Testimony: Adult Male with Minor Female

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Man-Girl | Man-Boy | Woman-Minor Minor-initiated | Among minors Nonphysical childhood sexuality Adult attraction to minors
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1770s

• Madame Lavoisier: At the age of thirteen Marie-Anne received a marriage proposal from the Count d’Amerval, who was nearly three times her age. Jacques Paulze tried to object to the union, but received threats about losing his job with the Ferme Générale. To indirectly thwart the marriage, Jacque Paulze made an offer to one of his colleagues to ask for his daughter’s hand instead. This colleague was Antoine Lavoisier, a French nobleman and scientist. Lavoisier accepted the proposition, and he and Marie-Anne were married on 16 December 1771. Lavoisier was about 28.

1830s

• Edgar Allen Poe, and his 13-year-old wife, Virginia

  Returning to Baltimore, Poe secretly married Virginia, his cousin, on September 22, 1835. She was 13 at the time, though she is listed on the marriage certificate as being 21. Reinstated by White after promising good behaviour, Poe went back to Richmond with Virginia and her mother. He remained at the Messenger until January 1837. During this period, Poe claimed that its circulation increased from 700 to 3,500. He published several poems, book reviews, critiques, and stories in the paper. On May 16, 1836, he had a second wedding ceremony in Richmond with Virginia Clemm, this time in public. One evening in January 1842, Virginia showed the first signs of consumption, now known as tuberculosis, while singing and playing the piano. Poe described it as breaking a blood vessel in her throat. She only partially recovered. References: (Meyers, 1992, Edgar Allan Poe: His Life and Legacy. Silverman, 1991, Edgar A. Poe: Mournful and Never-Ending Remembrance. Hervey, 1927, The Works of Edgar Allan Poe).

1850s

Charles Lutwidge Dodgson and Alice Lidell

1950s

• While in Friedberg, Elvis Presley met 14-year-old Priscilla Beaulieu. They would eventually marry after a seven-and-a-half-year courtship

1970s

• Floyd Martinson in his book "Infant and Child Sexuality" 1973

  Martinson quotes another's experience: "There was only one bed in our hotel room, a double one which I shared with my father that night. As it turned out, my father came back very late that night, after drinking quite heavily. I had never seen him drunk before. He got ready for bed and warned me before he got in that he was used to sleeping with mother and that he hoped he would not bother me. He started to make love to me, not knowing what he was doing. I did, however, but liked the sensation and I let it continue for awhile--it seemed like hours, but it was only a matter of minutes. One way that it affected me was to cause me to wish again to have the same sensations I had that night which led me to masturbation."

1980s

• Two accounts from the research of Frits Bernard, as quoted in Paedophilia: The Radical Case[1] 1980
  • "Perhaps you cannot imagine this but when I was 12 I was very much in love with a man of 50 and he with me. I don't know who made the first move but we stroked each other and experienced sexuality together. It relaxed me wonderfully. One day my parents found out and the police were called in. The examination was terrible; I denied it and denied it again. Then I gave in. My older friend was arrested. My parents, after my forced confession, made out a formal complaint. Nothing could be of help any more. I have never been able to forget this. It wasn't just. It could have been such a beautiful memory. I am married and have four children. I would not object to their having sexual contacts with adults. I regard it as positive." (This account was presented at the International Conference on Love and Attraction, and is reprinted in Love and attraction: an international conference, p. 501.)
  • "I had an experience with an adult man when I was hardly twelve years old but the circumstances were not such that I look back on them with horror. On the contrary, I have very fine memories of the first, though rather bizarre, acquaintance with sex, and what happened eight years ago has had no bad consequences. I have no trauma about it and have become neither oversexed nor frigid. All that happened was that I learned, at a very early age, how a man and girl can satisfy each other, and obtained practical sexual instruction by means of which I did not have to learn from a book what a naked man looks like, how he gets an erection, ejaculation, masturbation, and so on. In the circumstances that surrounded my case there was no question of rape. He was a darling, and as we say, "opportunity made the thief" and I instinctively made use of my art of seduction (although, naturally, I did not understand this until afterwards) which is decidedly a challenging attitude demonstrated by us women at an early age, especially when at that age, you spot that a man looks at you as though you were no longer a child. [...] I look back on it now as an odd but fine first experience; in fact I liked it so much that, when I went home, I asked if I could come and "play Eva" (as he called it) again. [...] It certainly has done me no harm."

• Sexologist Joan A. Nelson in Children and Sex, on her relationship with an adult cousin at 8 years of age December, 1981

  Nelson's relationship marked "the happiest period of [her] life." "When I was a child I experienced an ongoing incestuous relationship that seemed to me to be caring and beneficial in nature. There were love and healthy self-actualization in what I perceived to be a safe environment. Suddenly one day I discerned from playground talk at school that what I was doing might be "bad". Fearing that I might, indeed, be a "bad" person, I went to my mother for reassurance. The ensuing traumatic incidents of that day inaugurated a 30-year period of psychological and emotional dysfunction that reduced family communication to mere utilitarian process and established severe limits on my subsequent developmental journey."

  Full citation: Nelson, J. A. (1982). "The impact of incest: Factors in self-evaluation," in L. L. Constantine & F. M. Martinson (Eds.), Children and Sex: New Findings, New Perspectives. Boston: Little, Brown & Co. Quoted in PAN 11, p. 31, and here and here

• Little Girls and Sex: A Glimpse at the World of the "Baby Pro" by J.A. Inciardi February 21, 1985

  Reports testimony of pre-pubescent sex workers in the United States:

  • 11 year-old Julie: "A hand job takes less than two minutes. The old fart is usually already hard when I go in there, and it isn't long before they shoot their load. Twenty bucks for a two-minute "local" [masturbating a male client] isn't a bad deal."
  • 10 year-old Laura: "Giving head isn't the most fun thing I ever did, but it was never scary either. Someone was always there to see that nothing went wrong and so that nobody would hurt me, and then I'd get some nice presents or get taken out somewhere so it was worth it. Now I'm used to it and the spending money is real nice."
  • 8 year-old Chris: "Her primary activity has been oral sex, which she says she enjoys."

• Loving Boys, Volume One 1986
  • "In the archives of the Brongersma Foundation there is one tape recording made by a man during intimate play between himself and a twelve-year-old, and a second, recorded later, with an eight-year-old girl-friend. It is evident that the children enjoy this play very much; one can hear how they insist on more advanced sexual activities and implore the man to insert his penis, which he refuses to do." (p. 58)
  • "A fourteen-year-old French girl wrote in her diary in 1978, after having slept with a 47-year-old man, 'This was the most marvellous day of my life, the most beautiful Christmas gift. Everything I did was deliberate, and everything that happened was at my initiative.' Unfortunately the girl's parents, after reading these pages, succeeded in having the man who gave their daughter this wonderful experience sent to prison. The feelings of the child were of no importance." (p. 58)

1990s

• R. Andrew Nilsen. (1992). Intergenerational Intimacy, in Empathy, Volume 3, Number 1, pp. 95-97.

  "A girl of 10 with a man of 39 said: "I love seeing his body, he's so powerful and I enjoy kissing him all over." (p. 95).

• Blanche D'Alpuget, (January 1993). The Taboo of Child Sexuality, in Australian Magazine, 30-31, p. 14. Feminist author Beatrice Faust (1995, p. 82) describes D'Alpuget's experience, the writer and wife to longest-serving Australian Labor Prime Minister Bob Hawke, as follows:

  "Blanche D'Alpuget, one of the very few women to discuss her experience without adopting a victim posture, says that it was both good and bad. [...] D'Alpuget's relationship began when she was 12 and the man was 54; since he was a friend of the family, she was not in his power; the non-violent relationship was limited to kissing and masturbation. Apart from the age differential, the relationship lacked most of the features associated with intense suffering in girl[s]".

• Leahy, Terry (1994). "Taking up a Position: Discourses of Femininity and Adolescence in the Context of Man/Girl Relationships," Gender & Society, 8(1), 48-72.

  "This article is based on a small-scale interview study (N = 19) of the experiences of girls who were or had been in sexual relationships with adults. It is confined to relationships that were considered by the young parties to have been voluntary and, in general, positive. [...] The interviewees wanted to make their positive experiences of such relationships public in view of the widespread opinion that all such events are harmful to the younger parties involved. The interviews were taped and transcribed. [...]

  Wendy met Paul when she was 12 years old. He was in his mid-20s. [...]

  From her account there is little doubt that Paul was in love with Wendy and showed this affection by his emotional support and understanding of her emotional needs at the time. A statement that stands as a summary of their relationship is the following:

  He was just really ... he was much more sensitive than most people I've known. He's much more concerned. He just had ... the cup runneth over with love and affection. He was really attentive all the time and that sort of attention I've not had from, really from anybody. Just the depth of sensitivity and asking me how I felt about things all the time. [...]

  Wendy's account fits this theme; she claims that Paul and his friends encouraged her to see herself as capable of undertaking university study and that this had a major impact on her life. [...]

  Wendy and Paul's sexual relationship did not include penetration but was confined to tongue kissing and petting. [...] In her account, Wendy describes Paul's behavior in these terms:

  I mean he did want to. He wanted to be sexual, he wanted to be physically close and I felt that. I remember rubbing against him when he had a hard on and things like that but most of the time it felt like he just wanted to be really close and warm. ... We used to cuddle a lot and kiss and things. It got vaguely sexual for a while. Tongue kissing ... a great wet beard. He was really really really gentle. More gentle than I think anyone else I've ever known as far as that goes. He was obviously being really careful. [...]

  At one point she comments on the feeling of protection she felt when Paul carried her in his arms. [...]

  Whereas conservative romantic texts require that the male leads and the female follows, Wendy suggests that she prized and insisted on an equality of authority in relationship. She did not hesitate to oppose Paul.

  [...]

  Bobbie, the last interviewee in this set of narratives, was introduced to her uncle when she was 11. [...] Bobbie has no doubts about her uncle's genuine fondness for her, and indicates a concern for her on his part which is consonant with the model of romance offered by conservative romantic texts:

  It was so caring and considerate, I s'pose, which most adult sexual relations aren't because there's more of an equal, supposedly there's more of an equal power base so you don't ... I've never found that sort of catering for again but I treasure having been, not nurtured, but having been cared for that much and eased into it slowly and all those sorts of things. [...]

  The experiences I had with an uncle whom I liked a lot and with whom I had a very important intellectual relationship were really important in terms of the development of my sexuality, like in terms of educating me basically."

• Hilde Dillen, a Belgian writer May-June 1997

  In Zizo, a magazine for gay and bisexual men and women, Mark Sargeant published an article entitled ‘Ik rouw van jou - Jeugdschrijfster Hilde Dillen’. A few quotes from Hilde Dillen: 'At first I had intended to write about a very beautiful love relationship I used to have with a man who was 17 years older when I was a child of 13-14. But I think one should not be too revealing about such things, because it won't do you any good and it won't do your book any good either.' 'There's a lot of personal stuff in this work, based on my own life as a child and as a developing adult. Because of the relationship I experienced some situations in which I was dissected and rejected, at school, in your immediate environment... I think it is good for parents to realise that 12- to 13-year-old teenagers - who are supposed to be neither children nor adults - can sometimes be very intensively involved in erotic relations.'

• Why Should I Feel Guilty If I Liked It? by Rachel in All About Sex, 1998.

  A woman in her twenties tells of a sexual relationship she had with an adult male neighbor from the age of six for at least six years. She writes, “Why should I feel guilty about the wonderful relationship I had with that man … right up until his death?”

2000-2005

• Video: Why I Remained Loyal To My 23yo Boyfriend When I Was 13

  Editor: In this video, a woman shares her positive testimony of resisting social norms while an adolescent herself.

• Rage of Consent by Heather Corinna in Soapbox Girls, July 2001.
  • Sex activist Heather Corinna talks about the adult lovers she had when she was a teenager, including a 23-year-old man when she was 15. "...this was also by far the most wonderful and intimate relationship of my teen years. He was more respectful of my sexual boundaries than all of my same-age peers. He held me in higher esteem, and treated me with more respect, care and love than others my age. That may be because he was older, that may be because he was who he was — there really is no telling."
  • A 16-year-old girl talks about her adult lovers. "When I have been with adults, I’ve always felt much more comfortable. … I felt less inhibited when I was with a man in his twenties.”
  • A young woman talks about her year-long relationship with 25-year-old man when she was 16. “I look back at it with fondness. I still understand very well why I fell in love and lust with him."
  • A grown woman talks about the adult lovers from her teenage years, including a 35-year-old man when she was 17. "They helped to expand my intellectual horizons, teach me more advanced social interactions and give me a different perspective on things from the point of view of a different generation."

• Hannah June 20, 2003

  Prepubescent sex play becomes full intercourse with an adult. "[I]t was June, about a week after my seventh birthday [...] I'd been wandering around the different paths, maybe a little too far out into the fields, imagining I was exploring somewhere, when I suddenly came across a man lying down in the grass. At first I thought he must be hurt or something, but at the same time couldn't have not noticed he had his erect cock out. [...] I was really pleased with myself for having 'found' him, and when he asked If I'd like to meet again the next day to learn more I was over the moon. Well that meeting happened, and many more followed. His name was David and he was always very gentle and kind to me, and in the course of the next few weeks I was happily trying out all kinds of sex with him. [...] There are also very many women that I've talked to where they weren't discovered, and almost universally they have good feelings (or at the very worst, ambivalence) about the experience. There was a girl who joined my junior school when I was ten who had been in a relationship with a neighbour since she was 8 and at the time told me it was the most special and wonderful thing in her life. I hope no-one has found out and persuaded her otherwise since. There were two girls when I was about twelve that became great friends when we discovered we all had lovers who were in their thirties. One had been having sex as long as she could remember, the other for only about 3 months, but none of us were ever discovered and we all went on to be popular, go university, got decent jobs, and two of us have families, without any apparent psychological or physical trauma from the experience."

• Once against — now supporting by "C". in HFP Mailbag, April 2005.

  An 18-year-old writes about being raped as a child, as well as her consensual relationship with a 19-year-old when she was twelve: "I was in complete agreement with all that went on in that relationship, and I was not at all manipulated."

• When Fairy Lost her Virginity by "Fairy" in HFP Testimonies, November 2005.

  The sex this 18-year-old had with a college freshman when she was twelve was not a positive experience, but she says it could have been and should have been, had she been taught better. "Someone should have told me, my family should have not ignored the possibility of me having sex. I realized that they did not care enough to ever prepare me for … the most important aspect of life."

2006+

• kimxxxyyy (YouTube) at 12 with her adult male partner February 7, 2008

  "I never once thought anything wrong or bad, or that I was doing anything wrong or bad [...] We had a normal relationship...I saw nothing wrong with it, and I still see nothing wrong with it".

• Girl (15) and Leo Poncelet February 26, 2008

  "Society might find it distasteful -- even morally reprehensible -- but a 40-year-old cowboy's sexual relationship with a 15-year-old girl was not criminal, a B.C. Supreme Court judge has ruled. In written reasons released earlier this month, Justice Daphne Smith acquitted Leo Poncelet of sexual exploitation charges, saying the man did not hold a position of authority or trust over the teen, even though he was her riding coach the summer the two became romantically and sexually involved. Smith said the emotional attachment between the two was mutual and the sex consensual, the result of a bond that formed between the two over the course of months."

• Girls ?? & 14 with accused adult male August 15, 2008

  "One of the victims, a 14-year-old girl, told police that she, Lyle and a friend were in a bedroom at the residence. Lyle told the friend that if he had sex with him, he would give her a pack of cigarettes. The girl said she would only do it if the 14 year-old would too. The victim said she had sex with Lyle first and then her friend did. She said it was consensual and they were drinking that night. The victim also said she didn't want to pursue criminal charges. The second victim told police the same story but added that she was drunk that night and felt hung over the next day."

• Oakland youth in sex diary case found dead March 23, 2004

  "In May 2002, at age 18, Fawcett was one of four young men charged with statutory rape for having sex with a 14-year-old Andover High School student. The girl's diary later revealed she had been sneaking out of her parents' Bloomfield Township home in the middle of the night to have oral and anal sex with 22 boys and men. In a May 2002 interview with the Free Press, the girl conceded that she was a predator and a victim: "I declare I am both. Yes, I'm a victim. I was a victim who was deceived by my own emotions and ignorance, of misplaced confidence, a victim of my own fantasies . . . Yes, predator for I chase people who themselves were victims of misplaced confidence.""

• Obsessed polo player, 45, caught having illicit affair with schoolgirl horse rider, 15 14 Jan, 2011, and Trial day four: Businessman accused of sex acts with girl, 15 8 Jan, 2011

  “We were kissing, touching and hugging each other. Then he took my jeans off and I was just touching him and kissing. I was OK with that and I didn't tell him to stop or anything. I trusted him, I thought I loved him. We kept it a secret from everyone.” (<1st article | 2nd article>) "Mr Bold added that when the victim was being taken to the police station she was screaming and shouting saying she didn’t want to go. Later on in proceedings the alleged victim’s mother confirmed this."

Assorted Iatrogeny

Iatrogenic (systemic) harm is a frequent theme in male-female relationships, regardless of age. This helps demonstrate some of the misogynistic underpinnings of social reactions to girls sexual debut.

• "Gemma Grant" - The anonymous girlfriend of "Paedophile Abductor" Jeremy Forrest tells of her relationship, from age 14, which led to the manhunt.

  "We first got close on a school trip to LA in February 2012 when I was 14 and in year 10. I would hang back from the group to chat to him, as we appeared to have so much in common – we liked the same bands and would compare our favourite Nirvana lyrics. I thought he was so cool; he had a tattoo of a blue star on his arm and performed at local gigs. On the flight home, I sat between him and a female teacher and clung on to their hands to help my fear of flying – but I didn’t want to let go of Jeremy’s when we landed. [...] And soon enough, it did – just a few days after my 15th birthday in June. As we walked along the seafront, we finally kissed. After that we met more regularly – I’d tell my mum I was at my friend Louise’s* – we even kissed in empty classrooms at school. [...] Everybody at school seemed so narrow-minded, but suddenly I had a man in front of me with his own opinions, someone who I could have a real, intelligent discussion with. He had so much life experience and I loved hearing about it. He would show me messages from his wife where they were arguing, and insisted that they were separated, despite still living together (their flat had two bedrooms). I chose to believe him. It was in his spare room that we had sex for the first time, a little over a month after that first kiss. He didn’t know I was a virgin. Later, when I’d told him the truth, it would sometimes put him off having sex with me. [...] As soon as I stepped through the school gates to begin year 11, the atmosphere had changed. Rumours had begun to circulate after a girl I’d been on a summer work placement with saw me getting into Jeremy’s car. She told her boyfriend, who told another teacher. But I was so in love I didn’t want to stop the whispers. When people asked me, I’d just reply, “We’re close, but so what?” [...] Teachers suspected something, too. A week into term, one even dragged Jeremy out of the canteen when he saw me enter; the general feeling seemed to be that I was putting a decent man’s career at risk. Every day, kids in my year would shout ‘slut’ as I walked down the halls. It hurt. Was that what I was? And was I actually ruining his life? I began to have panic attacks. I’d shut myself in the school toilets, unable to breath, and try to count slowly to 10 to stay calm. Jeremy was feeling the strain, too. We continued to speak and see one another as much as we could, but it felt like the walls were closing in. The worst thing was, there was no one to turn to. After the school trip to LA, I tried broaching the subject with my mum by explaining there were rumours at school that I was too friendly with Jeremy, as people had spotted us looking close on the plane. Her response was a very clear and sharp, “That had better not be true.” I felt her judgement heavy on my shoulders, and knew if I told the truth, I’d be banned from seeing the man who’d become the centre of my world. [...] When Jeremy asked what I wanted to do, I replied, “Run away.” I wanted us to be free. [...] We were oblivious to the media frenzy back home, to the headlines screeching ‘Paedophile teacher abducts innocent school girl.’ [...] Despite our best efforts, just over a week after our arrival in France, on 28th September, as we walked hand-in-hand towards a pub where Jeremy had been invited for a trial shift, a man in regular clothes jumped out and grabbed him. I began screaming – begging passers-by for help, thinking he was being mugged. Then my arms were pushed behind me. I couldn’t breathe and the only word I understood was ‘police’. Jeremy was handcuffed and pushed onto a bench. [...] The first question they asked when I arrived at the French police station was, “Did you have sex?” and then, “Did you willingly go over to France?” I replied “yes” to both. I wanted the lies to be over. [...] I wrapped myself in his cardigan on the plane journey home – it smelled of his Hugo Boss aftershave. The police saw it as a black-and-white case of a man taking advantage of some silly girl. But, to me, Jeremy was my boyfriend and he’d been torn away from me."

• Gonnie (mp3 audio) date unknown

  Mother of 8y/o girl involved with an adult man. Audio account - please wait for it to load, and fastforward to 22:50. The daughter showed no problems until her older partner ended their relationship for his girlfriend, which emphasized the wrongness (infidelity) of it to her and caused a lot of guilt.

• Tran Thi Truc Diem November 28, 2005

  A 10 year old Vietnamese girl, on contacts with Paul 'Gary Glitter' Gadd. "I liked Uncle Gary at first," said Diem, "but now that my mother has told me that what he did was very wrong I hate him. I thought he was just playing when he touched me but my mother said he should never have done that." "He started tickling me all around my body. He was doing it for a little while and then Aunt Oanh came in and saw him. "My mother has told me it was very, very bad so now I hate Uncle Gary. I don't want to see him ever again".

• Alanis Morissette

  Morissette says in the movie. "It took me years in therapy to even admit there had been any kind of victimization on my part. I would always say I was consenting, and then I'd be reminded like 'Hey, you were 15, you're not consenting at 15.' Now I'm like, 'Oh yeah, they're all pedophiles. It's all statutory rape."

• Germaine Greer in "Seduction is a four-letter word" 1980-88

  "From the child´s point of view and from the commonsense point of view, there is an enormous difference between intercourse with a willing little girl and the forcible penetration of the small vagina of a terrified child. One woman I know enjoyed sex with an uncle all through her childhood, and never realized that anything was unusual until she went away to school. What disturbed her then was not what her uncle had done but the attitude of her teachers and the school psychiatrist. They assumed that she must have been traumatized and disgusted and therefore in need of very special help. In order to capitulate their expectations, she began to fake symptoms that she did not feel, until at length she began to feel truely guilty about not having been guilty. She ended up judging herself very harshly for this innate lechery."