User talk:Prue

Hi

Thanks for submitting the sources to the new article on the lGBT movement. Here is a template for citations:

<ref>[https://example.com/example Citation or rough name]</ref>

For no Link:

<ref>Citation</ref>

--JohnHolt (talk) 08:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I have created two articles

With topical information you submitted to Censorship:

• David Sonenschein - COMPLETE.
• Ernest Borneman

In time, these will be developed, but this might be a good point to look at the foundational basis of a working article. We templated one a while back:

copy the wikitext and paste into the articles, then knock out the categories and sections you don't need and work the content. --JohnHolt (talk) 09:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank You

Hi there. As you can see I'm still slowly slowly learning by doing, making contributions here and there to try and get a handle on how editing and creating pages works. Apologies for my sloppiness... And thank you for making separate pages for Borneman and Sonenschein; I put way too much info but I'm not too sure on how to create a page as opposed to just editing an already made one. I'll practice making a page in the near future, as I'm thinking of creating a page "bias in research" where I'll summarize the few explicit analysis of research bias by Bruce Rind and Alayne Yates, respectively. And prob discuss Paul Okami and Joel Best's discussions of victimological [non-scientific] terminology being used in research. Also, if you've not seen these pages yet I wonder if they'd be good to archive https://famouspedophiles.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/notables-figures-living-or-dead-who-evinced-an-attraction-to-people-under-16-with-a-focus-on-under-13/ and https://famouspedophiles.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/famous-pedophiles/

Hey, yes, Famous Peds is a project that falls under our mirror project (i.e. it contains plenty of material we can duplicate if it is carefully vetted and integrated into our article/category structure). I'd like to end up with plenty of medium-size, easy to mainatin historical articles based on that site. BoyWiki also has some similar information, but they also have a lot of texts and deep archives - the kind of thing we read and summarize when relevant, but don't engage in ourselves unless we have exclusive access to a text, and that is rare.

I have just created an article on Tromovitch to show you how a basic stub article works, although you are welcome to include more information about your subjects if it is less well circulated elsewhere. So if we have an article on a popular current/evolving subject, we tend to just keep a stub that links out, so it doesn't need updating. We link out to resources that are updated - i.e. Wikipedia. If it's a common but relevant topic like Michael Jackson for example, we would carry information that is less widely circulated, and link out for everything else.

When you create an article, to begin with, you should just be more inclusive. I'll then come in and delete excessive categories etc, or suggest alternative locations for other information.

What you propose sounds like a research review list for "problems in research". This was suggested by Jillium (?), so feel free to copy the format and start building it (first of all, without linking it to the research project). We are working on the summarization of Janssen - a similar kind of thing, but more long term in its scope. --JohnHolt (talk) 04:56, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Bias in research

I saw this request and modified an existing article to accommodate any excerpts you might have on these topics:

Research: Methodological flaws and syndrome construction --The Admins (talk) 00:04, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

For a list of things not yet integrated to articles: [1] --JohnHolt (talk) 07:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Lets work on it here

Testimonies now integrated in format.

Let's use this page as the sandbox for a new article.

The article you have quoted seems to have ample material for an new article on Korephilia, Lesbian Intergenerational relationships or something like that. This would have to be a new article. Alternatively, a book stub with a review or excerpts annexed could be an acceptable format. let me know and i'll look at creating something. --The Admins (talk) 06:37, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

The content

• Littauer, Amanda. (2020) Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s, in Historical Reflections, 46:1, 95-108

• Abstract: "Drawing on letters and writings by teenage girls and oral history interviews, this article aims to open a scholarly conversation about the existence and significance of intergenerational sexual relationships between minor girls and adult women in the years leading up to and encompassing the lesbian feminist movement of the 1970s. Lesbian history and culture say very little about sexual connections between youth and adults, sweeping them under the rug in gender-inflected ways that differ from the suppression of speech in gay male history and culture about intergenerational sex between boys and men. Nonetheless, my research suggests that, despite lesbian feminists’ caution and even negativity toward teen girls, erotic and sexual relationships with adult women provided girls access to support, pleasure, mentorship, and community."

• Newgon: Except Paidika's special issue dedicated to female sexuality and the non-specialist Youthlove Anthology "She Said - Women, Lesbians and Feminists Speak about Youthlove", this article represents one of the few discussions of "Queer" (non-normative) intergenerational lesbianism. Because the article represents a seminal contribution drawing on archival material which has never been publicized before, we have included longer quotations as a separate page here [if someone could create this, link the page and simply paste the following quotations that would be amazing 'cause idk how / I'll take forever., and focused on testimonies in what follows here.

[Quotes for separate article - I've given some titles in bold to separate info and signpost the reader]:

The Conspiracy of Silence on Intergenerational Lesbianism

"Across the [feminist] ideological spectrum, there was strong opposition to the sexual objectification of women and attentiveness to the ways that power relations shaped sexual dynamics. The feminist politicization of sexuality sometimes led lesbian feminists to downplay butch masculinity and to deemphasize lesbian sexual desire and practice. It should not be surprising, then, that explicit discussion of age-differentiated sexual relationships between women and girls felt risky and unwelcome in lesbian feminist communities" (p. 96)

"Historians have speculated that reasons for this absence in the literature likely include the lasting impact of the myth of homosexual pedophilia; the exclusion of legal minors from LGBT commercial, cultural, and social spaces; and the politics of gay and lesbian respectability in the marriage equality era" (p. 96).

"Many teen girls in the mid-to late twentieth century [...] initiated sexual and romantic relationships with self-identified lesbians who were part of lesbian networks. Unlike in gay male subcultures, however, lesbian and lesbian feminist communities usually stigmatized relationships between adult lesbians and adolescents, who were seen as placing adults at risk of persecution and even legal prosecution for “contributing to the delinquency of a minor.” In their search for connection and belonging, teen girls who initiated romantic and sexual relationships with adult lesbians risked rejection and further alienation" (pp. 100-101).

"In Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold, Elizabeth Kennedy and Madeline Davis [..] mention the phenomenon of older femmes taking young butches under their wings, both socially and sexually. Lesbians (and gay men) in the postwar years often used the language of “bringing out” to describe a more experienced queer person’s introduction of same-sex sexual practice to a less experienced person" (p. 102).

Littauer's Approach

"I take a social-historical approach that centers the voices of girls, whom I define according to gender self-identification and legal minor designation (i.e., under the age of eighteen or twenty-one, depending on the jurisdiction). I ask what girls and women have said and written about their romantic and erotic feelings for, and consensual sexual relationships with, adult women and what themes or categories we might use to begin to understand what those connections meant and how they shaped the lives and subjectivities of queer girls." (pp. 96-97)

"Based on preliminary research, I argue that girls in age-differentiated sexual relationships with adult women sought affective experiences of pleasure, belonging, and safety, and in many cases also sociosexual mentorship and access to resources, independence, and community. Their ability to achieve these outcomes depended largely on forces and dynamics beyond their control, including adult lesbians’ preference for keeping youth at a distance." (p. 97)

Queer Girls Have Always Been There, You Just Didn't Notice

"Stories of girls developing “crushes” on adult women are ubiquitous in oral histories, autobiographies, and fiction. Gym teachers, school teachers, scout leaders, camp counselors, and nuns appear over and over again as the objects of girls’ affections and obsessions, which were often romantic and sometimes sexual in nature. Sources from the 1970s suggest marked continuity from earlier decades in the affective experience of “schoolgirl crushes” as well as in the function of such recollections in “coming out” narratives that sought to document, track, and consolidate the emergence of lesbian identity." (p. 97)

"In the 1970s, nationally known lesbian authors such as Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon joined teachers and others in the group of adult potential objects of adolescent girls’ fantasies and desires. Founding the nation’s first lesbian homophile organization, the Daughters of Bilitis, in the 1950s, Martin and Lyon published Lesbian/Woman in 1972 and devoted several pages to the problems facing lesbian teens. Girls from around the country got hold of the book and wrote to the authors, seeking advice and attention. In April of 1976, for instance, a seventeen-year-old named Paulette wrote from Zolfo Springs, Florida. Paulette mentioned early in her letter that she would turn eighteen on 28 June. She wrote: “I know my age is very young, it is a label, I am somewhat more mature in ways than that of my age.” She then raved about the book in emotional and erotic language:

[indented] I have your book in my lap right now and I am looking at the cover and just by looking at this cover just goes to show you can’t tell a book by it’s [sic] cover . . . it’s what’s inside that counts, and boy does this book have something inside!!! I wish I could give some of this back to you, (this - the overwhelming feeling I get, wow! it will turn you around. Really it’s a pocketful full of energy, excitement so much, listen it’s beyond words, what can I say I could go on and on and never really define what I feel exactly, ecstatic, turned on tremendously!) I really like you both very much, I like your hearts, I like you. Please write, I hope you do soon. Love be with you, with my love and happiness to you, Paulette.

"Many girls in the mid-to late twentieth century acted on their feelings for adult women and entered into romantic and sexual relationships, usually in their own neighborhoods and communities. A range of sources speak to girls’ experiences in sexual relationships with adult women, who were often married with children and who did not typically identify as lesbians or engage in lesbian subcultures. For teen girls, these relationships served a range of purposes and met a variety of needs, including the opportunity to recognize or validate their romantic and/or sexual desire for women and to enjoy physical and emotional pleasure, connection, and satisfaction. Letters from adolescent girls seeking advice about their sexual relationships with older women in the 1970s suggest, however, that the interpersonal dynamics of age-differentiated couples could be quite complex and challenging, particularly in the absence of community support." (p. 98)

"Another letter speaks to the theme of relationships with older women introducing a mix of insecurity and support. An eighteen-year-old from Daytona, Florida, wrote that after two suicide attempts and a brief stay in a psychiatric ward—she pointed out that it was brief only because she knew better than to admit that she was gay—she went to live with an older, married woman and mother of two who was studying to become a psychologist. Talking openly about her feelings helped her tremendously, she explained. She fell in love with the older woman but kept her feelings to herself and was therefore quite surprised to find that her feelings were reciprocated. The two had an affair that lasted for a few months and that the letter writer described as “beautiful,” but after it ended, loneliness and suicidal thoughts were again taking hold and the letter writer begged Martin and Lyon to help her find other lesbians so that she would have a reason to keep going. She promised to wait for their reply before “doing anything stupid.” The file includes a copy of Lyon and Martin’s reply, in which they gave information about a local chapter of the National Organization for Women known to have several lesbian members and a chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis that was somewhat further away. They urged her to get rid of her gun and to use their help to secure support in finding her way as a lesbian in the world, as so many others had." (pp. 99-100).

Stigma and Secondary Harm Endured by Queer Girls

"An eighteen-year-old from Denton, Texas, wrote that the age difference between her and her thirty-six-year-old lover, Barbara, sometimes left Barbara feeling “guilty” and worried. She asked:

[indented] Do you know of any couples (homosexual) with a very large difference in ages that have had a long life together? I wish that you could let us know if you do — it would do nice to give Barbara a little extra encouragement. She worries about me more than she does herself and she is afraid something will happen to me because of our love. I hope I don’t take too much of your time, but you are about the only ones I really have to talk to about Barbara and me. It’s really great telling someone how much I love her — cause I do love her an awful lot.

Despite the stress created by their eighteen-year gap in age, the letter writer relished the opportunity to name the love that the two women shared. She also mentioned that she and Barbara were looking to rent a house together, which raises the point that intergenerational relationships created not only emotional and sexual possibilities, but also material opportunities for teen girls." (p. 100).

"In the early 1970s, the two founders and editors of the literary arts journal for lesbians, Amazon Quarterly, traveled across North America to interview subscribers and published excerpts of the interviews in a book called The New Lesbians [Laurel Galana and Gina Covina, The New Lesbians: Interviews with Women Across the U.S. and Canada (Berkeley, CA: Moon Books, 1977) - Newgon]. The book offered a lesbian feminist framework that explicitly countered dominant messages about lesbians’ family histories, psychological stability, reliance on gendered “roles,” sex lives, and general health and well-being.

Within this collection is the story of Sylvia, a novelist and “university teacher” in her “early forties” living in British Columbia with her long-term partner, Margaret. Sylvia remembered being attracted to girls by the age of thirteen and recognizing the feelings as sexual at fifteen, when she became involved with a thirty-five-year-old woman who was married with young children. When an interviewer asked how Sylvia felt about the relationship, Sylvia responded: “Just marvelous, I was just awestruck, it was the most marvelous thing to discover and it was an odd relationship.” She continued: “I suppose I really joined the family, there was no hassle, her husband knew what the relationship was and it didn’t bother him.” In fact, she explained, she was “devoted to him, too,” to the point that when Sylvia was staying with the family to help with the children during their mother’s illness, Sylvia became “sexually involved” with her lover’s husband, because “it just seemed the right sort of comforting thing to do.” The interviewer asked if Sylvia felt the need to tell other people in order to gain support, and Sylvia answered “no”; she “had a feeling of secrecy” to protect the relationship, because it was “so absolutely acceptable to all of us” but would almost certainly baffle her parents and grandmother." (pp. 100-101).

"although legal prosecution of women over twenty-one for having sex with legal minors “rarely occurs,” the possibility did exist and that parents of youth sometimes threatened legal action. The mother of Teresa, one of [Susan] Cahn’s white narrators, “said she was going to call the cops and throw my lover in jail,” which ended the relationship. As a result, some adults insisted on keeping their relationships with minors completely secret, which, as Cahn pointed out, “puts a great deal of added pressure on both partners.” Cahn added that older partners sometimes treated younger lovers in “ageist” ways, criticizing them for their lack of experience or expressing frustration that they could not get into bars easily or at all" (p. 104).

Angelica, who was nineteen, felt that she was the one who “set up” the mother–child dynamic in her relationship at sixteen with a woman who was thirty. “I would keep using my age as an excuse” for not knowing things, “setting myself up as a baby needing to be mothered.” In a different relationship, however, the dynamic was reversed, and her older lover resisted other lesbians’ assumptions about the burden of dating someone so young. “I remember how if we would be in the bar and other women would come up and talk about how she’s a chicken hawk . . . and what’s she doing with a baby dyke and don’t you have to teach her everything. . . . She would say, ‘I don’t have to teach her anything. She’s teaching it all to me.’” Angelica’s account reveals the multiple possibilities for age-differentiated relationships, whose internal dynamics were often more subtle or complex than the stereotypes would suggest." (p. 105).

"A few of [Susan] Cahn’s interviewees reflected on the reasons why adult lesbian feminists tended to stigmatize relationships with girls and young women under twenty-one, including internalized homophobia. The myth of pedophilia inaccurately stigmatized gay and lesbian people as child molesters seeking to “recruit” youth into homosexuality and clearly got into the heads of lesbians. Elliot, a seventeen-year-old white lesbian, told Cahn that “I’ve had a couple people just freak out” when they found out her age. “Just feeling like they robbed the cradle. . . . It’s like they can be relating to me just fine. But once they find out I’m 17, these huge stereotypes just come down." (pp. 105-106).

"The sting of adult lesbians’ sexual rejection was especially frustrating to young lesbian feminists who embraced the movement’s political analysis of power and oppression. Like the young lesbian subjects about whom I write in “Your Young Lesbian Sisters,” Cahn’s interviewees understood ageism as limiting girls’ access to resources, community, and their own potential. They saw it as an oppressive structural force that intersected with sexism and homophobia, and sometimes also racism. For Kim, a black sixteen-year-old, the lesbian community “has showed me what I could have, if I was the right age and the right color and looked right. . . . It’s offered me some things; a sense that there are women here, that there are lesbians here. Whether they’re here for you is another thing.” Older white lesbians’ attitudes toward Kim’s blackness and youth left Kim feeling alone, even in the midst of lesbian community." (p. 106).

"Emily, one of Cahn’s white interviewees, explained that her current lover, who at thirty was ten years older than herself, “has the old image of the lecherous old woman who seduces the young woman into lesbianism.” Liz also explored the fears driving women’s reluctance to see young lesbians as potential sexual partners: “I think that some people are threatened . . . I know there’s that issue in women’s heads about statutory rape or something . . . and being cradle robbers and all that kind of stuff . . . Maybe they thought I was a little naïve or something, and I’d take chances to do this and that . . . violating them or something.” In Liz’s view, women interested in teen girls feared their own negative views of themselves and perhaps of one another" (p. 106).

The Verdict

Despite the need for considerable additional research on the subject, it appears that there was a marked contrast in the ways that gay male and lesbian subcultures regarded sex between adults and minors. Postwar lesbian and 1970s lesbian feminist cultures seem to have discouraged the eroticization of youth and sex between adults and minors, emphasizing the significance of age-based differences in maturity and perspective to a point that young lesbians often found patronizing and disrespectful. Nonetheless, girls experienced feelings of romance and desire toward adult women that they identified as meaningful, and they entered into consensual sexual relationships with older women through which they accessed pleasure, self-understanding, and resources of various kinds. Sexual intimacy with self-identified lesbians who were part of lesbian communities provided even greater benefits, such as sexual and social mentorship and introduction to subcultural networks and shared vocabularies. Intergenerational eroticism was a factor in the lives of teen girls who, whether they lived in Denton, Texas, or Philadelphia, sought out connections to adult women through erotic letters to authors, relationships with neighboring housewives, and sexual instruction from a lesbian couple providing a place to crash on nights away from home. It is time to take the sexual agency of queer youth seriously, which means that many of us have a great deal more research to do." (pp. 106-107).

New Articles

As well as the articles on Borneman and the above idea on intergenerational lesbianism, we can probably look at creating a special article for 20th Century pederasty before Stonewall, if you wish to keep reading on this topic. This can take in some of the material in the LGBT-MAP article, allowing it to be more summary in its treatment. Let me know which of these ideas you will like to develop/will be adding to, and I will create the relevant article. --The Admins (talk) 22:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey. I don't think I'm well-read enough on pre-stonewall 20th century pederasty. I can name-drop famous figures / groups - Oscar Wilde, Andre Gide, John Addington Symonds and the Uranians - but that's about it. My knowledge on each of them is not very deep. People who are more into classic BL literature, well-versed on pederasty would be better. I wonder if the scholar who runs the Greek Love website would want to write something? I don't know them personally, but I've been told by ppl who know them that they're very supportive.

I think it'd be great to have a separate article dedicated to intergen lesbianism. Littauer provides a good basis, supplemented by people like Pat Califa: "I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful." https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm

These 2 poss relevant articles I have saved I need to read-through, esp. the 2nd one:

Martha Vicinus, ‘Distance and Desire: English Boarding-School Friendships’, in The Lesbian Issue: Essays from Signs (Chicago: Chicago University Press, 1985) <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3173613>. Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116 <https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07>

So yes let's go with intergen lesbianism and I'll try and summarize points by Littauer rather than block quoting her. Also, I'm gonna quickly add citations for the Feminism page. This article could be relevant to both pages, and I need to skim that too: Margaret A. Simons, ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism', in Signs, 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161 <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174730> Beauvoir signed the famous french petition with Foucault et al. about abolishing AOC laws.

Cool, I mentioned the other topic, because the information you have added to the LGBT-MAP article is reaching critical mass for forking, and could be summarized within the article itself. If more information is found, we will probably have to create a new article and manage it that way. I'll make Intergenerational Lesbianism. --The Admins (talk) 22:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Rotherham Report/Rochdale, etc

Just did a short media review at Research: Commercial and online sexual exploitation. Wondering if the topic interests you? I'd like to see somebody go over the report and tease out what was really going on. --The Admins (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Alinka Gearon Paper

I made some modifications to our citation of this paper after an author's request. --The Admins (talk) 23:08, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Copy of present text

I have had to read parts of the paper due to complaints made by the author, and produced the following summary, also detaching the citation from most of the claims made. It seems to also bend to some of the theoretical aspects of her work, as well as our interpretation of the substantive aspects:

Others have focused on "trafficked children" ultimately detected by the system (charities and protective services). By virtue of the fact that the subjects of these studies are nearly always referred following complaints (either by the subjects themselves or an outside party) they will typically be victims of multiple forms of abuse. Nevertheless, in-depth case-studies reveal that the image of the "coercively trafficked" child is an inaccurate trope - one that is abused for political gain. For example, even when they had no economic power to escape the situation (they complied because of false promises of work, etc) minors used their own mental resources to protect themselves and ultimately to identify themselves as victims. Criminalization of minors is also pointed to as a source of harm. Much less work concerns "child sex trafficking" in particular, and Agustin-type observational studies of youth sex workers would be almost impossible because of ethical restrictions. We use a range of sources and invite readers to form their own opinion as to the veracity of the child-saver industry's more outlandish claims.

[Reference used:]

Now, it may also be helpful if we could find other case studies on "trafficked" minors identified by agencies and self-report. --The Admins (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems that use of the word "choice" (active, deliberate, etc) is theoretical in most such publications and not substantive. Gearon insists that it is not applied to minors, but I also added this from UNICEF, which seems to take a completely different line (despite the source interviews being similar in tone):

In 2008, UNICEF described this as a "deliberate choice" on the part of trafficked minors in a majority of interviewees.

[Reference used:]

Hi,

To be honest, after reading this paper in more detail, I have no issue with removing any reference to this paper from Newgon. In fact, I think it should be removed. The abstract is highly misleading and the article eventually becomes largely in opposition to Newgon's ethos and aims. The narratives included are about minors who do not know where they're going, or what they're going to be doing when they get there.

E.g. quote: "Contrary to being deemed as ‘consenting’ to their migration, young people’s experiences reveal that they exercised no choice in leaving their home countries. Family members often made the decision to migrate or agreed travel arrangements on their behalf,

   So when I was told that I was going with her, to be living with her child living in London, like in village we used to call it like ‘white peoples’ land’ … you don’t really have say on this matter, the adults know what’s best, you carry on, even if you don’t want to go. (Maya)

   When my uncle he do a deal with agent … I didn’t have choice … I didn’t choose the country, because my uncle he choose this for me. (Ammar)

Many young people did not know where they were going."

I don't think we need this study on Newgon. If anything, I am surprised at Gearon's finding that "front-line" services interpreted "young people’s migration as voluntary and consensual" in any way. This seems extremely odd.

My concern with "trafficking" is where this term is used by SWERFS/ SWERF esq ppl to encompass any sex work that involves crossing borders. If anything, Gearon's cases are the kind of cases we don't want happening. I think we can remove the reference with no issues, we have a LOT left on that page.

The way Gearon has now been used could be replaced by a citation like this: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/everything-you-think-you_b_9772910

Quote:

"At the federal level any young person involved in commercial sex acts is considered a victim of a severe form of human trafficking. Because prostitution laws are regulated by states, it is not uncommon to have young people being arrested for prostitution-related offenses.

Unfortunately, because their behavior is criminalized and because many of these young people report having experience abuse perpetrated by police officers, they largely do not think of law enforcement as a safety option"

All the best

I'd like to preface anything related to sex work in particular with what is known about trafficking according to "trafficked children". We can assume that as these are complaint-led reviews and because charities and child protective services typically have a much lower bar of evidence than the criminal system, that this is pretty much the worst kind of substantiated (as in recorded) complaint related to child trafficking into developed economies. I think it's important to have those studies, so I added another one from UNICEF and explained how we are using them in an editorial note.

As our article concerns Youth Sex Work, anything related to that specific topic should have its own excerpt. We are attempting to inform a conclusion about sex work, although we are obviously a long way away from that. The way I have improved the article is just to make more clear cut distinctions re. how we cite the work. --The Admins (talk) 18:10, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Feminist Bios

As per the design of these wiki pages, we will eventually need individual articles on the Feminist authors in Feminism. This will glue together the excerpts you have taken with some basic biographical information, and the aforementioned article will then be cut down to size, with each author summarized and linked. --The Admins (talk) 00:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Historical and Ethnological Compendium

Thanks for your submissions. Once I am on my desktop, I will look at some of the formatting on the most recent edits.

I have a long term plan to combine the articles on history and ethnology into one, and fill it with summaries of various literature reviews and a full review of Janssen. We are likely to use the standard article format (as opposed to excerpts) to achieve this, but I will use highlighter to denote three different time periods, probably up to the middle ages, pre Victorian and the modern industrial era. --The Admins (talk) 12:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Siwa

Do you think there is anything useful in here for our non-western or historical article: Siwa today --The Admins (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm amazed at the Thorstand stuff you're digging up. It's incredible. I'll take a look at this article and see if I find anything to add :)

Looks like we use the WA Percy version in the history compendium, but a load more references. Maybe we can see what the quote comes from, write a lede and tidy the refs.--The Admins (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Feray, Plummer

Thanks for adding these bios. If possible, could you add some categories to Feray and to Plummer when you have finished editing. Feray has now been tidied up and is ready to be categorized. --The Admins (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Guidance

Thanks for your recent edits. It would be great if you could have a look here, particularly with respect to internal linking of files. Much like external links in a body of text are rarely superior to a reference list, internal file links should be formatted and not presented as an external link. E.g. [[Media:Wiki.png|Site Logo]]. The prior text in an edit window will result in a link to our site logo with the text "Site Logo" when published. The benefits of this are... firstly that Newgon is not an external. Secondly that if our url changes, the link automatically changes to new domain.net.

NewgonWiki:Working standards and technical advice

If my eyes are up to the task, I'll go over the edits in a few days and see what I can do. Maybe Helen can also help. On a medical enforced rest here unfortunately. --The Admins (talk) 18:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

"On a medical enforced rest here unfortunately" > I'm not religious but I pray for your good health! Be safe, be well, and thanks for all you do! - Prue

Cite a reference as many times as you like

Thanks for your edits to Ken Plummer. Here is a tip. To cite a ref multiple times, try the following wikitext:

<ref name=Google>[http://Google.com Google Website]</ref>

Then when you repeat the tag <ref name="Google" /> after any passage of text for which you wish to use the same citation, the inline citation will point to the same footnote. The footnote will refer back by internal link to each use within the article.

Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity does this frequently with some citations. Open up the edit window and take a look at the wikitext. And then look at the footnote list. --The Admins (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Categorization of archive pages is essential

Categorization and archiving is absolutely essential to our project. You have uploaded plenty of material that is invisible to our archiving system as a result of failing to categorize or archive it. Please check Helen's recent uploads for an example of how archive material must be categorized, much like articles. All the relevant subcategories can be found here:

Category:Archival

Much of that material must also enter the Chronological Archive. But it is your call as to what enters, in line with the chronological archive's focus on activism and texts of import. I can simply not patrol all this content right now due to my health, but thanks for your edits. --The Admins (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

A productive exercize

Thanks for your recent edits. I'm a bit behind with my stylistic and formatting alterations of the recent edits. I'd like to suggest something that might help in learning MediaWiki, because I have a pet theory that you have not looked into it because of the obscurity of this software. That is the "history and diffs" section of this wiki!

For example, go to "recent changes". Click on the "history" link for an article that you have edited recently, when it shows that I have gone in afterwards and corrected some style and formatting. Then click on the "diff" of my edits. This will show you how I have changed the wikicode along with the edit summary I have added. I do believe this is the fastest way to learn good wikicode, and not knowing that these hints and tips exist may be one of the reasons why you do things like adding a link to our own article inside ref tags (unnecessary), or as an external link, which leaves me scratching my head.

The categories topic above can be solved by simply adding [[Category:Nameofcategory]] to the file description when you upload it. This makes it visible to hundreds more readers - i.e. people who use cats to navigate --The Admins (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice! I'll remember to category archive files in future! Haha, I have looked around the various pages you've spotlighted to me, but you'd be right in that I've been learning by doing, and that I've never contributed to wiki style pages like this before helping out w/ Newgon. I think I'm getting much better at it; now the task is to get quicker at it! Thanks and be well! - Prue

Eric Gill

Thanks for the contributions on Eric Gill. Please take a look at my changes and edit summaries for my last two edits to the article. This will help you: 1. Link a Wikipedia article simply using wikicode as opposed to an external link. 2. Create a reference that is coded so that you can use it as a citation at multiple points in an article using the <ref name="ABCXYZ" /> attribute (as opposed to creating notes such as "see reference ABCXYZ". --The Admins (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Roger Moody

Thanks for your article, Roger Moody. We should invent some kind of Wikipedia Barnstar, for all your submissions.

I can see only one issue after my recent edit (description and diffs in article history): That is he is Category:People: Desceased. --The Admins (talk) 14:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

"We should invent some kind of Wikipedia Barnstar, for all your submissions." > Had to look that up. Thanks pallio it's nice to have your work appreciated; thanks for all you do and yes the edits are all looking good. Prue ~

Thanks

Thanks for all your recent edits, I can see it is a lot and will try to go over all of them today.

For now, I have just changed Peter Schult in one edit. Please take a look at the diffs on that change.

I have deliberately left one thing unattended, too. Can you tell what it is? Hint: it's a header/title near the bottom of the article... --The Admins (talk) 11:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I believe he may also qualify for [[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: German]]

It will be great to get Ernest Borneman finished and categorized. Looks like it just needs some basic changes.

Above your editing box, you will see a little button with a tiny x followed by a scribble. That is your signature (represented in wikitext as --~~~~). Print your signature after your comment on talk pages like this. Also indent sequential comments in a talk page convo as I have done with this one. --The Admins (talk) 11:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I'll set us up now, and do the following job. The missing element was the References header, which you just need to put as a separate line before the categories at the end of the article:

==References==

The list auto-generates below this heading. --The Admins (talk) 14:54, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Having done this, I have made some changes to Text of Beispiel Peter Schult including changing the title to reflect that it is an archive article, and removing encyclopedia categories. I have introduced archival categories from Category:Archival (including the root). I believe your text will be ready for the chrono archive when it is complete, so you can pre-emptively add it there. --The Admins (talk) 15:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Schult book

I moved the first section to File:Peter Schult - Pedophilia in Public Discourse.pdf so it looks nice on screen in the categories. No need to alter or categorize the other files. --The Admins (talk) 19:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay I was worried for a second there; had the whole thing written out with all the links, then it said the preface was deleted! XD Uploaded what I'd done to [[2]] --Prue (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

No, just keeping the archive-listed file name presentable. Some people like to use categories to search, and I am not aware of how we can make custom titles override the file name when a file appears in a category. I'll be back on around Friday - trying to give myself a break every week. --The Admins (talk) 22:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

No worries, I think I'll take a break too. I'm happy with the additions I've been able to make but I'm probably spending a bit too much time on it. Except the celibate ones, the Famous peds blog is almost completely reproduced on Newgon now. Take care; I hope you're well :) --Prue (talk) 23:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, thanks so much. I have requested for the file size limit to be raised by admin. --The Admins (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

If it would be helpful for me to have some level of Admin here to help out and monitor changes, since I've now spent some time creating pages, I'd be happy to offer to help out in some way if that eases the burden on you. It wouldn't be all that hard for me to monitor the addition of wikitext and look over changes as we try to get others in the PCMA etc to contribute) --Prue (talk) 00:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

That would be great. What we really need is a big enough editing team, such that a decent number of editors are familiar with protocols, and can patrol edits, so the material we put out is consistent in style. I can still do that, and will check over all recent material at the weekends. I might make some additions to the style guide and cheat sheet soon, as well. I'll probably also update the category list with the archival and essay categories.

Are you planning to finish your summary of Peter Schult's biography, by the way? I think it might work better as a book review on an encyclopedia page about a book. --The Admins (talk) 09:22, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes I do plan on continuing the summary of the Schult book. I think it'd be good to label it as 'selected quotes' rather than summary. I've got some more quotes ready, but not skimmed the full book yet. And yes, how can we recruit writers or get people to contribute regularly? We have some very dedicated ppl in the PCMA who are clearly very knowledgeable; it would be great if they could help out more adding info.--Prue (talk) 03:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Listing younger partners in the category

I have just found that we can list younger partners in this category, without creating an article for them.

Category:People: Adult or Minor sexually attracted to or involved with the other

I did this by creating a redirect for Virginia Clemm to Edgar Allan Poe, but including the category in the redirect page. You will see that she now appears in italics, in that list - as she should. It's not a task I would want to do myself (for the whole encyclopedia), but good to see it can be done eventually. I would suggest not using any other categories (especially the main encyclopedia category, history categories, which the article will alreadybe listed in) unless the secondary topic of the article were particularly notable in any given area.

I guess this also means we can create articles on organizations such as Gays Against Groomers, without messing up our categories with a secondary article on Jaimee Michell. But we can still make her appear in our category of unsympathetic people, etc. --JohnHolt (talk) 11:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Famous Indians - Bios

Handsome Jack (who is on a break from frontline activism after the fallout in Matrix) has put forward these famous Indians who had young partners:

• Dr. Ambedkar - literally the person who wrote India's Constitution, married a 9yo girl, when he was 15
• Gangadhar Rao (28) who married Rani Laxmibai (very famous figure in India) when she was 13
• Gopalrao Joshi (29) who married Anandibai Gopal, India's first female doctor (9) --The Admins (talk) 12:25, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
• Mahadev Govind Ranade

Another thing maybe

I now realize that a lot of the new pages are orphans (no links from elsewhere in the wiki) or otherwise have very few links to them. What you could do, maybe, is go through the list of names, and pick a few who are particularly well-known, and search for their name in the search bar. Wherever their name appears in an article (and is not part of an existing link, for example), you can put their name in square brackets, to make the articles more visible. --The Admins (talk) 20:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the see alsos, I didn't think of that. I've broken the big lists into two or three columns to make it look nicer. I've also searched the wiki for mentions of people in your articles and put them all in [[square brackets]]. --The Admins (talk) 14:23, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I've been over Schrodinger

Thanks, the article is very detailed. The changes I made are reflected in my edit summary:

But a few notes -

1. You do not need to use a new blockquote for each line of a quote. In fact, avoid it, since it gives the false impression of multiple quotes. As well as being... just harder for the writer and subsequent editors.

2. Quotes inside blockquotes should be italic, and without quotation marks at the start and end. Ellipses and editors notes should not be in italics. I deliberately left one ellipses in italics. Could you change it to non italic by placing '' <text> '' either side of it?

3. The references really should have titles - all of them. It's an excellent article, but having naked URLs visible in the footer of the article is bad style and detracts from the rest of the article. Readers assume "the writer is just finding links to cite, and is spamming them into a reference template, not finding out what the cites actually are".

As for point 3, my eyes are past doing that work today. Maybe I can get through the other new articles in faster time tomorrow? --The Admins (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I've made a few further changes and corrected some italics. I'm using the pink highlighter to reduce the amount of bold, and changed your bolds into italics. --The Admins (talk) 12:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

An important thing about italics and wiki formatting in general (not html fixes like blockquotes and text color), is that it works on a "per line basis".

So, say I want to change the following passage to italics:

asdf

mnbv

This is what I type:

''asdf''

''mnbv''

If I were to type this:

''asdf

mnbv''

I would not get italics

Say I want to remove italics from a [...] on a line that is already italicized. I simply need to put a '' and an '' either side of it to close and reopen the italic passage.

But say the [...] were on a new line altogether, doing that would make it italic, which is unwanted. You would just type [...] with no formatting --The Admins (talk) 12:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

What do you think about Michel Foucault and Alfred Kinsey?

These look like bios we started years ago, but never fully completed.

P.S. I've been thinking about how we reference Wikipedia, and I think it's best as an in-text link. Here's my rationale: Wikipedia pages are ever-changing, and could god forbid be vandalized by people working from here, or removing inconvenient facts. Therefore, we don't know if they will change or stay the same, so a tagged reference is best avoided. The link in-text just says "here is the information, it should back up what we are asserting".

To link a wikipedia page in text, we have the simple wikicode:

[[Wikipedia:Elon Musk|Chief Twit]]

results in:

Chief Twit

--The Admins (talk) 21:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

New Template

There is a new template to add to most decent size articles concerning academia.

Template:Ac

Hopefully adding someone to it is pretty easy, just preview to check that the line isn't too wide. I'll start adding it to a few articles, if they haven't already got a template on, and are big enough to accommodate it. --The Admins (talk) 19:07, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Archive alert

I have used the Web Archive to replace lost links in the Tony Duvert article, particularly Extracts from Quand mourut Jonathan.

Please make personal copies if you need to. --The Admins (talk) 21:48, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Interesting

https://www.boywiki.org/en/Michael_Davidson --The Admins (talk) 21:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Homosexualities

What other journals have you got on your radar? I do believe that Homosexualities, Journal of LGBT Youth, Journal of Sex Research, Psychological Bulletin and Archives of Sexual Behavior deserve a mention. --The Admins (talk) 23:40, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Position

Hi. Would you like me to add you as an editorial lead on the Newgon Support Team (Social History and Critical Theory)? The role is a membership role, entails no responsibilities, but just describes the general purview of an editor's work. --The Admins (talk) 19:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Sounds great, and apt in my case. So yes go ahead. All the best --Prue (talk) 18:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Herman and Brownmiller

This might interest you:

In the 1960s and 1970s, however, the author explains how professional assumptions about child sexual abuse changed, in large part due to the work of child-protection advocates and feminists such as Judith Herman and Susan Brownmiller, who pushed for the end of victim-blaming. By the 1980s and 1990s, sexual abuse was framed as a traumatic event and conceptualized as a form of post-traumatic stress disorder, in large part to protect victims and reclaim the validity of their abuse. In chapters four and five, Clancy sets out to answer the two questions underpinning the book: why does the trauma myth damage victims? --The Admins (talk) 10:06, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

All I found is that Herman published a lot later, and Brownmiller was an anti-rape feminist of the early 70s, and held media posts in the 60s, which may have allowed her to exert some influence... --The Admins (talk) 10:25, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Robert Bonin

Maybe we should profile him, or the scandal surrounding him. Or at least add it to Boston-Boise affair. [3]. --The Admins (talk) 21:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

This may be of interest

[4] --The Admins (talk) 18:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Gennadium B. Derjágin

http://samlib.ru/g/galaburda_k_e/materialsaboutgennadiumderjaginhtm.shtml

https://ru-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%8F%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BD,_%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

May be worth a short bio. Guy on Yesmap News room has posted a load of links (in Russian) suggesting he has been involved in a sex scandal (consensual) with a boy. --The Admins (talk) 23:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Jacques Dugué

Ever heard of him? Mentioned in the De Orio thesis mentioned in my Lloyd Martin article. --The Admins (talk) 17:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Never heard of him. But that doesn't mean we can't find out more! :p In fairness, I'd not heard of any of the Frenchmen associated with the 2 French groups GRED or CRIES.--Prue (talk) 15:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Jacques_Dugu%C3%A9 --The Admins (talk) 23:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Alim Khan

A significant political figure of last century who had a harem of 200 boys! May interest you - [5] [6] --The Admins (talk) 18:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, have just had a look and will read the 1st in more detail later. I wonder if we should do a general page about the practice of dancing boys in history? I am fairly sure it's been common in a lot of now-western societies? Perhaps we can mention it w/ a brief quote / quotes on the non western intergen page, and link out to other info? But yes, defo interesting, and Alim Khan sounds like someone we can make a brief page on...--Prue (talk) 15:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Pederasty in Islam details most of this, but I agree we need separate pages. We need a section on Islam in Youth-Adult Marriage. --The Admins (talk) 20:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Wanted Article Proposal

Hi Prue, interested in writing an article for what's currently at the top of the Most Wanted Pages. It would be very short, just a matter of their standard boiler-plate contact info. This would be a double-plus-discretion issue; it goes without saying that I would want to run it by you . . . and them . . . before posting anything, even a draft. One doesn't want to give offense. Do you have an email to where we could discuss the early drafts privately? Didaskalosmrm (talk) 23:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure it needs or ought to be. But if one is made of said organization, sure, it should be "standard boiler-plate contact info" as you say. As for my email, if you ask Strat he'll be able to send you my email. Best not to post these things publicly cuz' it gets you lots of spam. On another note, after reading your bio, I have a suggestion for you: you know a lot about, have read or have a copy of "A Defence of Uranian Love"? There was apparently a re-print edition which Bill Percy was involved in, and I have seen a lot of older texts being re-vamped (which is great) - but this one I couldn't find... [There's an entry here but if download works I'd have to see... https://annas-archive.org/md5/e84460225299fdb97ab6551d1b8c5b25 ]. Anyway, the internet could do w/ a public page about this book and it sounds like you'd be ideal to do that :) Perhaps experiment w/ a page about the book. A bit of bio on the author (or just link to an external Wiki about him), and some summarizing / choice quotes (from Kaylor, Percy, Warren) you think others' would benefit from seeing. I think this would be a good historical service to have a go at. Good to have you on board! --Prue (talk) 22:04, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Camaron de la Isla

This may be someone who we could add.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camar%C3%B3n_de_la_Isla --The Admins (talk) 19:09, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

[7] --The Admins (talk) 10:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Done! :p Camarón de la Isla. And ooo, I got a mention on BC! Funny enough, I was literally talking to someone today about Warren's book, so I will see if I can get a PDF copy of the reprint edition. I'd like to see what Percy and Kaylor had to say about the book. Will be back laters to do a brief page about Warren and the book. :) --Prue (talk) 10:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Peter Singer

[8] --The Admins (talk) 11:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Peter Melzer

I have found an image of the late Peter Melzer (Mr. Melzer in Chickenhawk), who just passed away. We can probably wait for Manstuprator on BoyChat to publish his research before compiling the definitive profile of Melzer.

Here is his post: [9] --The Admins (talk) 13:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Awesome. And a very well written, summarized account of this guy from Manstuprator. Will look into it more, see what I see / discover, and produce something in the next few days. Seems like the community is very interested in this and wants a good article / send-off asap. I will work on something :) ... --Prue (talk) 10:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Vaush

There have been recent controversies centering on his probable interest in drawn child erotica and attempts to construct convoluted defenses in response videos. I'm guessing it will have made some "news" sites. --JohnHolt (talk) 20:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Ohh, I've been a fan since his channel started and I've been so disappointed by how boring his channel has become, and how he has unfortunately backed himself into a corner w/ his constant performative anti-pedo shtick, whilst still privately engaging with anime and hentai which often uses highschoolers / teens and is therefore implicitly underage (even if they have very well developed bodies!). I've been following the drama in disappointment after seeing the ray of reason / hope that was the Mamamax drama. So yes, thanks for highlighting it, I'll update the page for Vaush to reflect this most recent controversy. :) Haven't forgotten about Melzer as well!... --Prue (talk) 03:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Two high-quality papers on innocence

During my very short review of literature on childhood innocence, I found two potentially useful papers that might contain further information at a depth you are able to read to:

https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.2307/1394897

https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/0907568218811484 --The Admins (talk) 00:02, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. I have a whole folder on the topic. There's an academic who's written a lot of thoughtful stuff on childhood innocence, Kerry H. Robinson. She did a whole book on the topic: http://library.lol/main/054393EF92C18BCA54273CC66CD9E393 Would you like me to add quotes to a particular page? Also, hope you're doing well(?), and hope you're enjoying the updates of rare material lately (isn't it so cool, the scan of Shively's book dedicated to Reeves)!--Prue (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that definitely needs to be mentioned in the article. Joe Rogan and James Lindsay were ripping into the idea that we have academics who now question childhood innocence and how it is applied across cultures. So that is clearly a topic we need to seize upon. --The Admins (talk) 19:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Did you want me to add to this article: https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Childhood_Innocence ?? Just checking :) --Prue (talk) 19:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

If I recall, I read the abstracts/conclusions and added little bits to that article, and Safeguarding. Just wondering if there is anything else in there. I'm currently identifying as a robot, so you will not see the changes I have been making in the standard Recentchanges. There's a way of changing that to include bots. --The Admins (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Percy Wiki

Pretty sure Percy's Wiki will not come back online... as you know, Percy is sadly dead. I finished copying all of the info on Thorstad a while ago, and it was useful in the chronological archive. I'm sure they have info on other scholars and activists (far from all of the listed, it is predominantly a gay site that leads towards pederasty) that would be useful in building profiles and adding to the archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200924025231/http://williamapercy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Scholars_and_Activists --The Admins (talk) 02:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Fantastic. And yes, I would continue under the assumption that Percy Wiki will never be back online; it hasn't happened by now, so it seems unlikely to me. There's definitely gonna be some rare and lesser known names on the Wiki that we could (and probably should) work to keep alive, have at least some backup record for. Will take a lookie :p --Prue (talk) 20:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Left wing

This might be your instinct too, but if there are plans to create an article on left wing thinkers, the best option is probably to rename and expand communism. --The Admins (talk) 01:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Ruth Ginsburg

Thread on her that may be of interest. --The Admins (talk) 01:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)