather enough intelligence and databases cross-referenced to each other, then we will find terrorists and fix the problem’. It is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous. There is no solution to preventing terrorism, drugs, or child pornography. Law enforcement fixates on problems here and abroad, but have no way to solve them. Rookiee: terrorists and paedophiles have become synonymous, why is this? Joe: every society needs a scapegoat to hate. Fifty years ago it was communists and homosexuals. (59:11 to 01:02:54)
Community political responsibility
Rookiee: what do you do with people who openly talk about harming children? Joe: people should exercise restraint and consider how they are perceived by saying it. They should ask: ‘am I incriminating myself, am I doing something illegal, am I putting others in jeopardy’. That is a good place to draw the line. Rookiee: I am concerned for our community. Gays back in the 1970s had to shape up to further their cause, to gain protected status plus DSM exemption. We should be doing that. Joe: do we have a political responsibility? Yes, but I don’t see things getting better. I look at NAMBLA and see the public perception of it equating with man-boy sex. They have hindered more than helped us. Rookiee: the lewd comments we make, imply we are a threat to children. Joe: if we are to gain some acceptance, we need to distance ourselves from the sexual issue. Rookiee: politically, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Are we perverts? Joe: yes. (01:02:55 to 01:11:17)
Casualties of repression
Joe: many new people to our community have never expressed themselves sexually, or talked to anyone else, especially not in a positive way. They come into our fold like kids in a candy store. The board gives them that opportunity. It is difficult to moderate them until they are confident with whom they are. Rookiee: the repression of our sexuality causes us to be this way. Joe: in many ways, yes. (01:11:18 to 01:14:40)
Benefit of boards
Rookiee: society would say: ‘boards promote child abuse’. Joe: I don’t see it that way. They help individuals cope/find themselves. I realise boards do not help us in the eyes of society. I found boards when I was 17. I considered myself to be a monster, after six months, I realised I wasn’t. I was normal, and, through no fault of my own, had this attraction. I cannot control my attraction, but I can and do control my actions. Rookiee: what do you say to those claiming boards incite people to crime? Joe: Opinions are like ass holes; everyone has one. There are some people who are so bigoted and prejudiced they will always think the way they do, no matter what you say. (01:14:41 to 01:25:56)
Pedologues Episode 28 (8 September 2006) Rookiee, Chelsea, Mom and James summary
Introductions
Chelsea: I am 13yo, and this is my mom. Mom: hi. Rookiee: I am stunned. Last night I was introduced to two people who apparently know a paedophile, and don’t give a shit. (01:49 to 03:21)
Rescuing James
Rookiee: how did you meet James? Mom: in the street. I realised he was all over the place and I thought I could improve his world. I got him better housing. At that time, I knew his background, and knew he had done penance to society. I also knew the young girl concerned and her mom from way back. Rookiee: you were aware he was low. Mom: yes, he was in a bad place. I knew he deserved way better. I reached out and he accepted my assistance. Rookiee: you knew his character? Mom: yes. Rookiee: for our listeners, James featured on episode 24 with John. (03:22 to 06:43)
Chelsea
Rookiee: Chelsea, how do you get on with James; you seem to like him? Chelsea: he’s fun. We play card games. Rookiee: you know about him, and you’re cool with it? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: some people would say he’s taking advantage of you, grooming you and will turn you into one of his slaves. You have two eyes and a brain, what would you say to them? Chelsea: I think it is retarded to judge a person without even knowing them. Just because someone thinks differently doesn’t mean they are weird. Rookiee: ‘thinks differently’? Chelsea: well he is a paedophile. Rookiee: what does a paedophile think? Chelsea: as I know it, he likes much younger girls. Rookiee: what’s different about him and a person who likes someone your mom’s age? Chelsea: well he cares about young girls, and wouldn’t want for them to be hurt. Mom: Chelsea, what makes a paedophile bad? Chelsea: someone who hurt others. A good paedophile is one that cares. Mom: there is good and bad in all people. I prefer the term predator paedophile; they don’t care about a child’s welfare, feelings or emotions. I understand all children are sexual to some level. Some people will exploit that, but that is not the norm. (06:44 to 10:19)
Parents as true paedophiles
Mom: I wish all parents were true paedophiles. This world would be better if children were treated with respect, listened to, and given quality time. Rookiee: do you mean parents that are sexually attracted to kids. Mom: I am talking about showing care and interest. Chelsea: the ‘James’ kind of paedophile. Mom: if a mother is truly interested, she will dote on and spend time with her kids. If not, children will be treated like puppets. (10:20 to 11:56)
Hysteria and fear
Rookiee: why do people hate paedophilia? Why don’t they want them anywhere near their kids? Mom: media hysteria. Parents are told not to let a child be unaccompanied until they are 18. ‘How dare you let your child travel on a bus on its own, with all those creeps and problems out there.’ Rookiee: is the fear warranted? Mom: it’s no more risky than a woman going on a date with a man. Education is power. With mine, there is nothing we don’t talk about. The topic of paedophilia is just one more item on the list. (11:57 to 15:09)
Openness/education
Rookiee: you knew about paedophilia before James came along? Mom: yes, both good and bad. Rookiee: were you abused as a youngster? Mom: yes. Rookiee: did you have a consensual relationship? Mom: yes. There were two different people. I got no education from my mother; my home life was dysfunctional. I was sexualised by the bad experience and therefore receptive to the second, especially as it was someone who cared, plus I looked up to him. Rookiee: he allowed you free will? Mom: yes. By then, I was ready, and I knew he would never hurt me. I still have contact with him. Rookiee: people may say: ‘but this is why you allow your child to be put in harm’s way.’ Mom: as our house is open for communication, she would talk to me. We are a team. Rookiee: I have a 12yo friend, Aqua, who is gay and has been on Pedologues several times. His mom treats him as you treat Chelsea. Both of you are open when talking about yourself and your experiences. Aqua has been online for a number of years already, and is technically and socially savvy. If some creep makes advances online, he is sufficiently empowered to say ‘get lost’. (15:10 to 20:52)
Flirtatious girls
Chelsea: Mom said the only reason James comes to my house to play cards and stuff, was because he was a paedophile. One time, I danced a little, fixed my hair up, and put a shorter shirt on, so I learnt how to use my powers over him. Mom: it was an absolutely priceless moment. Ironically, she was unaware of the effect she was having. Rookiee: it’s probably innate when women act like that in front of a man. Mom: what about you? Rookiee: I really don’t know. Walking down a street, I am more intent looking out for boys, I have to admit. Maybe it is because boys have more scope to act naturally, whereas girls are a little less genuine. (20:53 to 25:25)
Hypocritical society
Mom: parents put girls on a pedestal by saying: ‘Aren’t they beautiful/sexy?’ Trophy girls are urged to model skimpy bikinis, but, in the same breath they say: ‘don’t you dare look’. The media is guilty of prostituting photos of girls dressed-up and posing as models, turning them into adults before time. Rookiee: boy photos are of boys just being themselves. Mom: for girls, the latest fad is hip-hugger jeans. The front ... Wow! No room for a zipper, and don’t dare look behind else you will realise Plumber’s Butt has become popular. Rookiee: isn’t it better for people to be more open and exhibitionistic? Go to Africa and virtually nothing is worn. (25:26 to 29:06)
Chastity
Mom: a boy should have sufficient sex education before considering marriage. What about a girl? My dad said: ‘there are two types of girl in this world: the ones you marry, and the ones you have fun with. Which do you want to be?’ By the time she is twenty she should still be a virgin. Rookiee: chastity trumps all. Society doesn’t allow a girl to control her own destiny. It either over-protects them or exploits them. (29:07 to 30:59)
Express yourself
Mom: allowing children to speak their minds is important. I did this, but my family objected. They felt the child was talking back. The difference is a tough one for a parent to navigate. Rookiee: it is ironic to see parents managing children as objects with no free will. Mom: mothers may as well say: ‘I have a right to raise my child my way, after all, I was the one who spread my legs, so she is mine.’ Rookiee: what is the difference between talking back and talking to? Mom: talking back is: ‘no, I am not going to do that!’ in response to ‘I want you to do that right now.’ In this scenario, negativity is promoted at the expense of respect. (31:00 to 33:59)
Mother-daughter relationship
Rookiee: what do you think of Mom? Chelsea: she is crazy. She is open, and that is cool. Rookiee: would she stop some guy taking advantage of you? Chelsea: of course. She wouldn’t just let it happen. Rookiee: if James took advantage, she would step up and say get the fuck away from my kid. Chelsea: yes. Mom: have I put you at risk by bringing James into our world? Chelsea: you didn’t know everything about him when you first met him, but you knew he was safe and nothing untoward would happen. Mom: does James ever creep you out? Be honest: Chelsea: yes, but it is only in joking manner. I know it is not serious. (34:00 to 36:31)
James and girls
Rookiee: there is a girl lover called Lindsay Ashford, who is ‘out’. When he encounters a girl, he makes funny faces at them. The girl just loves it. James, is that common among girl lovers? James: in my case, I make funny faces because I run out of things to say. Rookiee: what is your general age of attraction? James: 8 to 10. Rookiee: Appy from SQR mentioned he was into boys before the age of puberty. He said teens were like a different species. James: as soon as they get bumps, they are too scary to deal with. When I first met Chelsea, she was 11 and I thought she was 14. (36:32 to 41:51)
Waffle
Sex
Rookiee: let’s go completely politically incorrect and talk sex. What do you know about sex Chelsea? Chelsea: ‘when a mummy and a daddy really love each other ...’ Mom: ‘there’s a stork’. Rookiee: Chelsea, are you into older guys? Chelsea: I like guys my age. Rookiee: would you consider yourself straight? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: are you attracted to James? Chelsea: no. Rookiee: what do you see James as? Chelsea: he is like a neighbour. Rookiee: so you have no desire for a relationship with him. James: do you have any friends that are into older gentlemen, and might find me cute? Chelsea: I do know someone called Ella who is 16yo. James: that’s scary. (45:21 to 50:54)
Canada’s AOC laws
Rookiee: the AOC will be raised to 16yo in Canada (has been 14 for a century or so). At almost 14, how do you feel about that? Chelsea: If I was into all that stuff, I would be rather disappointed. I don’t care tbh. Rookiee: are you capable of making up your own mind about having sex with someone. Chelsea: yes, oc. If I wanted to, I would just do it. Rookiee: do you understand the ramifications, like STIs? Chelsea: yes. Rookiee: do you feel prepared? Chelsea: no, I am not. I am just not into it. Rookiee: what if people claim you don’t have a mind of your own? Chelsea: well screw them! I have this big thing on my neck called a head, so I can think for myself. Mom: that is beautiful. I know 13yo kids with no history of abuse, no coercion, no grooming, but are totally interested in sex. Such kids would say: ‘I am going to do with my body what I want to’. Rookiee: will raising the consent age protect Chelsea more? Mom: no. Rookiee: will it make kids dumber as a result? Mom: no, it will have the opposite effect. It’s going to push the rebel button. (50:55 to 56:51)
Hilarity
Pedologues Episode 29 (15 September 2006) Rookiee, Oh Hell Yeah, and Craig summary
Gene therapy
Rookiee: what you got to say? Oh Hell Yeah: SQR discussion about gene therapy the other night, and whether it should be used to remove specific defects before a child is born. All very well but people don’t think about potential Jurassic Park consequences. Diversity originates from genetic mutation. So, where does one draw the line? Rookiee: what if paedophiles get classified as genetically defective? Oh Hell Yeah: exactly! Rookiee: what if mature women can no longer conceive due to a fucked-up environment, and only pubescent can? If paedophiles had previously been removed from the gene-pool, and straights couldn’t get it up, then humanity would be completely screwed. (00:56 to 04:23)
Eradicate undesirables
Craig: this genetic manipulation could go full Hitlerian where a dictator decrees: ‘dispose of all undesirables genetically. Oh Hell Yeah: they do that now by saying we are the undesirables and should be exterminated. I recall an episode of ‘Outer Limits’ where pubescent kids and younger were the only ones to survive a fertility-neutering toxin and where society decided to direct the kids to breed. You have no idea how much I would like this to happen. I would take this predicament and push it right into society’s face. Rookiee: there are good biological reasons why we are this way. Look how kids are treated in today’s society. They are starved of love and affection. Oh Hell Yeah: people prefer to be top dog. White man first slaughtered Red Indians for being inferior, then Blacks were inferior, then women were inferior, then homosexuals were inferior, now paedophiles are inferior. Those minorities now all have equal status. Same will be true of us in the future. It’s only a matter of time. (04:24 to 11:59)
Oh Hell Yeah introduction
Rookiee: Oh Hell Yeah, you have been in the community since when? Oh Hell Yeah: 1999. What led me here was a story I read on Nifty.org called ‘Double Trouble’. It was a beautiful story and I cried my eyes out because it made me realise who I was. I knew I was a boy lover since I was an 8yo. I also knew if I told anyone about this, I would be hung, most likely by my own family, so I hid the story until I reached 19. The story was written by Boy Chills. Things have come to a sorry pass with a lot of the boards. Not too long ago, I became aware of SQR. I have also trawled through Nifty.org for diamonds in the rough. (12:00 to 14:33)
NAMBLA
Rookiee: besides the boards and a few activist sites, there is very little else available. Oh Hell Yeah: apart from NAMBLA making a stand only to be squished, most boy lovers are scared to organise. Rookiee: NAMBLA is made out to be only about sex, but that is not the case at all. Oh Hell Yeah: their website is out of date. Rookiee relates the period of time NAMBLA were around at a time when gays divorced themselves from chicken hawk behaviour. Around 1990, when gays forged ahead with their agenda, NAMBLA was still included on gay and lesbian coalitions. Law makers pointed this out, so NAMBLA ended up being removed from these coalitions. Essentially, the gays pushed the boy lover community into obscurity. Rookiee refers to the open nature of the meetings held by NAMBLA, and the undercover FBI entrapment, as discussed in episode 16. The absence of technical nous within the NAMBLA organisation meant the internet was not exploited to further activism. Even now they just produce magazines for their members. (14:34 to 23:05)
Activism reluctance
Oh Hell Yeah: that’s the problem I see in the boy lover community. One group may speak out, then get told by some entity: ‘No!’ This forces them to relent. We need someone with fire to be indignant when told ‘No’. That person needs to confront their accusers, and tell them they are being lazy in not finding out more about the nature of paedophilia. The accuser also needs to be taken to task for hating someone they don’t even know. Rookiee: there are just not enough people willing to do this. Laws are becoming ludicrously draconian so no-one wants to take a risk. Individuals have to be whiter than white to undertake activism. Oh Hell Yeah: I don’t condone child porn, but I can understand why people have it. If a straight man is denied a woman, one of two things will happen. He either has to be a monk, or he is going to find an avenue of release. (23:06 to 27:59)
Brass eye
Rookiee: Chris Morris, a UK satirist created and presented a ‘Paedogeddon’ special, aired in 2001, as part of the satirical Brass Eye tv series. It tackled paedophilia and the moral panic in parts of the British media. In character Morris said: ‘if you make something a problem, it will become a problem.’ Just because something doesn’t square with society, it doesn’t mean that something is wrong. It just means society is fucked up. Oh Hell Yeah: just because you are taught something is right, and everyone around you also tells you it is right, doesn’t mean to say it makes it right. (28:00 to 29:04)
Siding with the enemy
Oh Hell Yeah: I guarantee there are a lot of boy lovers out there who are teaming up with people like Stacy Harp, simply because it takes the spotlight off them. This is similar behaviour to that of the gay community ousting the boy lover community. (29:05 to 30:02)
Rookiee plays a clip from Paedogeddon
Inaccurate stereotyping
Oh Hell Yeah: that brings up an interesting thing. People automatically assume that if you are a paedophile, you would want to jump on any child regardless of their age, and do it anywhere. Rookiee: it is called perception. It is not based in any reality. The media magnifies any instance of a boy lover misbehaving into a stereotype. Craig: the media call it predation. This has little to do with sexual attraction. (31:30 to 33:15)
Wikipedia and hypocrisy
Rookiee: a ‘child love movement’ article got changed to ‘paedophilia activism’. I tried to explain to them this was an inaccurate name for the article. Their title communicated rape and murder, not love. They applied a negative connotation to the piece. An article on abortion has the title ‘pro-choice’. It doesn’t say ‘murdering babies’. It is like talking to a brick wall. Oh Hell Yeah: it is OK to accuse a whole minority group of being molesters, and simultaneously for a woman to spread her legs wide and dispose of multiple babies. After all, society will say in her defence, that is her body, therefore it is her choice. Rookiee: both are consistent with the idea that children are property. Oh Hell Yeah: exactly! The children of celebrities have become fashion accessories. They say we are using kids when in fact it is they that use kids. Rookiee: Hollywood parents pimp out their kids for profit. Ethics flew out of the window. (33:16 to 38:21)
What causes paedophilia?
Oh Hell Yeah: two most popular reasons. It is either a mental illness, or we chose it. Ask a gay adult whether he just woke up one day and chose his sexuality. Then ask him, whether he has an erection whenever he sees a good looking guy in the street. He will answer no to both questions. Rookiee: it’s never a conscious decision; it’s always what the body wants. (38:22 to 42:41)
Waffle
Paedophilia versus religion
Oh Hell Yeah: no religious person can show you their ‘bible’ and tell you ‘this was handed to me by God who told me “this is my word, live by it”’. Rookiee: any Christian is against paedophiles. I have never heard Stacy Harp quote from her bible that paedophilia is bad. Crimes against children are covered by the bible, but nowhere does it denounce a loving, caring relationship. Oh Hell Yeah: human beings wrote these books, so why should we believe them when they tell us it is the word of God. Rookiee: there are too many contradictions between the testaments to believe they originated from a single God. Christians might say it is open to interpretation, but whose interpretation is correct. The other point, according to some, is that the bible should be taken literally. A further point raised by Old Saint Nick was that Mary was married off at 8yo. Is that not paedophilia? There was likely no demarcation between child and adult back then, particularly as life expectancy was so short. This suggests no concept of paedophilia existed at the time of Jesus. (43:43 to 52:52)
Immaculate conception
Oh Hell Yeah: I recall a Muslim friend of mine trying to convert me to Islam. He asked: ‘what are they telling you when they say: ‘Jesus, the only begotten son of God’. The dictionary tells us ‘begotten’ implies a single part of sexual reproduction. If this is the case, how did Mary, who was a virgin, give birth? Rookiee: that means the Immaculate Conception was a paedophile relationship. How do we know how God views sex. Oh Hell Yeah: I guarantee that those against boy lovers are devout Christians who hold to the idea that God is infallible, and yet the same people claim paedophilia is a mistake. This is an obvious contradiction. (52:53 to 55:14)
Waffle
Pedologues Episode 30 (18 September 2006) Rookiee, Marthijn, Norbert summary
PNVD update
Rookiee: we last talked in episode 22 on June 26. What has happened since? Marthijn: we have had a lot of media attention. Some political parties are trying to eradicate us. They want our party to be made illegal. This has prompted a court case, but we are still a legal party. (00:58 to 02:51)
Media
Norbert: we appeared on tv and have done interviews. Focus was not on issues in our manifesto, rather on the topics of paedophilia and child sexuality, and our private lives. They parade us as freaks for entertainment. This just reinforces public prejudice. Rookiee: they are keen to maximise shock value. Norbert: some of the feedback expressed surprise we actually exist. Marthijn: we hope to be given air time to discuss our political program in a less hysterical, more mature way. (02:52 to 07:52)
Court cases
Norbert: the first case involved a group of people determined to make us illegal. The judge ruled we had a basic right to exist. Our first win enabled us to continue. The second case related to my university refusing me access onto campus. A hearing was conducted at the university, and I lost. We intend to fight this decision at a higher level. Rookiee: what were the grounds for the decision? Norbert: the law says you have to state you disagree with the university decision. They then establish a commission to reconsider their original decision. We did this, but it had no effect. (07:53 to 10:39)
The Hague
Marthijn: we attended a press conference at The Hague right next to the prime minister’s office. He gave his weekly press conference. I said “Can I ask you a question?” He responded: “No, I don’t have time.” He didn’t like us being in The Hague right next to his office. We emailed every Dutch political party asking them to condemn the hate mail we received. We received no responses. (10:39 to 12:20)
570 signatures of support
Norbert: a Dutch documentary maker is following us, so some events are on film. One such is us on Utrecht streets asking people to sign and support our right to be election candidates. We need around 570 signatures to make this happen. Far right parties claim that this will be a list of paedophiles, so people are afraid to sign. We have around 100 signatures, but need more. Marthijn: the media is failing to condemn right wing groups, so they are failing to uphold democracy. Norbert: such groups say freedom of speech is irrelevant because these are paedophiles. Rookiee: if any unwanted anomaly appears, it gets ostracised, silenced and made to go away. (12:21 to 18:39)
Pro-paedophilia document
Marthijn: twenty years ago in Holland, similar opinions were aired politically. Rookiee: now public perceptions are different. Norbert: we have to remind people of political history. We published a several-hundred page document, discussing paedosexuality, child sexuality, and the pro-paedophilia laws established in the past. This document is simply being ignored. (18:40 to 20:24)
Incestuous media and government
Rookiee: what has changed since then? Marthijn: newspapers seek to maximise circulation. If they publish a story readers may not like, potential revenue is lost. Decline in media objectivity began in the 1990s. Politically correct main-stream media and government are joined at the hip. The smaller media are more receptive, and have published interesting articles. Rookiee: it sounds similar to the podcasting world. Corporate media prevents alternative views from being heard. Marthijn: if a mainstream editor authors an alternative view, he lasts no more than a few seconds. (20:25 to 27:42)
Damages our image
Norbert: we are trying to open a bank account. None want us as customers. We have been forced to contact ten banks, asking the same question. The same thing goes with internet providers. They claim it is to do with public perception, which is code for you will destroy our image. (27:43 to 28:39)
PNVD website
Rookiee: if anyone wants to find out about your work, where are you? Marthijn: our website is pnvd.nl, but it is all in Dutch. About one-quarter has been translated; people are working on it. Rookiee: what interviews have you done? Norbert: visit our website and select ‘weblock’; that will take you to ‘films’. The interviews are mainly in English as many non-Dutch countries have sought us. Marthijn: the US pays no attention to us. (28:40 to 31:34)
Paedophilia is hate speech
Rookiee: my podcast was initially included on podcast alley, but blackmail threats were sent to the Dutch entrepreneur, Adam Curry, because of this. They wanted Pedologues references to be removed. A Nazi white supremacist podcast was also a target. Threats warned he would be reported to outlets such as CNN for broadcasting hate speech. Adam then published a neutral statement on his own podcast saying he reserved the right to exclude any podcast for any reason. He emphasised his liberal Dutch upbringing and the value of free speech. It is ironic that paedophiles would have been systematically sent to concentration camps along with Jews. Norbert: we were similarly accused of being a threat to democracy. It is projection. Marthijn: there was a famous guy in The Netherlands willing to create Star of David insignia patches for our court appearance. Instead we decided upon smiley patches with the words ‘Friends of Children’. Rookiee: that was unlikely to have had the same effect though. Marthijn: the public are really surprised when we mention the Jews in connection with our experiences. They say we are shameless for doing so. They really have no clue what is going on. (31:35 to 38:39)
Support from homosexuals?
Marthijn: I hope the Jews and homosexuals out there can make the comparison. Rookiee: are homosexuals sympathetic or do they side with the general public? Marthijn: they are more tolerant for sure, but they fear this will bring them into disrepute once more, so they remain in the shadows. In the media, gays are dead set against us. Norbert: there is a very good article called ‘defence of paedosex equates to gay cause’. It is on the Martijn website. It explains why gays should support us. (38:40 to 40:12)
Party deadlines
Rookiee: is the reason why people call you a paedophile party because you are involved in the Martijn association? Marthijn: both Norbert and I wrote the party manifesto, but we wanted two other non-paedophiles to join us. We located candidates, but they were too afraid to accept our offer. Rookiee: what are your next steps as far as public communication? Marthijn: we are available to discuss our manifesto content. Norbert: what we have done so far has been beneficial. One of our goals has been met, namely to initiate debate on topics that have been neglected for way too long. The lack of signatures mentioned earlier is a big problem. We need a minimum of 570 by 10 October to participate in the elections in late November. Without these, we try again four years later. Perhaps people should sign purely to uphold democracy given politicians are trying to destroy us. (40:13 to 47:04)
Defence against fascism
Rookiee: how do you address the negative perception? It may get worse. Norbert: it cannot get any worse. You have to give it a try, show your face and demonstrate you are a human being. If you do nothing, the concentration camps will be built for all of us. Prisons are already concentration camps with suicides and murders. Rookiee: historically other minority groups have suffered. Norbert: that is why we have to speak up. By calling paedophiles monsters, they are winning. Once they win, another minority group will fall victim. If we stop asking for more, they will take everything. Other minority groups should be supporting our right to speak up. Rookiee: I wish you the best and hope things improve for you. If you are seen as a paedophile party, is that such a bad thing? Marthijn: no-one will vote for a single-issue party. (47:05 to 52:56)
Coming out
Marthijn: Rookiee, why don’t you use your real name here? Do you support people emerging from the closet? Rookiee: I am afraid to. Marthijn: when one person comes out, then you get a lot of hate mail. When hundreds do it, there is less to be afraid of. Rookiee: I am not ashamed of admitting I am afraid, and of having insufficient funds for a safety net. Child lovers in the US are not robust enough to stand on their own two feet. Our community is in disarray. The majority can barely acknowledge their own sexuality. Norbert: I disagree. The majority know exactly who and what they are. Rookiee: the majority do not consider belonging to a community, or having a voice. Marthijn: people must form a group to change their situation. Rookiee: anonymity allows people to conceal who they are. The only way they can come out is online. Norbert: no, this is the only one they choose to come out. Marthijn: a lot of child lovers are in hiding. They are afraid when we are so open, to the point that they are against us. (52:57 to 01:01:04)
KP neuters activism
Norbert: well we are out there doing interviews, but who else does the same in their own language? Nobody. Rookiee: the lack of face to face communication is a problem, also dissident opinions. Norbert: we do want changes in our society to allow sexual expression by children, including loving physical intimacy with older persons if and when they choose to. Everyone in our community should agree with that. Rookiee: some do, some don’t. Some people say we have sufficient and don’t need more rights. Marthijn: they are lying to themselves. Rookiee: IMO, there is no BL community. Norbert: there is! People who look at pictures don’t speak up because they know the police will pursue them. They are happy and egoistic. Rookiee: they are living in a fantasy world. How far will we allow ourselves to be pushed around before the elastic snaps? (01:01:05 to 01:05:54)